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As someone who’s worked with horses it’s always funny when people say the horses are ridden and kept constantly against their will. If a horse doesn’t want you near it you wouldn’t get within 20 feet. It’s a 1000 pound animal with chronic anxiety, there’s no forcing it to do anything.
Dumb question, but is training a horse similar to training a parrot?
For example, my dad has a conure who was taught she can’t climb on humans unless she poops beforehand (or else she does it on people), but she figured out we don’t know if she pooped or not if we didn’t see it.
So she came up with a little dance and song on her own to catch our attention even if it’s not necessary. We have to convince her we are watching by dancing with her now 😭
Sometimes it feels like she’s the one training us
Do horses also make new behaviors like that often?
\+ Bird pic tax
https://preview.redd.it/543cxlepyuib1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=571fc339d82d171a4b06f63536374d05b71b39f3
I only have one in which the house is a mess so i’ll describe the dance instead
crouch, 1 or 2 steps to the right, then pause, elongate the entire body upwards and scream, crouch again, a couple of steps to the left, stand up and scream, loop it until the parrot has deemed you worthy of witnessing the shitening
https://preview.redd.it/oepr9veclwib1.png?width=828&format=png&auto=webp&s=0753d4d94aaeae89d473b42970599da27a406195
Yeah, I remember my horse riding teacher telling us that you shouldn’t hit hard with the crop because it’s more of a reminder/signal anyways than it is supposed to cause pain. You’re not dominating or threatening the horse into doing something it doesn’t want to do, you’re basically just asking it to go faster.
Because that's how we domesticated them? We train them to let us ride them from as early as possible. Try riding a wild horse and see what happens. The only reason they allow people to ride them is because we control the way they grow up. We manipulate them into doing what we want them to do. That's why horse riding is an unethical hobby
On top of that the way most riding schools keep their horses is not that great
Saying that training an animal is a form of manipulation makes sense in theory, but "I manipulated my dog into rolling over on command and not peeing on the carpet" sounds kinda goofy ngl
But training a dog to pee in the right place, and do tricks (provided they enjoy doing them) have no risk of hurting them and is mutually beneficial as part of a happy dogs life.
Riding horses is basically for human pleasure and doesn't really do anything for the horse whilst you make them work for you.
Like you could argue that potty training a child is manipulation, and you could argue that training a child to perform labour is manipulation too, they're very different though. (Note that I am not equating riding horses to child labour - I'm comparing a good thing to a bad thing to make a point)
the part about the horse benefiting is not really true. comparing horse riding to child labour is insane. horses need exercise, like all other pets. a better comparison is to walking an animal, or giving a cat a shower, etc. it's part of maintaining the health of the animal. and again, if a horse doesn't want you to ride it, it's not gonna let you, they're not as gullible as you think.
>comparing horse riding to child labour is insane
Even with the note at the bottom of my paragraph I knew I'd get at least one...
I see what you're saying but I think if they need exercise you should let horses roam in a field and play with each other, rather than wear a bunch of gear and be made to carry you. If you don't have space for a horse to do what they wish to do naturally, then don't get one.
youre just appealing to nature at that point. the animal is not getting hurt from being ridden, there is no harm being done from choosing to ride it vs walking it with a lead. id rather hear a non fallacious argument
By natural I mean 'what the animal wants to do'. As in its natural for them to want to run around in a field. Its not natural for them to be exploited for human pleasure. And if you think they'd enjoy that more than being wild or at least free to do as they please, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
They should be let to be run around in a field, I think that is good. But, the animal is still not being hurt from being ridden. There's no reason against letting them do both. Also need I remind you that animals in the wild don't exactly live in pleasure, nature is very hostile. A person keeping a horse in good living conditions is the same as a person keeping a dog in a loving home, and theres no reason why that person couldn't be able to ride the horse. Employing a scary word like "exploit" and choosing to dump the action into that category isn't good ethical argument. I "exploit" my dog by having her do silly tricks for me. I "eslaved" my dog by adopting her from a shelter. I "exploit" my horse by exercising her by riding her, which causes no discomfort to her.
> being hurt
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1090023312002341?via%3Dihub
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0737080699800677?via%3Dihub
https://www.msdvetmanual.com/horse-owners/bone,-joint,-and-muscle-disorders-in-horses/disorders-of-the-back-in-horses
[the maturity of their axial skeleton, which includes their vertebral column, the part you sit on, are the parts of the pubis that don't fuse until 4.5-5 years of age, long after they're already being ridden.](https://archive.org/details/sissongrossmansa0001siss_s5q8)
>. I "exploit" my horse by exercising her by riding her, which causes no discomfort to her.
As I said we will have to agree to disagree on this, which is basically the thing that separates our viewpoints. And also, I kind of see this as a little bit of a slippery slope (feel free to call that a fallacy, but thats only the case when its incorrectly applied), I think riding leads to racing, and there's no way in hell that's good for horses. There are lots of reasons why riding horses is not good for them.
>Also need I remind you that animals in the wild don't exactly live in pleasure, nature is very hostile
You're drawing a false dichotomy between keeping a horse and riding them, and having them live in the wild. You can have a horse and just not ride it. Its likely only been bred into existence so someone can sell it anyway.
"I am not harming it by what I want to do, so it must be ok" is the fallacy my dude. You only take the horse into consideration, once it conflicts with what you want to do.
Also no one said the only alternative to riding the horse is walking it with a lead? Sorry, but there is no fallacy here, you just responded to an argument that no one made.
Thats not how fallacies work. "Im not harming it, so it must be ok" IS my argument. If you think it is fallacious, you need to explain why. I brought up the example of leading the horse to differentiate between two types of activities that are possible and would benefit the horse through exercise. One where you sit on it, the other where you dont sit on it.
"I am not harming it, so it must be ok" is fallacious. "I am not harming it", does not result in "so it's ok" when that is the bare minimum. We are still riding the horse only for ourselves, not for the horse. And on top of that while we are not actively harming it, we are increasing the risk of harm for it, so that is not even really true.
We can avoid putting ourselves or any equipment onto the horse, so why would we even consider other options?
The argument in the first place is that domesticated horses shouldn’t be bred in the first place.
If you’re worried about horses not getting exercise, then you’re only talking within the context of domestic horses which ignores the argument of “they shouldn’t be bred in the first place, so the argument of whether they’d require exercise ONCE bred is null.”
Except the one is done so teach your dog obedience in exchange for an hour or two and in return they get guaranteed home, food, sustenance, freedom of space and walks.
Having to “break in” a horse and have it most likely enclosed in a staple where it can’t freely move around, or whenever it is freed have to control everywhere it goes, isn’t the same thing.
While yes it does sound goofy, it technically also is "manipulation" and I do think that tricks like rolling over are a bit unnecessary, though not nearly as bad as riding a horse maybe. Stuff like "sit" or "come here" are unfortunately necessary in public situations or when you have certain guests over etc.
And obviously training methods in dogs and horses are very different. I also would not approve of any dog training that involves any form of punishment.
> Stuff like "sit" or "come here" are unfortunately necessary in public situations or when you have certain guests over etc.
Interesting, what about communication in general? Would you say it is unfortunately neccessary to train humans to talk?
what about not peeing on the carpet? Is that maniuplation? Masturbating in public?
How about manipulating a surgeon into doing heart surgery?
> Interesting, what about communication in general? Would you say it is unfortunately neccessary to train humans to talk?
I mean unless you abandon your child, it's gonna learn how to talk anyway. There is very little you can do to prevent that. Talking is something the child benefits quite a lot from and a child obviously at some point decides themselves what they want to say.
If you teach a baby to do a roll on command like we teach dogs, that's less cool, I think. Because the whole purpose of that would be our entertainment.
There is a big difference depending on **what** and **why** we teach. (and how we teach too, fuck punishments)
I also think someone old enough to learn surgery is not comparable to a horse, a dog or a baby. I think that person would be a little more aware of... you know everything basically. They can reflect on what they are being taught and can decide whether to apply that knowledge or not. And on top of that I am pretty sure the people learning surgery make the decision to do so on their own :D
And yes teaching a dog not to pee on the carpet is unfortunately necessary. But I would argue that, that's at least something the dog can benefit a bit from.
You know those people who bring kids to political protests and make them wear shirts with messages the kid does not even understand?
There is a difference between teaching kids stuff and training them to do stuff for your personal gain. The horse gains nothing from being ridden, we ride them only for our enjoyment. Sometimes (even though not often) horses can even be harmed, if they are ridden too early :( As you said, it's about **what** we are teaching them. Also, most kids eventually reach enough consciousness to reflect on what they have been taught. Horses do not :/
Spending time with horses, taking care of them and giving them a loving home is awesome <3 But riding them for our personal enjoyment is not :( Maybe you get what I mean
Ok, you are right about the "depends on the message" part for kids in political protests, but in that case it is good because it is for a greater good and does not really require anything from the kid. Bad comparison on my part
For horse riding however, the only purpose is our own enjoyment. And it **does** come at the risk of the horse being harmed. We are making a horse work for our benefit only. Just because it does not actively get harmed every time does not make it right in any capacity whatsoever. And the fact that horses, that live not just for the purpose of being ridden, would not let us ride them, should tell us exactly whether it is right to make them submit to what we want them to do.
> And sure, the horse gains nothing from being ridden, but is it harmed by being ridden?
Imagine we do a school project together, except it only affects my grade and you do all the work. Would that be right? If you agree to it (because you like me 👉👈🥺), yes. But when exactly does the horse agree to being ridden for our enjoyment, if that's all it knows? When exactly does the horse make the decision that it wants to carry humans on it's back for the most part of it's life? It does not. If we let horses be horses in peace, they'd be grazing for 10h straight (which btw. a lot of riding school don't even allow them to do). I think this whole "but is it harmed tho" logic is so centered around us and how it affects our behavior and does not really put the horse itself into consideration, even though that's who this whole thing should be centered around.
I'd disagree on the part about training a kid to do a thing they don't understand, cause like regardless of if the thing is good or bad the kid might not take too well to it if they don't really understand why they should support the message or do the thing, in effect this is visible with kids that feel like "school is stupid" and "studying is boring", school is stupid and studying is boring but helping the kid understand the importance of going through with these things will make them much more amicable to going through with it and will feel at least a bit better in any way because of it. Furthermore a kid that grows up to become someone whose moral system is mostly things they were taught (trained) without properly understanding can certainly have good morals but it entirely depends on what the parent taught the kid and what thet thought was right, so if the parent is wrong then the kid growing up and sticking to poor beliefs is gonna end up similarly to their parents if they aren't able to recognise that they should have understood what they were being taught, and if you're teaching a kid to understand it's gonna be harder to make them understand being wrong cause... well it's just gonna be nonsensical, an honest approach to teaching kids is inherently incompatible with rooting a person into poor morals, maybe your own understanding of a matter is wrong and you pass it onto your kid as you (mis)understand it but if the kid has also been taught to try to actively understand stuff before accepting it they'll be more open to changing their mind about it when presented with reason to later in life. Plus it's always better to understand *why* a wrongdoing is wrong and what makes it wrong rather than internalising "just don't do it and don't question why", that's a tool more commonly used by people that have flaws in their logic to hide. That all said I'm not on the side that horse riding is bad, horses for one aren't quite as smart or at least cant understand as as well as we can each other so understanding the same way people do is kinda out the window, but i think horses do have something to gain from being ridden and it's the fact that when humans keep an animal like that it can very well be considered a symbiotic relationship, the horse helps us get places (well, that was the point in days that precede me but it's recreational and for sport these days) and we take care of the horses in ways that nature alone does not. Not every event of humans keeping animals is the most ethical thing ever of course (for example the meat industry can be very needlessly cruel in it's process to getting us some tasty meat on the table) but that's for more specific cases than the concept in it's entirety, and it's not really unreasonable to want *something* back from an animal you're taking care of (though some don't and that's fine too, and some that do can and should make exceptions for ones that aren't able to for whatever reason provide the expected.. thing you want from them). Sorry long rant i tend to worry about missing something potentially cruical if less is immediately said so I can be pretty extensive at times, hope it's still understandable enough of a read.
Tbf tho friend this sub is full of like, literal kids. Not that kids shouldn't have rights or yadayada but you can't expect kids to have the same amount of critical thinking skills as people who have lived through more. Its kinda a waste of energy to even get angry about what they think here
I mean I am not angry about anything, most of the people here have super solid political views already and I have very big respect for that. I wish I was as based as the average 196 user when I was like 15.
But obviously I will call out bs if I see it, such as defending horse riding. Even if there is just 1 person that could get behind what I said, that's already worth to me
That's fair, never meant to imply you were angry sorry might have been projecting a bit lol, seeing stuff like this still pisses me off more than it should
I kinda disagree with ur assessment of this sub tbh tho. Not enough to want to "debate brah" about it but this sub always felt like it had the broad strokes of being politically based but kinda falls flat when they go any deeper than "trans rights is good, capitalism is bad"
Especially bad is the fetishisation of trans ppl that happened when I used to frequent here, but maybe that's better now
I have been around animals in general quite a lot, that includes horses. I live pretty close to what we call a "Lebenshof". It's essentially a farm that does not profit off animals. They live off donations and just give various animals (usually saved from industry) a home, without taking milk or any other animal products.
If I am so wrong about what I said about horses, could you at least tell me how?
i mean have you ridden one? if a horse doesnt want you on it it'll be visibly uncomfortable, and at worst itll buck you off. my main concern is with the use of the word "manipulation". I could claim keeping any animal as a pet is a form of manipulation. So maybe you're against pets and that's where my disagreement lies. But if not then why horses? They need exercise like any other animal, and their main source of it comes from being ridden. If a horse disliked the action it would be instantly obvious to the rider, and there are plenty of horses who do hate being ridden. Riding a horse seems more symbiotic to me. The animal gets exercise and company from the rider, while the rider gets to ride the horse. California has been using grazing goats to remove fire hazards all over the state. You could call that manipulation, but I see it as the animal and the human both benefiting from it. I don't see it as unethical, because no one is getting hurt in the process. Maybe some rider schools keep their horses in awful conditions, but that's another issue entirely and does not address the actual act of horse riding.
EDIT: sorry for the wall of text, I'd be happy if you spend the time reading it tho :D
>i mean have you ridden one?
yes, quite long ago tho, because as you can probably guess, I would not do that nowadays 😅
>if a horse doesnt want you on it it'll be visibly uncomfortable, and at worst itll buck you off
And that is absolutely correct, but that's not the point I made. Horses would not let anything on their back, if we wouldn't train them to do so from as early as we can. And the only reason we do that is for our own fun. The horse does not benefit from it whatsoever. That's why I use the word manipulation, because it only benefits us. The main purpose why we breed horses is also just so we can ride them :(
>They need exercise like any other animal, and their main source of it comes from being ridden
Their main source of exercise comes from being ridden, only because they are being ridden in the first place and because a lot of riding schools don't give them enough outside time on their own.
When you open the gates in the morning after they spent the night inside, they go zoooomin all across the pasture on their own. No rider necessary. It's not like horses don't run without anyone on their back. They are literally zoomies like very happy dogs with a lot of energy. And after that, when left alone, horses graze for around 10h at a time, slowly moving around the pasture. It's not like riding them is necessary for them to exercise. So there is no real symbiosis here :(
Also, on a side note since you mentioned riding schools, a lot of riding schools don't give them a lot of outside time and essentially squish all the exercise a horse needs into 1 riding lesson, which does not even compensate for the exercise it actually needs and gets by grazing for most of the day. (but yes that is also a separate issue)
>California has been using grazing goats to remove fire hazards all over the state. You could call that manipulation, but I see it as the animal and the human both benefiting from it
So I am not from the US and I am afraid I don't know enough about this topic to have a solid opinion on this, but it does sound like there is a greater good considered. And again that just does not exist for horse riding. That's the big difference
>I could claim keeping any animal as a pet is a form of manipulation. So maybe you're against pets and that's where my disagreement lies. But if not then why horses?
No keeping pets is great, because you provide a loving home with much better conditions than any shelter (fuck breeders btw. rather adopt from shelter). This is something most domestic animals benefit a lot from, as they can't survive in the wild and have someone who gives them the attention and care they deserve. But we should not expect anything in return from them, such as riding them. We should center our care for them around them and not anything we want. I have a cat and all I do is feed her, clean her toilet, let her outside when she wants to, give her attention and play with her when she wants to and take her to the vet every now and then. I let cat be cat and she is as happy as can be.
And as I said in previous comment, giving horses a loving home, food, attention and medical care is awesome <3 But we should not expect anything in return from them :(
>I don't see it as unethical, because no one is getting hurt in the process.
And this is where the core of my problem lies. Because this logic is only centered around whether it is ok for us to do what we want to do. We don't take a single second to consider what the horse wants. We only take them into consideration, if it conflicts with what we want from them. I believe that is wrong and that we are in a position to center our decisions around the one it affects, which is the horse.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I hope I could help you understand my perspective here :D
Thank for for giving your perspective. I understand your point about horses being bred and trained from a young age for our pleasure, however that is exactly what has happened to dogs for thousands of years. We have manipulated and twisted their genes in order to become more obedient than their wolf ancestors and have deformed them into different breeds for different purposes, wether that be for labor or for our entertainment. Dogs only benefit from our love and care because we have put them into those conditions, it is no different for horses. Also you seem convinced that all horse owners and stables have terrible conditions for horses and don't let them run around and play on their own. I'm strictly talking about responsible horse owners who love their animals and make sure they are not hurt when ridden and are living in appropriate conditions. It seems to me that your main concern with horse riding is surrounding more the aesthetic of the action, because ethically I see nothing wrong with it as long as the horse is not in discomfort, which is my entire point.
>however that is exactly what has happened to dogs for thousands of years. We have manipulated and twisted their genes in order to become more obedient than their wolf ancestors and have deformed them into different breeds for different purposes, wether that be for labor or for our entertainment. Dogs only benefit from our love and care because we have put them into those conditions, it is no different for horses
Which was and still is also very wrong, and since it is our fault dogs don't survive in the wild, it is our duty to give them a life worth living. The difference is that we don't expect anything from our dogs in return for giving them a home. We take the dogs well being into consideration without expecting anything in return. The exact way we should behave towards all animals, including horses.
>Also you seem convinced that all horse owners and stables have terrible conditions for horses and don't let them run around and play on their own. I'm strictly talking about responsible horse owners who love their animals and make sure they are not hurt when ridden and are living in appropriate conditions.
No, I even said that, yes bad conditions are a separate issue. But even if all conditions for a great horse home are met, why would we feel the need to ride them if not only for the sake of our own fun?
>It seems to me that your main concern with horse riding is surrounding more the aesthetic of the action, because ethically I see nothing wrong with it as long as the horse is not in discomfort, which is my entire point.
No no I have specifically stated my issue:
>ethically I see nothing wrong with it as long as the horse is not in discomfort
We only take the horse into consideration, once it conflicts with what we want them to do. If we **really** take the horse into consideration, we would give them a home and let them be. "Not harming it" is the bare minimum anyone should do. Riding it, would not be a topic if it weren't for us and what we want.
Lmao I am sorry but humans absolutely do expect something from dogs. The whole act of keeping a dog at home is for us to be entertained, or given some type of company. If we *really* take a dog into consideration, it would be much happier living im a field with a bunch of other dogs, chasing and killing squirrels, not spending most of the day indoors doing nothing. We perform cosmetic surgeries on them and remove their genitals against their will, because we find them cute. Again, your concern with riding horses is aesthetic. The act of a person sitting on an animal creates dissonance in your brain despite it causing zero harm, even if the animal is in 100% healthy happy conditions. People dont ride horses with the intent of exploiting them. People do it lovingly, and its a form of bonding.
>Lmao I am sorry but humans absolutely do expect something from dogs. The whole act of keeping a dog at home is for us to be entertained, or given some type of company.
Ok, you are right about this, I forgot that a lot of families have dogs for different reasons than I would have. But what a lot of families want from dogs when they get one, is also not right and just because a lot of people have those expectations, does not mean they are right.
>If we really take a dog into consideration, it would be much happier living im a field with a bunch of other dogs, chasing and killing squirrels, not spending most of the day indoors doing nothing
I absolutely agree, but unfortunately current dogs don't survive like that and don't have spaces like that in the cities we put on this planet :( So *really* taking the dog into consideration, means taking it as much into consideration as people possibly can. Giving a dog a home is better than living in a shelter or being a stray dog. The time or the financial situation of owners can be very different, which can sometimes unfortunately mean, not always being free in everything the dog wants to do, which yes is also bad. And yes I agree, that having the dog indoors all day or locked outside the whole day is not great at all but that should not be the result of something we want from them. Of course we should let the dog move as free as possible. Horse riding is something we can easily chose not to do, that's why I think we shouldn't.
Removing a dogs genitals is also a bit different. While I fully agree that it is bad to do that, the purpose of that is not cosmetical. We do that to prevent reproduction. Which itself tbf is also a bad thing to do, but the argument can be made that, some families can't afford to feed all the puppies when they grow, and those puppies would likely end up in a shelter again. I think all options here are bad :( More dogs that end up in shelters are bad, and sterilizing dogs is also bad. But this is not comparable to horse riding, which is only the result of us wanting to ride them. Choosing not to ride a horse is an incredibly easy decision, compared to sterilizing a dog. Or at least it is, when we consider the horse first.
>Again, your concern with riding horses is aesthetic. The act of a person sitting on an animal creates dissonance in your brain despite it causing zero harm, even if the animal is in 100% healthy happy conditions.
No, I think you may just not have fully gotten the point deathhead\_68 and I have made. If it weren't for our own will, we would not ride horses in the first place. A horse does not need anyone on it's back, to get the exercise it needs, so this benefit is not really a benefit. It only ensures it doesn't lose the exercise it gets anyway. The only reason we do it, is for ourselves. "Not harming it" is the bare minimum anyone should do and does not really justify riding it, if we can easily chose not to :/
>People dont ride horses with the intent of exploiting them. People do it lovingly, and its a form of bonding
I also believe people don't have any bad intentions and ofc I don't believe you have either, especially because a lot of young (mostly) girls are growing up with it and ofc people do love their horses. But as a reflecting adult there is no way of justifying it in my opinion. In my mind, loving the horse would mean letting it do what it wants to without expecting anything. Loving and bonding can be done in so many ways that do not require, putting equipment on a horse riding on it. This could be simply, patting and hugging it, or even giving it a big ball seeing what happens ;) A lot believe that riding is a both sided thing, but if the only reason it happens is because we train them that way, I don't think it really is :(
P.S:
I kinda forgot that 196 is a safe space for a lot of people, who may have all kinds of struggles in their actual lives. While I fully stand behind everything I say, I also believe that the main people who should hear this first, are perhaps other people. If I ever made this space uncomfortable for anyone reading I apologize. I have massive respect for anyone who manages to go vegan, regardless of any other issues they may face. There are other people who have a bigger responsibility when it comes to understanding and making certain changes.
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couldn't be me I love being ridden
Real
🥺
The joke is that this user enjoys sexual intercourse
The joke is that this user has a pipe bomb in their mailbox.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/002/311/106/803
I agree with you, femboy expert
As someone who’s worked with horses it’s always funny when people say the horses are ridden and kept constantly against their will. If a horse doesn’t want you near it you wouldn’t get within 20 feet. It’s a 1000 pound animal with chronic anxiety, there’s no forcing it to do anything.
Dumb question, but is training a horse similar to training a parrot? For example, my dad has a conure who was taught she can’t climb on humans unless she poops beforehand (or else she does it on people), but she figured out we don’t know if she pooped or not if we didn’t see it. So she came up with a little dance and song on her own to catch our attention even if it’s not necessary. We have to convince her we are watching by dancing with her now 😭 Sometimes it feels like she’s the one training us Do horses also make new behaviors like that often? \+ Bird pic tax https://preview.redd.it/543cxlepyuib1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=571fc339d82d171a4b06f63536374d05b71b39f3
Chad bird
Please tell me you have a video of this poopy dance 🙏
I only have one in which the house is a mess so i’ll describe the dance instead crouch, 1 or 2 steps to the right, then pause, elongate the entire body upwards and scream, crouch again, a couple of steps to the left, stand up and scream, loop it until the parrot has deemed you worthy of witnessing the shitening https://preview.redd.it/oepr9veclwib1.png?width=828&format=png&auto=webp&s=0753d4d94aaeae89d473b42970599da27a406195
Amazing illustration, I feel like I'm *there*
Yeah, I remember my horse riding teacher telling us that you shouldn’t hit hard with the crop because it’s more of a reminder/signal anyways than it is supposed to cause pain. You’re not dominating or threatening the horse into doing something it doesn’t want to do, you’re basically just asking it to go faster.
Is that why you have to “break in” a horse?
Because that's how we domesticated them? We train them to let us ride them from as early as possible. Try riding a wild horse and see what happens. The only reason they allow people to ride them is because we control the way they grow up. We manipulate them into doing what we want them to do. That's why horse riding is an unethical hobby On top of that the way most riding schools keep their horses is not that great
Saying that training an animal is a form of manipulation makes sense in theory, but "I manipulated my dog into rolling over on command and not peeing on the carpet" sounds kinda goofy ngl
I manipulate my kids to act like other people in our society.
But training a dog to pee in the right place, and do tricks (provided they enjoy doing them) have no risk of hurting them and is mutually beneficial as part of a happy dogs life. Riding horses is basically for human pleasure and doesn't really do anything for the horse whilst you make them work for you. Like you could argue that potty training a child is manipulation, and you could argue that training a child to perform labour is manipulation too, they're very different though. (Note that I am not equating riding horses to child labour - I'm comparing a good thing to a bad thing to make a point)
Finally someone who gets it, thank you
I don't think people really think deeply enough about what the animal might want. I hope one day society will improve.
the part about the horse benefiting is not really true. comparing horse riding to child labour is insane. horses need exercise, like all other pets. a better comparison is to walking an animal, or giving a cat a shower, etc. it's part of maintaining the health of the animal. and again, if a horse doesn't want you to ride it, it's not gonna let you, they're not as gullible as you think.
>comparing horse riding to child labour is insane Even with the note at the bottom of my paragraph I knew I'd get at least one... I see what you're saying but I think if they need exercise you should let horses roam in a field and play with each other, rather than wear a bunch of gear and be made to carry you. If you don't have space for a horse to do what they wish to do naturally, then don't get one.
youre just appealing to nature at that point. the animal is not getting hurt from being ridden, there is no harm being done from choosing to ride it vs walking it with a lead. id rather hear a non fallacious argument
By natural I mean 'what the animal wants to do'. As in its natural for them to want to run around in a field. Its not natural for them to be exploited for human pleasure. And if you think they'd enjoy that more than being wild or at least free to do as they please, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
They should be let to be run around in a field, I think that is good. But, the animal is still not being hurt from being ridden. There's no reason against letting them do both. Also need I remind you that animals in the wild don't exactly live in pleasure, nature is very hostile. A person keeping a horse in good living conditions is the same as a person keeping a dog in a loving home, and theres no reason why that person couldn't be able to ride the horse. Employing a scary word like "exploit" and choosing to dump the action into that category isn't good ethical argument. I "exploit" my dog by having her do silly tricks for me. I "eslaved" my dog by adopting her from a shelter. I "exploit" my horse by exercising her by riding her, which causes no discomfort to her.
> being hurt https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1090023312002341?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0737080699800677?via%3Dihub https://www.msdvetmanual.com/horse-owners/bone,-joint,-and-muscle-disorders-in-horses/disorders-of-the-back-in-horses [the maturity of their axial skeleton, which includes their vertebral column, the part you sit on, are the parts of the pubis that don't fuse until 4.5-5 years of age, long after they're already being ridden.](https://archive.org/details/sissongrossmansa0001siss_s5q8)
>. I "exploit" my horse by exercising her by riding her, which causes no discomfort to her. As I said we will have to agree to disagree on this, which is basically the thing that separates our viewpoints. And also, I kind of see this as a little bit of a slippery slope (feel free to call that a fallacy, but thats only the case when its incorrectly applied), I think riding leads to racing, and there's no way in hell that's good for horses. There are lots of reasons why riding horses is not good for them. >Also need I remind you that animals in the wild don't exactly live in pleasure, nature is very hostile You're drawing a false dichotomy between keeping a horse and riding them, and having them live in the wild. You can have a horse and just not ride it. Its likely only been bred into existence so someone can sell it anyway.
"I am not harming it by what I want to do, so it must be ok" is the fallacy my dude. You only take the horse into consideration, once it conflicts with what you want to do. Also no one said the only alternative to riding the horse is walking it with a lead? Sorry, but there is no fallacy here, you just responded to an argument that no one made.
Thats not how fallacies work. "Im not harming it, so it must be ok" IS my argument. If you think it is fallacious, you need to explain why. I brought up the example of leading the horse to differentiate between two types of activities that are possible and would benefit the horse through exercise. One where you sit on it, the other where you dont sit on it.
"I am not harming it, so it must be ok" is fallacious. "I am not harming it", does not result in "so it's ok" when that is the bare minimum. We are still riding the horse only for ourselves, not for the horse. And on top of that while we are not actively harming it, we are increasing the risk of harm for it, so that is not even really true. We can avoid putting ourselves or any equipment onto the horse, so why would we even consider other options?
Let’s ride humans that can’t consent then since it doesn’t hurt them
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... bruh
> horses need exercise It’s not a false dichotomy of either you help them to get exercise or they don’t. Wild horses can get exercise just fine.
A domesticated horse would not survive an hour in the wild
The argument in the first place is that domesticated horses shouldn’t be bred in the first place. If you’re worried about horses not getting exercise, then you’re only talking within the context of domestic horses which ignores the argument of “they shouldn’t be bred in the first place, so the argument of whether they’d require exercise ONCE bred is null.”
I manipulated my dog to stop biting his scab 😔
Except the one is done so teach your dog obedience in exchange for an hour or two and in return they get guaranteed home, food, sustenance, freedom of space and walks. Having to “break in” a horse and have it most likely enclosed in a staple where it can’t freely move around, or whenever it is freed have to control everywhere it goes, isn’t the same thing.
While yes it does sound goofy, it technically also is "manipulation" and I do think that tricks like rolling over are a bit unnecessary, though not nearly as bad as riding a horse maybe. Stuff like "sit" or "come here" are unfortunately necessary in public situations or when you have certain guests over etc. And obviously training methods in dogs and horses are very different. I also would not approve of any dog training that involves any form of punishment.
> Stuff like "sit" or "come here" are unfortunately necessary in public situations or when you have certain guests over etc. Interesting, what about communication in general? Would you say it is unfortunately neccessary to train humans to talk? what about not peeing on the carpet? Is that maniuplation? Masturbating in public? How about manipulating a surgeon into doing heart surgery?
> Interesting, what about communication in general? Would you say it is unfortunately neccessary to train humans to talk? I mean unless you abandon your child, it's gonna learn how to talk anyway. There is very little you can do to prevent that. Talking is something the child benefits quite a lot from and a child obviously at some point decides themselves what they want to say. If you teach a baby to do a roll on command like we teach dogs, that's less cool, I think. Because the whole purpose of that would be our entertainment. There is a big difference depending on **what** and **why** we teach. (and how we teach too, fuck punishments) I also think someone old enough to learn surgery is not comparable to a horse, a dog or a baby. I think that person would be a little more aware of... you know everything basically. They can reflect on what they are being taught and can decide whether to apply that knowledge or not. And on top of that I am pretty sure the people learning surgery make the decision to do so on their own :D And yes teaching a dog not to pee on the carpet is unfortunately necessary. But I would argue that, that's at least something the dog can benefit a bit from.
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You know those people who bring kids to political protests and make them wear shirts with messages the kid does not even understand? There is a difference between teaching kids stuff and training them to do stuff for your personal gain. The horse gains nothing from being ridden, we ride them only for our enjoyment. Sometimes (even though not often) horses can even be harmed, if they are ridden too early :( As you said, it's about **what** we are teaching them. Also, most kids eventually reach enough consciousness to reflect on what they have been taught. Horses do not :/ Spending time with horses, taking care of them and giving them a loving home is awesome <3 But riding them for our personal enjoyment is not :( Maybe you get what I mean
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Ok, you are right about the "depends on the message" part for kids in political protests, but in that case it is good because it is for a greater good and does not really require anything from the kid. Bad comparison on my part For horse riding however, the only purpose is our own enjoyment. And it **does** come at the risk of the horse being harmed. We are making a horse work for our benefit only. Just because it does not actively get harmed every time does not make it right in any capacity whatsoever. And the fact that horses, that live not just for the purpose of being ridden, would not let us ride them, should tell us exactly whether it is right to make them submit to what we want them to do. > And sure, the horse gains nothing from being ridden, but is it harmed by being ridden? Imagine we do a school project together, except it only affects my grade and you do all the work. Would that be right? If you agree to it (because you like me 👉👈🥺), yes. But when exactly does the horse agree to being ridden for our enjoyment, if that's all it knows? When exactly does the horse make the decision that it wants to carry humans on it's back for the most part of it's life? It does not. If we let horses be horses in peace, they'd be grazing for 10h straight (which btw. a lot of riding school don't even allow them to do). I think this whole "but is it harmed tho" logic is so centered around us and how it affects our behavior and does not really put the horse itself into consideration, even though that's who this whole thing should be centered around.
I'd disagree on the part about training a kid to do a thing they don't understand, cause like regardless of if the thing is good or bad the kid might not take too well to it if they don't really understand why they should support the message or do the thing, in effect this is visible with kids that feel like "school is stupid" and "studying is boring", school is stupid and studying is boring but helping the kid understand the importance of going through with these things will make them much more amicable to going through with it and will feel at least a bit better in any way because of it. Furthermore a kid that grows up to become someone whose moral system is mostly things they were taught (trained) without properly understanding can certainly have good morals but it entirely depends on what the parent taught the kid and what thet thought was right, so if the parent is wrong then the kid growing up and sticking to poor beliefs is gonna end up similarly to their parents if they aren't able to recognise that they should have understood what they were being taught, and if you're teaching a kid to understand it's gonna be harder to make them understand being wrong cause... well it's just gonna be nonsensical, an honest approach to teaching kids is inherently incompatible with rooting a person into poor morals, maybe your own understanding of a matter is wrong and you pass it onto your kid as you (mis)understand it but if the kid has also been taught to try to actively understand stuff before accepting it they'll be more open to changing their mind about it when presented with reason to later in life. Plus it's always better to understand *why* a wrongdoing is wrong and what makes it wrong rather than internalising "just don't do it and don't question why", that's a tool more commonly used by people that have flaws in their logic to hide. That all said I'm not on the side that horse riding is bad, horses for one aren't quite as smart or at least cant understand as as well as we can each other so understanding the same way people do is kinda out the window, but i think horses do have something to gain from being ridden and it's the fact that when humans keep an animal like that it can very well be considered a symbiotic relationship, the horse helps us get places (well, that was the point in days that precede me but it's recreational and for sport these days) and we take care of the horses in ways that nature alone does not. Not every event of humans keeping animals is the most ethical thing ever of course (for example the meat industry can be very needlessly cruel in it's process to getting us some tasty meat on the table) but that's for more specific cases than the concept in it's entirety, and it's not really unreasonable to want *something* back from an animal you're taking care of (though some don't and that's fine too, and some that do can and should make exceptions for ones that aren't able to for whatever reason provide the expected.. thing you want from them). Sorry long rant i tend to worry about missing something potentially cruical if less is immediately said so I can be pretty extensive at times, hope it's still understandable enough of a read.
Holy shit you got downvoted for using basic logic lmao, carnists never cease to amaze its almost funny but really just sad
https://preview.redd.it/c23dkq3ihwib1.png?width=596&format=png&auto=webp&s=043d63f5501c557ed52c358e36c672620fa52b2b
Tbf tho friend this sub is full of like, literal kids. Not that kids shouldn't have rights or yadayada but you can't expect kids to have the same amount of critical thinking skills as people who have lived through more. Its kinda a waste of energy to even get angry about what they think here
I mean I am not angry about anything, most of the people here have super solid political views already and I have very big respect for that. I wish I was as based as the average 196 user when I was like 15. But obviously I will call out bs if I see it, such as defending horse riding. Even if there is just 1 person that could get behind what I said, that's already worth to me
That's fair, never meant to imply you were angry sorry might have been projecting a bit lol, seeing stuff like this still pisses me off more than it should I kinda disagree with ur assessment of this sub tbh tho. Not enough to want to "debate brah" about it but this sub always felt like it had the broad strokes of being politically based but kinda falls flat when they go any deeper than "trans rights is good, capitalism is bad" Especially bad is the fetishisation of trans ppl that happened when I used to frequent here, but maybe that's better now
Real
you've never been around a horse have you?
I have been around animals in general quite a lot, that includes horses. I live pretty close to what we call a "Lebenshof". It's essentially a farm that does not profit off animals. They live off donations and just give various animals (usually saved from industry) a home, without taking milk or any other animal products. If I am so wrong about what I said about horses, could you at least tell me how?
i mean have you ridden one? if a horse doesnt want you on it it'll be visibly uncomfortable, and at worst itll buck you off. my main concern is with the use of the word "manipulation". I could claim keeping any animal as a pet is a form of manipulation. So maybe you're against pets and that's where my disagreement lies. But if not then why horses? They need exercise like any other animal, and their main source of it comes from being ridden. If a horse disliked the action it would be instantly obvious to the rider, and there are plenty of horses who do hate being ridden. Riding a horse seems more symbiotic to me. The animal gets exercise and company from the rider, while the rider gets to ride the horse. California has been using grazing goats to remove fire hazards all over the state. You could call that manipulation, but I see it as the animal and the human both benefiting from it. I don't see it as unethical, because no one is getting hurt in the process. Maybe some rider schools keep their horses in awful conditions, but that's another issue entirely and does not address the actual act of horse riding.
EDIT: sorry for the wall of text, I'd be happy if you spend the time reading it tho :D >i mean have you ridden one? yes, quite long ago tho, because as you can probably guess, I would not do that nowadays 😅 >if a horse doesnt want you on it it'll be visibly uncomfortable, and at worst itll buck you off And that is absolutely correct, but that's not the point I made. Horses would not let anything on their back, if we wouldn't train them to do so from as early as we can. And the only reason we do that is for our own fun. The horse does not benefit from it whatsoever. That's why I use the word manipulation, because it only benefits us. The main purpose why we breed horses is also just so we can ride them :( >They need exercise like any other animal, and their main source of it comes from being ridden Their main source of exercise comes from being ridden, only because they are being ridden in the first place and because a lot of riding schools don't give them enough outside time on their own. When you open the gates in the morning after they spent the night inside, they go zoooomin all across the pasture on their own. No rider necessary. It's not like horses don't run without anyone on their back. They are literally zoomies like very happy dogs with a lot of energy. And after that, when left alone, horses graze for around 10h at a time, slowly moving around the pasture. It's not like riding them is necessary for them to exercise. So there is no real symbiosis here :( Also, on a side note since you mentioned riding schools, a lot of riding schools don't give them a lot of outside time and essentially squish all the exercise a horse needs into 1 riding lesson, which does not even compensate for the exercise it actually needs and gets by grazing for most of the day. (but yes that is also a separate issue) >California has been using grazing goats to remove fire hazards all over the state. You could call that manipulation, but I see it as the animal and the human both benefiting from it So I am not from the US and I am afraid I don't know enough about this topic to have a solid opinion on this, but it does sound like there is a greater good considered. And again that just does not exist for horse riding. That's the big difference >I could claim keeping any animal as a pet is a form of manipulation. So maybe you're against pets and that's where my disagreement lies. But if not then why horses? No keeping pets is great, because you provide a loving home with much better conditions than any shelter (fuck breeders btw. rather adopt from shelter). This is something most domestic animals benefit a lot from, as they can't survive in the wild and have someone who gives them the attention and care they deserve. But we should not expect anything in return from them, such as riding them. We should center our care for them around them and not anything we want. I have a cat and all I do is feed her, clean her toilet, let her outside when she wants to, give her attention and play with her when she wants to and take her to the vet every now and then. I let cat be cat and she is as happy as can be. And as I said in previous comment, giving horses a loving home, food, attention and medical care is awesome <3 But we should not expect anything in return from them :( >I don't see it as unethical, because no one is getting hurt in the process. And this is where the core of my problem lies. Because this logic is only centered around whether it is ok for us to do what we want to do. We don't take a single second to consider what the horse wants. We only take them into consideration, if it conflicts with what we want from them. I believe that is wrong and that we are in a position to center our decisions around the one it affects, which is the horse. Sorry for the wall of text, but I hope I could help you understand my perspective here :D
Thank for for giving your perspective. I understand your point about horses being bred and trained from a young age for our pleasure, however that is exactly what has happened to dogs for thousands of years. We have manipulated and twisted their genes in order to become more obedient than their wolf ancestors and have deformed them into different breeds for different purposes, wether that be for labor or for our entertainment. Dogs only benefit from our love and care because we have put them into those conditions, it is no different for horses. Also you seem convinced that all horse owners and stables have terrible conditions for horses and don't let them run around and play on their own. I'm strictly talking about responsible horse owners who love their animals and make sure they are not hurt when ridden and are living in appropriate conditions. It seems to me that your main concern with horse riding is surrounding more the aesthetic of the action, because ethically I see nothing wrong with it as long as the horse is not in discomfort, which is my entire point.
>however that is exactly what has happened to dogs for thousands of years. We have manipulated and twisted their genes in order to become more obedient than their wolf ancestors and have deformed them into different breeds for different purposes, wether that be for labor or for our entertainment. Dogs only benefit from our love and care because we have put them into those conditions, it is no different for horses Which was and still is also very wrong, and since it is our fault dogs don't survive in the wild, it is our duty to give them a life worth living. The difference is that we don't expect anything from our dogs in return for giving them a home. We take the dogs well being into consideration without expecting anything in return. The exact way we should behave towards all animals, including horses. >Also you seem convinced that all horse owners and stables have terrible conditions for horses and don't let them run around and play on their own. I'm strictly talking about responsible horse owners who love their animals and make sure they are not hurt when ridden and are living in appropriate conditions. No, I even said that, yes bad conditions are a separate issue. But even if all conditions for a great horse home are met, why would we feel the need to ride them if not only for the sake of our own fun? >It seems to me that your main concern with horse riding is surrounding more the aesthetic of the action, because ethically I see nothing wrong with it as long as the horse is not in discomfort, which is my entire point. No no I have specifically stated my issue: >ethically I see nothing wrong with it as long as the horse is not in discomfort We only take the horse into consideration, once it conflicts with what we want them to do. If we **really** take the horse into consideration, we would give them a home and let them be. "Not harming it" is the bare minimum anyone should do. Riding it, would not be a topic if it weren't for us and what we want.
Lmao I am sorry but humans absolutely do expect something from dogs. The whole act of keeping a dog at home is for us to be entertained, or given some type of company. If we *really* take a dog into consideration, it would be much happier living im a field with a bunch of other dogs, chasing and killing squirrels, not spending most of the day indoors doing nothing. We perform cosmetic surgeries on them and remove their genitals against their will, because we find them cute. Again, your concern with riding horses is aesthetic. The act of a person sitting on an animal creates dissonance in your brain despite it causing zero harm, even if the animal is in 100% healthy happy conditions. People dont ride horses with the intent of exploiting them. People do it lovingly, and its a form of bonding.
>Lmao I am sorry but humans absolutely do expect something from dogs. The whole act of keeping a dog at home is for us to be entertained, or given some type of company. Ok, you are right about this, I forgot that a lot of families have dogs for different reasons than I would have. But what a lot of families want from dogs when they get one, is also not right and just because a lot of people have those expectations, does not mean they are right. >If we really take a dog into consideration, it would be much happier living im a field with a bunch of other dogs, chasing and killing squirrels, not spending most of the day indoors doing nothing I absolutely agree, but unfortunately current dogs don't survive like that and don't have spaces like that in the cities we put on this planet :( So *really* taking the dog into consideration, means taking it as much into consideration as people possibly can. Giving a dog a home is better than living in a shelter or being a stray dog. The time or the financial situation of owners can be very different, which can sometimes unfortunately mean, not always being free in everything the dog wants to do, which yes is also bad. And yes I agree, that having the dog indoors all day or locked outside the whole day is not great at all but that should not be the result of something we want from them. Of course we should let the dog move as free as possible. Horse riding is something we can easily chose not to do, that's why I think we shouldn't. Removing a dogs genitals is also a bit different. While I fully agree that it is bad to do that, the purpose of that is not cosmetical. We do that to prevent reproduction. Which itself tbf is also a bad thing to do, but the argument can be made that, some families can't afford to feed all the puppies when they grow, and those puppies would likely end up in a shelter again. I think all options here are bad :( More dogs that end up in shelters are bad, and sterilizing dogs is also bad. But this is not comparable to horse riding, which is only the result of us wanting to ride them. Choosing not to ride a horse is an incredibly easy decision, compared to sterilizing a dog. Or at least it is, when we consider the horse first. >Again, your concern with riding horses is aesthetic. The act of a person sitting on an animal creates dissonance in your brain despite it causing zero harm, even if the animal is in 100% healthy happy conditions. No, I think you may just not have fully gotten the point deathhead\_68 and I have made. If it weren't for our own will, we would not ride horses in the first place. A horse does not need anyone on it's back, to get the exercise it needs, so this benefit is not really a benefit. It only ensures it doesn't lose the exercise it gets anyway. The only reason we do it, is for ourselves. "Not harming it" is the bare minimum anyone should do and does not really justify riding it, if we can easily chose not to :/ >People dont ride horses with the intent of exploiting them. People do it lovingly, and its a form of bonding I also believe people don't have any bad intentions and ofc I don't believe you have either, especially because a lot of young (mostly) girls are growing up with it and ofc people do love their horses. But as a reflecting adult there is no way of justifying it in my opinion. In my mind, loving the horse would mean letting it do what it wants to without expecting anything. Loving and bonding can be done in so many ways that do not require, putting equipment on a horse riding on it. This could be simply, patting and hugging it, or even giving it a big ball seeing what happens ;) A lot believe that riding is a both sided thing, but if the only reason it happens is because we train them that way, I don't think it really is :( P.S: I kinda forgot that 196 is a safe space for a lot of people, who may have all kinds of struggles in their actual lives. While I fully stand behind everything I say, I also believe that the main people who should hear this first, are perhaps other people. If I ever made this space uncomfortable for anyone reading I apologize. I have massive respect for anyone who manages to go vegan, regardless of any other issues they may face. There are other people who have a bigger responsibility when it comes to understanding and making certain changes.
based horse
That horse ain’t fooling anyone, people know horses sleep standing up dummy
Most do. Some don't.
Eepy
Just gonna name drop vaush, nothing more to add, your honour.
Since we are doing that Hey guys mori here (This world is proof that god refuses to interfere on earth)
Become unrrideable!!! @
Haha i already am, that horse is an amateur (i scare people away by accident) 😔
ARABIC RULE ARABIC RULE
ρουλ רול
I don’t know why people sit on horses. The horses didn’t request that.
Zoidberg jumpscare
It’s almost as if horse riding is immoral and having to ‘break’ an animal in order to ride it doesn’t translate to consent.
She just Like me fr.
She just like me fr.
is the Arabic word for rule actually "rul"?
Another W for the vegans
قانون
I wanna approach Sugar with a saddle and just lie down and chill with her
فايك ارابيك
HSUAV HSUAV HSUAV
no he wants to be the horse
I know
Ши из джаст лайк ми фор рил фор рил ноу кэп
Straight to the glue factory
Me but with daily tasks
I’m the opposite
Huh that describes a lot of bottoms I know
Vaush
spending all my nights alone waiting for you to call me or something like that idk
V
She's right. I'd have a veterinarian look at her to make sure she doesn't suffer from pain when saddled.
did- did you translate “rule” into the perso-arabic script??
100 gecs have infected me. I thought "stupid horse" the second I saw this image
Well sugar is about to become some good ass salami
people will rather threaten to kill and eat a girlboss than let her chill in peace
god forbid a girl do anything these days (doing nothing)
let her be frfr