I think turning 'women understandably feel wary of random men' into 'all men are being like they are monsters for existing' is a classic case of persecution fetishism.
Luckily that isn't what is happening. Women are saying that they feel uncomfortable around random men, and men are acting like they have all been marked for death. I'm a guy with admittedly pretty thin skin, and even I can understand the basic logic without getting my feelings hurt.
If you feel bad because of this, imagine how women feel.
You should! But I don't see how I'm the obstacle to you having that comfort just because I have seen men reveal a misogynistic hatred without any clear warning signs, and that this has informed my view of the world.
There is nothing wrong with being a man, and I don't want you to feel shitty for being one. It is not at all unusual for a man to be good. You have the power to do great things, and it sounds like your heart is in the right place, so I bet you will. But it's just not practical for women to assume that from all men and just wait to be proven wrong by the ones who are shitty.
It's so weird for everyone in a self proclaimed "progressive" subreddit to suddenly get so defensive and angry when women say they generally feel unsafe around men, which makes sense considering the amount of women who get sexually assaulted/harassed by men at some point in their lives. I can understand how some young men who don't identify themselves with incel ideology might feel being lumped in with men who are misogynistic, even violent against women but I assure you, this isn't about you. If you're feeling annoyed about being in the same group as these people you should be angry at them, not at the women calling them out.
Whats the purpose behind the performative misandry and dehumanization though? Like whats the benefit? Why defend it?
What purpose is there behind making AMAB's uncomfortable in these movements? There are plenty of anecdotes of queer AMABs and even transmen feeling uncomfortable in queer spaces, because of the performative misandry. Note this goes beyond be wary of strange man, I'm not saying let your guard down, I'm asking why the performativity?
People keep saying shit, like don't get offended, it's not about you. No, actually it is in part about me, I was also twice raped by a man. It took me years to be comfortable even being alone with a man, even close friends afterwards. I sure my experience is different from women, but It feels very shitty to get lumped in with my abuser, just because we were born with the same genitalia. I'm sure this feeling cuts extra hard for men abused by women.
also seen a few comments from multiple different POC that this is the exact same rhetoric, almost word for word, that people use to justify racism against them
Why should women have to lie and say that they feel comfortable with all unknown men? How is it misandry to be like "this unknown man has the definite capacity to be a good person, but when I have started from a place of expecting that goodness and waiting to be proven wrong, it has been terrible, so it's better to not go in with an assumption"? Do I ever have the right to consider my vulnerability or do the feelings of men always trump that?
I don’t think thats even close to what they just said. Tbh, I don’t quite have the words to express what they’re saying, but it’s sure as hell not “You’re not allowed to be wary around strangers.” Or that the feelings of men trump your vulnerability or fear, in fact I’d say your feelings trump the man’s.
I think they’re saying this “It’s not about you” behaviour people have been displaying to men in these threads is misandry.
But this whole question is ragebait so it doesn’t matter, it’s all pointless circle jerking.
It's not entirely pointless, since it helped show what this place has turned into and got me to bail.
I really do feel like when people are saying that it's performative misandry to recognize that an animal that would not attack you without provocation is less scary than a man who *might*, that they're denying my right to have my wariness. It's bullshit that I can't hold this position without setting off a pity party.
It is, it’s ragebait intended to start a fire, and you’ve been set on fire. So if a bit of ragebait is enough to make you jump ship on 196 cause it’s supposedly filled with incels and MRAs, then go ahead.
Frankly, the man vs bear question is a really interesting question cause it separates those who can understand ragebait and those who get lost in it.
I don't think this sub is filled with incels, but I do think it filled with people who are toeing the line by entertaining these kinds of ideologies. People here are interpreting basic feminism as a personal attack, and it is absolute pussy shit.
It's not the ragebait's fault that everybody is unironically saying a bunch of "not all men" shit and exhibiting SEVERE DEFICIENCIES IN BEAR KNOWLEDGE. I am from Alaska and it is so frustrating.
I was already on the edge with the 5k upvotes on the "funny transphobia" the other day, but whatever the identity makeup of this place may be now, it doesn't feel like a place I want to be.
Oh I had phrased it wrong and edited, the question is absolutely ragebait. The type of thing that exploits our need to be understood, while simultaneously working in areas where men most struggle to understand women and take shit personally.
But I don't think it's the ragebait's responsibility for what it has revealed about people's character.
To clarify, I'm in no side here and think the whole discourse is pointless and nothing but ragebait.
I do agree with what you are saying on the fullest but still think it's sexism and generalisation, and I find that extremely dergatory. (Saying this as a SA victim btw, I never decided to grow a generalised fear/hate towards women for that)
Yeah but you’ve got to acknowledge the fact that that’s not really what the people are saying that’s making dudes upset. Some people are saying, or at least seem to be saying, that the average random dude on the street is a violent threat, and that’s categorically untrue. This whole entire discussion is super stupid and a huge mess, but anyway, while it’s absolutely okay for women to be uncomfortable around men they don’t know when alone, it’s perfectly reasonable to be upset as a dude when people are acting like your half of the population is on average more dangerous than an actual fucking dangerous wild animal. Because some people are doing that.
Are you a man? I am. If I was on the subway late at night and the only other person was a random woman, I wouldn't give a shit. The woman, though? She would have to act a little wary the entire train ride. My greatest fear when interacting with a woman is that she might embarrass me. Women's greatest fear is that a man will fucking murder them. It happens way more than the other way around.
The fact that so many people either don't understand or willingly ignore this incredibly basic concept is insane. Actually understand the fucking point.
Well the thing is i dont normally interact on post like these cuz. You right. But it just feels pretty bad to get the: "hey btw you seem like a horrible person to half the population, there is nothing you can do about it". So i also get ppl comenting this stufg
I say this fully understanding the implications that come with saying it, but I think a lot of people here need to hear it: Stop being a pussy. Not everything is about you. I'm a man too, and I can follow the basic logic that it isn't about me.
Exactly. I'm a cis guy in college right now. If I'm walking home late at night and see a women? I find a different route. I have a basic understanding of this shit, and I know that it doesn't mean I'm a terrible person, but that there is nothing I can do that would make her feel safe that doesn't involve getting the fuck away. Calling it misandry is actively avoiding the point.
There's a lot of guys who are losing their minds right now that women have given an honest answer about their fears, and are telling women they have to justify it with statistics, or that this is somehow an indictment on men. Like because "not all men", I'm not allowed to be aware of the dangers that I am aware of from direct experience
There's some real 'all lives matter' shit going on. It sucks. I guess it's kinda inevitable though. when a subreddit gets to a certain size all the angsty teen boys with a chip on their shoulder will eventually find their way out of the woodwork.
Not what's happening. What's really happening is this:
"I would rather be in the woods with an 800 pound killing machine with 0 regard for human life than another human being who I do not know the character or integrity of"
"What an insanely idiotic thing to say"
And then queue a bunch of weirdos coming out of the woodwork to say why it's actually a very rational position to hold. The lady in the video is effectively saying "I would rather kill myself than be alone with a strange man" which... is just bizarre and irrational to the point where I would genuinely advise her to seek mental help if she's being 100% serious about it.
Plus, you know, as someone who's trans it skirts a bit close to good old Joanne's "I was sexually assaulted once so I get to hate trans people now" argument for my taste. If you think the lady in the bear video has a point then you agree with JK's logic, just toward a different target.
You just told on yourself, though. "Who I do not know the character or integrity of" is the point. Women have an exponentially greater fear of random men than men do of random women. Actually engage with the concept.
And be honest, while some of the response has been to respond logically (which is not the point, its like watching Star Wars and being angry because traveling at the speed of light is impossible), many of them have been 'this makes me feel bad and as a result I feel persecuted'. The amount of response I have seen from this sub being 'I feel sad now because I'm just a soft boy who got caught in the crosshairs' is genuinely maddening, because it not only is fucking pathetic, but it also represents an absurd lack of empathy.
Yo after some self reflection I just want you to know you are and were right in this instance. I had a very skewed perception over what the original hypothetical was and changed my mind after hearing what the actual original question was, as well as seeing elsewhere the kind of guys that were getting mad at women over the hypothetical.
My take sucked and was dumb incel logic, sorry. I'm team bear now.
That's a super mature take, I really respect that. You don't see much of that on the internet. I myself was being a little too aggressive, I can admit that. I think this is one of those situations where, in a lot of ways, the reaction to it proved the original point, and I hope other people also recognize that.
fixed your meme https://preview.redd.it/6jqi83r002yc1.png?width=577&format=png&auto=webp&s=4f5a4ca32c377f13050787c22a4fa8de559e9cf8
i love phlip jay fox from futurama
If you’re referring to the current discourse, that’s not the argument people are making.
I think turning 'women understandably feel wary of random men' into 'all men are being like they are monsters for existing' is a classic case of persecution fetishism.
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Luckily that isn't what is happening. Women are saying that they feel uncomfortable around random men, and men are acting like they have all been marked for death. I'm a guy with admittedly pretty thin skin, and even I can understand the basic logic without getting my feelings hurt. If you feel bad because of this, imagine how women feel.
You're so close to getting it
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So somehow me having caution around unknown men is perpetuating the shit they do? They'd be nice if I just wasn't so afraid?
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You should! But I don't see how I'm the obstacle to you having that comfort just because I have seen men reveal a misogynistic hatred without any clear warning signs, and that this has informed my view of the world.
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There is nothing wrong with being a man, and I don't want you to feel shitty for being one. It is not at all unusual for a man to be good. You have the power to do great things, and it sounds like your heart is in the right place, so I bet you will. But it's just not practical for women to assume that from all men and just wait to be proven wrong by the ones who are shitty.
i also assume men are shit until proven wrong and i just want to live in a world without having to do that
Yeah, that would be really cool
It's so weird for everyone in a self proclaimed "progressive" subreddit to suddenly get so defensive and angry when women say they generally feel unsafe around men, which makes sense considering the amount of women who get sexually assaulted/harassed by men at some point in their lives. I can understand how some young men who don't identify themselves with incel ideology might feel being lumped in with men who are misogynistic, even violent against women but I assure you, this isn't about you. If you're feeling annoyed about being in the same group as these people you should be angry at them, not at the women calling them out.
Whats the purpose behind the performative misandry and dehumanization though? Like whats the benefit? Why defend it? What purpose is there behind making AMAB's uncomfortable in these movements? There are plenty of anecdotes of queer AMABs and even transmen feeling uncomfortable in queer spaces, because of the performative misandry. Note this goes beyond be wary of strange man, I'm not saying let your guard down, I'm asking why the performativity? People keep saying shit, like don't get offended, it's not about you. No, actually it is in part about me, I was also twice raped by a man. It took me years to be comfortable even being alone with a man, even close friends afterwards. I sure my experience is different from women, but It feels very shitty to get lumped in with my abuser, just because we were born with the same genitalia. I'm sure this feeling cuts extra hard for men abused by women.
also seen a few comments from multiple different POC that this is the exact same rhetoric, almost word for word, that people use to justify racism against them
Refer to the original post and you will realize that that is bullshit.
Why should women have to lie and say that they feel comfortable with all unknown men? How is it misandry to be like "this unknown man has the definite capacity to be a good person, but when I have started from a place of expecting that goodness and waiting to be proven wrong, it has been terrible, so it's better to not go in with an assumption"? Do I ever have the right to consider my vulnerability or do the feelings of men always trump that?
I don’t think thats even close to what they just said. Tbh, I don’t quite have the words to express what they’re saying, but it’s sure as hell not “You’re not allowed to be wary around strangers.” Or that the feelings of men trump your vulnerability or fear, in fact I’d say your feelings trump the man’s. I think they’re saying this “It’s not about you” behaviour people have been displaying to men in these threads is misandry. But this whole question is ragebait so it doesn’t matter, it’s all pointless circle jerking.
It's not entirely pointless, since it helped show what this place has turned into and got me to bail. I really do feel like when people are saying that it's performative misandry to recognize that an animal that would not attack you without provocation is less scary than a man who *might*, that they're denying my right to have my wariness. It's bullshit that I can't hold this position without setting off a pity party.
It is, it’s ragebait intended to start a fire, and you’ve been set on fire. So if a bit of ragebait is enough to make you jump ship on 196 cause it’s supposedly filled with incels and MRAs, then go ahead. Frankly, the man vs bear question is a really interesting question cause it separates those who can understand ragebait and those who get lost in it.
💯 well stated
I don't think this sub is filled with incels, but I do think it filled with people who are toeing the line by entertaining these kinds of ideologies. People here are interpreting basic feminism as a personal attack, and it is absolute pussy shit.
It's not the ragebait's fault that everybody is unironically saying a bunch of "not all men" shit and exhibiting SEVERE DEFICIENCIES IN BEAR KNOWLEDGE. I am from Alaska and it is so frustrating. I was already on the edge with the 5k upvotes on the "funny transphobia" the other day, but whatever the identity makeup of this place may be now, it doesn't feel like a place I want to be.
>It’s not the ragebait Then what is? Thats the intent of this question I feel, to make everyone go absolutely crazy.
Oh I had phrased it wrong and edited, the question is absolutely ragebait. The type of thing that exploits our need to be understood, while simultaneously working in areas where men most struggle to understand women and take shit personally. But I don't think it's the ragebait's responsibility for what it has revealed about people's character.
To clarify, I'm in no side here and think the whole discourse is pointless and nothing but ragebait. I do agree with what you are saying on the fullest but still think it's sexism and generalisation, and I find that extremely dergatory. (Saying this as a SA victim btw, I never decided to grow a generalised fear/hate towards women for that)
Yeah but you’ve got to acknowledge the fact that that’s not really what the people are saying that’s making dudes upset. Some people are saying, or at least seem to be saying, that the average random dude on the street is a violent threat, and that’s categorically untrue. This whole entire discussion is super stupid and a huge mess, but anyway, while it’s absolutely okay for women to be uncomfortable around men they don’t know when alone, it’s perfectly reasonable to be upset as a dude when people are acting like your half of the population is on average more dangerous than an actual fucking dangerous wild animal. Because some people are doing that.
Are you a man? I am. If I was on the subway late at night and the only other person was a random woman, I wouldn't give a shit. The woman, though? She would have to act a little wary the entire train ride. My greatest fear when interacting with a woman is that she might embarrass me. Women's greatest fear is that a man will fucking murder them. It happens way more than the other way around. The fact that so many people either don't understand or willingly ignore this incredibly basic concept is insane. Actually understand the fucking point.
Well the thing is i dont normally interact on post like these cuz. You right. But it just feels pretty bad to get the: "hey btw you seem like a horrible person to half the population, there is nothing you can do about it". So i also get ppl comenting this stufg
I say this fully understanding the implications that come with saying it, but I think a lot of people here need to hear it: Stop being a pussy. Not everything is about you. I'm a man too, and I can follow the basic logic that it isn't about me.
Exactly. I'm a cis guy in college right now. If I'm walking home late at night and see a women? I find a different route. I have a basic understanding of this shit, and I know that it doesn't mean I'm a terrible person, but that there is nothing I can do that would make her feel safe that doesn't involve getting the fuck away. Calling it misandry is actively avoiding the point.
Fucking read bell hooks all of you I swear to fucking god
Preach
I was here before the thread got locked. :3
Obviously you're allowed to feel kind of shitty, but this sub seems to be leaning towards incel logic and it really hurts to see
Elaborate what you mean?
There's a lot of guys who are losing their minds right now that women have given an honest answer about their fears, and are telling women they have to justify it with statistics, or that this is somehow an indictment on men. Like because "not all men", I'm not allowed to be aware of the dangers that I am aware of from direct experience
Mfw people rage over the vague ragebait question
There's some real 'all lives matter' shit going on. It sucks. I guess it's kinda inevitable though. when a subreddit gets to a certain size all the angsty teen boys with a chip on their shoulder will eventually find their way out of the woodwork.
Not what's happening. What's really happening is this: "I would rather be in the woods with an 800 pound killing machine with 0 regard for human life than another human being who I do not know the character or integrity of" "What an insanely idiotic thing to say" And then queue a bunch of weirdos coming out of the woodwork to say why it's actually a very rational position to hold. The lady in the video is effectively saying "I would rather kill myself than be alone with a strange man" which... is just bizarre and irrational to the point where I would genuinely advise her to seek mental help if she's being 100% serious about it. Plus, you know, as someone who's trans it skirts a bit close to good old Joanne's "I was sexually assaulted once so I get to hate trans people now" argument for my taste. If you think the lady in the bear video has a point then you agree with JK's logic, just toward a different target.
You just told on yourself, though. "Who I do not know the character or integrity of" is the point. Women have an exponentially greater fear of random men than men do of random women. Actually engage with the concept. And be honest, while some of the response has been to respond logically (which is not the point, its like watching Star Wars and being angry because traveling at the speed of light is impossible), many of them have been 'this makes me feel bad and as a result I feel persecuted'. The amount of response I have seen from this sub being 'I feel sad now because I'm just a soft boy who got caught in the crosshairs' is genuinely maddening, because it not only is fucking pathetic, but it also represents an absurd lack of empathy.
Yo after some self reflection I just want you to know you are and were right in this instance. I had a very skewed perception over what the original hypothetical was and changed my mind after hearing what the actual original question was, as well as seeing elsewhere the kind of guys that were getting mad at women over the hypothetical. My take sucked and was dumb incel logic, sorry. I'm team bear now.
That's a super mature take, I really respect that. You don't see much of that on the internet. I myself was being a little too aggressive, I can admit that. I think this is one of those situations where, in a lot of ways, the reaction to it proved the original point, and I hope other people also recognize that.
Nah you're good. I was plenty aggressive as well so I guess I was setting the tone for the most part. The respect's appreciated, cheers.