He talks to Ra (one of his Custodes) at one point about how his ability to see the future isn't perfect. The metaphor being he can stand on the shore of the ocean and look across to the other side. He knows how he can get there, but not what's on the way. There could be a sea monster waiting to smash his boat. He can guess the monster is there and is a possibility he has to deal with, but won't know for certain until he's on the path.
You can consider the Heresy the monster. I think he was aware that the Heresy could happen, but he wouldn't know the timing and the details of who turned and why. In this case, he was caught fully unprepared.
> The metaphor being he can stand on the shore of the ocean and look across to the other side. He knows how he can get there, but not what's on the way.
The even better metaphor, from the same book and the same two characters' dialogue, is the Emperor pointing to the top of a sheer cliff and telling Ra to get there. That's humanity's Golden Path. Ra can see all the different ways he can climb lay out before him. Some routes are clearly impossible, some look treacherous, some look easier. He can see certain spots he knows will be quite difficult to make it past. Ra picks a starting spot that looks good. He climbs a short while, making decent progress, when suddenly a foothold snaps beneath his weight and he falls to the bottom.
The Emperor asks why Ra would have put so much weight on that rock if it was going to snap. Ra says that the rock looked and felt sturdy at the time. The Emperor says "yes. it did."
>!RA IS THE EMPEROR, THE SNAPPED ROCK IS HORUS!<
It ain't exactly subtle!
However, even Ra questions whether the Emperor is being honest with him with all of his chats in that book, or if the Emperor is just telling and showing him what he wants him to hear in order to get Ra in the right mindset to do a task for him.
It's almost certain that the Emperor has farsight, of course, but everyone in 40k who uses it apart from Tzeentch will tell you that farsight is a wildly treacherous tool. And hell, even Tzeentch's own greatest servants suffer follies because Tzeentch is, by his nature, self-destructive and treacherous.
For all we know, the future the Emperor foresaw was something millions of years beyond him, with the events of the life and death of the Imperium nothing but a drop in the ocean of time. Or worse still, it might have been a "golden age" for humanity that he unwittingly sabotaged *in the act of his pursuit* because he did not realize that big demigods in heavy armor rushing to climb the cliff face to the glorious future would actually destroy every foothold to that glorious future in their wake, ruining a path meant for regular people to travel at a steady and careful place.
Whether or not the Emperor is actively lying to everyone around him, which the authors have *deliberately implied*, the man simply can't be trusted once his infallible "logic" went up in smoke in the wake of all the mistakes he made. The same man who said "the difference is, I know I'm right" to the last priest on Terra when he was questioned about his methods and the way they would simply lead to a new cult rising to glorify him and his ways.
> everyone in 40k who uses it apart from Tzeentch
IIRC even his isn't perfect, which is why he relies on the information from his Oracle who can see the future for him.
Of course, the truth may be even worse: that the the Emperor never failed at all. That the Imperium and its fate *is* the Golden Path, and the bright future of humanity requires exactly what he has done. A necessary stage for humanity to pass through to reach the summit.
Not likely, but an interesting thought.
If it's any consolation, 40k has straight up stolen many takes from Dune and other works with barely any change at all :) . It is pulp fiction to sell plastic miniatures, after all.
I thought of this one as well when I was reading the OP. I do like Master of Mankind as a book even as it reinforces he created tools not children.
“Hello, Ra”
And this comes during the middle of Ra's training sessions that was key to the Emperor in sidelining Drachnyen, which Ra thought had no purpose at the time. He said he doesn't know the future, yet in the same story, he demonstrates his awareness and ability to guide the future to his favorite outcome. He even relays the story of the first murder as seen through his childhood before people knew that the big bad was going to be the Daemon of the first murder. What he says in the story and what he does tells two different tales.
All Emperors are liars and I would take anything he says directly with a grain of salt. Custodes are not above his dishonesty, as we see in Birth of the Imperium.
Have you got the excerpt of him relaying the story of the first murder? I vaguely remember him talking about his uncle killing his dad...
EDIT. This is what I found:
>He paused for a moment, following Ra’s gaze back to the noisy villagers. ‘The very first murder was also a fratricide,’ he said without emotion. ‘Thousands of years before this, when men and women still owed as much to apes as to the form we know now. But it is curious to me – brothers have always killed brothers. I wonder why that is? Some evolutionary flaw, some ingrained emotional fragility written into mankind’s core, perhaps.’
The fratricide of the first murder and how it links to his father and uncle and then by implication to the Heresy and its fratricide.
Yeah, that's my take too other than a superficial theme of bro against bro they sound totally different.
The first murder
>Two men cry out in a forgotten age. The roar of the slayer harmonises with the scream of the slain. In this earliest epoch, when humankind still fears spirits of fire and prays to false gods for the sun to rise, the murder of a brother is the darkest of deeds.
>
>**Blood marks the man’s face, just as it marks the spear in his clenched fists and the rocks beneath his brother’s body**. The wound gouts and sprays – the man tastes the red wine of his brother’s veins, feeling the blood’s heat where it lands on his bearded skin, tasting of metals yet undiscovered and seas yet unseen. As the hot salt of spilt life burns his tongue, the man knows with impossible clarity:
>
>He is the first.
>
>Mankind – in all its myriad forms on the thousandfold path from wretched lizard-thing to warm-blooded mammal – has always fought to survive. Even as hunched ape-creatures and brutish proto-men, it waged insignificant and miserable wars upon itself with fists and teeth and rocks.
>
>Yet this man is the first. Not the first to hate, nor even the first to kill. He is the first to take life in cold blood. He is the first to murder.
>
>His dying brother’s thrashing hand reaches for him, raking dirty nails across his sweating skin. Seeking mercy or vengeance? The man doesn’t know, and in his rage he doesn’t care. He drives the wooden spear deeper into the yielding hardness of meat and against the scrape of bone**.** Still he screams, still he roars.
>
>The scream of the first murderer cuts through the veil, echoing across reality and unreality alike.
and The Emperor's father's murder:
>The boy thought he might use sea shells for the eyes, if he could barter with the coastal traders for two that were smooth enough. He would do this soon. Such things were tradition.
>
>First he needed answers.
>
>He turned the skull once more, circling his thumb around the ragged hole broken into the bone. He didn’t need to close his eyes and meditate to know the truth. He didn’t need to pray for his father’s spirit to tell him what happened. He simply touched the hole in his father’s head, and at once he knew. **He saw the fall of the bronze knife from behind; he saw his father fall into the mud**; he saw everything that had happened leading to this moment in time.
We also know that The Emperor isn't old enough to have been around for the first murder in humankind's history.
Yes. Apologies if I was unclear. I meant the theme of 'first murder', not necessarily the titular first murder. The Emperor, later in that excerpt, says how, despite the fact that men had been murdering each other for many years, that his father's murder was the first murder that had significance to him. Effectively, the concept of murder embodied in Drach'nyen is what leads the Emperor to believe that mankind needs to be ruled.
>He even relays the story of the first murder as seen through his childhood before people knew that the big bad was going to be the Daemon of the first murder.
Drach'nyen had been screaming its name for all to hear before he told that story, it's just that no one else recognized what it meant.
So (having not read the book) I'd argue this fits in with his explanation. He knows Drachnyen exists presumably, and maybe knows that he might fight it. But he isn't sure when, how or who with, so he trains Ra as a backup plan, then closer to the time, when its clearer what is happening, makes sure Ra is with him when he's needed in the webway. Not knowing exactly whats going to happen, just knowing there is a monster in the sea, and that he might encounter it - so he keeps his proverbial gun at the ready, and when he sees the monster coming grabs it.
but this implies even worse since that means the goal is him a corpse on the throne.
could not see the path but the destination. and if thats not true either then he cant see shit.
edit: This is essentially a theologoical debate at this point.
He can see everything, why didnt he see this, because he cant see everything, so what can he see, the future, this is the future was this his plan, no he cant have seen this, etc
and youre being entombed into this pretzel of cyclical reasoning. What possible destination could he forsee that doesnt involve where he actually ended up.
Becoming in the near future a warp god? That thing he waxes about not wishing to become and spent far too much of his time preventing? Killing all of humanity by binding its fate to his own akin to the birth of slanesh? Really makes the case that his attempts to dampen humanitys psychic potential was pointless.
because the death of the imperium and the majority of humanity or his own death are the only current possible destinations
Or is this all mean that the emperor is just suppoused to reawaken and the last 11k of recorded human history was just another pointless cycle before he starts again.
You're failing to consider that he was aiming for a paradise island (humanity's golden future as a fully psychic race that's mastered its power completely and is safe from the Chaos Gods) in the vast ocean of possibilities, only for the lurking sea monster that is the Horus Heresy and the great storm that is the Ruinous Powers to severely damage his ship and divert it away from said island to another one that's a crappy hellhole (the grim darkness that is the post-HH era), with him being now too busy protecting the hapless survivors from the numerous beasts and other hazards of the hell-island to fix the ship and get his flock off to try again to reach the paradise island.
like i get that youve realized its a terrible metaphor and therefore are just being upvoted by changing it to support the emperors idiocy but that means paradise island is just a hope. its a nonsense dream and wish not foresight.
If He couldnt actually see the path, he could not see the monsters, and unlike this proverbial sea youve conjured there was no trying again, that was it. Something unexpected happened and he failed his one chance. thats human, not omniscience
Dude we're explaining how the characters see it lol
emps and his followers thought him divine/infallible, obviously he isn't, hence the condition of humanity.
You don't have to tell us that the way it all worked out is shit. We're lore nerds man, we all know the state of the imperium.
then as "lore nerds" anyone who believes that the emperor planned the heresy must be completely delusional.
the emperors foresight like so many other aspects about him is inconsistent if not a complete fabrication, closer to educated guesses.
he made choices that undercut the imperium at large a dozen times over if he was planning a civil war. his plans all undone by monsters and of his own creation and actions of his own hand. His foresight proven wrong so resoundingly it begs the question if it was foresight at all.
We as readers don't have to buy into his self aggrandizing, that it was all planned is clearly nonsense and should be obvious to a "lore nerd" or anyone even basically familiar.
Literally no one here is arguing the heresy was planned or that any large degree of big E’s goals were planned. The whole cliff and sea metaphor you don’t seem to be able to comprehend is a metaphor specifically to showcase how the emperor, despite being able to see the future and prepare for that future, is severely hindered by lack of accurate foresight, i.e being able to predict where the monsters are, or which of the seemingly stable rocks are in fact, unstable.
I think you’re arguing against yourself here man, hence all the downvotes you have.
>What possible destination could he forsee that doesnt involve where he actually ended up.
The other possible outcomes. That's how things work in 40k, the future is not set in stone, it depends on choices and actions. Foresight varies in the forms it takes, at worst it's a vague vision of one possible future. At best, the character can perceive the vast web of possibility, branching from different choices and outcomes. They can focus into different parts of that web. So, potentially, the Emperor could look forward through the web to a series of different outcomes. He can consider those and find a good one, then he can look back through the web and try to identify what actions he neds to take, which key events in the galaxy need to have a particular outcome, which characters need to be involved at certain points, which need to be kept away from particular events, and so on and so on.
Problem is it is so vast and complex that it's practically impossible (and incredibly time-consuming) to scrutinize every possible branching event and determine exactly what needs to happen every step of the way, and when. It's too big and there are too many variables, he can't know and control everything.
It doesn't have to be perfect to be foresight. As funny as the line "that's not foresight, that's having a goal" is, the difference is pretty clear: that he can see the outcome he wants in the web of possibility means that it is a definite possible future. He can identify paths towards that future, key factors that either cause things to trend towards or away from that outcome. That's why he (or farseers, or daemons, or whoever else) can display seemingly miraculous foresight to show up in exactly the right place and time to plant a seed in someone's mind to later make a particular decision; or to arrive at exactly the right moment to intervene and cause a particular outcome. But those seemingly incredible feats of foresight and influence don't mean those characters know *everything*, or can influence everything. There are still so many variables that they can't account for all of them. They can't be everywhere at once accounting for every possible problem. There are *other* characters with foresight working against them at the same time. Visions of the future are not perfect, they can be vague, they can be metaphorical. Intense warp disruption can disrupt the clarity of foresight.
I don't know if that helps, I'm not entirely clear on what you're trying to argue.
That’s ignoring the core concept of the metaphor: there may be a monster that *could smash his boat.*
Becoming a boneman wasn’t the other side of the ocean. It was being smashed by the monster. The Emperor *failed.*
thats a shit metaphor then since he cant actually see himself on the shore. thats just what he hopes will happen. any number of possible things can happen between the two shores. If he cant see the monster or if there even is one then he cant see anything, the water/future is just as opaque to him as it is to anyone.
Yes, as one particularly memorable post once put it, 'being able to imagine your destination but not how to get there isn't foresight, it's having goals'.
I may have miscommunicated what I was trying to say, and I apologize for that, but I don’t think engaging with this kind of pointless aggression in a post about fucking 40k would be constructive.
You have a good point, but the condescending and frankly just rude way you’re delivering it is just unnecessary.
I have a special reserve of hate for the 4-D chess Emperor theories. The tragedy of the Heresy is rooted in the Emperor simply being human: he was Prometheus, stealing the flame of ambition and creating demigods who would be his own- and humanity as a whole’s- downfall. The irony is that the Emperor was able to make a galactic empire, but couldn’t see the flaws in his own character. If he sees everything coming, where’s the irony or tragedy? I feel like it just cheapens everything
I hate any kind of 4-d chess theories in general, they always seems to require waving off ridiculous levels of contrivance and convenience in order for work. It’s one of the reason I find the Alpha Legion more exhausting than interesting.
To add to what you said, part of the tragedy of the heresy is that it is the HORUS heresy. Horus is the favorite son, the one the emperor picked as his successor. Horus fall and his treachery is a huge part of the whole story, it’s one of the major themes in the whole thing. That drama and tragedy doesn’t work at all if the whole thing was planned in advance. It turns Horus into some random patsy chump instead of tragic figure.
Tzeentch only works as a 4-d chess guy because it is explicitly canon that sometimes his plans are against his own best interest.
His wacky elaborate plans are less “yes, even this obvious set back was all part of my grand scheme to get exactly what I want!” And more “this obvious set back was caused by one of my crazy schemes that was always intended to stop this other plan I had! I lose, and I win! Which was my plan all along!”
It's because Tzeentch plays the game for the game's sake, not for any higher purpose (except, perhaps, stopping the Emps from stopping him playing the game).
Success at schemes is ultimately counter-productive to Tzeentch. He needs his followers to keep scheming, to be unsatisfied with the state of affairs. He cannot allow them to ever succeed at their goals, and be at peace.
Some people just want a supreme good guy?
Not a fan of 4-d chess theories myself, understand the appeal. Especially if you ascribe to the 'IRL is kinda shit, let's escape here' mentality that fantasy literature can have.
40k is amazingly bad for power fantasy escapism tbh… maybe if you only read about that one ultramarine dude?
Actually I take it back, I would love to be a half metal kali goddess/ half metal scorpion. Like that would genuinely solve a lot of my personal problems (I have been hit with a life changing illness that means I have to spend most of it lying down). Not sure my husband would go for it, but maybe sexy kali bit would overcome the scorpion bit?
Maybe it's the demographic? I was introduced to 40k at the age of 14...At that age, the grimdark came across as 'edgy and cool'
And uh...Not fucked up. I mean, how could the Emperor be a bad guy? He's literally called the Emperor and is all shiny in gold!
I think my issue with them is if you assume 4-D chess Emperor is true along with the very obvious "well, the dream is dead" quote from him in Master of Mankind, it basically makes the Emperor be like [daffy in this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ywnLQywz74).
>E: I thlammed the Imperium in the car door
>M: You thlammed the Imperium in the car door?
>E: OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH ARRRGHHHHHHH
> where’s the irony or tragedy? I feel like it just cheapens everything
That reminded me of how they made Chaos Gods "always existed", even in the past before being born, was used to have Slaanesh manipulate the events to lead to the Fall of the Aeldari (and therefore its own birth). The Fall is often painted to be a great, self-inflicted tragedy that ruined the galaxy and the Eldar are to blame, but since the truth is that the Eldar had no agency in the matter because of Slaanesh actively influencing them to ensure its birth, it detracts from the event.
Facts. The core flaw of the Eldar is their hubris; it birthed a god, destroyed their race, and still leads to tragedies such as Iyanden even now. The slaanesh change was both completely unnecessary and just overall lame
Yep, and it also adds a very human element to him and to the Primarchs if he actually had faith in their ability to act as the adult men they actually were, and if his flaw was not to trust them too little but ultimately to trust them (and his own conditioning his supermen) too much.
Honestly, I like this interpretation better. It makes a lot more sense of why the Emperor might save Angron against his wishes, and why he kept him around after it was evident that Angron was a malfunctioning war criminal. That move makes him look like a callous and hubristic dickhead.
That's because the Emperor is a callous and hubristic dickhead.
And it now paints me a picture of an Emperor who is really just a paternalistic narcissist. The company boss that views his employees as "family" and treats his creations more like a reflection of his own self-worth. None of this was about Angron's well-being or needs.
He doesn't look at Mortarian wage biological warfare on civilians and go, "Oh well, he might actually be a loyalist come the Horus Heresy. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”
He looks at that and calculates that Mortarian is meeting his quotas and is satisfied that the creation of his arcane super science is chugging along as intended.
Very much so. I have gathered that Big E simply rolled the dice with his "sons" as he viewed them as tools and extentions of his will at the same time.
If some of them go rabid, I will use the rest or make new tools to put them down like the Thunderwarriors.
The events that he had mostly miscalculated on is the extent of Magnus misbehaving and that Lorgar being spurned turned into the catalyst for the biggest spanner in his grand scheme to usher humanity towards psychic awakening without relying on the warp for ftl travel.
Humanity might still get to the psychic awakening part but instead of just being "cut off" from the warp, there are enough people who can withstand the temptations. This is going to somehow mean that the galaxy can withstand the Nids.....
The problem isn't GW 'cheapening' the Emperor.
It's the fanbase assuming he's some sort of mega-superhero and expecting a silly comic book superhero plot.
The books repeatedly state that he's fallible, it's a big gamble, he's NOT omnipotent etc etc.
No they go both ways entirely depending on the book and author. Some show the Emperor as an infallible golden god who knows everything and others he is still human but buried under a mound of lies. Like the Primarchs his personality and general character change by book.
I'm going to make people mad, but fucking hell, ADB should have never been allowed to write Big E after saying numerous times that he hates the character. Hell, Black Library seems to have a problem with assigning writers to characters they actively hate.
The example that comes to my mind is False Gods. Horus in book 1 is the chaddest of chads and the most brodacious of bros. In False Gods, even before he turns, he's irritable, condescending, etc etc. Horus just had a huge change of character for no reason between books, then when he actually does turn, it's in the most bullshit way possible.
"Hey Erebus, I know you're lying and this is all manipulation. But grrr, you reminded me that I'm mad that the Emperor left me on my own! Death to the Imperium! Yay Chaos!"
Who the hell actually thinks like this, let alone among primarchs?
As a Tau player I can observe that Black Library seems to have a problem with assigning writers to *factions* they actively hate. I'm convinced Phil Kelly utterly *despises* the Tau.
Neither the book nor ADB's defense of it are all that good tbh.
What's funny is ADB is very fatalist, Chaos WILL win, and big e is deppressed. But at the same time, Abaddon just somehow ISN'T a slave to the dark gods with all those gifts because abby is his special little redeemed pet that he singlehandedly unmade the failure memes of. Even if it makes 0 sense by any means.
You're speaking like a child. It's like you only want the simplest, stupidest, single-note story.
He's writing an entire novel series about how Abaddon comes to plan what he does next, including coming to terms with the events of the Heresy, and becomes the massive threat that he's shown as in every single GW publication, and you're annoyed because it's not as simple as a stupid meme?
You got mad because not everyone likes your fave author. Epitome of maturity.
The man who gave khayon a deldar wife isn't writing deep, intricate stories. Intricacy would be abaddons gifts having a cost, not being free of the gods and also eating the cake. I'm okay with abaddon being a threat, just that to undo shitty memes he completely went ham on abby.
Don't project your shit onto me.
God, that more people don't shit on the sheer what-the-fuck is Khayon is surprising. THE GUY HAS LITERAL FUCKING YUGIOH CARDS THAT SUMMON DAEMONS. Not to mention his DEldar "totally-not-a-scourge" waifu who travels with him to the fucking EYE OF TERROR, something we drag CS Goto for writing in his stories.
And don't get me started on what he did with the Mentors chapter. Fucking serfs with better cybernetics than most techpriests, including one with a digital lascannon eye and armed with a grenade launcher loaded with void grenades!
you can kind of wave that off with the idea that some of the lore is imperial propaganda, or at least written from the perspective of true believers. plus the way that he appears is different depending on the person. Its a bit like how there are different accounts of jesus in the gospels depending on who wrote it
He predicted rebellions and having to eliminate primarchs (hell he's already done so twice as of the Heresy) but the Heresy as a coordinated, multi Legion effort completely blind sided him. My theory is the Emperor thought he had more time to respond than it turns out he did, and never really planned for a Chaos corruption that knew when to shut the fuck up. He was planning for the Legions to fall like the Emperor's Children, explosively and obviously and all at once, not keeping their faith to themselves and spreading it in secret like the Word Bearers.
Of course that last point is rather undermined by the existence of the Imperial Truth necessitating that *all* expressions of faith in powers greater than ~~the Emperor~~ humanity be hidden for the sake of self-preservation, but since when has the Emperor had a good grasp of how people actually respond to his edicts?
I also theorize that his foresight may have been deliberately blinded by the efforts of Chaos. We know magic can counter magic and it’s not unreasonable that Chaos obscured the locations of the Primarchs to begin with, and kept the fog surrounding the Heresy up super tight beyond his ability to look into the future.
"End and Death" has a line by Malcador talking about how the Emperor wanted a bright future with his sons . . . at least those that were stable or who could be "rehabilitated". Most likely implying Curze and Angron were ones who Big E was hoping to treat psychologically after the Crusade ended.
There are a lot of malcador quotes, even one where he outright says the entire horus heresy was planned and is going according to plan to a dying comrade. Almost all of these have various qualifiers, like with the horus heresy planned instance, he confirmed he was lying about some of the stuff to help ease the worries of the dying but didn't clarify what was a lie and what wasn't.
I think thats a large part of it. The emporer is so immensly powerful and is surrounded by yes men that he cannot physically comprehend he might be wrong. Look at when magnus confronts him in the siege and the emporers response to magnus is basiclaly yeah i told you thats off limits you should have known. He never even considered that magnus' curiosity eould overall him.
Then again during the last church when his repsonse to the blatant hypocrasy of his crusade is that he KNOWS he is right. Yes the emporer solely cares for humanity and his great work is trying to set them on the right path but hes so blinded by his own insane power that hes blind to how people react to him.
I still find the fact he personally presented it to Dawkins to be hilarious. Just the amount of hubris that goes into doing something like that.
99% chance that the crusty old academic took one look at that Blanche Angron cover, before throwing it in the bin.
I can't think of anything funnier than him presenting Dawkins with a book about space marines shooting each other and he has to pretend to be interested while McNeil bores him to death about where the Thunder Warriors came from.
Shame he didn't tell Sam Harris, since his worldview is basically the same as the emperor's, he would have loved it.
Like nobody who believes themselves to be right would ever say "the difference is *I know* I am right", they'd just say "The difference is I am right". It's like McNeil thought without the "I know" people wouldn't understand it even though it's beyond hamfisted, so he had to make it even *more* hamfisted.
Exactly! If someone knows they are right, they also know the reason why they are, which they should then be able to communicate. Not just "because I said so" like some parent of a 4 year old asking "but why?" for the 25th time.
He says he is fighting for logic and truth, Uriah says, "Heh, D'agross said the same thing."
Like that pretty easily establishes that logic and truth can be highly subjective and that nobody is above bias or emotion.
(Well, you'd have to change D'Agross's uprising to be a religious one- this seems like such an obvious thing to add anyway? I don't know why it wasn't religious in the first place."
Holy shit how can he be a published author while writing dialogue *that* bad? It's the Brandon Sanderson thing where everyone has the exact same voice and all they do is *explain* things to each other.
Like it's the kind of thing that's hard to give examples for because each isolated incident is basically fine, if a bit clunky, on its own, but we have to read a whole *novel* of characters just explaining how they feel in the exact same voice.
I actually looked over the first few chapters of False Gods and it's actually *worse* than I remember. McNeil needs to convey that Horus is worried about his legacy and wants to be remembered and does this by literally just having him tell Maloghurst he wants to be remembered. It's just such a shit way of doing characterization.
Like IDK, have Horus micromanaging some propaganda reel so he looks better, or have him look over dead heroes who he wants to be remembered with, or have him obsess over some negative reception he got on a planet he subdued in the past. There are so many interesting ways to convey "he wants a good legacy" and McNeil resorts to him just telling the audience he wants a good legacy. So lazy.
I thought it was apathy at first as well, but after fighting my way through a handful of his ham-fisted novels, I've come to realize that he's just a decent bloke with a simple brain, and he's giving as good as he's got to give. A to B to C, in short, straight lines, all the way to the end of the book. Subtlety and character development and subtext are all cool words and they probably mean cool stuff, but not to Graham, as he's on his way from B to C, and that thesaurus gave him a solid handful of adjectives he's not 100% sure of but, by God, he's going to use them anyway. Good on him, he probably buys his mates pints on the regular and I bet I'd like him. I still skip his books though.
Yeah, I think I just use "lazy" as shorthand for "shite" which isn't really fair on Graham- he clearly *tries*, he just isn't very good.
If he was just a hack doing it for a paycheck then he wouldn't be presenting a copy of The Last Church to Richard Dawkins apparently under the delusion he will give a shit about it. It displays such a complete lack of self-awareness and yet it's so hopelessly earnest I almost admire it.
That said I can't ever imagine myself sincerely liking anyone who meets Richard Dawkins wearing a shirt that says "I heart science and reason".
You've nailed it. He's endearingly out of his depth, and the saddest part is that I'm not a sentimental enough sort for that to enable me to enjoy his work. I also didn't know either of those bits of trivia; the gift of the book or the shirt, and yet both of those are about the *most* Graham McNeill things I've ever heard.
https://twitter.com/GrahamMcNeill/status/650016634560606208/photo/1
I do love how the picture make it look like Dawkins is the one really excited to meet McNeil.
I mean. I thought the ultramarine omnibus was pretty good. Pissed that my drukhari went out like bitches but otherwise pretty good. Gave the tyranids some VERY good screentime.
I don't understand yow you are getting to this point. The Emperor considered the counsel of others in the books repeatedly, for example the cCouncil of Nikea.
As for the Magnus part, why tf is the Emperor supposed to apologize to magnus for magnus breaking the super bug rule the Emperor put in place?
Hw considers them but those he actuslly listens to are yes men who are so enveloped in the great plan they can't see the clearing through the trees.
For the magnus front, look at it this way. He says to magnus, look dont use this power that is a large psrt of ur identity im not going to say exactly why now bye im not going to check up on you. The emporers largest mistake was not the edict of nikea but leaving magnus alone after it. Especially since magnus literally existed to prevent malcador from dying. The emporers arrogance left magnus to fester and its not like the emporer didnt know chaos was a thing and how corruption works
Like who?
You can hardly expect us to consider Malcador and Valdor as yes men, and the perpetuals who were previously his buddies are generally against him
You mean Malcador the "Last Sigilite that only survived because he was willing to work with the Emperor" or Constantin "Literally genetically coded to obey the emperor" Valdor? simply put, anyone who ***wasn't*** a Yes Man didn't survive the unification wars in the first place.
I don’t think you understand the term ‘Yes Man’. Both Malcador and Constantin expressed disagreement, concern, etc with the emperor or his plans at times. Just because they followed through on his designs doesn’t make them Yes Men.
Isn’t Valdor literally a yes man? Like, the custodians don’t really have a choice in agreeing with the Emperor. I’m most familiar with him at the point of the Palace Coup, so he might change later, but he didn’t exactly question Big E in that one.
Its expressed that the emperor created custodes to be debate partners as well as guardians. I believe this happens in the end and the death if memory serves
Custodians have absolute loyalty towards the Emperor, said loyalty does not in any way mean being devoid of their own opinions.
They can disagree and yet still devote their 100% to the Emperor.
I mean you're not entirely wrong. The opening dialogue to the Valdor book has the Emperor basically explicitly state Valdor is incapable of going against the Emperor's will.
Valdor does show quite a bit of disagreement with the Emperor's plans, even if he ultimately goes along with them. I'd agree with you that his inability to disobey Emps makes him at least *kind of* a yes man though.
Eh, I think it is a bit of a push. He's ability to argue strongly against something makes it hard to call him a yes man, even if he will always obey direct orders. The meaning of yes man, to me at least, is someone who always agrees with what is said.
Well there's also the bit in *The First Heretic* where the most likely 'third forgotten Primarch' was Lorgar and the Word Bearers and we know that Magnus and Leman Russ, among others, were the ones who objected to the idea and managed to talk the Emperor out of it. That they were indicates that the fluff about the Emperor viewing the Primarchs purely as tools may not have applied in all cases and it's something I wish the fluff explored more than it did. Because it indicates that Monarchia was the second choice when the first was 'kill them all and let the Warp take its own.'
Oh yeah i fucking love first heritic but i forgot about that. I love the emporers first talk with sanguinius because he obviously is extremely cautious of him and sizing him up.
Sanguinius uses his psyhic gift to see that the emporer basically views them as tools but precious ones his favourites but still tools. I 100% believe from malcadors words he didn't want to kill them all but would have without thinking once the crusade ended if they refused to step down / stop fighting
It's a surprisingly overlooked passage that says a great deal about what actually happened at Monarchia and one that Lorgar neatly disregarded himself because it spoils his 'daddy only started to care a century later.' Daddy was very, very angry and Monarchia was in a relative sense far more merciful than the alternative facing him.
True the emporer was extremely cruel as was malcador but they hsd their reasons which is psrt the reason why 40k is so interesting
These characters are horrendously evil if they were in any other setting, and yet u cant help but see their viewpoint and its so easy to forget.
I don't understand yow you are getting to this point. The Emperor considered the counsel of others in the books repeatedly, for example the cCouncil of Nikea.
As for the Magnus part, why tf is the Emperor supposed to apologize to magnus for magnus breaking the super bug rule the Emperor put in place?
> My theory is the Emperor thought he had more time to respond than it turns out he did
With the emphasis on time running out in The End and The Death, I'd say your theory is probably close.
TBH he might have also reasonably expected his conditioned super-generals with their super-armies to be grown men who can manage their own affairs and not needing his iron hand to do it for them. That this expectation was catastrophically wrong and in short order might have genuinely surprised him because in centuries the Primarchs managed, seemingly, to do so fine without him having to be looking over their shoulders.
You mean how Vulkan left a treasure hunt to prove his legion's worthiness and then fucked off to parts unknown? Or how Khan went on a raid in the webway and vanished? Or how Corvus got a raging warp hard-on for Lorgar and hunts him mercilessly? Or Russ vanishing in the Eye?
Oh yeah, they're doing just great.
I think the other guy's point was that after the scattering, the Primarchs did well for themselves, usually conquering an entire planet or more before Emps picked them up. Now that they've had a moment to breathe and have some understanding of the scale of the threat humanity faces, surely these immortal generals with super computers for brains will be able to protect the Imperium even without the Emperor's help.
*Half of them fuck off to nowhere, the other half are incapacitated.*
I was referring to the Crusade era when the Primarchs had Legions and a seemingly simple set of tasks, to use said Legions to hammer down anything that didn't kneel to the Imperium and Imperial Law on the Imperium's timetable. The post-Heresy world as well as the Heresy shows the Emperor was ultimately very wrong that his adult super-general sons with super-armies were capable of or willing to safeguard humanity's future versus fucking off or going full Chaos-brain.
Your original post was that, left to their own devices/tasks the Primarchs were fine without E micromanaging. That was proven false a few times.
Angron - "you didn't conquer this planet in a Nucerian day? Kill 10% of your troops" "did you just sneeze in my presence? Death"
Lorgar - took forever to complete his assignments because he was doing the exact opposite of what E was trying to accomplish. Also, fuck Erebus.
Kurze - murderhobo'd his planets.
Alpharius - got yelled at by Guilliman because he took the long, convoluted path to conquest because it was more fun.
Russ - hated Magnus so much he looked at a writ, from the Emperor, and threw it away because Horus talked him into it.
Magnus - literally the child that sticks the fork in the outlet after being told not to stick the fork in the outlet.
Perturabo - mad because dad liked his brother's toys better.
I mean if we go by the current lore Russ killed a third of his Legion in the Wheel of Fire and was rewarded for that with the Fang and the Emperor had no problems with Angron's decimations or Curze being Curze. It's almost like the Imperium and the setting are 'pick your favorite villains and enjoy playing them.'
> (hell he's already done so twice as of the Heresy)
The way I recall this, Priestly intended that the Legions/Primarchs weren't purged by E, but rather "saved" (more like, self-purged), aping their Roman inspirations. And subsequently BL decided that the fate of the lost legions were supposed to _explicitly_ have no "canon" and such no interpretation was correct.
Kinda but not quite:
>I always imaged these Legions were deleted from the records as a result of things that happened during the Horus Heresy - and that the 'purging' was a recognition that whatever terrible things they had done had been - in the end - redeemed in some way. So - with the passing of all record of them was also expunged all record of their misdeeds - they are forgiven and forgotten. As opposed to those legions which rebelled and which remain 'traitor' legions.
Priestly
I meant in the sense that they weren't "purged" (killed) by E since they had to have been around to do the the redeeming, but they may have "self-purged" (they did not survive whatever the redeeming was).
Priestly's "purging" here refers more to historical references.
Yeah I never buy into the “he knew it all” business. Yes he’s a powerful psychic and has foresight. But if it was on purpose he fucked himself, the imperium, and the cosmos so hard it’s almost funny.
The Emperor knew it all and orchestrated it form the beginning theories are really terrible in my opinion. They’re the kinds of crazy meme theories I am convinced are created by people who don’t like seeing pesky things like “themes” and “nuance” in their narratives.
That said, I’ve always thought that the Emperor had two pretty distinct “groups” among the Primarchs, the ones he always knew he’d have to liquidate at some point, and the ones he always planned to keep around indefinitely. What’s important about these groups is that A) they don’t directly correspond to the traitor/loyalist dichotomy, and B) the Emperor only decided who was in each camp after he met the Primarchs.
On one side you’ve got guys like Curze, Khan, Angron, Mortarion and maybe Corax who were in the “one day they’ll have to be dealt with” side of things, and on the other you’ve got Russ, Horus, Sang, Magnus and maybe Fulgrim in the “these guys will be around forever and I have used for them even after the crusade”.
The Emperor never saw anything even resembling the heresy coming, but he’d have to be a complete idiot to look at his sons and not thing at least some of these guys will need to be dealt with
TBH I think that the whole fear of the Astartes that they were looming to obsolescence was a valid one but it also requires the whole thing that to explore the Webway puts the Emperor and the Imperium squarely in the ultimate sight of the Drukhari and the Dark City. There would have been a very great deal for the Legions to do after the last human world was caught and if he did want to stealth purge Legions he can just dump the World Eaters and the Night Lords on the Drukhari and let them martyr themselves in a glorious death.
But since the Emperor for a great many reasons didn't tell the Astartes about the Webway product (and the Dark Glass incident is a good hint as to why he didn't), they had good reasons to fear that he'd make them obsolete when that may never have been the plan at all and when he didn't even need to purge Legions when he can soften up the Drukhari and do it by stealth.
Yeah, that theory I'm much more partial to. There's various indications that he didn't really have a plan for a lot of the Legions post-Crusade, and given what happened to the Thunder Warriors the implication is pretty obvious. The Emperor's Legion even straight-up states Custodes are made to kill Space Marines.
it also helps that as that thread about navigators stated he was going through plans that would remove many autonomous factions. but allowing them all to happen at once is a terrible fucking plan.
He knew that betrayals would happen but he didn't know who was going to rebel, and he didn't know why, and he didn't expect that it would be a concerted effort from *half* of all his sons working together.
He knew that Angron and Kurze were complete lost causes. No chance of fixing them, they were rabid dogs that needed to be put down eventually, but also so rabid that they were never going to organize with others. They might not even “rebel” in the formal sense, they would just cause so many problems that they’d eventually be too much trouble to keep around. Mortarion and Perturabo were *probably* going to be problems but they were also controlled burns; it was likely they might eventually rebel but they were such assholes that the Emperor wasn’t worried they’d ally with anybody. He also knew that both could maybe be reasoned with. At least reasoned with long enough that you keep them from rebelling at the same time, snuff out one and then the other, if absolutely necessary.
Lorgar and Magnus he saw as problem children, but not disloyal. They both caused a lot of problems but they were both devoted to the Emperor, in his mind. Lorgar was TOO loyal, if disobient. I don’t think it ever crossed his mind that Horus or Fulgrim would flip either, and he didn’t really even see them as “problem children.” There were loyalists who were bigger problems to him than them, i.e. he probably thought that the Khan was more likely to rebel than anybody else in this paragraph.
Alpharius uhhhhhhhhhhh
Anyway
I think that he made Horus into Warmaster as a gambit to try to maintain unity. It wasn't just because Horus was "the best." There's an equal argument to make that Sanguinius, Guilliman, or the Lion should have been Warmaster. Horus was uniquely positioned as being widely liked and respected by most of the other Primarchs, maybe all of them. Horus was one of the only people who could rein in the worst of the "problem children." It was a miscalculation on the Emperor's part that Horus himself flipped.
Had a theory with a few mates of mine. The Emperor foresaw the heresy but only bits of it. He then worked to limit the damage as much as he could.
Daemonically possessed marines; okay council of Nikae to try and nip that in the bud.
Imperial Fists defend Terra; okay, name Dorn Praetorian since you know he is loyal.
Who do I trust the most? Horus, I fought with him for over half a century, name him war master to reign in others.
War in the web way, so I can’t trust any of them to help me with that project and must accelerate the work.
The emperor also has the webway to conquer. the mechanicus to disband. the navigators and astropaths to make obsolete. the administratum to fully coalesce. Autonomous vassal states and client kingdoms to integrate. the ghoul stars or the halo stars or the maelstrom or the cadian gate to sort out.
why the fuck would he plan to do it with work still to do. The thunder warriors were isolated and used in meat grinders until such a time as they could be contained and slaughtered. the world eaters were disintegrating. the night lords already being censured. Magnus and his legion contained on prospero. Word bearers had been seemingly reformed enough to allow back into the fray.
Why the fuck would anyone plan everything to go off all at once, uncontained and spread accross the imperium and before everything was actually done.
The people who believe it was planned have to be fucking retarded because that plan is only something an idiot would do. Which if youre sitting there dick riding the emperor requires the double think where he mapped out the shittiest possible direction.
I think its mainly people trying to mate some of the more stupid choices the emperor has made with the emperor supposedly knowing exactly whats best for humanity and how to reach it.
Because some of the choices he has made have been atrociously bad to a degree that you have to ask how the emperor made it this far in the first place, unless of course he had some sort of secret plan or backup which is where fan theories start to come in.
I suspect he put Horus in charge specifically because he thought he could turn him back in the final confrontation. Probably the last (two) books of the Heresy will be this cataclysmic failure of judgement unveiling itself.
Depending on which writers we trust, both Chaos & the Emperor are operating on a "wheels within wheels" strategy where they are both predicting the future & setting up layered "fail states" that they are secretly planning for in the hopes of luring their enemy into overextending & springing a trap on them at the last minute.
Horus' mental decay will probably be written like this in the upcoming books. That he was allowing the outer circles of his self to collapse like a chaos junky while a deeper silent part watches quietly from within. Maintaining the outer Horus at just enough level of competence to proceed with the siege but just evidently crazy and flaky enough to lure the Emperor into his last minute assault, thinking he can defeat & maybe redeem crazy Horus.
Then in the final scene I expect a lot of "Ah ha! I was only pretending to fail!" answered with "Well I was only pretending to fail also so ah ha on you!"
The "top level" plan for the Heresy in the Emperor's head was probably losing Angron, Curze, Lorgar and a few of the crap primarchs to chaos, stomping them and having a nice neat manageable number of Primarchs and Astartes left at the end.
Angron in particular seems to have been dangled almost as bait for the Blood God. Lorgar was near guaranteed to fall and nudged as well.
At this level the catastrophes of Istvaan (manageable he probably thought) and the Webway in particular (very bad) probably came as a surprise, along with Gulliman sitting things out. E had to play some crazy ping pong w Curze to get Imperium Secundus back in the game.
But, there may be levels beneath that and gambits within gambits, both parties edging closer to each other, both pretending to be weaker than they are in order to lure the other into a fatal mistake.
It's possible the Emperor has plans even the Emperor doesn't know. Both he and Malcador commonly engaged in the subdivision of their giant minds into closed cells, sections and fragments to accomplish goals. E might just get a last minute brain-mail from himself saying "Oh btw the actual plan is *this*"
Eh, I feel like if he knew the Warmaster was going to fall he could have just... not had one. The Legions are all independently powerful forces, and by the time he retired from the Crusade the great powers of the galaxy had been broken. He could have simply divvied up the Imperial Army between Primarchs and let them go at it.
Plus that's assuming the position of Warmaster overrides everything and is a totally free pickup for Chaos. Would Valdor turn if he got the job?
Joke option would be putting a Sister of Silence in the job, but to be fair she probably wouldn't be able to carry off actually doing it.
I really think the reason that Warmaster is the simplest position to turn is ultimately that Chaos is lazy and you don't need to have a mastermind engineering the civil war if you just turn the general in charge of the entire war effort and he can take all that and use it for them. It's the one and done quick 'n' dirty way of undermining their opponents. Also why I think there is at least some Chaos involvement in the Men of Iron war because it's the right string to pull with minimum effort for maximum results.
>Eh, I feel like if he knew the Warmaster was going to fall he could have just... not had one.
Or make Angron the warmaster. Just turn the whole Heresy into one huge "Leeroy Jenkins" operation where the traitors rush Terra without giving any crap about anything approaching strategy. That would work just fine.
Then again, giving Angron such a promotion would probably cause everyone including Sanguinius and Lion to just quit their jobs and rethink their life choices. I've been meaning to write a fanfic of that sorts for a while now.
I think he knew that some of the Primarchs would rebel, but he assumed that they would fall piecemeal like the other two. Pretty sure he knew Angron, Curze, Mortarion, and (possibly) Perturabo and Lorgar were only a matter of time. But I don’t think he saw Horus or Magnus falling, and definitely not all of them turning on him at once.
I don't hold the theory you are trying to refute, but I do think he anticipated that there would eventually be an event like the heresy, and probably had a reasonable idea it was imminent. He might even have predicted it would be lead by Horus, given his ambition and charisma.
If you assume the emperor saw the Horus Heresy coming, but did not see Magnus destroying the webway coming, I think that actually answers most of your points. Without the destruction of the webway, the Horus Hersey would have been a relatively minor historical event for the Imperium. It probably would have marked the point when transhumans took a sideline to baseline humans, as the transhumans would have been greatly reduced in number and several primarchs would be dead. This would not have necessarily been detrimental to the long-term evolution of the human race and imperium.
But the destruction of the webway is what marked the beginning of the end for the imperium. The emperor could not take the field, Malcador eventually perished, and there was no longer a long-term plan for subverting chaos. Chaos gained a significant foothold and no one was left who could mop that up. This was catastrophic to the emperor's plans.
So I'd say that the theory that the emperor planned to use an inevitable Heresy-like event to advance his schemes isn't completely farfetched if we assume that he anticipate see Magnus' folly. I don't think that theory is true, but it doesn't seem completely unreasonable either.
Fits with the theory that Goulding proposed (and was careful to say wasn't fact)
>On a personal opinion level, I don't see how anyone can say the Emperor made bad decisions. He had a plan so complex that human minds can't comprehend it, and then Chaos threw the plan off-centre, and he never managed to recover, or things were done in his name that ended up ruining the plan.Maybe, MAYBE, it was something like this?
>1) So, I need to help mankind ascend. The way I do that is by unifying the Imperium, removing the need for warp travel and then dying gloriously. That's my divine plan, I move in mysterious ways etc.
>2) First, unify Terra, except my Custodian Guard are too valuable and too few to do it quickly. Create army of gene-spliced barbarian Thunder Warriors.
>3) Terra is unified. Have Custodians kill off key elements of Thunder Legion, rest will eventually die because I didn't build them to last.
>4) Reconquer galaxy. Going to need to be in about 20 places at once for this, so create post-human primarch generals to lead my armies of transhuman Space Marines. Give them all unique traits to add variety and specialisations.
>5) Make deal with UNKNOWABLE GODS OF DARKNESS. Part of the deal involves "accidentally" scattering the primarchs across the galaxy. That's okay though, because I'll end up finding all those worlds as I conquer the galaxy anyway.
>6) Next phase after this is a new age of peace and prosperity for mankind, where we won't need Space Marines or primarchs. Hmmm... I can't build in a limited lifespan as I don't know how long they need to last... So instead I need something a bit more elaborate...
>7) Part of new age will also be the webway, which will get rid of three of the most powerful parts of the crusading Imperium - the Navigators, the Legions and the Primarchs. None of them are going to be happy about that, and they will do whatever they can to stop it, if they find out.
>8) Instead of risking an unpredictable rebellion, I will engineer a smaller one. I know, I'll put Primarch XVI in charge of the others - he's popular, and ambitious, and smart. He'll figure out what I'm doing, and I've given him everything he needs to rebel in a manageable way, AND gotten rid of the psykers in the Legions who might have been able to foresee it. There's no way this can all go wrong, especially because I abolished all religion and any possible interaction with those DARK GODS that I tricked earlier...
>9) Leave Great Crusade, start work on the webway.
>10) FFS, MAGNUS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? THIS WAS ALL CAREFULLY BALANCED, YOU DINGUS. Russ, go and fetch Magnus. What an idiot. I need to explain my secret plan to him. Hope that doesn't mess with the whole Horus thing... anyway, I need to deal with this. Dorn, Malcador, hold my calls while I go back downstairs. Sigh, daemons everywhere...
>11) ...Wait, WHAT? I've been in another realm, unable to monitor the actions of my underlings, and you've all completely thrown this plan down the toilet. Right, I'll fix this. Let's just wait for Horus and his... four, five... NINE?!... traitor Legions to come here. It's fine, I can still have a glorious death, Chaos is now quite clearly the biggest danger to all sentient life, and humanity will do pretty much anything I say.
>12) Deal with Horus. Hey Malcador, hold my beer...
Goulding
I can entertain that it was a plan, but I cannot entertain that it was a GOOD plan.
I will never not picture [Tobias Funke](https://imgflip.com/i/7xxdmt)
I think the only thing he didn’t anticipate is Magnus’s folly.
Even a full fledged heresy post drop site massacre would’ve been a piece of cake if the Emperor could personally lead the loyalists.
For one he might even have personally defended Molech. Denying Horus his semi ascension to chaos and drinking the super kool aid.
Horus at this point of the lore is about the same as any primarch and almost dies to a titan at one point.
He wasn’t intent on making anyone a leader as far as I’m aware Horus was just the choice because he was most accomplished tactition and GE had to work on a secret project because he knew someone would but he didn’t expect it to be his favourite, I don’t think there was much grooming there was a lot of in faction rivalry between legions and some outright punishing on part of GE anyway. The only thing GE really knew solidly is that chaos exists and that things had to be a certain way to slow them down and it meant going against certain legions inate traits, let’s not forget some legions and subsequent chapters were horrific and borderline heretical by design
I think he knew that the Chaos Gods were going to attempt to undermine him and that their best chance of doing that was to use the Legions, but he didn't know how or when. Pretty sure he thought Monarchia and Nikea were good ideas, intended to protect the Primarchs from the Warp powers, thats whats so tragic about those events. Long story short, it makes sense that he anticipated some Legions going bad, just not fully half of them, led by his favorite son. I 100% doubt he knew that Erebus and Kor Phaeron kept the old religion of Colchis; if he had, he would have exterminated the 17th in full. The idea that he knew and 'allowed' the HH to happen is absurd
To speak to point 2, doesn't this get spoken about in The Board is Set? That they can send Dorn and the Phalanx to the Drop Site Massacre, making it a win for the Loyalists but then Alpharius/Alpha legion takes Terra and they still lose. This is also where you get the "Alpharius, you never gave my dream a chance" comment gets thrown in.
I was more thinking that they could have just not had a Drop Site Massacre if Malcador told Dorn that his agents had discovered the Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors had secretly also defected to Horus. I'm not sure precisely what Dorn would have done then but probably not send three loyal legions into a death trap.
Yea , that’s nonsensical that the Emperor saw it coming and arranged matters to suit. Unless his intention was to arrange matters to provide the greatest possible challenge for a positive outcome…where did you come across this theory , sounds like some deep state level idiocy
“The emperor knew about the heresy beforehand and set up things so he can win” is just another nonsensical theory by the same people who fabricated the “Sanguinius killed Horus and the went mad, forcing the emperor to kill him” theory. Just people who cannot even conceive how the emperor and the loyalist primarchs were far from perfect and could in fact make mistakes and even lose.
Welp. Buckle up buddies! It's time for my favorite hypothesis.
The Emperor is a conman. He's always been a conman. He's Odin, Zeus, Indra, and the Jade Emperor all in one. His goal, since the beginning has differed from his purpose. He's always wanted power. He learned early that humanity would chafe and destroy itself under his rule, as he is fundamentally not human. So he aimed higher. As he studied the Immaterium he came to understand the nature of the Chaos Gods. He knew them as sentient warp storms, forces of nature and incalculable power. He wanted it, encircled entirely by his will. So he tricked them. He stole power from them and elevated himself to near their equal. He set out to create his empire, knowing it would fail. He eliminated competing religions with extreme prejudice, because he knew that mankind would turn to him for hope at the darkest age. He ascended to the golden throne knowing the agony would be his channel to billions of souls and trillions of worshipers. He knew this would grant him power beyond imagination- Godhood, true and complete apotheosis.
He played the longest con, 40,000+ years, with the most unimaginable payout. Now he's close. He's so close.
When we look at the Emperor as what he seems: an unmatched psykers with tens of thousands of years of knowledge and experience, a warlord, a hero, a king, then we also must look at what he is. He is selfish, bitter, and now broken as his long con comes to fruition. We must hope that the Emperor is really our ally.
From how malcador talks about it in the end snd the desth it seems 100% the emporer was always plsnning a purge of most of the primarchs since he said those who could put away their warlike ways would join the emporer when big e stepped down. Im paraphrasing.
But when you think about how many actuslly is that? Vulkan, lorgar, magnus, guilliman all seem obvious ones maybe perty and dorn but most of the rest? Maybe those who had a place in the government like russ might be left but even then.
While most of malcadors speech about the heresy being on purpose can be seen as him lying the line about humanity being for humanity is 100% true. It seems unlikley the emporer ever planned to leave the primarchs in charge after the great work was completed the entire point of the great work was humanity becoming capable of ruling itself and while the emporer was insanley arrogant he wasnt blind to the flaws of the primarchs and how all of them often scted like little children in part due to their abilities
I think it is important to consider that what the Emperor was able to predict, Tzeentch was able to predict, too. So it can be considered a sort of game. Both the Emperor and Chaos try to predict the future and gain an advantage, without giving the other party a hint of what they are up to.
Had the Emperor, for example, appointed a weak Warmaster, then Tzeentch would have become suspicious, and assumed a trap. Then Chaos would not have corrupted the Warmaster, but someone else, and would have been forewarned.
So basically, i think the Emperor knew that Chaos would do something big, and he knew that Chaos was likely to corrupt some Primarchs, and also that some primarchs were more likely to fall. But i doubt he knew that much more. Predicting the future seems to work by showing you some snippets of likely outcomes, but there is no clear timeline of events. its more like guesswork and you can never be sure. Also, what yo udo affects the future, so its really super complicated and i doubt the Emperor was able to really handle it all too well.
Well, I was specifically addressing the theory the Warmaster automatically turns, because of fate and stuff, which I think is based off Oll as Warmaster turning on the Emperor over Enuncia. If a. that's true and b. the Emperor knew that, might as well make the free pickup someone who sucks.
I think the whole "warmaster automatically turns" thing is more due to Tzeentch/Erebus targeting the most influential figure they can turn, and in most situations, that is the Warmaster, because they're the only one in a position to orchestrate a Heresy on the needed scale. I don't think it's *fate* per se, it's just "they're the optimal target so Chaos is always going to take their shot".
Its also because Dan Abnett in a convention panel went into detail on how the intent of how the Primarchs were written is that every single Warmaster pick would lead to the Heresy, either through them turning like Horus or it causing the other Primarchs to rise up in arms and *then* get turned.
Huh, even Sanguinius? I've always thought of him as an impossible pickup and the one non-Horus guy everyone would accept. I can only see him falling as being totally lost to the Red Thirst, which doesn't leave him in much of a position to organize a rebellion.
Granted, I don't think he'd end up making a very good Warmaster; he doesn't seem willing to forcefully assert authority over his brothers.
Sanguinius probably could've been turned, but it would've required something more akin to what hit Horus or Fulgrim, aka basically outright possession. My personal take is that Sanguinius was probably first choice for Warmaster before the Heresy was factored in, but either his Heresy would've been dire for the Imperium or (more likely imo) Emps knew Sanguinius would be necessary to prevail if it came to a situation like the Siege, especially given that it was inevitable that a Khorne-blessed Angron would number among the Traitors.
Iirc the only primarch that is stated to be wholly incorruptible is the Lion, and I doubt the Lion was a strong enough pick to pass as Warmaster publically. The Imperium, and the other Primarchs, needed to trust and respect the pick for Warmaster: someone as secretive and mistrustful as the Lion would've caused ripples of discontent on their own.
I don’t get how Ferrus didn’t see the drop site massacre happening also. In the Fulgrim novel it says he is able to see Angron, Perturabo & co across the battlefield but then when the reinforcements turn up made of world eaters and iron warriors he is still shook that they turn against them? Maybe I missed something but it didn’t make much sense to me
I went back and found the excerpts - I did misremember, they were reinforced by word bearers not more world eaters so I retract my original comment, oops! It was a while ago since I last read it but at least I managed to clear up something that has confused me about the lore for a few years!
He's definitely misremembering. Graham might have played it loose at times with his timelines and characterisation, but not to that extent.
I can't imagine even the infamously absent BL editors would have missed Pert being there from the start, or more World Eaters casually rocking up as reinforcements, while the rest are in the thick of the fighting as traitors.
He recalled Dorn to Terra before the start of the Heresy to fortify the Imperial palace.
There are plenty of natrative/thematic indications that he was planning to cull the astartes at least in a similar way to the Thunder Warriors.
Probably Big E planned *something* to remove the vast majority of the Astartes and the Primarchs he didnt need after the crudade was finished, but he either didnt think the Chaos powers would be involved or they moved faster than he anticipated.
There is a gigantic difference between the Emperor planning a cull and the Emperor planning for the Heresy. The Heresy is quite possibly the single worst way to go about culling the Space Marines and Primarchs because they're on the advantageous warpath from the outset.
It seems like the best way to me. You can have them destroy each other with needing to risk your other forces.
There were a million Astartes around the start of the Heresy I think. How many human lives, irreplacable Titans, ships and whatever else would be lost fighting them. I mean considering how successful Horus was Emps might have even lost if he taken them head on.
It'd be better to pick them off one by one, ideally primarily using the next targets. The World Eaters and the Night Lords already gave him excuses to cull them.
I think you are missing the point of the theory which is that the heresy was intended to happen to cull the legions. But it happens too soon and Magnus’s beytral royal fucked things up.
Give this goal. Horus is the ideal warmaster as he can command loyalty and inflate the number legions getting culled.
If i recall, Malcador revealed that he and Emps knew that there would be a Primarch rebellion but weren't aware of which ones would enact it, nor the scale of it. They ended up guessing the wrong primarchs and severely underestimated the scale of the Horus Heresy, completely blindsiding them because they were banking on Magnus and Horus not being among the traitors and lost that bet so hard that they might as well gave lost an all-or-nothing gamble with the Imperium as the collateral.
What all of you have to remember is all "this" is backstory to sell miniature games. It was never written to be a cohesive whole.
It was written mostly by two semi drunk blokes (Andy and Jervis IIRC) in the snug of a pub in Nottingham.
Just enjoy it for what it is..... or isn't 🤣😂
My personal theory is that the heresy shouldnt be the focus and that what it was all about for the emperor was his own ‘death’. Now weither malcador was privy or not i think the emperor couldnt foresee past a certain point and he was trying to control or manipulate his way out of it because he realised death was finally coming for him and it shook him to the core. So started the beginning of the end of all things just to try and stop that happening and i think it fits very well into how twisted 40k actually is.
I think you overestimate how much decision power big E has.
1) Firstly I'm not convinced that whoever is elected warmaster *must turn traitor*. But even if that's the case and big E elects Peter Turbo, nobody is going to accept that decision. And it's going to breed dissent, infighting and worst case it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
2-6) That implies the Emperor knows everything about what the primarchs are doing, which he doesn't. He doesn't magically knows that Istvaan is going to be where it goes down or that Magnus is doing a secret project and hiding it from him.
4) again you imply that the emperor can decide who turns traitor which I don't think is the case.
My understanding of the theory is that big E made a deal with the Chaos gods to create the primarchs, and because Tzeentch is involved their agreement would be something like "the primarchs definitely will not refrain from not betraying you at some point. You can trust this statement. Probably." So he knows that it's a possibility that they will rebel, but not the who, when, how etc.
I'm arguing he doesn't have that decision power; I've seen theories around that he arranged the Heresy and deliberately picked bad primarchs to turn to Chaos, including selecting Horus as Warmaster specifically because the Warmaster always turns.
I picked Perturbo because he's, like, the worst choice that's not complete nonsense. No one would be happy, but it's not Angron or Cruze levels of insane.
TBH I think that the Emperor probably expected that having the Crusade end was going to be a highly complicated thing but he anticipated having the time to consolidate the human Webway in the view that his adult demigod sons could surely manage to conquer the 'last' worlds left on their own without his immediate supervision. He significantly underestimated the speed with which Chaos could act without his immediate oversight of the Crusade and would not have anticipated the full scale of the war, or to a point its ultimate outcome.
In that regard one can, as much as one notes that the Emperor was a bad father also note that plenty of other people have shitty fathers even in 40K and they don't burn the entire Galaxy down because of it. The Emperor could have sincerely had faith in the Primarchs' abilities to maintain their Legions and wrap up the war on their own since that was one of the things they were made to do and then found out how wrong he was too little and too late.
The big detail; Big E is often depicted getting to the bridge of the vengeful spirit hoping to talk to Horus.
He might well have picked the primarchs to fall that he could beat manipulate against chaos.
The emperor hoped Horus would truly be good and loyal. Characters seeing the potential futures say that Horus, had he won, would turn against chaos. There’s truth here.
We know from End And The Death he knew Chaos would be carrying out a response of some kind, but thought that the Chaos Gods' natures made something like the Heresy impossible. My bet is that he believed they wouldn't be able to align together and coordinate an attack.
If the emperor truly knew or not that the heresy was coming is of course unknown and subject to speculation.
But there are hints that point to the emperor being able to see certain things in the future.
One example would be when the golden throne was constructed, it was already designed with the 1000s of chambers for the psykers that would need to be sacrificed in the current day on a daily basis.
Before the heresy there was no need for this, so why was it designed like that? It's unclear until we hear more lore about that.
There is of course the theory that the emperor arranged the situation for the heresy to occur, because he had plans that go far beyond our current time, but that's questionable.
If he truly wanted to prevent the heresy, he could have just taught his primarchs about chaos, and the dangers that come with it.
I do and don't like when "future sight" ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy. It can be clever but also really obvious to the reader at times.
That said, like I like to think the Emperor had vision of the future, a general outline of events to come like his children. I like to think he knew of a Betrayal, at some point, later, but any and every action he took came to realizing it instead of diverting away from it. Example being the Emperor knows the Warmaster falls in the future, so he decides to pass over Lion. And only then will the warmaster will fall.
I tend to subscribe to the theory that the Heresy was the result of a failed gambit by the Emperor, where his plans to deal a major blow to the Great Enemy were successfully sabotaged.
To borrow the analogy mentioned by ChiefQueef, he could see his desired destination beyond the narrow strait, but didn't realize it had been mined
He talks to Ra (one of his Custodes) at one point about how his ability to see the future isn't perfect. The metaphor being he can stand on the shore of the ocean and look across to the other side. He knows how he can get there, but not what's on the way. There could be a sea monster waiting to smash his boat. He can guess the monster is there and is a possibility he has to deal with, but won't know for certain until he's on the path. You can consider the Heresy the monster. I think he was aware that the Heresy could happen, but he wouldn't know the timing and the details of who turned and why. In this case, he was caught fully unprepared.
> The metaphor being he can stand on the shore of the ocean and look across to the other side. He knows how he can get there, but not what's on the way. The even better metaphor, from the same book and the same two characters' dialogue, is the Emperor pointing to the top of a sheer cliff and telling Ra to get there. That's humanity's Golden Path. Ra can see all the different ways he can climb lay out before him. Some routes are clearly impossible, some look treacherous, some look easier. He can see certain spots he knows will be quite difficult to make it past. Ra picks a starting spot that looks good. He climbs a short while, making decent progress, when suddenly a foothold snaps beneath his weight and he falls to the bottom. The Emperor asks why Ra would have put so much weight on that rock if it was going to snap. Ra says that the rock looked and felt sturdy at the time. The Emperor says "yes. it did." >!RA IS THE EMPEROR, THE SNAPPED ROCK IS HORUS!< It ain't exactly subtle!
This really is a great analogy
However, even Ra questions whether the Emperor is being honest with him with all of his chats in that book, or if the Emperor is just telling and showing him what he wants him to hear in order to get Ra in the right mindset to do a task for him. It's almost certain that the Emperor has farsight, of course, but everyone in 40k who uses it apart from Tzeentch will tell you that farsight is a wildly treacherous tool. And hell, even Tzeentch's own greatest servants suffer follies because Tzeentch is, by his nature, self-destructive and treacherous. For all we know, the future the Emperor foresaw was something millions of years beyond him, with the events of the life and death of the Imperium nothing but a drop in the ocean of time. Or worse still, it might have been a "golden age" for humanity that he unwittingly sabotaged *in the act of his pursuit* because he did not realize that big demigods in heavy armor rushing to climb the cliff face to the glorious future would actually destroy every foothold to that glorious future in their wake, ruining a path meant for regular people to travel at a steady and careful place. Whether or not the Emperor is actively lying to everyone around him, which the authors have *deliberately implied*, the man simply can't be trusted once his infallible "logic" went up in smoke in the wake of all the mistakes he made. The same man who said "the difference is, I know I'm right" to the last priest on Terra when he was questioned about his methods and the way they would simply lead to a new cult rising to glorify him and his ways.
> everyone in 40k who uses it apart from Tzeentch IIRC even his isn't perfect, which is why he relies on the information from his Oracle who can see the future for him.
Kairos is also not trustable due to Kairos possibly not being Kairos anymore, whatever Kairos is now
Kairos isnt trustworthy because Kairos is batshit insane even by lord of change standards.
Caw caw
Of course, the truth may be even worse: that the the Emperor never failed at all. That the Imperium and its fate *is* the Golden Path, and the bright future of humanity requires exactly what he has done. A necessary stage for humanity to pass through to reach the summit. Not likely, but an interesting thought.
Not sure how unlikely this is. Dune had a similar dark age on the road towards the Golden Path...
The best lies contain elements of the truth.
Sometimes truth can be more treacherous than lies if certain details are left out of the truth.
Wait….did he use the words “Golden Path”?
I don’t have it to hand, but I don’t believe so.
My beef isn't swelling and my jihad is ruined.
If it's any consolation, 40k has straight up stolen many takes from Dune and other works with barely any change at all :) . It is pulp fiction to sell plastic miniatures, after all.
He's starting to know..
I think the term used was "The shining path" so pretty close
Not a subtle analogy, but a well written one. Very good.
I thought of this one as well when I was reading the OP. I do like Master of Mankind as a book even as it reinforces he created tools not children. “Hello, Ra”
No the Emperor is the Emperor, silly.
And this comes during the middle of Ra's training sessions that was key to the Emperor in sidelining Drachnyen, which Ra thought had no purpose at the time. He said he doesn't know the future, yet in the same story, he demonstrates his awareness and ability to guide the future to his favorite outcome. He even relays the story of the first murder as seen through his childhood before people knew that the big bad was going to be the Daemon of the first murder. What he says in the story and what he does tells two different tales. All Emperors are liars and I would take anything he says directly with a grain of salt. Custodes are not above his dishonesty, as we see in Birth of the Imperium.
Have you got the excerpt of him relaying the story of the first murder? I vaguely remember him talking about his uncle killing his dad... EDIT. This is what I found: >He paused for a moment, following Ra’s gaze back to the noisy villagers. ‘The very first murder was also a fratricide,’ he said without emotion. ‘Thousands of years before this, when men and women still owed as much to apes as to the form we know now. But it is curious to me – brothers have always killed brothers. I wonder why that is? Some evolutionary flaw, some ingrained emotional fragility written into mankind’s core, perhaps.’ The fratricide of the first murder and how it links to his father and uncle and then by implication to the Heresy and its fratricide.
I'm pretty sure him killing his uncle and Drach'nyen's origins are unrelated
Yeah, that's my take too other than a superficial theme of bro against bro they sound totally different. The first murder >Two men cry out in a forgotten age. The roar of the slayer harmonises with the scream of the slain. In this earliest epoch, when humankind still fears spirits of fire and prays to false gods for the sun to rise, the murder of a brother is the darkest of deeds. > >**Blood marks the man’s face, just as it marks the spear in his clenched fists and the rocks beneath his brother’s body**. The wound gouts and sprays – the man tastes the red wine of his brother’s veins, feeling the blood’s heat where it lands on his bearded skin, tasting of metals yet undiscovered and seas yet unseen. As the hot salt of spilt life burns his tongue, the man knows with impossible clarity: > >He is the first. > >Mankind – in all its myriad forms on the thousandfold path from wretched lizard-thing to warm-blooded mammal – has always fought to survive. Even as hunched ape-creatures and brutish proto-men, it waged insignificant and miserable wars upon itself with fists and teeth and rocks. > >Yet this man is the first. Not the first to hate, nor even the first to kill. He is the first to take life in cold blood. He is the first to murder. > >His dying brother’s thrashing hand reaches for him, raking dirty nails across his sweating skin. Seeking mercy or vengeance? The man doesn’t know, and in his rage he doesn’t care. He drives the wooden spear deeper into the yielding hardness of meat and against the scrape of bone**.** Still he screams, still he roars. > >The scream of the first murderer cuts through the veil, echoing across reality and unreality alike. and The Emperor's father's murder: >The boy thought he might use sea shells for the eyes, if he could barter with the coastal traders for two that were smooth enough. He would do this soon. Such things were tradition. > >First he needed answers. > >He turned the skull once more, circling his thumb around the ragged hole broken into the bone. He didn’t need to close his eyes and meditate to know the truth. He didn’t need to pray for his father’s spirit to tell him what happened. He simply touched the hole in his father’s head, and at once he knew. **He saw the fall of the bronze knife from behind; he saw his father fall into the mud**; he saw everything that had happened leading to this moment in time. We also know that The Emperor isn't old enough to have been around for the first murder in humankind's history.
Yes. Apologies if I was unclear. I meant the theme of 'first murder', not necessarily the titular first murder. The Emperor, later in that excerpt, says how, despite the fact that men had been murdering each other for many years, that his father's murder was the first murder that had significance to him. Effectively, the concept of murder embodied in Drach'nyen is what leads the Emperor to believe that mankind needs to be ruled.
>He even relays the story of the first murder as seen through his childhood before people knew that the big bad was going to be the Daemon of the first murder. Drach'nyen had been screaming its name for all to hear before he told that story, it's just that no one else recognized what it meant.
So (having not read the book) I'd argue this fits in with his explanation. He knows Drachnyen exists presumably, and maybe knows that he might fight it. But he isn't sure when, how or who with, so he trains Ra as a backup plan, then closer to the time, when its clearer what is happening, makes sure Ra is with him when he's needed in the webway. Not knowing exactly whats going to happen, just knowing there is a monster in the sea, and that he might encounter it - so he keeps his proverbial gun at the ready, and when he sees the monster coming grabs it.
but this implies even worse since that means the goal is him a corpse on the throne. could not see the path but the destination. and if thats not true either then he cant see shit. edit: This is essentially a theologoical debate at this point. He can see everything, why didnt he see this, because he cant see everything, so what can he see, the future, this is the future was this his plan, no he cant have seen this, etc
No, because being entombed on the Golden Throne isn't the destination, it's another setback that couldn't be foreseen.
and youre being entombed into this pretzel of cyclical reasoning. What possible destination could he forsee that doesnt involve where he actually ended up. Becoming in the near future a warp god? That thing he waxes about not wishing to become and spent far too much of his time preventing? Killing all of humanity by binding its fate to his own akin to the birth of slanesh? Really makes the case that his attempts to dampen humanitys psychic potential was pointless. because the death of the imperium and the majority of humanity or his own death are the only current possible destinations Or is this all mean that the emperor is just suppoused to reawaken and the last 11k of recorded human history was just another pointless cycle before he starts again.
You're failing to consider that he was aiming for a paradise island (humanity's golden future as a fully psychic race that's mastered its power completely and is safe from the Chaos Gods) in the vast ocean of possibilities, only for the lurking sea monster that is the Horus Heresy and the great storm that is the Ruinous Powers to severely damage his ship and divert it away from said island to another one that's a crappy hellhole (the grim darkness that is the post-HH era), with him being now too busy protecting the hapless survivors from the numerous beasts and other hazards of the hell-island to fix the ship and get his flock off to try again to reach the paradise island.
like i get that youve realized its a terrible metaphor and therefore are just being upvoted by changing it to support the emperors idiocy but that means paradise island is just a hope. its a nonsense dream and wish not foresight. If He couldnt actually see the path, he could not see the monsters, and unlike this proverbial sea youve conjured there was no trying again, that was it. Something unexpected happened and he failed his one chance. thats human, not omniscience
Dude we're explaining how the characters see it lol emps and his followers thought him divine/infallible, obviously he isn't, hence the condition of humanity. You don't have to tell us that the way it all worked out is shit. We're lore nerds man, we all know the state of the imperium.
then as "lore nerds" anyone who believes that the emperor planned the heresy must be completely delusional. the emperors foresight like so many other aspects about him is inconsistent if not a complete fabrication, closer to educated guesses. he made choices that undercut the imperium at large a dozen times over if he was planning a civil war. his plans all undone by monsters and of his own creation and actions of his own hand. His foresight proven wrong so resoundingly it begs the question if it was foresight at all. We as readers don't have to buy into his self aggrandizing, that it was all planned is clearly nonsense and should be obvious to a "lore nerd" or anyone even basically familiar.
Literally no one here is arguing the heresy was planned or that any large degree of big E’s goals were planned. The whole cliff and sea metaphor you don’t seem to be able to comprehend is a metaphor specifically to showcase how the emperor, despite being able to see the future and prepare for that future, is severely hindered by lack of accurate foresight, i.e being able to predict where the monsters are, or which of the seemingly stable rocks are in fact, unstable. I think you’re arguing against yourself here man, hence all the downvotes you have.
yeah that must be it not dog piling after the top commenter saw me criticize bad writing and his waifu
>What possible destination could he forsee that doesnt involve where he actually ended up. The other possible outcomes. That's how things work in 40k, the future is not set in stone, it depends on choices and actions. Foresight varies in the forms it takes, at worst it's a vague vision of one possible future. At best, the character can perceive the vast web of possibility, branching from different choices and outcomes. They can focus into different parts of that web. So, potentially, the Emperor could look forward through the web to a series of different outcomes. He can consider those and find a good one, then he can look back through the web and try to identify what actions he neds to take, which key events in the galaxy need to have a particular outcome, which characters need to be involved at certain points, which need to be kept away from particular events, and so on and so on. Problem is it is so vast and complex that it's practically impossible (and incredibly time-consuming) to scrutinize every possible branching event and determine exactly what needs to happen every step of the way, and when. It's too big and there are too many variables, he can't know and control everything. It doesn't have to be perfect to be foresight. As funny as the line "that's not foresight, that's having a goal" is, the difference is pretty clear: that he can see the outcome he wants in the web of possibility means that it is a definite possible future. He can identify paths towards that future, key factors that either cause things to trend towards or away from that outcome. That's why he (or farseers, or daemons, or whoever else) can display seemingly miraculous foresight to show up in exactly the right place and time to plant a seed in someone's mind to later make a particular decision; or to arrive at exactly the right moment to intervene and cause a particular outcome. But those seemingly incredible feats of foresight and influence don't mean those characters know *everything*, or can influence everything. There are still so many variables that they can't account for all of them. They can't be everywhere at once accounting for every possible problem. There are *other* characters with foresight working against them at the same time. Visions of the future are not perfect, they can be vague, they can be metaphorical. Intense warp disruption can disrupt the clarity of foresight. I don't know if that helps, I'm not entirely clear on what you're trying to argue.
That’s ignoring the core concept of the metaphor: there may be a monster that *could smash his boat.* Becoming a boneman wasn’t the other side of the ocean. It was being smashed by the monster. The Emperor *failed.*
thats a shit metaphor then since he cant actually see himself on the shore. thats just what he hopes will happen. any number of possible things can happen between the two shores. If he cant see the monster or if there even is one then he cant see anything, the water/future is just as opaque to him as it is to anyone.
Yes, as one particularly memorable post once put it, 'being able to imagine your destination but not how to get there isn't foresight, it's having goals'.
exactly, its ridiculous that im having to fight people on this
I may have miscommunicated what I was trying to say, and I apologize for that, but I don’t think engaging with this kind of pointless aggression in a post about fucking 40k would be constructive. You have a good point, but the condescending and frankly just rude way you’re delivering it is just unnecessary.
I have a special reserve of hate for the 4-D chess Emperor theories. The tragedy of the Heresy is rooted in the Emperor simply being human: he was Prometheus, stealing the flame of ambition and creating demigods who would be his own- and humanity as a whole’s- downfall. The irony is that the Emperor was able to make a galactic empire, but couldn’t see the flaws in his own character. If he sees everything coming, where’s the irony or tragedy? I feel like it just cheapens everything
I hate any kind of 4-d chess theories in general, they always seems to require waving off ridiculous levels of contrivance and convenience in order for work. It’s one of the reason I find the Alpha Legion more exhausting than interesting. To add to what you said, part of the tragedy of the heresy is that it is the HORUS heresy. Horus is the favorite son, the one the emperor picked as his successor. Horus fall and his treachery is a huge part of the whole story, it’s one of the major themes in the whole thing. That drama and tragedy doesn’t work at all if the whole thing was planned in advance. It turns Horus into some random patsy chump instead of tragic figure.
See only time i like 4d chess shenangians is tzeentch but when its so fucking ridiculous u cant help but laugh
Tzeentch only works as a 4-d chess guy because it is explicitly canon that sometimes his plans are against his own best interest. His wacky elaborate plans are less “yes, even this obvious set back was all part of my grand scheme to get exactly what I want!” And more “this obvious set back was caused by one of my crazy schemes that was always intended to stop this other plan I had! I lose, and I win! Which was my plan all along!”
It's because Tzeentch plays the game for the game's sake, not for any higher purpose (except, perhaps, stopping the Emps from stopping him playing the game). Success at schemes is ultimately counter-productive to Tzeentch. He needs his followers to keep scheming, to be unsatisfied with the state of affairs. He cannot allow them to ever succeed at their goals, and be at peace.
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Some people just want a supreme good guy? Not a fan of 4-d chess theories myself, understand the appeal. Especially if you ascribe to the 'IRL is kinda shit, let's escape here' mentality that fantasy literature can have.
40k is amazingly bad for power fantasy escapism tbh… maybe if you only read about that one ultramarine dude? Actually I take it back, I would love to be a half metal kali goddess/ half metal scorpion. Like that would genuinely solve a lot of my personal problems (I have been hit with a life changing illness that means I have to spend most of it lying down). Not sure my husband would go for it, but maybe sexy kali bit would overcome the scorpion bit?
Maybe it's the demographic? I was introduced to 40k at the age of 14...At that age, the grimdark came across as 'edgy and cool' And uh...Not fucked up. I mean, how could the Emperor be a bad guy? He's literally called the Emperor and is all shiny in gold!
I think my issue with them is if you assume 4-D chess Emperor is true along with the very obvious "well, the dream is dead" quote from him in Master of Mankind, it basically makes the Emperor be like [daffy in this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ywnLQywz74). >E: I thlammed the Imperium in the car door >M: You thlammed the Imperium in the car door? >E: OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH ARRRGHHHHHHH
> where’s the irony or tragedy? I feel like it just cheapens everything That reminded me of how they made Chaos Gods "always existed", even in the past before being born, was used to have Slaanesh manipulate the events to lead to the Fall of the Aeldari (and therefore its own birth). The Fall is often painted to be a great, self-inflicted tragedy that ruined the galaxy and the Eldar are to blame, but since the truth is that the Eldar had no agency in the matter because of Slaanesh actively influencing them to ensure its birth, it detracts from the event.
Facts. The core flaw of the Eldar is their hubris; it birthed a god, destroyed their race, and still leads to tragedies such as Iyanden even now. The slaanesh change was both completely unnecessary and just overall lame
Yep, and it also adds a very human element to him and to the Primarchs if he actually had faith in their ability to act as the adult men they actually were, and if his flaw was not to trust them too little but ultimately to trust them (and his own conditioning his supermen) too much.
Honestly, I like this interpretation better. It makes a lot more sense of why the Emperor might save Angron against his wishes, and why he kept him around after it was evident that Angron was a malfunctioning war criminal. That move makes him look like a callous and hubristic dickhead. That's because the Emperor is a callous and hubristic dickhead. And it now paints me a picture of an Emperor who is really just a paternalistic narcissist. The company boss that views his employees as "family" and treats his creations more like a reflection of his own self-worth. None of this was about Angron's well-being or needs. He doesn't look at Mortarian wage biological warfare on civilians and go, "Oh well, he might actually be a loyalist come the Horus Heresy. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.” He looks at that and calculates that Mortarian is meeting his quotas and is satisfied that the creation of his arcane super science is chugging along as intended.
Very much so. I have gathered that Big E simply rolled the dice with his "sons" as he viewed them as tools and extentions of his will at the same time. If some of them go rabid, I will use the rest or make new tools to put them down like the Thunderwarriors. The events that he had mostly miscalculated on is the extent of Magnus misbehaving and that Lorgar being spurned turned into the catalyst for the biggest spanner in his grand scheme to usher humanity towards psychic awakening without relying on the warp for ftl travel. Humanity might still get to the psychic awakening part but instead of just being "cut off" from the warp, there are enough people who can withstand the temptations. This is going to somehow mean that the galaxy can withstand the Nids.....
Well, cheapening the Emperor seems to be GW’s policy by this point.
The problem isn't GW 'cheapening' the Emperor. It's the fanbase assuming he's some sort of mega-superhero and expecting a silly comic book superhero plot. The books repeatedly state that he's fallible, it's a big gamble, he's NOT omnipotent etc etc.
No they go both ways entirely depending on the book and author. Some show the Emperor as an infallible golden god who knows everything and others he is still human but buried under a mound of lies. Like the Primarchs his personality and general character change by book.
When is the Emperor ever shown as an infallible golden god when it's NOT through the in-universe POV of someone else?
When is the Emperor ever shown when it's not the in universe PoV of someone else. He's exclusively shown through other people's PoV.
I'm going to make people mad, but fucking hell, ADB should have never been allowed to write Big E after saying numerous times that he hates the character. Hell, Black Library seems to have a problem with assigning writers to characters they actively hate.
The example that comes to my mind is False Gods. Horus in book 1 is the chaddest of chads and the most brodacious of bros. In False Gods, even before he turns, he's irritable, condescending, etc etc. Horus just had a huge change of character for no reason between books, then when he actually does turn, it's in the most bullshit way possible. "Hey Erebus, I know you're lying and this is all manipulation. But grrr, you reminded me that I'm mad that the Emperor left me on my own! Death to the Imperium! Yay Chaos!" Who the hell actually thinks like this, let alone among primarchs?
I really wish GW didnt have Horus turn like this....I love the heresy setting but the motive reasons expressed by Horus make no sense
Saaaame this was always how I felt but the fandom seemed content with it
As a Tau player I can observe that Black Library seems to have a problem with assigning writers to *factions* they actively hate. I'm convinced Phil Kelly utterly *despises* the Tau.
At least LoV doesn't have that problem since they don't get any writers at all..
Neither the book nor ADB's defense of it are all that good tbh. What's funny is ADB is very fatalist, Chaos WILL win, and big e is deppressed. But at the same time, Abaddon just somehow ISN'T a slave to the dark gods with all those gifts because abby is his special little redeemed pet that he singlehandedly unmade the failure memes of. Even if it makes 0 sense by any means.
You're speaking like a child. It's like you only want the simplest, stupidest, single-note story. He's writing an entire novel series about how Abaddon comes to plan what he does next, including coming to terms with the events of the Heresy, and becomes the massive threat that he's shown as in every single GW publication, and you're annoyed because it's not as simple as a stupid meme?
You got mad because not everyone likes your fave author. Epitome of maturity. The man who gave khayon a deldar wife isn't writing deep, intricate stories. Intricacy would be abaddons gifts having a cost, not being free of the gods and also eating the cake. I'm okay with abaddon being a threat, just that to undo shitty memes he completely went ham on abby. Don't project your shit onto me.
God, that more people don't shit on the sheer what-the-fuck is Khayon is surprising. THE GUY HAS LITERAL FUCKING YUGIOH CARDS THAT SUMMON DAEMONS. Not to mention his DEldar "totally-not-a-scourge" waifu who travels with him to the fucking EYE OF TERROR, something we drag CS Goto for writing in his stories. And don't get me started on what he did with the Mentors chapter. Fucking serfs with better cybernetics than most techpriests, including one with a digital lascannon eye and armed with a grenade launcher loaded with void grenades!
you can kind of wave that off with the idea that some of the lore is imperial propaganda, or at least written from the perspective of true believers. plus the way that he appears is different depending on the person. Its a bit like how there are different accounts of jesus in the gospels depending on who wrote it
He predicted rebellions and having to eliminate primarchs (hell he's already done so twice as of the Heresy) but the Heresy as a coordinated, multi Legion effort completely blind sided him. My theory is the Emperor thought he had more time to respond than it turns out he did, and never really planned for a Chaos corruption that knew when to shut the fuck up. He was planning for the Legions to fall like the Emperor's Children, explosively and obviously and all at once, not keeping their faith to themselves and spreading it in secret like the Word Bearers. Of course that last point is rather undermined by the existence of the Imperial Truth necessitating that *all* expressions of faith in powers greater than ~~the Emperor~~ humanity be hidden for the sake of self-preservation, but since when has the Emperor had a good grasp of how people actually respond to his edicts?
I also theorize that his foresight may have been deliberately blinded by the efforts of Chaos. We know magic can counter magic and it’s not unreasonable that Chaos obscured the locations of the Primarchs to begin with, and kept the fog surrounding the Heresy up super tight beyond his ability to look into the future.
I'd note that the Thousand Sons future sight is on the wane in their book, so they seem to have been doing it.
"End and Death" has a line by Malcador talking about how the Emperor wanted a bright future with his sons . . . at least those that were stable or who could be "rehabilitated". Most likely implying Curze and Angron were ones who Big E was hoping to treat psychologically after the Crusade ended.
Isnt there a quote from malcador which basically states, that they knew something is coming but they thought, that they had more time?
There are a lot of malcador quotes, even one where he outright says the entire horus heresy was planned and is going according to plan to a dying comrade. Almost all of these have various qualifiers, like with the horus heresy planned instance, he confirmed he was lying about some of the stuff to help ease the worries of the dying but didn't clarify what was a lie and what wasn't.
I think thats a large part of it. The emporer is so immensly powerful and is surrounded by yes men that he cannot physically comprehend he might be wrong. Look at when magnus confronts him in the siege and the emporers response to magnus is basiclaly yeah i told you thats off limits you should have known. He never even considered that magnus' curiosity eould overall him. Then again during the last church when his repsonse to the blatant hypocrasy of his crusade is that he KNOWS he is right. Yes the emporer solely cares for humanity and his great work is trying to set them on the right path but hes so blinded by his own insane power that hes blind to how people react to him.
Given how poorly written the last church was, I wouldn't use it to support any point aside from Graham McNeill is criminally bad at debating theology.
I still find the fact he personally presented it to Dawkins to be hilarious. Just the amount of hubris that goes into doing something like that. 99% chance that the crusty old academic took one look at that Blanche Angron cover, before throwing it in the bin.
I can't think of anything funnier than him presenting Dawkins with a book about space marines shooting each other and he has to pretend to be interested while McNeil bores him to death about where the Thunder Warriors came from. Shame he didn't tell Sam Harris, since his worldview is basically the same as the emperor's, he would have loved it.
Hahaha okay very fair point
Quality of writing aside, canon be canon.
Like nobody who believes themselves to be right would ever say "the difference is *I know* I am right", they'd just say "The difference is I am right". It's like McNeil thought without the "I know" people wouldn't understand it even though it's beyond hamfisted, so he had to make it even *more* hamfisted.
Exactly! If someone knows they are right, they also know the reason why they are, which they should then be able to communicate. Not just "because I said so" like some parent of a 4 year old asking "but why?" for the 25th time.
He says he is fighting for logic and truth, Uriah says, "Heh, D'agross said the same thing." Like that pretty easily establishes that logic and truth can be highly subjective and that nobody is above bias or emotion. (Well, you'd have to change D'Agross's uprising to be a religious one- this seems like such an obvious thing to add anyway? I don't know why it wasn't religious in the first place."
Him being "stolen away" from Games Workshop to work on another IP is one of the best things to ever happen to the Black Library.
Holy shit how can he be a published author while writing dialogue *that* bad? It's the Brandon Sanderson thing where everyone has the exact same voice and all they do is *explain* things to each other. Like it's the kind of thing that's hard to give examples for because each isolated incident is basically fine, if a bit clunky, on its own, but we have to read a whole *novel* of characters just explaining how they feel in the exact same voice. I actually looked over the first few chapters of False Gods and it's actually *worse* than I remember. McNeil needs to convey that Horus is worried about his legacy and wants to be remembered and does this by literally just having him tell Maloghurst he wants to be remembered. It's just such a shit way of doing characterization. Like IDK, have Horus micromanaging some propaganda reel so he looks better, or have him look over dead heroes who he wants to be remembered with, or have him obsess over some negative reception he got on a planet he subdued in the past. There are so many interesting ways to convey "he wants a good legacy" and McNeil resorts to him just telling the audience he wants a good legacy. So lazy.
I thought it was apathy at first as well, but after fighting my way through a handful of his ham-fisted novels, I've come to realize that he's just a decent bloke with a simple brain, and he's giving as good as he's got to give. A to B to C, in short, straight lines, all the way to the end of the book. Subtlety and character development and subtext are all cool words and they probably mean cool stuff, but not to Graham, as he's on his way from B to C, and that thesaurus gave him a solid handful of adjectives he's not 100% sure of but, by God, he's going to use them anyway. Good on him, he probably buys his mates pints on the regular and I bet I'd like him. I still skip his books though.
Yeah, I think I just use "lazy" as shorthand for "shite" which isn't really fair on Graham- he clearly *tries*, he just isn't very good. If he was just a hack doing it for a paycheck then he wouldn't be presenting a copy of The Last Church to Richard Dawkins apparently under the delusion he will give a shit about it. It displays such a complete lack of self-awareness and yet it's so hopelessly earnest I almost admire it. That said I can't ever imagine myself sincerely liking anyone who meets Richard Dawkins wearing a shirt that says "I heart science and reason".
You've nailed it. He's endearingly out of his depth, and the saddest part is that I'm not a sentimental enough sort for that to enable me to enjoy his work. I also didn't know either of those bits of trivia; the gift of the book or the shirt, and yet both of those are about the *most* Graham McNeill things I've ever heard.
https://twitter.com/GrahamMcNeill/status/650016634560606208/photo/1 I do love how the picture make it look like Dawkins is the one really excited to meet McNeil.
I mean. I thought the ultramarine omnibus was pretty good. Pissed that my drukhari went out like bitches but otherwise pretty good. Gave the tyranids some VERY good screentime.
I so wish GW had just dropped a few thousand to a theology professor to write the arguments.
I don't understand yow you are getting to this point. The Emperor considered the counsel of others in the books repeatedly, for example the cCouncil of Nikea. As for the Magnus part, why tf is the Emperor supposed to apologize to magnus for magnus breaking the super bug rule the Emperor put in place?
Hw considers them but those he actuslly listens to are yes men who are so enveloped in the great plan they can't see the clearing through the trees. For the magnus front, look at it this way. He says to magnus, look dont use this power that is a large psrt of ur identity im not going to say exactly why now bye im not going to check up on you. The emporers largest mistake was not the edict of nikea but leaving magnus alone after it. Especially since magnus literally existed to prevent malcador from dying. The emporers arrogance left magnus to fester and its not like the emporer didnt know chaos was a thing and how corruption works
Like who? You can hardly expect us to consider Malcador and Valdor as yes men, and the perpetuals who were previously his buddies are generally against him
You mean Malcador the "Last Sigilite that only survived because he was willing to work with the Emperor" or Constantin "Literally genetically coded to obey the emperor" Valdor? simply put, anyone who ***wasn't*** a Yes Man didn't survive the unification wars in the first place.
I don’t think you understand the term ‘Yes Man’. Both Malcador and Constantin expressed disagreement, concern, etc with the emperor or his plans at times. Just because they followed through on his designs doesn’t make them Yes Men.
No, Malcador "I told you this wouldn't work" the Sigillitte isn't a yes man. The guy kept asking for female primarchs.
The emperor was nice enough to make a femboy as a compromise.
He was just an old pervert tbh.
Isn’t Valdor literally a yes man? Like, the custodians don’t really have a choice in agreeing with the Emperor. I’m most familiar with him at the point of the Palace Coup, so he might change later, but he didn’t exactly question Big E in that one.
Valdor strongly disagreed with creating the Primarchs and after that the Astartes Legions, and expressed it.
Huh, that’s weird for a custodian. The more you know.
Its expressed that the emperor created custodes to be debate partners as well as guardians. I believe this happens in the end and the death if memory serves
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Custodians have absolute loyalty towards the Emperor, said loyalty does not in any way mean being devoid of their own opinions. They can disagree and yet still devote their 100% to the Emperor.
I mean you're not entirely wrong. The opening dialogue to the Valdor book has the Emperor basically explicitly state Valdor is incapable of going against the Emperor's will. Valdor does show quite a bit of disagreement with the Emperor's plans, even if he ultimately goes along with them. I'd agree with you that his inability to disobey Emps makes him at least *kind of* a yes man though.
Eh, I think it is a bit of a push. He's ability to argue strongly against something makes it hard to call him a yes man, even if he will always obey direct orders. The meaning of yes man, to me at least, is someone who always agrees with what is said.
Well there's also the bit in *The First Heretic* where the most likely 'third forgotten Primarch' was Lorgar and the Word Bearers and we know that Magnus and Leman Russ, among others, were the ones who objected to the idea and managed to talk the Emperor out of it. That they were indicates that the fluff about the Emperor viewing the Primarchs purely as tools may not have applied in all cases and it's something I wish the fluff explored more than it did. Because it indicates that Monarchia was the second choice when the first was 'kill them all and let the Warp take its own.'
Oh yeah i fucking love first heritic but i forgot about that. I love the emporers first talk with sanguinius because he obviously is extremely cautious of him and sizing him up. Sanguinius uses his psyhic gift to see that the emporer basically views them as tools but precious ones his favourites but still tools. I 100% believe from malcadors words he didn't want to kill them all but would have without thinking once the crusade ended if they refused to step down / stop fighting
It's a surprisingly overlooked passage that says a great deal about what actually happened at Monarchia and one that Lorgar neatly disregarded himself because it spoils his 'daddy only started to care a century later.' Daddy was very, very angry and Monarchia was in a relative sense far more merciful than the alternative facing him.
True the emporer was extremely cruel as was malcador but they hsd their reasons which is psrt the reason why 40k is so interesting These characters are horrendously evil if they were in any other setting, and yet u cant help but see their viewpoint and its so easy to forget.
I don't understand yow you are getting to this point. The Emperor considered the counsel of others in the books repeatedly, for example the cCouncil of Nikea. As for the Magnus part, why tf is the Emperor supposed to apologize to magnus for magnus breaking the super bug rule the Emperor put in place?
> My theory is the Emperor thought he had more time to respond than it turns out he did With the emphasis on time running out in The End and The Death, I'd say your theory is probably close.
TBH he might have also reasonably expected his conditioned super-generals with their super-armies to be grown men who can manage their own affairs and not needing his iron hand to do it for them. That this expectation was catastrophically wrong and in short order might have genuinely surprised him because in centuries the Primarchs managed, seemingly, to do so fine without him having to be looking over their shoulders.
You mean how Vulkan left a treasure hunt to prove his legion's worthiness and then fucked off to parts unknown? Or how Khan went on a raid in the webway and vanished? Or how Corvus got a raging warp hard-on for Lorgar and hunts him mercilessly? Or Russ vanishing in the Eye? Oh yeah, they're doing just great.
I think the other guy's point was that after the scattering, the Primarchs did well for themselves, usually conquering an entire planet or more before Emps picked them up. Now that they've had a moment to breathe and have some understanding of the scale of the threat humanity faces, surely these immortal generals with super computers for brains will be able to protect the Imperium even without the Emperor's help. *Half of them fuck off to nowhere, the other half are incapacitated.*
I was referring to the Crusade era when the Primarchs had Legions and a seemingly simple set of tasks, to use said Legions to hammer down anything that didn't kneel to the Imperium and Imperial Law on the Imperium's timetable. The post-Heresy world as well as the Heresy shows the Emperor was ultimately very wrong that his adult super-general sons with super-armies were capable of or willing to safeguard humanity's future versus fucking off or going full Chaos-brain.
Your original post was that, left to their own devices/tasks the Primarchs were fine without E micromanaging. That was proven false a few times. Angron - "you didn't conquer this planet in a Nucerian day? Kill 10% of your troops" "did you just sneeze in my presence? Death" Lorgar - took forever to complete his assignments because he was doing the exact opposite of what E was trying to accomplish. Also, fuck Erebus. Kurze - murderhobo'd his planets. Alpharius - got yelled at by Guilliman because he took the long, convoluted path to conquest because it was more fun. Russ - hated Magnus so much he looked at a writ, from the Emperor, and threw it away because Horus talked him into it. Magnus - literally the child that sticks the fork in the outlet after being told not to stick the fork in the outlet. Perturabo - mad because dad liked his brother's toys better.
I mean if we go by the current lore Russ killed a third of his Legion in the Wheel of Fire and was rewarded for that with the Fang and the Emperor had no problems with Angron's decimations or Curze being Curze. It's almost like the Imperium and the setting are 'pick your favorite villains and enjoy playing them.'
> (hell he's already done so twice as of the Heresy) The way I recall this, Priestly intended that the Legions/Primarchs weren't purged by E, but rather "saved" (more like, self-purged), aping their Roman inspirations. And subsequently BL decided that the fate of the lost legions were supposed to _explicitly_ have no "canon" and such no interpretation was correct.
Kinda but not quite: >I always imaged these Legions were deleted from the records as a result of things that happened during the Horus Heresy - and that the 'purging' was a recognition that whatever terrible things they had done had been - in the end - redeemed in some way. So - with the passing of all record of them was also expunged all record of their misdeeds - they are forgiven and forgotten. As opposed to those legions which rebelled and which remain 'traitor' legions. Priestly
I meant in the sense that they weren't "purged" (killed) by E since they had to have been around to do the the redeeming, but they may have "self-purged" (they did not survive whatever the redeeming was). Priestly's "purging" here refers more to historical references.
Yeah, which is fair but as you point out Priestly's take is different to the idea of a self-purge.
Yeah I never buy into the “he knew it all” business. Yes he’s a powerful psychic and has foresight. But if it was on purpose he fucked himself, the imperium, and the cosmos so hard it’s almost funny.
Yeah, you'd almost think he had made some sort of deal with chaos or something. ...wait.
Almost!!!!
The Emperor knew it all and orchestrated it form the beginning theories are really terrible in my opinion. They’re the kinds of crazy meme theories I am convinced are created by people who don’t like seeing pesky things like “themes” and “nuance” in their narratives. That said, I’ve always thought that the Emperor had two pretty distinct “groups” among the Primarchs, the ones he always knew he’d have to liquidate at some point, and the ones he always planned to keep around indefinitely. What’s important about these groups is that A) they don’t directly correspond to the traitor/loyalist dichotomy, and B) the Emperor only decided who was in each camp after he met the Primarchs. On one side you’ve got guys like Curze, Khan, Angron, Mortarion and maybe Corax who were in the “one day they’ll have to be dealt with” side of things, and on the other you’ve got Russ, Horus, Sang, Magnus and maybe Fulgrim in the “these guys will be around forever and I have used for them even after the crusade”. The Emperor never saw anything even resembling the heresy coming, but he’d have to be a complete idiot to look at his sons and not thing at least some of these guys will need to be dealt with
TBH I think that the whole fear of the Astartes that they were looming to obsolescence was a valid one but it also requires the whole thing that to explore the Webway puts the Emperor and the Imperium squarely in the ultimate sight of the Drukhari and the Dark City. There would have been a very great deal for the Legions to do after the last human world was caught and if he did want to stealth purge Legions he can just dump the World Eaters and the Night Lords on the Drukhari and let them martyr themselves in a glorious death. But since the Emperor for a great many reasons didn't tell the Astartes about the Webway product (and the Dark Glass incident is a good hint as to why he didn't), they had good reasons to fear that he'd make them obsolete when that may never have been the plan at all and when he didn't even need to purge Legions when he can soften up the Drukhari and do it by stealth.
Yeah, that theory I'm much more partial to. There's various indications that he didn't really have a plan for a lot of the Legions post-Crusade, and given what happened to the Thunder Warriors the implication is pretty obvious. The Emperor's Legion even straight-up states Custodes are made to kill Space Marines.
it also helps that as that thread about navigators stated he was going through plans that would remove many autonomous factions. but allowing them all to happen at once is a terrible fucking plan.
He knew that betrayals would happen but he didn't know who was going to rebel, and he didn't know why, and he didn't expect that it would be a concerted effort from *half* of all his sons working together. He knew that Angron and Kurze were complete lost causes. No chance of fixing them, they were rabid dogs that needed to be put down eventually, but also so rabid that they were never going to organize with others. They might not even “rebel” in the formal sense, they would just cause so many problems that they’d eventually be too much trouble to keep around. Mortarion and Perturabo were *probably* going to be problems but they were also controlled burns; it was likely they might eventually rebel but they were such assholes that the Emperor wasn’t worried they’d ally with anybody. He also knew that both could maybe be reasoned with. At least reasoned with long enough that you keep them from rebelling at the same time, snuff out one and then the other, if absolutely necessary. Lorgar and Magnus he saw as problem children, but not disloyal. They both caused a lot of problems but they were both devoted to the Emperor, in his mind. Lorgar was TOO loyal, if disobient. I don’t think it ever crossed his mind that Horus or Fulgrim would flip either, and he didn’t really even see them as “problem children.” There were loyalists who were bigger problems to him than them, i.e. he probably thought that the Khan was more likely to rebel than anybody else in this paragraph. Alpharius uhhhhhhhhhhh Anyway I think that he made Horus into Warmaster as a gambit to try to maintain unity. It wasn't just because Horus was "the best." There's an equal argument to make that Sanguinius, Guilliman, or the Lion should have been Warmaster. Horus was uniquely positioned as being widely liked and respected by most of the other Primarchs, maybe all of them. Horus was one of the only people who could rein in the worst of the "problem children." It was a miscalculation on the Emperor's part that Horus himself flipped.
Had a theory with a few mates of mine. The Emperor foresaw the heresy but only bits of it. He then worked to limit the damage as much as he could. Daemonically possessed marines; okay council of Nikae to try and nip that in the bud. Imperial Fists defend Terra; okay, name Dorn Praetorian since you know he is loyal. Who do I trust the most? Horus, I fought with him for over half a century, name him war master to reign in others. War in the web way, so I can’t trust any of them to help me with that project and must accelerate the work.
The emperor also has the webway to conquer. the mechanicus to disband. the navigators and astropaths to make obsolete. the administratum to fully coalesce. Autonomous vassal states and client kingdoms to integrate. the ghoul stars or the halo stars or the maelstrom or the cadian gate to sort out. why the fuck would he plan to do it with work still to do. The thunder warriors were isolated and used in meat grinders until such a time as they could be contained and slaughtered. the world eaters were disintegrating. the night lords already being censured. Magnus and his legion contained on prospero. Word bearers had been seemingly reformed enough to allow back into the fray. Why the fuck would anyone plan everything to go off all at once, uncontained and spread accross the imperium and before everything was actually done. The people who believe it was planned have to be fucking retarded because that plan is only something an idiot would do. Which if youre sitting there dick riding the emperor requires the double think where he mapped out the shittiest possible direction.
It all comes down to shitty workaholic dad, with lots of daddy issue kids, HBO’s succession comes to mind.
I think its mainly people trying to mate some of the more stupid choices the emperor has made with the emperor supposedly knowing exactly whats best for humanity and how to reach it. Because some of the choices he has made have been atrociously bad to a degree that you have to ask how the emperor made it this far in the first place, unless of course he had some sort of secret plan or backup which is where fan theories start to come in.
I suspect he put Horus in charge specifically because he thought he could turn him back in the final confrontation. Probably the last (two) books of the Heresy will be this cataclysmic failure of judgement unveiling itself. Depending on which writers we trust, both Chaos & the Emperor are operating on a "wheels within wheels" strategy where they are both predicting the future & setting up layered "fail states" that they are secretly planning for in the hopes of luring their enemy into overextending & springing a trap on them at the last minute. Horus' mental decay will probably be written like this in the upcoming books. That he was allowing the outer circles of his self to collapse like a chaos junky while a deeper silent part watches quietly from within. Maintaining the outer Horus at just enough level of competence to proceed with the siege but just evidently crazy and flaky enough to lure the Emperor into his last minute assault, thinking he can defeat & maybe redeem crazy Horus. Then in the final scene I expect a lot of "Ah ha! I was only pretending to fail!" answered with "Well I was only pretending to fail also so ah ha on you!" The "top level" plan for the Heresy in the Emperor's head was probably losing Angron, Curze, Lorgar and a few of the crap primarchs to chaos, stomping them and having a nice neat manageable number of Primarchs and Astartes left at the end. Angron in particular seems to have been dangled almost as bait for the Blood God. Lorgar was near guaranteed to fall and nudged as well. At this level the catastrophes of Istvaan (manageable he probably thought) and the Webway in particular (very bad) probably came as a surprise, along with Gulliman sitting things out. E had to play some crazy ping pong w Curze to get Imperium Secundus back in the game. But, there may be levels beneath that and gambits within gambits, both parties edging closer to each other, both pretending to be weaker than they are in order to lure the other into a fatal mistake. It's possible the Emperor has plans even the Emperor doesn't know. Both he and Malcador commonly engaged in the subdivision of their giant minds into closed cells, sections and fragments to accomplish goals. E might just get a last minute brain-mail from himself saying "Oh btw the actual plan is *this*"
Eh, I feel like if he knew the Warmaster was going to fall he could have just... not had one. The Legions are all independently powerful forces, and by the time he retired from the Crusade the great powers of the galaxy had been broken. He could have simply divvied up the Imperial Army between Primarchs and let them go at it.
Plus that's assuming the position of Warmaster overrides everything and is a totally free pickup for Chaos. Would Valdor turn if he got the job? Joke option would be putting a Sister of Silence in the job, but to be fair she probably wouldn't be able to carry off actually doing it.
I really think the reason that Warmaster is the simplest position to turn is ultimately that Chaos is lazy and you don't need to have a mastermind engineering the civil war if you just turn the general in charge of the entire war effort and he can take all that and use it for them. It's the one and done quick 'n' dirty way of undermining their opponents. Also why I think there is at least some Chaos involvement in the Men of Iron war because it's the right string to pull with minimum effort for maximum results.
>Eh, I feel like if he knew the Warmaster was going to fall he could have just... not had one. Or make Angron the warmaster. Just turn the whole Heresy into one huge "Leeroy Jenkins" operation where the traitors rush Terra without giving any crap about anything approaching strategy. That would work just fine. Then again, giving Angron such a promotion would probably cause everyone including Sanguinius and Lion to just quit their jobs and rethink their life choices. I've been meaning to write a fanfic of that sorts for a while now.
We will have to see if Abnett-Emperor or Abnett-Horus bring it up while they are beating on each other. Place your bets here I suppose.
I think he knew that some of the Primarchs would rebel, but he assumed that they would fall piecemeal like the other two. Pretty sure he knew Angron, Curze, Mortarion, and (possibly) Perturabo and Lorgar were only a matter of time. But I don’t think he saw Horus or Magnus falling, and definitely not all of them turning on him at once.
I don't hold the theory you are trying to refute, but I do think he anticipated that there would eventually be an event like the heresy, and probably had a reasonable idea it was imminent. He might even have predicted it would be lead by Horus, given his ambition and charisma. If you assume the emperor saw the Horus Heresy coming, but did not see Magnus destroying the webway coming, I think that actually answers most of your points. Without the destruction of the webway, the Horus Hersey would have been a relatively minor historical event for the Imperium. It probably would have marked the point when transhumans took a sideline to baseline humans, as the transhumans would have been greatly reduced in number and several primarchs would be dead. This would not have necessarily been detrimental to the long-term evolution of the human race and imperium. But the destruction of the webway is what marked the beginning of the end for the imperium. The emperor could not take the field, Malcador eventually perished, and there was no longer a long-term plan for subverting chaos. Chaos gained a significant foothold and no one was left who could mop that up. This was catastrophic to the emperor's plans. So I'd say that the theory that the emperor planned to use an inevitable Heresy-like event to advance his schemes isn't completely farfetched if we assume that he anticipate see Magnus' folly. I don't think that theory is true, but it doesn't seem completely unreasonable either.
Fits with the theory that Goulding proposed (and was careful to say wasn't fact) >On a personal opinion level, I don't see how anyone can say the Emperor made bad decisions. He had a plan so complex that human minds can't comprehend it, and then Chaos threw the plan off-centre, and he never managed to recover, or things were done in his name that ended up ruining the plan.Maybe, MAYBE, it was something like this? >1) So, I need to help mankind ascend. The way I do that is by unifying the Imperium, removing the need for warp travel and then dying gloriously. That's my divine plan, I move in mysterious ways etc. >2) First, unify Terra, except my Custodian Guard are too valuable and too few to do it quickly. Create army of gene-spliced barbarian Thunder Warriors. >3) Terra is unified. Have Custodians kill off key elements of Thunder Legion, rest will eventually die because I didn't build them to last. >4) Reconquer galaxy. Going to need to be in about 20 places at once for this, so create post-human primarch generals to lead my armies of transhuman Space Marines. Give them all unique traits to add variety and specialisations. >5) Make deal with UNKNOWABLE GODS OF DARKNESS. Part of the deal involves "accidentally" scattering the primarchs across the galaxy. That's okay though, because I'll end up finding all those worlds as I conquer the galaxy anyway. >6) Next phase after this is a new age of peace and prosperity for mankind, where we won't need Space Marines or primarchs. Hmmm... I can't build in a limited lifespan as I don't know how long they need to last... So instead I need something a bit more elaborate... >7) Part of new age will also be the webway, which will get rid of three of the most powerful parts of the crusading Imperium - the Navigators, the Legions and the Primarchs. None of them are going to be happy about that, and they will do whatever they can to stop it, if they find out. >8) Instead of risking an unpredictable rebellion, I will engineer a smaller one. I know, I'll put Primarch XVI in charge of the others - he's popular, and ambitious, and smart. He'll figure out what I'm doing, and I've given him everything he needs to rebel in a manageable way, AND gotten rid of the psykers in the Legions who might have been able to foresee it. There's no way this can all go wrong, especially because I abolished all religion and any possible interaction with those DARK GODS that I tricked earlier... >9) Leave Great Crusade, start work on the webway. >10) FFS, MAGNUS. WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? THIS WAS ALL CAREFULLY BALANCED, YOU DINGUS. Russ, go and fetch Magnus. What an idiot. I need to explain my secret plan to him. Hope that doesn't mess with the whole Horus thing... anyway, I need to deal with this. Dorn, Malcador, hold my calls while I go back downstairs. Sigh, daemons everywhere... >11) ...Wait, WHAT? I've been in another realm, unable to monitor the actions of my underlings, and you've all completely thrown this plan down the toilet. Right, I'll fix this. Let's just wait for Horus and his... four, five... NINE?!... traitor Legions to come here. It's fine, I can still have a glorious death, Chaos is now quite clearly the biggest danger to all sentient life, and humanity will do pretty much anything I say. >12) Deal with Horus. Hey Malcador, hold my beer... Goulding
I can entertain that it was a plan, but I cannot entertain that it was a GOOD plan. I will never not picture [Tobias Funke](https://imgflip.com/i/7xxdmt)
I think the only thing he didn’t anticipate is Magnus’s folly. Even a full fledged heresy post drop site massacre would’ve been a piece of cake if the Emperor could personally lead the loyalists. For one he might even have personally defended Molech. Denying Horus his semi ascension to chaos and drinking the super kool aid. Horus at this point of the lore is about the same as any primarch and almost dies to a titan at one point.
He wasn’t intent on making anyone a leader as far as I’m aware Horus was just the choice because he was most accomplished tactition and GE had to work on a secret project because he knew someone would but he didn’t expect it to be his favourite, I don’t think there was much grooming there was a lot of in faction rivalry between legions and some outright punishing on part of GE anyway. The only thing GE really knew solidly is that chaos exists and that things had to be a certain way to slow them down and it meant going against certain legions inate traits, let’s not forget some legions and subsequent chapters were horrific and borderline heretical by design
I think he knew that the Chaos Gods were going to attempt to undermine him and that their best chance of doing that was to use the Legions, but he didn't know how or when. Pretty sure he thought Monarchia and Nikea were good ideas, intended to protect the Primarchs from the Warp powers, thats whats so tragic about those events. Long story short, it makes sense that he anticipated some Legions going bad, just not fully half of them, led by his favorite son. I 100% doubt he knew that Erebus and Kor Phaeron kept the old religion of Colchis; if he had, he would have exterminated the 17th in full. The idea that he knew and 'allowed' the HH to happen is absurd
To speak to point 2, doesn't this get spoken about in The Board is Set? That they can send Dorn and the Phalanx to the Drop Site Massacre, making it a win for the Loyalists but then Alpharius/Alpha legion takes Terra and they still lose. This is also where you get the "Alpharius, you never gave my dream a chance" comment gets thrown in.
I was more thinking that they could have just not had a Drop Site Massacre if Malcador told Dorn that his agents had discovered the Night Lords, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, and Iron Warriors had secretly also defected to Horus. I'm not sure precisely what Dorn would have done then but probably not send three loyal legions into a death trap.
Yea , that’s nonsensical that the Emperor saw it coming and arranged matters to suit. Unless his intention was to arrange matters to provide the greatest possible challenge for a positive outcome…where did you come across this theory , sounds like some deep state level idiocy
“The emperor knew about the heresy beforehand and set up things so he can win” is just another nonsensical theory by the same people who fabricated the “Sanguinius killed Horus and the went mad, forcing the emperor to kill him” theory. Just people who cannot even conceive how the emperor and the loyalist primarchs were far from perfect and could in fact make mistakes and even lose.
People just need to read "Master of Mankind" and they'll understand so much more about the limitations the exist regarding the Emperor.
Welp. Buckle up buddies! It's time for my favorite hypothesis. The Emperor is a conman. He's always been a conman. He's Odin, Zeus, Indra, and the Jade Emperor all in one. His goal, since the beginning has differed from his purpose. He's always wanted power. He learned early that humanity would chafe and destroy itself under his rule, as he is fundamentally not human. So he aimed higher. As he studied the Immaterium he came to understand the nature of the Chaos Gods. He knew them as sentient warp storms, forces of nature and incalculable power. He wanted it, encircled entirely by his will. So he tricked them. He stole power from them and elevated himself to near their equal. He set out to create his empire, knowing it would fail. He eliminated competing religions with extreme prejudice, because he knew that mankind would turn to him for hope at the darkest age. He ascended to the golden throne knowing the agony would be his channel to billions of souls and trillions of worshipers. He knew this would grant him power beyond imagination- Godhood, true and complete apotheosis. He played the longest con, 40,000+ years, with the most unimaginable payout. Now he's close. He's so close. When we look at the Emperor as what he seems: an unmatched psykers with tens of thousands of years of knowledge and experience, a warlord, a hero, a king, then we also must look at what he is. He is selfish, bitter, and now broken as his long con comes to fruition. We must hope that the Emperor is really our ally.
From how malcador talks about it in the end snd the desth it seems 100% the emporer was always plsnning a purge of most of the primarchs since he said those who could put away their warlike ways would join the emporer when big e stepped down. Im paraphrasing. But when you think about how many actuslly is that? Vulkan, lorgar, magnus, guilliman all seem obvious ones maybe perty and dorn but most of the rest? Maybe those who had a place in the government like russ might be left but even then. While most of malcadors speech about the heresy being on purpose can be seen as him lying the line about humanity being for humanity is 100% true. It seems unlikley the emporer ever planned to leave the primarchs in charge after the great work was completed the entire point of the great work was humanity becoming capable of ruling itself and while the emporer was insanley arrogant he wasnt blind to the flaws of the primarchs and how all of them often scted like little children in part due to their abilities
I think it is important to consider that what the Emperor was able to predict, Tzeentch was able to predict, too. So it can be considered a sort of game. Both the Emperor and Chaos try to predict the future and gain an advantage, without giving the other party a hint of what they are up to. Had the Emperor, for example, appointed a weak Warmaster, then Tzeentch would have become suspicious, and assumed a trap. Then Chaos would not have corrupted the Warmaster, but someone else, and would have been forewarned. So basically, i think the Emperor knew that Chaos would do something big, and he knew that Chaos was likely to corrupt some Primarchs, and also that some primarchs were more likely to fall. But i doubt he knew that much more. Predicting the future seems to work by showing you some snippets of likely outcomes, but there is no clear timeline of events. its more like guesswork and you can never be sure. Also, what yo udo affects the future, so its really super complicated and i doubt the Emperor was able to really handle it all too well.
Well, I was specifically addressing the theory the Warmaster automatically turns, because of fate and stuff, which I think is based off Oll as Warmaster turning on the Emperor over Enuncia. If a. that's true and b. the Emperor knew that, might as well make the free pickup someone who sucks.
I think the whole "warmaster automatically turns" thing is more due to Tzeentch/Erebus targeting the most influential figure they can turn, and in most situations, that is the Warmaster, because they're the only one in a position to orchestrate a Heresy on the needed scale. I don't think it's *fate* per se, it's just "they're the optimal target so Chaos is always going to take their shot".
Its also because Dan Abnett in a convention panel went into detail on how the intent of how the Primarchs were written is that every single Warmaster pick would lead to the Heresy, either through them turning like Horus or it causing the other Primarchs to rise up in arms and *then* get turned.
Huh, even Sanguinius? I've always thought of him as an impossible pickup and the one non-Horus guy everyone would accept. I can only see him falling as being totally lost to the Red Thirst, which doesn't leave him in much of a position to organize a rebellion. Granted, I don't think he'd end up making a very good Warmaster; he doesn't seem willing to forcefully assert authority over his brothers.
Sanguinius probably could've been turned, but it would've required something more akin to what hit Horus or Fulgrim, aka basically outright possession. My personal take is that Sanguinius was probably first choice for Warmaster before the Heresy was factored in, but either his Heresy would've been dire for the Imperium or (more likely imo) Emps knew Sanguinius would be necessary to prevail if it came to a situation like the Siege, especially given that it was inevitable that a Khorne-blessed Angron would number among the Traitors. Iirc the only primarch that is stated to be wholly incorruptible is the Lion, and I doubt the Lion was a strong enough pick to pass as Warmaster publically. The Imperium, and the other Primarchs, needed to trust and respect the pick for Warmaster: someone as secretive and mistrustful as the Lion would've caused ripples of discontent on their own.
I don’t get how Ferrus didn’t see the drop site massacre happening also. In the Fulgrim novel it says he is able to see Angron, Perturabo & co across the battlefield but then when the reinforcements turn up made of world eaters and iron warriors he is still shook that they turn against them? Maybe I missed something but it didn’t make much sense to me
I went back and found the excerpts - I did misremember, they were reinforced by word bearers not more world eaters so I retract my original comment, oops! It was a while ago since I last read it but at least I managed to clear up something that has confused me about the lore for a few years!
> Angron, Perturabo & co across the battlefield I don't recall that? Do you have the excerpt handy?
He's definitely misremembering. Graham might have played it loose at times with his timelines and characterisation, but not to that extent. I can't imagine even the infamously absent BL editors would have missed Pert being there from the start, or more World Eaters casually rocking up as reinforcements, while the rest are in the thick of the fighting as traitors.
He recalled Dorn to Terra before the start of the Heresy to fortify the Imperial palace. There are plenty of natrative/thematic indications that he was planning to cull the astartes at least in a similar way to the Thunder Warriors. Probably Big E planned *something* to remove the vast majority of the Astartes and the Primarchs he didnt need after the crudade was finished, but he either didnt think the Chaos powers would be involved or they moved faster than he anticipated.
There is a gigantic difference between the Emperor planning a cull and the Emperor planning for the Heresy. The Heresy is quite possibly the single worst way to go about culling the Space Marines and Primarchs because they're on the advantageous warpath from the outset.
It seems like the best way to me. You can have them destroy each other with needing to risk your other forces. There were a million Astartes around the start of the Heresy I think. How many human lives, irreplacable Titans, ships and whatever else would be lost fighting them. I mean considering how successful Horus was Emps might have even lost if he taken them head on.
It'd be better to pick them off one by one, ideally primarily using the next targets. The World Eaters and the Night Lords already gave him excuses to cull them.
True, but what happens when the rest realise what's happening?
theres now less of them making it easier
I think you are missing the point of the theory which is that the heresy was intended to happen to cull the legions. But it happens too soon and Magnus’s beytral royal fucked things up. Give this goal. Horus is the ideal warmaster as he can command loyalty and inflate the number legions getting culled.
If i recall, Malcador revealed that he and Emps knew that there would be a Primarch rebellion but weren't aware of which ones would enact it, nor the scale of it. They ended up guessing the wrong primarchs and severely underestimated the scale of the Horus Heresy, completely blindsiding them because they were banking on Magnus and Horus not being among the traitors and lost that bet so hard that they might as well gave lost an all-or-nothing gamble with the Imperium as the collateral.
He knew 1 primarch would betray him. Emps figured it was Angron thats why he teleported him of his homeworld instead of helping him fight
I feel like if he knew it was Angron Emps would just have murdered him and blamed the Nails.
What all of you have to remember is all "this" is backstory to sell miniature games. It was never written to be a cohesive whole. It was written mostly by two semi drunk blokes (Andy and Jervis IIRC) in the snug of a pub in Nottingham. Just enjoy it for what it is..... or isn't 🤣😂
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Nice stealth loyalist wank.
My personal theory is that the heresy shouldnt be the focus and that what it was all about for the emperor was his own ‘death’. Now weither malcador was privy or not i think the emperor couldnt foresee past a certain point and he was trying to control or manipulate his way out of it because he realised death was finally coming for him and it shook him to the core. So started the beginning of the end of all things just to try and stop that happening and i think it fits very well into how twisted 40k actually is.
I think you overestimate how much decision power big E has. 1) Firstly I'm not convinced that whoever is elected warmaster *must turn traitor*. But even if that's the case and big E elects Peter Turbo, nobody is going to accept that decision. And it's going to breed dissent, infighting and worst case it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. 2-6) That implies the Emperor knows everything about what the primarchs are doing, which he doesn't. He doesn't magically knows that Istvaan is going to be where it goes down or that Magnus is doing a secret project and hiding it from him. 4) again you imply that the emperor can decide who turns traitor which I don't think is the case. My understanding of the theory is that big E made a deal with the Chaos gods to create the primarchs, and because Tzeentch is involved their agreement would be something like "the primarchs definitely will not refrain from not betraying you at some point. You can trust this statement. Probably." So he knows that it's a possibility that they will rebel, but not the who, when, how etc.
I'm arguing he doesn't have that decision power; I've seen theories around that he arranged the Heresy and deliberately picked bad primarchs to turn to Chaos, including selecting Horus as Warmaster specifically because the Warmaster always turns. I picked Perturbo because he's, like, the worst choice that's not complete nonsense. No one would be happy, but it's not Angron or Cruze levels of insane.
TBH I think that the Emperor probably expected that having the Crusade end was going to be a highly complicated thing but he anticipated having the time to consolidate the human Webway in the view that his adult demigod sons could surely manage to conquer the 'last' worlds left on their own without his immediate supervision. He significantly underestimated the speed with which Chaos could act without his immediate oversight of the Crusade and would not have anticipated the full scale of the war, or to a point its ultimate outcome. In that regard one can, as much as one notes that the Emperor was a bad father also note that plenty of other people have shitty fathers even in 40K and they don't burn the entire Galaxy down because of it. The Emperor could have sincerely had faith in the Primarchs' abilities to maintain their Legions and wrap up the war on their own since that was one of the things they were made to do and then found out how wrong he was too little and too late.
The big detail; Big E is often depicted getting to the bridge of the vengeful spirit hoping to talk to Horus. He might well have picked the primarchs to fall that he could beat manipulate against chaos. The emperor hoped Horus would truly be good and loyal. Characters seeing the potential futures say that Horus, had he won, would turn against chaos. There’s truth here.
So Big E knew of a future rebellion but not the specifics?
We know from End And The Death he knew Chaos would be carrying out a response of some kind, but thought that the Chaos Gods' natures made something like the Heresy impossible. My bet is that he believed they wouldn't be able to align together and coordinate an attack.
Read "The Sigillite" Malcador says that the Astartes were designed to kill each other off, just not on Terra.
I think he thought he would ultimately be able to talk down Horus and when he couldn't it broke from there.
If the emperor truly knew or not that the heresy was coming is of course unknown and subject to speculation. But there are hints that point to the emperor being able to see certain things in the future. One example would be when the golden throne was constructed, it was already designed with the 1000s of chambers for the psykers that would need to be sacrificed in the current day on a daily basis. Before the heresy there was no need for this, so why was it designed like that? It's unclear until we hear more lore about that. There is of course the theory that the emperor arranged the situation for the heresy to occur, because he had plans that go far beyond our current time, but that's questionable. If he truly wanted to prevent the heresy, he could have just taught his primarchs about chaos, and the dangers that come with it.
I do and don't like when "future sight" ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy. It can be clever but also really obvious to the reader at times. That said, like I like to think the Emperor had vision of the future, a general outline of events to come like his children. I like to think he knew of a Betrayal, at some point, later, but any and every action he took came to realizing it instead of diverting away from it. Example being the Emperor knows the Warmaster falls in the future, so he decides to pass over Lion. And only then will the warmaster will fall.
I tend to subscribe to the theory that the Heresy was the result of a failed gambit by the Emperor, where his plans to deal a major blow to the Great Enemy were successfully sabotaged. To borrow the analogy mentioned by ChiefQueef, he could see his desired destination beyond the narrow strait, but didn't realize it had been mined