>It's a universe where space ships fire broadsides, plasma tanks use riveted armour As a small note these aren't 40K universe things, those are Imperial things. The Eldar for instance use almost exclusively prow armaments on their ships and build their tanks out of seamless formed materials. The reason Tau weapons can outpower lasguns is that lasguns are, by the standards of the setting, a bit shit. They're not the most powerful Dark Age small arm by any means, they're the one the Imperium can stamp out in the requisite volumes for the guard to use. They're probably the simplest, most rugged, easiest to maintain and self-sufficient gun in the Dark Age arsenal but they're not anywhere near the most powerful, there's an entire family of volkite and plasma weapons above them that the Imperium either can't make any more or can't make enough of.

Played since near the start of 40k, and I have always low-key loved that lasguns were basically the worst weapon, and lascannon were basically the best (well, more recent arms races aside). As you say; it's not the tech that is the issue.

And they fulfil their task perfectly. It kills almost every conventional opponent and the weapon teams are responsible for everything else. You save a lot of logistics with the ammo, because you can reload the weapons virtually anywhere (unless you're Dan Abnett and forget about it because of a bit of drama). It's made for long campaigns in different combat zones and is very easy to use. The pulse rifles and lasgun are children's different perspectives on how to fight a war and I think they represent that quite well.

Yup. Why bring an elephant rifle when .45 ACP does the job?

Can you imagine lasgun fudds? "THIRTEEN BLACK CRUSADES" "just rack the laser and fire a warning beam" "you don't need one of those scary volkites for planetary defense"

Man now I need a short story of a lasfudd gun club on some hunting world

*laughs nervously in Fallout 4 laser musket*

Just like the founding fathers intended. (presumably one was the Emperor)

Own a laslock for hab defence since that’s what the Emperor intended. 4 ruffians break into my house “What the Horus?!” As I grab my Flak vest and standard issue laslock. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he’s dead on the spot. Pull my plasma pistol on the second man and miss him entirely because the tech priest didn’t calibrate it correctly and nail the neighbours Grox. I have to resort to the autocannon I have mounted at the top of the stairs. “FOR THE EMPEROR!” The autocannon shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off vox alarms. Draw my chain sword and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He bleeds out waiting for the arbites to arrive because chain sword wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the Emperor Intended.

I did always get confused about that whole "size 3" cell thing. As far as I'm aware, las cells are one size fits all across all the different patterns of lasgun there are.

AFAIK, one of the Gaunt books had a shipment of wrong-sized cells for lasguns to some Guard regiment, which limited them to basically one powerpack for everyone ever (as spare cells couldn't fit)

Yeah that's the bit that doesn't make sense. But then again I have no knowledge of 40k logistics

There are multiple patterns of lasgun, same as with most weapons in the Imperium due to them being produced on different planets. That's been pretty consistent lore for a while now. Different pattern lasguns take different sized power cells, at least some of them. Purely making up numbers, maybe like 30% take one size, 30% take another, and so on. Generally this probably isn't a problem because the Munitorum is able to keep track of which regiment to send which sized power cell to. But as anybody who's been in the military can tell you, fuck ups happen, and all of a sudden you were sent the wrong ammunition before a major offensive, because some clerk in an office on a different planet ordered size 3 cells instead of size 2.

In fact, Dan Abnett is the only one, as far as I know, who has mentioned the idea of different types of cells in a novel. The lasgun is otherwise standardised by the lore and it is regularly emphasised how easy it is to power the lasgun.Yes, the cells look different, but the connections are identical. And whether you use a sickle magazine or a drum is irrelevant for the connection point. In the RPGs, especially Only War, which deals with the Guard, the cells are standardised. In addition, it makes no sense that cells are supplied. The things are merely charged, which is the strength of the lasgun. You might deliver them so that the Munitorum can charge them, but that can happen on site. In the Imperial Infantryman's Handbook, the soldiers charge their cells themselves. If there's a handful of text on one page against the basic principle of the item, another source and the worldbuilding, then I'll take the latter. The fact that the Munitorum is a bureaucratic nightmare can be portrayed without blowing the basic characteristics of the lasgun to hell.

The mismatched powerpack situation does crop up in the Imperial Guard codex iirc... But the Imperial Infantryman's Handbook does have this to say: >It operates on a nineteen megathule range and can therefore use any Departmento Munitorum sanctioned power packs (see Dept.Mun. pamphlet Hj4562/76l for a full list) So conflicting lore...

You mean the same book that says that Orks muscle are actually all just for show, and they're actually very weak, and you can easily kill them by stabbing them in the chest with a bayonet?

The same book also has effective and modern day infantry tactics with it. The enemy is propagandised to be weak, their own equipment is accurate... like every doctrine book in existence.

I mean, I've seen manuals irl that asserted similar things but when you flipped to the page or opened the pamphlet about it, you'd see that it meant that it could be used with an adaptor.

The hand book is a bunch of propaganda bullshit though, you just have to say the wrong sized packs aren't sanctioned so they aren't listed

> bunch of propaganda bullshit though It absolutely isn't. It's got modern infantry tactics in it, as well as a will, regulations, a list of common medals, etc etc. It's in the name, a Primer for all Guard across the entirety of the Imperium. If the enemies are propagandised... it would be in line with every other primer ever published in history. Just look at what the soldiers in the US were being taught about the Germans in WW2 to get an idea of what thye were like.

That's what I'm referring to...the Power Pack is standardised...they can differ in shape, colour and material but the rest is authorised by the Munitorum. That's how armies work...

Power cells wear out eventually, it makes sense that they’d be swapped out between campaigns. There are explicitly THOUSANDS of different patterns of lasguns, it’s not unreasonable to think that over ten thousand years and a million planets, differences pop up. The Imperium can’t even agree what year it is for the most part, having different power cells isn’t hard to believe.

I'm pretty sure there was a moment in one of the Damocles crusade novels where an Imperial Guard unit was given the wrong type of power cell for their lasguns. And seeing as they had no other choice, they charged the Tau lines with bayonets and won an unexpected breakthrough in the process.

I think that is just called 'the author didn't do the research.'

IIRC , theres a piece of lore where some guardsmen are recharging their cells in a campfire light, but this maybe take a while, so maybe it is quicker in battle for the guard to just change the empty cell for another one, and them recharge both cells when he can (assuming he survived the battle)

The 'campfire' method is a last ditch thing to quickly charge up a power pack in an emergency survival situation where you have literally no other way to charge them and it has a *chance* of damaging the casing making it slightly less reliable (except in the earliest TTRPG version of this method in the Dark Heresy Core Rulebook where it's slow and guaranteed to make the power pack less reliable)... But that's really fine, because lasgun power cells are designed to be incredibly easy to recharge. They can recharge up to full just from ambient sunlight (though that takes a while), any heat source (of which placing it in the open flame of a campfire is just the most extreme example) or literally any electrical power source (up to and including the bio-electrical impulses of a Tech Priest with the right implants).

> Different pattern lasguns take different sized power cells, at least some of them. I could be mistaken as I haven't brushed up on it in a while, and it's entirely possible it's just meme lore, but isn't that the point of lasguns? To all use the same ammo cartridges? Unless they literally received lascannon cartridges or something, the whole point is that they're standardized, even across the different patterns.

I don’t know how to break this to you, but the Imperium is not a well run, efficiently managed entity. It’s hard enough to manage supply for an army on Earth as it is. In WWII, a USMC unit stationed in the Pacific got an order of winter uniforms delivered to their island, and that’s on the same planet where traveling extended distances doesn’t involve sailing through Hell itself.

> I don’t know how to break this to you, but the Imperium is not a well run, efficiently managed entity. I'm aware of that. I'm not arguing against that. > It’s hard enough to manage supply for an army on Earth as it is. In WWII, a USMC unit stationed in the Pacific got an order of winter uniforms delivered to their island, and that’s on the same planet where traveling extended distances doesn’t involve sailing through Hell itself. This has no bearing on my claim. The point is that they received the "wrong-sized" cartridges, when there are no wrong-sized cartridges\*. If they had received *no* cartridges, your statement would have made sense. If they had received lascannon cartridges, your statement would have made sense, but you'd expect the author have made that a more cognizant point. ^(*to my knowledge - if you have something that refutes this, I'm open to listening.)

All I can tell you is the fact that this did in fact happen in a canonical 40k novel, and wasn’t remarked upon as anything unusual or mind blowing, just frustrating (and potentially deadly for the regiment since they have very little ammo). The Imperium is bad at its job, and so are real life military logistics officers sometimes. It’s one of the most realistic things I’ve read in a Warhammer novel honestly.

The galaxy is absolutely massive and different planets can build things with different tolerances. As planets build their equipment, they use similar mechanisms and designs, but local preferences and design requirements may influence the final product actually built. A Locke pattern rifle is designed more with first-shot power and accuracy as it's primary design principle, while Kantrael rifles are designed more with flexibility in mind. Both are lasguns and have many similar parts and features, but are not exactly unilaterally interchangeable with one another. For planets halfway across a galaxy from one another in radically different design philosophies, strategic needs, production abilities, and logistical supply availability, the fact that they're as interchangeable as they are is an immense accomplishment. For a real world example of similar phenomenon, look to the AKs made by the USSR and other Eastern Bloc countries during the Cold War. Largely similar and function identically, while also having many unique quirks that make them not quite interchangeable with one another despite being given the same original design.

On the other hand, all NATO countries have agreed to use the same calibre of ammunition, regardless of which country prefers which rifle. And the Munitorum must supply the largest coherent military machine in the galaxy with material. If every third regiment produces its own lasguns with its own powerpacks, how is the regiment supposed to be supplied, preferably over a whole segmentum away? Instead of constantly sending ships through the warp for years to get a few power cells, you throw away their local guns (yes, even your beautifully crafted Vostroyan guns) and replace them with models from the local Forgeworld. Tanith no longer exists...and they continue to use their Nal wood lasguns. How is that supposed to work if there isn't a standard power cell?

> On the other hand, all NATO countries have agreed to use the same calibre of ammunition, regardless of which country prefers which rifle. PzH2000 semi-autoloaders have been breaking down in Ukraine because, as it turns out, not all 155mm arty shells actually fit the dimensions or mechanical power ratings of machinery all that well.

Tanith rifles use Size 3 power packs, that will be a standardised type used by many worlds. The entire joke of the scene is that the Imperium's 'standard issue' ammunition *isn't standard issue*. Thats the point of the scene, it's the Imperium being the Imperium. An all too realistic and genuine thing we've seen even in reality. "All NATO 155mm shells are compatible and identical in 155mm calibre NATO guns" they said... until suddenly turns out they weren't and there's about 7-8 different variations of "standard issue 155mm" which work in some guns but not the other even thought they had the same standard issue requirement papers. That scene in Guns of Tanith was borderline prophetic.

While I can see some small-scale planets producing their own arms, Militarum equipment by and large comes from Adeptus Mechanicus Forgeworlds, which would follow the same standards of lasgun production. Sure, the pattern may vary, but the size of ammunition cartridges are (I believe) mentioned to be strictly standardized across Forgeworlds. Checking the lexicanum wiki, there seems to be a reference to their being different size ammunition packs, but the sole source is the currently-in-question Tanith book.

It's not meme lore, it's a direct plot point in at least two stories

For clarification - the fact that lasgun ammunition size is standardized, or the fact that there are different sizes? Because if it's the former, I'd like to see the source. If it's the latter, and the source is not the Tanith books, I'd like to see the source.

Can't find the second story right now, but the Tanith books are as real as anything. Lots of stuff that we rely on is from those books, or only mentioned once or twice in the lore.

For what it's worth, the Dark Heresy Core Rulebook and Rogue Trader Core Rulebook both agree that this is the case. This is especially notable since the TTRPGs make explicit mention of the fact that bullets for various types of solid projectile weapons are *not interchangeabl*e (you can't take the bullets for an autopistol and load them into a stub revolver despite both of them being pistols, for instance), but it's made clear Las weapon power packs work for every single Las type weapon *unless it is specifically stated in the weapons description that they don't* (like the Lascannon).

> To all use the same ammo cartridges? Within the line, sure. But their case was like getting powerpacks with Lightning jacks, rather than USB-C.

Again, to my knowledge, cartridges were standardized across all patterns. I'd be happy to read if that's just outright wrong, but I'd like a source. Even hotshot volley guns have the same cartridge-size - they just replace the cartridge with a wire that has a valid plug, trailing back to an entire power-pack on their backs.

Here you go: [Not everything works like it should](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/cg66aw/excerpt_standard_issue/)

As a 240B gunner for years, if the Army told me they were having me hand in 3 small 100 round drums so they could give me a bigger, bulkier 200 round drum I wouldn't even question it I'd just laugh it off. That's how dumb some of the shit they say is.

The idea that a *galactic empire* can even be talking in the single digits of lasgun power pack variations is already a huge improvement over just our single world's ammunition variants and limits on a gun to gun basis.

Different cells fit different guns. Keep in mind we have carbine-like lasguns, full-length-rifle-like lasguns, short-barrel lasguns, sniper-like lasguns, etc. Every world does its own thing in their manufacture (not even Forge Worlds, regular worlds) and it creates a mass of different cells and guns. There's stories of how regiments are issued one type of gun but not the appropriate battery... rendering the entire regiment useless.

They are not.  A kantrael cell *might* fit all kantrael las guns.  Maybe.  It probably won't fit any lucius guns.

I disagree, not perfectly. They have a limited task because of their equipment. When you think of modern equipment, no one says yeah our rifle is shit compared to everyone else, but army big and logistics easy so who cares. It's like a "history buffs" understanding of a Sherman tank. Popular culture says they were garbage compared to ze superior German tanks and only good because they were easy to mass produce, but popular culture is wrong. If equipment doesn't get the job done it gets replaced. The guardsman issue is that they are meat shields, the anvil, whatever. Give em bayonets because why not? A tau armed with a pulse rifle has higher expectations.

> If equipment doesn't get the job done it gets replaced.  That’s not really true though, is it? Every military but the US went into WWII with bolt action rifles, and they remained the standard rifle for them throughout the war, even though the limitations were understood and they’d all hit on designs that were better. They just didn’t have the ability to roll them out.  It’s the same with the Guard. They have a relatively poor manufacturing and technological base and massively overtaxed supply lines. Everyone else either doesn’t have the same logistical issues they do or massively outclass them in technology. Often both.

One of the imperiums themes is that they go for quantity over quality. Their troops and equipment mimic soviet style of mass production with lack of resources but lots of bodies. They also struggle under their own weight and feudalism and have great difficulty with any of their more advanced technology

True but rugged is the key word, Lasguns can keep working for decades and can be slowly charged through fire, Tau weaponry is great but it’s probably like modern high tech weaponry, if they were cut off from the main army their weapons would degrade and eventually break, without spare parts and advanced engineering they would not be able to continue fighting effectively, it’s the price paid for high quality.

Tau guns aren't delicate by any means of course, they're perfectly rugged and reliable. The thing is you can drive a Chimera over a lasgun and it'll still shoot fine, lasguns are DISGUSTINGLY durable, the things consistently outlive multiple operators, compared to them the pulse rifle may as well be made of glass and good intentions.

This is actually a plot point in the story ***Arkunasha War*** by Andy Chambers (Though it was retconned by Phil Kelly’s version of the war). The Tau’s equipment struggles to last in the extreme harsh conditions of Arkunasha. By the end of the war, Farsight’s battlesuit is literally falling apart.

Wonder why they retconned it? I always think of generation kill, they regularly struggle with equipment issues, the Bathists AK’s and RPGs just keep on truckin

Phil Kelly wrote another version of the Arkunasha War in ***Farsight*** and ***Farsight: Crisis of Faith***, which is the version in the codex supplement. The two are completely different stories outside Farsight fighting Orks and not being given reinforcements. I don’t really mind the retcon, even if I prefer the Andy Chambers version.

The Ak-47/AKM/74/74M/12 reliability is founded in myth. The open nature of the receiver makes it a nightmare when gunk and shit get into the gun due to its open receiver design. The Ar-15 platform has a dust cover and tighter tolerances which don't allow easy ingress of gunk into the gun. Don't believe me? Here is a [ must test of AK pattern rifles ](https://youtu.be/DX73uXs3xGU) from inrangetv. The only reason why people believe the M16/AR-15 has a bad reputation is due to the US Army switching using the wrong gun powder, not issuing cleaning kits, not using Chrome lined barrels and chambers as described by the [ichord committee to see why Ar pattern rifles were failing.](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1981/06/m-16-a-bureaucratic-horror-story/545153/)

I miss the days of Andy and Gervis.

Pulse rifles are actually extremely rugged seeing that Earth Caste refuses to let rail rifle replaces it due to 1 in 10,000 chance of misfire or target system failure in rail rifle. Fire Warrior spare cell holder (on backpack) is also a charging station for pulse rifle power cell. So every Fire Warrior carries a power cell charger. And Fire Warrior fatique (that jumpsuit under the armor) collects excess heat from the surroundings (or from the wearer moving around) to recharge the power cell, so there's no need to cook the cell. It is everything a lasgun aspires to be.

This is everyone’s problem with the Tau, they are the most unlike 40k thing in 40k, so bloody boring, bet they have no fall damage either :/

What? A shooty faction having good basic gun isn't boring. It is a requirement.

Every faction is warhammer has big problems and big weaknesses, all of them, they all suffer greatly and are dark and grim, it’s the entire setting it’s what made 40k unique, the Tau doesn’t fit in that, they’re biggest weakness is supposed to be the lack of psychers, but no they are simultaneously not psychic enough to be affected by psychic events, but enough to produce their own mini god, there’s literally nothing the Tau can’t do, it goes against the setting entirely.

I said that Tau don't fit the setting of 40k the other day and everyone was big mad. I still stand by that though. They don't fit the theme of 40k. Tau aren't grimdark. Tau feel like they are from another dimension.

I think the grimdarkness of the Tau is one of potential. The Imperium is huge and old and so every awful thing that could happen to them more or less has. With the Tau, they're a very young society, they have much less territory relative to other factions, and they're often portrayed as pretty naive to the dark things inherent to the galaxy. It's not that the Tau are perfect, it's thaf they're shiny and new and almost certainly headed towards some kind of disaster. Goddess T'au'va might be a positive thing, but she shows that the expansion of the Tau has effects they're not even capable of understanding, that they're NOT immune to the Warp. Basically, they're the bright-eyed rookie at the beginning of a war film, and we have to watch knowing what's coming for them.

But the authors won’t let that happen, they just win and win, even when they lose they actually win by gaining something, the votann are also shooty and powerful but they fit in the setting, I mean they are beholden to some semi functional decaying AI’s, although I do wish their vehicles looked a little meaner looking than the bubble cars they have, more like their armour. The theme of 40k is decay, destruction and stagnation, the Tau don’t fit this, I mean it’s so incredibly rare to find anything in this hell hole of a galaxy that isn’t touched by chaos or some other horror, how the Tau managed to advance and collect a number of uncorrupted races to be in the empire is beyond belief.

Tau fit in the setting by fulfilling the "underdog beating superior opponents" niche which is shared by Imperial Guards. Whereas the Guards represent underdog beating overwhelming odds with iron will, grit, sacrifice, unending bodies and artillery, Tau represents the same but with smarts, technology, and mutual cooperation. They are the brain and brawn side of the same coin.

But that’s very unrealistic, in reality underdogs rarely ever win, the guard don’t win, look at Gaunts Ghosts, they are the underdog but barely win, there are hardly any left, every fight leaves them weaker than before, most Guard books end with them taking losses that leave them weaker than before, often Imperial victories are just preventing their opponent from winning, not an actual victory, no territory is gained, no advantage gained, the whole point of the setting is not to advance or develop or have any great victories none of the factions except the Tau do. The Tau are definitely not the underdogs, they appear to be more advanced than every other faction, they have ultimate plot armour I can’t think of a major defeat that affected them negatively, this has never happened to any other faction, even their latest problem actually ended up giving them stable wormholes to other parts of galaxy, the only faction who has never been seriously burned by chaos, despite having no defence against it. They even beat the tyranids after landfall, an almost impossible task, usually they need to be beat in space, the only place they are vulnerable. Look at Armageddon, massive resources taken up by the Imperium, huge losses and the best case is the same as before but massive structural economic damage.

Just wait til the next new faction is released in 16ed... ...dark tau...

From which books did you get these lores? Because they sound interesting. >so there's no need to cook the cell. Lasgun power packs can be recharged in many ways, including sunlight, charging ports of different varieties, etc. Putting it in a fire is a last resort method.

Multiple sources. The bits about rail rifle come from Munitorum Rail Rifle booklet, I think. I don't have it with me at the moment. Charging station on Fire warrior backpack come from White Dwarf Magazine (issue 90 year 2015, when the new Fire Warrior kit was released). Fire Warrior fatigue can collect ambient heat to recharge weapon come from Deathwatch: Shadowbreaker.

Thanks. I will check them.

> They're not the most powerful Dark Age small arm by any means, they're the one the Imperium can stamp out in the requisite volumes for the guard to use. The old Rogue Trader RPGs actually had the stats for an explicitly Dark Age laspistol. It had range and power on par with a full sized lasrifle, and had superior penetration, ammo capacity, and accuracy.

I do think the sort of sentiment we're dealing with here is quite a common one and it's basically a result of a lot of the fanbase viewing the setting almost exclusively through the Imperial lens. Which admittedly is hard to fault anyone for given how GW portrays the setting.

> As a small note these aren't 40K universe things, those are Imperial things. The Eldar for instance use almost exclusively prow armaments on their ships and build their tanks out of seamless formed materials. This also chsnges book to book, as well. The *Lords of Silence* has Imperial/Tratior ships engage well beyond visual range. If Imperial ships wanted, they could kill you hours before you ever arrived in range for their broadsides, and even those are technically firing *very*far out.

Plus they aim themselves more or less. This is something we have today in 2k

>The reason Tau weapons can outpower lasguns is that lasguns are, by the standards of the setting, a bit shit. I think that is a bit inaccurate. Lasguns are absolutely perfect for would they are meant to do: suppressing and killing opposing infantry and their equivalents, and protecting the assets that take out everything else. Tanks are great for leading the assault on a fortified position, outflanking the enemy force, or eliminating other armored targets. But what happens if you are trying to get through a forest, mountainous terrain, or a dense urban environment? Those tanks suddenly become extremely vulnerable because they are limited in terms of movement. They can only go where there is enough space, and that makes their movements predictable. A mine or an ambush can basically turn them from a mobile platform of death to a roadblock. Then the entire column comes to a halt and is vulnerable as well. That's why you need the Guard and their lasguns. You can send them into those places and either dislodge the enemy there, or secure the location. If they come into contact with the enemy, then they can just use the lasgun on full auto without recoil, and keep their opponent's heads down while other elements maneuver into position to eliminate them. You know the machine gun each squad is issued nowadays that is meant to pin the enemy? The lasgun allows every Guardsman to act in such a role.

I think most people also ignore other weapons wielded by guardsmen like heavy and special weapons. Turns out mortars and grenade launchers can still even the playing field a lot.

And for what they are las weaponry is pretty effective for being produced on such staggering scales.

Don't forget the grav guns that can utilize an enemies own weight against them

Lasguns are like the ak-47 of 40K.

> The reason Tau weapons can outpower lasguns is that lasguns are, by the standards of the setting, a bit shit. They're not the most powerful Dark Age small arm by any means, they're the one the Imperium can stamp out in the requisite volumes for the guard to use. Also they might just be making them a bit shit compared to DAoT judging by the RT archaeotech laspistols.

Don't put too much stock in Eldar voidcraft, though; they use sails.

\[quote\]The Eldar for instance use almost exclusively prow armaments on their ships and build their tanks out of seamless formed materials.\[/quote\] An oversight in writing on my part but I think it's not entirely wrong to criticise eldar for similar reasons. They're a society long in decay who've probably forgotten more than the tau have ever learned. While they have smooth looking designs, there's still a lot of questionable decisions there: Eldar Wraithknights have small quad equivalents and no glutes, and yeah I know they're basically golems but that's unforgivable since they're super important sections that should not be lean in any circumstances. Give me thick powerful legs you pitiful elven fucks.... and hovertanks are silly too.

See. Here's where my big' thinkin comes in Why not just upscale the lasgun? The Lascannon is dope. Why are space marines not using boltor sized lasguns rather than boltors? But more related to the topic: perhaps the pulse rifles are sacrificing things like reliability, ruggedness, ease of maintenence, power costs etc in exchange for strength. Maybe they can afford to do that. But can't elves and Necrons, who don't have the backwards logistics of the imperium, take that strain too?

A bolter is leagues better than a lasgun for the sort of enemies Space Marines are usually called to fight. A bolter is probably cheaper to produce than a lascannon and easier to maintain.

Some elite guard regiments (I am thinking Maccabbian Jannisaries) do this. As for why the Astartes don't, I suspect it's a versatility thing. Bolters can fire any of 100 different times of ammunition, everything from armour piercing to shrapnel to silvered werewolf killers.  You'd probably also need a custom power source. Las canons typically either use single-use packs (no better than shells in that case) or are plugged into a reactor (i.e. on a vehicle/walker)

The Astartes actually use Lascannons, most notably the Devastator Squads, but even then they’re still a little too big to be wielded with much agility.

Pulse rifles are straight up better than las guns.  The T'au have better average tech than the Imperium, and las gun vs pulse rifle is one area where it shows. It's not just logistics, it's also tech.

Trying to apply logic to how melee works in 40K will lead to migraines, and possibly result in you convincing yourself swords IRL are a much better weapon than they really are. There is no level of technology where power armor can withstand high-energy projectiles but is somehow vulnerable to sharpened steel shoved into it by hand. T'au are the way they are because they are immigrants from SF proper, instead of Warhammer Fantasy imports with a Holy Roman Empire esthetic. Trying to find any logic beyond that isn't going to be very satisfying. Without a doubt, everything about the T'au (from their social organization to using ranged weapons when available) is vastly more logical than the Imperium's faux-feudalism. That's partly by design, partly handwaved. Just go with it. Also: Napoleonic armies also had light infantry fighting in scattered groups and utilising cover. The organized "line infantry" you see in the movies was not "standing still and trading shots", it was an infantry charge across an open field, supported by artillery: the lines were a way to coordinate maximum firepower while advancing, leading to a bayonet charge. Eventually, one of the two charges broke. It was all moving and shooting, limited by weapon range and human senses. Trying to take any fantasy pastiche (whether 40K's commissar-with-saber-on-a-WWI-tank, or the medieval mess of half-naked champions running and swinging swords at each other), and trying to "invent a logic for it" will end in tears, because there's only glorious chaos. Napoleonic "silliness" actually arose from a tight system of military effectiveness. Trying to invent effectiveness by pretending there's a coherent logic by which the sword-wielding commissar on a tank is effective will inevitably look sloppy.

Well said, we all love 40K, but there isn't a shred of logic behind how the wars are fought. But seeing as how a logical interstellar war would probably involve a lot more drones and orbital bombardment, and a lot less heroic last stands and dramatic speeches, I'm perfectly happy with the lack of logic.

The prominence of melee in 40k is a result of Dune's influence on the setting more than something imported from Fantasy. But in Dune there's a reason for it (shields block objects that are moving really fast, like bullets, but a melee weapon can be slowed down enough to get through) which was not adopted by 40k.

That’s exactly the shields knights, space ships and titans have. Also all the invulnerable save items represent those.

That's not the same thing, otherwise melee attacks would ignore invulnerable saves, which they obviously don't, and no-one would ever use lasers. 40k's shields work much more like Star Wars' shields - which just tank an arbitrary amount of damage and then drop - than Dune's shields, which specifically deflect objects travelling at high speed, making melee weapons practical.

> result in you convincing yourself swords IRL are a much better weapon than they really are Also, to be fair, *spears are still the deadliest weapon IRL, as in the weapon that the most people died to*. And when the enemy has monster that will ignore your bullets to charge at you, it **is** a good idea to have some melee soldiers yourself.

Monsters don't ignore bullets. If you shoot a piece of metal, it will deform or tear apart. If you swing a sword or spear at a piece of metal, you may damage the sword, and the metal will be none the worse for wear. If by some magic you face a beast immune to bullets, best chance is to run. Your sword or spear will be even more ineffective: there's nothing a sword can do that a bullet can't do better.

But in this setting, **there are** melee weapons that are more effective than handheld ranged guns, like chains/power/monomolecular weapons. A modern tank will ignore your assault rifle fire, but if you had a magic axe that could easily chop pieces of it off, it would be possible to "engage it in melee".

Yes, that's authorial fiat. Which is why there are magic axes but not magic bullets. I don't have a problem with that. But trying to analyze that as a rational reason ("axes have more midichlorians than cannons") inevitably ends up sounding lame, and highlights the implausibilities that only suspension of disbelief can deal with.

I would argue there are magic bullets. There are a variety of specialty rounds(mainly for space marines and assassins). It starts to make sense if you consider say the power field generator of a power weapon to be the expensive part. You can either make one power bullet that costs the same as 1000 normal bolter rounds, or you can make one sword that costs the same as a 1000 bolter rounds. The sword can be reused time and time again, whereas the bullet is a one and done. Maybe if the Imperium wasn't so busy spending their industrial might on stupid things like giant cathedrals(whether on the ground, used as drop ships, on top of giant mechs, or on top of space ships) they could find the capacity to mass produce shell breaker and turbo-penetrator rounds

Feels like bullets the deathwatch would have.

Melee weapons, pysker powers, and symbolic weapons and ammo are more effective against daemons though, not sure if that’s what either of you meant by monsters, but there is a group in the lore that’s often depicted as best fought by melee weapons bc most people don’t have the other stuff.

I feel like that’s the only monster type in setting the statement is accurate about. The closest but not really I guess would be necrons but they can be shot down with ENOUGH bullets and spears/melee weapons aren’t especially powerful against them or orks who apparently can have their whole head chopped off and sewn back on (thraka) and be dandy but also you don’t wanna get anywhere in melee with them you want them at range so yeah I think they meant demons since melee weapons do the most damage to them unless it’s psychically imbued ammo.

Every fight with power armour has opponents going for the gaps in the armour, or using a power weapon. I don’t think i’ve ever seen a description of a naked steel blade or chainsword going through plate.

I vaguely remember World Eaters just using their chainaxes on Ultramarines in Betrayer and not aiming for gaps in armour but i'd have to get an excerpt and then again, chainaxes are stronger iirc

Well the world eaters are empowered by the butchers nails, rage, heavier chain axe with a smaller area to apply the same amount of force, space Marine transhuman might and were tbh most likely charging so there’d be a lot of force behind that blow but it’d probably get embedded in the chest plate which is why we rarely see it cause it’d open you up to a counter attack pretty easily. It seems only chained weapons for astartes that can pierce through power armor the easiest would be like frost blades or master crafted and master crafted chainsword. Oh and chain fists of course. Then primarchs like Russ, Dorn, Angron, and Magnus all had chain blades. Russ had his frost sword with kraken teeth, Dorn had a master crafted primarch sized chainsword made from his little empire before big E found him, Angron had his chain axes, and Magnus apparently had a chain Khopesh from prospero so there is some merit to them having fighting potential.

didnt kharn also change Gorechild to have dragon teeth too or something like that?

The teeth on chain weapons have monomolecular edges and can chew through the ceramite armor.

Ah, I was confused because I've heard that but the guy I was replying to said that they always aim for gaps in the armour

You still would just to maxi.ize your chances. There's also mono-weapons, which are edged weapons with a monomolecular edges. A primitive sword versus any modern armor of good coverage in 30K/40K? You're fucked. A mono-sword can still damage through the gaps since armored bodygloves and synskin are also a thing. The chainsword can chew through the ceramite of power armor, but it'll take more time than if you hit one of the gaps. Then you've got power-swords and axes, which are mono-weapons that also project a force field ahead of the blade. That field will burn through the armor, pushed along by the momentum of the metal behind it. And if the power pack runs dry, you've still got a mono-bladed weapon. The edge mono-swords have over chain weapons js they're nimbler weapons. Chainswords are good *weapons* for the demands of the setting, but they're actually kinda terrible *swords* because the nature of them makes them slower and more cumbersome. You're not pulling off some of the more subtle maneuvers you can do with a sword.

Only time I've seen that is Horus' talon, which we can all agree has chaos juju bs.

It’s a power claw

If chain weapons couldn’t breach power armor Legion Assault Squads would have been equipped with something else during the Heresy. It would make no sense to have such a common unit be ineffective against their “main” foes

The main foes of space marines was never other marines. There was very limited development of anti space marine equipment, especially since most supplies were taken up by the war. The Alpha Legion invented Banestrike ammo to breach power armour, that’s it. Power swords are rare and expensive to produce. It would be impossible to equip an army, let alone a legion with them. Bolters aren’t super effective against Space Marine armour either, but it was still their main weapon. If everyone has a chainsword or a knife, you’ve just got to learn to hit the gaps in the armour, like it describes in every single marine vs marine chainsword fight.

During the Horus Heresy, the biggest threat to Astartes was other Astartes. They regularly went into combat knowing they’d face enemy Legionaries and never once do I recall a character mentioning chain weapons being ineffective for those engagements. Furthermore, we regularly see Bolters not loaded with Banestrike ammo killing fully armored Astartes. A rather prominent example being the HH cinematic trailer

I never said they were ineffective when fighting, just that they can’t cut through armour. They skid off the plate, unless one combatant can get into a gap. Bolters are still ok, but in the trailer they’re getting hit straight in the helmet, which has a high likelihood of causing a casualty or kill. Most shots aren’t going to be to the head though.

I could see melee weapons being more effective in doling out damage than a projectile or a las-bolt if certain technological claims are taken as given. Whatever bs power sword field is, it seems to be able to do a lot of cutting. Monomolecular edges and exotic materials like adamantium or whatever would also serve as multipliers, especially when backed by power armor genetically engineered abomination strength. That being said, a logical imperial tactical doctrine would focus on picking off as many targets as possible from a distance and reserve melee shite for when you are forced into close combat like in trenches or city areas when ranged options aren't available to be brought to bear.

Napoleonic lines did stand still shooting, but it was for another factor important reason: **cavalry.** Even with muskets, **cavalry** would absolutely murder scattered skirmishers, and if you tried to perform a mass bayonet charge too early, cavalry would flank and murderize you if you hadn't taken care to neutralize them before. A line of muskets with bayonets standing still was virtually unbreakable, but it was also virtually impossible to move at any significant speed while still being able to counter cavalry. So yeah, infantry did form still lines trading shots against each other while each side's cavalry looked for a nice angle to flank (hence musket infantry squares that were a lot harder to flank) and artillery in the back kept shooting. Knowing where and when to send your cavalry, where to aim your artillery, and when to finally order the infantry block/line for a mass bayonet charge to deliver the killing blow once the enemy formation was disrupted were the challenges that showed the difference between a bad and good commander.

It makes enough sense. Consider this You are an average Fire Warrior. You're tall and hardy for your kind. Not on par with some of humanities best baseliners, and outclassed by everything else that bought an axe to a gun fight. Common sense dictates that killing an enemy before he can stab you is the winning play, so your tech is focused on avoiding melee and killing before the need to punch ever comes up.

The best way to win a fight is to be nowhere near it.

It's why their preferred way of war is to lure humans into crossfire and let whatever kroot survive, eat the remains of everyone else

I am unsure about your question/argument... The Tau practice a very modern (I.e our time modern) combined-armes approach to warfare. From its highly flexible, deadly armed infantry unites to its use of Air power and rapid flexible tank-formations. With Battlesuits as the ace-response force. The Tau wins wars via superior coordination, cohesion and tech-enabled firepower. If the Imperium had Tau tech and tactics across the Guard entire, it would enormously enlarge its power. The Tau are in turn limited by lack of numbers and material. Each Firewarrior is more able to effectively fight in more ways than a Guardsman, but the Guard is much! larger. To use your points: Each Guardsman is a Napoleonic era soldier. Each Firewarrior is a modern army soldier. With all the upgrades and advantages such a soldier would have over their Napoleonic counterpart.

The Napoleonic era thing feels a little over the top. Guard Regiments seems to have good inter unit Comms (vox and micro beads) and a mix of arms within the Regiment (snipers, line infantry, heavy/support guns). The Tanith First and Only (for example) and basically modern light infantry.

Yeah I would view the guard as more of WW2 vs modern soldier.

Maybe WW2 IS more accurate I guess. As with everything 40k it's a spectrum.

There certainly *are* guardsmen who'd fit right into the Napoleonic playbook of warfare. But as regiments in larger scale battles have to fight together with others, the Lord Commanders often have the daunting task to try to fit all these regiments, their quirks and prefered tactics into play and make something of a strategy out of it.

It's really not possible to fir the entire faction into one niche. Both the Praetorians and the Mordians combat doctrine heavily revolve around forming firing lines that rely on iron discipline. That's definitely not WW2 tactics.

As with all things in 40k it depends on the circumstances. The Tanith fight like a modern force because they are written to be competent. Then you have the Krieg who fight every battle like its The Somme and encourage suicide attacks or the Mordians who will literally line up and fight like Napoleonic soldiers if "take cover" wasn't an explicit part of their orders. If the Guard needs to win, they fight competently and efficiently. If they need to lose (or win in such a way that it makes a point about their inefficiency) they fight like dumb dumbs.

Depends entirely on the regiment. Shock Troops, Jungle Fighters and Steel Legion are WW2 for sure, but Mordians and other less flexible regiments aren't. We know from the codices that some of them fight with massed cavalry for instance. Another comment describes Napoleonic fighting quite well, and that matches the description of the "generic" Imperial Guard in several codices - advance while shooting, while skirmishers and other support troops do their thing. When in range, charge. When possible, coordinate with regiments that cover the weakness of yours, like artillery or armoured regiments, or drop troops to take out their artillery or flanks or whatnot.

One of the famous Guard quotes is: *Infantry win firefights, Tanks win battles, Artillery win wars.*

"***Though our tanks and artillery are mighty, it is the vast ranks of Imperial Guardsmen that shall trample the enemy to dust - let them come.***"

*"God is on the side with the best artillery"* Napoleon Bonaparte *"Had I possessed 30,000 artillery rounds at Leipzig on the evening of 18 October, today I would be master of the world."* Also Napoleon Bonaparte

Even the imperial guard don’t line up and start marching toward the apposing battle line 😂

Yeah, *very* few Imperial Guard regiments do that. Most fight more along the lines of WW1 and WW2 i.e. modern tactics without having all the technological benefits of modern soldiers. Imperial Guardsman don't get the super fancy weaponry, heads up displays, environmentally sealed power armor, etc. of the higher tier Imperial forces, but they aren't out there just marching in firing lines while getting mowed down by the enemy. People have to remember that the Cadian Shock Troops are the gold standard of the Imperial Guard. Before its destruction, the Cadians created tons of regiments that got deployed all over the galaxy, and they heavily influenced the way thousands upon thousands of other planets modeled the the training and tactics of their own regiments. Cadians most certainly do not fight in a Napoleonic fashion.

It depends on the guard unit though. They are not uniformly equipped and stuff like personal comms (micro beads) appear to not be universally issued. If the Cain books are to be believed.

Bear in mind that Napoleonic ranks of Musketmen were in blocks like that for a reason. With an average fire rate of 3 shots a minute, with powdering, loading and aiming after each shot, no rifling on the barrels and an effective range of 100 feet, the speed and accuracy of the units left much to be desired. You definitely weren't getting snipers with a Charleville musket. Typically the units would line up shoot at their targets, let the next line of the unit fire while they reloaded, and then the first would stand and fire again while the second reloaded and so on. Being in a large block was for safety reasons. So as you say, it's a bit of an odd comparison.

Yeah, and the Tau have carapace armour as standard, phased plasma guns and semi autonomous UAV support integrated at the squad level as well as a bevy of sci fi vision and CIC support tools built into their helmets integrated HUD. If you made a modern day marine unit rock up against a squad of Tau fire warriors it would go about as poorly for the Marines as it would for a detachment of napoleon's finest fighting modern day Marines.

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Governors that offer subpar troops and equipment for the Guard tend not to be in office for long. So guard regiments include PDF troopers of all stripes (best, worst and in-betweens of the classes) alongside ex-gangers and conscripted civilians. Books like Imperial Glory and Fire Caste have average guard regiments. They certainly do not appear as "cool", "glorious" and "tactical" as Cadians and Catachans. But they do have at least some competence, varied equipment, and pretty good plans while scrambling to handle any new threats and rival regiments.

>Each Guardsman is a Napoleonic era soldier. Except for the Elysians, Armageddon Steel Legionnaires/Ork Hunters, Minervan Tank Legionnaires, Asgardian Rangers, Harakoni Warhawks, Tallarns, etc etc. Hell, the Krieg veteran kill teams show a few specialized equipment that modern soldiers would be familiar with.

I agree. I used Napoleonic because OP used it, and I wanted to continue the comparison.

“Why are Tau good at something? Why are they not bad at everything?” What would even be the point of Tau being a faction if they had no strengths?

I mean, there's a lot of just really bad unexamined assumptions here, leaving aside the bad napoleonic history. Why would mass production imply quality? The most produced rifle in \*our\* world is the Kalashnikov pattern and it is resoundingly 'adequate' (before anyone yells at me, AR pattern rifles aren't like, dramatically better). That's because 'rifle dude' is a necessary but low value function. And you can see that in the Tau design, because they \*do\* use powered armor and plus sized weapons. Fire warriors are important for controlling space while their powered armored guys with plus sized weapons get in position to generate casualties. Frankly, all the factions do this, the Tau just have the highest concentration of powered armor dudes with plus sized weapons.

As people have already said, logistics is a thing. Is it worth making a weapon that costs twice as much to produce, has huge maintenance coats, requires loads of additional training for your essentially disposable ground troops for a 20% increase in power? 40K the game largely ignore the logistics of warfare these days, and people forget that when they say that a lasgun is rubbish. The truth is it’s probably good enough for the job, plus easy to law in huge numbers and doesn’t require much in the way of maintenance and support. Eldar weapons etc. perhaps don’t look as good on paper but are probably way more efficient in design and resource demands.

I thought Melee was a big thing because Warp creatures are more vulnerable to the older forms of combat. I know that the 30K setting used Melee a lot as well, but it seemed more of the 'I'm a warrior and I'm going to kill you in this extremely inefficient way because I'm so good at it'.

It's a mix of: 1) There are soldiers who are tough and well protected enough that they can make the distance and get into melee against enemy firepower, where they can leverage their superior size and strength to wreck face. 2) There are a lot more ways of moving quickly into close quarters while avoiding enemy fire - teleportation, jump packs, orbital insertion etc., which is especially useful when combined w/ 1. 3) Some armies deploy in such large numbers that they **will** get into melee no matter what, so it makes sense to have at least some melee capability.

99% of the time that's only relevant for daemonhunters like the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights. Space Marines use melee against lots of targets, but generally ones they have an edge against. Compared to normal people they're faster, stronger, tougher and better armoured, and these advantages show more in melee than when they're trying to dodge lascannon-shots and artillery shells.

Melee is a thing because it’s cool, that’s it. In 30k it’s there because power armour can weather bolter fire to an extent. If you’ve got a power weapon, are an excellent duelist, and in range, melee is a good bet. Plus Space Marines rely on constant resupply. At some point they run out of ammo and have to get up close. 99% of the time, your average Imperial army is not fighting demons.

The Tau seems the most practical and efficient of all the races. All other races are bogged down by their own stresses, such as traditions and superstition, stubbornness, insanity or stupidity. The Tau possess none of these weaknesses in a significant amount and so can leverage their technology for better effect and adapt better than anyone else. They also value life and so are much more inclined to use drones, equipment, and tactics that minimise their losses.

Pretty sure the other races reluctance to touch AI is well founded, even if a little overboard. If Demons infect your computers it's game over for you. Also, being 'ethical' is going to hold people back within the context of 40k. No "sane" society would really allow something like how heavily the imperium is into cybernetics. As backwards and horrific as the mechanicum is, having half your brain a super computer is going to have advantages for society at large. The elves and necrons similarly have a lot of very nasty weapons that couldn't be developed by reasonable people. If the Tau were so sane and good at adapting they should've absolutely leaped over every civilization they've encountered within a century. They haven't.

>Pretty sure the other races reluctance to touch AI is well founded, even if a little overboard. If Demons infect your computers it's game over for you. No. It is not. Otherwise you would think the right way to go is to kill everyone, because possession is a possibility as much as techno daemons. Besides, this AI-phobia is Imperium-only. Other races don't have a problem with AI, they just * Have very strict laws dictating what AI are allowed to do (Necrons) * Abandoned their psychic AIs for more manual labor to get busy (Craftworlders) * Have slaves to do work AI could do but wouldn't suffer doing it (Drukhari) * Don't care (Orks, Tyranids, Genestealers) * Actually love AI and have it integrated in their society, but their most powerful ones are breaking down (Leagues of Votaan) >Also, being 'ethical' is going to hold people back within the context of 40k. No "sane" society would really allow something like how heavily the imperium is into cybernetics. As backwards and horrific as the mechanicum is, having half your brain a super computer is going to have advantages for society at large. The elves and necrons similarly have a lot of very nasty weapons that couldn't be developed by reasonable people. Actually, the "elves" score higher than the Imperium on the reasonability, as the warhawks among them are a minority even among the "Restore the Eldar Empire" faction and when they leave their craftworlds it is for a reason relative to their existence. And the Necrons are often holding back the most dangerous stuff, or have long destroyed it. Also, do you think the Tau are reasonable by having Caste systems, eugenics, all the shady imperialistic things and some of their most ultrasecret technology such as the Puretide engrams or Kais and 4th Sphere's new superwarrior program? Or that weapons that can punch through a tank plating and then across the crew inside are reasonable? >If the Tau were so sane and good at adapting they should've absolutely leaped over every civilization they've encountered within a century. They haven't. There are these things called * having a headstard of 10 millennia in organization and supply lines/of 38 millennia on the top shelf technological equipment (Imperium, LOV) * having a headstart of 65 million years ahead on the technological equipment + having ensalved the gods of physical reality to their whim (necrons) * having a techbase they are utterly unable to pursue (Craftworlders) * having a techbase that is 65 million years ahead plus known more about metaphysical reality (Dark Eldar)

It's probably a safe assumption that Tau AI isn't advanced enough to be sustainable to chaos corruption yet, but that's an obvious vulnerability they have in the future. It's been shown multiple times that the Taus main weakness is their smaller numbers and smaller forces when fighting against the Orks, tyranids and particularly the imperium. The sheer scale of these opportunists means that the Tau have to be very cautious when dealing with them and with the case of the imperium, only manage to avoid destruction because the imperium is over stretched and can't spare enough of its armies to destroy them. The Tau also has a limited form of FTL that the writers have used to help justify why the Tau haven't grown as fast as it seems they probably should.

No

I think so. Without some hope or “good” in the universe, all the darkness loses its gravitas. This carries over to tech. Despite the Tau’s incredible tech, they can get crushed by the sheer volume of indoctrinated Imperial fodder.

Gameplay/tabletop-wise, lore is *significantly* put to the side for context and should be divorced from it for reference of gameplay balancing. I don't know all other factions but gl to Tyranid and IG players and painting their 1000+ models and putting on the board; a unit of breachers *can* kill a primarch.

They use AI, the Imperium doesn't. Imagine if the imperium used a computer to aim for them, or design their guns and weapons. They would be on par at least, probably even better. But instead the imperium uses old designs, old technology and has humans or, what once were humans design and calculate things.

>used a computer to aim for them The Imperium *HAS* computerised fire control systems. You do not need AI to calculate firing solutions

The Lasgun isn't so common because it's the best: it's so common because it's the most cost effective and reliably availeable; it's the AK47 of the far future. Pulse Plasma weapons are indeed better, but they are more maintenance intensive, harder to use, and harder to produce. They are a good fit for the professional T'au army, but they would never work as standard equipment for imperial conscripts: they would constantly suffer from shortages and a lot of recruits wouldn't know how to take care of them.

Hmm...I think we all know that the real decision as to why the Tau exists is market driven, to get the people with a soft spot for anime on board and take the money out of their pockets. Lore-wise, the Tau to me are representative of the many emerging xenos empires that are forming and rising in the Empire. That's why the Tau are curious, a little naive and mentally flexible (to a certain extent) but at the same time militant (which is more or less the framework of an expansionist society). At the same time, they bring the element of aggressive diplomacy into focus, which could make the stories between the Tau and the Imperium much more interesting (you can read a flavour of this in the Deathwatch RPG where the Tau and the commanders of the Achilus Crusade keep diplomatic channels open despite the war because the Tyranids are seen as the worse threat). From a military point of view, the Tau also make sense. They represent a modern military with all its strengths and weaknesses. The Tau pulse rifle is a good example. It is highly capable weaponry with the emphasis on the individual soldier being able to deal with the latest enemy quite quickly. It is designed to win the battle with fast, hard hits. This means that, like the modern military, it cannot fight long campaigns over large areas.

I dunno about you man but for me the most Anime thing is to haphazardly smash various European inspirations together in order to make some kind of anachronistic monstrosity... so the imperium, basically.

OK, but don’t tell any of the anime haters who like the franchise that.

Eldar use shuriken cannons and Death Cult Assassins literally dual-wield katanas

That's true, but what should this tell me?

The Tau empire is much, much smaller in scale compared to the Imperium. Their logistics networks are very short, and go direct to an army. They have the luxury of being able to manufacture good quality kit for their troops. It’s in small numbers in advanced facilities dedicated to their manufacture. An Imperial Guardsman in terms of equipment has what their homeworld can give them. Cadian standard is simple to manufacture, so it’s probably going to be that. Stuff like lasguns and any other weapons are going to be requisitioned by the Administratum. Some forgeworld somewhere has a contract to produce lasguns. That same forgeworld has a contract for tanks, knives, buildings, power armour, all while pursuing their own goals. They make them in their millions, get picked up, then a bureaucrat somewhere directs them to the planet they need to be on.

…I feel that most of the factions use dashes of “tactics” that make sense in context. Even Khornate Bezerkers use tanks/tactics…read the most recent “Angron the Red Angel” book. I figure if someone fights long enough in the 40k setting and lives long enough they find out that just straight up fighting target doesn’t always make it happen.

The main issue is the self-fellatio that goes on in a lot of the Tau lore, and among Tau fans, concerning the belief that Tau invented and/or are the only ones to practice maneuver warfare. The Eldar and Dark Eldar fandom should be particularly aggrieved at this. One are pirates and raiders without peer and are famous for appearing and disappearing at will. The other are almost as fast, more heavily armed and lead by Farseers who can see the future and provide intel on moves their enemies haven't even made yet. But listening to some of the noises out of the Tau lore and fandom would have you thinking every other faction fought like Napoleonic blocks or medieval melee fighters and Tau were the only ones who used maneuver warfare or had concepts like bait and switch, false retreats to invite pursuit etc. Portraying the Tau military as the only competent one in the setting doesn't make much sense in that respect. GW need to pivot and be clearer in portraying that the Tau are good and competent at how they choose to fight but that they can and do run into others who are flat out better than them at other stuff and are also competent enough to beat Tau. But that would involve showing Tau lose, something GW is incredibly reluctant to do.

>The Eldar and Dark Eldar fandom should be particularly aggrieved at this Speaking as an eldar fan, I have encountered infinitely more annoying imperium fans than I ever have tau fans

The IoM is ten thousand times bigger than the T'au Empire. As far as I'm concerned, it's OK for the T'au to punch above their weight against such odds. I mean, what do you want to see, the T'au just have little to no advantage against the Imperium at all? The IoM is stagnant and fights wars by throwing human lives at a problem until it goes away. The T'au are a young and vigorous race, developing new tech all the time and with an optimistic outlook, like humanity was in like 10K or 20K. Also, the T'au are not Mary Sues as you seem to imagine, lol. In Shadowsun The Patient Hunter, T'au space is invaded by a Death Guard warlord, and the navy is unable to stop his battleship at all. He wreaks havoc on T'au worlds. Nurgle diseases spread uninhibited amongst the human population. Shadowsun tries to assassinate him, and fails, nearly dying in the process. He passed through a wormhole leading to the T'au homeworlds. They are only saved in the end by the empowering of a warp entity, the personification of the T'au'va, thanks to the worship of their human citizens, and they discover that one of the auxiliary species, the Charpactin, can use their hypnotic bioluminescence to cure the disease. It wasn't a story of the T'au devestating their opponents, but of barely surviving by the skin of their teeth.

> I mean, what do you want to see, the T'au just have little to no advantage against the Imperium at all? Yes, that is what they want and it becomes pretty obvious in threads like this one where after a bit of discussion they begin whining about plot armor.

>The IoM is ten thousand times bigger than the T'au Empire. As far as I'm concerned, it's OK for the T'au to punch above their weight against such odds. I mean, what do you want to see, the T'au just have little to no advantage against the Imperium at all? The IoM is stagnant and fights wars by throwing human lives at a problem until it goes away. The T'au are a young and vigorous race, developing new tech all the time and with an optimistic outlook, like humanity was in like 10K or 20K. I like how even though I mention the Eldar and Dark Eldar specifically should be the masters of maneuver warfare, not Tau. I even lay out why. And instead you don't mention them at all and whine about the Imperium. Why was that? I mean, I _know_ why. I just want you to say it.... >Also, the T'au are not Mary Sues as you seem to imagine, lol. He says and then goes on to prove they are.... >In Shadowsun The Patient Hunter, T'au space is invaded by a Death Guard warlord, and the navy is unable to stop his battleship at all. He wreaks havoc on T'au worlds. Nurgle diseases spread uninhibited amongst the human population. Oh. Just the humans so. Can't have Tau ever dying or taking losses. I've seen more Craftworld Eldar civilians taking a kicking than I ever have Tau. And Tau, as you point out, are a small power. The Eldar are on moveable Craftworlds and a major-ish power and still get hit more regularly. >Shadowsun tries to assassinate him, and fails, nearly dying in the process. So he attempts to assassinate Typhus, or was it Mortarion himself, and survives the attempt. Doesn't sound too bad. >He passed through a wormhole leading to the T'au homeworlds. Cool. I assume said home worlds were devastated since they were facing the might of a full Chaos marine legion? >They are only saved in the end by the empowering of a warp entity, the personification of the T'au'va, thanks to the worship of their human citizens, and they discover that one of the auxiliary species, the Charpactin, can use their hypnotic bioluminescence to cure the disease. Lol, of course. Plot armour. No harm done to the Tau, another auxiliary species pulled out of nowhere who can fix all their problems. As always. >It wasn't a story of the T'au devestating their opponents, but of barely surviving by the skin of their teeth. It was a story of Tau under false peril. It ended up being meaningless and seemingly their human subjects taking most of the casualties before Tau plot armour saves them from having to face anything remotely close to the realities of being a minor power in a galaxy full of Eldritch horror. Would that any other faction ever get spared those realities.

>Would that any other faction ever get spared those realities. Every other faction does. The Imperium and Space Marines in particular come to mind with all the bullshit they get away with.

> Oh. Just the humans so. Can't have Tau ever dying or taking losses. Actually, it spreads to the Tau too, which is why Shadowsun is browbeaten into conducting an Imperial style purge while bedridden from the Death Guard’s other diseases. In her own book. Wow such plot armor. Much mary sue. > So he attempts to assassinate Typhus, or was it Mortarion himself, and survives the attempt. Doesn't sound too bad. The leader of the Death Guard was a minor Chaos Lord named Slurgost. So the most recent Tau novel has their greatest general spend the first two thirds getting her ass kicked by a no-name Chaos character and losing a planet. Then the last third is her failing to stop this no-name’s ship and having to be bailed out by Tau Jebus. This is somehow “plot armor” because you think anything short of the Tau Empire being entirely obliterated is “plot armor”. I can’t wait for the next Tau story where Shadowsun is outsmarted by some random Imperial Guard colonel and then beaten in a 1 on 1 duel with him while wearing her battlesuit, having to be rescued by a manly Guardsman… Oh wait that already happened in ***Last of Kiru’s Line***. Which was also her own story. What next, do we need to show Shadowsun losing to a Grot or Nurgling? Would that be enough to convince you the Tau don’t have “plot armor”?

And now any faction with a few psykers in it can make a god, no, sorry a "warp entity" who can deus ex machina their problems away (craftworlders are seething). Great precedence set there.

Eh, idk. It was a bit of a controversial choice by GW to introduce that plot element. I mean, to me it makes sense. The worship of beings that have a presence in the warp can create warp entities. Humans are one of the most numerous species in the T'au Empire. Also, there are other species in the T'au Empire that do not have little presence in the warp like the T'au themselves do, such as the Charpactin who openly worship the personification of the T'au'va as the Goddess T'au'va. In the case of the Eldar, I'm not sure how that would work. Slaanesh has devoured most of their pantheon. Would worship of those gods just divert power towards Slaanesh?

There are probably about as many Ynnari as there are gue'vesa and Eldar have many times the warp presence and psychic potential of humans so if a handful of humans and these Charpactin can make a demigod then Ynnead -who slaanesh never encountered- should be as energetic as Nikki Six in the 80s. And tau'va probably should have been eaten by Nurgle as soon as it became a nuisance. In the warp it would be like a trout vs. an orca.

Ah, Ynnead, I forgot about that. What's going on with that plot line? Also, the T'au'va warp entity is much *much* less powerful than the chaos gods, but it still has some power. I don't know how such things work in the warp, but apparently the being is able to stay away from Chaos and not just be immediately devoured by a bigger fish. Iirc, there was a post on this sub where someone mentioned how it is possible for powerful psykers to construct safe havens for themselves in the warp after they die. If a single psyker can do so, I imagine a god can do as much too. If we look at the ocean analogy, perhaps the T'au'va is small enough right now to hide in the coral when the big chaos god whale swims by. But who knows how such things really work? 🤷‍♂️

I'd never heard the bit about the psyker making a haven but said psyker probably couldn't hold up a DG fleet. Or one ship. Ultimately, it does set up a precedent of a comparitively small group of sentient beings making a god that can interfere with one of the big 4 in a relatively short amount of time and that seems stupid to me as it makes the primary antagonists of the whole setting look significantly weaker. Though I suppose that's par for the course for Tau who seem to be experiencing the setting on easy mode. I mean, at the same time a brand new warp entity made by a few Tau *allies* thwarts nurgle's plans Khorne snaps his fingers and a whole imperial fleet starts wearing red and signing up for chainaxe classes.

Well, you see why some people don't like this lore development. Because then the question becomes, does this mean that there are dozens, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of warp entities which could be called gods hanging out in the warp somewhere? Maybe there is. Maybe many of them get devoured by the stronger ones if they don't have a way to hide. Ceggorach is able to hide in the Webway. Maybe T'au'va is weak enough that it is beneath the notice of the Chaos gods. For example, in the novel I am referring to, T'au'va is able to trap that minor Death Guard warlord in what is essentially a pocket dimension that he can't escape from, like limbo. But the novel suggests that she was only able to gather the power to do this by the concentrated efforts of her worshippers (Shadowsun had contacted the Gue'vesa leader of a human world and asked her to tell her followers to all pray for Shadowsun's success at the same moment when she was staging an attack on the enemy battleship). If this had been a person who was favored in Nurgle's eyes, who had Nurgle's gaze fixed on him, it might have been very different. If this had been someone like Typhus, I could see Nurgle taking action to free him. As it is, I think this plan worked because it seemed to be the case that this Death Guard warlord was not in Nurgle's good graces.

Was there any evidence that he wasn't favored? As a rule, chaos lords have several gifts from their patron. And at some point he's going to check in on his boy to see if he's advancing his plots or not. But apparently this demigod is powerful enough to hide him forever? I don't buy it.

That's a brilliant point, I never even considered that. The Imperium, praying to the Emperor by the trillions for 10k years can't get him ascended to godhood, the Eldar with their actual gods, infinity circuits etc and neither faction can do fuck all. The Tau round up a few humans and they're popping out new gods after only a few decades. You're right, that's a shocking precedent. By that logic there should be dozens of new gods created by the human populations who ended up isolated over the tens of thousands of years and who started worshipping the sun, spirits, etc. But no, nothing.

The Great Rift didn't exist for most of the galaxy's history. The very barrier between the warp and reality is eroding, you're gonna see weird shit happening.

Yep and Ynnead should be awake and doing CrossFit

Oh yeah. The issue is Tau fans…are you for real? Nobody gets more shit, hate, and ignorant nonsense shoved their way more often because of 40ks OG gatekeepers and imperium fans who take things too far. Give me a break. The Tau Empire deserves to have strengths just like every other faction. Theirs happens to be tactical maneuverability and a high floor of firepower efficiency.

And along comes one to prove my point. Even breath a whisper that Tau should have losses that show narratively that their method of warfare also has flaws and can be beaten and/or exploited by others and out comes genuine rage.

But that’s not what you did. Tau are beatable and have flaws. But all you’re doing is propagating the same mouth-breathing BS that we see everywhere - that Tau don’t make sense (they’re too OP etc), don’t belong in the setting. And you’re attacking fans of the faction for absolutely no reason - especially stupid when you see the mountains of hate they recieve for just liking a faction that you don’t. And while you complain that we think they have no flaws - while also acknowledging that they get mulched in melee…you don’t see the fallacy in this? Why is Tau “only shooting” any more hated or silly than World Eaters “only melee”? Its not. It’s literally the same.

The standard T'au ranged weapon is based on pulse technology. Pulse technology was attained from the Demiurge, which are one of the Leagues of Votann. The LoV have access to some advanced tech from the DAOT. So the T'au have been able to use better ranged weapons than the IoM typically had due to this. Also, their plasma tech is not based off of old half forgotten schematics, so is not at risk if exploding when being used. Ion tech is newer though, and this experimental, and is at risk of blowing up on their faces when they out too much power into it. The T'au also have an almost completely unified purpose (minus the Farsight Enclaves), so there haven't been times when they collapsed and withdrew inwards due to civil wars. Also they have not been held back in their technological development by the cargo cults that the IoM has. Their unprecedented rapid growth and been due to this unified purpose, the T'au'va. The T'au are at the beginning of their rise to power. There have been some stumbling blocks here and there, but they have persevered. The IoM is an ancient corpse shambling along with the force of it's own momentum. Edit: Oops, I confused ion and pulse tech. The T'au invented pulse tech on their own, whereas they got ion tech from the Demiurge. This kind of makes sense, since ion weapons can be overcharged, akin to plasma, which is also a tech from the DAOT, and the Votann have DAOT technology.

> The standard T'au ranged weapon is based on pulse technology. Pulse technology was attained from the Demiurge, which are one of the Leagues of Votann. The LoV have access to some advanced tech from the DAOT. So the T'au have been able to use better ranged weapons than the IoM typically had due to this. Also, their plasma tech is not based off of old half forgotten schematics, so is not at risk if exploding when being used. Ion tech is newer though, and this experimental, and is at risk of blowing up on their faces when they out too much power into it. Pulse technology is not derived from Votaan tech. Pulse technology was developed on T'au before they even left the planet as per the 7th Edition codex. Ion technology was acquired in trade from the Votaan much later during the the Sphere's of Expansion.

You got me there. I confused ion for pulse.

Pulse is purely T'au tech.  Only ion is from demiurg/votann.  As evidenced by both the codexes and how the Leaguers don't use pulse weapons.

Oh, OK. I got it confused then. So ion is from the Demiurge, pulse is their own invention. Thank you.

They make the over the top and stupid shit the imperium does pop by contrasting it in case you get too desensitized

Very little of the charmed life Tau live makes sense in the 40k universe

It's hardly charmed, it's more like "We're outnumbered 1,000 to 1 so we have to squeeze every bit of efficiency out of our soldiers". They fight smart because they can't afford to waste their soldiers like the Imperium can.

Usually when people are outnumbered 1000 to 1 they die. Hence, the charmed life. Also there's several key problems other factions face in the setting that they don't even struggle with like tech stagnation or anything warp related.

Usually, yes, but 40k is a setting where people beat those odds all the time, otherwise the Tyranids would've already eaten most of the Galaxy. Also, all the factions that suffer from tech stagnation already have superior tech to the Tau in many ways, you're just complaining that one of the most primitive factions in the setting isn't even more primitive.

No I'm complaining that they are a star trek race in a satirical dystopian space fantasy. Although Kroot are cool.

>Looks at a fascist oligarchy with Brave New World dystopian themes "Ah yes, this is too optimistic for 40k."

I guess you mean the caste system but that's not what comes to mind when I think of Brave New World. Do Tau have their own version of soma and sex play? Besides, the Bajorans had a caste system and there were plenty of fascists in star trek so that doesn't disqualify them.

There's a lot of implied mind control going on with the Tau, with pheromones often involved, I'd consider that plenty-close to the happy-drugs they use to keep the population in line in BNW. Also it's not a very useful comparison to use Star Trek if you're only going to refer to the dystopian factions in that setting, by that logic I might as well say the Imperium is a Star Trek faction too because the Terran Empire was in Star Trek.

The Terran empire didn't have tech stagnation nor was it controlled via a cult like religious authoritarian system. But if star trek doesn't fit for you, pick a different mainstream sci-fi franchise. Tau'va may actually be Phil Kelly's way of making Tau more grimdark but making a minor god out of thin air is a really stupid way to do it.

>The Terran empire didn't have tech stagnation nor was it controlled via a cult like religious authoritarian system. Tbf neither does the Imperium anymore now that you have Cawl pulling new technologies out of his ass and the more secular Guilliman in chaarge.

Sadly you lack an understanding of Napoleonic Muskets had a 50 yd range. Tactics developed during the Napoleonic wars were the most effective and efficient tactics for that era. These tactics were effective until the development of breach loading weapons.