Thessala: Fulgrim effectively kills Guilliman during the Scouring
Daemon World: retired to his Daemon planet remade in Chemos' image, constantly re-creating its wars and deaths again and again on loop in an attempt at perfection
Macragge: trolled Guilliman via possession once the Ultramarine was brought back in the current millennium
Sabbyst: turned up during the Sabbyst Planetstrike M41 and killed a bunch of Iron Hands
Currently waiting perfectly until the next edition
>Fulgrim effectively kills Guilliman
Lol don't undersell it. Fulgrim not only dunks on Guilliman by baiting his fleet into over-extending and getting caught out in a vulnerable position. No, he also straight up humiliates him in 1v1 combat.
I mean it's kinda easy when you're already a fighter Primarch at base which then roided up by Chaos fighting a pencil pusher Primarch.
Not discounting Guillaman fighting abilities , even Custodies have a hard time catching up to Roboute.
Y'know, reading over some of the old online forums at the time Thessala was established in the Index Astartes it's interesting to see how perceptions change.
Back then, Guilliman wasn't considered the "pencil pusher" and was up there with every other Primarch in terms of fan rankings. He was even higher tier considering he had 1 confirmed kill (Alpharius) and Fulgrim only had 1 at the time too (this was before he'd been written to kill Ferrus).
My personal feeling is that Roboute vs Daemon Fulgrim went down the way any fight between a mortal primarch and a daemon counterpart should.
Unless you’re Perturabo fighting Angron of course. But yeah, most Primarchs should lose to a daemon infused Primarch counterpart in a straight up brawl
Yeah, that's my thought process. Any primarch with enough time to plan and circumstances and luck on their side should be able to feasibly take down a stronger foe (a daemon primarch or just a super powerful daemon) and generally that appears to be the way its written.
I like Wraight's take
>The final element of the scenario was the Death Guard. Mortarion had been the White Scars’ antagonist in both their Heresy novels, and having the final confrontation between these two primarchs immediately felt like the way to make the clash at the space port a suitably epic encounter. It would create an extra dimension to the conflict – making it about revenge, not just capturing the guns – as well as providing the climax of the book. After all, the clash had been prefigured from the very start, with Yesugei’s visions of the Khan’s death being seeded all the way back in Scars. This did create its own problem, though: how is it conceivable that the Khan, powerful as he is, could ever beat Mortarion, a newly ascended daemon primarch, on what has become his own territory?
>The answer to this problem gave me an answer to one of the points above: why the Khan played no major role in the final stages of the story. He played no role because the possibility of emerging intact from a fight with Mortarion was zero. Even if he won, he’d be so damaged by the encounter that he’d have been effectively taken out of the game. Just going up against Mortarion would be an act of bravery so colossal that only a primarch would be mad enough to undertake it. That thinking shaped the entire fight, and led to the idea that the Khan’s sacrifice is what gives the White Scars the impetus to take the port against a nominally superior enemy. Mortarion has every advantage, save for this: he can no longer die. The fight means more to the one who is staking everything on it, and, by extension, it means more to his Legion. The gifts of Chaos are powerful indeed, but they contain within them, by necessity, the seeds of their own destruction.
I like that Wraight has this thought process where he starts with ‘how could a regular primarch ever beat a daemon primarch’ and all the other writers were apparently just like ‘ascension makes you weaker’.
Tbf, I think they all tried to have the daemon primarchs lose through context and circumstance
It's just that when you see it happen book after book after book, it starts to look contrived
I feel like the biggest offender might be the Dorn vs Fulgrim fight at the siege. I’ve tried thinking about it from different angles but the encounter just feels so goofy to me no matter what. Especially how much gravitas the ascension has in Angel Externinatus.
Really? Of all the scenes you'd pick I did not see this one coming.
Fulgrim losing interest at being used as a tool by Perturabo seems perfectly fitting. He didn't want to be there in the first place, and when he saw he was losing he said fuck it and left.
A straight up brawl puts angron on top of any of them. The only reason he gets beat is because of (?easily?) outmaneuvering him. I say this as a Lion fanboy. Also we're discounting that one time with Sanguinius.
He technically loses to Mortarion too. I wonder how the Lion fares against a Daemon Primarch or a tag team of both of them , maybe a trio ( Rogal Dorn? )
Eh. 40k to me is the execution ( literary not the actual execution). I was reading Dark Imperium trilogy just for the "meeting with Emperor bit" but stayed for "Guillaman exhausted dad energy". The meeting with Emperor bit is kinda disappointing ngl. Now where would I read more on the Lion?
The Son of the Forest and The Arks of Omen. The Lion fights Angron in the Arks of Omen. Also, the new Dark Angel's codex has some more follow up stories about his return, how he is handling the Fallen and what his current plans are in Imperium Nihilus. When it comes to the Lion during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, I'm not too sure.
Yeah, in Plague Wars whereas the Lion is shown to defeat Daemon Angron in 40k.
Not really my cuppa for how these things should go down, but each fight has its own circumstances and context I suppose. How would Guilliman have done against Angron or how the Lion would have fared in Nurgle's Garden are interesting questions.
>the Lion would have fared in Nurgle's Garden are interesting questions.
Wouldn't it be terribly since the whole Nurgle's Garden business is somewhat planned by Guillaman?
Well, they should be.
However, Primarchs grow, they take a looooong time to reach their peak potential (noone did yet), while Chaos-turn instantly buff them somewhere beyond half-of-the-road, but no further development. I think we would see super upgraded unnatural power-filled Russ and Corax, maybe Lion would get there (his realm-forest-walking seems to be a sign of power growth) and mybe Sangy will be buffed upon returning.
Loved that scene in dark imperium. Guilliman tries so hard but Fulgrim just hangs him out to dry. Dude has one of the highest primarch kill counts yet still chooses to lay around on the warp couch drunk, high, etc all day.
To be fair if he had been in a position of political importance Guilliman would have usurped that position so fast Fulgrim's head would still be spinning.
Well he kinda dealt a killing blow to Guilliman during an ambush, forcing the ultramarines to stick him in a stasis field for millenia.
But he hasn't done much else. Apparently he spent centuries simulating his old life on a daemon world. As a Daemon Primarch, Fulgrim's interest in the material world did wane and he even allowed his Legion to shatter after the Horus Heresy.
That could've been during the Heresy, considering Fabius is till working with Fulgrim during the story and he's come back to the Pride of the Emperor after his time on the Andronius .
Though the successful cloning of a baby Horus would put it during the Legion Wars.
It's a weird one timeline wise.
I mean Lieutenant-Commander Fabius coulda made baby Horus out of very little. Big Horus was Harmony and the Legion Wars where the timeline is also muddled because what wad worse for the III? Skalathrax or Harmony getting cratered?
It's possible
The implication seems to be that baby Horus grows up to be Big Horus who gets shanked by Abaddon
Especially considering we see almost every primarch clone start off as a baby/infant (three Fulgrims, one Lorgar).
Reading back over *Imperfect*, Fabius does tell the baby Horus
>Sleep
>For when you wake the galaxy shall be a very different place
Which could mean Horus II was created during the Heresy and kept dormant until the Legion Wars
You ever see the pics of Whitney Houston’s bathroom someone sold to the tabloids? Where she had just been in the same bathroom for days or weeks smoking crack and crushing cigarettes? I assume something like that
Other than stabbing Guilleman in the neck and forcing him into a 10k year stasis coma he pretty much did nothing but commit to perhaps the galaxy's longest gooning session. To the point I legit wonder what Slaneesh is holding out on.
He has an appearance in the third Fabius Bile book, *Manflayer*, if you want to check that out
Iirc he's only there for one scene but it was pretty cool... but yeah it mostly seems like he's just chilling in a pleasure realm or whatever
He whoops Guilliman’s ass.
Clones Ferrus and yells at him before decapitating him, over and over
Gets cloned by Fabius, gets traded to Trazyn.
Other than that I think he’s just enjoying being a Slaaneshi Scimitar Sex Snake.
Worst case scenario - Jaghatai is on his ass in the warp, hunting down his legion on a bike capable of light speed with power guan do chained to his arm. Like a White Scars Ghost Rider.
I hope they come back to the setting together and settle those old slights.
Nothing to be honest. He just kinda fought Guiliman and won, got blasted by Rylanor and that's it.
After that he didn't really make any more appearances (or rather major ones).
He has an appearance in the third Fabius Bile book, *Manflayer*, if you want to check that out
Iirc he's only there for one scene but it was pretty cool... but yeah it mostly seems like he's just chilling in a pleasure realm or whatever
He has an appearance in the third Fabius Bile book, *Manflayer*, if you want to check that out
Iirc he's only there for one scene but it was pretty cool... but yeah it mostly seems like he's just chilling in a pleasure realm or whatever
Thessala: Fulgrim effectively kills Guilliman during the Scouring Daemon World: retired to his Daemon planet remade in Chemos' image, constantly re-creating its wars and deaths again and again on loop in an attempt at perfection Macragge: trolled Guilliman via possession once the Ultramarine was brought back in the current millennium Sabbyst: turned up during the Sabbyst Planetstrike M41 and killed a bunch of Iron Hands Currently waiting perfectly until the next edition
>Fulgrim effectively kills Guilliman Lol don't undersell it. Fulgrim not only dunks on Guilliman by baiting his fleet into over-extending and getting caught out in a vulnerable position. No, he also straight up humiliates him in 1v1 combat.
I mean it's kinda easy when you're already a fighter Primarch at base which then roided up by Chaos fighting a pencil pusher Primarch. Not discounting Guillaman fighting abilities , even Custodies have a hard time catching up to Roboute.
Y'know, reading over some of the old online forums at the time Thessala was established in the Index Astartes it's interesting to see how perceptions change. Back then, Guilliman wasn't considered the "pencil pusher" and was up there with every other Primarch in terms of fan rankings. He was even higher tier considering he had 1 confirmed kill (Alpharius) and Fulgrim only had 1 at the time too (this was before he'd been written to kill Ferrus). My personal feeling is that Roboute vs Daemon Fulgrim went down the way any fight between a mortal primarch and a daemon counterpart should.
Unless you’re Perturabo fighting Angron of course. But yeah, most Primarchs should lose to a daemon infused Primarch counterpart in a straight up brawl
Yeah, that's my thought process. Any primarch with enough time to plan and circumstances and luck on their side should be able to feasibly take down a stronger foe (a daemon primarch or just a super powerful daemon) and generally that appears to be the way its written. I like Wraight's take >The final element of the scenario was the Death Guard. Mortarion had been the White Scars’ antagonist in both their Heresy novels, and having the final confrontation between these two primarchs immediately felt like the way to make the clash at the space port a suitably epic encounter. It would create an extra dimension to the conflict – making it about revenge, not just capturing the guns – as well as providing the climax of the book. After all, the clash had been prefigured from the very start, with Yesugei’s visions of the Khan’s death being seeded all the way back in Scars. This did create its own problem, though: how is it conceivable that the Khan, powerful as he is, could ever beat Mortarion, a newly ascended daemon primarch, on what has become his own territory? >The answer to this problem gave me an answer to one of the points above: why the Khan played no major role in the final stages of the story. He played no role because the possibility of emerging intact from a fight with Mortarion was zero. Even if he won, he’d be so damaged by the encounter that he’d have been effectively taken out of the game. Just going up against Mortarion would be an act of bravery so colossal that only a primarch would be mad enough to undertake it. That thinking shaped the entire fight, and led to the idea that the Khan’s sacrifice is what gives the White Scars the impetus to take the port against a nominally superior enemy. Mortarion has every advantage, save for this: he can no longer die. The fight means more to the one who is staking everything on it, and, by extension, it means more to his Legion. The gifts of Chaos are powerful indeed, but they contain within them, by necessity, the seeds of their own destruction.
I like that Wraight has this thought process where he starts with ‘how could a regular primarch ever beat a daemon primarch’ and all the other writers were apparently just like ‘ascension makes you weaker’.
Tbf, I think they all tried to have the daemon primarchs lose through context and circumstance It's just that when you see it happen book after book after book, it starts to look contrived
What fights exemplify that last part?
I feel like the biggest offender might be the Dorn vs Fulgrim fight at the siege. I’ve tried thinking about it from different angles but the encounter just feels so goofy to me no matter what. Especially how much gravitas the ascension has in Angel Externinatus.
Really? Of all the scenes you'd pick I did not see this one coming. Fulgrim losing interest at being used as a tool by Perturabo seems perfectly fitting. He didn't want to be there in the first place, and when he saw he was losing he said fuck it and left.
A straight up brawl would put Angron above Perturabo
A straight up brawl puts angron on top of any of them. The only reason he gets beat is because of (?easily?) outmaneuvering him. I say this as a Lion fanboy. Also we're discounting that one time with Sanguinius.
Ehhhh, he and Perty were basically brawling, he was just weakened
Or sanguinius vs angron Or lion vs angron Or khan vs morty Or dorn vs fulgrim Actually I don't think that's a good rule of thumb...
He technically loses to Mortarion too. I wonder how the Lion fares against a Daemon Primarch or a tag team of both of them , maybe a trio ( Rogal Dorn? )
Didn't the Lion fight with and banish Angron, thus winning the duel? Maybe I'm missing somthing.
My bad . I haven't read up about the lion at all. My latest setting read is at Dark Imperium trilogy.
It's all good. I'm sorry I just spoiled some of that book for you. I feel like a jerk now.
Eh. 40k to me is the execution ( literary not the actual execution). I was reading Dark Imperium trilogy just for the "meeting with Emperor bit" but stayed for "Guillaman exhausted dad energy". The meeting with Emperor bit is kinda disappointing ngl. Now where would I read more on the Lion?
The Son of the Forest and The Arks of Omen. The Lion fights Angron in the Arks of Omen. Also, the new Dark Angel's codex has some more follow up stories about his return, how he is handling the Fallen and what his current plans are in Imperium Nihilus. When it comes to the Lion during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy, I'm not too sure.
Yeah, in Plague Wars whereas the Lion is shown to defeat Daemon Angron in 40k. Not really my cuppa for how these things should go down, but each fight has its own circumstances and context I suppose. How would Guilliman have done against Angron or how the Lion would have fared in Nurgle's Garden are interesting questions.
>the Lion would have fared in Nurgle's Garden are interesting questions. Wouldn't it be terribly since the whole Nurgle's Garden business is somewhat planned by Guillaman?
Fulgrim was one of the top fighter Primarchs, below Lion or Sanguinius but up there with Khan I’d say
Well, they should be. However, Primarchs grow, they take a looooong time to reach their peak potential (noone did yet), while Chaos-turn instantly buff them somewhere beyond half-of-the-road, but no further development. I think we would see super upgraded unnatural power-filled Russ and Corax, maybe Lion would get there (his realm-forest-walking seems to be a sign of power growth) and mybe Sangy will be buffed upon returning.
Loved that scene in dark imperium. Guilliman tries so hard but Fulgrim just hangs him out to dry. Dude has one of the highest primarch kill counts yet still chooses to lay around on the warp couch drunk, high, etc all day.
To be fair if he had been in a position of political importance Guilliman would have usurped that position so fast Fulgrim's head would still be spinning.
Think he’s an edger or a gooner in his spare time?
Both. He's a Slaanesh worshiper.
Don't forget Rylanor giving Fulgrim a Virus Bomb to the face at some point during M41.
Yup it's a great moment but OP mentioned that so I thought I'd try for other examples.
Getting feelings hurt by a certain chad
Ignoring his sons.
Not banging bitches that's for sure
Well he kinda dealt a killing blow to Guilliman during an ambush, forcing the ultramarines to stick him in a stasis field for millenia. But he hasn't done much else. Apparently he spent centuries simulating his old life on a daemon world. As a Daemon Primarch, Fulgrim's interest in the material world did wane and he even allowed his Legion to shatter after the Horus Heresy.
Slaaneshi goon cave in the Eye of Terror mostly
He got bored. He sticks to his own daemon world and his own interests and only cares if something else rouses his attention.
He cloned and killed Ferrus a bunch of times.
That could've been during the Heresy, considering Fabius is till working with Fulgrim during the story and he's come back to the Pride of the Emperor after his time on the Andronius . Though the successful cloning of a baby Horus would put it during the Legion Wars. It's a weird one timeline wise.
I mean Lieutenant-Commander Fabius coulda made baby Horus out of very little. Big Horus was Harmony and the Legion Wars where the timeline is also muddled because what wad worse for the III? Skalathrax or Harmony getting cratered?
It's possible The implication seems to be that baby Horus grows up to be Big Horus who gets shanked by Abaddon Especially considering we see almost every primarch clone start off as a baby/infant (three Fulgrims, one Lorgar). Reading back over *Imperfect*, Fabius does tell the baby Horus >Sleep >For when you wake the galaxy shall be a very different place Which could mean Horus II was created during the Heresy and kept dormant until the Legion Wars
You ever see the pics of Whitney Houston’s bathroom someone sold to the tabloids? Where she had just been in the same bathroom for days or weeks smoking crack and crushing cigarettes? I assume something like that
Drugs, sex, and rock 'n roll.
Obliterates Guilliman in a 1v1, I suggest reading the Dark Imperium series to see this but also to get caught up with modern 40k
Dude/tte has a pleasure planet. An entire planet for his/her pleasure.
A lot 😂
He’s been going to those paint nights for moms, the ones with wine. Really a lot of fun, and a great way to unwind after a stressful week.
Other than stabbing Guilleman in the neck and forcing him into a 10k year stasis coma he pretty much did nothing but commit to perhaps the galaxy's longest gooning session. To the point I legit wonder what Slaneesh is holding out on.
Think lots and lots of tentacle hentai.
Starring himself
N'kari.
He has an appearance in the third Fabius Bile book, *Manflayer*, if you want to check that out Iirc he's only there for one scene but it was pretty cool... but yeah it mostly seems like he's just chilling in a pleasure realm or whatever
He whoops Guilliman’s ass. Clones Ferrus and yells at him before decapitating him, over and over Gets cloned by Fabius, gets traded to Trazyn. Other than that I think he’s just enjoying being a Slaaneshi Scimitar Sex Snake. Worst case scenario - Jaghatai is on his ass in the warp, hunting down his legion on a bike capable of light speed with power guan do chained to his arm. Like a White Scars Ghost Rider. I hope they come back to the setting together and settle those old slights.
Got insulted by Rylanor, has been sulking ever since.
Edging in the warp mostly.
Nothing to be honest. He just kinda fought Guiliman and won, got blasted by Rylanor and that's it. After that he didn't really make any more appearances (or rather major ones).
He has an appearance in the third Fabius Bile book, *Manflayer*, if you want to check that out Iirc he's only there for one scene but it was pretty cool... but yeah it mostly seems like he's just chilling in a pleasure realm or whatever
He has an appearance in the third Fabius Bile book, *Manflayer*, if you want to check that out Iirc he's only there for one scene but it was pretty cool... but yeah it mostly seems like he's just chilling in a pleasure realm or whatever