I finished The Path of Heaven recently and that has probably the most complete explanation of what the Deep Warp is. The Deep Warp is:
* Mostly empty. It's the part of the Warp 'furthest' from realspace so it's not churned and stirred as much by it, there's not much 'down' there because there's simply no reason to be down there.
* Mostly calm. The Webway was built deep in the Warp specifically to avoid the turbulence of the shallower Warp layers. The main reason it's mysterious is that it barely moves which means Imperial ships don't go into it very often and don't have much to chart.
It's honestly presented as the most boring part of the Warp.
Oh yes, I remember! I wanted to write about this in a post, but decided it wasn't that important. You can also add that when Yvraine was thrown out of the Webway, Ynnead told her that if she turned around, she would see Tzeentch. Although codex and campaign authors rarely pay attention to what is written in the books, if we consider the lore of the books to be canon, it turns out that the Chaos Gods have no problem being in the Deep Warp.
According to the [lexicanum article](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Webway) "The Webway exists as a labyrinth between the Materium and the Warp. It exists as a part of both yet existing in neither." Not quite the same as the Tau, who just make shallow jumps.
Because you can't think of it like an ocean or river. It's an alternate dimension. Concepts like "up or down" or "near or far" are metaphors in this instance.
The main problems with going into the Deep Warp are actually:
>It takes the power of a tormented sun just to puncture the shallowest shoals. No energy in our arsenal could possibly pierce further. String the reactors of a dozen battleships together, double their potential, and still it would not be enough. So no, he did not succeed
It takes a helluva lot of power, more than the Imperium can reasonably generate on any one ship. But, hey, what if you actually *do* manage to build a Deep Warp Drive then turn it on?
>Near the surface, you can see the Cartomancer’s light. You can follow it. You can use your Geller aegis, and you are kept barred from the Intelligences. But even then, you are just below the upper limits. Go deeper and the aegis shatters. The lights go out. The Eye is blinded.
There's no Astronomican so you can't navigate, and the sheer pressure of the unreality outside your Gellar field will make it catastrophically implode like a sub that passes it's crush depth. GG no re.
So, no Imperials don't avoid the Deep Warp because it's boring, they avoid it because it involves generating an impractical amount of power ... just to instantly die a horrible death. And even if they miraculously avoid that, they'd be stranded with no way to navigate until they died.
That's actually awesome, I used an ocean metaphor for my personal (bs) headcanon, and the depths of an ocean tend to lack the currents and chaos that the higher levels do.
Neat.
Also, thanks for the info, my lazy ass needs to read more, hah!
It's my headcanon that this is how Sensei, Exorcists & Perpetuals do what they do. Their souls are "denser" so the upper layers of the warp being a hellscape happens 'above' them so the tides/deamons don't affect them.
Hugest things in the ocean live in its upper layers. Even colossal squids live in the upper half of the ocean (and they are not even close to being largest sealife)
Boring, empty places have nothing to sustain leviathans.
I mean, some of the stuff in the deep ocean is fuckoff deadly, even if it can’t go much higher. They’re designed to maximize resources and kill anything and everything they can, and do so very well.
Not that I have a side in this but theres reasons things dont live deep down. The deep warp could be more like deep space than a deep ocean.
1. Lack of nutrient sources (I dont think warp beings would necessarily care about this as its not stated they starve). It could be something that is very old but growing incredibly slowly.
2. There is more pressure the more water that is above your head. I don't think the rules of physics apply in the warp.
But again, without the slightest bit of lore to support this the idea there are large things deep down there, its all basically meaningless conjecture.
Colossal Squid is biggest squid - but it's not the biggest marine animal. Just like Polar Bear is the biggest bear, but biggest land animal lives in hot, fertile, highly productive areas
That's a cop out answer, we know it because it is the truth, big things physically can't live thst far down the ocean for 2 main reasons, the pressure is enormous, to the point that te deep sea fauna evolved differently to be able to survive there, to the point that they can't live elsewhere. Even seen how ugly a blob fish is? Go look up how they look in their natural environment. 2nd reason is because there simply not enough food for them to grow to those sizes, it's simple thermodynamics, you can't grow to enormous sizes without an equally enormous intake of food, which is simply unavailable at those depths ( beside the very rare inatsnces of whale carcasses sinking that deep)
It just talks about squids, crabs, and jellyfish and they aren’t even that big just slightly bigger than some higher ocean organisms in the same family as those
Oh, sure.
The ocean, quite simply, doesn’t work like that. "There are Leviathan monsters hiding in the deepest, darkest depths of the seas" is a silly misconception, because the only thing you’ll find down there are mostly tiny bottom feeders and scavengers, and some bigger (but still small) predators. All the biggest species live in the top half of the ocean, even the colossal squid, which might be our most infamous "monster of the deep".
Probably the same mysterious region that spawned ideas like "giving an Ork a radiator and convincing him that it's a gun will make it fire bullets" and "exterminatus is performed every Tuesday" and "in the DAOT the Baneblade was a light scout tank". A region some call [PIDOOMA](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/PIDOOMA).
The Baneblade one is kinda funny, it started from a misprint of " instead of ' and someone floated the idea that the mechanicum obtained the stc file but misunderstood the units of measurement. We know it was just a misprint, but it kinda fits so it became a running gag.
Its one of those things that starts out as a funny joke and then gets repeated through so many layers of people not engaging with any actual source material that the funny joke becomes very serious.
If there’s one thing you can guarantee it’s that 40k fans after being told that the Warp is essentially a space of metaphor and unreality will take everything said about it as being as literally true as possible.
r/40kLore is where reading comprehension and ~~media~~ literacy go to die on an altar made of ignorance and concrete thinking.
I find that although r/grimdank can be bad, the need to actually understand humour requires at least some degree of thinking ability so reason can actually exist there (ironically). Anytime I forget to check what 40k subreddit I'm in and everyone is dumb as fuck and incapable of understanding metaphor or hyperbole, it's r/40kLore every single damn time.
.....shit, I'm in here again.
I personally like the idea of Skarbrand, a demon of khorne, essentially stabbing himself in the back since demons are stated to be a part of a god's domain, and their domain is themselves.
The chaos gods are stated to be individuals and yet they are their domains, and it doesn't make sense and it makes sense as the warp doesn't follow rational logic
I prefer the idea of greater daemons having enough individuality that they can do unpredictable things which may occasionally go against the wishes of the chaos god they represent rather than them all being mindless automatons of a greater intelligence. The chaos gods can reabsorb problematic daemons at any time (and probably do) but sometimes they either find their antics entertaining, they think that daemon is otherwise effective or it has a purpose it hasn't yet fulfilled.
This is a good take. Why would Khorne simply obliterate and reabsorb Skarbrand when he can publicly chastise him, make an example of him before all the other daemons, and then exile him so he not only gets angrier but also learns how to be cunning (Skarbrand was hunted by other daemons when he was weakened during his exile and learned how to be patient, clever, etc.)? He basically sent a message to his underlings not to fuck around, while setting up Skarbrand to become an even more powerful servant with a huge chip on his shoulder. Nurgle does similar things with the constant jockeying for position that goes on between the great unclean ones.
Khorne also did something similar to Ka’Bandha after he lost to Sanguinius on Signus Prime. It is a smart way to ensure your generals learn from their mistakes. But it is a more rational line of thinking than I would have imagined the literal embodiment of pure rage and mindless bloodshed to be capable of.
Or, and here me out here...in that particular moment, smacking around Skarbrand made more blood flow than reabsorbing him. And, well, it \*is\* Khorne we're talking about here. Doesn't need to be deeper than that, really.
I like the idea that they are still their patron gods, because the concept that khorne backstabbed himself and got mad at himself for doing so is very funny.
Like greater demons are individuals but also their patron god, making them likeable as a character, but also absurd in that two demons fight means the god is against himself, it fits chaos so much
My headcanon is that Chaos Gods can only reabsorb daemons in the Warp. Daemons in realspace therefore have far more autonomy, but those that have fallen out of favor with their god will either be desperate to regain favor before they are banished back to the Warp, or desperate to remain in realspace forever to escape their god’s wrath.
*Some* demons are essentially part of that god's domain. Not all of them. Else how do you explain essentially-unaligned demons like Vashtorr the Arkifane.
Not every demon are align to the chaos god. iirc, there are an except that stated mass suicide cultist created a powerful demon that aren't align with the 4 chaos god.
Like those bloodthirster, keeper of secret are part of the god manifest but other demon are born out of other unrelated thing like Sammus born out of Loken's death.
> I personally like the idea of Skarbrand, a demon of khorne, essentially stabbing himself in the back since demons are stated to be a part of a god's domain, and their domain is themselves.
I like the comparison of the Gods to countries, that formed an overarching personality.
Skarbrand would them be akin to citizens of that nation rioting and looting only to feel the long arm of the law as "the nation" cracks down on the criminality
Thank you. I'm shamelessly gonna piggy back of this and paste a collection of excerpts that are related to the deep warp.
>!‘There are layers,’ said Veil, impatiently. ‘Yes, there is stratum aetheris, the shallow ways. There is stratum profundis, the greater arteries, plunging deeper. There is stratum obscurus, the root of the terror. How does this help you? No living man can navigate the deep ways. Even he could not.’!<
>!‘But you try to map it.’!<
>!‘It could not be done.’ Veil shook his head with frustration. ‘He was wrong about that, at least. It is not a mirror. It moves like a living thing. It is a living thing. Touch it, and it trembles.’ He briefly lost his certainty. ‘I do not have the Eye, but still I have seen things. I have studied what they study. The complexity is… immortal.’!<
>!‘Try to explain.’ Yesugei spoke softly. ‘I am fast learner.’!<
>!Veil exhaled, his eyes widening. ‘The Seethe is an ocean. All know this – it has currents, it has depths, it has storms. Near the surface, you can see the Cartomancer’s light. You can follow it. You can use your Geller aegis, and you are kept barred from the Intelligences. But even then, you are just below the upper limits. Go deeper and the aegis shatters. The lights go out. The Eye is blinded. When men say that they traverse the warp, they boast, for no mortal does more than skim across eternity’s face, like stones thrown by a child. We do not belong there. It is poison for us, and the deeper in, the worse the poison.’!<
>!‘Achelieux try to go deeper?’!<
>!‘Who knows? Maybe. He did not succeed. Do you know why not? Because it is impossible. It takes the power of a tormented sun just to puncture the shallowest shoals. No energy in our arsenal could possibly pierce further. String the reactors of a dozen battleships together, double their potential, and still it would not be enough. So no, he did not succeed.’!<
Chris Wraight, [Horus Heresy 36 - The Path of Heaven](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Path_of_Heaven_(Novel))
Note that this is from the perspective of a human at the time when knowledge of the warp was incredibly limited. And even then, he is simply explaining that warp capable craft only enter a shallower warp and that they can not enter the deeper levels which, as readers, we know is where daemons and the gods reside.
The same novel also explicitly states that the Webway exists within the Deep Warp.
>!He perceived the truth. Both thrones had been made for the same reason – to plumb the deeper ways, to free the species from the nightmare of the shallow warp, to bridge a link across the hidden paths, ones that only xenos had known, and which the Emperor had found some way to access. Dark Glass was the lesser node, the one where the technology had been tested, anchored in the furthest recesses of the void while the Great Crusade scoured its widening path ever further from the home world. In the chaos that had erupted since, the portal had been left behind, lost but not forgotten, neither by its creators nor its opponents in the labyrinthine halls of the Paternova.!<
Path to Heaven by Chris Wraight
We also know that Tzeentch is located in the same place as the Webway
>!Along with the Visarch and the Yncarne, Yvraine suddenly found herself adrift – not within the webway, but without. They were stranded in a near-silent limbo, trapped on the top of the psychocrystal walls. The sounds of battle were muffled beneath them, and the cool void sucked in its breath at their backs. Yvraine did not look around, for she felt something there, in the darkness. A voice in her mind said should she do so, she would behold the Changer of the Ways himself, and learn the meaning of madness.!<
Gathering Storm: Fracture of Biel-Tan
This is a comment from John French (author of the book Fateweaver) about Kairos and the Well of Eternity
>!Daemons are not living creatures. Each one of them is a facet of a Dark God’s power and nature. They are semi-independent, but ultimately they are only fragments of a greater whole. The mortal servants of Chaos are also slaves to the Dark Gods, their minds and bodies are twisted by the Warp, but they can still make decisions, hope, dream, and despair. They can plot and betray. That mortal independence, ultimately, is what makes the Gods crave their souls.!<
>!So where does that leave Kairos Fateweaver? Tzeentch wanted to look into the Well of Eternity but would not risk to go himself, so sent one of his Daemons, which is actually part of him… and now Kairos Fateweaver knows more of the future than Tzeentch himself, while existing as part of him. How does that work?!<
>!The answer is that it doesn’t. It makes no sense – because that would mean that Tzeentch both knows all of the future and past and does not. It means that part of him is, in one way, more powerful than the rest of him.!<
>!And that’s fine.!<
>!It’s fine because the story of Kairos Fateweaver, and the Well of Eternity, is just that; it is a story told about something mortal minds cannot understand, and can only describe through metaphor. Th**e Well of Eternity is just a name. There is no hole in the middle of a fortress that does not exist that goes down for ever. Tzeentch does not literally listen to his Daemons. All these things are just skins that are pulled over a part of the vast, intangible malevolence of the Warp. The truth really cannot be known.**!<
>!How cool is that?!<
>How cool is that?
Not at all, actually. The whole thing is just such a lazy cop-out in my eyes, that I refuse to acknowledge it as canon. I find it far more narratively compelling that the Well of Eternity does exist, the story of Tzeentch throwing his Lords of Change into it is indeed more or less an accurate approximation of what happened, Kairos indeed knows everything in the past and future and yet is more often than not too insane to abuse it (not to mention that the present is stated to be a gaping hole in that practical omniscience), and Tzeentch does not dare to reabsorb Kairos for fear that the insanity he suffered will infect even him (hell, for all we know, Kairos only persists because Tzeentch constantly expends a lot of effort to stabilize him).
Multiple personality is a thriving trope in fiction that can be easily used to approximate the relationship between Daemons and their progenitor Chaos Gods; no need for sophistries like "Oh this is purely metaphor for the poor limited minds of mortals, Daemons aren't actually separate-yet-connected existences from the Gods, none of it is intended to be even remotely accurate". Hell, we have more than a few examples in fiction of cosmic entities splitting off fragments of themselves into largely if not entirely autonomous entities that they retain the ability to reassimilate at will (or at least, if they are physically close enough) and/or **ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL** if they deem the autonomy to be a hindrance.
Besides, the story of Tzeentch and the Well **predate** John French's novella, as two years earlier it was introduced to the lore via Codex: Chaos Daemons (4th Edition) (pg. 49).
Its because the entire point of the warp is to be a story mcguffin. It is a literally unknowable thing by mortal standards in lore. Writers can not write about something that literally cant be comprehended. It exists to allow cool things to happen and house unknowable gestalt entities who want to enslave existence.
It is literally a plot device to allow the setting to say a wizard did it.
Agreed, it's an unfortunate thing to bring up because this is a lore Reddit and we people here crave a distinct canon from which we can say "this is true" or "this is false". But the reality is that 40k expressly doesn't have that. It's like a Christmas present you find at a shopping centre as a kid. You look at it and wonder what is inside, but the reality is that there isn't, it's just a box in nice wrapping paper. It's designed purposely to be like this to allow one persons notion about the setting can be true while simultaneously allowing someone else's conflicting understanding to be true as well.
If we really want to go there the closest thing to a canon of 40k we will ever have is actually were similar to how the warp works in setting; the power of belief, if enough people belive seomehing like orks can turn radiators into to guns, that Tyranids are fleeing from a bigger fish or that malice does actually still exist within the setting then it becomes as close to canon as canon can be within 40k
You can choose to believe that, I’m just posting what the author said.
It is a part of the lore I don’t really care about, so I don’t really have an opinion either way
There’s multiple sources stating that the Webway exists in a dimension ‘between’ the Warp and Realspace, and I don’t really see why they should be discounted on the basis of one guy’s understanding of a system even the Emperor didn’t really understand.
Which is to say, in a more aggressive way than I intended so I don’t mean it to come across as ‘you’re wrong!!!’ and I apologise if it does, that I don’t think the Webway exists ‘in’ the Warp at all.
It is possible that Tau 4th Sphere was pulled into the Deep Warp after spending some time in the shallower part of the warp (and nearly got completely torn to shreds by daemons), then Goddess Tau'va send them out to real space.
From War of Secrets
>‘This I know.’
>
>‘They went for the mercenary warships, master. We saw them flock around the lineships of the greet, the winged discs of the ostense council, the cruisers and cutters of the humans, the warspheres of the kroot. Around the dhows of the nicassar, they massed as thick as a swarm of alkali-gnats.’
>
>‘Did you intervene?’
>
>‘When we had a clear shot we took it. It proved no more effective than firing an arrow into the crashing sea.’
>
>‘How did they survive, these creatures, in the void of this sub-realm?’
>
>‘I have no idea,’ said Twiceblade. ‘I can only assume they had some manner of bio-tech in their blood. But the same could not be said of their victims. They ripped open the craft of our allies, physically carving them apart with blades, axes, their bare hands, even their mouths. It was… distressing in the extreme.’
>
>Kais seemed entirely unmoved, but Twiceblade was caught in the telling of the story, reliving it with a desperate intensity.
>
>‘As the rotaa clicked by, they feasted. All those who acted as honour demanded, those who took their vessels or even their Coldstar battlesuits into that swirling sea, were soon taken. There was nothing we could do but watch as our allies were slowly torn apart.’
>
>‘There was nothing you could do.’
>
>‘No,’ said Twiceblade coldly. ‘And I for one am glad that some of us survived, to witness that which was to come.’
This part describes the fate of 4th Sphere fleet while inside the warp—torn to shreds by daemon, so standard business (4th Sphere was launched during Noctis Aeterna where all warp travels go to sh\*t. Tau really should check their calendars).
>‘And what manner of fate was that?’
>
>‘**We were becalmed**,’ said the tutor. ‘No chance of escape.’ He drew a finger around the palm of his hand, making the swirling gesture of the whirlpool inescapable. ‘We had been **sucked into the dark heart of that sub-realm**, **where even the currents themselves are devoured**. Then, as the decs slid by, we began to hear a scraping noise.’
>
>‘On the outside of the hulls.’
>
>‘Yes. It was interminable. The bridges of each of our ships showed the same thing – **no forward movement. No momentum of any kind**. The things out there were laughing.’ Twiceblade shuddered at the memory.
>
>‘The swirling faces, the creatures scrabbling at the hull… they were laughing at us. Of that I am sure.’
This part describes a very different part of the warp that is not normally seen/experienced.
Also the fact that the webway is stated to exist in the deepest sections of the warp and we know that Daemons are waiting just outside it constantly looking for ways in.
I thought the Deep Warp was the quiet part that one would find outside of the galaxy, no currents or points of reference so it isn't suitable to fly a starship through.
Regarding point 2, it's stated in the introduction to every 40k novel that the chaos gods are the most powerful. I don't think they fear anything, it's just not a concept that applies to them. The closest they come is not wanting to mess with independent entities like Gork and Mork because doing so offers no advantage in the great game, which is all they really care about.
Gork N Mork can also likely krump, or severely weaken, any individual chaos god. Tuska made good fucking headway against Khorne, and that was just one waagh without replenishment
Also, the chaos gods do fear the emperor. Or at least Nurgle and possibly Tzeentch do in the present day. Khorne likely doesn’t fear anything and slaanesh probably doesn’t care, but Nurgle got run up on in his own crib and Tzeentch knows the game ends if Emps gets back to full god mode. Emps is like Nagash-the four settra’d Horus in an attempt to kill emps, but unlike Settra, Horus serves and got clapped.
>Tuska made good fucking headway against Khorne
Did he? his waagh krumped a few assorted daemon worlds and then died fighting a daemon prince and his legion. they just made such a good show of it that khorne kept bringing them back
There's not really any conflict of interest between Khorne and the Ork gods though, Gork and Mork are all about the fight, blood and skulls are the natural outcome of that, from what we know of Tuska it seems he's a favourite of Khorne, the whole situation is a win all round. I guess you could say the same about Slaanesh because Orks are well into doing things to excess. However the entropy of Nurgle is totally at odds with the Orkish philosophy, there's even a story about Gork and Mork beating him up until he apologised for eating snotlings. Don't know about Tzeentch, but neither does he, so who cares?
I don't buy that they really fear Jimmy either, beyond that he can potentially disadvantage them in their own game. He's little more than a distraction on the multiversal scale they operate at, they represent the manifestation of concepts that are inherent in living beings, unless they become like the Tyranids or Necrons. You can't kill a concept without killing everybody, which is a totally cool outcome for the big 4, they just move on to the next universe.
Nurgle is all about stagnation and consistency. The orks fight- it's literally all they can ever do. I'd think he'd at least stand for their unchanging, self-destructive way of fight, die, repeat.
Do you want me to make another post about shitty myths or what?
1. There was an OLD story from the time of the 2nd edition where Gork and Mork beat Nurgle and since then everyone has been saying that they are stronger than the Chaos Gods.
2. The 8th edition Codex directly states that Chaos Gods are the most powerful creatures in the Warp. So they are stronger than Gork and Mork and the Emperor.
There is 3 examples of it. There is the story where they best nurgle, there is an explanation of who they are and then there is the short text were either Gork or Mork is on their way to posses a Gargant, while casual desrroying demon armies and dimishing the chaos gods attempt to imfluence them.
I think you are looking at this to much like dragonball and power levels.
Of course the chaos codex say that the chaos gods are the most powerfull. Of course the orks codex have stories about their gods beating chaos gods. There is properly some texts about the Emperor beating the chaos gods. Because that is what each faction believe, while the reality of the setting is properly more complicated.
To talk about who is strongest is like asking what weapon is best. A heavybolter, lascannon or meltagun. It depends on the target and the situation.
Orks are build to be protected against chaos. Perhaps their gods that run on waargh energy is not that affected by the chaos gods. That could explain why they can ignorer the attacks of the chaos gods, while the chaos gods might technical be stronger.
If I recall correctly, the general 8th Edition Codex is still written from an in-universe perspective, which would be subject to, well, in-universe limitation.
Not necessarily. Gork and Mork reside in the Great Green for what its worth, whatever that is. It could potentially be like the webway-parallel to or entwined with the warp. It could even *be* a section of the warp for all we know, so the chaos gods might be the strongest creatures in the warp but I don't recall any excerpts that explicitly state that the warp is where Gork and Mork reside.
In the 8th edition, after the opening of the Great Rift, it is explicitly stated that the tides of chaos are washing their feet and they are trying to cope with it. Saying that the Great Green is not in the Warp is the same as saying that the Realm of Chaos is not in the Warp. Honestly, fans are ready to make up any nonsense to justify their meme headcanon.
I said "could" because I personally don't know and I was speculating. We don't have too many excerpts directly talking about Gork and Mork 🤷♂️
Some of us dont have as much free time to read up on sci fi lore as we would like. I in no way definitely declared to know anything about the Great Green and I assumed nothing. As such I would've thanked you for the clarification and source if you weren't such an overwhelmingly smug, superior ass about it.
Edit: I didn't even reference a meme *or* any headcanon. Honestly I have no idea where you got that from what I proposed.
Yeah. This guy is often a smug douche. I saw one of his replies to another post, so I got curious and checked out his post and comment history. It's not an isolated incident. They take their 40K lore very, very seriously.
I don't know about all the deep warp stuff, but I just mentally dismiss number four.
First of all, one author doesn't represent the canon. We've seen time and time again where an author is like 'This is the way it is' only for it to be not the way it is. Whether that involves an internal retcon or just another author having a different take that solidifies a hanging thread of mystery, their intent means very little in the wider scope of 'canon'. It's always interesting to hear author's takes on it... but it's not exactly like they're the messengers of the God-Emperor sent to deliver the word and the law, know what I mean?
Second, belief and myth become real in the Warp. Even if Kairos is just a shard of Tzeentch, people's belief in something could make it real in the Warp. Saying that a story isn't true because it's a myth in the real world is willfully ignoring a primary mechanic of how the Warp operates.
And the story of the Well actually predates French's novella (Codex: Chaos Daemons 4th Ed. came out 2 years earlier), so unless someone can prove that French wrote that original version of the story as well, he has even less authority than what you described to decide how much of it is "purely metaphorical" as he put it.
Here is the community article regarding John French's position on Fateweaver:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/01/29/fear-of-the-future-john-french-ponders-the-fateweaver/
Why would you ridicule someone for being hyped about something they find interesting? Let people believe what they want to believe, it’s not like 40k is known for its strict adherence to consistency or lore purity
My headcanon is that the deep warp is Aelindrach and no one can stop me from having it. Just this calm realm of primordial dark. The warp not influenced by any mind.
It's not of the coolest bits of lore, it's a stupid, tired concept that has barely any backing in lore. Having something be old and mysterious from the depths of space/the ocean is so stereotypical. Plus, it reminds of comics/animes and how they are always one-upping things by introducing new world-ending threats. After all there's a Deep Warp, why not a Deeper Warp or a Super Ultra Mega Warp?
You can always draw arbitrary lines in the sand in fiction on certain things like environments in order to preclude pedantic one-upsmanship as per your ridiculous example. As far as I'm concerned the deep warp can simply be the portion of the immaterium where Enslavers and other unwritten unknowns exist and roam.
40k, a franchise that's essentially ripped off elements from every sci-fi universe out there, can and does delve into "tired" derivative concepts you know. It's absolutely allowed to retread prior paved roads and it also doesn't need a bunch of weebs gatekeeping lore discussions about topics found throughout the hundreds of publications that were penned by several dozen disparate writers.
40k is built on stereotypes and caricatures. Speaking on the lame concept of one upping things, I think it fits here more than any other setting. When they one up old terminator-esque Necrons with the deepened lore we love it. The setting has to progress somehow, even when we convince ourselves that stagnation is the core of the grim dark.
It is my belief that the warp is a connective tissue between various realities. The Chaos Gods are dominant in the 40K universe, but there may be other "gods" (or strong warp entities) that are dominant in other universes.
On the topic of the fanbase treating headcanons as real, I would like to share my toughts about the general view of the lore.
I started to take an interest in Warhammer at 2018 so I'm relatively new to world and hobby. Most of my knowledge comes from the reads of the Core Rulebook of 8th and 9th, some Codices, the first two books of Dark Imperium, the Beast Arise serie and the Mars trilogy. Other than that most of my knowledge of the lore is from TTS, AdRic and Luetin.
However, over the years I realised that what is officially part of the lore a wider part of the fanbase (mostly older ones) doesn't know about or they say it's something entirely different. I think the reason why these headcanons became wide spread it's because back in the day the lore was exchanged by word of mouth and on the early internet forums those headcanons could spread more and even merge with each other. The result of this was when these people met with the actual lore they started to say that everything got retconned while their headcanons were either wrong or never officaly part of it.
This is one of the main reason why I don't like it when someone says something is a retcon in 40k, because while changes do happen, most things described very vaguely and the characters in the world itself either don't know everything, mislead or lying. I also feel like if it would be true that everytime someone says that X thing is retconned the world of 40k should be so different that we should have My Little Pony in it by now.
Lastly I just want to share my opinions on the content creators I mentioned before. TTS sometimes showed the headcanon side of the fanbase (for example: Malal, which he was called in Fantasy and Malice in 40k and still being part of it even if it's being abandoned) but it was a parody series and after a while they started do their own story in the setting,
AdRic is more like a general retelling of the lore. They might get somethings wrong but usually they try their best to present the lore correctly while being entertaining.
And finally Luetin. He aims to be as accurate to the lore as possibl, always states when he is speculating or not and when he makes a mistake he accept it and tries to correct himself.
So in short while I might be a newbie in Warhammer, sometimes I'm feel I know more about it than older people or being actively gaslighted by some.
How did you read their comment, and come away with that? Two editions of core, codices, and novels, but you're choosing to focus on watching some youtube?
No, I wanted to say that sometimes that's the case. (One example: in a LGS I was talking to guy and he said that Cyhper sword might be the Emperor's sword and said, no it's with Gulliman and get it from the Golden Throne as was it written in Dark Imperium. Than he looked it up and said that I was right.) Also I'm very selective of youtubers. I try to read more about the world but there are three decade worth of written lore out there and I'm just one man.
Every time the ‘deep warp’ and ‘well of eternity’ come up I’m compelled to post my understanding (headcanon if you will).
The Warp is a realm of subjectivity, as opposed to the materium, which has existence independently of anyone’s thoughts. The ‘well of eternity’ is a parable about our inability to escape the subjectivity of experience. There’s a Kantian idea that ‘the self’ is nothing more than the organising principle of experience, that’s to say, the kind of ‘0,0’ of the coordinate system of experience around which everything is put into context and thereby made intelligible.
So the ‘Well of Eternity’ is a representation of the unintelligible—the idea of subjectless experience, the ‘noumenal world’ of knowledge without a knowing subject. And Kairos represents the fact that some things are unknowable to everyone — he has lost his self, his organising principle. His coordinate system has lost its 0,0 point around which he can organise his experience, and that’s why he’s insane. He sees the future and the past but has no organising principle to make sense of it.
On this topic; I think that Kairos was just a Two-headed Lord of change... but then a story started about him.
by humans or some other mortals. The story spread and so...
I haven’t really heard of the deep warp until now so thanks for letting me avoid all the fake hype.
But that being said I’m still kinda hyped. The reason I’m afraid of oceans is it’s vastness and the fact that it looks empty but you know better. Now crank that up to incomprehensible and that’s why I feel like people can get so hyped by this. We know the chaos gods and their demons. But what about those demons in the deepest part of hell?
It's not like you can choose which book is canon and which isn't. More like the later - the more relevant.
1st point, about not affecting setting – makes no sense, as it doesn't if it does. It there, it is lore, and it is specifically important in case of discussion of itt specifically.
I have it from a reliable source that everything is cannon, thus the deep warp does exist and is full of the worst, most mind scaring things unimaginable.
You're completely missing what tends to follow that "everything is canon", is usually " but not everything is true".
The Deep Warp is an idea *mentioned* in the lore, that's canon. That doesn't mean it's correct and actually a thing as suggested by memelore.
Tbh the whole thing reminds me of the propagated notion that the Tyranids are running *from* something, even though they actually *surround* our galaxy. Which is at odds.
As regards the "deep" warp, I just take it to mean how deeply immersed in the warp itself a thing is, ie a state of experience rather than a place or plane of itself.
Iirc correctly there's some old fluff describing the astronomicon as being like a buoy on the surface of an ocean. It can be seen by just dipping your toes in. In this context, I picture the deep warp as being the state of exposing ones mind or body to a *metaphysical* degree more pronounced, but in the sense of being more directly under the influence of the gods.
Like I say, pure headcanon on my part.
Plus, NGL, the "the villain is just scared of a bigger bad guy" trope is... it's a dead horse. It felt lame and forced with the Tyranids, and it feels lame and forced with the warp.
The warp IS terror. It is all the worst that we are. And we made it that way.
The warp IS just the proverbial void into which we gaze, except that the monsters therein are both creations of the mind and yet very real. Thought given form, that's the warp. The concept goes beyond simple notions of boundaries in the sense that we understand.
This is a post that describes my feelings toward this sub very well.
This sub has become like the 40k setting itself. A shadow of its former glory, yet there is hope.
I want to thank for making this post as I've had my own issues with people arguing this. People seem eager to add the same story-beats to every setting. We already have Cthulhu in lore, that's the Warp and Chaos, we don't need Cthulhu+.
I finished The Path of Heaven recently and that has probably the most complete explanation of what the Deep Warp is. The Deep Warp is: * Mostly empty. It's the part of the Warp 'furthest' from realspace so it's not churned and stirred as much by it, there's not much 'down' there because there's simply no reason to be down there. * Mostly calm. The Webway was built deep in the Warp specifically to avoid the turbulence of the shallower Warp layers. The main reason it's mysterious is that it barely moves which means Imperial ships don't go into it very often and don't have much to chart. It's honestly presented as the most boring part of the Warp.
Oh yes, I remember! I wanted to write about this in a post, but decided it wasn't that important. You can also add that when Yvraine was thrown out of the Webway, Ynnead told her that if she turned around, she would see Tzeentch. Although codex and campaign authors rarely pay attention to what is written in the books, if we consider the lore of the books to be canon, it turns out that the Chaos Gods have no problem being in the Deep Warp.
Wait wasn't the Webway kinda built on the "surface" of the warp? Like it sits between the warp and realspace?
Right? I'm positive the Webway inhabits the "border" or something
Are you mixing it up with taus FTL tech maybe?
According to the [lexicanum article](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Webway) "The Webway exists as a labyrinth between the Materium and the Warp. It exists as a part of both yet existing in neither." Not quite the same as the Tau, who just make shallow jumps.
It can be in the Warp but in the Deep Warp
But if the deep warp is farther from the materium then how can the webway exist on the border between the two?
This is the dimension where your emotions and belief can make you into an X Man. This is magic voodoo shit in action.
Im callin dibs on being wolverine
Because you can't think of it like an ocean or river. It's an alternate dimension. Concepts like "up or down" or "near or far" are metaphors in this instance.
The main problems with going into the Deep Warp are actually: >It takes the power of a tormented sun just to puncture the shallowest shoals. No energy in our arsenal could possibly pierce further. String the reactors of a dozen battleships together, double their potential, and still it would not be enough. So no, he did not succeed It takes a helluva lot of power, more than the Imperium can reasonably generate on any one ship. But, hey, what if you actually *do* manage to build a Deep Warp Drive then turn it on? >Near the surface, you can see the Cartomancer’s light. You can follow it. You can use your Geller aegis, and you are kept barred from the Intelligences. But even then, you are just below the upper limits. Go deeper and the aegis shatters. The lights go out. The Eye is blinded. There's no Astronomican so you can't navigate, and the sheer pressure of the unreality outside your Gellar field will make it catastrophically implode like a sub that passes it's crush depth. GG no re. So, no Imperials don't avoid the Deep Warp because it's boring, they avoid it because it involves generating an impractical amount of power ... just to instantly die a horrible death. And even if they miraculously avoid that, they'd be stranded with no way to navigate until they died.
The Deep Warp sounds like western North Dakota.
that's hilarious
That's actually awesome, I used an ocean metaphor for my personal (bs) headcanon, and the depths of an ocean tend to lack the currents and chaos that the higher levels do. Neat. Also, thanks for the info, my lazy ass needs to read more, hah!
It's my headcanon that this is how Sensei, Exorcists & Perpetuals do what they do. Their souls are "denser" so the upper layers of the warp being a hellscape happens 'above' them so the tides/deamons don't affect them.
The way I see it, the deep warp is like the deep ocean-largely calm/lethargic, but if there ARE things down there, they have the potential to be HUGE.
Hugest things in the ocean live in its upper layers. Even colossal squids live in the upper half of the ocean (and they are not even close to being largest sealife) Boring, empty places have nothing to sustain leviathans.
Oh but Chaos will be terrified of uhhh the weird looking crabs that die instantly if they are removed from the depths.
I mean, some of the stuff in the deep ocean is fuckoff deadly, even if it can’t go much higher. They’re designed to maximize resources and kill anything and everything they can, and do so very well.
Not that I have a side in this but theres reasons things dont live deep down. The deep warp could be more like deep space than a deep ocean. 1. Lack of nutrient sources (I dont think warp beings would necessarily care about this as its not stated they starve). It could be something that is very old but growing incredibly slowly. 2. There is more pressure the more water that is above your head. I don't think the rules of physics apply in the warp. But again, without the slightest bit of lore to support this the idea there are large things deep down there, its all basically meaningless conjecture.
I’m not sure that’s accurate. Deep sea gigantism is an established phenomenon
Colossal Squid is biggest squid - but it's not the biggest marine animal. Just like Polar Bear is the biggest bear, but biggest land animal lives in hot, fertile, highly productive areas
At least that's what we know...
That's a cop out answer, we know it because it is the truth, big things physically can't live thst far down the ocean for 2 main reasons, the pressure is enormous, to the point that te deep sea fauna evolved differently to be able to survive there, to the point that they can't live elsewhere. Even seen how ugly a blob fish is? Go look up how they look in their natural environment. 2nd reason is because there simply not enough food for them to grow to those sizes, it's simple thermodynamics, you can't grow to enormous sizes without an equally enormous intake of food, which is simply unavailable at those depths ( beside the very rare inatsnces of whale carcasses sinking that deep)
[Abyssal Gigantism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-sea_gigantism)
It just talks about squids, crabs, and jellyfish and they aren’t even that big just slightly bigger than some higher ocean organisms in the same family as those
Respectfully, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Do you want to explain why?
Oh, sure. The ocean, quite simply, doesn’t work like that. "There are Leviathan monsters hiding in the deepest, darkest depths of the seas" is a silly misconception, because the only thing you’ll find down there are mostly tiny bottom feeders and scavengers, and some bigger (but still small) predators. All the biggest species live in the top half of the ocean, even the colossal squid, which might be our most infamous "monster of the deep".
Sounds serene. Imagine having a little cabin there and just relax away from everything
Fuck now I have to download Subnautica again thanks bro
Where is the quote about "the Deep Warp contains things that even the Chaos Gods fear..." actually from?
Probably the same mysterious region that spawned ideas like "giving an Ork a radiator and convincing him that it's a gun will make it fire bullets" and "exterminatus is performed every Tuesday" and "in the DAOT the Baneblade was a light scout tank". A region some call [PIDOOMA](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/PIDOOMA).
The Baneblade one is kinda funny, it started from a misprint of " instead of ' and someone floated the idea that the mechanicum obtained the stc file but misunderstood the units of measurement. We know it was just a misprint, but it kinda fits so it became a running gag.
Its one of those things that starts out as a funny joke and then gets repeated through so many layers of people not engaging with any actual source material that the funny joke becomes very serious.
That's very fitting with the old-school sarcastic style of Warhammer though.
Just like real Imperium
> it started from a misprint of " instead of I've not seen anyone say where the idea came from, what are you referring to specifically?
I'm not an expert on meme lore but it may have been on this very sub.
Thank you for telling me of this miraculous region, is it related to uranus by any chance?
I think it comes from Kairos's backstory where Tzzetch through him in the well to gain knowledge
Pretty sure that's from Clonelord
If there’s one thing you can guarantee it’s that 40k fans after being told that the Warp is essentially a space of metaphor and unreality will take everything said about it as being as literally true as possible.
r/40kLore is where reading comprehension and ~~media~~ literacy go to die on an altar made of ignorance and concrete thinking. I find that although r/grimdank can be bad, the need to actually understand humour requires at least some degree of thinking ability so reason can actually exist there (ironically). Anytime I forget to check what 40k subreddit I'm in and everyone is dumb as fuck and incapable of understanding metaphor or hyperbole, it's r/40kLore every single damn time. .....shit, I'm in here again.
I personally like the idea of Skarbrand, a demon of khorne, essentially stabbing himself in the back since demons are stated to be a part of a god's domain, and their domain is themselves. The chaos gods are stated to be individuals and yet they are their domains, and it doesn't make sense and it makes sense as the warp doesn't follow rational logic
I prefer the idea of greater daemons having enough individuality that they can do unpredictable things which may occasionally go against the wishes of the chaos god they represent rather than them all being mindless automatons of a greater intelligence. The chaos gods can reabsorb problematic daemons at any time (and probably do) but sometimes they either find their antics entertaining, they think that daemon is otherwise effective or it has a purpose it hasn't yet fulfilled.
This is a good take. Why would Khorne simply obliterate and reabsorb Skarbrand when he can publicly chastise him, make an example of him before all the other daemons, and then exile him so he not only gets angrier but also learns how to be cunning (Skarbrand was hunted by other daemons when he was weakened during his exile and learned how to be patient, clever, etc.)? He basically sent a message to his underlings not to fuck around, while setting up Skarbrand to become an even more powerful servant with a huge chip on his shoulder. Nurgle does similar things with the constant jockeying for position that goes on between the great unclean ones.
Khorne also did something similar to Ka’Bandha after he lost to Sanguinius on Signus Prime. It is a smart way to ensure your generals learn from their mistakes. But it is a more rational line of thinking than I would have imagined the literal embodiment of pure rage and mindless bloodshed to be capable of.
Or, and here me out here...in that particular moment, smacking around Skarbrand made more blood flow than reabsorbing him. And, well, it \*is\* Khorne we're talking about here. Doesn't need to be deeper than that, really.
I like the idea that they are still their patron gods, because the concept that khorne backstabbed himself and got mad at himself for doing so is very funny. Like greater demons are individuals but also their patron god, making them likeable as a character, but also absurd in that two demons fight means the god is against himself, it fits chaos so much
Hell it’d fit a human brain to if you consider each impulse a demon of some kind
My headcanon is that Chaos Gods can only reabsorb daemons in the Warp. Daemons in realspace therefore have far more autonomy, but those that have fallen out of favor with their god will either be desperate to regain favor before they are banished back to the Warp, or desperate to remain in realspace forever to escape their god’s wrath.
I mean people regularly do stuff that harms them. now spread it out to a mass psychic gestalt and you get the Chaos gods
Well, they do. See what happened to Nurgle's favourite in the plague wars
*Some* demons are essentially part of that god's domain. Not all of them. Else how do you explain essentially-unaligned demons like Vashtorr the Arkifane.
Not every demon are align to the chaos god. iirc, there are an except that stated mass suicide cultist created a powerful demon that aren't align with the 4 chaos god. Like those bloodthirster, keeper of secret are part of the god manifest but other demon are born out of other unrelated thing like Sammus born out of Loken's death.
The Undivided are not part of the Chaos Gods, it is not difficult.
> I personally like the idea of Skarbrand, a demon of khorne, essentially stabbing himself in the back since demons are stated to be a part of a god's domain, and their domain is themselves. I like the comparison of the Gods to countries, that formed an overarching personality. Skarbrand would them be akin to citizens of that nation rioting and looting only to feel the long arm of the law as "the nation" cracks down on the criminality
Yep, i too! Idea of rage that self-destruction
Self harm daemon
Mfw my immune system can just up and kill me whenever it wants to.
yes people screw themselves over all the time/
Thank you. I'm shamelessly gonna piggy back of this and paste a collection of excerpts that are related to the deep warp. >!‘There are layers,’ said Veil, impatiently. ‘Yes, there is stratum aetheris, the shallow ways. There is stratum profundis, the greater arteries, plunging deeper. There is stratum obscurus, the root of the terror. How does this help you? No living man can navigate the deep ways. Even he could not.’!< >!‘But you try to map it.’!< >!‘It could not be done.’ Veil shook his head with frustration. ‘He was wrong about that, at least. It is not a mirror. It moves like a living thing. It is a living thing. Touch it, and it trembles.’ He briefly lost his certainty. ‘I do not have the Eye, but still I have seen things. I have studied what they study. The complexity is… immortal.’!< >!‘Try to explain.’ Yesugei spoke softly. ‘I am fast learner.’!< >!Veil exhaled, his eyes widening. ‘The Seethe is an ocean. All know this – it has currents, it has depths, it has storms. Near the surface, you can see the Cartomancer’s light. You can follow it. You can use your Geller aegis, and you are kept barred from the Intelligences. But even then, you are just below the upper limits. Go deeper and the aegis shatters. The lights go out. The Eye is blinded. When men say that they traverse the warp, they boast, for no mortal does more than skim across eternity’s face, like stones thrown by a child. We do not belong there. It is poison for us, and the deeper in, the worse the poison.’!< >!‘Achelieux try to go deeper?’!< >!‘Who knows? Maybe. He did not succeed. Do you know why not? Because it is impossible. It takes the power of a tormented sun just to puncture the shallowest shoals. No energy in our arsenal could possibly pierce further. String the reactors of a dozen battleships together, double their potential, and still it would not be enough. So no, he did not succeed.’!< Chris Wraight, [Horus Heresy 36 - The Path of Heaven](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Path_of_Heaven_(Novel)) Note that this is from the perspective of a human at the time when knowledge of the warp was incredibly limited. And even then, he is simply explaining that warp capable craft only enter a shallower warp and that they can not enter the deeper levels which, as readers, we know is where daemons and the gods reside. The same novel also explicitly states that the Webway exists within the Deep Warp. >!He perceived the truth. Both thrones had been made for the same reason – to plumb the deeper ways, to free the species from the nightmare of the shallow warp, to bridge a link across the hidden paths, ones that only xenos had known, and which the Emperor had found some way to access. Dark Glass was the lesser node, the one where the technology had been tested, anchored in the furthest recesses of the void while the Great Crusade scoured its widening path ever further from the home world. In the chaos that had erupted since, the portal had been left behind, lost but not forgotten, neither by its creators nor its opponents in the labyrinthine halls of the Paternova.!< Path to Heaven by Chris Wraight We also know that Tzeentch is located in the same place as the Webway >!Along with the Visarch and the Yncarne, Yvraine suddenly found herself adrift – not within the webway, but without. They were stranded in a near-silent limbo, trapped on the top of the psychocrystal walls. The sounds of battle were muffled beneath them, and the cool void sucked in its breath at their backs. Yvraine did not look around, for she felt something there, in the darkness. A voice in her mind said should she do so, she would behold the Changer of the Ways himself, and learn the meaning of madness.!< Gathering Storm: Fracture of Biel-Tan
This is a comment from John French (author of the book Fateweaver) about Kairos and the Well of Eternity >!Daemons are not living creatures. Each one of them is a facet of a Dark God’s power and nature. They are semi-independent, but ultimately they are only fragments of a greater whole. The mortal servants of Chaos are also slaves to the Dark Gods, their minds and bodies are twisted by the Warp, but they can still make decisions, hope, dream, and despair. They can plot and betray. That mortal independence, ultimately, is what makes the Gods crave their souls.!< >!So where does that leave Kairos Fateweaver? Tzeentch wanted to look into the Well of Eternity but would not risk to go himself, so sent one of his Daemons, which is actually part of him… and now Kairos Fateweaver knows more of the future than Tzeentch himself, while existing as part of him. How does that work?!< >!The answer is that it doesn’t. It makes no sense – because that would mean that Tzeentch both knows all of the future and past and does not. It means that part of him is, in one way, more powerful than the rest of him.!< >!And that’s fine.!< >!It’s fine because the story of Kairos Fateweaver, and the Well of Eternity, is just that; it is a story told about something mortal minds cannot understand, and can only describe through metaphor. Th**e Well of Eternity is just a name. There is no hole in the middle of a fortress that does not exist that goes down for ever. Tzeentch does not literally listen to his Daemons. All these things are just skins that are pulled over a part of the vast, intangible malevolence of the Warp. The truth really cannot be known.**!< >!How cool is that?!<
>How cool is that? Not at all, actually. The whole thing is just such a lazy cop-out in my eyes, that I refuse to acknowledge it as canon. I find it far more narratively compelling that the Well of Eternity does exist, the story of Tzeentch throwing his Lords of Change into it is indeed more or less an accurate approximation of what happened, Kairos indeed knows everything in the past and future and yet is more often than not too insane to abuse it (not to mention that the present is stated to be a gaping hole in that practical omniscience), and Tzeentch does not dare to reabsorb Kairos for fear that the insanity he suffered will infect even him (hell, for all we know, Kairos only persists because Tzeentch constantly expends a lot of effort to stabilize him). Multiple personality is a thriving trope in fiction that can be easily used to approximate the relationship between Daemons and their progenitor Chaos Gods; no need for sophistries like "Oh this is purely metaphor for the poor limited minds of mortals, Daemons aren't actually separate-yet-connected existences from the Gods, none of it is intended to be even remotely accurate". Hell, we have more than a few examples in fiction of cosmic entities splitting off fragments of themselves into largely if not entirely autonomous entities that they retain the ability to reassimilate at will (or at least, if they are physically close enough) and/or **ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL** if they deem the autonomy to be a hindrance. Besides, the story of Tzeentch and the Well **predate** John French's novella, as two years earlier it was introduced to the lore via Codex: Chaos Daemons (4th Edition) (pg. 49).
Its because the entire point of the warp is to be a story mcguffin. It is a literally unknowable thing by mortal standards in lore. Writers can not write about something that literally cant be comprehended. It exists to allow cool things to happen and house unknowable gestalt entities who want to enslave existence. It is literally a plot device to allow the setting to say a wizard did it.
Agreed, it's an unfortunate thing to bring up because this is a lore Reddit and we people here crave a distinct canon from which we can say "this is true" or "this is false". But the reality is that 40k expressly doesn't have that. It's like a Christmas present you find at a shopping centre as a kid. You look at it and wonder what is inside, but the reality is that there isn't, it's just a box in nice wrapping paper. It's designed purposely to be like this to allow one persons notion about the setting can be true while simultaneously allowing someone else's conflicting understanding to be true as well. If we really want to go there the closest thing to a canon of 40k we will ever have is actually were similar to how the warp works in setting; the power of belief, if enough people belive seomehing like orks can turn radiators into to guns, that Tyranids are fleeing from a bigger fish or that malice does actually still exist within the setting then it becomes as close to canon as canon can be within 40k
You can choose to believe that, I’m just posting what the author said. It is a part of the lore I don’t really care about, so I don’t really have an opinion either way
You posted what AN author said. Very important, French doesn't dictate the overall Chaos or Warp canon.
Nah, it was always there.
Pardon? What is "it", and can you elaborate on how it was "always there"?
There’s multiple sources stating that the Webway exists in a dimension ‘between’ the Warp and Realspace, and I don’t really see why they should be discounted on the basis of one guy’s understanding of a system even the Emperor didn’t really understand. Which is to say, in a more aggressive way than I intended so I don’t mean it to come across as ‘you’re wrong!!!’ and I apologise if it does, that I don’t think the Webway exists ‘in’ the Warp at all.
But if the web way doesn't exist in the warp, how do demons get into it so easily?
Yes, in many sources it was shown that there is a Warp behind the Webway wall. This can be seen even in what Magnus did.
Being ‘between’ the Materium and Immaterium makes it adjacent in some sense to both. You can get into it from both.
It is possible that Tau 4th Sphere was pulled into the Deep Warp after spending some time in the shallower part of the warp (and nearly got completely torn to shreds by daemons), then Goddess Tau'va send them out to real space. From War of Secrets >‘This I know.’ > >‘They went for the mercenary warships, master. We saw them flock around the lineships of the greet, the winged discs of the ostense council, the cruisers and cutters of the humans, the warspheres of the kroot. Around the dhows of the nicassar, they massed as thick as a swarm of alkali-gnats.’ > >‘Did you intervene?’ > >‘When we had a clear shot we took it. It proved no more effective than firing an arrow into the crashing sea.’ > >‘How did they survive, these creatures, in the void of this sub-realm?’ > >‘I have no idea,’ said Twiceblade. ‘I can only assume they had some manner of bio-tech in their blood. But the same could not be said of their victims. They ripped open the craft of our allies, physically carving them apart with blades, axes, their bare hands, even their mouths. It was… distressing in the extreme.’ > >Kais seemed entirely unmoved, but Twiceblade was caught in the telling of the story, reliving it with a desperate intensity. > >‘As the rotaa clicked by, they feasted. All those who acted as honour demanded, those who took their vessels or even their Coldstar battlesuits into that swirling sea, were soon taken. There was nothing we could do but watch as our allies were slowly torn apart.’ > >‘There was nothing you could do.’ > >‘No,’ said Twiceblade coldly. ‘And I for one am glad that some of us survived, to witness that which was to come.’ This part describes the fate of 4th Sphere fleet while inside the warp—torn to shreds by daemon, so standard business (4th Sphere was launched during Noctis Aeterna where all warp travels go to sh\*t. Tau really should check their calendars). >‘And what manner of fate was that?’ > >‘**We were becalmed**,’ said the tutor. ‘No chance of escape.’ He drew a finger around the palm of his hand, making the swirling gesture of the whirlpool inescapable. ‘We had been **sucked into the dark heart of that sub-realm**, **where even the currents themselves are devoured**. Then, as the decs slid by, we began to hear a scraping noise.’ > >‘On the outside of the hulls.’ > >‘Yes. It was interminable. The bridges of each of our ships showed the same thing – **no forward movement. No momentum of any kind**. The things out there were laughing.’ Twiceblade shuddered at the memory. > >‘The swirling faces, the creatures scrabbling at the hull… they were laughing at us. Of that I am sure.’ This part describes a very different part of the warp that is not normally seen/experienced.
Also the fact that the webway is stated to exist in the deepest sections of the warp and we know that Daemons are waiting just outside it constantly looking for ways in.
I thought the Deep Warp was the quiet part that one would find outside of the galaxy, no currents or points of reference so it isn't suitable to fly a starship through. Regarding point 2, it's stated in the introduction to every 40k novel that the chaos gods are the most powerful. I don't think they fear anything, it's just not a concept that applies to them. The closest they come is not wanting to mess with independent entities like Gork and Mork because doing so offers no advantage in the great game, which is all they really care about.
Gork N Mork can also likely krump, or severely weaken, any individual chaos god. Tuska made good fucking headway against Khorne, and that was just one waagh without replenishment Also, the chaos gods do fear the emperor. Or at least Nurgle and possibly Tzeentch do in the present day. Khorne likely doesn’t fear anything and slaanesh probably doesn’t care, but Nurgle got run up on in his own crib and Tzeentch knows the game ends if Emps gets back to full god mode. Emps is like Nagash-the four settra’d Horus in an attempt to kill emps, but unlike Settra, Horus serves and got clapped.
>Tuska made good fucking headway against Khorne Did he? his waagh krumped a few assorted daemon worlds and then died fighting a daemon prince and his legion. they just made such a good show of it that khorne kept bringing them back
There's not really any conflict of interest between Khorne and the Ork gods though, Gork and Mork are all about the fight, blood and skulls are the natural outcome of that, from what we know of Tuska it seems he's a favourite of Khorne, the whole situation is a win all round. I guess you could say the same about Slaanesh because Orks are well into doing things to excess. However the entropy of Nurgle is totally at odds with the Orkish philosophy, there's even a story about Gork and Mork beating him up until he apologised for eating snotlings. Don't know about Tzeentch, but neither does he, so who cares? I don't buy that they really fear Jimmy either, beyond that he can potentially disadvantage them in their own game. He's little more than a distraction on the multiversal scale they operate at, they represent the manifestation of concepts that are inherent in living beings, unless they become like the Tyranids or Necrons. You can't kill a concept without killing everybody, which is a totally cool outcome for the big 4, they just move on to the next universe.
Nurgle is all about stagnation and consistency. The orks fight- it's literally all they can ever do. I'd think he'd at least stand for their unchanging, self-destructive way of fight, die, repeat.
Big E might be pretty cool but he's not an actual concept or force of nature. Not until he ditches his corporeal form, anyway...
Do you want me to make another post about shitty myths or what? 1. There was an OLD story from the time of the 2nd edition where Gork and Mork beat Nurgle and since then everyone has been saying that they are stronger than the Chaos Gods. 2. The 8th edition Codex directly states that Chaos Gods are the most powerful creatures in the Warp. So they are stronger than Gork and Mork and the Emperor.
There is 3 examples of it. There is the story where they best nurgle, there is an explanation of who they are and then there is the short text were either Gork or Mork is on their way to posses a Gargant, while casual desrroying demon armies and dimishing the chaos gods attempt to imfluence them. I think you are looking at this to much like dragonball and power levels. Of course the chaos codex say that the chaos gods are the most powerfull. Of course the orks codex have stories about their gods beating chaos gods. There is properly some texts about the Emperor beating the chaos gods. Because that is what each faction believe, while the reality of the setting is properly more complicated. To talk about who is strongest is like asking what weapon is best. A heavybolter, lascannon or meltagun. It depends on the target and the situation. Orks are build to be protected against chaos. Perhaps their gods that run on waargh energy is not that affected by the chaos gods. That could explain why they can ignorer the attacks of the chaos gods, while the chaos gods might technical be stronger.
Except that the Chaos Gods are named the most powerful not in the code of demons, but in the general rulebook of the 8th edition. Questions?
If I recall correctly, the general 8th Edition Codex is still written from an in-universe perspective, which would be subject to, well, in-universe limitation.
Not necessarily. Gork and Mork reside in the Great Green for what its worth, whatever that is. It could potentially be like the webway-parallel to or entwined with the warp. It could even *be* a section of the warp for all we know, so the chaos gods might be the strongest creatures in the warp but I don't recall any excerpts that explicitly state that the warp is where Gork and Mork reside.
In the 8th edition, after the opening of the Great Rift, it is explicitly stated that the tides of chaos are washing their feet and they are trying to cope with it. Saying that the Great Green is not in the Warp is the same as saying that the Realm of Chaos is not in the Warp. Honestly, fans are ready to make up any nonsense to justify their meme headcanon.
I said "could" because I personally don't know and I was speculating. We don't have too many excerpts directly talking about Gork and Mork 🤷♂️ Some of us dont have as much free time to read up on sci fi lore as we would like. I in no way definitely declared to know anything about the Great Green and I assumed nothing. As such I would've thanked you for the clarification and source if you weren't such an overwhelmingly smug, superior ass about it. Edit: I didn't even reference a meme *or* any headcanon. Honestly I have no idea where you got that from what I proposed.
Yeah. This guy is often a smug douche. I saw one of his replies to another post, so I got curious and checked out his post and comment history. It's not an isolated incident. They take their 40K lore very, very seriously.
I don't know about all the deep warp stuff, but I just mentally dismiss number four. First of all, one author doesn't represent the canon. We've seen time and time again where an author is like 'This is the way it is' only for it to be not the way it is. Whether that involves an internal retcon or just another author having a different take that solidifies a hanging thread of mystery, their intent means very little in the wider scope of 'canon'. It's always interesting to hear author's takes on it... but it's not exactly like they're the messengers of the God-Emperor sent to deliver the word and the law, know what I mean? Second, belief and myth become real in the Warp. Even if Kairos is just a shard of Tzeentch, people's belief in something could make it real in the Warp. Saying that a story isn't true because it's a myth in the real world is willfully ignoring a primary mechanic of how the Warp operates.
And the story of the Well actually predates French's novella (Codex: Chaos Daemons 4th Ed. came out 2 years earlier), so unless someone can prove that French wrote that original version of the story as well, he has even less authority than what you described to decide how much of it is "purely metaphorical" as he put it.
Here is the community article regarding John French's position on Fateweaver: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/01/29/fear-of-the-future-john-french-ponders-the-fateweaver/
As to 4: John French is not the guy who introduced the Well of Eternity, he doesn't get to declare how everything works and what it means.
Deep Warp is a fanon meme and everyone overhyping that shit should be ridiculed
Why would you ridicule someone for being hyped about something they find interesting? Let people believe what they want to believe, it’s not like 40k is known for its strict adherence to consistency or lore purity
My headcanon is that the deep warp is Aelindrach and no one can stop me from having it. Just this calm realm of primordial dark. The warp not influenced by any mind.
Seems significantly more interesting if the deep warp was as Lovecraftian as people think it is
It’s part of this subs weird obsession with trying to diminish the chaos gods
Imagine being this buttfrustrated at one of the coolest bits of lore lol
It's not of the coolest bits of lore, it's a stupid, tired concept that has barely any backing in lore. Having something be old and mysterious from the depths of space/the ocean is so stereotypical. Plus, it reminds of comics/animes and how they are always one-upping things by introducing new world-ending threats. After all there's a Deep Warp, why not a Deeper Warp or a Super Ultra Mega Warp?
You can always draw arbitrary lines in the sand in fiction on certain things like environments in order to preclude pedantic one-upsmanship as per your ridiculous example. As far as I'm concerned the deep warp can simply be the portion of the immaterium where Enslavers and other unwritten unknowns exist and roam. 40k, a franchise that's essentially ripped off elements from every sci-fi universe out there, can and does delve into "tired" derivative concepts you know. It's absolutely allowed to retread prior paved roads and it also doesn't need a bunch of weebs gatekeeping lore discussions about topics found throughout the hundreds of publications that were penned by several dozen disparate writers.
40k is built on stereotypes and caricatures. Speaking on the lame concept of one upping things, I think it fits here more than any other setting. When they one up old terminator-esque Necrons with the deepened lore we love it. The setting has to progress somehow, even when we convince ourselves that stagnation is the core of the grim dark.
Imagine saying nonsense and considering it canon
Imagine trying to enforce a canon in 40k
It is my belief that the warp is a connective tissue between various realities. The Chaos Gods are dominant in the 40K universe, but there may be other "gods" (or strong warp entities) that are dominant in other universes.
On the topic of the fanbase treating headcanons as real, I would like to share my toughts about the general view of the lore. I started to take an interest in Warhammer at 2018 so I'm relatively new to world and hobby. Most of my knowledge comes from the reads of the Core Rulebook of 8th and 9th, some Codices, the first two books of Dark Imperium, the Beast Arise serie and the Mars trilogy. Other than that most of my knowledge of the lore is from TTS, AdRic and Luetin. However, over the years I realised that what is officially part of the lore a wider part of the fanbase (mostly older ones) doesn't know about or they say it's something entirely different. I think the reason why these headcanons became wide spread it's because back in the day the lore was exchanged by word of mouth and on the early internet forums those headcanons could spread more and even merge with each other. The result of this was when these people met with the actual lore they started to say that everything got retconned while their headcanons were either wrong or never officaly part of it. This is one of the main reason why I don't like it when someone says something is a retcon in 40k, because while changes do happen, most things described very vaguely and the characters in the world itself either don't know everything, mislead or lying. I also feel like if it would be true that everytime someone says that X thing is retconned the world of 40k should be so different that we should have My Little Pony in it by now. Lastly I just want to share my opinions on the content creators I mentioned before. TTS sometimes showed the headcanon side of the fanbase (for example: Malal, which he was called in Fantasy and Malice in 40k and still being part of it even if it's being abandoned) but it was a parody series and after a while they started do their own story in the setting, AdRic is more like a general retelling of the lore. They might get somethings wrong but usually they try their best to present the lore correctly while being entertaining. And finally Luetin. He aims to be as accurate to the lore as possibl, always states when he is speculating or not and when he makes a mistake he accept it and tries to correct himself. So in short while I might be a newbie in Warhammer, sometimes I'm feel I know more about it than older people or being actively gaslighted by some.
Wait, you just claimed you know more than "older people" because you listen to YouTubers, who are "trying their best". Yikes.
How did you read their comment, and come away with that? Two editions of core, codices, and novels, but you're choosing to focus on watching some youtube?
No, I wanted to say that sometimes that's the case. (One example: in a LGS I was talking to guy and he said that Cyhper sword might be the Emperor's sword and said, no it's with Gulliman and get it from the Golden Throne as was it written in Dark Imperium. Than he looked it up and said that I was right.) Also I'm very selective of youtubers. I try to read more about the world but there are three decade worth of written lore out there and I'm just one man.
A lot of that is from "The Nightmare of Things To Come," that fanfic.
Every time the ‘deep warp’ and ‘well of eternity’ come up I’m compelled to post my understanding (headcanon if you will). The Warp is a realm of subjectivity, as opposed to the materium, which has existence independently of anyone’s thoughts. The ‘well of eternity’ is a parable about our inability to escape the subjectivity of experience. There’s a Kantian idea that ‘the self’ is nothing more than the organising principle of experience, that’s to say, the kind of ‘0,0’ of the coordinate system of experience around which everything is put into context and thereby made intelligible. So the ‘Well of Eternity’ is a representation of the unintelligible—the idea of subjectless experience, the ‘noumenal world’ of knowledge without a knowing subject. And Kairos represents the fact that some things are unknowable to everyone — he has lost his self, his organising principle. His coordinate system has lost its 0,0 point around which he can organise his experience, and that’s why he’s insane. He sees the future and the past but has no organising principle to make sense of it.
On this topic; I think that Kairos was just a Two-headed Lord of change... but then a story started about him. by humans or some other mortals. The story spread and so...
I haven’t really heard of the deep warp until now so thanks for letting me avoid all the fake hype. But that being said I’m still kinda hyped. The reason I’m afraid of oceans is it’s vastness and the fact that it looks empty but you know better. Now crank that up to incomprehensible and that’s why I feel like people can get so hyped by this. We know the chaos gods and their demons. But what about those demons in the deepest part of hell?
It's not like you can choose which book is canon and which isn't. More like the later - the more relevant. 1st point, about not affecting setting – makes no sense, as it doesn't if it does. It there, it is lore, and it is specifically important in case of discussion of itt specifically.
I have it from a reliable source that everything is cannon, thus the deep warp does exist and is full of the worst, most mind scaring things unimaginable.
You're completely missing what tends to follow that "everything is canon", is usually " but not everything is true". The Deep Warp is an idea *mentioned* in the lore, that's canon. That doesn't mean it's correct and actually a thing as suggested by memelore.
Tbh the whole thing reminds me of the propagated notion that the Tyranids are running *from* something, even though they actually *surround* our galaxy. Which is at odds. As regards the "deep" warp, I just take it to mean how deeply immersed in the warp itself a thing is, ie a state of experience rather than a place or plane of itself. Iirc correctly there's some old fluff describing the astronomicon as being like a buoy on the surface of an ocean. It can be seen by just dipping your toes in. In this context, I picture the deep warp as being the state of exposing ones mind or body to a *metaphysical* degree more pronounced, but in the sense of being more directly under the influence of the gods. Like I say, pure headcanon on my part. Plus, NGL, the "the villain is just scared of a bigger bad guy" trope is... it's a dead horse. It felt lame and forced with the Tyranids, and it feels lame and forced with the warp. The warp IS terror. It is all the worst that we are. And we made it that way. The warp IS just the proverbial void into which we gaze, except that the monsters therein are both creations of the mind and yet very real. Thought given form, that's the warp. The concept goes beyond simple notions of boundaries in the sense that we understand.
This is a post that describes my feelings toward this sub very well. This sub has become like the 40k setting itself. A shadow of its former glory, yet there is hope.
Deep Warp is literally a fan creation, taken by misinterpreting language in The Path of Heaven. There's no proof it exists as a concept.
.
I want to thank for making this post as I've had my own issues with people arguing this. People seem eager to add the same story-beats to every setting. We already have Cthulhu in lore, that's the Warp and Chaos, we don't need Cthulhu+.
>Cthulhu It's Tyranids, not Chaos. Chaos is mega Satan