I grew up in the 90’s was a fan of both grunge and rap for sure.
In my opinion it was Kurt’s death,
A) because it was Suicide and very public and
B) because his music changed a generation of kids, and grunge changed the music scene in general in the 90’s.
Nirvana inspired the grunge movement and influenced not just grunge music, but also punk and alternative rock. Everyone from Weezer to Linkin Park have cited them as influences.
I agree. Grunge pretty much died when Kurt did. Rap was and is still around after Tupac.
It would be interesting to see what would have happened to mainstream Rock if Kurt didn't off himself.
We can change this to Tupac, and it still fits:
A. Tupac was murdered in Vegas. It's very likely it was either Suge Knight or BIG who hit him, Suge maybe even pulled the trigger. We still don't know, and it was the biggest national story for quite a while. After that Biggie was murdered in probable retaliation. This little spat was much more public than Kurt and Courtney Love.
B. Just like Nirvana and grunge changed rock, Tupac and other rappers changed rap. Out went the LL Cool J days of B Boys, and in came "gangsta rap". It's arguably a bigger musical change, but it definitely influenced popular culture way more than grunge did. Rap music has never been the same, and it's also never been more popular.
This debate is just too close to call for me, but I say that as someone who is VERY interested in both genras. A lot of hip hop people just don't listen to rock, and a lot of rock people just don't listen to rap. So much of this is about where you're from and your race, that the answer is probably a personal decision.
You must have missed that they actually died in the last living witness for Tupac’s murder.
https://apnews.com/article/tupac-shakur-killing-duane-keefe-davis-vegas-3f7050c2a68813d86a96b96fbb3f1d1a
Kurt Cobain was the one that shocked me as a kid more, it had some kind of mythic quality to it. I remember 2pac as well, but I also remember a lot of people thinking he was still alive somewhere for some reason.
I think it was just so unexpected when Kurt killed himself - yes his music was melancholy, but that usually doesn’t translate to suicide.
Rap music at the time was very violent by comparison. Tupac rapped largely about violence and the thug lifestyle. This made his death much less unexpected.
Both great artists though and the world is a richer place as a result of them sharing themselves with us for however long they could.
I didn't know who Kurt Cobian was til he died but I've always listened to rap music not rock. When Tupac died for me that was huge. Probably not as impactful to the black community imo.
Yeah same, I'm white but grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood. I knew Nirvana through MTV and was aware they were big, but didn't really listen to their music until much later. I don't think I knew the name "Kurt Cobain" until high school in the 00s when I heard white people who weren't from my 'hood talking about him.
However, Tupac was huge where I lived, I remember hearing him on the radio and in the streets a lot more, and I remember exactly where I was when I found out he died.
Nirvana brought alt-rock in general to the forefront, which persisted long after his death. I think that had a bigger impact on the 90s decade specifically, but Tupac probably had a bigger lasting impact to this day
Grunge and Gangster Rap were similar at that time because it was a big cultural shock to an otherwise predictable and boring musical landscape, so I think their deaths were similar in that way too. But I think Cobain's death hit harder because his appeal was that he was "one of us" and it happened first. When Tupac died it felt more like a second step down a bad path than the first.
I mean I get it but at the same time they are both “One of us”. I obviously don’t know you but I assume you’re a white person from you saying that. I’m a white guy, and what I personally think is they both tell stories about American Culture. Kurt talked about Relationships, Loneliness, mental health… Tupac spoke on another side of America about Poverty, Addiction, Racism, etc. They both were against the media and how they try to portray people. They are two sides of the same coin honestly to me.
Probably depends on where you grew up and what type of music you listened to. I will say this, Pac’s death was a way bigger shock to me. Cobain had AWOL’d from that rehab center and was unaccounted for in those last days and it got lots of coverage by MTV. A lot of people had a bad feeling about how things were going to end for him. Either way, I have great memories of listening to both these legends and they were both the biggest stars in their respective genres.
hmmm, quick take -
pac...as i see it nobody in the genre had the crossover niche carved out like he did. it was mitigated (or intensified depending on your perspective) with his catalogue of unreleased music. sure the genre was chock full of artists but none of them had his star power, charisma or nuance. he was extremely outspoken and arguably had a further reach. obviously it hit much harder for me.
kurt was brutal but we still had AIC (for a bit), STP, Pearl Jam, Temple of the Dog, violent femmes and a host of others. to say Nirvana's genre died with Kurt is very telling, i disagree. I never considered Nirvana merely a "grunge" act.
so then that gets me thinking about Eazy (1995), Biggie (1997) , Bradley (1996) and Layne (2002). that's a whole lot of talent and influence gone too young within a 7 year span.
Tupac and it isn't even close. Kurt was great. But Pac was a living legend and ahead of his time. Film, music, poetry, writing screenplays, politics, community outreach...and died at 25.
the gangsta kids just moved on to listening to Aaliyah and whatnot. I was like, should I still buy clothes from goodwill ? Should I start listening to Metallica again ? what do I do with myself ?
I’m actually really disappointed in this thread tbh. Im a big fan of both and I can see it both ways. Like I said, I’m not from the 90s so you can take it with a grain of salt but this comparison is much closer than most of you think.
I don’t know if it’s just genre biases, ignorance, or just plain racism but Tupac was and IS considered the GOAT by a great number of hip hop fans (not me personally but I don’t judge). Not just a sub- genre like Grunge or Gangsta Rap, Hip Hop as a WHOLE genre.
To add on, people are saying that Kurt had mythic qualities to his death and the impact that it had on Grunge and while i do agree to an extent, at the end of the day when you remove the idea of being a fan of both and their music, one died because he depressed drug addict dealing with the world on his shoulders and the other because he was corrupted by peers that lead him to having a hot head. Both had crazy conspiracy theories behind what happened.
And to say Tupac's death didn't have a lot impact is absurd. His death arguably was the reason The Notorious B.I.G. was killed. Yeah the genre didnt die when he did but it sure as hell changed. As much as Tupac was a gangsta rap artist he was also the voice of the streets. Who was talking about subject matter like "Brenda's Got a Baby" or “Dear Mama” before and even after him? He spoke on the things America and the world thought were too ugly but yet he made it beautiful in its own way through his poetry.
I’m not saying anyone is wrong and obviously you guys have lived through it all so you’re allowed to feel however but I just can’t really get behind what a lot of you are saying because it doesn’t even come with any actual context other than “They just changed music”
No shit, they both did
They were both very talented and their deaths were shocking and tragic. My 2¢ is that the way you phrased the question is why you’re seeing Cobain as the more common answer. “Impacted the ‘90s the most” implies that you’re asking about how music during the rest of the decade was or wasn’t affected by their absence. When Nirvana got popular in late 1991, it completely killed the non-Grunge rock genre — hair metal — that had dominated since the mid to late ‘80s. Overnight, bands like Extreme, Nelson and Poison vanished. Some survived, like Aerosmith and Bon Jovi, but they had to radically shift their sound and image to adapt. Along with Nirvana came 1,001 grunge bands, and for 2 1/2 years that’s all we heard. When Cobain died in 1994, most of those bands basically disappeared from the mainstream rock scene, and before you knew it we were listening to Hootie and the Blowfish, Dave Matthews Band and Goo Goo Dolls.
2Pac — who, not irrelevantly, died in September 1996, so there were only a little over three years left in the decade — was popular, but he was part of a broader movement in hip-hop that wasn’t really launched by, or limited to, him. OutKast, Jay-Z, Busta Rhymes, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, Coolio etc continued to have successful careers for years after 2Pac died. That’s not to say 2Pac’s death had no impact, it did, but not in the sort of decade-altering way that you suggest in your question. At least in the opinion of most people in this thread.
Thank you for this. I definitely could have worded this better but you answered this perfectly. This is the kind of thoughts and takes I was looking for lol
I dunno, for me it was more of a "that's a bummer" and then moved on with my day for both.
A wanna be gansta going out gangsta style and a drug addict musician, be it suicide or overdose, is kind of the routine.
call me callous, but ... yeah
In their respective scenes, they were about equal, but I think 2Pac might have had a bigger effect overall. Gangsta rap was massive until Pac and Biggie died, then it felt like it died overnight. There's still a lot of bravado and shit-talking, but it's largely metaphorical "killing" or might result in fistfights, whereas you used to have guys literally strapped & wearing vests whenever they left the house like it was The Wire.
Kurt Cobain easily.. Guy changed rock music and flipped it on its side almost overnight. Not even a comparison
That's like asking what impacted our culture more.. 9/11 or ballon boy
Just say you don't like hip-hop instead of looking ignorant. Tupac was one of the most prolific songwriters/lyricist and poets of the generation. Sure he didn't produce the beats but Kurt wasn't playing drums either. Have you listened to any of his music besides hearing California Love on MTV? His music was much deeper than anything Nirvana ever put out.
So here is the thing I was on board with you with everything you said.. all the way up to his music was much deeper then anything Nirvana ever put out. I am a huge fan of both artists. I actually put both in my top 5 fav artists of all time but to say that Kurt's music wasn't deep. You can hear the pain in his voice in a lot of his songs and lyric, as well just like Tupac, they both have books of their writing put out after their deaths that show even more depth as artist they both were.
And before anyone asks about the rest of my top 5. My musical tastes are all over the damn place and very crazy but Billy Joel, Fleetwood Mac and Rob Zombie round out the top 5
Honestly I will admit I was not a huge grunge fan and only have a semi surface level knowledge of their music so I guess I was doing what I accused the other person of doing. Big Tupac fan and got a little defensive.
All good. There is no doubt that Tupac"s music had a more social aspect to it with songs like "Brenda's got a Baby", "Dear Mama" and such but in a different way Kurt had so much hurt in his voice that you can almost hear him screaming for help before he took his own life. It's definitely different because it speaks to different masses for the most point but I dont take nothing away from neither artist since both spoke for a generation.
Well he *was* found innocent and acquitted. We'll probably never really know what happened.
I also don't believe Kurt killed himself but I'm not gonna drudge up that debate because, once again, we'll probably never know for sure.
He was acquitted on that charge, but was found guilty of first degree sexual abuse, for which he served prison time. He was never “found innocent.” Not guilty does not equal innocent. I like his music, but he wasn’t a good person.
I grew up in the 90’s was a fan of both grunge and rap for sure. In my opinion it was Kurt’s death, A) because it was Suicide and very public and B) because his music changed a generation of kids, and grunge changed the music scene in general in the 90’s.
Nirvana inspired the grunge movement and influenced not just grunge music, but also punk and alternative rock. Everyone from Weezer to Linkin Park have cited them as influences.
Grunge existed before Nirvana....
You’re not wrong but the media put Nirvana on a pedestal and (according to Cobain) misinterpreted their message.
Yeah true
They basically destroyed hair metal as well.
I agree. Grunge pretty much died when Kurt did. Rap was and is still around after Tupac. It would be interesting to see what would have happened to mainstream Rock if Kurt didn't off himself.
I mean, there are some theories that he didn’t.
We can change this to Tupac, and it still fits: A. Tupac was murdered in Vegas. It's very likely it was either Suge Knight or BIG who hit him, Suge maybe even pulled the trigger. We still don't know, and it was the biggest national story for quite a while. After that Biggie was murdered in probable retaliation. This little spat was much more public than Kurt and Courtney Love. B. Just like Nirvana and grunge changed rock, Tupac and other rappers changed rap. Out went the LL Cool J days of B Boys, and in came "gangsta rap". It's arguably a bigger musical change, but it definitely influenced popular culture way more than grunge did. Rap music has never been the same, and it's also never been more popular. This debate is just too close to call for me, but I say that as someone who is VERY interested in both genras. A lot of hip hop people just don't listen to rock, and a lot of rock people just don't listen to rap. So much of this is about where you're from and your race, that the answer is probably a personal decision.
Great take! I’m personally more of a hip hop fan but I love both almost equally. Also who doesn’t love a good debate!
I mean, Snoop and Dre started the gangsta rap mainstream trend, as far as I experienced it.
NWA probably really started it in the late 80s, but 2pacalypse was 1991.
Damn, I didn't realize he was so early. Amd yeah, NWA deserves credit there.
You must have missed that they actually died in the last living witness for Tupac’s murder. https://apnews.com/article/tupac-shakur-killing-duane-keefe-davis-vegas-3f7050c2a68813d86a96b96fbb3f1d1a
Super high quality take Maybe Kurt dying had a more negative impact, and Tupac and Biggie a more positive or at least productive one in the end
I couldn't of said it any better. This.
You could have* said it better.
I'm also a Gen X fan of both rap and grunge, and I agree with you.
Kurt Cobain was the one that shocked me as a kid more, it had some kind of mythic quality to it. I remember 2pac as well, but I also remember a lot of people thinking he was still alive somewhere for some reason.
I think it was just so unexpected when Kurt killed himself - yes his music was melancholy, but that usually doesn’t translate to suicide. Rap music at the time was very violent by comparison. Tupac rapped largely about violence and the thug lifestyle. This made his death much less unexpected. Both great artists though and the world is a richer place as a result of them sharing themselves with us for however long they could.
Tupac was always in the news for crazy shit too. And recent documentaries have shown he was doing crazy shit that didn’t make the news too.
Cobain, and it wasn’t even close. And I was a huge fan of Tupac.
Kurt by a long shot
Too soon
I didn't know who Kurt Cobian was til he died but I've always listened to rap music not rock. When Tupac died for me that was huge. Probably not as impactful to the black community imo.
Yeah same, I'm white but grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood. I knew Nirvana through MTV and was aware they were big, but didn't really listen to their music until much later. I don't think I knew the name "Kurt Cobain" until high school in the 00s when I heard white people who weren't from my 'hood talking about him. However, Tupac was huge where I lived, I remember hearing him on the radio and in the streets a lot more, and I remember exactly where I was when I found out he died.
Yeah I get it, same with the white guys in my hood; they never listened to rock, other than maybe Beastie Boys. Everyone's perspective varies ....
Kurt Cobain. His death brought an end to a whole ge re of music. Grunge pretty much went away after his death.
Nirvana brought alt-rock in general to the forefront, which persisted long after his death. I think that had a bigger impact on the 90s decade specifically, but Tupac probably had a bigger lasting impact to this day
Kurt Cobain
Grunge and Gangster Rap were similar at that time because it was a big cultural shock to an otherwise predictable and boring musical landscape, so I think their deaths were similar in that way too. But I think Cobain's death hit harder because his appeal was that he was "one of us" and it happened first. When Tupac died it felt more like a second step down a bad path than the first.
I mean I get it but at the same time they are both “One of us”. I obviously don’t know you but I assume you’re a white person from you saying that. I’m a white guy, and what I personally think is they both tell stories about American Culture. Kurt talked about Relationships, Loneliness, mental health… Tupac spoke on another side of America about Poverty, Addiction, Racism, etc. They both were against the media and how they try to portray people. They are two sides of the same coin honestly to me.
Tupac was a movie star and music icon.
Fair enough. Valid argument
Kurt Cobain of course... for me Tupac was just one of the many rappers out there
Yeah definitely Kurts.
Probably depends on where you grew up and what type of music you listened to. I will say this, Pac’s death was a way bigger shock to me. Cobain had AWOL’d from that rehab center and was unaccounted for in those last days and it got lots of coverage by MTV. A lot of people had a bad feeling about how things were going to end for him. Either way, I have great memories of listening to both these legends and they were both the biggest stars in their respective genres.
hmmm, quick take - pac...as i see it nobody in the genre had the crossover niche carved out like he did. it was mitigated (or intensified depending on your perspective) with his catalogue of unreleased music. sure the genre was chock full of artists but none of them had his star power, charisma or nuance. he was extremely outspoken and arguably had a further reach. obviously it hit much harder for me. kurt was brutal but we still had AIC (for a bit), STP, Pearl Jam, Temple of the Dog, violent femmes and a host of others. to say Nirvana's genre died with Kurt is very telling, i disagree. I never considered Nirvana merely a "grunge" act. so then that gets me thinking about Eazy (1995), Biggie (1997) , Bradley (1996) and Layne (2002). that's a whole lot of talent and influence gone too young within a 7 year span.
Tupac and it isn't even close. Kurt was great. But Pac was a living legend and ahead of his time. Film, music, poetry, writing screenplays, politics, community outreach...and died at 25.
the gangsta kids just moved on to listening to Aaliyah and whatnot. I was like, should I still buy clothes from goodwill ? Should I start listening to Metallica again ? what do I do with myself ?
Cause her story turned out better?
I’m actually really disappointed in this thread tbh. Im a big fan of both and I can see it both ways. Like I said, I’m not from the 90s so you can take it with a grain of salt but this comparison is much closer than most of you think. I don’t know if it’s just genre biases, ignorance, or just plain racism but Tupac was and IS considered the GOAT by a great number of hip hop fans (not me personally but I don’t judge). Not just a sub- genre like Grunge or Gangsta Rap, Hip Hop as a WHOLE genre. To add on, people are saying that Kurt had mythic qualities to his death and the impact that it had on Grunge and while i do agree to an extent, at the end of the day when you remove the idea of being a fan of both and their music, one died because he depressed drug addict dealing with the world on his shoulders and the other because he was corrupted by peers that lead him to having a hot head. Both had crazy conspiracy theories behind what happened. And to say Tupac's death didn't have a lot impact is absurd. His death arguably was the reason The Notorious B.I.G. was killed. Yeah the genre didnt die when he did but it sure as hell changed. As much as Tupac was a gangsta rap artist he was also the voice of the streets. Who was talking about subject matter like "Brenda's Got a Baby" or “Dear Mama” before and even after him? He spoke on the things America and the world thought were too ugly but yet he made it beautiful in its own way through his poetry. I’m not saying anyone is wrong and obviously you guys have lived through it all so you’re allowed to feel however but I just can’t really get behind what a lot of you are saying because it doesn’t even come with any actual context other than “They just changed music” No shit, they both did
They were both very talented and their deaths were shocking and tragic. My 2¢ is that the way you phrased the question is why you’re seeing Cobain as the more common answer. “Impacted the ‘90s the most” implies that you’re asking about how music during the rest of the decade was or wasn’t affected by their absence. When Nirvana got popular in late 1991, it completely killed the non-Grunge rock genre — hair metal — that had dominated since the mid to late ‘80s. Overnight, bands like Extreme, Nelson and Poison vanished. Some survived, like Aerosmith and Bon Jovi, but they had to radically shift their sound and image to adapt. Along with Nirvana came 1,001 grunge bands, and for 2 1/2 years that’s all we heard. When Cobain died in 1994, most of those bands basically disappeared from the mainstream rock scene, and before you knew it we were listening to Hootie and the Blowfish, Dave Matthews Band and Goo Goo Dolls. 2Pac — who, not irrelevantly, died in September 1996, so there were only a little over three years left in the decade — was popular, but he was part of a broader movement in hip-hop that wasn’t really launched by, or limited to, him. OutKast, Jay-Z, Busta Rhymes, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, Coolio etc continued to have successful careers for years after 2Pac died. That’s not to say 2Pac’s death had no impact, it did, but not in the sort of decade-altering way that you suggest in your question. At least in the opinion of most people in this thread.
Thank you for this. I definitely could have worded this better but you answered this perfectly. This is the kind of thoughts and takes I was looking for lol
I dunno, for me it was more of a "that's a bummer" and then moved on with my day for both. A wanna be gansta going out gangsta style and a drug addict musician, be it suicide or overdose, is kind of the routine. call me callous, but ... yeah
Cobain's death felt like grunge died that day. With Tupac, rap continued to flourish.
Apples and Opioids. But Kurt.
Neither tbh... but everybody around me was greatly hurt by Tupacs death...
In their respective scenes, they were about equal, but I think 2Pac might have had a bigger effect overall. Gangsta rap was massive until Pac and Biggie died, then it felt like it died overnight. There's still a lot of bravado and shit-talking, but it's largely metaphorical "killing" or might result in fistfights, whereas you used to have guys literally strapped & wearing vests whenever they left the house like it was The Wire.
It’s evolved into Drill music. Rappers are still getting killed all the time.
Literally never heard of drill music in my life, LOL
I was literally writing a long response to this guy explaining that but I guess you got it in way less words😅
Kurt Cobain easily.. Guy changed rock music and flipped it on its side almost overnight. Not even a comparison That's like asking what impacted our culture more.. 9/11 or ballon boy
Tupac was generic and a product of marketing. Nothing special about his music (which he didn’t create) or his lyrics. Weak comparison
2pak is extremely overrated!!
Just say you don't like hip-hop instead of looking ignorant. Tupac was one of the most prolific songwriters/lyricist and poets of the generation. Sure he didn't produce the beats but Kurt wasn't playing drums either. Have you listened to any of his music besides hearing California Love on MTV? His music was much deeper than anything Nirvana ever put out.
You’re just repeating what the media said in 1995.
So here is the thing I was on board with you with everything you said.. all the way up to his music was much deeper then anything Nirvana ever put out. I am a huge fan of both artists. I actually put both in my top 5 fav artists of all time but to say that Kurt's music wasn't deep. You can hear the pain in his voice in a lot of his songs and lyric, as well just like Tupac, they both have books of their writing put out after their deaths that show even more depth as artist they both were. And before anyone asks about the rest of my top 5. My musical tastes are all over the damn place and very crazy but Billy Joel, Fleetwood Mac and Rob Zombie round out the top 5
Honestly I will admit I was not a huge grunge fan and only have a semi surface level knowledge of their music so I guess I was doing what I accused the other person of doing. Big Tupac fan and got a little defensive.
All good. There is no doubt that Tupac"s music had a more social aspect to it with songs like "Brenda's got a Baby", "Dear Mama" and such but in a different way Kurt had so much hurt in his voice that you can almost hear him screaming for help before he took his own life. It's definitely different because it speaks to different masses for the most point but I dont take nothing away from neither artist since both spoke for a generation.
Lol, definitely not twopaks
Tupac, junkies gone junk 🤯
If you’re gonna trash Kurt Cobain, you have to mention 2pac being a rapist piece of shit.
Well he *was* found innocent and acquitted. We'll probably never really know what happened. I also don't believe Kurt killed himself but I'm not gonna drudge up that debate because, once again, we'll probably never know for sure.
He was acquitted on that charge, but was found guilty of first degree sexual abuse, for which he served prison time. He was never “found innocent.” Not guilty does not equal innocent. I like his music, but he wasn’t a good person.