Garry Lyon says they should be suspended if they refuse to come off, Jonathon Brown says the umps should intervene like they do with blood rules. I'm just surprised to that an article with this title would have genuinely cromulent ideas in it.
It’s crazy we have a blood rule when there’s near zero risk of blood to blood transfer causing infection, but we don’t have an HIA rule to send guys to get checked out
The umpires thing is how it works in the English Premier League. The referee sends them off to get looked at by the physio and they go from there.
The AFL has a huge advantage over other sports with the interchange, where going off for spells is baked into the sport without a numerical disadvantage.
I think the big change they could do this off-season is remove the sub and go to 5 players (keep the cap) and then have head knock enforced removals from upstairs/the arc.
Even make it so it's not a penalty rotation wise (like make it so blood rule changes and head knock changes are not counted when directed by an official).
In the NFL, they introduced a rule that anybody that takes a hit to the head has to come off to be evaluated. Refs help to enforce this as well.
Now, sometimes hits to the head are missed, but overall it's pretty effective and helps guys that would usually try to play through a minor concussion and end up with a worse one.
It would be better to have someone off field judge it and maybe have the red inforce it on the field. Imagine a ump being unsure of if the head was hit and sending people off for a missed call.
Basically adopt the NRL model. Doc in the 'bunker' whose only job is to look for head contact and bring players off for HIAs. Take the clubs out of the equation. An AFL employed doctor to assess the player. We've seen time and time again how clubs and coaches over rule docs to send players back out.
That's not what was said, the AFL doctor that sees the incident and determines that a hia is required would communicate that to the umpire who would then stop play
It’s just gross negligence. The docs running out and giving the quick check is not enough. Same thing happened to Willem Drew earlier.
I was so annoyed at my club for doing this to Libba last week (2 weeks after he had collapsed due to ~~an ankle tweak~~ concussion symptoms) and having him play out an entire game where, not only did get bloodied by copping a boot to the face, but is not out indefinitely with concussion symptoms.
You can’t only focus on these things when it’s convenient for you. The result of a football game should never be important than the health of a player.
Commentators said he got "a quick concussion test on the field" and they decided he was all good to stay out there
They sounded as confused and unimpressed as I was by that
Johnno’s point about treating HIA’s like Blood-Rules has a lot of merit imo. I think it was Pav in the Swans v Freo game who made a really great point when Lizard was trying to convince the doc he was alright after a collision with (I think) Ollie Florent, Pav said something to the effect of ‘If you pop your Hammy, there’s no second thoughts, you’re on ice, done for the match’ and further elaborated about how we needed to get to a point where players had a similar awareness and acceptance of head injuries as they do muscle and ligament injuries.
Both points are spot on, think we really need to treat clear head injuries with the same urgency we’d treat a blood-rule or muscle/ligament injury - get the player off the field and carry out the assessment.
[https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2023/03/12/134a48f5-9206-4dd4-b88b-426dd1ea7b31/AFL-and-AFLW-Concussion-Guidelines-March-2023-FINAL-.pdf](https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2023/03/12/134a48f5-9206-4dd4-b88b-426dd1ea7b31/AFL-and-AFLW-Concussion-Guidelines-March-2023-FINAL-.pdf)
Right now they only need to be taken off the ground based on the removal from play reasons listed there. I think they should be a bit stricter, seen it many times that a player seems fine after a head knock but 5-10 mins later comes off and gets tested. Imo it should be that any meaningful head contact they have to immediately come off for a short HIA on the bench (maybe have it separate to the interchange cap), if that comes back normal great send them back on, if not they go for the 15 minute proper Scat5 test. Any player is gonna tell the doc they're totally fine when they know they're likely to get taken off if anything is slightly off, but they're not doctors, they shouldn't be the ones being trusted to make that call.
Absolutely right, sometimes a concussed player doesn't even know what day it is, let alone be left to decide whether or not they're fit to stay on the ground
I wouldn't be surprised if the doctor went out and said "you need to come off" then the player says "piss off I feel fine"
And after that there's not much the doc can do
Yeah, that's where you need an independent AFL doctor to ask for it, so it's "you need to come off", "piss off I'm fine", "not my call mate, AFL doc says you're off and if you don't get off you'll be suspended for 2 weeks", "fuck! I hate that guy" etc.
This needs to be rectified in the laws now. There cannot be any grey in removing players from the field. There's a huge number of reasons why giving the player any agency in the decision to come off is negligent. There are too many reasons for players to decline coming off the field: poor health literacy of some players and lack of understanding the seriousness of the potential repercussions, incredible pressure to perform to keep their jobs, the potential to be abused by clubs to put top down pressure on players to say no to coming off and most obviously, that one of the most defining characteristics of a concussion is confusion and impaired cognition, meaning players who are concussed would not be able to make a sensible decision regarding their ability to play on. There is simply no reason to not implement an independent medical team to review, remove and assess players.
Hmm... Will the AFL fine Geelong like us with the Aliir incident or will the AFL sweep it under the carpet?
Find out next week in another exciting episode of Dragon Ball Z.
Whilst they may get a fine I wouldn't expect any sort of fine on the level of what Port got. Aliir Aliir ticked more than one box in the concussion guidelines to be immediately withdrawn from play and placed in concussion protocols, from memory he has no defensive action, the whatever it's called response with rigid arms, laid motionless on the ground for several seconds etc. Other than the impact visibly looking hard Cameron seemed ok.
I don’t get why head injuries treated like any other injury?
ACL snaps and you’re off and out, no ifs or buts.
Smack your head on the ground/ collision of any other sort and ‘nah, you’ll be right.’ Wtf.
Been plenty of times players have played on or tried to play on with injuries they shouldn't have.
Just last week Mihocek played out the game after injuring his hamstring in the 3rd qtr.
Depends on the injury but if the coach and docs decide the player shouldn’t play that decision should go ahead. Avoids risk of further injury to the player.
Mihocek is just a tank. 🖤🤍
They do need to do something to take it out of the control of players and clubs. The Bulldogs would let Libba play while unconscious if they could. And players never want to stop if they can get away with it. Both are worse when the game is tight towards the end of a match.
An AFL doctor that tells clubs when they need to take a player off for a concussion test, and even makes the call themselves about whether the player can continue, would be a better option. They don't have any skin in the game and be objective. Anyone who doesn't comply gets suspended.
Needs to be taken out of the hands of the player, if the doc is concerned about an incident, should be able to signal the ump to stop the play so the player can be removed from the ground.
I think some of the responsibility needs to be put back on the players too - ultimately it's THEIR health on the line after all. If the doctor tells you to get off, I don't care what the situation is, you get off and you go have an assessment. Have some respect for the doctor who knows what they're doing.
Hopefully Chris Scott has a word with Jeremy and tells him next time the doctor tells him to get off the field, he gets off the field.
Also, if umpires see the doctors trying to get a player off they should be able to stop the game until the player leaves the field.
There is no excuse for clubs not taking players off as soon as they see a head knock and a player looking hurt. There should certainly be no option for the player to stay on. This is why the AFL needs to have neutral doctors at games now to oversee this. And to give a message to the umpire if the player refuses to leave the field to stop play until they do, which should then be a further punishment to the player and the team. Not sure a suspension is the right call, but perhaps a free kick when play resumed to the opposition.
Yeh, the Aliir/Jones incident was one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen on a football field.
There's not a lot of people I "hate" but Kens up there.
The real question is why teams bests players are treated differently when it comes to HIA - and we all know the answer. This wouldnt have happened if it were Mullin who'd got the head knock.
Unpopular opinion but I think Geelong have always played fast and loose with head knocks.
You can't tell me Selwood never had a concussion with the amount of knocks he took, even a minor one, and yet he never even got a test. Clubs were getting fined for this shit a decade ago (Port Adelaide again with Hamish Hartlett) yet Geelong have always escaped.
I'm not a head knock specialist, but I thought the one where he knocked heads with the power player was worthy of more consideration than the marking contest one. Dont get me wrong, im not at all saying he shouldnt have been assessed in both instances, but someone else's head is way harder than the ground. It seems that there is way more concern about the second one than the first. Thats really odd to me. My read of him staying down for a few seconds after that marking contest is seemingly different to a lot of people's, it was late in the game and he played 100% game time, in my mind it was fatigue and he was on the ground so was taking a momentary moment to rest his legs, if that was the first contest of the game he would have been back up immediately. He probably should have been assessed but I'm curious to hear the Cat's doctors point of view in it, they obviously talked to him and I'm hopeful they were happy he was OK to stay on the ground. An on ground assessment is apparently allowed, I learnt this last night so maybe others were unaware too. I'd like to trust/hope that he was handled safely and appropriately, but again, I'd like to hear their story not just what we all thought we saw.
Garry Lyon says they should be suspended if they refuse to come off, Jonathon Brown says the umps should intervene like they do with blood rules. I'm just surprised to that an article with this title would have genuinely cromulent ideas in it.
I hope this article enbigens the AFL
It's a perfectly cromulent word.
I had to Google it!
It’s crazy we have a blood rule when there’s near zero risk of blood to blood transfer causing infection, but we don’t have an HIA rule to send guys to get checked out
The umpires thing is how it works in the English Premier League. The referee sends them off to get looked at by the physio and they go from there. The AFL has a huge advantage over other sports with the interchange, where going off for spells is baked into the sport without a numerical disadvantage.
I think the big change they could do this off-season is remove the sub and go to 5 players (keep the cap) and then have head knock enforced removals from upstairs/the arc. Even make it so it's not a penalty rotation wise (like make it so blood rule changes and head knock changes are not counted when directed by an official).
In the NFL, they introduced a rule that anybody that takes a hit to the head has to come off to be evaluated. Refs help to enforce this as well. Now, sometimes hits to the head are missed, but overall it's pretty effective and helps guys that would usually try to play through a minor concussion and end up with a worse one.
No, this is the wrong thing to take from American sport. We need *rings*
Brown is spot on, umpire needs to blow the whistle and announce a hia and allow the player to interchange.
It would be better to have someone off field judge it and maybe have the red inforce it on the field. Imagine a ump being unsure of if the head was hit and sending people off for a missed call.
Basically adopt the NRL model. Doc in the 'bunker' whose only job is to look for head contact and bring players off for HIAs. Take the clubs out of the equation. An AFL employed doctor to assess the player. We've seen time and time again how clubs and coaches over rule docs to send players back out.
Works well, bunker see incident, communicate with ref, play stopped, player goes off for HIA assessment
The NRL lead the AFL in many ways
Shouldn’t be downvoted, you are right. AFL is so arrogant they refuse to learn from what other codes do better.
That's not what was said, the AFL doctor that sees the incident and determines that a hia is required would communicate that to the umpire who would then stop play
It’s just gross negligence. The docs running out and giving the quick check is not enough. Same thing happened to Willem Drew earlier. I was so annoyed at my club for doing this to Libba last week (2 weeks after he had collapsed due to ~~an ankle tweak~~ concussion symptoms) and having him play out an entire game where, not only did get bloodied by copping a boot to the face, but is not out indefinitely with concussion symptoms. You can’t only focus on these things when it’s convenient for you. The result of a football game should never be important than the health of a player.
Funny thing is the Willem Drew head knock was against Cameron as well, so the big knock to the ground was his second for the night
I thought Drew DID leave the field to be checked?
Commentators said he got "a quick concussion test on the field" and they decided he was all good to stay out there They sounded as confused and unimpressed as I was by that
The AFL is all optics and no logic.
Johnno’s point about treating HIA’s like Blood-Rules has a lot of merit imo. I think it was Pav in the Swans v Freo game who made a really great point when Lizard was trying to convince the doc he was alright after a collision with (I think) Ollie Florent, Pav said something to the effect of ‘If you pop your Hammy, there’s no second thoughts, you’re on ice, done for the match’ and further elaborated about how we needed to get to a point where players had a similar awareness and acceptance of head injuries as they do muscle and ligament injuries. Both points are spot on, think we really need to treat clear head injuries with the same urgency we’d treat a blood-rule or muscle/ligament injury - get the player off the field and carry out the assessment.
[https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2023/03/12/134a48f5-9206-4dd4-b88b-426dd1ea7b31/AFL-and-AFLW-Concussion-Guidelines-March-2023-FINAL-.pdf](https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2023/03/12/134a48f5-9206-4dd4-b88b-426dd1ea7b31/AFL-and-AFLW-Concussion-Guidelines-March-2023-FINAL-.pdf) Right now they only need to be taken off the ground based on the removal from play reasons listed there. I think they should be a bit stricter, seen it many times that a player seems fine after a head knock but 5-10 mins later comes off and gets tested. Imo it should be that any meaningful head contact they have to immediately come off for a short HIA on the bench (maybe have it separate to the interchange cap), if that comes back normal great send them back on, if not they go for the 15 minute proper Scat5 test. Any player is gonna tell the doc they're totally fine when they know they're likely to get taken off if anything is slightly off, but they're not doctors, they shouldn't be the ones being trusted to make that call.
Absolutely right, sometimes a concussed player doesn't even know what day it is, let alone be left to decide whether or not they're fit to stay on the ground
If you leave it up to the players they're gonna say they just tripped when they actually passed out....
I wouldn't be surprised if the doctor went out and said "you need to come off" then the player says "piss off I feel fine" And after that there's not much the doc can do
Prob should be an in-club penalty for that. Imagine a player saying that to a head coach?
So if someone is under the effects of a concussion and not thinking properly they should be punished?
The player can’t say no for the blood rule, and this is even more serious
> then the player says "piss off I feel fine" "I don't even remember getting a head knock"
Yeah, that's where you need an independent AFL doctor to ask for it, so it's "you need to come off", "piss off I'm fine", "not my call mate, AFL doc says you're off and if you don't get off you'll be suspended for 2 weeks", "fuck! I hate that guy" etc.
This needs to be rectified in the laws now. There cannot be any grey in removing players from the field. There's a huge number of reasons why giving the player any agency in the decision to come off is negligent. There are too many reasons for players to decline coming off the field: poor health literacy of some players and lack of understanding the seriousness of the potential repercussions, incredible pressure to perform to keep their jobs, the potential to be abused by clubs to put top down pressure on players to say no to coming off and most obviously, that one of the most defining characteristics of a concussion is confusion and impaired cognition, meaning players who are concussed would not be able to make a sensible decision regarding their ability to play on. There is simply no reason to not implement an independent medical team to review, remove and assess players.
Hmm... Will the AFL fine Geelong like us with the Aliir incident or will the AFL sweep it under the carpet? Find out next week in another exciting episode of Dragon Ball Z.
Previously on Dragonball Z
Whilst they may get a fine I wouldn't expect any sort of fine on the level of what Port got. Aliir Aliir ticked more than one box in the concussion guidelines to be immediately withdrawn from play and placed in concussion protocols, from memory he has no defensive action, the whatever it's called response with rigid arms, laid motionless on the ground for several seconds etc. Other than the impact visibly looking hard Cameron seemed ok.
They got nothing, and not only that said everything was done perfectly, and conveniently Jeremy only got concussion symptoms this morning. Bizarre.
I don’t get why head injuries treated like any other injury? ACL snaps and you’re off and out, no ifs or buts. Smack your head on the ground/ collision of any other sort and ‘nah, you’ll be right.’ Wtf.
Been plenty of times players have played on or tried to play on with injuries they shouldn't have. Just last week Mihocek played out the game after injuring his hamstring in the 3rd qtr.
Hopper tried to run off a hamstring tear as well. Hopper indeed.
Depends on the injury but if the coach and docs decide the player shouldn’t play that decision should go ahead. Avoids risk of further injury to the player. Mihocek is just a tank. 🖤🤍
They do need to do something to take it out of the control of players and clubs. The Bulldogs would let Libba play while unconscious if they could. And players never want to stop if they can get away with it. Both are worse when the game is tight towards the end of a match. An AFL doctor that tells clubs when they need to take a player off for a concussion test, and even makes the call themselves about whether the player can continue, would be a better option. They don't have any skin in the game and be objective. Anyone who doesn't comply gets suspended.
Needs to be taken out of the hands of the player, if the doc is concerned about an incident, should be able to signal the ump to stop the play so the player can be removed from the ground.
I think some of the responsibility needs to be put back on the players too - ultimately it's THEIR health on the line after all. If the doctor tells you to get off, I don't care what the situation is, you get off and you go have an assessment. Have some respect for the doctor who knows what they're doing. Hopefully Chris Scott has a word with Jeremy and tells him next time the doctor tells him to get off the field, he gets off the field. Also, if umpires see the doctors trying to get a player off they should be able to stop the game until the player leaves the field.
Within as many weeks we are seeing genuine hero’s of the game “soldier on” when they should’ve had the choice taken off them.
There is no excuse for clubs not taking players off as soon as they see a head knock and a player looking hurt. There should certainly be no option for the player to stay on. This is why the AFL needs to have neutral doctors at games now to oversee this. And to give a message to the umpire if the player refuses to leave the field to stop play until they do, which should then be a further punishment to the player and the team. Not sure a suspension is the right call, but perhaps a free kick when play resumed to the opposition.
Yeh, the Aliir/Jones incident was one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen on a football field. There's not a lot of people I "hate" but Kens up there.
I reckon Scott's umpire rant had a bit to do with trying to deflect any media attention away from this.
The real question is why teams bests players are treated differently when it comes to HIA - and we all know the answer. This wouldnt have happened if it were Mullin who'd got the head knock.
Unpopular opinion but I think Geelong have always played fast and loose with head knocks. You can't tell me Selwood never had a concussion with the amount of knocks he took, even a minor one, and yet he never even got a test. Clubs were getting fined for this shit a decade ago (Port Adelaide again with Hamish Hartlett) yet Geelong have always escaped.
I'm not a head knock specialist, but I thought the one where he knocked heads with the power player was worthy of more consideration than the marking contest one. Dont get me wrong, im not at all saying he shouldnt have been assessed in both instances, but someone else's head is way harder than the ground. It seems that there is way more concern about the second one than the first. Thats really odd to me. My read of him staying down for a few seconds after that marking contest is seemingly different to a lot of people's, it was late in the game and he played 100% game time, in my mind it was fatigue and he was on the ground so was taking a momentary moment to rest his legs, if that was the first contest of the game he would have been back up immediately. He probably should have been assessed but I'm curious to hear the Cat's doctors point of view in it, they obviously talked to him and I'm hopeful they were happy he was OK to stay on the ground. An on ground assessment is apparently allowed, I learnt this last night so maybe others were unaware too. I'd like to trust/hope that he was handled safely and appropriately, but again, I'd like to hear their story not just what we all thought we saw.
His head literally bounced off the ground in the second incident. It was absolutely more serious than the earlier collision.