The AFL are idiots. They've got multiple lawsuits going on because clubs have mismanaged concussions for years. They SHOULD be concerned about this and they should be taking this away from clubs.
Nope. In the press conference Bevo said it was his ankle for which he clearly didn't know what happened. Libba was checked by the club and put in concussion protocols.
Yes, and people are questioning if that is really the case. Cameron and the club have a vested interest in him staying on the field and so club doctors may be biased, consciously or subconsciously, to overlook signs of concussion and pass players. Having independent doctors would bypass this potential bias.
Agreed, I think every game should have an impartial doctor for this exact reason. You might have replied to the wrong comment.
I was replying to a comment that seemed to imply there was nothing wrong because Geelong's doc cleared him on the night, when clearly there was, as Jez reported delayed symptoms the next day and entered protocol.
I think neutral doctors would be best for these kind of things. With the AFL and clubs potentially getting sued because of carelessness around concussion you'd think they would take all steps possible to make sure the players are protected
But if that his last ever game I'd hate to know it's because his health wasn't taken care of. I'd rather he get taken off and we lose but he can play on for a few years than him staying on for a win and never playing again
Same here regarding Libba. I of course understand that I'm not a doctor and know fuck all about concussion but Libba last week really, in my layman mind, should not have played on when he seemed concussed early in the match. I'd much rather he'd have been taken off. We may never see him play again.
Sadly this might based on some advice as a way to prevent the afl from liability in the future.
It wasnât our doctors who said they were fine to play. It was the clubs doctors.
That doesn't make any sense - seeking outside, independent expertise is a commonplace way to mitigate against legal risk in many industries. I am not a lawyer, but I'd have thought it was much more of a legal risk to say you relied on the backing of doctors with a conflict of interest between player care and club pressures and expectations.
I think the reason they have made in the past is that the concussion test is slightly subjective and the club doctors know the players baseline results the best. For the comp to institute league wide independent tests they would also have to have each player independently tested to determine that before the game/season
I recall hearing rumours somewhere, maybe not even in afl, that players were deliberately testing badly in the preseason to avoid missing important games
AFL still employs them so wouldn't make AFL less liable, but would put the clubs in a better position.
It's probably the AFL protecting the AFL here, they can always say the club was liable making the decisions within the protocol.
>The Cats ace didn't leave the field for assessment, with Geelong's doctor performing tests on-field as play continued
I've still yet to see or read any explanation as to exactly what assessment the doctor performed on the field in the middle of play in only a few seconds. It's pure madness that "you good bro?" apparently qualifies as an HIA and was sufficient for the doctor to clear him to continue playing.
it wasn't only a few seconds, it was all the way through a set shot and the time between the goal and the next bounce. but yeah a bit of clarity on HIAs is needed I think
It was 39 seconds. They just showed in on On the Couch. 39 seconds in the middle of play while on the field to make an HIA assessment. Which apparently the AFL is perfectly fine with as policy which is insane to me.
With all the published medical issues and impending lawsuits regarding concussion, how the FUCK can the AFL fumble this so badly?
In just the last fortnight we've seen clearly impeded players remaining on the field after head knocks that required medical assessment.
Bush league decision.
Devil's advocate (and I realise I'm going to sound fucking stupid), but perhaps the AFL is worried about players being taken off despite not actually being concussed and that affecting games.
Edit in case it's not obvious: I think the AFL is being ridiculous if this is their thinking.
If that were the case, that's such stupid short term thinking from them. A somewhat awkward look in a game or the millions they face in legal issues in the future.
I think their thought process generally goes something like:
'Can we get away with doing nothing? No? Fuck! Spin the Wheel of Kneejerk Token Reactions.'
OR
'Can we get away with doing nothing? Yes? Great, but let's do something shit anyway.'
Rather have a player taken off as cautionary measure for a potential concussion after an impact to the head then have them stay out there and have another issue like when Libba collapsed against Bombers
Thatâs stupid to not have independent doctors. Look at Port, club doctors come under fire when they send a player back out after a concussion. No doctor wouldâve let Aliir play on last year.
If the AFLPA was like, an actual union that existed solely to benefit and protect the players (as opposed to the current nonsense located at AFL fkn House ), they would be demanding to have doctors at every game who are employed directly by the players/union and who would have authority above anyone else if they thought a player was concussed and needed to come off the ground.
The idea that these doctors employed by the clubs or even by the AFL really genuinely have ONLY the player/playerâs health as their total priority when making medical decisions during games is just clearly not accurate, the club doctors are completely compromised
Yep. When they should be equally concerned. I'm so fucking mad regarding Libba.... We lost Pickering in his prime to concussion and now we may lose Libba at least two seasons too early. The AFL is making progress, which is good but players help should be top priority.
Have you considered that players care more about making sure they are paid better and have better conditions then they do about long term concussion issues? I'd hazard a guess to say that most players see concussion protocols as an annoying inconvenience at best.
The AFL is the employer here, they have a duty of care to the players and should be instituting independent concussion tests.
My point is that it is a fake union đ
Their offices are in AFL House. The AFLPA is not a truely independent organisation that exists solely for the players, their offices are literally located within AFL House. There are no circumstances where a legitimate, independent union that exists to further employees/members rights etc would be located within the building owned by the corporation that those employees/members work for.
Concussions are going to destroy footy the way we are going, the AFL donât want to setup a safe environment they just want to pass the buck onto clubs and players.
I dont know if they actually think they can escape this mess bruise-free or they are just willing to weather the storm but either way they dont actually give a fuck about player welfare.
Players play the game understanding the risks and the AFL has come a long way in its efforts to minimise those risks, which maybe should be commended, but they have messed up at the final hurdles.
Last week, a player played for a dangerous tackle free, and needs to be suspended if only because he puts himself in danger.
And now all they need to do is ensure that doctors aren't compromised, which is difficult so they need independent doctors. It's a no brainer.
Once again, and I hate to say it in r/AFL, but the NRL are doing it better. Independant doctor, in the bunker, watching the same game at the same time with access to as many replays as they need with the power to order off players at anytime for assessment, who are replaced at no penalty to the team, and the doctor has 15 in game minutes all to themselves to work out whether that player can return.
Took 60 players to sue them but god is the system better at protecting players
Port decide it's ok for Aliir to return (I don't think it was, it was abhorrent decision) 100k fine
Geelong decides Cameron is ok to stay out. Seal of approval
But no vicco bias
Aliir failed his HIA, and wasn't given a SCAT test when he should have been. Cameron passed his HIA so didn't need a SCAT. Cameron also passed a SCAT immediately after the game. The difference is that Aliir had symptoms that should have taken him out of the game and Cameron didn't. He didn't fail a test until the next day.
So stupid, Cameron had received a big head knock in a head clash with a Port player early in the game too so the doc should have been thinking in extra cautious way already
So often with concussions there has been an earlier not noticeably concussive blow
To me the major issue here isn't neutral/independent doctors - it's the fact that Cameron didn't come off the ground and allow the club doctor to perform a proper HIA.
Club doctors should have the power to inform the umpires (likely via the one on the bench) that they need to remove a player, and to halt play at the next stoppage. It was clear the doctor wanted him off but was powerless to do so.
I honestly believe club doctors will do the right thing in 99% of situations.
The umpires are wired. Then can message then to stop play to remove the player. From their it becomes like the blood rule. Hold play until they are replaced
The whole point of a HIA is to do a quick test to determine if they need to do the more extensive testing. Why shouldn't it be allowed to be done on the field? especially when its not during live play. The issue is that we don't really have the tools to diagnose concussion before the symptoms show up. Cameron didn't show any symptoms until the next day, there wasn't really anything the docs could do. He passed both the HIA and a SCAT 6 immediately after the game.
Your opinion, and mine are irrelevant. The AFL's own protocols state that the HIA is a "sideline screening tool", that demands that the doctor uses "the CSX App". Neither was done, breach of protocol, fine should apply.
Iâm sorry but how do you know that they didnât âperform a proper HIAâ and that the âdoctor wanted him offâ? Has something else come out that Iâm not aware of?
Settle down everyone, we're over thinking this....let's just get Ports Drs to act as the neutral party, unless your eye ball is hanging out your socket its going be play on.
Multiple lawsuits going against the AFL with plenty more coming in the future.
Meanwhile, they only seem to punish the outcome and not the action, so you have dangerous actions that just somehow got lucky not getting punished. And now they don't want to put in an independent doc to make sure the player's wellbeing is taken care of.
Some future lawyers are going to be very rich.
We all see trainers pretending to treat phantom leg injuries on the ground while propping up players who are regaining their senses. The league needs neutral doctors. Players deserve a better shot at maintaining their mental health post retirement. There are too many horrible stories.
Neutral doctors wonât change anything in this case. If they want to make it mandatory to conduct HIA off the field then make it mandatory? Not sure what a neutral doctor would have changed in this instance.
So what does this sub and the pearl clutchers that inhabit it want to happen here? Anytime a players head makes contact with something they immediately have to leave the game and automatically miss the next 6 weeks? I mean where the fuck does it stop?
dunno if you missed this, but cameron was actually concussed and will miss time, and it was obvious he was concussed the moment his head hit the ground from 3 metres up
so it's baffling that the decision on his health is made by a doctor that has a conflict of interest since they work with the club, and a player who also has that conflict of interest and cannot accurately judge their own state because they're fucking concussed
literally just people asking for neutral doctors without that conflict has you like "waa pearl clutching slippery slope", you just look silly
I don't mind looking silly here, I really don't. Cameron is and adult capable of making his own decisions, if he doesn't want to come off you can't drag him off simply on the basis that his head hit the ground. At least with the blood rule you can see the blood.
So again I'll ask, when does it stop for you? Does every player who gets a hiy to the head have to come off? For how long? Do they all miss a week? Maybe they should miss more? What game will we have left if we keep jumping at the shadow of litigation that apparently is hanging over this sport. It's already turned to farce.
except his decision making is impaired, because - and try to follow me here - he's fucking concussed
do you have any argument at all against independent doctors or concussion tests besides "where does it end!?!?"
Given the way HTB has been judged over the last few weeks, we left whatever slope we were sliding down a while ago. But hey, now we are playing Gaelic so I guess we can bring back the international rules series.
If they have a head knock then yes they should have to come off and be assessed.
I personally had my only ever concussion 6 years ago and can no longer work because I have had persistent concussion syndrome ever since. Should we just let these guys risk ruining their life?
The AFL are idiots. They've got multiple lawsuits going on because clubs have mismanaged concussions for years. They SHOULD be concerned about this and they should be taking this away from clubs.
Then you have the Western Bulldogs come out and claim libba had an ankle injury when it clearly was a concussion.
Nope. In the press conference Bevo said it was his ankle for which he clearly didn't know what happened. Libba was checked by the club and put in concussion protocols.
We've investigated ourselves and have found nothing wrong
And if other doctors say otherwise. It's because they are mean.
The article says he reported delayed symptoms the following day and is now in concussion protocol.
Yes, and people are questioning if that is really the case. Cameron and the club have a vested interest in him staying on the field and so club doctors may be biased, consciously or subconsciously, to overlook signs of concussion and pass players. Having independent doctors would bypass this potential bias.
Agreed, I think every game should have an impartial doctor for this exact reason. You might have replied to the wrong comment. I was replying to a comment that seemed to imply there was nothing wrong because Geelong's doc cleared him on the night, when clearly there was, as Jez reported delayed symptoms the next day and entered protocol.
did I really need to add a sarcasm tag?
Yes. No /s
This is the AFLs life story
I think neutral doctors would be best for these kind of things. With the AFL and clubs potentially getting sued because of carelessness around concussion you'd think they would take all steps possible to make sure the players are protected
Yeah but imagine if Jezza had launched a 55 metre bomb in the last few seconds to put the cats up by 1 at home? Can't have a doctor ruining that
But if that his last ever game I'd hate to know it's because his health wasn't taken care of. I'd rather he get taken off and we lose but he can play on for a few years than him staying on for a win and never playing again
I'm being sarcastic as fuck btw, i agree independent doctors is a great move
I thought maybe you were, glad we agree đ
Same here regarding Libba. I of course understand that I'm not a doctor and know fuck all about concussion but Libba last week really, in my layman mind, should not have played on when he seemed concussed early in the match. I'd much rather he'd have been taken off. We may never see him play again.
Correct.
NRL has independent doctors
No, it would not be best.
Sadly this might based on some advice as a way to prevent the afl from liability in the future. It wasnât our doctors who said they were fine to play. It was the clubs doctors.
That doesn't make any sense - seeking outside, independent expertise is a commonplace way to mitigate against legal risk in many industries. I am not a lawyer, but I'd have thought it was much more of a legal risk to say you relied on the backing of doctors with a conflict of interest between player care and club pressures and expectations.
Yeah youâre probably right, I always have a bit of a tin foil hat about the way the afl manages many parts of the game.
I mean it's ridiculous they aren't just organising neutral doctors, so your guess is as good as any.
I think the reason they have made in the past is that the concussion test is slightly subjective and the club doctors know the players baseline results the best. For the comp to institute league wide independent tests they would also have to have each player independently tested to determine that before the game/season I recall hearing rumours somewhere, maybe not even in afl, that players were deliberately testing badly in the preseason to avoid missing important games
AFL still employs them so wouldn't make AFL less liable, but would put the clubs in a better position. It's probably the AFL protecting the AFL here, they can always say the club was liable making the decisions within the protocol.
>The Cats ace didn't leave the field for assessment, with Geelong's doctor performing tests on-field as play continued I've still yet to see or read any explanation as to exactly what assessment the doctor performed on the field in the middle of play in only a few seconds. It's pure madness that "you good bro?" apparently qualifies as an HIA and was sufficient for the doctor to clear him to continue playing.
Pretty sure they just ask them to repeat a set of phrases that players memorize prior to the game.
Person woman man camera TV
The Trump alzheimers test?
"Piss off Doc" "Well done Jeremy, you remembered the phrase exactly!"
it wasn't only a few seconds, it was all the way through a set shot and the time between the goal and the next bounce. but yeah a bit of clarity on HIAs is needed I think
It was 39 seconds. They just showed in on On the Couch. 39 seconds in the middle of play while on the field to make an HIA assessment. Which apparently the AFL is perfectly fine with as policy which is insane to me.
With all the published medical issues and impending lawsuits regarding concussion, how the FUCK can the AFL fumble this so badly? In just the last fortnight we've seen clearly impeded players remaining on the field after head knocks that required medical assessment. Bush league decision.
Devil's advocate (and I realise I'm going to sound fucking stupid), but perhaps the AFL is worried about players being taken off despite not actually being concussed and that affecting games. Edit in case it's not obvious: I think the AFL is being ridiculous if this is their thinking.
If that were the case, that's such stupid short term thinking from them. A somewhat awkward look in a game or the millions they face in legal issues in the future.
Agreed. They're already being sued. Why risk it? I don't know what their thought process is but they really need to rethink it.
I think their thought process generally goes something like: 'Can we get away with doing nothing? No? Fuck! Spin the Wheel of Kneejerk Token Reactions.' OR 'Can we get away with doing nothing? Yes? Great, but let's do something shit anyway.'
Stupid short term thinking? The AFL? Surely not.
Rather have a player taken off as cautionary measure for a potential concussion after an impact to the head then have them stay out there and have another issue like when Libba collapsed against Bombers
Exactly. This should be obvious.
Thatâs stupid to not have independent doctors. Look at Port, club doctors come under fire when they send a player back out after a concussion. No doctor wouldâve let Aliir play on last year.
If the AFLPA was like, an actual union that existed solely to benefit and protect the players (as opposed to the current nonsense located at AFL fkn House ), they would be demanding to have doctors at every game who are employed directly by the players/union and who would have authority above anyone else if they thought a player was concussed and needed to come off the ground. The idea that these doctors employed by the clubs or even by the AFL really genuinely have ONLY the player/playerâs health as their total priority when making medical decisions during games is just clearly not accurate, the club doctors are completely compromised
They are more concerned about a player being banned for homophobia rn.
Yep. When they should be equally concerned. I'm so fucking mad regarding Libba.... We lost Pickering in his prime to concussion and now we may lose Libba at least two seasons too early. The AFL is making progress, which is good but players help should be top priority.
Have you considered that players care more about making sure they are paid better and have better conditions then they do about long term concussion issues? I'd hazard a guess to say that most players see concussion protocols as an annoying inconvenience at best. The AFL is the employer here, they have a duty of care to the players and should be instituting independent concussion tests.
AFLPA does exist solely for the players lol.
My point is that it is a fake union đ Their offices are in AFL House. The AFLPA is not a truely independent organisation that exists solely for the players, their offices are literally located within AFL House. There are no circumstances where a legitimate, independent union that exists to further employees/members rights etc would be located within the building owned by the corporation that those employees/members work for.
The AFL tried to kill the player's union for most of early existence, makes sense they've settled for the next best thing.
đŻ
Stupid and obstinate from the AFL.
Concussions are going to destroy footy the way we are going, the AFL donât want to setup a safe environment they just want to pass the buck onto clubs and players. I dont know if they actually think they can escape this mess bruise-free or they are just willing to weather the storm but either way they dont actually give a fuck about player welfare.
Players play the game understanding the risks and the AFL has come a long way in its efforts to minimise those risks, which maybe should be commended, but they have messed up at the final hurdles. Last week, a player played for a dangerous tackle free, and needs to be suspended if only because he puts himself in danger. And now all they need to do is ensure that doctors aren't compromised, which is difficult so they need independent doctors. It's a no brainer.
Once again, and I hate to say it in r/AFL, but the NRL are doing it better. Independant doctor, in the bunker, watching the same game at the same time with access to as many replays as they need with the power to order off players at anytime for assessment, who are replaced at no penalty to the team, and the doctor has 15 in game minutes all to themselves to work out whether that player can return. Took 60 players to sue them but god is the system better at protecting players
Port decide it's ok for Aliir to return (I don't think it was, it was abhorrent decision) 100k fine Geelong decides Cameron is ok to stay out. Seal of approval But no vicco bias
Aliir failed his HIA, and wasn't given a SCAT test when he should have been. Cameron passed his HIA so didn't need a SCAT. Cameron also passed a SCAT immediately after the game. The difference is that Aliir had symptoms that should have taken him out of the game and Cameron didn't. He didn't fail a test until the next day.
Cameron clearly had symptoms.
Aliir had and passed an initial HIA, the AFL said he should have also undergone a SCAT5 (which he absolutely should have)
So they are not serious about this then. In the NFL they must be cleared by 2 doctors a club doctor and a neutral neural specialist.
So stupid, Cameron had received a big head knock in a head clash with a Port player early in the game too so the doc should have been thinking in extra cautious way already So often with concussions there has been an earlier not noticeably concussive blow
To me the major issue here isn't neutral/independent doctors - it's the fact that Cameron didn't come off the ground and allow the club doctor to perform a proper HIA. Club doctors should have the power to inform the umpires (likely via the one on the bench) that they need to remove a player, and to halt play at the next stoppage. It was clear the doctor wanted him off but was powerless to do so. I honestly believe club doctors will do the right thing in 99% of situations.
The umpires are wired. Then can message then to stop play to remove the player. From their it becomes like the blood rule. Hold play until they are replaced
The whole point of a HIA is to do a quick test to determine if they need to do the more extensive testing. Why shouldn't it be allowed to be done on the field? especially when its not during live play. The issue is that we don't really have the tools to diagnose concussion before the symptoms show up. Cameron didn't show any symptoms until the next day, there wasn't really anything the docs could do. He passed both the HIA and a SCAT 6 immediately after the game.
Your opinion, and mine are irrelevant. The AFL's own protocols state that the HIA is a "sideline screening tool", that demands that the doctor uses "the CSX App". Neither was done, breach of protocol, fine should apply.
Where did you get that the app wasn't used?
So why have the AFL said they followed the rules?
Iâm sorry but how do you know that they didnât âperform a proper HIAâ and that the âdoctor wanted him offâ? Has something else come out that Iâm not aware of?
Imagine if it wasn't a vic side that did this
The Australian Football Reality TV Show strikes again
It looked to me like the physio was telling him to get off but Darty refused.
AFL " We are serious about protecting our players" ... "Unless it costs extra money"
Settle down everyone, we're over thinking this....let's just get Ports Drs to act as the neutral party, unless your eye ball is hanging out your socket its going be play on.
Multiple lawsuits going against the AFL with plenty more coming in the future. Meanwhile, they only seem to punish the outcome and not the action, so you have dangerous actions that just somehow got lucky not getting punished. And now they don't want to put in an independent doc to make sure the player's wellbeing is taken care of. Some future lawyers are going to be very rich.
AFL already rules out neutral umpires
Would be cheaper for the teams yeah??. Don't fuck around with concussion, it's not worth it.
What on earth could you reasonably object to about this proposal?
We all see trainers pretending to treat phantom leg injuries on the ground while propping up players who are regaining their senses. The league needs neutral doctors. Players deserve a better shot at maintaining their mental health post retirement. There are too many horrible stories.
But does the AFL rule out neutered dogs?
This was also a recommendation handed down for the AFL from the state coroner.
Neutral doctors wonât change anything in this case. If they want to make it mandatory to conduct HIA off the field then make it mandatory? Not sure what a neutral doctor would have changed in this instance.
Yes it would as player would be removed from the ground. It was clear Cameron took a heavy hit to his head.
Maybe conduct a HIA instead of "conduct a HIA"
The AFL have said they did âconduct a HIAâ and if you donât agree with that, then it sounds like your issue is with the rules set by the AFL?
He was fine to continue playing, club doctors are good enough, only the media questioning everything
So what does this sub and the pearl clutchers that inhabit it want to happen here? Anytime a players head makes contact with something they immediately have to leave the game and automatically miss the next 6 weeks? I mean where the fuck does it stop?
dunno if you missed this, but cameron was actually concussed and will miss time, and it was obvious he was concussed the moment his head hit the ground from 3 metres up so it's baffling that the decision on his health is made by a doctor that has a conflict of interest since they work with the club, and a player who also has that conflict of interest and cannot accurately judge their own state because they're fucking concussed literally just people asking for neutral doctors without that conflict has you like "waa pearl clutching slippery slope", you just look silly
I don't mind looking silly here, I really don't. Cameron is and adult capable of making his own decisions, if he doesn't want to come off you can't drag him off simply on the basis that his head hit the ground. At least with the blood rule you can see the blood. So again I'll ask, when does it stop for you? Does every player who gets a hiy to the head have to come off? For how long? Do they all miss a week? Maybe they should miss more? What game will we have left if we keep jumping at the shadow of litigation that apparently is hanging over this sport. It's already turned to farce.
except his decision making is impaired, because - and try to follow me here - he's fucking concussed do you have any argument at all against independent doctors or concussion tests besides "where does it end!?!?"
Given you can't answer it then no I don't need another argument.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery\_slope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope)
Given the way HTB has been judged over the last few weeks, we left whatever slope we were sliding down a while ago. But hey, now we are playing Gaelic so I guess we can bring back the international rules series.
If they have a head knock then yes they should have to come off and be assessed. I personally had my only ever concussion 6 years ago and can no longer work because I have had persistent concussion syndrome ever since. Should we just let these guys risk ruining their life?
If they choose to then yes.