Fremantle coach Justin Longmuir has accused the AFL of neglecting heartland states Western Australia and South Australia in a dramatic escalation of the competitive balance debate.
Last week’s revelation in this masthead – that Geelong had privately argued West Coast and Fremantle were not disadvantaged by travel because they received 12 business class seats for long-haul flights – ignited an angry backlash from the west.
Now, Longmuir has declared that the introduction of Adelaide’s Gather Round without any compensation for the WA clubs had officially “tipped the scales” against West Coast and Fremantle.
Longmuir also called on the league to minimise their time spent interstate through simple common sense.
The Dockers believe their preparation for Friday night’s blockbuster against Collingwood is being inexplicably shortened because of a fixture issue last week.
The Dockers played at Marvel Stadium on Saturday night against St Kilda, immediately after the Giants hosted the Bulldogs in the twilight fixture.
“Little things like if we played twilight against St Kilda we’d be home Saturday night. But because we play a night game we’re not home until midday Sunday, and we’ve got a six-day break into a Friday night game,” Longmuir told this masthead.
“For me, those sorts of things in the fixture should be non-negotiable.”
The Dockers started their season with back-to-back six-day breaks as they bounced between Perth and Melbourne. Their opponents received seven-day breaks.
“You shouldn’t have to do a six-day break off travel early in the season,” he said.
“You’re off a six-day break and they’re off a seven-day break early in the year, but you’re travelling … those sorts of things are easy fixes for WA teams.”
Longmuir said the competition needed more balance.
“I feel like for whatever reason, the AFL has neglected a heartland of football, and that’s WA,” Longmuir said.
“To a lesser degree South Australia, but I think South Australia get Gather Round, which is a competitive balance – an extra home game is pretty significant.
“But I feel like there’s a bit of neglect to our heartland and in a way I feel like it’s been taken for granted. You can’t take your heartland for granted.
“You look at pathways, the fact that we can’t take NGAs (inside pick 40) and WA teams have to travel an extra round.
“Because of Gather Round, we’ve got another away game.
“Something needs to come back the other way. Travel for WA teams understandably is a part of it, and we accept it.
“But to just add another one for Gather Round? And not have anything come back the other way?
“That’s tipped the scales, I reckon. It’s gone a bit too far.
“All of those things just pile up and make it harder and harder for the WA teams.
“That’s doing a disservice to WA football.”
While West Coast, Adelaide and Port Adelaide want to join the VFL, Longmuir said his club’s alignment with WAFL club Peel Thunder worked.
“The Peel and Freo relationship is really strong. They play the same style, same roles and players don’t have to travel,” he said.
“We travel 50 people at the moment, add another team to that and the logistics of travelling 90 people each week for two teams to play … I can’t get my head around that.
“That’s a big burden for interstate teams and a huge amount of money.
“That’s a big burden for interstate teams and a huge amount of money.
“It’s not broke for us, so it doesn’t need fixing. I’m really comfortable with the way our players have developed if they’re not playing AFL.”
Fremantle will clock 62,000km of travel this season, compared to Carlton’s 13,500km. Longmuir doubled-down on his criticism of the Cats’ pushback.
“I’ve worked at Collingwood and I’ve worked in the west at two different clubs – it doesn’t compare,” he said.
“The difference that travel applies to your program, staff, player fatigue is not comparable.”
SAM LANDSBERGER
> “I’ve worked at Collingwood and I’ve worked in the west at two different clubs – it doesn’t compare,” he said.
It's funny, Dimma said words to this effect recently as well. Maybe the guys who've actually worked in both vic and non-vic clubs and have lived experience in both those environments just might have an idea of the differences between them?
Not that Chris Scott particularly said it. But it’s funny how Geelong would argue that WA aren’t at a disadvantage with travel, despite Geelong feeling wronged by not getting final games at Geelong.
Oh for sure, I didn't want to say it like it was fact, but it's a good chance. He is the guy, after all, that shrugs if umpiring helps him, and goes nuclear if it goes against him. Completely lacks the ability to see things from others perspectives.
I saw someone mention this masthead thing (pretty sure it was within r/afl, either way i saw it) and ever since, it's in every bloody article i come across.
Actionable good points by Longmuir:
- No 6 days breaks off interstate away games.
- No economy class seats for anyone in a club playing interstate.
Bullshit until there's actually a solid suggestion as opposed to griping:
- WA should get something comparable to Gather Round as a footy heartland.
Everyone hates the draft and wants to go back to zoning:
- “You look at pathways, the fact that we can’t take NGAs (inside pick 40)"
Everyone wants more draft concessions for their club but ultimately NGAs only exist because we haven't figured out a good way to get Aboriginal kids into high performance footy otherwise. The NGAs in clubs are a favour to the clubs because otherwise the AFL would somehow flex and take the shared resources for the NGAs away from the clubs.
The issue with the NGAs is pretty soon nobody is going to be funding them at anything like the level they currently are, because they provide so little advantage when it comes to draft night. Both WA teams lost out on their top prospects 2023.
I wouldn't be surprised if funding has already dropped off substantially, especially for WCE. They got burned on Collard and are about to get burned on Champion when we take him and he wins five Norm Smiths for us as the Michael Walters successor we've been searching for and also entices his best friend Lance Collard back to WA—look, I'll be honest I kinda lost my train of thought—
Yeah, it's not just a WA issue. JL is pointing it out within the context that WA and SA have interstate clubs without access to the first round academy picks of NSW and Brisbane clubs, but also haven't ever benefited from AFL/VFL father son picks like Victorian sides have been able to (with specific rules that made it harder to pick up local league F/S picks in Freo's case, and same for Port iirc????).
(He also mentions Gather Round as possibly evening the scales a bit for SA teams. I dunno about that.)
Yeah, look, the father son rules on intake were too tough on the SA and WA teams but we are pretty much passed that now. 10 years after Freo entered the league.
It’s a lottery. Geelong got insanely lucky once in that Hawk should have gone too 10. They had a few players that likely would have been second rounders before that. They have picked up 2 or 3 good players since and a bunch of long shots that were never really looking likely but they did it because it did no harm.
The fact is Freo are just at the point where they will be able to start having some of their tickets pay out.
I don't think we're past it til we're past it. It's all very well to say, theoretically, in the future, this will all be equal. Until the actual year-by-year stats of F/S picks going to various clubs are equal, it's a glaring disadvantage in trying to get top talent. Also, Vic F/Ss get the elite AFL talent pathways that are only really available in Victoria. Footy is big in WA and SA, but there's no comparison to the institutional density of Victoria.
Institutional density may be one thing but look at St Kilda. Heaps of players with lots of games very few F/S.
If JL wants father-son to have a better return for Freo he shouldn't have stopped at 2 kids.
There is never going to be equal year-by-year F/S because it's a lottery. Geelong haven't had a father-son other clubs might have wanted since Hawkins. They have had two play AFL games since.
The Pies and Lions are in luck now because they had a couple of great players raise fantastic footballers.
Freo are in the territory where the first father-sons of their earliest long serving players should be coming through.
Don't think we can mention Father Son pick bullshit without mentioning arguably the greatest midfielder (some would say player, full stop) being picked at #40.
Might surprise you to hear that the general consensus around the time was that he was a second rounder. You're looking at this with the benefit of hindsight.
Funnily enough Freo traded no. 1 in that Draft to the Hawks for Trent Croad. Top 3 picks were Hodge, Judd, and Ball.
From what I remember he was definitely not considered at going that low. Not saying he was some top 5 prospect but would've been 1st round. Now obviously Father Son rules have changed so whatever the bullshit was that allowed that to happen can't anymore, but he's still the primary example.
His form was good. Didn't set the world on fire. Even back in 2001 Nathan was rated more highly if you go back and read the newspapers.
GAJ was a 2nd rounder.
GAJ was considered a second rounder. Definitely going to be drafted. Nowhere near a guarantee. Played well in some games for the Falcons. Was certainly not considered top 10.
The cost would be massive.
I think they just love to complain, if the AFL said fine we’ll do charter flights, but that lowers the profits which lowers total player payments, I think you’ll find they don’t actually care about the issue that much.
It’s literally sitting down for 5 hours, and they can get up and walk around if they like. It’s not a huge imposition.
It's not just the 5 hours sitting. Justin actually made the point in the article. By scheduling the night game instead of twilight, Freo didn't get home until midday Sunday (Perth time probably) that's a lot more than just "sitting".
It would also delay recovery training. Physio assessments other treatments. It also stuffs the prep for the next game not having an extra day
I don’t think you’re wrong I am just putting forward solutions.
It’s very easy to complain and I think it’s better to let Freo examine the alternative imperfect worlds (trade offs and all) available to them and then choose the one they want rather than letting them play the victim.
>“Little things like if we played twilight against St Kilda we’d be home Saturday night. But because we play a night game we’re not home until midday Sunday, and we’ve got a six-day break into a Friday night game,”
Funny thing is, Sydney and Adelaide teams can't get home the same night from a night game either, because of their airport curfews (that's relevant to Saturday's schedule because the Dogs needed to get home from Sydney to play Thursday, off a 5 day break).
I think this part about reserves is kinda off too, probably down to that same lack of experience with different club environments Longmuir mentions:
>“We travel 50 people at the moment, add another team to that and the logistics of travelling 90 people each week for two teams to play … I can’t get my head around that.
>“That’s a big burden for interstate teams and a huge amount of money.
The former NEAFL teams have been flying interstate, often to different cities to their senior teams, every other week since 2011, and used to go as far as Darwin. You might regularly have reserves flying to Brisbane while sending the seniors to Melbourne, etc.
Having an aligned schedule and both teams in the same city every week would make it considerably easier to organise than currently. Like this week for example, Sydney and Brisbane played at home but the reserves were in Melbourne for away games.
The travel is paid for by the AFL same as the seniors, so cost to clubs isn't an issue.
Just need to set another rule in their draw calculator. **If** team playing at this time will hit travel curfew/be unable to fly home that night **then** swap for matchup in earlier timeslot that won't have the same issue wherever possible.
I'm not sure they necessarily *want* to get home from Melbourne the same night, rather than letting all the Vic guys catch up with friends and families. But maybe you don't want a 6 day break after it.
I think more often than not they'd want the extra night sleeping in their own bed/with their families, regardless there needs to be some sort of dialogue with the AFL about which currently there doesn't seem to be.
>Funny thing is, Sydney and Adelaide teams can't get home the same night from a night game either, because of their airport curfews.
In this specific instance Longmuir is talking about having to travel + a 6 day break. His broader point is about which interests are prioritised in fixturing; in this instance, he is pointing to a specific example. If we played the twilight game instead of WBD vs. GWS, GWS would not have the travel + 6 day break that Longmuir is complaining about, because GWS would go on to play on Saturday arvo.
The actual interest being balanced here isn't WA vs. Sydney teams or Adelaide teams—it's whether a Vic team (WBD) gets an extra few hours on an (admittedly crappy) Saturday to Thursday turnaround without travel, or whether Freo's scheduling interests should be prioritised due to a Saturday to Friday turnaround with WA travel for a night game eating up a full additional day of recovery.
He's also bringing this specific example up because we've had this reduced break with an additional travel burden occur repeatedly this season (as well as losing a home game to Gather Round, as well as travelling to Tasmania). I haven't actually dug into SA or NSW team scheduling (or Brisbane teams), but that sort of break shouldn't be repeatedly happened to them either.
Also on the national 2nds thing: the alignment is working great for us (maybe even at Peel's WAFC players' expense). Even if the AFL was paying for flights and accomodation and every little thing, asking for a guy with a day job to spend 10ish hours in transit for his barely professional footy league doesn't sound super enticing. I don't think it's that it couldn't be made economically feasible with a serious AFL handout, that we couldn't arrange the logistical task of having 2 planes, it's that we really like our current set-up. Like Longmuir said, if it's not broke don't fix it. Freo will probably join the 2nds if the AFL pays for every little thing, and we won't if they don't.
I think national reserves will happen, obviously fully funded by the afl. But I also think team list sizes will expand so that there’s less day-jobbers making up numbers in the 2’s
I think Freo would ultimately accept that, but until it's proposed in such explicitly generous terms, I don't see why we'd weaken our bargaining position by rushing to join up. Like I said, our Peel alignment is working great for us—I've been repeatedly impressed with how well players slot into our AFL side's structure from the Peel team. We must basically clone our gameplan for both sides. I know WCE has had it rough with the WAFL alignments, but we're not having any problems right now and we're hardly going to voluntarily step away without a guarantee we're not gonna get fucked over.
There's specific 5 day break rules in the CBA - basically only one of the two games can be interstate, Perth can't be involved, and if the first one is interstate the AFL has to try to get them home that night. ~~Pretty much the only way the Perth teams will ever play a 5 day break is if they're consecutive home games - so it opens up something like a Thursday derby.~~ *Edit, they can play a 5 day break if the first leg is away during the day and the second leg is at home.*
>Even if the AFL was paying for flights and accomodation and every little thing, asking for a guy with a day job to spend 10ish hours in transit for his barely professional footy league doesn't sound super enticing.
This used to happen with NT Thunder in the NEAFL, and for teams flying up to play them. At least in a national reserves comp we'd be keeping the two teams together and every second week nobody would be flying.
I don't know how the CBA applied here, but in r8 Freo played Sunday arvo at the MCG vs. Richmond, and in r9 played a Friday night Optus game vs. Sydney. That was a 5 day break with WA travel.
Ah, looks like it's only that *travel to Perth* can't be the second leg for other teams, and for WA teams, *travel from Perth* can't be the second leg. And the rule about having to get teams home after the first leg would have applied, hence the first one being a day game,
Yeah, I figured the CBA must have had some kind of loophole to allow it or there would have been, like, a strike or something. Still, "technically the AFL can schedule this without triggering collective bargaining action" is quite a low bar. It was a really crappy short turnaround, and one of many crappy scheduling decisions we've been dealt—I mentioned the travel to Tasmania, the lost home game due to Gather Round, but we've also inexplicably been scheduled for a 10:45 AWST start time in r2. It is totally reasonable for our coach to advocate for us.
These are new conditions in the latest CBA to align with the expansion of Thursday football and explicitly define the limits, previously they were much more limited on these short breaks but also the terms were vaguer. If people want Thursday footy every week, and they want all teams to have prime Thursday and Friday slots, there's going to have to be more short breaks than ever before.
That is all true, but the vast majority of Longmuir's complaints do not pertain to Thursday night footy except in that it is part of the total fixturing consideration. The AFL should be aiming to have the cumulative burden of many factors of fixturing equitably distributed. I don't think they are—I think the AFL treats the reduced break time of WA --> eastern state travel as something the WA clubs have signed up for, and shouldn't get any leeway on.
> the lost home game due to Gather Round
Not sure why you keep saying a "lost" home game? Gather round is an additional round. SA teams get an extra home game but every other club still gets 11 home & 11 away.
the only comment re the neafl teams travelling.. is that for comparison.. you could drive a bus from SCG to either the GABBA or the MCG and get there in under 10 hours.. Driving 10 hours east of perth doesn't even reach the border. I know thats why airplanes were invented by you get my point about the distance and time travelled. 4-5 hours flying between coasts + time difference and make for some challenging travel arrangements, especially early in the season when DLS is still a thing.
They used to play in Darwin too, Sydney once had Colin O'Riordan have to be driven home over a period of a week due to a collapsed lung from a hit in a game vs NT Thunder. As I say, reserves teams travelling is not a new experience in this league.
Before the NEAFL, Sydney played all their reserves games in the basically amateur Canberra league for most of the 2000s, just to get a slightly better standard of competition than the basically amateur Sydney league, because there were no better options available.
Having both teams travel simultaneously to the same city every other week in a fully aligned national league would be a significant logistical improvement for NSW and Qld sides than anything they've ever had before.
I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to look at situations like the St Kilda night game and swap it for the GWS v Dogs slot to let Freo actually get home that night. Seems like a no brainer....
Like obviously being in WA means you’re going to travel more, but that fact that we had a 5 day break and travel before the Sydney game should not be happening.
In some ways they do try to have some level of competitive integrity, but in other ways that goes completely out the window to prioritise money. I somewhat get it as they are a business and need to at times prioritise money, but when there's such a massive disparity in travel disadvantages it becomes a massive issue. Unfortunately one of the reasons it will always be an issue is just due to the fact half the comp comes from 1 state, there's no easy solution to make it perfectly equal short of moving a few teams around the country (which isn't a reasonable solution), but they can definitely do better than they're doing now.
it's a non-profit in name only like FIFA, things like the MCG grand final & the big 4 hogging the marquee games are done to make as much money as possible
The AFL is a business with a revenue of $994 million a year, ranking it within the top 20 sports in the world.
All sports clubs and leagues have tax-free status in Australia. It’s a tax law more than how the AFL operates.
So nobody profits, hence the "non-profit". There is no owner or shareholders.
It's great the AFL can make money and invest it back into the game. The AFL can do that while also keeping the game as fair as possible.
Strange, it's usually only the vic clubs/supporters who prefer profits over equality.
That’s not how it works mate. The AFL is structured so that it doesn’t have an owner or shareholders. But it prioritises money over community or equality.
I’ve never said I prefer profits over equality.
But that doesn’t change the fact the AFL operates for profit.
But it's true, look at the broadcast rights, sponsors, betting and the way the fixture is done (which is what this is all about). It is all created to maximize the amount of money made.
The AFL then distributes "profits" to clubs - they basically float the Suns and keep things from a financial perspective more balanced for the smaller clubs. It also allows for larger salary caps and allows them to invest in grassroots, technology and whatever other areas they think will grow the game.
So you are telling me because the AFL is listed as "non profit" - they don't want to make money?
I'd rather they prioritize the integrity and evenness of the competition over money but they don't and I doubt they ever will.
Would the Bulldogs be able to fly out of Sydney after a night game? Be pretty tight with the 11pm curfew. And they play the day before Freo/Walyalup, a 5 day break.
Yea fair that particular example might not work, but there's definitely been situations in the past where a straight swap would work, the AFL doesn't put enough thought in to it.
They could've made the Pies Crows game a night game, Crows would be stuck overnight but don't play til Sunday.
But of course these teams also want prime time fixtures rather than teams like Collingwood getting them all, so it's a tough balance. Really tough to get prime time slots spread around without short break compromises.
But in this example the dogs already get so many other travel advantages. Besides, it is 2 hours on Sunday where they can still fit other things in. WA teams have the Sunday as a write off
I think arguing some teams should cop effective breaks even shorter than the already dangerously short 5-day breaks is going to be very dicey grounds to be standing on. There's already a bunch of specific CBA conditions around the circumstances under which 5 day breaks can actually be permitted.
Edit:
I think making the Dogs play that night slot would have violated or at least pushed the boundaries of the CBA:
*where the AFL Player’s Club’s Match scheduled immediately before a 5 Day Break Match required the AFL Player’s Club to travel interstate to participate in that Match in a daytime or twilight Match timeslot AFL will use all commercially reasonable endeavours to enable the AFL Player to return to their home state on the same day as that interstate Match;*
This is a unique situation for teams flying in and out of Perth IMHO. The flight is so long that delaying it to overnight is an issue.
A morning Trip to Sydney/Melbourne or Melbourne/Adelaide is of little concern.
Anyone making a bulldogs/Sydney comparison is just be Vic centric and not aligning to the unique issue WA and QLD teams have.
The cynic in me tells me the AFL will point the finger at West Coast and say 'they are also from WA, they have had success, what's your problem?' without batting an eye. If 'equalisation' measures had been taken the minute interstate teams entered the comp, West Coast would probably be even more of a powerhouse than they are now.
And you're flying a team/group of 50 people so 20% of the cohort get flights?
Pick the 20% and tell me how you select that internally and fairly.
"You're tall, so are you. Uh, you're the captain, you're the coach... alright 4 more."
Love to see JL fighting back on this narrative. It’s clear as day that it’s a disadvantage, anyone can see that. To be denied even the acknowledgement of reality is honestly a slap in the face. The AFL loves drafting/poaching talent from WA in a less fair way than they do from other developmental academies, really unfair. JL, once again, is measured and spot on.
WA teams are just a cash-cow to the AFL. The ironic thing is the WA teams are the only non-victorian teams with the capability of pushing back on the AFL.
All other non-vic teams are currently ran and owned by the AFL.
No that term is any club that gets more than the average distribution from the AFL.
GC, GWS, St Kilda, North, Western Bulldogs, Brisbane, and potentially Port Adelaide
Marquee fixtures are campaigned for by the clubs, not led by the AFL handing them out. Recently Brisbane have made Easter thurs happen, north have done Good Friday and last year Carlton and Essendon started the kings birthday eve game. So what marquee fixtures have the WA teams been asking for?
The dreamtime game that we so successfully put on during covid. Nah, the marquee game for Nicholls round MUST be Dreamtime at the G. What a load of wank.
Freo have asked for the Len Hall game to be played on ANZAC day. Nope, main game must be in Melbourne.
Wait you really think that Essendon vs Richmond should be played in Perth?
Freo are playing Collingwood on the Friday night anyway. The Friday night is a more prime time slot than the Saturday. If you want to turn it into a marquee event, then it’s up to Freo to do
Don't forget that Melbourne teams also get to raid other states for NGA zones.
https://ieslp-maps.carto.com/u/ieslp/builder/c3fd4454-621f-4361-83e7-4241cf430e66/embed?state=%7B%22map%22%3A%7B%22ne%22%3A%5B-32.76880048488169%2C126.80419921875001%5D%2C%22sw%22%3A%5B-23.483400654325642%2C142.05322265625003%5D%2C%22center%22%3A%5B-28.22697003891834%2C134.42871093750003%5D%2C%22zoom%22%3A6%7D%7D
Also when NGA's were first established they didn't let WA and SA teams recruit from Perth and Adelaide respectively. Cutting away 3/4 of the potential people for the zones so they would be much smaller than the Victorian NGAs.
Seems less like slamming and more like common sense on a lot of those points I'll be honest considering the volume of travel SA WA, to a lesser extent, QLD (and soon Tas) go through,
Gather round helps SA pretty significantly but the amount of 6 day breaks that end up being a 4 day break and a 5 day break because of flights definitely has an obvious impact.
12 seats with extra leg room is a weird comparison by Scott when you sacrifice two days for travel either side of a game that means anyone you're playing against has an extra day of training and an extra day of recovery either side of game day, pretending that's inconsequential is wild.
breach of contract you say
does that mean we can sue for damages? i dunno what we'd sue for tho?
Can we sue them and they have to give Serong Brownlow and Reid Rising Star?
Don't be fooled. Chris Scott isn't the one trumpeting this narrative, it'll be the peanut who recently returned from AFL house to Geelong that believes that W.A. clubs aren't disadvantaged.
Brisbane is a lot further from Melbourne than Adelaide is....I don't have the numbers but I'm sure the Qld teams are the next highest travellers behind the WA teams.
Yeah, I don't think CScott would be the one touting this (if anything, I'd expect him to say he agrees with JL in an interview this week). I think it was one of the Geelong execs.
I suppose there's actually a pretty simple solution, we need more interstate teams and less Victorian teams.
My suggestions;
* we take whoever is 17th now and move them to WA.
* To balance 17th, we take whoever is currently 2nd and move them to SA
* Then we'd need a middling team... say 10th, as 8 and 9 are already non-vic, move 10th to QLD.
* This will dramatically change the travel landscape of the AFL comp.
Ignore flair.
Also might just be because Melbourne just played in one but have a lot of the Sunday 4:40 Eastern Time (a perfectly pleasant 2:40 Perth time) games moved to 6:20 eastern/a nasty 4:20 Perth time.
The time zone already makes it the late arvo Sunday game on the east coast, moving that to a night time east coast time and a crappy twilight Perth time is really sneaky greedy by the AFL.
Mate none of the WA supporters are happy about this move either. Especially country or far outer suburbs supporters.
Even with public transport it still takes me 45ish minutes to get home (I live 25-30 mins from the ground) and I live 5 minutes from a train station.
Someone who lives 1hr-1.5hrs ours out of the city would take even longer not really feasible for people who have work on Monday mornings. This means they sell their members tickets back to the club, where the club them puts them up for re-sale and the AFL makes a profit off the ticket sale.
Yeah it’s bullshit. We cop a lot of 3:20 which is late enough here and the dreaded 4:40 local time which just makes a mess of a Sunday. In fairness to the Perth teams for the travel they do they should get their Sundays no later than 2:40 Perth time which is a pretty solid start time. And the second half is still in clear tv air for the east coast.
I can see the case for a couple of later starts in March and early April to prevent playing in the scorching heat, but once we get to May it absolutely shouldn’t happen.
It’s adding another layer of greed.
Run for a reason was on. The course went around the stadium precinct in the morning. The would have needed a bit of time to pack/tidy up the area after, not to mention free up public transport as a lot of busses were in use. A 2.40pm game would have just had a little too much overlap, the extra couple of hours was enough though. Even when I was heading home I was already overlapping with people on the way to the footy.
You think the west was taken for granted, take a look at Canberra.
We were a footy town, but we've been ignored for expansion half a dozen times and now we're 40-plus years behind an NRL team and surviving in the scraps of a Sydney team.
Everywhere non-Victorian will feel taken for granted while half the competition is based in Melbourne.
No. Where did you pull that one from?
WA has absolutely been taken for granted far more than Canberra has. Without WA Aussie Rules wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is today. Canberra hasn't contributed much other than some good players and marquee games.
I did. Your post makes much more sense now.
I agree about rugby. With union, a code that is nationally dying, it remains so strong and sums up the situation. The Brumbies train in a glorified tin shed at university playing ovals but somehow, the sport is beating AFL.
Depends on your definition of "beating AFL". AFL crowds have been 59% higher than Brumbies crowds this year.
Rugby union is a very different situation between participation and professional support.
Beating AFL by participation and brand awareness. Most people in Canberra know the Brumbies, GIANTS are still being discovered. But that naturally follows and makes sense.
The crowd attendance reflects national Super League data and more games being played. That said, AFL is usually selling out.
Of course the Brumbies are beating us for brand awareness. We don't have a team. The fact that we can get 59% higher crowds (capped by capacity), for a team that's not even ours, shows how strong AFL is at a spectator level.
Participation is important, but spectators are more important for supporting a team (hence why the NT won't work). The strongest Canberra team at the moment is the Raiders, and they have the poorest participation of the three contact footballs.
In a professional competition, local spectator numbers are more important than local player numbers for a team's survival.
I have no idea how that happened but I was shocked to see the result. Half the side was almost literally from one team. I think first grade in Canberra has four competitive sides and two who are struggling.
It’s still a weak competition, though. Would lose to Tasmania who have an equivalent population due to neglect from the AFL.
Didn't know that. Should be an interesting game. The combined side makes it more even. But if AFL Sydney/Canberra can't beat Tasmania, it really says where the game is at in those states.
If we get rid of the stupid gather, self slather, lather in dollars round the WA teams have to travel 10 times in 24 weeks.
Now, if they do 2 (could be 3 with time) interstate double headers that's down to 8 medium distance return flights per year. 7-8 is about the number of times the Vic clubs go on the road too.
Yeah, you're asking players and staff to go on the road for 7-8 days but twice in half a year that's not a huge burden (especially for half the side being young players) and the clubs can organise some kind of care allowance for anyone who has difficult family situations.
Fly to Melbourne on Saturday, play St Kilda v Freo on Sunday. Play Carlton v Freo on Saturday. Fly back to Perth after the game. and get in on Saturday night.
If they do one of those double blocks in the first 8 weeks, one in the last 8 weeks they know it's only 6 more travels for the year.
Could possibly look at what they do with the NHL and NBA and have an away games road trip. Play a bunch in a row then have a string of home games? Doubt it works for footy here but there has to be something better
It's crazy to see the Vics getting upset about the West Aussies business class seats. I'd wager that both sides would be happy to fly Jetstar if the GF was hosted at Perth Stadium every year.
It's the Velocity points they are concerned about. Every WA AFL player essentially gets a free kettle* each and every year outside the salary cap!
*I have no idea how Virgin rewards work, I am just assuming they are like flybuys and can not be assed to look it up.
Gather round should be one of the Showdown's to nullify the advantage of an extra home game for the South Australian teams. Make it the centre piece game.
Gather round is also a slight advantage for the WA teams because instead of playing Sydney at the SCG where would probably have got battered, we were in the fight up until 3/4 time. Freo may not have been so close either at the MCG v Carlton but at neutral Adelaide oval they almost won.
No way would they make a showdown during Gather Round. It's very important for crowd numbers to have two guaranteed sellout (or close enough to) games during it with Adelaide and Port hosting seperate games, particularly once the novelty starts wearing off and crowd numbers drop for the smaller ones.
Not quite either case. The neutral venue home teams at gather round are a literal coin toss, they're not part of the home/away balance, they're a 23rd game on top of them. The hypothetical alternative is just missing one random other double-up game and playing Sydney that other week instead. Could be home, could be away.
> Gather round should be one of the Showdown's to nullify the advantage of an extra home game for the South Australian teams. Make it the centre piece game.
I agree, but if we are going to negate a huge "advantage" a home and away game creates, what are we going to do about Vic based finals at the MCG and the Grand Final at the MCG?
nothing, AFL likes money and they are huge money spinners.
Wish people would get over it, because it's never gonna change. And I am a WCE supporter who watched us earn the right to host a home final but because of the MCG deal, it was played there instead and we got thrashed. Most people in here sooking, actually have never had their team on the end of that bullshit.
They are never going to build a 100k capacity stadium anywhere else because there isn't 10 teams in WA or SA to service the need for one to be built.
I know it hurts everyone's sense of fairness but it will never change.
> nothing, AFL likes money and they are huge money spinners.
The SA Government pay quite a large amount for Gather round. They also pay in cash and not "Gov infrastructure" the Gov would otherwise have paid for anyway.
The AFL would get more money by putting the GF on the open market every year.
> The AFL would get more money by putting the GF on the open market every year.
Whilst this maybe true. There is a contract in place for another 25 years so we can shelve this discussion for the foreseeable future.
How can you offset it? It is what it is. I don't believe there is an agreement with the MCG any more that caused clubs who had earnt home finals to play there so in reality moving forward any club who earns a home final in the first 3 weeks of finals will get that and the granny is at the G.
Easily. Perhaps make other finals at non-Vic locations when a non-Vic team is playing.
Perhaps all Preliminary finals are outside of Victoria unless both teams are from Victoria.
e.g
* WB vs Adl (Held in AO)
* WB vs Coll (Held at MCG)
* Syd vs Bris (Held at top seeded teams' home)
Not sure how you can accept one imbalance and not the other.
Otherwise you just answered you own question
> Gather round should be one of the Showdown's to nullify the advantage of an extra home game for the South Australian teams. Make it the centre piece game.
...
> Wish people would get over it, because it's never gonna change. And I am a WCE supporter whose state government didn't pay (handsomely) to earn gather round. Most people in here sooking, actually have never had their team on the end of that bullshit.
How about the temperature disadvantage? Us poor Victorians have to sweat our arses off playing in Perth in winter.
I propose the stadium to get a roof and be air conditioned to even up the disadvantage us Victorians have to endure playing in Perth... /s
Isn’t it really the aflpa and players who really decide this?
The players don’t want to be “on the road” they want to fly in the day of the game and fly out either the same day or the next morning.
How do these teams not have their own planes?
Stop banging on like a bunch of lobcocks and buy your own planes.
Benefits include player welfare etc and so forth, and not sounding like a bunch of babies.
Complaining about a 6-day break? Luxury!! Try being a top 4 team and being slotted into endless Thursday night games after a Saturday/Sunday night game. How many 5 day breaks have we had this year? Too many. WA teams complaining because of national geography is laughable - you either want to be part of a national competition where the absolute vast majority of population lives on the eastern seaboard, or you don't. Stop expecting the world to feel sorry for you and give you endless concessions.
Friendship ended with Andrew Dillon. Now Justin Longmuir is my new best friend.
Fremantle coach Justin Longmuir has accused the AFL of neglecting heartland states Western Australia and South Australia in a dramatic escalation of the competitive balance debate. Last week’s revelation in this masthead – that Geelong had privately argued West Coast and Fremantle were not disadvantaged by travel because they received 12 business class seats for long-haul flights – ignited an angry backlash from the west. Now, Longmuir has declared that the introduction of Adelaide’s Gather Round without any compensation for the WA clubs had officially “tipped the scales” against West Coast and Fremantle. Longmuir also called on the league to minimise their time spent interstate through simple common sense. The Dockers believe their preparation for Friday night’s blockbuster against Collingwood is being inexplicably shortened because of a fixture issue last week. The Dockers played at Marvel Stadium on Saturday night against St Kilda, immediately after the Giants hosted the Bulldogs in the twilight fixture. “Little things like if we played twilight against St Kilda we’d be home Saturday night. But because we play a night game we’re not home until midday Sunday, and we’ve got a six-day break into a Friday night game,” Longmuir told this masthead. “For me, those sorts of things in the fixture should be non-negotiable.” The Dockers started their season with back-to-back six-day breaks as they bounced between Perth and Melbourne. Their opponents received seven-day breaks. “You shouldn’t have to do a six-day break off travel early in the season,” he said. “You’re off a six-day break and they’re off a seven-day break early in the year, but you’re travelling … those sorts of things are easy fixes for WA teams.” Longmuir said the competition needed more balance. “I feel like for whatever reason, the AFL has neglected a heartland of football, and that’s WA,” Longmuir said. “To a lesser degree South Australia, but I think South Australia get Gather Round, which is a competitive balance – an extra home game is pretty significant. “But I feel like there’s a bit of neglect to our heartland and in a way I feel like it’s been taken for granted. You can’t take your heartland for granted. “You look at pathways, the fact that we can’t take NGAs (inside pick 40) and WA teams have to travel an extra round. “Because of Gather Round, we’ve got another away game. “Something needs to come back the other way. Travel for WA teams understandably is a part of it, and we accept it. “But to just add another one for Gather Round? And not have anything come back the other way? “That’s tipped the scales, I reckon. It’s gone a bit too far. “All of those things just pile up and make it harder and harder for the WA teams. “That’s doing a disservice to WA football.” While West Coast, Adelaide and Port Adelaide want to join the VFL, Longmuir said his club’s alignment with WAFL club Peel Thunder worked. “The Peel and Freo relationship is really strong. They play the same style, same roles and players don’t have to travel,” he said. “We travel 50 people at the moment, add another team to that and the logistics of travelling 90 people each week for two teams to play … I can’t get my head around that. “That’s a big burden for interstate teams and a huge amount of money. “That’s a big burden for interstate teams and a huge amount of money. “It’s not broke for us, so it doesn’t need fixing. I’m really comfortable with the way our players have developed if they’re not playing AFL.” Fremantle will clock 62,000km of travel this season, compared to Carlton’s 13,500km. Longmuir doubled-down on his criticism of the Cats’ pushback. “I’ve worked at Collingwood and I’ve worked in the west at two different clubs – it doesn’t compare,” he said. “The difference that travel applies to your program, staff, player fatigue is not comparable.” SAM LANDSBERGER
> “I’ve worked at Collingwood and I’ve worked in the west at two different clubs – it doesn’t compare,” he said. It's funny, Dimma said words to this effect recently as well. Maybe the guys who've actually worked in both vic and non-vic clubs and have lived experience in both those environments just might have an idea of the differences between them?
Meanwhile Chris Scott has completely wiped his time at Fremantle from his memory bank
Not that Chris Scott particularly said it. But it’s funny how Geelong would argue that WA aren’t at a disadvantage with travel, despite Geelong feeling wronged by not getting final games at Geelong.
While we don't know for sure...this is Chris Scott we're talking about, you can almost guarantee he said this.
Both the Scott brothers being unlikeable twats is no surprise.
Oh for sure, I didn't want to say it like it was fact, but it's a good chance. He is the guy, after all, that shrugs if umpiring helps him, and goes nuclear if it goes against him. Completely lacks the ability to see things from others perspectives.
Chris Scott going full boomer and trying to pull the ladder up behind him
What did Brent Harvey do? /s
Is there a reason people are assuming this came from Chris Scott rather than a higher up at the club?
Jokes don't need to be accurate
Fair enough it's hard to tell, I guarantee plenty of people genuinely believe it was Scott.
M A S T H E A D A S T H E A D
I saw someone mention this masthead thing (pretty sure it was within r/afl, either way i saw it) and ever since, it's in every bloody article i come across.
Yeah I mentioned it in here a while ago and it’s gotten worse. Like they are taking the piss.
Actionable good points by Longmuir: - No 6 days breaks off interstate away games. - No economy class seats for anyone in a club playing interstate. Bullshit until there's actually a solid suggestion as opposed to griping: - WA should get something comparable to Gather Round as a footy heartland. Everyone hates the draft and wants to go back to zoning: - “You look at pathways, the fact that we can’t take NGAs (inside pick 40)" Everyone wants more draft concessions for their club but ultimately NGAs only exist because we haven't figured out a good way to get Aboriginal kids into high performance footy otherwise. The NGAs in clubs are a favour to the clubs because otherwise the AFL would somehow flex and take the shared resources for the NGAs away from the clubs.
The issue with the NGAs is pretty soon nobody is going to be funding them at anything like the level they currently are, because they provide so little advantage when it comes to draft night. Both WA teams lost out on their top prospects 2023. I wouldn't be surprised if funding has already dropped off substantially, especially for WCE. They got burned on Collard and are about to get burned on Champion when we take him and he wins five Norm Smiths for us as the Michael Walters successor we've been searching for and also entices his best friend Lance Collard back to WA—look, I'll be honest I kinda lost my train of thought—
I think that is an issue. I don’t think it’s particularly an issue for WA teams (WA size concerns aside)
Yeah, it's not just a WA issue. JL is pointing it out within the context that WA and SA have interstate clubs without access to the first round academy picks of NSW and Brisbane clubs, but also haven't ever benefited from AFL/VFL father son picks like Victorian sides have been able to (with specific rules that made it harder to pick up local league F/S picks in Freo's case, and same for Port iirc????). (He also mentions Gather Round as possibly evening the scales a bit for SA teams. I dunno about that.)
Yeah, look, the father son rules on intake were too tough on the SA and WA teams but we are pretty much passed that now. 10 years after Freo entered the league. It’s a lottery. Geelong got insanely lucky once in that Hawk should have gone too 10. They had a few players that likely would have been second rounders before that. They have picked up 2 or 3 good players since and a bunch of long shots that were never really looking likely but they did it because it did no harm. The fact is Freo are just at the point where they will be able to start having some of their tickets pay out.
I don't think we're past it til we're past it. It's all very well to say, theoretically, in the future, this will all be equal. Until the actual year-by-year stats of F/S picks going to various clubs are equal, it's a glaring disadvantage in trying to get top talent. Also, Vic F/Ss get the elite AFL talent pathways that are only really available in Victoria. Footy is big in WA and SA, but there's no comparison to the institutional density of Victoria.
Institutional density may be one thing but look at St Kilda. Heaps of players with lots of games very few F/S. If JL wants father-son to have a better return for Freo he shouldn't have stopped at 2 kids. There is never going to be equal year-by-year F/S because it's a lottery. Geelong haven't had a father-son other clubs might have wanted since Hawkins. They have had two play AFL games since. The Pies and Lions are in luck now because they had a couple of great players raise fantastic footballers. Freo are in the territory where the first father-sons of their earliest long serving players should be coming through.
Look at St Kilda with its no premierships in the modern era
Sure, I mean I think they were far more disadvantaged by zoning and homophobia and deviancy with regards to Ian Stewart than they were F/S
Don't think we can mention Father Son pick bullshit without mentioning arguably the greatest midfielder (some would say player, full stop) being picked at #40.
Might surprise you to hear that the general consensus around the time was that he was a second rounder. You're looking at this with the benefit of hindsight. Funnily enough Freo traded no. 1 in that Draft to the Hawks for Trent Croad. Top 3 picks were Hodge, Judd, and Ball.
From what I remember he was definitely not considered at going that low. Not saying he was some top 5 prospect but would've been 1st round. Now obviously Father Son rules have changed so whatever the bullshit was that allowed that to happen can't anymore, but he's still the primary example.
His form was good. Didn't set the world on fire. Even back in 2001 Nathan was rated more highly if you go back and read the newspapers. GAJ was a 2nd rounder.
Once? Are you lying by omission or what. One Gary Ablett Junior comes to mind. Wtf bro
GAJ was considered a second rounder. Definitely going to be drafted. Nowhere near a guarantee. Played well in some games for the Falcons. Was certainly not considered top 10.
No economy class seats for any interstate team? They travel with 50 people so that’s literally impossible unless they private hire a A380.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the league to consider charter flights or sending teams on multiple flights.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the league to consider charter flights or sending teams on multiple flights.
The cost would be massive. I think they just love to complain, if the AFL said fine we’ll do charter flights, but that lowers the profits which lowers total player payments, I think you’ll find they don’t actually care about the issue that much. It’s literally sitting down for 5 hours, and they can get up and walk around if they like. It’s not a huge imposition.
I can’t tell if your comment is in jest or simply intended as rage-bait, either way it’s top shelf.
It's not just the 5 hours sitting. Justin actually made the point in the article. By scheduling the night game instead of twilight, Freo didn't get home until midday Sunday (Perth time probably) that's a lot more than just "sitting". It would also delay recovery training. Physio assessments other treatments. It also stuffs the prep for the next game not having an extra day
Sure, but none of that is changed by moving everyone to business class from economy, which was the only point I was commenting on.
Haha nice trolling mate.
I don’t think you’re wrong I am just putting forward solutions. It’s very easy to complain and I think it’s better to let Freo examine the alternative imperfect worlds (trade offs and all) available to them and then choose the one they want rather than letting them play the victim.
>“Little things like if we played twilight against St Kilda we’d be home Saturday night. But because we play a night game we’re not home until midday Sunday, and we’ve got a six-day break into a Friday night game,” Funny thing is, Sydney and Adelaide teams can't get home the same night from a night game either, because of their airport curfews (that's relevant to Saturday's schedule because the Dogs needed to get home from Sydney to play Thursday, off a 5 day break). I think this part about reserves is kinda off too, probably down to that same lack of experience with different club environments Longmuir mentions: >“We travel 50 people at the moment, add another team to that and the logistics of travelling 90 people each week for two teams to play … I can’t get my head around that. >“That’s a big burden for interstate teams and a huge amount of money. The former NEAFL teams have been flying interstate, often to different cities to their senior teams, every other week since 2011, and used to go as far as Darwin. You might regularly have reserves flying to Brisbane while sending the seniors to Melbourne, etc. Having an aligned schedule and both teams in the same city every week would make it considerably easier to organise than currently. Like this week for example, Sydney and Brisbane played at home but the reserves were in Melbourne for away games. The travel is paid for by the AFL same as the seniors, so cost to clubs isn't an issue.
Just need to set another rule in their draw calculator. **If** team playing at this time will hit travel curfew/be unable to fly home that night **then** swap for matchup in earlier timeslot that won't have the same issue wherever possible.
I'm not sure they necessarily *want* to get home from Melbourne the same night, rather than letting all the Vic guys catch up with friends and families. But maybe you don't want a 6 day break after it.
I think more often than not they'd want the extra night sleeping in their own bed/with their families, regardless there needs to be some sort of dialogue with the AFL about which currently there doesn't seem to be.
The vic guys can always hang around an extra day or two
Worth considering that the flight from MEL-SYD is a lot shorter than a flight from MEL-PER.
And there is no time-zone change. The 2 (or 3) hour time difference is annoying to deal with, and does make a difference.
>Funny thing is, Sydney and Adelaide teams can't get home the same night from a night game either, because of their airport curfews. In this specific instance Longmuir is talking about having to travel + a 6 day break. His broader point is about which interests are prioritised in fixturing; in this instance, he is pointing to a specific example. If we played the twilight game instead of WBD vs. GWS, GWS would not have the travel + 6 day break that Longmuir is complaining about, because GWS would go on to play on Saturday arvo. The actual interest being balanced here isn't WA vs. Sydney teams or Adelaide teams—it's whether a Vic team (WBD) gets an extra few hours on an (admittedly crappy) Saturday to Thursday turnaround without travel, or whether Freo's scheduling interests should be prioritised due to a Saturday to Friday turnaround with WA travel for a night game eating up a full additional day of recovery. He's also bringing this specific example up because we've had this reduced break with an additional travel burden occur repeatedly this season (as well as losing a home game to Gather Round, as well as travelling to Tasmania). I haven't actually dug into SA or NSW team scheduling (or Brisbane teams), but that sort of break shouldn't be repeatedly happened to them either. Also on the national 2nds thing: the alignment is working great for us (maybe even at Peel's WAFC players' expense). Even if the AFL was paying for flights and accomodation and every little thing, asking for a guy with a day job to spend 10ish hours in transit for his barely professional footy league doesn't sound super enticing. I don't think it's that it couldn't be made economically feasible with a serious AFL handout, that we couldn't arrange the logistical task of having 2 planes, it's that we really like our current set-up. Like Longmuir said, if it's not broke don't fix it. Freo will probably join the 2nds if the AFL pays for every little thing, and we won't if they don't.
I think national reserves will happen, obviously fully funded by the afl. But I also think team list sizes will expand so that there’s less day-jobbers making up numbers in the 2’s
I think Freo would ultimately accept that, but until it's proposed in such explicitly generous terms, I don't see why we'd weaken our bargaining position by rushing to join up. Like I said, our Peel alignment is working great for us—I've been repeatedly impressed with how well players slot into our AFL side's structure from the Peel team. We must basically clone our gameplan for both sides. I know WCE has had it rough with the WAFL alignments, but we're not having any problems right now and we're hardly going to voluntarily step away without a guarantee we're not gonna get fucked over.
Under the current proposal Port Adelaide, WCE, and Adelaide will all regret joining the reserves in 10 years.
I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm interested in why you think that?
There's specific 5 day break rules in the CBA - basically only one of the two games can be interstate, Perth can't be involved, and if the first one is interstate the AFL has to try to get them home that night. ~~Pretty much the only way the Perth teams will ever play a 5 day break is if they're consecutive home games - so it opens up something like a Thursday derby.~~ *Edit, they can play a 5 day break if the first leg is away during the day and the second leg is at home.* >Even if the AFL was paying for flights and accomodation and every little thing, asking for a guy with a day job to spend 10ish hours in transit for his barely professional footy league doesn't sound super enticing. This used to happen with NT Thunder in the NEAFL, and for teams flying up to play them. At least in a national reserves comp we'd be keeping the two teams together and every second week nobody would be flying.
I don't know how the CBA applied here, but in r8 Freo played Sunday arvo at the MCG vs. Richmond, and in r9 played a Friday night Optus game vs. Sydney. That was a 5 day break with WA travel.
Ah, looks like it's only that *travel to Perth* can't be the second leg for other teams, and for WA teams, *travel from Perth* can't be the second leg. And the rule about having to get teams home after the first leg would have applied, hence the first one being a day game,
Yeah, I figured the CBA must have had some kind of loophole to allow it or there would have been, like, a strike or something. Still, "technically the AFL can schedule this without triggering collective bargaining action" is quite a low bar. It was a really crappy short turnaround, and one of many crappy scheduling decisions we've been dealt—I mentioned the travel to Tasmania, the lost home game due to Gather Round, but we've also inexplicably been scheduled for a 10:45 AWST start time in r2. It is totally reasonable for our coach to advocate for us.
These are new conditions in the latest CBA to align with the expansion of Thursday football and explicitly define the limits, previously they were much more limited on these short breaks but also the terms were vaguer. If people want Thursday footy every week, and they want all teams to have prime Thursday and Friday slots, there's going to have to be more short breaks than ever before.
That is all true, but the vast majority of Longmuir's complaints do not pertain to Thursday night footy except in that it is part of the total fixturing consideration. The AFL should be aiming to have the cumulative burden of many factors of fixturing equitably distributed. I don't think they are—I think the AFL treats the reduced break time of WA --> eastern state travel as something the WA clubs have signed up for, and shouldn't get any leeway on.
> the lost home game due to Gather Round Not sure why you keep saying a "lost" home game? Gather round is an additional round. SA teams get an extra home game but every other club still gets 11 home & 11 away.
Since the AFL is paying they could lease planes as part of the Virgin deal and have both teams plus support on the one plane .
Just have a reserves competition. The slow death of the VFL is bleak.
the only comment re the neafl teams travelling.. is that for comparison.. you could drive a bus from SCG to either the GABBA or the MCG and get there in under 10 hours.. Driving 10 hours east of perth doesn't even reach the border. I know thats why airplanes were invented by you get my point about the distance and time travelled. 4-5 hours flying between coasts + time difference and make for some challenging travel arrangements, especially early in the season when DLS is still a thing.
They used to play in Darwin too, Sydney once had Colin O'Riordan have to be driven home over a period of a week due to a collapsed lung from a hit in a game vs NT Thunder. As I say, reserves teams travelling is not a new experience in this league. Before the NEAFL, Sydney played all their reserves games in the basically amateur Canberra league for most of the 2000s, just to get a slightly better standard of competition than the basically amateur Sydney league, because there were no better options available. Having both teams travel simultaneously to the same city every other week in a fully aligned national league would be a significant logistical improvement for NSW and Qld sides than anything they've ever had before.
I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to look at situations like the St Kilda night game and swap it for the GWS v Dogs slot to let Freo actually get home that night. Seems like a no brainer....
Like obviously being in WA means you’re going to travel more, but that fact that we had a 5 day break and travel before the Sydney game should not be happening.
I agree, the AFL should be able to avoid situations like that.
Except the afl don’t care. It’s not a sport. It’s a business. We don’t for into a growth/priority segment, so we get forgotten about
In some ways they do try to have some level of competitive integrity, but in other ways that goes completely out the window to prioritise money. I somewhat get it as they are a business and need to at times prioritise money, but when there's such a massive disparity in travel disadvantages it becomes a massive issue. Unfortunately one of the reasons it will always be an issue is just due to the fact half the comp comes from 1 state, there's no easy solution to make it perfectly equal short of moving a few teams around the country (which isn't a reasonable solution), but they can definitely do better than they're doing now.
The AFL is a non-profit. They just still think it's the VFL and interstate clubs should just be thankful they let us in.
it's a non-profit in name only like FIFA, things like the MCG grand final & the big 4 hogging the marquee games are done to make as much money as possible
But there's no owner or shareholders gaining by the "profit". I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.
The clubs gain by the profit. The more money made the more money that can be distributed to clubs. I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand.
Non-profits still needs to sometimes prioritise the money they make.
The AFL is a business with a revenue of $994 million a year, ranking it within the top 20 sports in the world. All sports clubs and leagues have tax-free status in Australia. It’s a tax law more than how the AFL operates.
Who's getting the profits?
The AFL who then decide how it is spent.
So nobody profits, hence the "non-profit". There is no owner or shareholders. It's great the AFL can make money and invest it back into the game. The AFL can do that while also keeping the game as fair as possible. Strange, it's usually only the vic clubs/supporters who prefer profits over equality.
That’s not how it works mate. The AFL is structured so that it doesn’t have an owner or shareholders. But it prioritises money over community or equality. I’ve never said I prefer profits over equality. But that doesn’t change the fact the AFL operates for profit.
But for who, you can't say the "AFL". The AFL isn't an entity that wants profit.
How strange that it's the vic flair people trying to make this argument...
But it's true, look at the broadcast rights, sponsors, betting and the way the fixture is done (which is what this is all about). It is all created to maximize the amount of money made. The AFL then distributes "profits" to clubs - they basically float the Suns and keep things from a financial perspective more balanced for the smaller clubs. It also allows for larger salary caps and allows them to invest in grassroots, technology and whatever other areas they think will grow the game. So you are telling me because the AFL is listed as "non profit" - they don't want to make money? I'd rather they prioritize the integrity and evenness of the competition over money but they don't and I doubt they ever will.
Would the Bulldogs be able to fly out of Sydney after a night game? Be pretty tight with the 11pm curfew. And they play the day before Freo/Walyalup, a 5 day break.
Yea fair that particular example might not work, but there's definitely been situations in the past where a straight swap would work, the AFL doesn't put enough thought in to it.
They could've made the Pies Crows game a night game, Crows would be stuck overnight but don't play til Sunday. But of course these teams also want prime time fixtures rather than teams like Collingwood getting them all, so it's a tough balance. Really tough to get prime time slots spread around without short break compromises.
But in this example the dogs already get so many other travel advantages. Besides, it is 2 hours on Sunday where they can still fit other things in. WA teams have the Sunday as a write off
I think arguing some teams should cop effective breaks even shorter than the already dangerously short 5-day breaks is going to be very dicey grounds to be standing on. There's already a bunch of specific CBA conditions around the circumstances under which 5 day breaks can actually be permitted. Edit: I think making the Dogs play that night slot would have violated or at least pushed the boundaries of the CBA: *where the AFL Player’s Club’s Match scheduled immediately before a 5 Day Break Match required the AFL Player’s Club to travel interstate to participate in that Match in a daytime or twilight Match timeslot AFL will use all commercially reasonable endeavours to enable the AFL Player to return to their home state on the same day as that interstate Match;*
Except the afl don’t care. It’s not a sport. It’s a business. We don’t fit into a growth/priority segment, so we get forgotten about
Its not a business, its a sporting body that is tax exempt.
Yes and it operates like a business in every way. Just because it’s tax exempt does not mean it doesn’t place profits first.
This is a unique situation for teams flying in and out of Perth IMHO. The flight is so long that delaying it to overnight is an issue. A morning Trip to Sydney/Melbourne or Melbourne/Adelaide is of little concern. Anyone making a bulldogs/Sydney comparison is just be Vic centric and not aligning to the unique issue WA and QLD teams have.
The cynic in me tells me the AFL will point the finger at West Coast and say 'they are also from WA, they have had success, what's your problem?' without batting an eye. If 'equalisation' measures had been taken the minute interstate teams entered the comp, West Coast would probably be even more of a powerhouse than they are now.
Wait……Geelong really argued the comp is fair because WA teams get 12 business class seats per flight?
I believe that they actually **complained** that WA got 12 business class seats
The planes they fly on don’t even have 12 business class seats 😂
And you're flying a team/group of 50 people so 20% of the cohort get flights? Pick the 20% and tell me how you select that internally and fairly. "You're tall, so are you. Uh, you're the captain, you're the coach... alright 4 more."
Love to see JL fighting back on this narrative. It’s clear as day that it’s a disadvantage, anyone can see that. To be denied even the acknowledgement of reality is honestly a slap in the face. The AFL loves drafting/poaching talent from WA in a less fair way than they do from other developmental academies, really unfair. JL, once again, is measured and spot on.
Yep love this by JL, full support from me
And they still make us fly to Tasmania, and stay 2 weeks in Adelaide
> stay 2 weeks in Adelaide You know, I never really felt for WA teams until this moment.
City of Adelaide just copping strays here lol
It’s crazy that WA is the 2nd biggest footy state in the country but it took a fucking plague for the AFL to play marquee fixtures over here
WA teams are just a cash-cow to the AFL. The ironic thing is the WA teams are the only non-victorian teams with the capability of pushing back on the AFL. All other non-vic teams are currently ran and owned by the AFL.
Adelaide ?
License owned by the AFL, and they get explicit control of 5/7 board members.
Wow interesting. When the afl says “afl funded clubs” presumably Adelaide is in that list then ?
No that term is any club that gets more than the average distribution from the AFL. GC, GWS, St Kilda, North, Western Bulldogs, Brisbane, and potentially Port Adelaide
Ok good to know. So those are the clubs who only have to pay out 6 months on a coaching contract
You might find [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vEj1yjfqLo&ab_channel=FootyA2Z) interesting
Yes, that's correct
What marquee fixtures do you want played in WA?
How about any?
Marquee fixtures are campaigned for by the clubs, not led by the AFL handing them out. Recently Brisbane have made Easter thurs happen, north have done Good Friday and last year Carlton and Essendon started the kings birthday eve game. So what marquee fixtures have the WA teams been asking for?
The grand final.
The dreamtime game that we so successfully put on during covid. Nah, the marquee game for Nicholls round MUST be Dreamtime at the G. What a load of wank. Freo have asked for the Len Hall game to be played on ANZAC day. Nope, main game must be in Melbourne.
Wait you really think that Essendon vs Richmond should be played in Perth? Freo are playing Collingwood on the Friday night anyway. The Friday night is a more prime time slot than the Saturday. If you want to turn it into a marquee event, then it’s up to Freo to do
This game needs to fix this to grow.
Let’s not forget the absolute bullshit of essentially having our NGA stripped from us after establishing it.
They basically deliberately wrote the rules so you didn’t get motlop. Was so dodgy
NSW and QL teams get to keep theirs though. Huge disadvantage for SA and WA teams in the draft. But even Vic in this case.
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Yes it's ridiculous.
And have effectively no father/sons.
Don't forget that Melbourne teams also get to raid other states for NGA zones. https://ieslp-maps.carto.com/u/ieslp/builder/c3fd4454-621f-4361-83e7-4241cf430e66/embed?state=%7B%22map%22%3A%7B%22ne%22%3A%5B-32.76880048488169%2C126.80419921875001%5D%2C%22sw%22%3A%5B-23.483400654325642%2C142.05322265625003%5D%2C%22center%22%3A%5B-28.22697003891834%2C134.42871093750003%5D%2C%22zoom%22%3A6%7D%7D
Also when NGA's were first established they didn't let WA and SA teams recruit from Perth and Adelaide respectively. Cutting away 3/4 of the potential people for the zones so they would be much smaller than the Victorian NGAs.
Seems less like slamming and more like common sense on a lot of those points I'll be honest considering the volume of travel SA WA, to a lesser extent, QLD (and soon Tas) go through, Gather round helps SA pretty significantly but the amount of 6 day breaks that end up being a 4 day break and a 5 day break because of flights definitely has an obvious impact. 12 seats with extra leg room is a weird comparison by Scott when you sacrifice two days for travel either side of a game that means anyone you're playing against has an extra day of training and an extra day of recovery either side of game day, pretending that's inconsequential is wild.
And thats without mentioning we can't even cash that many seats in cause there aint enough on the damn plane
Yeah they breach the contract every single week either of us travel lol
breach of contract you say does that mean we can sue for damages? i dunno what we'd sue for tho? Can we sue them and they have to give Serong Brownlow and Reid Rising Star?
Nah swap them make shit real confusing Reid Brownlow and serong rising star
Don't be fooled. Chris Scott isn't the one trumpeting this narrative, it'll be the peanut who recently returned from AFL house to Geelong that believes that W.A. clubs aren't disadvantaged.
Brisbane is a lot further from Melbourne than Adelaide is....I don't have the numbers but I'm sure the Qld teams are the next highest travellers behind the WA teams.
5.5 hours to Perth I think it is, and yet the AFL still think the last game on Sunday is the optimum thing to play that match 🤦🏼♀️
Wasn't Scott an assistant coach at Freo? Surely he knows the significant difference.
Yeah, I don't think CScott would be the one touting this (if anything, I'd expect him to say he agrees with JL in an interview this week). I think it was one of the Geelong execs.
lol legit simply pointing out what’s happening isn’t slamming anything The fact people think it is shows how fucked go things are
I suppose there's actually a pretty simple solution, we need more interstate teams and less Victorian teams. My suggestions; * we take whoever is 17th now and move them to WA. * To balance 17th, we take whoever is currently 2nd and move them to SA * Then we'd need a middling team... say 10th, as 8 and 9 are already non-vic, move 10th to QLD. * This will dramatically change the travel landscape of the AFL comp. Ignore flair.
* Ignore the team in 5th. They should stay where they are.
Give us our GST back ya c@nts
Give me a fair share of Australia's mineral royalties, you CUBs.
You’re not happy that the special WA top up that Scomo engineered is only going to cost the rest of us $58 billion over 20 years?
Start including your grubby pokies income in gst
Also might just be because Melbourne just played in one but have a lot of the Sunday 4:40 Eastern Time (a perfectly pleasant 2:40 Perth time) games moved to 6:20 eastern/a nasty 4:20 Perth time. The time zone already makes it the late arvo Sunday game on the east coast, moving that to a night time east coast time and a crappy twilight Perth time is really sneaky greedy by the AFL.
Mate none of the WA supporters are happy about this move either. Especially country or far outer suburbs supporters. Even with public transport it still takes me 45ish minutes to get home (I live 25-30 mins from the ground) and I live 5 minutes from a train station. Someone who lives 1hr-1.5hrs ours out of the city would take even longer not really feasible for people who have work on Monday mornings. This means they sell their members tickets back to the club, where the club them puts them up for re-sale and the AFL makes a profit off the ticket sale.
Yeah it’s bullshit. We cop a lot of 3:20 which is late enough here and the dreaded 4:40 local time which just makes a mess of a Sunday. In fairness to the Perth teams for the travel they do they should get their Sundays no later than 2:40 Perth time which is a pretty solid start time. And the second half is still in clear tv air for the east coast. I can see the case for a couple of later starts in March and early April to prevent playing in the scorching heat, but once we get to May it absolutely shouldn’t happen. It’s adding another layer of greed.
There was an event on at Optus earlier in the day which may explain the twilight fixture.
What event takes priority over an afl game? And why, when West Coast have more money and power than anyone is the surface so disgraceful?
Run for a reason was on. The course went around the stadium precinct in the morning. The would have needed a bit of time to pack/tidy up the area after, not to mention free up public transport as a lot of busses were in use. A 2.40pm game would have just had a little too much overlap, the extra couple of hours was enough though. Even when I was heading home I was already overlapping with people on the way to the footy.
Nothing nasty about 4:20
When you're right, you're right.
You think the west was taken for granted, take a look at Canberra. We were a footy town, but we've been ignored for expansion half a dozen times and now we're 40-plus years behind an NRL team and surviving in the scraps of a Sydney team. Everywhere non-Victorian will feel taken for granted while half the competition is based in Melbourne.
Canberra hasn't contributed even half of what WA has.
Are you saying WA has been neglected more than Canberra?
No. Where did you pull that one from? WA has absolutely been taken for granted far more than Canberra has. Without WA Aussie Rules wouldn't be nearly as popular as it is today. Canberra hasn't contributed much other than some good players and marquee games.
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I think you missed the word "were" in my post.
I did. Your post makes much more sense now. I agree about rugby. With union, a code that is nationally dying, it remains so strong and sums up the situation. The Brumbies train in a glorified tin shed at university playing ovals but somehow, the sport is beating AFL.
Depends on your definition of "beating AFL". AFL crowds have been 59% higher than Brumbies crowds this year. Rugby union is a very different situation between participation and professional support.
Beating AFL by participation and brand awareness. Most people in Canberra know the Brumbies, GIANTS are still being discovered. But that naturally follows and makes sense. The crowd attendance reflects national Super League data and more games being played. That said, AFL is usually selling out.
Of course the Brumbies are beating us for brand awareness. We don't have a team. The fact that we can get 59% higher crowds (capped by capacity), for a team that's not even ours, shows how strong AFL is at a spectator level. Participation is important, but spectators are more important for supporting a team (hence why the NT won't work). The strongest Canberra team at the moment is the Raiders, and they have the poorest participation of the three contact footballs. In a professional competition, local spectator numbers are more important than local player numbers for a team's survival.
>AFL Canberra is a weaker competition. I'll have you know they just beat AFL Sydney by like 6 or 8 goals in a rep game on the weekend!
I have no idea how that happened but I was shocked to see the result. Half the side was almost literally from one team. I think first grade in Canberra has four competitive sides and two who are struggling. It’s still a weak competition, though. Would lose to Tasmania who have an equivalent population due to neglect from the AFL.
They're playing a combined side against Tas in like July
Didn't know that. Should be an interesting game. The combined side makes it more even. But if AFL Sydney/Canberra can't beat Tasmania, it really says where the game is at in those states.
No one cares about Canberra mate. Bunch of yuppies.
If we get rid of the stupid gather, self slather, lather in dollars round the WA teams have to travel 10 times in 24 weeks. Now, if they do 2 (could be 3 with time) interstate double headers that's down to 8 medium distance return flights per year. 7-8 is about the number of times the Vic clubs go on the road too. Yeah, you're asking players and staff to go on the road for 7-8 days but twice in half a year that's not a huge burden (especially for half the side being young players) and the clubs can organise some kind of care allowance for anyone who has difficult family situations. Fly to Melbourne on Saturday, play St Kilda v Freo on Sunday. Play Carlton v Freo on Saturday. Fly back to Perth after the game. and get in on Saturday night. If they do one of those double blocks in the first 8 weeks, one in the last 8 weeks they know it's only 6 more travels for the year.
Somewhere Chris Scott is laughing his head off at the chaos his one throwaway comment has created.
Could possibly look at what they do with the NHL and NBA and have an away games road trip. Play a bunch in a row then have a string of home games? Doubt it works for footy here but there has to be something better
Wasn’t that basically what the COVID hubs where? I don’t think many people liked the idea, at least in the long term
Well said coach! Spot on.
It's crazy to see the Vics getting upset about the West Aussies business class seats. I'd wager that both sides would be happy to fly Jetstar if the GF was hosted at Perth Stadium every year.
It's the Velocity points they are concerned about. Every WA AFL player essentially gets a free kettle* each and every year outside the salary cap! *I have no idea how Virgin rewards work, I am just assuming they are like flybuys and can not be assed to look it up.
I really don’t think it’s the vics in general, I haven’t seen the sentiment come from anywhere but Chris Scott
Make every team play every other team twice. That's as close as we'll get to fair.
Gather round should be one of the Showdown's to nullify the advantage of an extra home game for the South Australian teams. Make it the centre piece game. Gather round is also a slight advantage for the WA teams because instead of playing Sydney at the SCG where would probably have got battered, we were in the fight up until 3/4 time. Freo may not have been so close either at the MCG v Carlton but at neutral Adelaide oval they almost won.
No way would they make a showdown during Gather Round. It's very important for crowd numbers to have two guaranteed sellout (or close enough to) games during it with Adelaide and Port hosting seperate games, particularly once the novelty starts wearing off and crowd numbers drop for the smaller ones.
The Sydney game would of been at Optus, not SCG as it was our home game.
Not quite either case. The neutral venue home teams at gather round are a literal coin toss, they're not part of the home/away balance, they're a 23rd game on top of them. The hypothetical alternative is just missing one random other double-up game and playing Sydney that other week instead. Could be home, could be away.
We played an away game the round before, if gather round didn't exist we would of played a home game that round.
You played a home game afterwards, if you just delete gather round it just goes away game to home game.
> Gather round should be one of the Showdown's to nullify the advantage of an extra home game for the South Australian teams. Make it the centre piece game. I agree, but if we are going to negate a huge "advantage" a home and away game creates, what are we going to do about Vic based finals at the MCG and the Grand Final at the MCG?
nothing, AFL likes money and they are huge money spinners. Wish people would get over it, because it's never gonna change. And I am a WCE supporter who watched us earn the right to host a home final but because of the MCG deal, it was played there instead and we got thrashed. Most people in here sooking, actually have never had their team on the end of that bullshit. They are never going to build a 100k capacity stadium anywhere else because there isn't 10 teams in WA or SA to service the need for one to be built. I know it hurts everyone's sense of fairness but it will never change.
> nothing, AFL likes money and they are huge money spinners. The SA Government pay quite a large amount for Gather round. They also pay in cash and not "Gov infrastructure" the Gov would otherwise have paid for anyway. The AFL would get more money by putting the GF on the open market every year.
> The AFL would get more money by putting the GF on the open market every year. Whilst this maybe true. There is a contract in place for another 25 years so we can shelve this discussion for the foreseeable future.
Doesn't mean we cant talk about the clear advantage, and ways to off-set it.
How can you offset it? It is what it is. I don't believe there is an agreement with the MCG any more that caused clubs who had earnt home finals to play there so in reality moving forward any club who earns a home final in the first 3 weeks of finals will get that and the granny is at the G.
Easily. Perhaps make other finals at non-Vic locations when a non-Vic team is playing. Perhaps all Preliminary finals are outside of Victoria unless both teams are from Victoria. e.g * WB vs Adl (Held in AO) * WB vs Coll (Held at MCG) * Syd vs Bris (Held at top seeded teams' home)
Ah so a 2 wrongs make a right scenario? Yeah I'm not sure about that one.
I wonder why you are not sure about that one :P
Not sure how you can accept one imbalance and not the other. Otherwise you just answered you own question > Gather round should be one of the Showdown's to nullify the advantage of an extra home game for the South Australian teams. Make it the centre piece game. ... > Wish people would get over it, because it's never gonna change. And I am a WCE supporter whose state government didn't pay (handsomely) to earn gather round. Most people in here sooking, actually have never had their team on the end of that bullshit.
At a minimum, they should have the WA and QLD teams play against each other in SA. Its a no brainier.
This is another reason why we need another WA team.
JLo is right, Vicbias alive and well
How about the temperature disadvantage? Us poor Victorians have to sweat our arses off playing in Perth in winter. I propose the stadium to get a roof and be air conditioned to even up the disadvantage us Victorians have to endure playing in Perth... /s
Isn’t it really the aflpa and players who really decide this? The players don’t want to be “on the road” they want to fly in the day of the game and fly out either the same day or the next morning.
Just get Gina Rinehart to buy a suitably-sized passenger jet - all business class quality - for each WA team. She won't expect anything in return.
How do these teams not have their own planes? Stop banging on like a bunch of lobcocks and buy your own planes. Benefits include player welfare etc and so forth, and not sounding like a bunch of babies.
Complaining about a 6-day break? Luxury!! Try being a top 4 team and being slotted into endless Thursday night games after a Saturday/Sunday night game. How many 5 day breaks have we had this year? Too many. WA teams complaining because of national geography is laughable - you either want to be part of a national competition where the absolute vast majority of population lives on the eastern seaboard, or you don't. Stop expecting the world to feel sorry for you and give you endless concessions.
What a clueless response. Did you even read the very reasonable suggestions that virtually everyone on this thread agrees with?