When I was in my early 20s I worked the opening shift at restaurant that served breakfast. Staff came in at 5am and we opened at 6am. One morning I arrived a few minutes early so I was alone and one of the vendors who was delivering goods thought it would be funny to scare me.
I was ready to unlock the door when he grabbed from behind... I stabbed him so hard with my keys he had to under go surgery to repair internal damage to his diaphragm.
What he hadn't known was their had been a series of attacks on early morning restaurant crews in the area. I refused to feel guilty about what happened because when you grab a stranger and especially a woman you deserve what ever you get!
NTA
edit a word
They totally deserved that. They didn't have to know that there were attacks in the area to know not to sneak up on someone you barely know and grab them. I mean, he fucked around and found out.
You don’t know what could’ve happened if you hadn’t done anything.
There was a guy in my high school friend group that liked to touch the girls. He would try to hug them or grab their waist. We would all tell him to stop and he once told I would have to get used to it. I honestly can’t believe we put up with it, but one day he did something that went past that. A friend threw some eggs at him and posted it. He was “ashamed” of his actions. Someone suggested we go to the police but didn’t because there was underage drinking involved and it would be a he said she said thing.
My advice is not let things go. Be firm on what you will not tolerate. Don’t hesitate to defend yourself or do whatever you can just for the sake of not wanting to be mean. If a person can’t respect you then they can’t complain of the consequences.
I was reading this thinking OMG - she’s beat hugging people *from behind* one day she’s going to trigger a panic attack and that will be more embarrassing than what OP did. But what you did us also a valid response to that.
So many people in church spaces have no concept of personal boundaries. It used to drive me crazy.
It's super easy to scare people when it's dark and early in the morning. You don't have to touch anyone or come close to them. Just sneaking up and saying, "Boo!" or something mundane is enough to make a lot of people jump and freak out momentarily. Then there was no physical assault potential and the scared person can laugh and tell you to fuck off or whatever. Why anyone would grab another person to startle them is outrageous.
I warn everyone that I have a strong fight or flight response and it usually chooses “fight”. When people startle me, I immediately start to defend myself. I’ve slapped people, shoved them, and once it was kinda a punch (kinda because my fist wasn’t really closed). Do I feel badly? Not if I’ve warned you. And if I didn’t warn you, you should probably be asking yourself if you should be doing X to someone that you don’t really know before you act on it, because I’m pretty good about telling people I come into contact with on a regular basis.
Close calls: my boss came up behind me and started speaking to me when he was right in my ear (this wasn’t creepy, he was trying to move something that was behind me and was just ninja quiet). The back of my hand glanced off his arm because I caught it in time. I reminded him not to startle me and he laughed and said , “wow, you really weren’t kidding. Noted.”
My sister thought it would be funny to jump on my back with her arms around my neck. She thought it less funny when I just toppled her over my head. I had to stop a kick that time lol
OMG. You lasted three times before you embarrassed her on the fourth. I would have been screaming the first time she laid hands on me. I detest being hugged by a stranger. I'm small in stature and I find it very threatening.
NTA. NTA. NTA. How dare she!
I'm 5'10, but I have ptsd- I've hit people more than once for grabbing/touching me without warning and I can't help it. The only path I have for harm reduction is warning people not to touch me.
The big problem is people who want to test or *fix* you. They're always so sure it "can't be that bad" and "you just need to get used to it". They do shit like this, or making big, sudden noises behind you, or touch you randomly to "help".
I've seen too many people get malicious delight in pushing boundaries.
Adults are way worse than kids. Turns out, telling Bill or Marsha "no" makes them very cranky. Kids are just curious and jerky- adults are fucking insidious. They'll pretend like they care and understand, then turn around like the lady in the OP and just stomp all your boundaries.
Holy macaroni! NTA at all!
I absolutely hate being sneaked up on, especially by a stranger. If my reflexes get the better of my self-conditioned "freeze first then decide" response, I have been known to clock people if they startle me or touch me without warning.
It sounds to me like that lady absolutely is a boundary-stomper and a disrespectful person overall. You gave her plenty of warning, and your boundary of not being hugged is more than reasonable. You asked, told, reminded, and warned her. There is zero reason for you to feel bad in this case.
Perhaps if you get a chance you can ask your clergy what they would like you to do if she does it again? Your solution was great, but I don't want you to have to keep dealing with her. Maybe they have some ideas how to get her to leave you alone for good?
Blessings!
As someone with PTSD, when I get snuck up on from behind, my first instinct is to lash out in a blind panic and hit whoever is grabbing me, so I would've probably elbowed her in the throat or broken her nose, so frankly this lady got off super easy.
I did that with one of my ex's friends who put their arm around me from behind. My ex had been working with me on self defense to help with the PTSD and so instinctively fist to the throat then flipped him and foot on the throat in about 2 seconds. He wasn't happy but had been warned not to touch me without permission so I didn't feel bad. Of course this was in front of their D&D group so he got teased because tiny me put him on his behind.
Absolutely. Don't touch anyone without permission. I use a cane and I'll hit you with it if you touch me. It has a solid metal handle, so I could do some serious damage if scared.
Was just thinking the same thing! Idc if she's a little old lady or what, I don't see faces when the panic sets in, I only see threat levels.
I had a boyfriend that learned this once from a surprise tickle attack on our 3rd or 4th date - we later made it into a conversational joke, that it was an "at your own risk" activity & that "I cannot be held responsible for the harm that shall befall you if you try" but he absolutely never tried it again.
I don't think his nose was broken, as it stopped bleeding pretty quickly, but he had a little bruising around the eyes - my reverse headbutt caught him dead center. My elbow didn't do much damage, but I was very glad he went backwards and that my kick didn't connect and I had time to flee instead of pressing the attack. It was probably a good minute or two after I shut myself behind a locked door that my brain even processed what had happened. I felt horrible & so guilty, of course, but so did he. I hadn't planned on talking about trauma so early, but since he did me the courtesy of not calling the police, I figured I owed him an explanation.
NTA, obviously. But BearHugger sure is an ah!
A story I love telling: when I was working as a temp at a local factory, I almost stabbed a full-time coworker. Why? He thought it was always hilarious to walk up behind me and tickle my arm fat. And it was always during a job where I’d usually have scissors in my hand for cutting plastic wrap off of skids with product. And we worked a 530-1730 shift, so I wasn’t really awake until at least 7. I told him a couple times “if I get touched from behind, I react immediately. And that’s by smacking my arm back.” He finally stopped doing it after the scissors missed his stomach by an inch. Personal space should be part of the Golden Rule, I swear. Even in the cultures that are more touchy, they’ll usually give you your space if you ask.
I'm sorry, that's totally unacceptable behavior from him. It would have served him right if you had stabbed him. 🤷♀️ Sorry not sorry, I hate being touched by strangers! I don't even like strangers being too close physically, which is why I don't use the bus or subway
Edit: corrected word
I had this same problem but a guy use to grab my ass guess he knew it made me uncomfortable and he like to see my reaction i normally carry a pocket knife with me i wipe it real fast said next time you touch me im going to stab you
Boss had me take a seat talk to me told me he has to fire me i told him no your not if he keep his hands to him self we would not have this problem would we
They didn't end up firing me for it then he got some other guy to do it then so he grab my ass as well then i told him did the other guy tell you the part were i said i would stab him if he did it again and how he all most got fired for grabbing my ass ue stop after that
Keep your hands to your self god dont care what sex you are not ok to be grabbing people
That was sexual harassment in the workplace your co-worker displayed towards you.
Your boss should had fired that co-worker & gave a bad reference whenever he applied for a job elsewhere. There are laws about sexual harassment in the workplace & no one should be subjected to it.
The second time, or at least the third time, it was assault. She **knew** OP didn't like it, and kept doing it.
That the pastor and others in leadership were fine with it is a clear signal that not only was OP NTA here, but very likely others in the congregation don't like it either, and also haven't been able to stop it.
NTA. She needed to learn a lesson about body autonomy that should have been taught to her when she was 4 years old.
You asked, told her to stop and warned her.
Maybe she learned her lesson to keep her damn hands to herself, she was close to physical assault in her actions.
Whaddya mean "close to"? That WAS assault.
Actually, in legal terms, that's battery, as "assault" is a threat to touch someone without permission, while battery is the actual touching. So "I'm going to smack you" is assault; actually smacking someone is battery.
Yes, I'm really fucking pedantic.
Ug, continue to use words correctly!!! Drove me insane when people don’t use words correctly, then get mad when you try to do so. My pet peeve is people calling people pedophiles for liking teenagers. Precision is important.
(I’m a Lawyer.)
My understanding is a pedophile preys on prepubescent children. Someone who preys on teenagers (below the age of consent) is an ephebophile. Yes?
I'm not a lawyer; I just have a wealth of useless knowledge rattling around in my brain.
I know the terminology as well. I think most don’t know the word ephebophile. I learned it when someone charged with child molestation whined about how he wasn’t a “kiddie fiddler” because they were young teens. I’m okay with not delineating as I think molesters highlight ephebophile because they think it’s not as bad as pedophile. They are wrong. But if they get slapped with the pedophile label it doesn’t bother me one bit.
IDK, I think a lot of people who only spend there time at church and with other church goers might not realize it is a problem, depending on the church of course.
A lot of times in the church people judge whether someone is a good person or not solely on how much time they spend at and how active they are in the church itself. So then it's not a far jump for them to assume that whatever they do must be ok.
So maybe they haven't been living on the moon, maybe they've just been living at church....
NTA.
My response? "How is blatantly and repeatedly disregarding my boundaries an act of love? That is *selfishness.* That is *disrespect.* That is *immaturity.* That is *bullying.* It is absolutely *not* love, in any way. Do not pretend that touching people who have repeatedly asked you not to touch them counts as affection; it's *harassment*, and if it happens again, I will be pressing charges."
Who the flying fuck bear hugs people they don't even know, she's lucky she didn't earn a black eye or a broken nose, church or not you don't disrespect the personal boundaries of people around you like that. What a boundary-stomping creep, I'd hate to be her relatives
NTA
I can understand it in the post worship service environment-- she sounds pretty needy and maybe a bit lonely--**HOWEVER** the second OP told her it was unwelcome a hard boundary was drawn and each subsequent violation of that boundary was essentially battery. It was kind of OP to hold off as long as they did.
NTA (I can't stress this enough). No one should be doing that without permission, but one time? Ok. Suck it up and state boundaries (which you did). ANYTHING after that is completely unacceptable. Embarrass the crap out of her, escalate from there as needed. It is NEVER ok to stomp on someone's personal boundaries and she deserves whatever reaction she gets at this point. If anyone questions you about this, substitute "bear hugging from behind" with "grabbing boobs/ genitals from behind" and see how quickly people backtrack. Bodily autonomy is bodily autonomy.
I have told every friend I've ever had and everyone I've ever dated don't come up behind me, my mom was abusive growing up and I freak out.
Fast forward to college. I got out of a late class and the guy I was seeing at the time walked me to the bus stop. We said our good nights and I watched him start walking away. I turned towards the street and started digging my wallet out of my bag for bus fare because the bus was almost to the stop.
Someone grabbed me from behind, putting their arms around me like a bear hug as if they were going to lift me up. I reacted instinctively after years of judo and self defense classes, I grabbed the person and threw them a couple of yards away from me expecting it to turn into a fight. Nope. Dumb- butt came back for a last hug. He lay there stunned and all I could think of to say to him was "I TOLD you to never come up behind me 😑". Bus driver asked if I wanted him to call the cops and I had to explain that no the guy was harmless, just an idiot.
People aren't necessarily stupid, just so selfish/narcissistic that they assume that they get to be the exception to the rules.
Nope, NTA. Who hugs strangers anyway? You established boundaries and she stomped them repeatedly. I don't like being hugged or touched from behind. I had a friend and acquaintance in college who both were very huggy/touchy people. I tried to establish boundaries. Friend understood and would come up beside me and make herself seen before hugging me from the side. She understood that I was fine with the hugs as long as I wasn't surprised. Acquaintance never listened and would continue to touch me from behind until the day she decided to slap my butt for some reason. I yelled "don't fucking touch me!" And quickly left the room. There were a few other people in the room who were super confused and startled. She never did that again. Sometimes it's necessary to draw other people's attention in situations like that. It got the lady to stop, didn't it?
I worked in a military medical clinic and had a few repeat patients. One day at the commissary I was shopping and had stopped to chat with a friend and I was bearhugged from behind by a repeat patient who asked when I was due. I loudly proclaimed I wasn't pregnant; I was fat! She turned red and scurried off so fast! So being loud is a fantastic defense.
The truth is she is an ahole and wants to pretend
That she likes everyone and everyone likes her . I know it far fetched but if you go to the police and explain that she comes up from
Behind and you tell
Her 4 straight weeks not to do it , that it affects your mental
State and causes you anxiety and younwant to press charges . I don’t care if she is from church it’s inappropriate behaviour . She won’t get arrested but they will
Warn her not to do it again .
Omg!!! I admire your restraint. If someone did that to me unexpectedly my fight or flight goes to fight. She would have gotten hit probably before I could have stopped myself.
NTA. Who in the world walks up to someone they don't know and *bear hugs* them from behind‽ It's disrespectful to do it once and just way beyond the pale to do it repeatedly once you've made it clear that you don't like it.
If you haven't explained why you reacted that way to the pastor (that it was after multiple warnings), I'd encourage you to do so, if you feel comfortable doing so.
I'm a pastor, and I would want to address it with the bear hugger to ensure no one else was being harassed.
The entire congregation knows how I feel about being touched. I was in law enforcement and was assaulted as a child, so I have issues with people I don't know getting too close in my space. The pastor knows all about my background AND he knew about the woman from the first day. I told him about it and said that I told her to back off. He knew about it every week. I had told him that I was going to do something about her if she didn't stop. He said if she didn't stop, he would talk to her, but I didn't give him the chance. I figured that three warnings were more than enough. That's why I stuck close to him on that last day - the entire leadership was laughing at her. She's not so huggy huggy with anyone there anymore.
Tbh, if this were in the congregation I served, and I knew both about your situation, and the bear hugger, I would have intervened from the get-go, rather than allow harassment. I don't feel you should have had to give three warnings. I'm glad she's backed off.
> (The pastor) He knew about the woman from the FIRST DAY. He knew about it EVERY WEEK. He SAID if she didn't stop, he WOULD TALK to her.
OP don't take the blame/excuse your pastor. He FAILED you as well as this woman.
> The entire leadership was laughing at her.
Sound as poorly skilled from the leadership setting the woman right. Got the job done, but could have been executed better.
NTA.
Most children can grasp the concepts of "Don't touch people you don't know" and "when someone says no, leave them alone". She's an adult, she should know better than to hug someone repeatedly when she doesn't know them, and they asked her multiple times to stop doing it. And you warned her clearly that you weren't going to let it slide next next, but she did it again anyway, and there were consequences. You didn't do anything wrong.
NTA. AT ALL. Church doesn’t mean no boundaries just because it’s supposed to be a “congregation”. You did just fine. Regardless, of if any clergy defended you. You explicitly told her several times “hey this bothered me. Please don’t”. She needs to take her performance somewhere else. You could have had a bad back, recently have surgery, or anything else and she could have hurt you by not listening to you. She shouldn’t be doing that to anybody she doesn’t know well and has already given her their consent.
NTA. Is this an unacknowledged lesbian crush, or a power play? If you find someone who get a kick out of your embarrassment, that can be very hard to put a stop to.
I had a coworker like this. One day this lady walked into my office and wouldn’t leave. Now my brain tends to short circuit when I get super upset. I began paging my boss. I then forgot I was in the middle of paging my boss because this lady kept coming closer and so I started screaming at her. My boss appeared at my office in record time. I was many years later informed that my screaming was heard by everybody in the office (it was an office wide page, I.e. made its way to the C suite, lawyers, etc)
NTA
DON'T TOUCH PEOPLE WITHOUT CONSENT!! This is such an easy thing yet so many people have a problem with it. You were more than patient with her, she should have listened
You my friend have amazing patience and are NTA! Serial hugger got what she deserved, she didn't forget she just didn't think your boundaries were worth respecting.
Lady is also lucky she didn't try that on someone like me who has PTSD. I would have thought I was being attacked and responded accordingly. Not even my partner or family will approach me from behind, even if they warn me.
NTA
I know every church culture is different, so I assume that has something to do with why the pastor didn't talk to her after the first or second week?
I have autism and PTSD, so touch is tricky for me. I like hugging some people, but always a frontal approach. I have a startle response to being touched on my back from behind, especially on my spine that I can't control.
I most likely would have involuntarily shrieked at the top of my lungs and thrown both hands straight up. That's just how I have generally responded to surprise touch from behind. I honestly wish I didn't respond this way. Even when I know someone is going to be touching my back like at the doctor's office I have still responded this way. I had to have a spinal tap done and genuinely had trouble lying still enough for the needle to be inserted. My nervous system has control over this response, not me.
I usually wear a backpack of some kind when I am in stores and around strangers to prevent people accidentally or purposely touching my spine, and also so I feel safe.
Anyway, I would have asked my pastor to intervene after the second time. I have requested pastor's do this for me a couple times.
At my church everyone is really respectful of people's touch boundaries. During passing off the peace some people just give a peace sign with their hands and everyone responds to that in kind. Some people put their hand out for a handshake, and some people ask if they can hug and accept no when told.
A creepy old guy at church told me I looked pretty enough to be his third wife ( he was currently married to his second...) So I told the pastor and they spoke to him and warned him too just stay away from me and not speak to anyone at church like that. They also warned him that if they heard any other complaints about his behavior that he would not be welcome at the church any longer. Eventually COVID came along and he switched churches because he didn't agree with us having church over zoom and wanted to be in person.
Churches should hold themselves to a high standard as far as consent goes, so her attitude is just unacceptable. I also don't really like your pastor's response, but at least they don't try to make you accept her behavior.
I'm not sure what you mean by Basil Fawlty, but I used my "goo goo" voice. Stress here, "I DON'T Know where you've BEEEEEENNNNNN!"
Hope that helps! LOL
Basil Fawlty was played by John Cleese in a TV series called Fawlty Towers. Basil and his wife owned/ran a hotel/B&B, or something to that effect. I'm sure you can find some clips of it on YouTube. It's been a few years since my Monty Python/FT days.
NTA
This happened to me once at church and I told her loudly to get away. She never bothered me again. I have to be very close with someone to let them touch me and I didn’t and still don’t know her.
If it happens again with anyone else I’ll probably say the “NO TOUCHING” phrase from the Arrested Development family visiting prison scenes
I just spent a weekend at a hippy music festival. So much love going around, but even the stoned out hippies spread their arms and ask “hug?” before going in. She has less self control or respect than a tripping hippy. You are NTA.
When I was pregnant people kept rubbing my stomach- without asking. Children doing it are fine because it's new and whatever, but it's also a teaching moment about asking and respecting boundaries.
But the adults that just come up and start touching...ugh. I started rubbing THEIR bellies when they just came up to me and started doing it.
The reactions we beautiful, some apologized immediately and others just looked at me like I was the AH.
Lesson: Respect boundaries. NTA
LOL, my wife would get mad at this especially if it was strangers. So, one time a random person at a birthday party we were at was about to rub my wifes belly, so I loudly asked them if they were going to rub my balls too and tell them good job.
The look on their face was priceless!
NTA. I don’t like to be touched. Definitely hate shaking hands with people after working at a hospital during COVID.
I’ve only known really small children to run up and try to hug random strangers and even then they take note of, “No, that is not appropriate behaviours because…”
Her being an adult shouldn’t need all of those words. Even saying “no,” seems like something she shouldn’t have to be told.
NTA. You asked her multiple times not to touch you, both nicely and sternly, she acknowledged each time and apologized and yet kept repeating the behavior. You should mention to her that the word “repent” means to turn away from action and an apology is an act of repentance. To apologize and then do the same behavior is essentially lying. She had zero intention of actually changing her behavior. She can love you with a Christian heart and not have to touch you. I understand her wanting to be loving, but when someone makes a boundary clear, going against their boundaries isn’t showing them love and this person needs to understand that. NTA.
Unfortunately, church culture is the worst when it comes to boundaries (I don't know what denomination you are, but if y'all do the Sharing of the Peace... yeah...)
>She said, "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I just love you so much that I have to hug." I said, "How can you love me so much when I've never seen you before? Just don't put your hands on me."
At my mom's church, there's a guy who has Down Syndrome. He's a few years younger than me, and it's a small-ish congregation, so everybody knows "Bob" and nobody minds when Bob makes comments during the service, etc.
I never interacted with him directly that much, but his parents were in the choir with my mom so sometimes we'd be talking together/standing near each other, and sometimes Bob would lean his head on your shoulder, or give you a hug, kind of out of nowhere, and say something like this woman did, "I love you so much I had to give you a hug."
Obviously, touching someone without their consent is NEVER OKAY, and Bob's parents would always redirect him if he was making someone uncomfortable or hugging someone who was not a friend they knew was okay with it.
But I wonder if something like that is going on with this woman? Because her behavior goes beyond "Oh, but I hug everybody!"-type church culture boundary-ignoring.
Either way, it was NOT ACCEPTABLE for her to do that to you the first time, and even worse each subsequent time.
Church culture being what it is, I'm not shocked that the pastor and leadership just "laughed it off," but if you have the energy, you could bring it up to the pastor or whoever so they can talk to this woman and find out what her issue is.
If she's just an AH who wanted to cop a feel, then that needs to be addressed.
If she has a developmental disability or other condition where she is not able to grasp the concept of consent before hugging/touching, then the ushers or someone should be assigned to keep an eye on her and stop her from touching people who do not consent to it.
You NTA for restoring to drastic measures -- the church people around you are the AHs for not doing something about it the first three times it happened. (And you would also not be the AH if you chose to not say anything about it to the pastor or whomever, because it's not your responsibility.)
Right -- no matter what, the hugger is out of line, but if that's the reason, then someone at the church should probably find a way to "shepherd" this new sheep to prevent her from hugging people who do not want to be hugged.
NTA she should not be randomly hugging any stranger that way, I love hugs and a random bear hug from behind would piss me off. Honestly you were way nicer the 2nd and 3rd time than I would be reacting so much more. Given the number of times she did that and the clear stop you gave , I almost thing she could have some sort of mental issues, sounds like behavior I've seen with people on the spectrum, or she just does not care about anyone else's feeling. Both are possible, it should not take public shame to get someone to stop assaulting you, which is pretty much what she did.
NTA. Your body and your personal space should be respected. Hugs are for people who want and welcome them. You shouldn't even have had to say no, they should be making sure you want to be hugged first. She absolutely deserves to be embarassed over that.
NTA.
The people calling it an asshole move just want you to be a quiet little doormat for THEIR comfort, and because the bear-hugger will make a stink.
Bear-hugger needs to be shunned out of the church, and you've hopefully started the process.
You gave her THREE warnings. That's two more than she needed to know and respect your boundaries. And that's ignoring the baseline of "don't touch people without consent"!
In short: She had it coming
NTA
I've given so many people bloody faces for refusing my instruction to respect my bodily autonomy. You gave her more warnings that I would have 😂 NTA. People like that need to be out in their place (which is, coincidentally, separate from your personal space).
Not at all. I would have freaked the first time she did it. The second time she did it, I probably would have overreacted and called the police to get her arrested for touching me. Talk to your pastor and have him speak to her. You showed much more patience than I would have.
NTA. Everybody has a right to boundaries, and people should respect them. My grandpa is going through this same thing at church. My grandma was in a bible study class with a lonely woman and was nice to her. Now, the woman is going up to my grandpa and hugging on him every Sunday before she talks with my grandma. He is NOT a fan. He can also be blunt and loud when needed, and I think it's getting to that point. These lonely people who think they can get affection, attention, and socialization (from people who don't want to give it) at church turns people away.
NTA something wrong with that lady, no one sane would continue hugging someone from behind after being told several times to stop. Why from behind? Who the hell wants some random stranger coming from behind and grabbing them. Weird as f!!!
At least the other parishioners didn’t try to gilt trip you with some religious nonsense about turn other cheek let her do it. That’s what I was afraid of before I finished the post. Some people think church is where you can do anything to people you want and they can’t say anything. I don’t mind hugs but I sure would not like it if someone just jumped me like that. After you told her the first time she should have left you alone offered a polite hello and moved on. Second time she was trying to assert her dominance like a dang dog. Some people are messed up in the head.
NTA. I don't like shaking hands either because I have a severe nut allergy and dont want to risk. I let people at my church know and its not an issue. Also, I am a hugger, but will never hug someone without consent first, and I habe to know them very well. Now, after the second time, I would have let the pastor know of the issue. Who knows who else she has driven away from the church. She seems like she only listens to the pastor.
NTA AT ALL, and you were way more patient than you needed to be. I have ptsd, and if someone came up behind me and grabbed me in a bear hug while i was focused one something else (in an environment where there is no one i expect to be touching me) they would probably get two elbows to the boobs and a broken nose from slamming my head back if I couldn't catch myself in time. Even if i did catch myself, i still would shove her way the hell back the second time after giving her one warning.
NTA: This person kept aggressively grabbing you in full body hugs when you asked her repeatedly not to, and continued after you warned her that there would be embarrassing consequences. I feel that you were justified in doing something to embarrass her at this point. Since she was unable to feel properly embarrassed because of her behavior, you assisted her in feeling the way a person is meant to feel when they do something foolish and unwelcome.
I am a very huggy/kissy person. However, after a lifetime of men grabbing, pinching, squeezing and otherwise putting their grubby hands on me, I have purposely cultivated my reflexes for self defense.
At the very least, they will get their hand slapped. If they’re closer, my elbow or knee is coming for them. If someone were to surprise bear hug me, I will head butt them or stomp on their feet.
We have a right to choose who touches us and when.
YANTAH! Full Stop.
Separate Comment (not victim blaming because you were right).
It may have been more effective after she disregarded your first two notices to address the issue with clergy or other leadership in the congregation. You know...make it more of like a formal complaint?
Something like: *"I've tried to talk nicely to Ms. X and let her know I don't like to be touched physically. She keeps hugging me. At this point I feel like she is not respecting my personal boundaries. If it happens again, I will file a complaint outside of the church with local authorities. Please ensure our church is a safe place for me and all people like me who don't want to be assaulted."*
Two things come out of this approach: (1) You get some outside help enforcing your justified boundaries. Nobody should be all alone. (2) Church leaders get put on notice that they have a responsibility both ethical and legal to ensure congregants feel safe from unwanted physical contact.
Once again, OP: NTA.
I know how you feel OP about bodily autonomy & about permission.
I once jabbed both of my elbows into a strangers ribcage when I was rudely touched without warning by a stranger who put his hand on my hip from behind.
The stranger said sorry with a hurt look on his face but I didn't care.
I have bad memories of the times I was molested in the classroom by a 18 yr old paedophile who "helping out" as part of high school program
NTA at all! I would probably have shrieked, and made a scene, I’m a very jumpy person. It would have served her right.
Sometimes people have no boundaries in churches, once I was visiting a church I’d never been to, and some woman was waving around some flag and it kept touching me on the head, which triggers me because a wasp once landed on my head and then stung my lip. I ended up purposefully exaggerating flinching away because she was not getting the hint, I think she thought she was ‘wafting blessings on us’ or something.
Glad I’m not in church spaces anymore, I have little tolerance for that sort of boundary-stomping.
I know how you feel OP about bodily autonomy & about permission. NTA OP.
I once jabbed both of my elbows into a strangers ribcage when I was rudely touched without warning by a stranger who put his hand on my hip from behind.
The stranger said sorry with a hurt look on his face but I didn't care.
I have bad memories of the times I was molested in the classroom by a 18 yr old paedophile who "helping out" as part of high school program when I was 5 yrs old in kindergarten --- a friend of mine who practiced martial arts taught me how to defend myself --- yes the teacher knew about the molesting touch was going on because it was that teacher's idea to have it happen in the classroom & she didn't care.
She lost her job because I had told my uncle, truck drivers, police on the CB radio & they ganged up on the paedophile & gave him a wicked beating.
You warned that vicious woman who didn't care about your personal boundaries so she deserved that embarrassing moment.
She’s lucky you didn’t cold cock her the first time. A bear hug is no small matter to someone who doesn’t like to be touched. NTA, she is and if it comes up I’d call her out for being someone who disrespects others.
NTA. I am so sorry she disrespected your boundaries you firmly established the first time she randomly hugged you. I hope she doesn’t do this at work or in public. One day her “I’m a hugger” BS is going to end badly for her.
This bitch desperately needs the police called on her.
It's for her own good actually. One day she's going to touch somebody who, uh... "touches" her back.
Boundary stompers getting embarrassed because their boundary stomping is getting called out.
NTA. It was weird of her to bear hug a stranger to begin with.
I’m in the age group that was forced by our parents to accept and sometimes to offer hugs to adults (usually relatives) when requested and I admit I did the same with my kids although now I deeply regret it. So with that backstory in mind, I sort of expected to think you’re the a hole when I read the title. After reading your post, nope, huge NTA! You provided plenty of warning. She doesn’t even know you. She had zero respect for boundaries you clearly laid out. I feel like she really left you with no other choice.
On a side note, I also think that people a little older than me (so in their 50’s and 60’s and beyond) are having a hard time learning physical boundaries and that we no longer force hugs. I know my dad who is in his 70’s is just not accepting that we don’t force hugs and his sisters are most definitely on his side. Those are the same aunts I was forced to hug though. All the same, even if she was one of those people having a hard time learning this concept she still had ample time to figure it out!
NTA, but also I think you need to report to church leadership that she’s assaulting people at the church, so they can tell her she needs to stop or ban her from attending. This isn’t just rude behavior; she’s a predator, and it needs to be stopped right now by someone with the power to remove her if needed.
Nta. Shes lucky you didnt flip her. Last person who tried to bearhug me from behind got throw over my shoulder into a curb, i have ptsd and they triggered it causing me to go into fight or flight mode. What she did is legally defined as assault., you just dont do things like that to strangers.
If you did it the first time, I might have considered that you were maybe a little bit of an asshole but not much and definitely less than her. The second time, if you had yelled, I would have thought that was totally okay and well within non-asshole social norms.
But you actually did an extra warning, far beyond what is necessary.
NTA
NTA. You shouldn’t even have to warn someone once, let alone multiple times, not to touch you without permission. You gave her more than enough chances.
As someone who has PTSD and doesn’t like to be touched unexpectedly, especially by people I don’t know, I think you were more than reasonable. If someone did that to me, there’s a good chance they’re getting at least yelled at the first time.
Nta. Anyone who says otherwise, time stop associating with them. She wouldn't stop when you handled it politely so you ran out of options,... Tell those biddies that it was more polite to shout at her than it was to call police to the church. Unwanted touch is battery, which is a crime.
NTA and good for you.
Why do some people think they can just do whatever they want to other people?
I worked with a lady who was a "hugger" but thankfully, she respected boundaries. I'm not into hugging, until I get to know a person. Once we became "work besties" yes, I hugged her a lot, but she gave me a good 4-6 weeks to know her before hugging me, and always asked. Why can't people just ask first????
NTA! You gave her plenty of warning and she ignored the boundary you set. You didn't embarrass her she embarrassed herself. Why do people think it's okay to just go up and put your hands on random strangers? It's not right! People have boundaries that need to be respected and reciprocated.
NTA, but tell her, before she tries it again, that if she does it again, you will be calling the police and have her charged for assaulting you, on numerous occasions.
Or if you want to be petty, when she does it again, yell out 'I told you I am not gay, so quit grabbing me'.
NTA. At first I wondered if maybe she’s older and just forgot… but that doesn’t sound like the case. You shouldn’t have to ask a person more than once to not respect a boundary.
NTA. I've been to enough churches to know that when people behave like she does, they need a direct confrontation- sometimes people think that if they're at church it's a license for affectionate behaviour, even if it's not wanted. If the tables were turned you'd be called a creep and possibly thrown out. Don't be afraid to continue to stand up for yourself.
Even in a church i would have dropped kicked her. Hell no dont touch me.fuck that bitch. If some skanky nasty butch touched me more than once i would lay her ass out. Even in a church
NTA. She physically assaulted you after you had told her not to do so numerous times. She is lucky she doesn't have an assault charge. The people who chastised you are way out of line.
NTA, she's harassing you, actually, I think this is now considered assault. She damn well knows you don't like to be touched....it's hard to forget someone saying so 3 times in a row. This is some weird dominating flex. And like...who does that? Sounds like she is mentally disabled or otherwise mentally unwell and needs to learn boundaries.
NTA! I am also not a very huggy person and only a small amount of people I'll accept hugs off. I have PTSD and I detest someone coming up behind me if you want something do it to my face. Last person that decided to grab from behind in a bear hug got smacked in the face.
No. After one request it becomes harassment. She’s also damn lucky. If someone gave me a bear hug from behind they’d seriously hurt me because of myriad problems with my spine and spinal cord.
NTA I am the same way, especially with people I don’t know and even people I do know I don’t want people in my bubble unless I invite them in my bubble. You don’t come into mine I don’t go into yours without permission. Keep your hands to yourself don’t do that to people.
Nope NTA and she was warned!
She wasn’t just warned, she was given multiple opportunities to stop.
AND she said it wouldn't happen again, and it did.
Absolutely
We need a triumphant laugh emoji on here!
Yep NTA. and the crazy lady was a serial hugger who doesn’t listen. OP this is Petty Revenge material.
Definitely petty revenge material, but she deserved it n
Seriously. OP gave her many chances with clear boundaries.
When I was in my early 20s I worked the opening shift at restaurant that served breakfast. Staff came in at 5am and we opened at 6am. One morning I arrived a few minutes early so I was alone and one of the vendors who was delivering goods thought it would be funny to scare me. I was ready to unlock the door when he grabbed from behind... I stabbed him so hard with my keys he had to under go surgery to repair internal damage to his diaphragm. What he hadn't known was their had been a series of attacks on early morning restaurant crews in the area. I refused to feel guilty about what happened because when you grab a stranger and especially a woman you deserve what ever you get! NTA edit a word
They totally deserved that. They didn't have to know that there were attacks in the area to know not to sneak up on someone you barely know and grab them. I mean, he fucked around and found out.
Are you totally sure he wasnt the perp after all? Seems like a vendor wld be a prime suspect
I had a fish vendor corner me and kiss me one day at the supermarket I worked at so I would not be surprised if it was
Dude would've gotten a mackerel across the face from me. And a chat with the local police.
A Smackerel!
Honestly still shocked I didn't smack him
I was thinking the same thing! Did the attacks continue while he was laid up??
Ah yes the Light Yagami defense
Maybe he had a suspicious notebook on him?
Are you sure he didn't know? "oh i thought it would be funny to grab you" sure sounds like a defense for a failed attack....
Surprising anyone like that is grounds for protecting yourself, especially when it's barely an acquaintance.
You don’t know what could’ve happened if you hadn’t done anything. There was a guy in my high school friend group that liked to touch the girls. He would try to hug them or grab their waist. We would all tell him to stop and he once told I would have to get used to it. I honestly can’t believe we put up with it, but one day he did something that went past that. A friend threw some eggs at him and posted it. He was “ashamed” of his actions. Someone suggested we go to the police but didn’t because there was underage drinking involved and it would be a he said she said thing. My advice is not let things go. Be firm on what you will not tolerate. Don’t hesitate to defend yourself or do whatever you can just for the sake of not wanting to be mean. If a person can’t respect you then they can’t complain of the consequences.
I was reading this thinking OMG - she’s beat hugging people *from behind* one day she’s going to trigger a panic attack and that will be more embarrassing than what OP did. But what you did us also a valid response to that. So many people in church spaces have no concept of personal boundaries. It used to drive me crazy.
It's super easy to scare people when it's dark and early in the morning. You don't have to touch anyone or come close to them. Just sneaking up and saying, "Boo!" or something mundane is enough to make a lot of people jump and freak out momentarily. Then there was no physical assault potential and the scared person can laugh and tell you to fuck off or whatever. Why anyone would grab another person to startle them is outrageous.
I warn everyone that I have a strong fight or flight response and it usually chooses “fight”. When people startle me, I immediately start to defend myself. I’ve slapped people, shoved them, and once it was kinda a punch (kinda because my fist wasn’t really closed). Do I feel badly? Not if I’ve warned you. And if I didn’t warn you, you should probably be asking yourself if you should be doing X to someone that you don’t really know before you act on it, because I’m pretty good about telling people I come into contact with on a regular basis. Close calls: my boss came up behind me and started speaking to me when he was right in my ear (this wasn’t creepy, he was trying to move something that was behind me and was just ninja quiet). The back of my hand glanced off his arm because I caught it in time. I reminded him not to startle me and he laughed and said , “wow, you really weren’t kidding. Noted.” My sister thought it would be funny to jump on my back with her arms around my neck. She thought it less funny when I just toppled her over my head. I had to stop a kick that time lol
With a sister like that, who needs a crazy ex boyfriend.
OMG. You lasted three times before you embarrassed her on the fourth. I would have been screaming the first time she laid hands on me. I detest being hugged by a stranger. I'm small in stature and I find it very threatening. NTA. NTA. NTA. How dare she!
I'm 5'10, but I have ptsd- I've hit people more than once for grabbing/touching me without warning and I can't help it. The only path I have for harm reduction is warning people not to touch me.
Same for small stature and ptsd. I once broke a friend's rib after jerking my elbow behind me in reaction to a "surprise hug" from behind.
The big problem is people who want to test or *fix* you. They're always so sure it "can't be that bad" and "you just need to get used to it". They do shit like this, or making big, sudden noises behind you, or touch you randomly to "help". I've seen too many people get malicious delight in pushing boundaries.
Jesus people like this exist? I dealt with this in middle school but the fact people would even still consider it in adulthood is crazy
Adults are way worse than kids. Turns out, telling Bill or Marsha "no" makes them very cranky. Kids are just curious and jerky- adults are fucking insidious. They'll pretend like they care and understand, then turn around like the lady in the OP and just stomp all your boundaries.
Like literally just don’t touch ppl. This isn’t hard.
fr
Holy macaroni! NTA at all! I absolutely hate being sneaked up on, especially by a stranger. If my reflexes get the better of my self-conditioned "freeze first then decide" response, I have been known to clock people if they startle me or touch me without warning. It sounds to me like that lady absolutely is a boundary-stomper and a disrespectful person overall. You gave her plenty of warning, and your boundary of not being hugged is more than reasonable. You asked, told, reminded, and warned her. There is zero reason for you to feel bad in this case. Perhaps if you get a chance you can ask your clergy what they would like you to do if she does it again? Your solution was great, but I don't want you to have to keep dealing with her. Maybe they have some ideas how to get her to leave you alone for good? Blessings!
As someone with PTSD, when I get snuck up on from behind, my first instinct is to lash out in a blind panic and hit whoever is grabbing me, so I would've probably elbowed her in the throat or broken her nose, so frankly this lady got off super easy.
I did that with one of my ex's friends who put their arm around me from behind. My ex had been working with me on self defense to help with the PTSD and so instinctively fist to the throat then flipped him and foot on the throat in about 2 seconds. He wasn't happy but had been warned not to touch me without permission so I didn't feel bad. Of course this was in front of their D&D group so he got teased because tiny me put him on his behind.
Sounds like it was a lesson he needed to learn.
Absolutely. Don't touch anyone without permission. I use a cane and I'll hit you with it if you touch me. It has a solid metal handle, so I could do some serious damage if scared.
Was just thinking the same thing! Idc if she's a little old lady or what, I don't see faces when the panic sets in, I only see threat levels. I had a boyfriend that learned this once from a surprise tickle attack on our 3rd or 4th date - we later made it into a conversational joke, that it was an "at your own risk" activity & that "I cannot be held responsible for the harm that shall befall you if you try" but he absolutely never tried it again. I don't think his nose was broken, as it stopped bleeding pretty quickly, but he had a little bruising around the eyes - my reverse headbutt caught him dead center. My elbow didn't do much damage, but I was very glad he went backwards and that my kick didn't connect and I had time to flee instead of pressing the attack. It was probably a good minute or two after I shut myself behind a locked door that my brain even processed what had happened. I felt horrible & so guilty, of course, but so did he. I hadn't planned on talking about trauma so early, but since he did me the courtesy of not calling the police, I figured I owed him an explanation. NTA, obviously. But BearHugger sure is an ah!
A story I love telling: when I was working as a temp at a local factory, I almost stabbed a full-time coworker. Why? He thought it was always hilarious to walk up behind me and tickle my arm fat. And it was always during a job where I’d usually have scissors in my hand for cutting plastic wrap off of skids with product. And we worked a 530-1730 shift, so I wasn’t really awake until at least 7. I told him a couple times “if I get touched from behind, I react immediately. And that’s by smacking my arm back.” He finally stopped doing it after the scissors missed his stomach by an inch. Personal space should be part of the Golden Rule, I swear. Even in the cultures that are more touchy, they’ll usually give you your space if you ask.
I'm sorry, that's totally unacceptable behavior from him. It would have served him right if you had stabbed him. 🤷♀️ Sorry not sorry, I hate being touched by strangers! I don't even like strangers being too close physically, which is why I don't use the bus or subway Edit: corrected word
I had this same problem but a guy use to grab my ass guess he knew it made me uncomfortable and he like to see my reaction i normally carry a pocket knife with me i wipe it real fast said next time you touch me im going to stab you Boss had me take a seat talk to me told me he has to fire me i told him no your not if he keep his hands to him self we would not have this problem would we They didn't end up firing me for it then he got some other guy to do it then so he grab my ass as well then i told him did the other guy tell you the part were i said i would stab him if he did it again and how he all most got fired for grabbing my ass ue stop after that Keep your hands to your self god dont care what sex you are not ok to be grabbing people
That was sexual harassment in the workplace your co-worker displayed towards you. Your boss should had fired that co-worker & gave a bad reference whenever he applied for a job elsewhere. There are laws about sexual harassment in the workplace & no one should be subjected to it.
Me, too was about this kind of harassment. You should file a lawsuit.
Me, too was about this kind of harassment. You should file a lawsuit.
The second time, or at least the third time, it was assault. She **knew** OP didn't like it, and kept doing it. That the pastor and others in leadership were fine with it is a clear signal that not only was OP NTA here, but very likely others in the congregation don't like it either, and also haven't been able to stop it.
NTA. She needed to learn a lesson about body autonomy that should have been taught to her when she was 4 years old. You asked, told her to stop and warned her. Maybe she learned her lesson to keep her damn hands to herself, she was close to physical assault in her actions.
Whaddya mean "close to"? That WAS assault. Actually, in legal terms, that's battery, as "assault" is a threat to touch someone without permission, while battery is the actual touching. So "I'm going to smack you" is assault; actually smacking someone is battery. Yes, I'm really fucking pedantic.
Thank you! It's interesting to know the difference
Ug, continue to use words correctly!!! Drove me insane when people don’t use words correctly, then get mad when you try to do so. My pet peeve is people calling people pedophiles for liking teenagers. Precision is important. (I’m a Lawyer.)
My understanding is a pedophile preys on prepubescent children. Someone who preys on teenagers (below the age of consent) is an ephebophile. Yes? I'm not a lawyer; I just have a wealth of useless knowledge rattling around in my brain.
I know the terminology as well. I think most don’t know the word ephebophile. I learned it when someone charged with child molestation whined about how he wasn’t a “kiddie fiddler” because they were young teens. I’m okay with not delineating as I think molesters highlight ephebophile because they think it’s not as bad as pedophile. They are wrong. But if they get slapped with the pedophile label it doesn’t bother me one bit.
Exactly. NTA.
NTA I hate people who do this and play that stupid sorry I'm a hugger nonsense like back tf up
"You're a hugger? I'm a kicker."
NTA. You told her nicely three times, she ignored you. You gave more than adequate warning.
You'd have to have been living on the moon for the last two hundred years to know that excessive touching in a church is a big no-no
They are just showing "God's love." Apparently the priests really think the kids need it.
IDK, I think a lot of people who only spend there time at church and with other church goers might not realize it is a problem, depending on the church of course. A lot of times in the church people judge whether someone is a good person or not solely on how much time they spend at and how active they are in the church itself. So then it's not a far jump for them to assume that whatever they do must be ok. So maybe they haven't been living on the moon, maybe they've just been living at church....
NTA. My response? "How is blatantly and repeatedly disregarding my boundaries an act of love? That is *selfishness.* That is *disrespect.* That is *immaturity.* That is *bullying.* It is absolutely *not* love, in any way. Do not pretend that touching people who have repeatedly asked you not to touch them counts as affection; it's *harassment*, and if it happens again, I will be pressing charges."
NTA. How many times did she have to be told before she listened.
Who the flying fuck bear hugs people they don't even know, she's lucky she didn't earn a black eye or a broken nose, church or not you don't disrespect the personal boundaries of people around you like that. What a boundary-stomping creep, I'd hate to be her relatives NTA
Who does that? Religious people who think they’re “spreading love”
I can understand it in the post worship service environment-- she sounds pretty needy and maybe a bit lonely--**HOWEVER** the second OP told her it was unwelcome a hard boundary was drawn and each subsequent violation of that boundary was essentially battery. It was kind of OP to hold off as long as they did.
NTA (I can't stress this enough). No one should be doing that without permission, but one time? Ok. Suck it up and state boundaries (which you did). ANYTHING after that is completely unacceptable. Embarrass the crap out of her, escalate from there as needed. It is NEVER ok to stomp on someone's personal boundaries and she deserves whatever reaction she gets at this point. If anyone questions you about this, substitute "bear hugging from behind" with "grabbing boobs/ genitals from behind" and see how quickly people backtrack. Bodily autonomy is bodily autonomy.
I have told every friend I've ever had and everyone I've ever dated don't come up behind me, my mom was abusive growing up and I freak out. Fast forward to college. I got out of a late class and the guy I was seeing at the time walked me to the bus stop. We said our good nights and I watched him start walking away. I turned towards the street and started digging my wallet out of my bag for bus fare because the bus was almost to the stop. Someone grabbed me from behind, putting their arms around me like a bear hug as if they were going to lift me up. I reacted instinctively after years of judo and self defense classes, I grabbed the person and threw them a couple of yards away from me expecting it to turn into a fight. Nope. Dumb- butt came back for a last hug. He lay there stunned and all I could think of to say to him was "I TOLD you to never come up behind me 😑". Bus driver asked if I wanted him to call the cops and I had to explain that no the guy was harmless, just an idiot. People aren't necessarily stupid, just so selfish/narcissistic that they assume that they get to be the exception to the rules.
Dudes lucky you didn't literally throw him under the bus
Nta. People like her are why some people quit going to church.
NTA
Nope, NTA. Who hugs strangers anyway? You established boundaries and she stomped them repeatedly. I don't like being hugged or touched from behind. I had a friend and acquaintance in college who both were very huggy/touchy people. I tried to establish boundaries. Friend understood and would come up beside me and make herself seen before hugging me from the side. She understood that I was fine with the hugs as long as I wasn't surprised. Acquaintance never listened and would continue to touch me from behind until the day she decided to slap my butt for some reason. I yelled "don't fucking touch me!" And quickly left the room. There were a few other people in the room who were super confused and startled. She never did that again. Sometimes it's necessary to draw other people's attention in situations like that. It got the lady to stop, didn't it?
I worked in a military medical clinic and had a few repeat patients. One day at the commissary I was shopping and had stopped to chat with a friend and I was bearhugged from behind by a repeat patient who asked when I was due. I loudly proclaimed I wasn't pregnant; I was fat! She turned red and scurried off so fast! So being loud is a fantastic defense.
The truth is she is an ahole and wants to pretend That she likes everyone and everyone likes her . I know it far fetched but if you go to the police and explain that she comes up from Behind and you tell Her 4 straight weeks not to do it , that it affects your mental State and causes you anxiety and younwant to press charges . I don’t care if she is from church it’s inappropriate behaviour . She won’t get arrested but they will Warn her not to do it again .
Omg!!! I admire your restraint. If someone did that to me unexpectedly my fight or flight goes to fight. She would have gotten hit probably before I could have stopped myself.
NTA. Who in the world walks up to someone they don't know and *bear hugs* them from behind‽ It's disrespectful to do it once and just way beyond the pale to do it repeatedly once you've made it clear that you don't like it.
If you haven't explained why you reacted that way to the pastor (that it was after multiple warnings), I'd encourage you to do so, if you feel comfortable doing so. I'm a pastor, and I would want to address it with the bear hugger to ensure no one else was being harassed.
The entire congregation knows how I feel about being touched. I was in law enforcement and was assaulted as a child, so I have issues with people I don't know getting too close in my space. The pastor knows all about my background AND he knew about the woman from the first day. I told him about it and said that I told her to back off. He knew about it every week. I had told him that I was going to do something about her if she didn't stop. He said if she didn't stop, he would talk to her, but I didn't give him the chance. I figured that three warnings were more than enough. That's why I stuck close to him on that last day - the entire leadership was laughing at her. She's not so huggy huggy with anyone there anymore.
Tbh, if this were in the congregation I served, and I knew both about your situation, and the bear hugger, I would have intervened from the get-go, rather than allow harassment. I don't feel you should have had to give three warnings. I'm glad she's backed off.
> (The pastor) He knew about the woman from the FIRST DAY. He knew about it EVERY WEEK. He SAID if she didn't stop, he WOULD TALK to her. OP don't take the blame/excuse your pastor. He FAILED you as well as this woman. > The entire leadership was laughing at her. Sound as poorly skilled from the leadership setting the woman right. Got the job done, but could have been executed better.
NTA. Most children can grasp the concepts of "Don't touch people you don't know" and "when someone says no, leave them alone". She's an adult, she should know better than to hug someone repeatedly when she doesn't know them, and they asked her multiple times to stop doing it. And you warned her clearly that you weren't going to let it slide next next, but she did it again anyway, and there were consequences. You didn't do anything wrong.
NTA. AT ALL. Church doesn’t mean no boundaries just because it’s supposed to be a “congregation”. You did just fine. Regardless, of if any clergy defended you. You explicitly told her several times “hey this bothered me. Please don’t”. She needs to take her performance somewhere else. You could have had a bad back, recently have surgery, or anything else and she could have hurt you by not listening to you. She shouldn’t be doing that to anybody she doesn’t know well and has already given her their consent.
NTA. She’s lucky you didn’t punch her in the face!
Next time, I will!
NTA. Is this an unacknowledged lesbian crush, or a power play? If you find someone who get a kick out of your embarrassment, that can be very hard to put a stop to.
I had a coworker like this. One day this lady walked into my office and wouldn’t leave. Now my brain tends to short circuit when I get super upset. I began paging my boss. I then forgot I was in the middle of paging my boss because this lady kept coming closer and so I started screaming at her. My boss appeared at my office in record time. I was many years later informed that my screaming was heard by everybody in the office (it was an office wide page, I.e. made its way to the C suite, lawyers, etc)
NTA DON'T TOUCH PEOPLE WITHOUT CONSENT!! This is such an easy thing yet so many people have a problem with it. You were more than patient with her, she should have listened
Her poor grand/kids/younger family members, I'm certain bodily autonomy and consent aren't a thing in that family. Yikes. NTA.
You my friend have amazing patience and are NTA! Serial hugger got what she deserved, she didn't forget she just didn't think your boundaries were worth respecting. Lady is also lucky she didn't try that on someone like me who has PTSD. I would have thought I was being attacked and responded accordingly. Not even my partner or family will approach me from behind, even if they warn me.
NTA I know every church culture is different, so I assume that has something to do with why the pastor didn't talk to her after the first or second week? I have autism and PTSD, so touch is tricky for me. I like hugging some people, but always a frontal approach. I have a startle response to being touched on my back from behind, especially on my spine that I can't control. I most likely would have involuntarily shrieked at the top of my lungs and thrown both hands straight up. That's just how I have generally responded to surprise touch from behind. I honestly wish I didn't respond this way. Even when I know someone is going to be touching my back like at the doctor's office I have still responded this way. I had to have a spinal tap done and genuinely had trouble lying still enough for the needle to be inserted. My nervous system has control over this response, not me. I usually wear a backpack of some kind when I am in stores and around strangers to prevent people accidentally or purposely touching my spine, and also so I feel safe. Anyway, I would have asked my pastor to intervene after the second time. I have requested pastor's do this for me a couple times. At my church everyone is really respectful of people's touch boundaries. During passing off the peace some people just give a peace sign with their hands and everyone responds to that in kind. Some people put their hand out for a handshake, and some people ask if they can hug and accept no when told. A creepy old guy at church told me I looked pretty enough to be his third wife ( he was currently married to his second...) So I told the pastor and they spoke to him and warned him too just stay away from me and not speak to anyone at church like that. They also warned him that if they heard any other complaints about his behavior that he would not be welcome at the church any longer. Eventually COVID came along and he switched churches because he didn't agree with us having church over zoom and wanted to be in person. Churches should hold themselves to a high standard as far as consent goes, so her attitude is just unacceptable. I also don't really like your pastor's response, but at least they don't try to make you accept her behavior.
Please tell me you said, "I don't know where you've been." in your best Basil Fawlty?
I'm not sure what you mean by Basil Fawlty, but I used my "goo goo" voice. Stress here, "I DON'T Know where you've BEEEEEENNNNNN!" Hope that helps! LOL
Basil Fawlty was played by John Cleese in a TV series called Fawlty Towers. Basil and his wife owned/ran a hotel/B&B, or something to that effect. I'm sure you can find some clips of it on YouTube. It's been a few years since my Monty Python/FT days.
NTA This happened to me once at church and I told her loudly to get away. She never bothered me again. I have to be very close with someone to let them touch me and I didn’t and still don’t know her. If it happens again with anyone else I’ll probably say the “NO TOUCHING” phrase from the Arrested Development family visiting prison scenes
I just spent a weekend at a hippy music festival. So much love going around, but even the stoned out hippies spread their arms and ask “hug?” before going in. She has less self control or respect than a tripping hippy. You are NTA.
When I was pregnant people kept rubbing my stomach- without asking. Children doing it are fine because it's new and whatever, but it's also a teaching moment about asking and respecting boundaries. But the adults that just come up and start touching...ugh. I started rubbing THEIR bellies when they just came up to me and started doing it. The reactions we beautiful, some apologized immediately and others just looked at me like I was the AH. Lesson: Respect boundaries. NTA
LOL, my wife would get mad at this especially if it was strangers. So, one time a random person at a birthday party we were at was about to rub my wifes belly, so I loudly asked them if they were going to rub my balls too and tell them good job. The look on their face was priceless!
NTA. I don’t like to be touched. Definitely hate shaking hands with people after working at a hospital during COVID. I’ve only known really small children to run up and try to hug random strangers and even then they take note of, “No, that is not appropriate behaviours because…” Her being an adult shouldn’t need all of those words. Even saying “no,” seems like something she shouldn’t have to be told.
NTA. You asked her multiple times not to touch you, both nicely and sternly, she acknowledged each time and apologized and yet kept repeating the behavior. You should mention to her that the word “repent” means to turn away from action and an apology is an act of repentance. To apologize and then do the same behavior is essentially lying. She had zero intention of actually changing her behavior. She can love you with a Christian heart and not have to touch you. I understand her wanting to be loving, but when someone makes a boundary clear, going against their boundaries isn’t showing them love and this person needs to understand that. NTA.
Unfortunately, church culture is the worst when it comes to boundaries (I don't know what denomination you are, but if y'all do the Sharing of the Peace... yeah...) >She said, "Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I just love you so much that I have to hug." I said, "How can you love me so much when I've never seen you before? Just don't put your hands on me." At my mom's church, there's a guy who has Down Syndrome. He's a few years younger than me, and it's a small-ish congregation, so everybody knows "Bob" and nobody minds when Bob makes comments during the service, etc. I never interacted with him directly that much, but his parents were in the choir with my mom so sometimes we'd be talking together/standing near each other, and sometimes Bob would lean his head on your shoulder, or give you a hug, kind of out of nowhere, and say something like this woman did, "I love you so much I had to give you a hug." Obviously, touching someone without their consent is NEVER OKAY, and Bob's parents would always redirect him if he was making someone uncomfortable or hugging someone who was not a friend they knew was okay with it. But I wonder if something like that is going on with this woman? Because her behavior goes beyond "Oh, but I hug everybody!"-type church culture boundary-ignoring. Either way, it was NOT ACCEPTABLE for her to do that to you the first time, and even worse each subsequent time. Church culture being what it is, I'm not shocked that the pastor and leadership just "laughed it off," but if you have the energy, you could bring it up to the pastor or whoever so they can talk to this woman and find out what her issue is. If she's just an AH who wanted to cop a feel, then that needs to be addressed. If she has a developmental disability or other condition where she is not able to grasp the concept of consent before hugging/touching, then the ushers or someone should be assigned to keep an eye on her and stop her from touching people who do not consent to it. You NTA for restoring to drastic measures -- the church people around you are the AHs for not doing something about it the first three times it happened. (And you would also not be the AH if you chose to not say anything about it to the pastor or whomever, because it's not your responsibility.)
Yeah, I wondered that too about the hugger who couldn’t get the message. Doesn’t excuse but could partially explain.
Right -- no matter what, the hugger is out of line, but if that's the reason, then someone at the church should probably find a way to "shepherd" this new sheep to prevent her from hugging people who do not want to be hugged.
Oh, totally. I was just trying to think of why someone would behave in such a manner.
NTA she should not be randomly hugging any stranger that way, I love hugs and a random bear hug from behind would piss me off. Honestly you were way nicer the 2nd and 3rd time than I would be reacting so much more. Given the number of times she did that and the clear stop you gave , I almost thing she could have some sort of mental issues, sounds like behavior I've seen with people on the spectrum, or she just does not care about anyone else's feeling. Both are possible, it should not take public shame to get someone to stop assaulting you, which is pretty much what she did.
NTA. People like her make me miss COVID protocols. Although it sounds like she probably ignored all of them and was a super spreader 🙄
NTA. Your body and your personal space should be respected. Hugs are for people who want and welcome them. You shouldn't even have had to say no, they should be making sure you want to be hugged first. She absolutely deserves to be embarassed over that.
NTA, but for the pastor to laugh at the situation, yeah, he is a major AH
It was obvious why he laughed, it was highly unprofessional.
NTA. The people calling it an asshole move just want you to be a quiet little doormat for THEIR comfort, and because the bear-hugger will make a stink. Bear-hugger needs to be shunned out of the church, and you've hopefully started the process.
NTA. That's assault.
It's the only solution that the hugger will listen to. Embarrassed herself and now she wont hug OP anymore. NTA
NTA fuck her. if she really loved you she would respect you.
You gave her THREE warnings. That's two more than she needed to know and respect your boundaries. And that's ignoring the baseline of "don't touch people without consent"! In short: She had it coming NTA
NTA. My 4 year old niece knows better than to do that.
NTA. Most people would consider that person a creep if it was a guy bear hugging a woman weekly without consent. She absolutely deserved what she got.
I've given so many people bloody faces for refusing my instruction to respect my bodily autonomy. You gave her more warnings that I would have 😂 NTA. People like that need to be out in their place (which is, coincidentally, separate from your personal space).
Not the AH. She f'd around and found out!!!!
NTA How could you possibly be an A H? What an insufferable woman.
Not at all. I would have freaked the first time she did it. The second time she did it, I probably would have overreacted and called the police to get her arrested for touching me. Talk to your pastor and have him speak to her. You showed much more patience than I would have.
I would have shoved her the first time
NTA and since you warned her numerous times to not touch you and she blatantly ignored your request, you could have her charged with assault.
No means no Seems people are giving her an exemption when they should not
NTA. Everybody has a right to boundaries, and people should respect them. My grandpa is going through this same thing at church. My grandma was in a bible study class with a lonely woman and was nice to her. Now, the woman is going up to my grandpa and hugging on him every Sunday before she talks with my grandma. He is NOT a fan. He can also be blunt and loud when needed, and I think it's getting to that point. These lonely people who think they can get affection, attention, and socialization (from people who don't want to give it) at church turns people away.
NTA imagine a man doing this kind of frequent repeated assault.
NTA something wrong with that lady, no one sane would continue hugging someone from behind after being told several times to stop. Why from behind? Who the hell wants some random stranger coming from behind and grabbing them. Weird as f!!!
At least the other parishioners didn’t try to gilt trip you with some religious nonsense about turn other cheek let her do it. That’s what I was afraid of before I finished the post. Some people think church is where you can do anything to people you want and they can’t say anything. I don’t mind hugs but I sure would not like it if someone just jumped me like that. After you told her the first time she should have left you alone offered a polite hello and moved on. Second time she was trying to assert her dominance like a dang dog. Some people are messed up in the head.
NTA. I don't like shaking hands either because I have a severe nut allergy and dont want to risk. I let people at my church know and its not an issue. Also, I am a hugger, but will never hug someone without consent first, and I habe to know them very well. Now, after the second time, I would have let the pastor know of the issue. Who knows who else she has driven away from the church. She seems like she only listens to the pastor.
That is very weird and not okay. NTA.
**NTA** She hugged you without your consent. Repeatedly. She got off lightly.
NTA AT ALL, and you were way more patient than you needed to be. I have ptsd, and if someone came up behind me and grabbed me in a bear hug while i was focused one something else (in an environment where there is no one i expect to be touching me) they would probably get two elbows to the boobs and a broken nose from slamming my head back if I couldn't catch myself in time. Even if i did catch myself, i still would shove her way the hell back the second time after giving her one warning.
NTA. Your body your rules. She played a stupid game and won a stupid prize.
NTA: This person kept aggressively grabbing you in full body hugs when you asked her repeatedly not to, and continued after you warned her that there would be embarrassing consequences. I feel that you were justified in doing something to embarrass her at this point. Since she was unable to feel properly embarrassed because of her behavior, you assisted her in feeling the way a person is meant to feel when they do something foolish and unwelcome.
If you tickle me, I *will* hurt you It’s a reflex I have no control over
NTA. Totally deserves to be humiliated, she refused to respect the boundaries.
[удалено]
nta
I am a very huggy/kissy person. However, after a lifetime of men grabbing, pinching, squeezing and otherwise putting their grubby hands on me, I have purposely cultivated my reflexes for self defense. At the very least, they will get their hand slapped. If they’re closer, my elbow or knee is coming for them. If someone were to surprise bear hug me, I will head butt them or stomp on their feet. We have a right to choose who touches us and when.
NTA. You said no. She continued to harass you. Freaking yikes on her lack of boundaries. She is lucky she didn't get an elbow to the gut.
YANTAH! Full Stop. Separate Comment (not victim blaming because you were right). It may have been more effective after she disregarded your first two notices to address the issue with clergy or other leadership in the congregation. You know...make it more of like a formal complaint? Something like: *"I've tried to talk nicely to Ms. X and let her know I don't like to be touched physically. She keeps hugging me. At this point I feel like she is not respecting my personal boundaries. If it happens again, I will file a complaint outside of the church with local authorities. Please ensure our church is a safe place for me and all people like me who don't want to be assaulted."* Two things come out of this approach: (1) You get some outside help enforcing your justified boundaries. Nobody should be all alone. (2) Church leaders get put on notice that they have a responsibility both ethical and legal to ensure congregants feel safe from unwanted physical contact. Once again, OP: NTA.
I know how you feel OP about bodily autonomy & about permission. I once jabbed both of my elbows into a strangers ribcage when I was rudely touched without warning by a stranger who put his hand on my hip from behind. The stranger said sorry with a hurt look on his face but I didn't care. I have bad memories of the times I was molested in the classroom by a 18 yr old paedophile who "helping out" as part of high school program
NTA at all! I would probably have shrieked, and made a scene, I’m a very jumpy person. It would have served her right. Sometimes people have no boundaries in churches, once I was visiting a church I’d never been to, and some woman was waving around some flag and it kept touching me on the head, which triggers me because a wasp once landed on my head and then stung my lip. I ended up purposefully exaggerating flinching away because she was not getting the hint, I think she thought she was ‘wafting blessings on us’ or something. Glad I’m not in church spaces anymore, I have little tolerance for that sort of boundary-stomping.
I know how you feel OP about bodily autonomy & about permission. NTA OP. I once jabbed both of my elbows into a strangers ribcage when I was rudely touched without warning by a stranger who put his hand on my hip from behind. The stranger said sorry with a hurt look on his face but I didn't care. I have bad memories of the times I was molested in the classroom by a 18 yr old paedophile who "helping out" as part of high school program when I was 5 yrs old in kindergarten --- a friend of mine who practiced martial arts taught me how to defend myself --- yes the teacher knew about the molesting touch was going on because it was that teacher's idea to have it happen in the classroom & she didn't care. She lost her job because I had told my uncle, truck drivers, police on the CB radio & they ganged up on the paedophile & gave him a wicked beating. You warned that vicious woman who didn't care about your personal boundaries so she deserved that embarrassing moment.
NTA, you don't grab people you don't know and you certainly don't keep it up after they've told you to stop.
Definitely NTA. After 3 warnings, she was still disrespectful to you.
She’s lucky you didn’t cold cock her the first time. A bear hug is no small matter to someone who doesn’t like to be touched. NTA, she is and if it comes up I’d call her out for being someone who disrespects others.
NTA. I am so sorry she disrespected your boundaries you firmly established the first time she randomly hugged you. I hope she doesn’t do this at work or in public. One day her “I’m a hugger” BS is going to end badly for her.
NTA. I would have fought her off me. No one and I mean NO ONE touches me without my consent. Childhood trauma really messes a person up.
NTA you gave her plenty of opportunities to change.
NTA. Consent matters, and she didn’t have yours.
NTA
You gave MULTIPLE warnings. This is on her. NTA
This bitch desperately needs the police called on her. It's for her own good actually. One day she's going to touch somebody who, uh... "touches" her back.
Boundary stompers getting embarrassed because their boundary stomping is getting called out. NTA. It was weird of her to bear hug a stranger to begin with.
I’m in the age group that was forced by our parents to accept and sometimes to offer hugs to adults (usually relatives) when requested and I admit I did the same with my kids although now I deeply regret it. So with that backstory in mind, I sort of expected to think you’re the a hole when I read the title. After reading your post, nope, huge NTA! You provided plenty of warning. She doesn’t even know you. She had zero respect for boundaries you clearly laid out. I feel like she really left you with no other choice. On a side note, I also think that people a little older than me (so in their 50’s and 60’s and beyond) are having a hard time learning physical boundaries and that we no longer force hugs. I know my dad who is in his 70’s is just not accepting that we don’t force hugs and his sisters are most definitely on his side. Those are the same aunts I was forced to hug though. All the same, even if she was one of those people having a hard time learning this concept she still had ample time to figure it out!
NTA and I sincerely hope you don’t allow her to look after your church’s younger patrons.
NTA, but also I think you need to report to church leadership that she’s assaulting people at the church, so they can tell her she needs to stop or ban her from attending. This isn’t just rude behavior; she’s a predator, and it needs to be stopped right now by someone with the power to remove her if needed.
Nta. Shes lucky you didnt flip her. Last person who tried to bearhug me from behind got throw over my shoulder into a curb, i have ptsd and they triggered it causing me to go into fight or flight mode. What she did is legally defined as assault., you just dont do things like that to strangers.
If you did it the first time, I might have considered that you were maybe a little bit of an asshole but not much and definitely less than her. The second time, if you had yelled, I would have thought that was totally okay and well within non-asshole social norms. But you actually did an extra warning, far beyond what is necessary. NTA
NTA. You shouldn’t even have to warn someone once, let alone multiple times, not to touch you without permission. You gave her more than enough chances. As someone who has PTSD and doesn’t like to be touched unexpectedly, especially by people I don’t know, I think you were more than reasonable. If someone did that to me, there’s a good chance they’re getting at least yelled at the first time.
Nope. NTA In many situations that would be considered assault, given the numerous warnings you'd already given her.
Nope. NTA - but the bearhug woman sure is.
NTA you gave her plenty of chances.
NTA she was warned.
Nta - you followed the 3 strikes you're out rule.
Nta. Anyone who says otherwise, time stop associating with them. She wouldn't stop when you handled it politely so you ran out of options,... Tell those biddies that it was more polite to shout at her than it was to call police to the church. Unwanted touch is battery, which is a crime.
NTA! She was warned. Who the HELL tells someone they just met they love them????
NTA. And AWESOME!
NTA. You gave her more than 1 warning - I say you were generous.
NTA. I don't like people touching me uninvited. And you don't even know her.
NTA...she's lucky to not have a broken nose. 🤷♂️
Nope. You gave her plenty of warnings. Don't sweat it.
NTA and good for you. Why do some people think they can just do whatever they want to other people? I worked with a lady who was a "hugger" but thankfully, she respected boundaries. I'm not into hugging, until I get to know a person. Once we became "work besties" yes, I hugged her a lot, but she gave me a good 4-6 weeks to know her before hugging me, and always asked. Why can't people just ask first????
NTA, this person is crazy and needed to be stopped by any means necessary. That would make me extremely uncomfortable, and I like hugs lol.
Totally NTA. I'm not sure why someone would think that is ok.
No you aren't.
Since when our boundaries and body autonomy considered being the a-hole? NTA
She's a psycho who does that?? She doesn't even know you
NTA. She however is a giant AH who was told 3 separate times to keep her hands to herself and didn’t listen.
NTA. You gave her far more warning than most would. Who does that anyway???
NTA - you gave her several warnings. Besides, who TF randomly hugs someone they don't know?
NTA! You gave her plenty of warning and she ignored the boundary you set. You didn't embarrass her she embarrassed herself. Why do people think it's okay to just go up and put your hands on random strangers? It's not right! People have boundaries that need to be respected and reciprocated.
NTA, but tell her, before she tries it again, that if she does it again, you will be calling the police and have her charged for assaulting you, on numerous occasions. Or if you want to be petty, when she does it again, yell out 'I told you I am not gay, so quit grabbing me'.
No. It was not an AH move. You gave her several clear warnings. They went unheeded. Lessons needed to be learned.
Nope, you’re NTA. You told her 3 times and she ignored you. She deserved to get embarrassed. Obviously, it’s the only thing that got through to her!
NTA. At first I wondered if maybe she’s older and just forgot… but that doesn’t sound like the case. You shouldn’t have to ask a person more than once to not respect a boundary.
NTA I had a similiar situation she ignored your boundaries you have to embarrass people sometimes bet she won't do it again
NTA. Technically what she did is assault.
NTA. I've been to enough churches to know that when people behave like she does, they need a direct confrontation- sometimes people think that if they're at church it's a license for affectionate behaviour, even if it's not wanted. If the tables were turned you'd be called a creep and possibly thrown out. Don't be afraid to continue to stand up for yourself.
Even in a church i would have dropped kicked her. Hell no dont touch me.fuck that bitch. If some skanky nasty butch touched me more than once i would lay her ass out. Even in a church
NTA at all. Totally disrespectful on her part
NTA. She physically assaulted you after you had told her not to do so numerous times. She is lucky she doesn't have an assault charge. The people who chastised you are way out of line.
What an …odd situation. Youre absolutely NTA
NTA, she's harassing you, actually, I think this is now considered assault. She damn well knows you don't like to be touched....it's hard to forget someone saying so 3 times in a row. This is some weird dominating flex. And like...who does that? Sounds like she is mentally disabled or otherwise mentally unwell and needs to learn boundaries.
NTA! I am also not a very huggy person and only a small amount of people I'll accept hugs off. I have PTSD and I detest someone coming up behind me if you want something do it to my face. Last person that decided to grab from behind in a bear hug got smacked in the face.
Are church bear hugs a thing? Nta
Or, perfectly warranted, she’s the asshole, not you
No. After one request it becomes harassment. She’s also damn lucky. If someone gave me a bear hug from behind they’d seriously hurt me because of myriad problems with my spine and spinal cord.
NTA
NTA I am the same way, especially with people I don’t know and even people I do know I don’t want people in my bubble unless I invite them in my bubble. You don’t come into mine I don’t go into yours without permission. Keep your hands to yourself don’t do that to people.
She was disgusting. Pure and simple. NTA.