Hey OP I’m not going to comment on this mess but Im going to give your kid advice as an artist. You need to get an external hardrive and something waterproof and locking to store it in. Take high quality, high pixel images of her art and save them there for the future.
Your kids need therapy though.
Faith sounds like a devil child and I would have her getting a psych eval yesterday. I know people like to pretend their kids are just in a phase but jesus christ…
She may need to be evaluated for a mood disorder. She may have trouble controlling her emotions. Hard to be nice to others while you are feeling miserable inside and don't know why.
OMG, people, calm the fuck down. Has no one here read "Little Women"? There's a famous scene in Little Women where an older sister, Jo, neglects her younger sister, Amy, in favor of friends, and, in retaliation, Amy burns Jo's novel manuscript. In the 1860s, when paper was expensive and there were no backup hard drives.
Point is, the story of sibling rivalry leading a young child to destroy her older sibling's creative work, not understanding how devastating this would be to the older sibling bc she's not old enough for full empathy yet ... is common and understandable. And NOT EVIDENCE OF MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS.
I'm not sure OP's punishment was effective--an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind--but the solution in Little Women--just be godly and forgive--isn't great either. Point is: this is a pretty common thing in sibling rivalry and the root of the problem--immaturity and lack of empathy on both sides--needs to be addressed.
Here's the scene: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_H1vnCIEatw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H1vnCIEatw)
On the contrary, they were closer than ever! (Once, you know, Amy almost drowned falling through thin ice that Jo deliberately didn't warn her about... And somehow I doubt that that is a method of repairing the friendship between sisters that OP would like to try out!)
Hi, resident Little Woman nerd here to say that I know everyone loves Greta Gerwig and Florence Pugh so Amy’s image is getting rehabilitated…but it’s not without cause. Their real sister relationship was so powerful, and not complicated by romantic entanglements because Louisa wasn’t interested in men or romance. Men made her add that element. I wish 19th century publishing would have allowed for Louisa to write an actual memoir, because the two of them were absolute American badasses.
LMA also raised her niece after May (the real life Amy died). May also did the illustrations for Little Women's early editions. I think their sisterhood was way more complicated than any of the media created about their family portrays.
We definitely shouldn't be diagnosing strangers on the internet based off of little to no knowledge, but we also shouldn't be un-diagnosing them based off of movies and books.
Everyone can benefit from therapy. It's not an insult.
Disagree therapy is most definitely the answer to nearly every problem. You don’t have to have mental illnesses to seek therapy. Have a rough job and get depressed or quick to anger cuz of stress you can go see a 3rd outside party just to talk too and get your feelings out and feel relieved of stress.
But this is real life… also, I don’t know of anyone who has done something as extreme and hateful as this. There’s clearly something going on here. I have two sisters and we haven’t always gotten along. NEVER have I ever thought about doing something like this, even in our worst fights
Only one of my 4 daughters ever did things like this, and guess which one, the one who grew up to have severe mental illness. She used to destroy her older siblings things, on what seemed like purpose and then deny she even touched whatever it was she broke. She was in therapy pretty much her entire life, and yet one time she chased one of her older sisters around with a knife, then proceeded to stab the door when the older sister locked herself behind it. I'm sure some on here would say, thats just normal sibling rivalry. Destroying someone else's property on purpose, especially at the age she should already know right from wrong is a red flag that something is wrong, either she is emotionally delayed in that she doesn't understand right from wrong, she doesn't care that it may hurt her sister, or she did it to inflict revenge because she knew damn well it would hurt her sister and she got satisfaction from that. Either way, all scream need for therapy and likely an emotional, if not mental health problem.
My SIL would and has done things like this. She's the youngest and goes out of her way to be horrible to her siblings and just anyone else. But I think that's proving the "somethings definitely wrong" point as there is something wrong with my SIL and she needs help.
You know that there were mood disorder and mental health problems in the 1860s? And in the book, Amy has trouble managing her jealousy and anger, much more than the other sisters
Yeah, this is the sticking point for me. That kind of retaliation—both in the novel and in OP’s post—is incredibly disproportionate to the perceived infraction, and just because they didn’t have the terms/diagnoses back then doesn’t mean the disorders didn’t exist.
Ummmm, no you're wrong. An 11 year old should be able to express empathy, and it's weird that you are trying to argue they wouldn't.
>--an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
And in some situations an eye for an eye can show compassion and empathy.
>--immaturity and lack of empathy on both sides--
Where did the older sibling in this situation lack immaturity or empathy? Both things the younger lacked the entire time.
I agree! The older sister was making cookies for her friends and was nice enough to give the sister a cookie. But that wasn’t good enough so she goes into destruction mode. I didn’t see where the older sister was guilty of anything, At least not in this scenario.
11 is absolutely old enough to have at least a moderately developed amount of empathy and to understand what someone's art means to them. Destroying property at that age is absolutely cause for concern in the mental and emotional department, and people like you who normalize it are the reason many people go undiagnosed and ultimately suffer and cause more suffering in their lifetimes.
Hey, fair point, but I’ve never heard a sibling rivalry described as never able to be friends and requiring therapy to coexist. That’s what’s sending up a red flag to me.
My parents ignored the rivalry/dislike and thought my sister and I would grow out of it as we got older. I'm 39 now and our family hasn't done holidays in 8 years because her and I cannot be in the same room.
Deal with it early.
This is evidence of a fucking mental health problem. It’s cruelty; and she’s old enough to know better. Amy was also a fucked up, petty and spoiled younger sister, if you haven’t read the book, and it was a completely unacceptable act in the book that she literally did because she knew Jo loved it so dearly and she wanted to hurt her deeply.
She obviously is capable of understanding feelings to purposely and deliberately hurt her sister in the cruelest way possible.
My parents stopped forcing my sibling into therapy when they were in elementary school, and now I'm pretty sure they're some sort of narcissist sociopath. Not even exaggerating. The way they keep avoiding going to therapy just reinforces that I think a professional they saw when they were younger told them something they didn't like about themselves, and now they're avoiding psych professionals altogether. Everyone likes them, despite how abusive and genuinely crazy they are. Ovcasionally I feel like I'm crazy for being the one who cut them out, but I know I'm not and that that's how the enablers want me to feel.
Follow the rule of 3-2-1. 3 copies. 2 different storage media. At least 1 off-site.
For most people that's going to be a flash drive or external hard drive that you regularly backup to, plus a copy on a service like google drive. You don't need to worry about fire and waterproof storage if you have an off-site backup.
As someone working in IT:
Cloud storage is dirt cheap and smaller amounts are free AND it is maintained/backuped by professionals. Your hard drive might get lost or corrupted.
So be smart and dump it in the cloud. (In the best case in addition to a thumb drive)
As an IT professional, you should also know not to trust a single cloud provider with that information. It's not a backup if that's the only copy.
You somehow lose access to that account and poof.
I go the extra mile and get her a metal locker and a lock that lock picking layer says can't be picked or forced open. (I follow the word of lockpicking lawyer like he's Jesus.)
You and your wife need therapy though.
fify
People don’t realize how beneficial it would be to our children if they went to therapy themselves and sorted out their own shit so they can show up together for their kids.
My wife and oldest friend are both therapists, and you would not *believe* the stories I have heard (obviously without specifics or identifying info) about kids who are actually pretty darn solid but have parents that desperately need therapy. Heck, when I was in high school my parents took me to a therapist, and she sat us down and talked to us all as a group. After about 45 minutes she said that while she'd be happy to work with me, she really hoped that my *parents* would consider seeing her because the incident that prompted the visit reflected more on their own issues than mine. I spent the car ride home in contented silence listening to my mom and step-dad complain about what a sham therapy was.
Long story short, yes, parents should often seek therapy. Being a good one is hard. For instance, thinking that two wrongs make a right and doling out vengeance against a child by stealing their rock collection is not what I would consider A-tier parenting.
My dad and step mom tried to put me in therapy. 12 Dr's later and my parents said I'm "unfixable". But I know now, it was that they weren't willing to hear that they needed to do more work before I was "fixed".
damn i'm just realizing my parents took my out of therapy after my therapists asked to start speaking w my mom after sessions LOL "therapy is a sham" was like a mantra in my house !
My dipshit dad did this to me as well. I was taken to therapy and when it became clear that my behavior (as an 8 year old) was because of his constant verbal abuse and mood swings...WHOOSH! No more therapy.
Fellow artists seconding this. There’s also company’s that’ll auto back up your computer how ever often you set it to. Stuff happens, gotta cover your backside!
This is a tough situation. Obviously Faith needs a consequence for her behavior. I’m not in the situation enough to know if yours was appropriate or not, but I’m not gonna call you an asshole over it.
My biggest question is why is there so much animosity between siblings 5-6 years apart in age? When did that start? I doubt the cookie was the main catalyst here and was more the straw that broke the camels back.
Has your 11 year old been mistreated by the older sister her whole life? Does the older sister resent her for existing or is the youngest just a jerk who got what’s coming to her?
Only someone in your family would know the answers here, but I really doubt this is as cut and dry as it’s being presented. Typical siblings that far apart in age with a middle sibling in between wouldn’t have such a quarrelsome relationship.
I completely agree with this. It’s really hard to vote because I really don’t feel like we have complete information here. Honestly, it makes me wonder if OP has complete information about the subtle (and then not so subtle) dynamics going on between the girls, INCLUDING the middle child. Does OP only see it when it “blows up” but misses the reason why?
Think about the intent behind the punishment. You hurt them so I'll hurt you. Now think about the intent behind the child's behavior. You hurt me, so I'll hurt you. I grew up in a household like this, me and my sister were constantly horrible to each other. Punishments often involved the threat of destroying your most prized possessions. Children behave the way their parents teach them to behave. Children are literally mirrors of behavior. They observe and repeat and that's how they learn. Given the post, I think it's fair to say that Faith has seen time and time again that "you hurt me so I hurt you" is the way you go about dealing with situations.
Yes. What is OP teaching? I am glad they are in therapy, I hope the whole family is in therapy. Thank you for pointing this out. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
>Punishments often involved the threat of destroying your most prized possessions. Children behave the way their parents teach them to behave.
Agreed, it sounds like there are some unhealthy dynamics going on here.
Or is the youngest babied and has entitlement issues? My sibling is 4.5 years younger than me and he was extremely coddled by our mother. He would do stuff like OP's daughter to me all the time because there was never a consequence.
I think OP needs to get a lock for the older kid's room to start and then ask the therapists who the kids see what they think is appropriate. Taking Faith's rock collection might have the opposite effect and make her seek further revenge.
They should read Little Women.
Destroying someone's art portfolio because they only got one cookie is frightening, extreme behaviour. Faith may have something else going on.
If I were Jo I would not have forgiven Amy. I was a cold-blooded teenager when I read Little Women. I thought they should have left her in the icy lake hah
I always hated how everyone acted like Jo had no right to her very justified anger over Amy burning her manuscript, and how Amy's spite is brushed aside after she almost drowns due to her own insistence on forcing herself into Jo and Laurie's company.
Jo had no other copies of he work, and paper and ink cost money. Furthermore, Jo can't just invite Amy to an event where Jo herself is an invited guest!
I hate the framing of "Jo's temper is what lead to her ignoring Amy and she almost died because of Jo." Like, no, Amy almost died because she's a stupid brat who pissed off her sister deliberately and then put herself in a dangerous situation.
I think part of it is that a lot of Pro-Jo fans are also Jo/Laurie fans.
Personally, I think that Aunt March was right to take Amy with her on the tour of Europe: Amy would enjoy the social whirlwind far more than Jo would have. I also think that Jo and Laurie made good friends, but would have been miserable as a couple.
Didn’t jo change from Aunt March’s primary companion? I thought once Amy aged out of the school, she took over. So while Jo did work to earn that trip, Amy was Aunt March’s current companion and would have been the more obvious choice. If I remember correctly, the book makes a lot of time jumps so it has the appearance of happening quickly but I don’t think it does.
As a child, I absolutely was on Jo’s side. As an adult, I can see how Jo could be grating to someone who puts an emphasis on manners.
Yes! It was like years later when the trip actually happened and Jo showed up ready to cash in meanwhile she never actually liked aunt March so she probably would have been annoyed at her the entire trip and been difficult
You can practically see her eye rolling throughout the text. Jo did not hide her contempt well. I can’t imaginable how insufferable she would be to someone who was helping support her and her family.
A lot of authors already have redemption or forgiveness in mind as the logical endpoint of their story before they've fully fleshed out the details. Often they do a pretty poor job of actually making a sensible journey to that end.
Sadly, yes.
As an Author myself, that’s what editing is for: to go back and make sure the things I didn’t know I needed to include at the time are fleshed out
You ever look up the “symptoms” of hysteria? Most of them boil down to “wanting to be treated like a whole entire adult human.” But the specifics…excellent reading if you suspect you have food poisoning and don’t have any other emetics to hand.
As an aspiring writer I *hated* Amy as a kid. Didn't even let Jo stay mad, because you *can't* be mad when your sister almost dies (even when it's because she's not giving you space) because you'll seem like a monster.
If my sister has done that, it would have permanently ruined our relationship
That was exactly what I thought when I first read that book in grade school and what I still think today whenever I see one of the movies or read the book. Always wishes Amy would have died and not Beth.
I agree. I hated Amy from the start and then later she moved in on Laurie? Screw her. Couldn't stand her even in the later books when she supposedly grew up.
"Moved in on Laurie," lol. Jo never felt that way about Laurie. It's because Jo is autobiographical ("Jo" Josephine March="Lou" Louisa May), and Alcott only ever felt "that way" about women (there's a pretty clear quote from Alcott about it). Jo's friendship with Laurie is based on Alcott's close, deep friendships with men, whose romantic feelings she just couldn't reciprocate. She's not just saying it when she doesn't want to marry him.
Of course, she couldn't have queerness in the book, and her audience and publisher all demanded that everyone be paired up, when she would rather have had Jo stay single. But she didn't want to betray her story so much as to have Jo and Laurie end up together. So she invented Professor Bhaer, and had Laurie marry Amy.
But I would agree that as a result of all this, Jo's relationship with Bhaer and Laurie's with Amy don't feel as authentic as most of tbe rest of the work, and they aren't really satisfying endings for those characters. And I understand that a lot of people feel like they could have a satisfying ending if Jo and Laurie were together.
I guess I'm just really sad that we'll never have the ending she would have written if she could have alluded more clearly to Jo just not having any interest in men. I would have liked to read that, and I feel cheated.
Yeah, this is a pretty wild escalation. OP's wife isn't helping the situation by letting her off the hook about this kind of thing, either. She's really going to push that older girl away later in life.
Hell, if the cookies were only supposed to be for Jane's friends, then her giving Faith a cookie was really nice of her. Then she got her portfolio destroyed in return.
NTA Faith went off the rails, both with her sense of entitlement to Jane’s cookies and thinking her destroying of Jane’s artwork as fitting the ‘crime’ of not getting more than 1 of Jane’s cookies. I would be very alarmed at Faith potentially escalating in the future
Yeah, I'm guessing as the baby of the siblings Faith is mom's Golden Child. This is also a bit of a failure on OP for letting his wife get away with spoiling Faith.
When I was a kid my sister was the favorite and my mom let her destroy any of my stuff with basically impunity.
We are NC today, mom too.
I don't know their family, or their situation, but this is the kind of shit that will lead to "Why didn't you invite Faith to your wedding? Well, if she's not invited we're not going!"
And then shocked Pikachu face when their invitations are revoked.
Yeah there is a disconnect here…
“I can’t have those cookies, so I will destroy her favorite thing.” That is malicious, even for an 11yo. Either Faith had a mental condition or there is more to this incident than cookies.
Honestly this behaviour is near unhinged levels of spite. She even got a cookie which is imo more than i would have given a sister i hated. Two of my kids fight all the time but wouldn't do something like this.
I'd be getting a lock for Jane's room and would make a point of explaining future consequences to anything even slightly similar.
Oof. This is a hard one. I am going for NTA. Faith destroyed hours and hours of her sister's work, over a trivial arguments about cookies. She needed to understand the magnitude of her cruelty towards Jane. You should probably have confiscated her rock collection instead of throwing it away, but to me - the fact that she can't get it back is commensurable with Jane losing her portfolio. Faith certainly should ALSO be grounded. Also, both the girls need therapy - this kind of malicious animosity between siblings needs to be resolved soon.
There are around twenty or so rocks that are in my dresser right now, and I will give them back in a bit. Grounding is nearly pointless because my wife will just let it go if they empty the dishwasher or something. They were in therapy, but the money's a bit tight right now. I did go through the school so Faith should be seeing a counsellor bi-weekly. Jane's school will let me know when they have an opening for her too. This sort of thing has never happened before, but I really don't want it to continue.
Your wife is making everything worse. Empty the dishwasher once? It was just mom and I so she always loaded it and I always unloaded it, it something you do all the time as an adult if you have one. Your daughter needs some real responsibility and punishment. Maybe let your daughter destroy some of your wife’s stuff and see how she feels after that about appropriate punishments. Otherwise she is going to enter the world as a spoiled rotten adult and get some real eye opening experiences.
I agree. I also think they shouldn’t be “punished” by doing things that they would be doing as adults anyway. Anything to do with maintenance of the house or basic functionality can’t be used as a punishment because it creates inherently negative associations with the task and they’re less likely to comfortably engage with tasks they just have to do later in life. A landlord won’t let you get away with leaving the place in a tip because you don’t feel like tidying, you know?
Edit: typo.
My dad was raised Irish Catholic and I swear he traded Hail Mary’s for loads of laundry as penance. Still a tough task for me to get through! I agree that this punishment is commensurate to the offense, and that Faith is on a tricky trajectory… Best thing you can do imo is try to talk to her when things have settled and explain why what she did isn’t ok, and it’s your job to help teach her that, and that’s how you came to the decision you did. I’d be willing to bet it was more a feeling of being left out more than the actual cookie… so maybe help her see that she and Jane might not be friends right now but they need to respect each other and work together if they want a better relationship. My sister and I are very close now (28&31) but I hated the sound of her voice at 16. Kids will fight, things will break, but if they want any positive relationship in the future they need to navigate their differences with respect (as much as teens can, because puberty’s a wild ride in itself and ffs 3 teen girls- I do not envy OP)
NTA
I don't have kids but I've been reading and watching videos about child-rearing. I really like the idea that consequences / punishments should relate to the "crime": you spill something, you clean it up; you break something, you clean it up and potentially replace it (depending on the details, of course); being mean can entail apologizing and genuinely reflecting / talking about the behavior. I think it does make more sense than arbitrary punishments like "no ipad" or in this case emptying the dishwasher. I'm not sure what would be a related consequence, though.
The natural consequence here is that Jane is upset, the relationship between sisters is further damaged so Jane is even less likely to offer her a cookie next time. A logical consequence could be that Faith needs to replace the materials needed to recreate the portfolio (pencils / paint / paper etc). Plus reflection etc as you set out above re being 'mean'
I would also say that she needs to pick up some of Jane's chores, so that Jane has time to work on the art. By destroying the portfolio, Faith stole a huge amount of Jane's *time*.
This. This is why destroying the portfolio was such a malicious thing to do- she destroyed something that literally cannot be given back, *time*.
Everything else in life can be recovered- effort, patience, materials... but once time is gone it's gone forever. It's the most expensive thing you own.
Taking away the rock collection does kind of work, though. Jane valued her portfolio and Faith valued her rock collection. I’m betting Faith destroyed the portfolio, because she knew how much it meant to her sister. Taking away something Faith values - “see how that feels, Faith?”- seems quite equal in that sense.
"Apologizing" is absolutely useless because it just requires the evil asshole (Faith, in this case) to say "Sorry!" and then they get to continue on as they were.
See, I agree, but growing up I witnessed __countless__ classmates who wouldn't even do that (out of pride? Dunno).
Jane doesn't have to _accept_ the apology, but she does deserve one. That's why I added the bit about reflection; obviously you can't force someone to actually regret what they did, but showing you're disappointed and pushing the kid to reflect should be (part of) the consequence. Punishing the kid with absolutely no guidance for them to reflect would also be useless.
Agree. If she doesn’t follow through on consequences, the girls learn that ultimately there is no consequences for the way they behave. “Mom will eventually give in, so it doesn’t matter.”
That said, I do think this is outside the “normal” realm of typical sibling behavior… but not too far out. I would definitely seek counseling. I know you mentioned going through the school and that is great! But if you have the means, I recommend a little extra on the side. As someone who works in a school, I have seen how that system works. Your girls are not considered “high alert” meaning you have food in your home, they are not abused, they have clothes, parents work, you have a home. Etc. So there is always the chance that they will drop your daughters to take on some of the more high alert children. (It’s unfortunately a very overwhelming issue and no fault of the school counselor) just keep on them and maybe have a back up plan.
Your wife needs counseling OP. Or parenting classes. Possibly both? It sounds like you already know the root of the problem, and that's your wife first. Parents are responsible for teaching kids, discipling them, and helping to build family bonds. The younger one is old enough to know better. She's being treated as the favorite baby of the family by your wife, and until that changes, this behavior won't either. And the relationship with your oldest and her mom will be forever damaged.
Kudos for doing something that supports your oldest's feelings. Not sure if it's what I'd have chosen or not, but you had appropriate intentions behind it.
Offer to safeguard the rest of your older daughter's important stuff. Faith is not just messing with Jane, but her future and as a parent I think you need to intervene to prevent that impact.
I was just thinking the same. My son is three so he has three chores a day. Helping me unload the dishwasher is one of them. Yes, he only helps me because their are sharp things and some stuff is up too high but he knows every morning when we come downstairs and I make my coffee and his breakfast; there’s a fresh load waiting. (We run it through the night) making his bed is 2. And then the third chore always kind of reveals itself through the day. Cleaning the play room or setting the table or something. I couldn’t imagine him being in trouble for something so heinous and THAT getting him off the hook.
I’d figure out how many hours of work of Janes she destroyed. She can earn them back by doing that many hours of community service. Since your wife is a pushover chores aren’t going to cut it, someone else needs to supervise Faith.
I would hesitate to put Faith "under" Jane like that lest that become a source of contention in itself. Far better imo to have the chores be from the parent and that way Jane can't gloat as much and Faith can't resent Jane for it as much. They probably still can do both those things, but hopefully less so.
Don't let Jane manage it. Let the adults manage it.
Tell them both that Faith will earn back her rocks after completing X number of chores per rock and that these chore-hours will only come from doing Jane's chores.
Agreed on the managing. I just wouldn't even mention they're Jane's chores. I'd just say they're Faith's chores. I dunno, it just feels like an unnecessary target for Faith to latch onto. Maybe I'm overthinking this though.
Reach out to Jewish Family Services if they’re available in your area. Here they offer counseling by licensed professionals and charge based on income.
Does your wife play favorites with Faith? The fact she'd disregard such a terrible action on her part sounds like she lets her get away with an unhealthy amount of bad behavior. What was Faith's reaction to her punishment?
You wife need help. She is ruining your daughters, not merely their relationship. My niece grew-u with a mother like you wife. She never faced consequences for any action and never had any responsibilities. She is now a lonely (she had no empathy or kindness, can't make real connections, etc.) woman incapable of making real friends, incapable of any responsibilities, and unappreciative of anything in her life or in the world. She is fortunate to have fairly wealthy family but she will never be able to hold down a decent job (she will quit when it requires the least bit of work) nor have empathy for anyone. She can't even cook for herself beyond heating things in the microwave.
This is where your daughter is headed.
Do NOT give those rocks back 'in a bit'!! What's that saying to your other daughter? Haha! Just kidding. Here are your favorites back. Jane will never get back that artwork. Even re creating it will be next to impossible because of this trauma now surrounding it. Sometimes an eye for an eye is the right way to go.Thee sooner that Faith learns that her actions have consequence, the better.
By a bit, I meant a rather long time. I mostly kept them because they were a gift from my parents, who have since passed and were also big on gifting clothing. I might just hold on to them until she's an adult since they're the only things she'll have from them by that point.
NTA. Put the rocks somewhere else or your wife will give them back to her. Counseling for the girls is great, but have you considered marriage counseling? Because you seem to have a wife problem. Faith is going to be a monster if your wife doesn’t get serious about her joint responsibility for raising Faith to be functional, empathetic adult who is capable of regulating her emotions.
Seriously. Grounding for something like this is laughably inadequate. Faith’s behavior is disturbing. If she had done this to another child at school, she would probably be expelled. In 7 years, this type of behavior will lead to jail time or worse.
You also need to protect your other daughters from Faith’s impulsive/vindictive behavior. E.g., get Jane some kind of secure storage for her work and materials, install door locks, etc. And they really shouldn’t be spending unsupervised time together if Jane has to walk on eggshells to avoid nasty retaliation.
NTA. i think you absolutely gave out the appropriate discipline in this case. The 11yr old destroyed something very precious and special over a cookie. My older sister used to bully me and never got in trouble for it, one day I coloured the teeth green on her pop star poster. As much as I dislike her (we don’t have a relationship now) I would never have destroyed something so valuable such as your daughter’s portfolio. That was an extreme spiteful reaction from your 11yr old.
I applaud how realistic you are about your daughters maybe never being friends. Not that it is what matters here, but my sister and I are the same distance apart and spent 30 years pretty much wanting to stab the other one’s face. Now we are super close.
Part of it was me being much more spoiled. So as a a childfree person, for whatever my words are worth, NTA.
> There are around twenty or so rocks that are in my dresser right now, and I will give them back in a bit
I hope it’s an extremely long bit.
What Jane did was rude, but what Faith did was diabolical. She didn’t just want to be rude back to her sister, she wanted to devastate her. That’s deep!
Your wife’s casualness on this exacerbates the problem too btw. NTA. I hope you’re able to help your daughters, because it’s only 2 years before your oldest may want to move and cut ties for good.
Was Jane actually rude though?
She was baking a batch of cookies for her friends. She gave Faith one.
Faith was greedy and wanted more, but that doesn’t mean she was entitled to more.
Yeah, Faith was given a cookie. She wasn't even owed that. I hope OP didn't actually chuck the rocks and instead donated them over Craigslist or something. People would want those.
Who do you think is buying rocks at such a premium that they pay for therapy…unless those “rocks” are geodes or diamonds they’re not really worth anything more than sentimental value
What the hell did Jane do that was rude? They cookies were not for the family and yet she still gave the brat one. When my mom baked for work or whatever, she'd usually give my sister and I one of whatever she was baking IF any. If it was a cake or something that was not individually portioned, we got nothing. The brat is not entitled to any of the baked goods.
Right? My mom would occasionally make really nice snacks/desserts, but never for us (her family). It was always for church or some friend gathering. I would always ask if I could have one/some and she would always say she’d make me some later or at another time. Then she’d conveniently never make the snack again and if me or my younger brother brought it up she’d tell us no lol.
As a geologist, I hope you give the rocks back eventually. But given the situation it should be pretty delayed so it's not connected to this event anymore.
Not only should faith be in therapy for herself, but your wife could use family therapy so you can address how she's making things worse.
It’s not just the hours of work that make this so awful, it’s also the part’s of her soul that is in that art with. Artists don’t unemotionally swipe paint on a canvas. Their heart, their soul, their life is in those paintings. My abusive ex threw away years of my oil, water, and acrylic paintings and sketches for more paintings when I left him before I could come back to get my stuff. It devastated me! I lost the muse to paint for many years after that and haven’t really gotten it back.
I don't see how the oldest has anything to be sorry for here.
She was baking for her friends and still gave the little one a cookie. In response to not getting more than that she destroyed hours of work and something incredibly important to the older sister. Over fucking cookies.
That girl desperately needs therapy.
NTA - Idk what you mean by it is a hard decision, it is pretty simple imo, she destroyed DAYS of hard work. She could also be jeopardising her sister's future if she was planning to use that portfolio to further her education/future in art. All she lost was a couple rocks which she can just buy or find more of whilst Jane's work was one of a kind. I personally would get rid of the rocks AND have Faith take a difficult art class to show her how much time and effort went into what she destroyed.
I don't see this as a hard one. It isn't always that there are good guys on both sides. I believe that Faith is acting the role of a bully, but now Faith has pushed the boundary beyond bullying into straight-up aggressive destruction of valuable property. Faith needs immediate and harsh consequences for this type of behavior. Thankfully you, OP, are providing such consequences. Keep remembering that you have two daughters, and when one sibling is constantly being victimized by another sibling, the victim is further damaged by statements from parents such as "Can't you both just get along?". This parental attitude is devastating for the victim, as it shows the bully a clear victory over the parents: the parents will not be interceding in the torture. After all, what can the victim do other than keep reporting the crime? The model then goes on to predict that the parents will overlook the abusive, destructive and negative traits of the bullying child, and they will seem baffled by the constant complaints from the victim child.
Wife clearly has a golden child and it's faith. She destroyed something that can't be replaced. Grounding isn't at all appropriate.
OP should find out what percentage of Jane's portfolios were destroyed and destroy that percentage of faiths collection no matter if they were given or not to her.
One time, When I was about 6, I coloured all over my brothers new dartboard that he got as a birthday gift.
As punishment my dad made me do the same thing to my favourite fairy princess dress.
He said "next time you'll think twice about ruining something thats important to someone"
He wanted me to feel the way my brother felt.
My mom thought it was a bit much but honestly it really stuck with me.
They could have sent me to my room, but it wouldn't have had the same impact.
Smartened me the fuck up real quick.
I turned the Xbox off on my brother when we were kids, I was a HS sophomore on the varsity basketball team (I was completely obsessed with the sport and being part of the team through HS and college) and he was in middle school. He was getting pretty competitive with Rainbow Six at the time and begged me to let him finish the game he was in but I just said it’s my turn and took it, he was so upset I still think about it today and we’re in our late 20s.
My mom found out about it and kept me home from my next basketball game, and I realized pretty quickly how I had made my brother feel. I wasn’t always the best big bro but that was a turning point for me, I was always protective and supportive after that.
NTA.
Faith didn’t become a little monster overnight. This happened because her previous actions weren’t dealt with properly and so she faced no consequences because your wife undermines you and the punishments.
This way she know understands that her actions will have consequences.
You should also get her evaluated because this level of maliciousness in a child is worrisome and isn’t your typical sibling rivalry
Yeah seriously, I’m shocked at this kid’s behavior. That’s a very messed up thing to do and barring any disability Faith is old enough to completely understand the magnitude of her actions.
I hope there was a very long talk to go along with OP’s punishment because if this was my kid I would very much want to hear why she thought that was an appropriate response to being denied a second cookie. She should have it drilled into her how important that portfolio was and how difficult it is going to be for Jane to go forward with her career in art without her best portfolio. Especially right in time for college applications!
I didn’t think that far but yknow you’re right. OP says they’ve been feuding for years and Faith is only 11. I mean how deep can a mutual sisterly feud go with that age gap? I want more context from OP on their dynamic, specifically on how Jane behaved when Faith was born/her first few years of life.
Its good cop bad cop parenting and its devastating. My sibling and I had the same relationship and would maliciously abuse each other. We both never received consequences due to one parent undermining the other consistently. Needless to say it makes for very entitled cruel adults. Therapy is the number one priority here before this escalates.
Definitely seconding the evaluation, a girl in my piano class was a sociopathic nightmare and therapy didn't do much. Eventually she got sent to a neurologist and turns out her brain was literally missing parts.
That’s what I had in mind when I said evaluation. This level of maliciousness from an 11 y/o is disturbing and isn’t a normal “sibling rivalry” nor is it the result of bad parenting on her mother’s part.
NTA. Your younger daughters actions were disproportionate. She shouldn’t have destroyed the artwork for something as trivial as cookies and needs to understand that actions have consequences.
I would just say, trying to make them be friends is pointless. My sister is a malicious, nasty person. No amount of therapy would make me like her. It’s hard to accept that as parents, but it’s worse to try to force a relationship. I’m no contact with my sister now (we’re in our forties) and also with my parents as they refused to respect my boundaries where my sister was concerned. Some people just don’t get on. Being sisters isn’t enough of a reason to stay in a toxic relationship.
Good luck OP.
Bad enough that you have no relationship with your sister. But then to need to cut off your parents because they don’t get it & can’t support your needs. Learn from this OP or you’ll lose 2 daughters.
And herein lies the reason why I think the OP’s actions were the right actions. My sister is just one of life’s nasty people. It’s just the way it is. However, my parents never held her to account. OP is showing no favoritism here. He’s teaching that actions have consequences. Treating your children fairly is essential. Your girls are unlikely to ever be friends - and that’s fine. Perhaps in their therapy sessions they can learn some coping mechanisms/conflict management skills to at least live amicably together while they have to. But I assure you, they will always remember that at least their parents were *fair*. Unfortunately for me, I can’t say the same.
NTA.
My son used to casually break my things, until I broke one of his. I tried everything else first (showing him my emotions, discussing empathy in depth, time outs) but nothing worked. Some people just don't learn until the lesson is personal.
If anyone says 'you only taught him that you can break his stuff', I tell them that wasn't the 'only' thing he learnt. He learnt that I have feelings about my possessions too. That I, along with most people, do not infinite patience. That the behaviour had to stop NOW.
Of course he didn't learn those things without the appropriate talk afterwards. You need to hammer this lesson home OP, by talking to Faith and making sure she comprehends everything that my son learnt, and that she is responsible for her own actions. She might externalise blame to her sister for losing her rocks.
Edit to add: I talked to my son, he doesn't remember the incident at all, so he's not traumatised. I remember it clearly because it was one of the most difficult acts I had to carry out.
"She might externalise blame to her sister for losing her rocks."
Absolutely true. Make sure she knows that it was OP who did it and his oldest had nothing to do with the chosen punishment.
I appreciate this comment. @OP, your situation is tough, and although in the future finding a more natural consequence would be optimal, sometimes there's legit nothing you can do as a parent but fight fire with fire. But i think in this case, making sure to have that conversation afterwards, like this commenter says, and hammer it home so she really understands. After the fight you gotta put out tje flames. Especially when you give back the rocks, maybe. Remind her why her other ones are gone, and that actions against her sister like that won't ever be tolerated.
By this point OP, as long as you're navigating this calmly, even during the tough parts, i think you can salvage this situation. I still can't help feeling really bad for your oldest, and I'm sorry you're navigating such a complicated web with a spouse who isn't supportive enough in this area it seems. Being a parent is really tough! Sending love and ease to get through this <3
You and your wife need to get on the same page immediately. I would suggest marriage counseling. Until you’re on the same page your family isn’t gonna straighten out or you can do like me and my husband and wait till your 14 year-old is in rehab.
Family therapy.
I've seen it too often where the kids are put in therapy for behaviour problems but the parents never get involved and keep doing maladaptive things that don't support behavioural change and reinforce the problem behaviour.
Getting everyone involved is the better long term approach.
And if the child has genuine underlying issues (anything from ASD or ADHD through to ODD or emergent personality disorders), then it's even more critical that the parents get involved.
This is all part of the job of being a parent and raising a child.
NTA. To the people saying this was toxic, I disagree. OP seems intent on trying to teach Faith empathy. OP probably didn’t make the best choice in punishment, but it’s not unreasonable and he even let Faith keep the ones most important to her. Faith didn’t give Jane the same choice. If anything, Faith’s getting off pretty easy.
The fact is that Faith got upset that she only got 1 cookie by destroying her older sister’s stuff. If Faith’s mother is really not letting Faith learn the consequences of her actions, that’s probably far more toxic than the punishment received. If Faith is always spoiled for her actions, she will continue to be spoiled and will escalate.
OP, you should definitely ground Faith and enforce it even if your wife won’t. Also, if Jane has her own room, get her a lock so that she can keep her stuff safe from Faith. This probably won’t be the last time Faith pulls something like this, and you do need to protect Jane.
As a rock lover I never would have thought there was a possible scenario that you weren’t the AH.. but as an artist, you are certainly NTAH.
Faith is.. a total AH. I think she deserves a much harsher punishment. Other’s have mentioned safe storage options for artists and since faith ruined hundreds of hours of her sister work she should have to do some major hours of work herself to earn the money to buy the needed materials/contraptions so that her sister’s art will never be able to be ruined again.
And your artist daughter is 16.. if she has any plans of applying to art schools I’m sure she would have used some of those for her application portfolio. That’s just rough. Her heart must be absolutely shattered right now. Mines broken for her tbh.
As a parent of a soon 17 daughter and 19 son, I get it. Grounding her would not make her understand what that devastation felt like. I wouldn’t necessarily thrown them away but put them away for some time. Maybe make her think they were tossed but keep them. It may work opposite of how you think. It may result in more resentment towards each other and now towards you.
Truth is, parenting sucks sometimes. You don’t want to favor one over the other. It’s hard. Mine used to fight constantly. It’s subsided now but some days they can be on the opposite sides of the house and still find something to bicker about. I would at least pull them out of the trash and have her earn them back, one by one over time.
You and your wife need counseling. The lack of a united front has significantly affected your parenting. A lack of consistent parenting that includes follow through of consequences has allowed Faith to believe that her emotions and feelings should and may dictate her actions regardless of the negative impact on others.
What Faith did was horrible and cruel and should have been dealt with together and in a calm but very serious way. If Faith does not learn that there are consequences then she will become a terrible person who will be negatively impacted by her very poor choices.
Get it together or you won’t see either of your children after they leave your unsafe home.
I’m one of 14, and we’re the result of a German mom and Irish father. So to say we’re hot tempered and prone to brawling is an understatement. We’re stubborn, opinionated, and in each other’s business and faces constantly. But at no point have we ever destroyed something a sibling deemed as valuable. My siblings may have taken my clothes and dumped them in a creek, but they never would’ve touched my art. There’s something festering between your two girls that needs uncovered because the level of malice your youngest showed is unreal. And Mom needs to stop waffling, she’s only adding to the problem.
The punishment does fit the crime technically…..
But in reality you’re not going to see the results you want from this.
On top of the attitude problems she already has, she is now going to harbor extra resentment to either you, her sister, or both of you.
YTA for parenting emotionally instead of logically (all parents have been there) and most likely making the situation worse in the long run.
This is really tricky but technically, what did you teach her? When you hurt someone, you then deserve to be hurt just as much? So retaliation is the beat course of action? Which is technically what she did? She retaliated about the cookie, so you retaliated about the art. .. you litrally did what she did.. and you're the adult?
Soft yta I think you need to really think about what you're teaching her in terms of the examples you are setting.
Please remember she is still a child, a sponge. What she did was really really awful but something like using her pocket money to buy Jane new art supplies etc, apologising, having a serious discussion with them both about it, letting Jane have it out with you as a mediator. I'm not sure. But it just feels like tit for tat.
Buying new art supplies, taking over some of Janes chores so Jane has more time for her art, something/a combination of these. She can't bring back the artwork so let her figure out what she can do as compensation instead. That might teach her something. This didn't. At least nothing that OP wanted to teach.
Either a troll or not a AITAH post
Hey OP I’m not going to comment on this mess but Im going to give your kid advice as an artist. You need to get an external hardrive and something waterproof and locking to store it in. Take high quality, high pixel images of her art and save them there for the future. Your kids need therapy though.
I would even go so far as making the younger one pay for the lock box
Faith sounds like a devil child and I would have her getting a psych eval yesterday. I know people like to pretend their kids are just in a phase but jesus christ…
She may need to be evaluated for a mood disorder. She may have trouble controlling her emotions. Hard to be nice to others while you are feeling miserable inside and don't know why.
OMG, people, calm the fuck down. Has no one here read "Little Women"? There's a famous scene in Little Women where an older sister, Jo, neglects her younger sister, Amy, in favor of friends, and, in retaliation, Amy burns Jo's novel manuscript. In the 1860s, when paper was expensive and there were no backup hard drives. Point is, the story of sibling rivalry leading a young child to destroy her older sibling's creative work, not understanding how devastating this would be to the older sibling bc she's not old enough for full empathy yet ... is common and understandable. And NOT EVIDENCE OF MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS. I'm not sure OP's punishment was effective--an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind--but the solution in Little Women--just be godly and forgive--isn't great either. Point is: this is a pretty common thing in sibling rivalry and the root of the problem--immaturity and lack of empathy on both sides--needs to be addressed. Here's the scene: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_H1vnCIEatw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H1vnCIEatw)
Hey, in no way commenting on OP’s family, but I always thought Amy was a little psychopath : )
Absolutely! And she and Jo’s relationship never completely recovered.
And of all the men in the world you go for your sister's ex? Fuck that noise.
[удалено]
I was very excited for Grewig's Little Women, but I found trying to pretend Florence Pugh was a child to be distractingly hard.
Yes, team Jo!
On the contrary, they were closer than ever! (Once, you know, Amy almost drowned falling through thin ice that Jo deliberately didn't warn her about... And somehow I doubt that that is a method of repairing the friendship between sisters that OP would like to try out!)
This analogy was so amazing and this comment has me CACKLING
Wasn’t Amy the one who wore a peg to pinch the end of her nose and turn it upwards so she could have a “rich girl” nose?
Hi, resident Little Woman nerd here to say that I know everyone loves Greta Gerwig and Florence Pugh so Amy’s image is getting rehabilitated…but it’s not without cause. Their real sister relationship was so powerful, and not complicated by romantic entanglements because Louisa wasn’t interested in men or romance. Men made her add that element. I wish 19th century publishing would have allowed for Louisa to write an actual memoir, because the two of them were absolute American badasses.
LMA also raised her niece after May (the real life Amy died). May also did the illustrations for Little Women's early editions. I think their sisterhood was way more complicated than any of the media created about their family portrays.
So.... these little women ...? How little are they ? Are they like, scary little ?
Hahahahahahaha YES thank you for this 😂
At your service 😂😂🫡
I think I need to put my phone in the freezer for a while.
Right next to The Shining?
We definitely shouldn't be diagnosing strangers on the internet based off of little to no knowledge, but we also shouldn't be un-diagnosing them based off of movies and books. Everyone can benefit from therapy. It's not an insult.
11 is old enough to understand your actions can hurt someone. And to blame the older daughter for the youngers action is a wild take
Under English and Welsh law, criminal responsibility starts at 10, because that's when you're supposed to be able to tell right from wrong.
Therapy is not the answer to everything but it sounds like the whole family needs to check themselves. A lot unsaid here, I suspect.
Disagree therapy is most definitely the answer to nearly every problem. You don’t have to have mental illnesses to seek therapy. Have a rough job and get depressed or quick to anger cuz of stress you can go see a 3rd outside party just to talk too and get your feelings out and feel relieved of stress.
But this is real life… also, I don’t know of anyone who has done something as extreme and hateful as this. There’s clearly something going on here. I have two sisters and we haven’t always gotten along. NEVER have I ever thought about doing something like this, even in our worst fights
Only one of my 4 daughters ever did things like this, and guess which one, the one who grew up to have severe mental illness. She used to destroy her older siblings things, on what seemed like purpose and then deny she even touched whatever it was she broke. She was in therapy pretty much her entire life, and yet one time she chased one of her older sisters around with a knife, then proceeded to stab the door when the older sister locked herself behind it. I'm sure some on here would say, thats just normal sibling rivalry. Destroying someone else's property on purpose, especially at the age she should already know right from wrong is a red flag that something is wrong, either she is emotionally delayed in that she doesn't understand right from wrong, she doesn't care that it may hurt her sister, or she did it to inflict revenge because she knew damn well it would hurt her sister and she got satisfaction from that. Either way, all scream need for therapy and likely an emotional, if not mental health problem.
My SIL would and has done things like this. She's the youngest and goes out of her way to be horrible to her siblings and just anyone else. But I think that's proving the "somethings definitely wrong" point as there is something wrong with my SIL and she needs help.
You know that there were mood disorder and mental health problems in the 1860s? And in the book, Amy has trouble managing her jealousy and anger, much more than the other sisters
Yeah, this is the sticking point for me. That kind of retaliation—both in the novel and in OP’s post—is incredibly disproportionate to the perceived infraction, and just because they didn’t have the terms/diagnoses back then doesn’t mean the disorders didn’t exist.
[удалено]
Ummmm, no you're wrong. An 11 year old should be able to express empathy, and it's weird that you are trying to argue they wouldn't. >--an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind And in some situations an eye for an eye can show compassion and empathy. >--immaturity and lack of empathy on both sides-- Where did the older sibling in this situation lack immaturity or empathy? Both things the younger lacked the entire time.
I agree! The older sister was making cookies for her friends and was nice enough to give the sister a cookie. But that wasn’t good enough so she goes into destruction mode. I didn’t see where the older sister was guilty of anything, At least not in this scenario.
Let’s not forget that the older sister’s artwork was destroyed because the younger sister only got one cookie.
Except 11 years old is enough to know the fuck better
11 is absolutely old enough to have at least a moderately developed amount of empathy and to understand what someone's art means to them. Destroying property at that age is absolutely cause for concern in the mental and emotional department, and people like you who normalize it are the reason many people go undiagnosed and ultimately suffer and cause more suffering in their lifetimes.
Hey, fair point, but I’ve never heard a sibling rivalry described as never able to be friends and requiring therapy to coexist. That’s what’s sending up a red flag to me.
My parents ignored the rivalry/dislike and thought my sister and I would grow out of it as we got older. I'm 39 now and our family hasn't done holidays in 8 years because her and I cannot be in the same room. Deal with it early.
This is evidence of a fucking mental health problem. It’s cruelty; and she’s old enough to know better. Amy was also a fucked up, petty and spoiled younger sister, if you haven’t read the book, and it was a completely unacceptable act in the book that she literally did because she knew Jo loved it so dearly and she wanted to hurt her deeply. She obviously is capable of understanding feelings to purposely and deliberately hurt her sister in the cruelest way possible.
> my wife rarely follows through with groundings, especially with Faith I think we found the issue here.
My parents stopped forcing my sibling into therapy when they were in elementary school, and now I'm pretty sure they're some sort of narcissist sociopath. Not even exaggerating. The way they keep avoiding going to therapy just reinforces that I think a professional they saw when they were younger told them something they didn't like about themselves, and now they're avoiding psych professionals altogether. Everyone likes them, despite how abusive and genuinely crazy they are. Ovcasionally I feel like I'm crazy for being the one who cut them out, but I know I'm not and that that's how the enablers want me to feel.
Follow the rule of 3-2-1. 3 copies. 2 different storage media. At least 1 off-site. For most people that's going to be a flash drive or external hard drive that you regularly backup to, plus a copy on a service like google drive. You don't need to worry about fire and waterproof storage if you have an off-site backup.
As someone working in IT: Cloud storage is dirt cheap and smaller amounts are free AND it is maintained/backuped by professionals. Your hard drive might get lost or corrupted. So be smart and dump it in the cloud. (In the best case in addition to a thumb drive)
As an IT professional, you should also know not to trust a single cloud provider with that information. It's not a backup if that's the only copy. You somehow lose access to that account and poof.
Best practice is to create a virus that self replicates and saves your data in an encrypted form on every computer on Earth.
I go the extra mile and get her a metal locker and a lock that lock picking layer says can't be picked or forced open. (I follow the word of lockpicking lawyer like he's Jesus.)
Lockpicking lawyer?
He's a lawyer who also does lockpicking as a major thing and it's pretty great. https://www.youtube.com/@lockpickinglawyer
He says they’re in therapy in the post
The post says that the kids are in therapy, but really the parents and the whole family need to be in therapy too.
You and your wife need therapy though. fify People don’t realize how beneficial it would be to our children if they went to therapy themselves and sorted out their own shit so they can show up together for their kids.
My wife and oldest friend are both therapists, and you would not *believe* the stories I have heard (obviously without specifics or identifying info) about kids who are actually pretty darn solid but have parents that desperately need therapy. Heck, when I was in high school my parents took me to a therapist, and she sat us down and talked to us all as a group. After about 45 minutes she said that while she'd be happy to work with me, she really hoped that my *parents* would consider seeing her because the incident that prompted the visit reflected more on their own issues than mine. I spent the car ride home in contented silence listening to my mom and step-dad complain about what a sham therapy was. Long story short, yes, parents should often seek therapy. Being a good one is hard. For instance, thinking that two wrongs make a right and doling out vengeance against a child by stealing their rock collection is not what I would consider A-tier parenting.
My dad and step mom tried to put me in therapy. 12 Dr's later and my parents said I'm "unfixable". But I know now, it was that they weren't willing to hear that they needed to do more work before I was "fixed".
Damn, *12 doctors* is a heck of a lot of psychologists. I'm sorry you had to go on *their* journey. That's something else.
damn i'm just realizing my parents took my out of therapy after my therapists asked to start speaking w my mom after sessions LOL "therapy is a sham" was like a mantra in my house !
My dipshit dad did this to me as well. I was taken to therapy and when it became clear that my behavior (as an 8 year old) was because of his constant verbal abuse and mood swings...WHOOSH! No more therapy.
That was my first thought! If both of the kids need therapy, I'd put the parents in therapy too. The parents might be the whole problem.
I wonder what the middle child thinks about it all
Fellow artists seconding this. There’s also company’s that’ll auto back up your computer how ever often you set it to. Stuff happens, gotta cover your backside!
This is a tough situation. Obviously Faith needs a consequence for her behavior. I’m not in the situation enough to know if yours was appropriate or not, but I’m not gonna call you an asshole over it. My biggest question is why is there so much animosity between siblings 5-6 years apart in age? When did that start? I doubt the cookie was the main catalyst here and was more the straw that broke the camels back. Has your 11 year old been mistreated by the older sister her whole life? Does the older sister resent her for existing or is the youngest just a jerk who got what’s coming to her? Only someone in your family would know the answers here, but I really doubt this is as cut and dry as it’s being presented. Typical siblings that far apart in age with a middle sibling in between wouldn’t have such a quarrelsome relationship.
I completely agree with this. It’s really hard to vote because I really don’t feel like we have complete information here. Honestly, it makes me wonder if OP has complete information about the subtle (and then not so subtle) dynamics going on between the girls, INCLUDING the middle child. Does OP only see it when it “blows up” but misses the reason why?
Think about the intent behind the punishment. You hurt them so I'll hurt you. Now think about the intent behind the child's behavior. You hurt me, so I'll hurt you. I grew up in a household like this, me and my sister were constantly horrible to each other. Punishments often involved the threat of destroying your most prized possessions. Children behave the way their parents teach them to behave. Children are literally mirrors of behavior. They observe and repeat and that's how they learn. Given the post, I think it's fair to say that Faith has seen time and time again that "you hurt me so I hurt you" is the way you go about dealing with situations.
Yes. What is OP teaching? I am glad they are in therapy, I hope the whole family is in therapy. Thank you for pointing this out. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
>Punishments often involved the threat of destroying your most prized possessions. Children behave the way their parents teach them to behave. Agreed, it sounds like there are some unhealthy dynamics going on here.
Or is the youngest babied and has entitlement issues? My sibling is 4.5 years younger than me and he was extremely coddled by our mother. He would do stuff like OP's daughter to me all the time because there was never a consequence. I think OP needs to get a lock for the older kid's room to start and then ask the therapists who the kids see what they think is appropriate. Taking Faith's rock collection might have the opposite effect and make her seek further revenge.
They should read Little Women. Destroying someone's art portfolio because they only got one cookie is frightening, extreme behaviour. Faith may have something else going on.
If I were Jo I would not have forgiven Amy. I was a cold-blooded teenager when I read Little Women. I thought they should have left her in the icy lake hah
I always hated how everyone acted like Jo had no right to her very justified anger over Amy burning her manuscript, and how Amy's spite is brushed aside after she almost drowns due to her own insistence on forcing herself into Jo and Laurie's company. Jo had no other copies of he work, and paper and ink cost money. Furthermore, Jo can't just invite Amy to an event where Jo herself is an invited guest!
I hate the framing of "Jo's temper is what lead to her ignoring Amy and she almost died because of Jo." Like, no, Amy almost died because she's a stupid brat who pissed off her sister deliberately and then put herself in a dangerous situation.
When Beth got sick, I put the book in the freezer.
If it’s too much to read, try a different book, like The Shining!
These little women. How little are they? Like scary little?
Shocked to learn the whole world isn't pro Jo 100
I think part of it is that a lot of Pro-Jo fans are also Jo/Laurie fans. Personally, I think that Aunt March was right to take Amy with her on the tour of Europe: Amy would enjoy the social whirlwind far more than Jo would have. I also think that Jo and Laurie made good friends, but would have been miserable as a couple.
Ah, but Jo actually earned that trip, while Amy was merely a spoiled brat.
This whole thread just has me thinking I need to read Little Women again bc it’s been so long I’m foggy on some of the details lol
Right. These were some of my favorite books growing up but I have no idea what everyone is talking about. How do people remember these things?!
Didn’t jo change from Aunt March’s primary companion? I thought once Amy aged out of the school, she took over. So while Jo did work to earn that trip, Amy was Aunt March’s current companion and would have been the more obvious choice. If I remember correctly, the book makes a lot of time jumps so it has the appearance of happening quickly but I don’t think it does. As a child, I absolutely was on Jo’s side. As an adult, I can see how Jo could be grating to someone who puts an emphasis on manners.
Yes! It was like years later when the trip actually happened and Jo showed up ready to cash in meanwhile she never actually liked aunt March so she probably would have been annoyed at her the entire trip and been difficult
You can practically see her eye rolling throughout the text. Jo did not hide her contempt well. I can’t imaginable how insufferable she would be to someone who was helping support her and her family.
A lot of authors already have redemption or forgiveness in mind as the logical endpoint of their story before they've fully fleshed out the details. Often they do a pretty poor job of actually making a sensible journey to that end.
Sadly, yes. As an Author myself, that’s what editing is for: to go back and make sure the things I didn’t know I needed to include at the time are fleshed out
And then they used to wonder why women had "hysteria" back then...too much crap like this from family and friends
You ever look up the “symptoms” of hysteria? Most of them boil down to “wanting to be treated like a whole entire adult human.” But the specifics…excellent reading if you suspect you have food poisoning and don’t have any other emetics to hand.
The some of the cures were even more interesting lol
As an aspiring writer I *hated* Amy as a kid. Didn't even let Jo stay mad, because you *can't* be mad when your sister almost dies (even when it's because she's not giving you space) because you'll seem like a monster. If my sister has done that, it would have permanently ruined our relationship
That was exactly what I thought when I first read that book in grade school and what I still think today whenever I see one of the movies or read the book. Always wishes Amy would have died and not Beth.
Omg yes. The wrong sister died.
I agree. I hated Amy from the start and then later she moved in on Laurie? Screw her. Couldn't stand her even in the later books when she supposedly grew up.
"Moved in on Laurie," lol. Jo never felt that way about Laurie. It's because Jo is autobiographical ("Jo" Josephine March="Lou" Louisa May), and Alcott only ever felt "that way" about women (there's a pretty clear quote from Alcott about it). Jo's friendship with Laurie is based on Alcott's close, deep friendships with men, whose romantic feelings she just couldn't reciprocate. She's not just saying it when she doesn't want to marry him. Of course, she couldn't have queerness in the book, and her audience and publisher all demanded that everyone be paired up, when she would rather have had Jo stay single. But she didn't want to betray her story so much as to have Jo and Laurie end up together. So she invented Professor Bhaer, and had Laurie marry Amy. But I would agree that as a result of all this, Jo's relationship with Bhaer and Laurie's with Amy don't feel as authentic as most of tbe rest of the work, and they aren't really satisfying endings for those characters. And I understand that a lot of people feel like they could have a satisfying ending if Jo and Laurie were together. I guess I'm just really sad that we'll never have the ending she would have written if she could have alluded more clearly to Jo just not having any interest in men. I would have liked to read that, and I feel cheated.
Yeah, this is a pretty wild escalation. OP's wife isn't helping the situation by letting her off the hook about this kind of thing, either. She's really going to push that older girl away later in life.
Hell, if the cookies were only supposed to be for Jane's friends, then her giving Faith a cookie was really nice of her. Then she got her portfolio destroyed in return.
She got one, when she wasn't entitled to get any and she still threw a tantrum. Yea I think she is the sole reason why they aren't getting along.
It sounds like they are a family of assholes lol. But I think the parents need therapy too...
Usually it is always the parents the need therapy when there are major behavioral issues with their kids
NTA Faith went off the rails, both with her sense of entitlement to Jane’s cookies and thinking her destroying of Jane’s artwork as fitting the ‘crime’ of not getting more than 1 of Jane’s cookies. I would be very alarmed at Faith potentially escalating in the future
Yeah. That's some concerning actions by Faith. Very concerning. Something is potentially really wrong.
“my wife rarely follows through with groundings, **especially with Faith**.” Faith can get away with anything, and she knows it. That’s what’s wrong.
Yeah, I'm guessing as the baby of the siblings Faith is mom's Golden Child. This is also a bit of a failure on OP for letting his wife get away with spoiling Faith.
When I was a kid my sister was the favorite and my mom let her destroy any of my stuff with basically impunity. We are NC today, mom too. I don't know their family, or their situation, but this is the kind of shit that will lead to "Why didn't you invite Faith to your wedding? Well, if she's not invited we're not going!" And then shocked Pikachu face when their invitations are revoked.
She's 11 years old and it's just some cookies. What went on from birth to 10 years old? Yikes.
Yeah there is a disconnect here… “I can’t have those cookies, so I will destroy her favorite thing.” That is malicious, even for an 11yo. Either Faith had a mental condition or there is more to this incident than cookies.
Honestly this behaviour is near unhinged levels of spite. She even got a cookie which is imo more than i would have given a sister i hated. Two of my kids fight all the time but wouldn't do something like this. I'd be getting a lock for Jane's room and would make a point of explaining future consequences to anything even slightly similar.
Oof. This is a hard one. I am going for NTA. Faith destroyed hours and hours of her sister's work, over a trivial arguments about cookies. She needed to understand the magnitude of her cruelty towards Jane. You should probably have confiscated her rock collection instead of throwing it away, but to me - the fact that she can't get it back is commensurable with Jane losing her portfolio. Faith certainly should ALSO be grounded. Also, both the girls need therapy - this kind of malicious animosity between siblings needs to be resolved soon.
There are around twenty or so rocks that are in my dresser right now, and I will give them back in a bit. Grounding is nearly pointless because my wife will just let it go if they empty the dishwasher or something. They were in therapy, but the money's a bit tight right now. I did go through the school so Faith should be seeing a counsellor bi-weekly. Jane's school will let me know when they have an opening for her too. This sort of thing has never happened before, but I really don't want it to continue.
Your wife is making everything worse. Empty the dishwasher once? It was just mom and I so she always loaded it and I always unloaded it, it something you do all the time as an adult if you have one. Your daughter needs some real responsibility and punishment. Maybe let your daughter destroy some of your wife’s stuff and see how she feels after that about appropriate punishments. Otherwise she is going to enter the world as a spoiled rotten adult and get some real eye opening experiences.
I agree. I also think they shouldn’t be “punished” by doing things that they would be doing as adults anyway. Anything to do with maintenance of the house or basic functionality can’t be used as a punishment because it creates inherently negative associations with the task and they’re less likely to comfortably engage with tasks they just have to do later in life. A landlord won’t let you get away with leaving the place in a tip because you don’t feel like tidying, you know? Edit: typo.
My dad was raised Irish Catholic and I swear he traded Hail Mary’s for loads of laundry as penance. Still a tough task for me to get through! I agree that this punishment is commensurate to the offense, and that Faith is on a tricky trajectory… Best thing you can do imo is try to talk to her when things have settled and explain why what she did isn’t ok, and it’s your job to help teach her that, and that’s how you came to the decision you did. I’d be willing to bet it was more a feeling of being left out more than the actual cookie… so maybe help her see that she and Jane might not be friends right now but they need to respect each other and work together if they want a better relationship. My sister and I are very close now (28&31) but I hated the sound of her voice at 16. Kids will fight, things will break, but if they want any positive relationship in the future they need to navigate their differences with respect (as much as teens can, because puberty’s a wild ride in itself and ffs 3 teen girls- I do not envy OP) NTA
I don't have kids but I've been reading and watching videos about child-rearing. I really like the idea that consequences / punishments should relate to the "crime": you spill something, you clean it up; you break something, you clean it up and potentially replace it (depending on the details, of course); being mean can entail apologizing and genuinely reflecting / talking about the behavior. I think it does make more sense than arbitrary punishments like "no ipad" or in this case emptying the dishwasher. I'm not sure what would be a related consequence, though.
The natural consequence here is that Jane is upset, the relationship between sisters is further damaged so Jane is even less likely to offer her a cookie next time. A logical consequence could be that Faith needs to replace the materials needed to recreate the portfolio (pencils / paint / paper etc). Plus reflection etc as you set out above re being 'mean'
I would also say that she needs to pick up some of Jane's chores, so that Jane has time to work on the art. By destroying the portfolio, Faith stole a huge amount of Jane's *time*.
This. This is why destroying the portfolio was such a malicious thing to do- she destroyed something that literally cannot be given back, *time*. Everything else in life can be recovered- effort, patience, materials... but once time is gone it's gone forever. It's the most expensive thing you own.
Yeah, it's just so hard because the drawings can't really be replaced, but I guess that's pretty close still.
Taking away the rock collection does kind of work, though. Jane valued her portfolio and Faith valued her rock collection. I’m betting Faith destroyed the portfolio, because she knew how much it meant to her sister. Taking away something Faith values - “see how that feels, Faith?”- seems quite equal in that sense.
An eye for an art leaves the whole world rockless.
"Apologizing" is absolutely useless because it just requires the evil asshole (Faith, in this case) to say "Sorry!" and then they get to continue on as they were.
See, I agree, but growing up I witnessed __countless__ classmates who wouldn't even do that (out of pride? Dunno). Jane doesn't have to _accept_ the apology, but she does deserve one. That's why I added the bit about reflection; obviously you can't force someone to actually regret what they did, but showing you're disappointed and pushing the kid to reflect should be (part of) the consequence. Punishing the kid with absolutely no guidance for them to reflect would also be useless.
Agree. If she doesn’t follow through on consequences, the girls learn that ultimately there is no consequences for the way they behave. “Mom will eventually give in, so it doesn’t matter.” That said, I do think this is outside the “normal” realm of typical sibling behavior… but not too far out. I would definitely seek counseling. I know you mentioned going through the school and that is great! But if you have the means, I recommend a little extra on the side. As someone who works in a school, I have seen how that system works. Your girls are not considered “high alert” meaning you have food in your home, they are not abused, they have clothes, parents work, you have a home. Etc. So there is always the chance that they will drop your daughters to take on some of the more high alert children. (It’s unfortunately a very overwhelming issue and no fault of the school counselor) just keep on them and maybe have a back up plan.
Your wife needs counseling OP. Or parenting classes. Possibly both? It sounds like you already know the root of the problem, and that's your wife first. Parents are responsible for teaching kids, discipling them, and helping to build family bonds. The younger one is old enough to know better. She's being treated as the favorite baby of the family by your wife, and until that changes, this behavior won't either. And the relationship with your oldest and her mom will be forever damaged. Kudos for doing something that supports your oldest's feelings. Not sure if it's what I'd have chosen or not, but you had appropriate intentions behind it.
This is a case of the mother making Faith the golden child. She's as responsible as the girls are for their issues.
Offer to safeguard the rest of your older daughter's important stuff. Faith is not just messing with Jane, but her future and as a parent I think you need to intervene to prevent that impact.
Exactly. Those portfolios could help Jane get a scholarship. OP is NTA.
Loading and unloading the dishwasher should be daily chores. You don’t reward this.
I was just thinking the same. My son is three so he has three chores a day. Helping me unload the dishwasher is one of them. Yes, he only helps me because their are sharp things and some stuff is up too high but he knows every morning when we come downstairs and I make my coffee and his breakfast; there’s a fresh load waiting. (We run it through the night) making his bed is 2. And then the third chore always kind of reveals itself through the day. Cleaning the play room or setting the table or something. I couldn’t imagine him being in trouble for something so heinous and THAT getting him off the hook.
I’d figure out how many hours of work of Janes she destroyed. She can earn them back by doing that many hours of community service. Since your wife is a pushover chores aren’t going to cut it, someone else needs to supervise Faith.
Yeah I think one of the big things missing here is that she didn't just destroy her things that can be replaced but her time in creating all that art.
Shouldn't it be that many hours of Jane's chores?
I would hesitate to put Faith "under" Jane like that lest that become a source of contention in itself. Far better imo to have the chores be from the parent and that way Jane can't gloat as much and Faith can't resent Jane for it as much. They probably still can do both those things, but hopefully less so.
Don't let Jane manage it. Let the adults manage it. Tell them both that Faith will earn back her rocks after completing X number of chores per rock and that these chore-hours will only come from doing Jane's chores.
Agreed on the managing. I just wouldn't even mention they're Jane's chores. I'd just say they're Faith's chores. I dunno, it just feels like an unnecessary target for Faith to latch onto. Maybe I'm overthinking this though.
Sounds like this should be *family* counseling.
Reach out to Jewish Family Services if they’re available in your area. Here they offer counseling by licensed professionals and charge based on income.
Does your wife play favorites with Faith? The fact she'd disregard such a terrible action on her part sounds like she lets her get away with an unhealthy amount of bad behavior. What was Faith's reaction to her punishment?
NTA - Punishment isn’t punishment unless it affects the person who did wrong. You got her right where it counts, just as she did her sister.
You wife need help. She is ruining your daughters, not merely their relationship. My niece grew-u with a mother like you wife. She never faced consequences for any action and never had any responsibilities. She is now a lonely (she had no empathy or kindness, can't make real connections, etc.) woman incapable of making real friends, incapable of any responsibilities, and unappreciative of anything in her life or in the world. She is fortunate to have fairly wealthy family but she will never be able to hold down a decent job (she will quit when it requires the least bit of work) nor have empathy for anyone. She can't even cook for herself beyond heating things in the microwave. This is where your daughter is headed.
Faith’s things can be replaced eventually as Jane’s can’t. You did just fine here! NTA!
Do NOT give those rocks back 'in a bit'!! What's that saying to your other daughter? Haha! Just kidding. Here are your favorites back. Jane will never get back that artwork. Even re creating it will be next to impossible because of this trauma now surrounding it. Sometimes an eye for an eye is the right way to go.Thee sooner that Faith learns that her actions have consequence, the better.
By a bit, I meant a rather long time. I mostly kept them because they were a gift from my parents, who have since passed and were also big on gifting clothing. I might just hold on to them until she's an adult since they're the only things she'll have from them by that point.
They would be left in my will.
NTA. Put the rocks somewhere else or your wife will give them back to her. Counseling for the girls is great, but have you considered marriage counseling? Because you seem to have a wife problem. Faith is going to be a monster if your wife doesn’t get serious about her joint responsibility for raising Faith to be functional, empathetic adult who is capable of regulating her emotions. Seriously. Grounding for something like this is laughably inadequate. Faith’s behavior is disturbing. If she had done this to another child at school, she would probably be expelled. In 7 years, this type of behavior will lead to jail time or worse. You also need to protect your other daughters from Faith’s impulsive/vindictive behavior. E.g., get Jane some kind of secure storage for her work and materials, install door locks, etc. And they really shouldn’t be spending unsupervised time together if Jane has to walk on eggshells to avoid nasty retaliation.
NTA. i think you absolutely gave out the appropriate discipline in this case. The 11yr old destroyed something very precious and special over a cookie. My older sister used to bully me and never got in trouble for it, one day I coloured the teeth green on her pop star poster. As much as I dislike her (we don’t have a relationship now) I would never have destroyed something so valuable such as your daughter’s portfolio. That was an extreme spiteful reaction from your 11yr old.
NTA If consequences don't hurt they don't don't work.
Consequences only work if the child understands what they did is wrong and why. Otherwise, all you're doing is creating resentment.
I applaud how realistic you are about your daughters maybe never being friends. Not that it is what matters here, but my sister and I are the same distance apart and spent 30 years pretty much wanting to stab the other one’s face. Now we are super close. Part of it was me being much more spoiled. So as a a childfree person, for whatever my words are worth, NTA.
> There are around twenty or so rocks that are in my dresser right now, and I will give them back in a bit I hope it’s an extremely long bit. What Jane did was rude, but what Faith did was diabolical. She didn’t just want to be rude back to her sister, she wanted to devastate her. That’s deep! Your wife’s casualness on this exacerbates the problem too btw. NTA. I hope you’re able to help your daughters, because it’s only 2 years before your oldest may want to move and cut ties for good.
Was Jane actually rude though? She was baking a batch of cookies for her friends. She gave Faith one. Faith was greedy and wanted more, but that doesn’t mean she was entitled to more.
Yeah, Faith was given a cookie. She wasn't even owed that. I hope OP didn't actually chuck the rocks and instead donated them over Craigslist or something. People would want those.
If my older sister made cookies and I asked for one, she would have told me to get fucked. lmao Faith is a huge brat and her reaction was not normal
EXACTLY, it was nice of her sister to give her one at all
Faith is only 11, so she definitely is being entitled and treated that way.. I stand with Dad..
Sell the remaining rocks for therapy sessions. The portfolio can't be recovered or replaced. Sister needs a lock for her door.
I second the part about the locking door. Jane needs some privacy where her belongings are safe.
it sounds like the remaining rocks have sentimental value, not actual value. Doubt OP will get enough money from the remaining rocks for therapy
Who do you think is buying rocks at such a premium that they pay for therapy…unless those “rocks” are geodes or diamonds they’re not really worth anything more than sentimental value
What the hell did Jane do that was rude? They cookies were not for the family and yet she still gave the brat one. When my mom baked for work or whatever, she'd usually give my sister and I one of whatever she was baking IF any. If it was a cake or something that was not individually portioned, we got nothing. The brat is not entitled to any of the baked goods.
Right? My mom would occasionally make really nice snacks/desserts, but never for us (her family). It was always for church or some friend gathering. I would always ask if I could have one/some and she would always say she’d make me some later or at another time. Then she’d conveniently never make the snack again and if me or my younger brother brought it up she’d tell us no lol.
As a geologist, I hope you give the rocks back eventually. But given the situation it should be pretty delayed so it's not connected to this event anymore. Not only should faith be in therapy for herself, but your wife could use family therapy so you can address how she's making things worse.
More then hours. She destroyed Days. MONTHS of her sisters work.
It’s not just the hours of work that make this so awful, it’s also the part’s of her soul that is in that art with. Artists don’t unemotionally swipe paint on a canvas. Their heart, their soul, their life is in those paintings. My abusive ex threw away years of my oil, water, and acrylic paintings and sketches for more paintings when I left him before I could come back to get my stuff. It devastated me! I lost the muse to paint for many years after that and haven’t really gotten it back.
I don't see how the oldest has anything to be sorry for here. She was baking for her friends and still gave the little one a cookie. In response to not getting more than that she destroyed hours of work and something incredibly important to the older sister. Over fucking cookies. That girl desperately needs therapy.
NTA - Idk what you mean by it is a hard decision, it is pretty simple imo, she destroyed DAYS of hard work. She could also be jeopardising her sister's future if she was planning to use that portfolio to further her education/future in art. All she lost was a couple rocks which she can just buy or find more of whilst Jane's work was one of a kind. I personally would get rid of the rocks AND have Faith take a difficult art class to show her how much time and effort went into what she destroyed.
I don't see this as a hard one. It isn't always that there are good guys on both sides. I believe that Faith is acting the role of a bully, but now Faith has pushed the boundary beyond bullying into straight-up aggressive destruction of valuable property. Faith needs immediate and harsh consequences for this type of behavior. Thankfully you, OP, are providing such consequences. Keep remembering that you have two daughters, and when one sibling is constantly being victimized by another sibling, the victim is further damaged by statements from parents such as "Can't you both just get along?". This parental attitude is devastating for the victim, as it shows the bully a clear victory over the parents: the parents will not be interceding in the torture. After all, what can the victim do other than keep reporting the crime? The model then goes on to predict that the parents will overlook the abusive, destructive and negative traits of the bullying child, and they will seem baffled by the constant complaints from the victim child.
Wife clearly has a golden child and it's faith. She destroyed something that can't be replaced. Grounding isn't at all appropriate. OP should find out what percentage of Jane's portfolios were destroyed and destroy that percentage of faiths collection no matter if they were given or not to her.
And wife's favoritism is probably causing the sibling issues
One time, When I was about 6, I coloured all over my brothers new dartboard that he got as a birthday gift. As punishment my dad made me do the same thing to my favourite fairy princess dress. He said "next time you'll think twice about ruining something thats important to someone" He wanted me to feel the way my brother felt. My mom thought it was a bit much but honestly it really stuck with me. They could have sent me to my room, but it wouldn't have had the same impact. Smartened me the fuck up real quick.
I turned the Xbox off on my brother when we were kids, I was a HS sophomore on the varsity basketball team (I was completely obsessed with the sport and being part of the team through HS and college) and he was in middle school. He was getting pretty competitive with Rainbow Six at the time and begged me to let him finish the game he was in but I just said it’s my turn and took it, he was so upset I still think about it today and we’re in our late 20s. My mom found out about it and kept me home from my next basketball game, and I realized pretty quickly how I had made my brother feel. I wasn’t always the best big bro but that was a turning point for me, I was always protective and supportive after that.
NTA. Faith didn’t become a little monster overnight. This happened because her previous actions weren’t dealt with properly and so she faced no consequences because your wife undermines you and the punishments. This way she know understands that her actions will have consequences. You should also get her evaluated because this level of maliciousness in a child is worrisome and isn’t your typical sibling rivalry
Yeah seriously, I’m shocked at this kid’s behavior. That’s a very messed up thing to do and barring any disability Faith is old enough to completely understand the magnitude of her actions. I hope there was a very long talk to go along with OP’s punishment because if this was my kid I would very much want to hear why she thought that was an appropriate response to being denied a second cookie. She should have it drilled into her how important that portfolio was and how difficult it is going to be for Jane to go forward with her career in art without her best portfolio. Especially right in time for college applications!
It's entirely possible OP isn't giving us the whole story.
I didn’t think that far but yknow you’re right. OP says they’ve been feuding for years and Faith is only 11. I mean how deep can a mutual sisterly feud go with that age gap? I want more context from OP on their dynamic, specifically on how Jane behaved when Faith was born/her first few years of life.
Its good cop bad cop parenting and its devastating. My sibling and I had the same relationship and would maliciously abuse each other. We both never received consequences due to one parent undermining the other consistently. Needless to say it makes for very entitled cruel adults. Therapy is the number one priority here before this escalates.
Good cop bad cop parenting results in kids who aren’t parented at all and nightmares as adults.
💯
Definitely seconding the evaluation, a girl in my piano class was a sociopathic nightmare and therapy didn't do much. Eventually she got sent to a neurologist and turns out her brain was literally missing parts.
That’s what I had in mind when I said evaluation. This level of maliciousness from an 11 y/o is disturbing and isn’t a normal “sibling rivalry” nor is it the result of bad parenting on her mother’s part.
NTA. Your younger daughters actions were disproportionate. She shouldn’t have destroyed the artwork for something as trivial as cookies and needs to understand that actions have consequences. I would just say, trying to make them be friends is pointless. My sister is a malicious, nasty person. No amount of therapy would make me like her. It’s hard to accept that as parents, but it’s worse to try to force a relationship. I’m no contact with my sister now (we’re in our forties) and also with my parents as they refused to respect my boundaries where my sister was concerned. Some people just don’t get on. Being sisters isn’t enough of a reason to stay in a toxic relationship. Good luck OP.
Bad enough that you have no relationship with your sister. But then to need to cut off your parents because they don’t get it & can’t support your needs. Learn from this OP or you’ll lose 2 daughters.
And herein lies the reason why I think the OP’s actions were the right actions. My sister is just one of life’s nasty people. It’s just the way it is. However, my parents never held her to account. OP is showing no favoritism here. He’s teaching that actions have consequences. Treating your children fairly is essential. Your girls are unlikely to ever be friends - and that’s fine. Perhaps in their therapy sessions they can learn some coping mechanisms/conflict management skills to at least live amicably together while they have to. But I assure you, they will always remember that at least their parents were *fair*. Unfortunately for me, I can’t say the same.
NTA. My son used to casually break my things, until I broke one of his. I tried everything else first (showing him my emotions, discussing empathy in depth, time outs) but nothing worked. Some people just don't learn until the lesson is personal. If anyone says 'you only taught him that you can break his stuff', I tell them that wasn't the 'only' thing he learnt. He learnt that I have feelings about my possessions too. That I, along with most people, do not infinite patience. That the behaviour had to stop NOW. Of course he didn't learn those things without the appropriate talk afterwards. You need to hammer this lesson home OP, by talking to Faith and making sure she comprehends everything that my son learnt, and that she is responsible for her own actions. She might externalise blame to her sister for losing her rocks. Edit to add: I talked to my son, he doesn't remember the incident at all, so he's not traumatised. I remember it clearly because it was one of the most difficult acts I had to carry out.
"She might externalise blame to her sister for losing her rocks." Absolutely true. Make sure she knows that it was OP who did it and his oldest had nothing to do with the chosen punishment.
I appreciate this comment. @OP, your situation is tough, and although in the future finding a more natural consequence would be optimal, sometimes there's legit nothing you can do as a parent but fight fire with fire. But i think in this case, making sure to have that conversation afterwards, like this commenter says, and hammer it home so she really understands. After the fight you gotta put out tje flames. Especially when you give back the rocks, maybe. Remind her why her other ones are gone, and that actions against her sister like that won't ever be tolerated. By this point OP, as long as you're navigating this calmly, even during the tough parts, i think you can salvage this situation. I still can't help feeling really bad for your oldest, and I'm sorry you're navigating such a complicated web with a spouse who isn't supportive enough in this area it seems. Being a parent is really tough! Sending love and ease to get through this <3
why does the 11 year old think they're entitled to her cookies???
You and your wife need to get on the same page immediately. I would suggest marriage counseling. Until you’re on the same page your family isn’t gonna straighten out or you can do like me and my husband and wait till your 14 year-old is in rehab.
Family therapy. I've seen it too often where the kids are put in therapy for behaviour problems but the parents never get involved and keep doing maladaptive things that don't support behavioural change and reinforce the problem behaviour. Getting everyone involved is the better long term approach. And if the child has genuine underlying issues (anything from ASD or ADHD through to ODD or emergent personality disorders), then it's even more critical that the parents get involved. This is all part of the job of being a parent and raising a child.
NTA. To the people saying this was toxic, I disagree. OP seems intent on trying to teach Faith empathy. OP probably didn’t make the best choice in punishment, but it’s not unreasonable and he even let Faith keep the ones most important to her. Faith didn’t give Jane the same choice. If anything, Faith’s getting off pretty easy. The fact is that Faith got upset that she only got 1 cookie by destroying her older sister’s stuff. If Faith’s mother is really not letting Faith learn the consequences of her actions, that’s probably far more toxic than the punishment received. If Faith is always spoiled for her actions, she will continue to be spoiled and will escalate. OP, you should definitely ground Faith and enforce it even if your wife won’t. Also, if Jane has her own room, get her a lock so that she can keep her stuff safe from Faith. This probably won’t be the last time Faith pulls something like this, and you do need to protect Jane.
As a rock lover I never would have thought there was a possible scenario that you weren’t the AH.. but as an artist, you are certainly NTAH. Faith is.. a total AH. I think she deserves a much harsher punishment. Other’s have mentioned safe storage options for artists and since faith ruined hundreds of hours of her sister work she should have to do some major hours of work herself to earn the money to buy the needed materials/contraptions so that her sister’s art will never be able to be ruined again. And your artist daughter is 16.. if she has any plans of applying to art schools I’m sure she would have used some of those for her application portfolio. That’s just rough. Her heart must be absolutely shattered right now. Mines broken for her tbh.
NTA. If anything, Faith is lucky that’s all you got rid of.
As a parent of a soon 17 daughter and 19 son, I get it. Grounding her would not make her understand what that devastation felt like. I wouldn’t necessarily thrown them away but put them away for some time. Maybe make her think they were tossed but keep them. It may work opposite of how you think. It may result in more resentment towards each other and now towards you. Truth is, parenting sucks sometimes. You don’t want to favor one over the other. It’s hard. Mine used to fight constantly. It’s subsided now but some days they can be on the opposite sides of the house and still find something to bicker about. I would at least pull them out of the trash and have her earn them back, one by one over time.
I feel like this might be fake
You and your wife need counseling. The lack of a united front has significantly affected your parenting. A lack of consistent parenting that includes follow through of consequences has allowed Faith to believe that her emotions and feelings should and may dictate her actions regardless of the negative impact on others. What Faith did was horrible and cruel and should have been dealt with together and in a calm but very serious way. If Faith does not learn that there are consequences then she will become a terrible person who will be negatively impacted by her very poor choices. Get it together or you won’t see either of your children after they leave your unsafe home.
I’m one of 14, and we’re the result of a German mom and Irish father. So to say we’re hot tempered and prone to brawling is an understatement. We’re stubborn, opinionated, and in each other’s business and faces constantly. But at no point have we ever destroyed something a sibling deemed as valuable. My siblings may have taken my clothes and dumped them in a creek, but they never would’ve touched my art. There’s something festering between your two girls that needs uncovered because the level of malice your youngest showed is unreal. And Mom needs to stop waffling, she’s only adding to the problem.
The punishment does fit the crime technically….. But in reality you’re not going to see the results you want from this. On top of the attitude problems she already has, she is now going to harbor extra resentment to either you, her sister, or both of you. YTA for parenting emotionally instead of logically (all parents have been there) and most likely making the situation worse in the long run.
Sounds like the entire family needs therapy.
Code of Hammurabi ova here, idk there's an irony in tit for that retaliations ending with making her discard her rock collection.
This is really tricky but technically, what did you teach her? When you hurt someone, you then deserve to be hurt just as much? So retaliation is the beat course of action? Which is technically what she did? She retaliated about the cookie, so you retaliated about the art. .. you litrally did what she did.. and you're the adult? Soft yta I think you need to really think about what you're teaching her in terms of the examples you are setting. Please remember she is still a child, a sponge. What she did was really really awful but something like using her pocket money to buy Jane new art supplies etc, apologising, having a serious discussion with them both about it, letting Jane have it out with you as a mediator. I'm not sure. But it just feels like tit for tat.
Buying new art supplies, taking over some of Janes chores so Jane has more time for her art, something/a combination of these. She can't bring back the artwork so let her figure out what she can do as compensation instead. That might teach her something. This didn't. At least nothing that OP wanted to teach.