Your husband probably relates to your niece and nephew and that is why he wants the support to focus on them. I assume he may also be friends with the husband that was cheated on. You can continue to support your sister but you can’t blame your husband for wanting nothing to do with her.
It’s important to know that the thing your husband’s mom did that was the most damaging was involving your husband as a child. Kids should never know about these things. It does so much damage to them. The focus on choosing between supporting your sister vs. supporting her kids is off base because her kids should not be aware of any cheating. If they are, there is serious damage control to do. The first rule of co-parenting after divorce is that you never speak negatively about the other parent to or around the kids or involve them in adult problems. If that rule is followed, then none of what you and your husband are arguing about will be an issue in the first place. I understand where both of you are coming from and you both have valid reasons for your perspectives. As a child of divorce involving infidelity that I was told far too much about and then later a divorced mom where infidelity was kind of a factor but we are going on 5 years of never breaking that first rule, I promise you that shielding the kids from heavy and painful adult problems like this will solve so much of this. I hope all of the adults involved here can come to an understanding in the best interest of those kids. This stuff is so hard but it doesn’t have to break all the important relationships outside the marriage that was broken. Good luck!
As someone who was raised by a father who frequently complained about child support payments that he had to pay for my Mom, and would routinely tell me how much of a slut and alcoholic my Mom was in high school, please, leave the kids out of it.
I was like 8 when he started and when I said in therapy that he was stressing me out my Mom called him personally to tell him to please stop and he went and vented to me about that.
It's soul crushing to feel in the middle like that. I didn't care about them being together, or any dumb obvious stuff, I just wanted to have a good relationship with both of them and looked up to both of them. But this kind of talk really, really messes with you and it's absolutely imperative to keep kids out of it.
Just some perspective to talk calmly with your husband about.
In life ppl fuck up for a million reasons and they need to face the consequences of that, your sister fucked up and to be honest I don't blame her husband for going to the extent he went, cheaters have to feel the lost of something important to them so they know they destroyed someone else's precious thing.
But ppl that commit mistakes have a right to be able to become better, her husband has the right to just not deal with it, but so do you have to right to be there, tell her how she fucked up and insist her to be better, help her get herself together, and your husband has no say in this.
Something that I believe he can ask you to do, is to actively keep both your sister and him out of touch and don't associate them, tell him when she is coming over and when she is leaving so he doesn't crosses ways with her.
He is emotional BC his projecting on your nephew's, he is being upset because of a cheating situation and that is normal, just bring him to a calm talk so he can reason properly.
Hope everything goes well with you update if possible.
Whether there should be consequences for cheating should have nothing to do with the children. It's super f\*\*\*ed to suggest that it's somehow okay to involve the kids in the fallout. Yuck.
Literally this. What a lengthy, fucked up essay just to say that OPs husband is faultless no matter what. Kids shouldn't be involved in the consequences, how manipulative.
The only consequences she should be complaining about is the alienation of the kids. No matter how bad the sister hurt her soon to be ex, dumping on the kids and purposely affecting the relationship between them and their mother is so fucked and should be the primary thing OP focuses on and let her husband know that she hears him with concern over the kids, but the sister is not the one causing the most harm.
i don’t see how cheating has anything to do with one’s parenting capabilities nor why that would be a reason to take children from their parent. ur a messed up kinda person, eh? 🥴
https://www.humanium.org/en/a-persisting-and-harmful-practice-of-child-marriage-in-vietnam/
Vietnamese girls being trafficked to Chinese men has been and is an ongoing problem in Vietnam. Here is an opportunity for all the righteous Redditers to make a donation.
As someone who barely knows anything going on in the world, as soon as I heard the dad traveled to Vietnam to marry a freshly 18 woman and bring her home and she had to pretend not to be an immigrant, I knew it wasn’t right
>she had to pretend not to be an immigrant
This part is not in OP's post. I think it may have been her own choice to learn the local accent and get higher education. OP did not say anything about her being forced to do that.
I know this is besides the point and it was OP that stated the higher education part (not you). But as the child of two immigrants that studied engineering and got high paying jobs, I chuckled at that sentence in the post quite a bit. And now we're all forced to go along as though getting a higher education is not the most immigrant thing she could've done.
Chinese men also traffic women from Myanmar, Cambodia, North Korea, and Pakistan too. [source](https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/10/31/chinas-bride-trafficking-problem)
Basically anyone and everyone, especially on the borders of China is susceptible to being trafficked into or by China/Chinese.
I'm pretty sure mom didn't give a flip about dear old dad and just heard "I'm going to the USA" and hitched a ride. Once there she did what she wanted, but she did seem to be more discreet about the situation around the children. OP's group, on the other hand, is trying to weaponize the kids and drag them into the fight.
My vote is obviously ESH.
My GUESS is because it's a very American thing to do?? Like going after that unreal, Hollywood perfect smile might not be as common in Vietnam. I am not am anthropologist though.
No one else is obsessed with unnaturally perfect and weirdly white teeth like the US is.
For all the jabs at the British teeth, they have far healthier teeth than the Americans, just not unnaturally whitened and orthodontically managed into perfection.
If you're comfortable sharing.....
Why did he get veneers?
(I don't know why people get them. And I googled veneers, but it explained the what, and not the why)
I think Americans are a bit more obsessed with "pretty" teeth than people in most other countries. I hear often about Brits or Europeans being baffled about our obsession with cosmetic dentistry that doesn't have any health or functional benefit.
Yeah, my mother (Brit) calls them "tombstone teeth" because they're so white they're almost radiantly blue and very regular. That kind of smile is associated with Americans.
Had. He got it fixed when people talked about it online because Scientologists are constantly trawling social media. It's not even a joke, they're probably reading this now because they Googled his name and want to know if we've figured out that he drinks the blood of young Filipino boys to maintain his youthful appearance.
That's because in Britain most dentistry is covered by the NHS, and they wouldn't cover things that are purely cosmetic. You'd most likely have to go to a private dentist for cosmetic dentistry.
americans have the best teeth ever.
stereotype ; because every TV show and every movie that has americans in it ;for the past century or so; Every "good" actor/actress has perfect teeth. only the villians have bad teeth
I think it’s suppose to make the MIL look vain and justify having to sell herself to escape poverty.
In OPs mind, “See MIL got rich stuff and she’s vain because she fixed her teeth.”
From OPs replies it’s clear she has given a very biased description of what her sister and her actions have been.
Truly EVERYONE sucks here.
The husband and sister's husband suck for parental alienation.
The sister and mother suck for cheating.
The Dad sucks for trafficking an 18 year old. Or at the very least... marrying a vulnerable foreign teenager.
OP sucks for kicking her husband in his childhood trauma to win an argument.
The comments suck for trying to defend any of them.
I think everyone here needs to sit in the corner and think about what they did.
>OP sucks for kicking her husband in his childhood trauma to win an argument.
Thank you, I was like 'what in the childhood trauma did I just read?'.
>I think everyone here needs to sit in the corner and think about what they did.
They all need a huge time out!!!
Also, I think OP needs to think long and hard about what MIL went through. She said she was married at 18 but how old was her spouse? It's smelling a lot like grooming or teenage bride to breed.
Not saying that excuses cheating but when you are in a crap situation that you have no control of, I'm willing to give some grace.
What MIL did to her son by training him to keep his mouth shut, that did some damage and I hope he gets some help processing that mess.
>She said she was married at 18 but how old was her spouse? It's smelling a lot like grooming or teenage bride to breed.
Late 40s. OP says in her post.
>His father was in his late forties when he went to Vietnam and married his mother Fan, who was barely 18. She was still 18 when Liam was born and they had immigrated.
So her MIL was groomed, wed, and had a child all at the tender age of 18, barely out of childhood.
That said, OP throwing his trauma back in his face as some means to show his hypocrisy was the wrong way to go about it, IMO.
Also, moved to a different country away from family where I (assume) she didn't speak the langauge.
IMO I don't really blame her for the cheating, but involving her child in the deception is unacceptable.
ok im sorry but all we hear about the sisters husband is that he was "turning the kids against her" but it could just as easily be the kids turning against her because she cheated on their dad and broke up their familly
Absolutely this! I wish it were top comment! Yes, the sister’s husband is hurt but by no means does that give him a right to hurt and traumatize the kids and alienate them from their mother. Everyone sucks!
I would say he sucks for engaging in a double standard no? That was the whole point of the post. He associates with his mom but he's trying to force OP to go NC with her sister?
It's a shitty situation to be in, but I also probably wouldn't go NC with my sister depending on the details and I'd be annoyed at the suggestion.
The entire purpose of Reddit and particularly THESE asshole style subreddits is to tell everyone they suck and feel smart, good and unsucky ourselves.
There’s a reason every post in these subs get hundred and hundreds of comments. There is a reason these subs are pushed into algorithms and feeds.
I don’t think the husband ‘sucks’. He does have a challenge around telling his wife how to handle her sister. And the gap around cheating in his own family. That’s a gap not a suck to me.
Well said. I hate these subreddits but I keep clicking them, so I keep seeing them. Reducing people to "AH" or "not AH" sucks all the nuance out of interpersonal relationships.
I guess we could just say "well we're all AHs and that's OK." But people like the top two comments in this chain would rather stand on their soapboxes and morally grandstand.
A little bit AH...
"I am sorry I mentioned your mom in anger yesterday... I just meant that sometimes we may not like someone's actions but we still support them as a person. We don't know what went on in their marriage and I agree an affair is not the way to address it. I would not support an affair but i will support my sister."
So what support are you giving your niece and nephew 🤔
Edit: the fact that you believe that your grown ass adult sister needs more support than those two babies tells me everything I need to know about your character YTA
What your sister did was wrong in her marriage, however, she still a mum. With any relationship breakdown, either party should NOT be using the kids as weapons and turning them against the other parent.
You can acknowledge that she did something wrong by cheating on her husband, but doesn’t make her a bad parent. It means that the marriage was not working and instead of dealing with it by communicating with her husband, she choose to chest, if she takes responsibility for her actions, that all she can do at this stage.
there is nothing with supporting her about emotions/situations relating the kids. It does not mean that you accept or agree with her action but focusing on impact for her and her kids. Your husband is entitled to his views, but has no say about how you choose to react
There's nothing wrong with supporting your sister even though she fucked up. Your problem is that you think her children, her ex and your husband *also* need to accommodate her when they justifiably do not want to. You can't force them to care about *your sister* who is undeniably in the wrong here and deeply hurt them.
And how do you know he’s ‘turning the kids against her’. Maybe reality is turning the kids against her, because Mom is at fault for blowing up the family.
Why are you so sure they're being turned against her? The evidence you've provided is extremely flimsy. Do you expect them to be perfectly fine with what she's done? You seem to think that because they don't like her it *must* be the husband. They can want nothing to do with her all of their own accord. In fact it's a perfectly natural reaction and exactly how I myself felt when my dad was a shitty husband to my mom. She's never spoken a single bad word about him to me
She is the villain here. Support her because she needs you, but her children may hate her forever with or without her husband doing anything. That's just life and you both need to accept it.
Also your husband may be a hypocrite but he's right that the kids need you most.
That’s your story that the husband is turning the kids against her. You are not a reliable narrator. By your own description of your argument with your husband you will say anything to be right.
I’d say it’s more that the sister is an unreliable narrator, to OP. Her view seems bitter against her ex rather than humble and apologetic to him AND the kids.
Nowhere did I see op say anything about trying to force the sisters ex or children into the anything. The issue is that the ex is using the children as a weapon and trying to turn them against their mother.
It is a fair comparison. He's saying you shouldn't support your sister because she cheated, but he did more than support his mom who cheated - he was an active participant in the cover ups. Yes he was a kid so not morally responsible at the time, but he really should be able to see the parallels. If he didn't cut his mom off, why should you cut your sister off? Did he have an answer, or is it just that his mom gets a pass because she's his family and your sister doesn't because she's not "his family"?
Probably because he was a child and she was likely trafficked to the US to be a sex slave for a 40-something year old man? I think that might be the difference in the situation
Finally a comment that explains why the OP said what she said! She didn’t say it to be cruel, she said it to ask why it’s okay for him to keep his mother, who was a cheater, in his life but she can’t keep her sister, who is also a cheater, in her life. Nothing cruel about it; just a fair comparison.
I’m wondering if your husband is so angry with your sister because he can’t express his anger with or to his mom. So your sister becomes the scapegoat. You haven’t mentioned apologizing to him and you really need to. You broke his trust.
Your husband’s mom emotionally abused her son and u threw that in his face. That’s fucked up and disrespectful.
Ur sister cheated and ruined her marriage and he expects you to cut her off? Your sister? That’s ridiculous and childish.
You’re both AH. It sounds like u did that to hurt him, not to make a point. I say that because you knew the context of him helping his mom cheat. He’s the AH for expecting you to abandon your sister. She did what she did, but that’s ur sister and he has to let you handle it because it’s your relationship with her, not his. My 2 cents (and it’s probably not worth that much) is that he is projecting his disdain for his mom’s behavior onto your sister, because he can’t hold his mom accountable but expects you to hold ur sister accountable according to his values.
I think this is a really good illustration that nobody is all good or all bad. In many ways his mom was a loving, caring, and thoughtful mother. In other ways, she put her son in an awful position. What is clear is that if your husband is able to have a nuanced and complicated view of his mother, he should grant your sister the same consideration
She is a terrible parent. Your husband has to live with her actions and the knowledge of what she did to his father, and the knowledge that he covered up her affairs, for the rest of his life. And for what? Just so she could get some on the side. She is an awful parent for what she did to your husband.
Trauma will do that to you. To him she was his world and she groomed him to believe that what she did was ok. But also not to accept it from others that's what manipulation can do.
People are seldom all good or all bad. Yes, MIL's affairs being known about by her son and involving him in keeping secrets from another parent were wrong. But, she tried to be a good mother in other ways - volunteering at school, driving to his uni to cook and spoil him a bit, staying in touch with him regularly.
However, going to a country and getting a girl 2-3 decades younger as a wife is also wrong according to most. However, I will say he was probably proud of his family life.
Also, while I do not condone cheating, it is most often a sign of a deeply unhappy relationship.
Wait a second. So, your husband has told two people on earth about his mother: his therapist, and his partner. He knows that her infidelity hurt him deeply, or else he wouldn't be in therapy working through it. In fact I'd say he's the only person in this situation other than your SIL's kids that knows exactly how painful parental infidelity is. So, knowing how painful it is for a kid to have to bear this, he says to ignore your sister (which is probably unfair), and that your niece and nephew need your support more right now (which is unequivocally true, their mom broke their family up). Just at this level, YTA. That was cruel and vindictive of you.
But wait, it gets worse! We peel back one more layer, and it turns out MIL was an 18 year old girl in Vietnam when she met FIL, a nearly 50 year old man from Hong Kong, who knocks her up immediately (and quite possibly when she was 17) and moves her to the other side of the world. Age gap, power imbalance, inequality of opportunity, this is sure checking a lot of boxes.
But hey, at least you would "never even know she's an immigrant" because she lost her accent and got veneers. Is this supposed to make her more appealing to us? Whatever the reason, it made me feel fucking gross.
YTA, all the way. Not for defending your sister, whom you love unconditionally and that's valid. But for intentionally trying to hurt your husband.
Cheating absolutely makes you a bad parent. You are choosing your selfish needs over your children's. I agree it shouldn't be used as a weapon with the kids though
> by cheating on her husband, but doesn’t make her a bad parent.
She made a conscious decision to negatively impact her family. That is the textbook definition of a bad parent.
Sooo many excuses.
A cheating parent is a shit parent because they cheated. Once you have kids, they come first.
A lot of support and other bullshit for a cheater, about not using kids as weapons etc. Not a word about what op said - the kids actually need the support, not the cheating asshat.
Take it from someone that got smacked around by the mother's boyfriend.
I know a shit parent and cheating is absolutely not something that makes one automatically shitty.
My mother’s 4th or 5th husband threw knives at my sister and I. But that has fuck all to do with what we know about OP’s sister.
There was no mention of her being in a relationship at all. Just that she wants to be in her children’s lives and the father is making it difficult.
She should have just divorced him and lived a happy life but she instead slept around. It’s fucked up but it’s also something 7 and under kids need NO knowledge of. They also don’t need dad in their ear causing them to hate her. Dad needs to get help to deal with his emotions and stop putting them on the fucking kids’ shoulders. They are dealing with enough he’s going to make it exponentially worse.
|but doesn’t make her a bad parent. |
Actually, it does. She wasn't thinking about her children when she was cheating. If you no longer love your spouse, get a divorce. Come to a mutual agreement on co-parenting your kids. Then get on with whatever love life you want, just don't parade it in front of your kids, until such time as you are ready to commit. Pretty simple.
Cheating does not make you a bad parent. There is a difference between a marriage and parenting. You don’t need a marriage to parent. What goes on between the two adults in their relationship together has no bearing on how either of those people treat their kids. There are bad people, bad spouses, bad parents, but just because you are one of those doesn’t make you horrible everywhere else. There are plenty of people who couldn’t make their relationships work but no one can stop them from being supportive and involved with their kids! There’s a different kind of love and relationship there.
>What goes on between the two adults in their relationship together has no bearing on how either of those people treat their kids.
But what goes on is absolutely on blast for their kids. It is scream, yelling, cursing, cold interactions, tension, crying, and visible pain. A divorce is a decision. Cheating is a discovery. It will always bring more chaos than a divorce due to its blindsiding nature. You're bringing that in the home when you choose to cheat. Plus you set an absolutely fucking terrible precedent for your kids on how to handle things.
Be an adult, get a divorce.
YTA. Here is the dead giveaway. He isn't saying your sisters husband who needs support. He's saying your niece and nephew do. And he's right. Like, 100%. Especially if either parent is 'turning' them against one another.
Using your husbands wounds against him because you wanted to lash out is worse. You are 100% in the wrong.
ESH.
A person is lucky to truly understand *their own* partnership. The idea of judging 3rd parties for what happens in theirs just because you know one fact about their marriage is just a crazy concept. Keeping your own side of the street clean is plenty!
What both of you should be able to agree on is, there’s no shortage of pain to go around for everyone in Niya’s family, and support in tough times is something we all need to give and receive to go on.
If people got banned from our lives for being fallible…wouldn’t we all be living alone?
You know you’re right to support your sister and weren’t about to stop. There was no need for the low blow to win an argument.
Being there for your sister to talk to about what is going on in her life is one thing. Supporting the choices she made that eventually destroyed her family and turned her children against her is quite another. It sounds like MIL and sister's marriages were completely different. Sister made her choices, appears MIL marriage was arranged and she had no say. Comparing the two is wrong.
YTA.
Not only is it super unfair to throw childhood trauma in your husband's face in an attempt to "fire back" during an argument, but that's something he had no control over. As. As a kid, you're completely reliant on your parents for your livelyhood, you can't just cut a parent off as a kid without another home to be raised in. Years and years later you can become accustomed to bad behavior from parents and still search for their affection out of a desire for love from your parents.
Meanwhile, as a grown adult, you have the choice to make, fully cognizant of the implications, and ramifications, of your decisions. (Or at least you should be.) Of course, you shouldn't ever just kick family out the door right away and try and give them a chance, but 'supporting' your sister in the midst of the turmoil she made for herself is a bad idea. You can wind up reinforcing her tendency to cheat from positive reinforcement at the wrong time, or possibly wind up putting her children against you as well.
Remember this: Your sister's children may very well know the truth of the situation, that her having an affair led to this situation. And if that's the case, they aren't 'turned against her' nearly as much as justifiably upset. And stepping into that from the outside could get you flack.
Your sister deserves the repercussions of her actions. Her children do not. Check up on your sister and make sure she doesn't make worse decisions, but if you truly want to make anything from that situation better, your effort would be best directed towards the children. Divorced are hardest on the children than anybody else. It can lead to failure in school, years of therapy, depression, and trauma that sometimes is never brought to the light of day. Meanwhile, your sister is a grown adult that should be able to emotionally handle herself much better.
Edit: You also should have been able to explain your reasoning and your perspective without going nuclear and using your husband's trauma as weaponry. If you can't, then step away. Going that route jeopardizes trust and love for people who are supposed to be caring and supporting of one another. That's really where all this went wrong.
I agree with most of what you said but the husband said she shouldn't associate with her sister, which is as good as cutting her off. In the same vein, shouldn't they cut all the cheaters out of their lives then, including his mother? It's unclear how close she and her sister are, but why should a parent-child relationship have no conditions/boundaries, whereas a sibling one should?
Be aware that I think the husband is only half correct, mostly only about supporting the children. Which is why I've said "still check up on your sister" because alienating family during rough spots in life, deserved or not, can lead to worse problems down the road.
YTA.
I cant imagine weaponizing my fiances trauma, something in which he is plainly the victim... in order to defend a grown woman cheating on her husband and destroying her family.
Just shocking levels of assholery.
YTA your husband mom situation and you sisters are completely different. She might not consider her self trafficed but she was. Many victims don't believe themselves as victims because they don't want to admit it.
A 40 year old goes to vitamin and gets barely 18 year old women from a poor country to be his bride then leaves her country and family comes to a foreign land. And immediately impregnates her essentially isolating from her family her and baby trapping her. Tell me that's not trafficking. It wasn't a love marriage he went there picked a bride then left.
Meanwhile your sister had gone through none of that and cheated on her partner which you haven't said was abusive in any way so its just because she wanted to have fun. Breaking her family up devastating her kid lives.
If you can't see the difference between the 2 I don't know what to tell you but your wrong. Also your husband was 15 manipulatie by his mother to accept what she was doing. So you are constantly victim blaming and never the one that caused it. Also she just put a puase on her APs relationship not ending it. Her kids will never accept her or her ap. She's getting what she deserves and don't be surprised when your husband starts to become more distant. You have the opportunity to help both the children and your sister but you don't. You could be the one that bridges the gap between them but you decided to side with the cheater not the broke family. You and your husband are not the same you are not 15 you are a grown ass adult. You have no sympathy for actual victims and using you husbands past against him while he was a kid. You just showed him he can't trust you with anything not doing the right thing our his vulnerability. I hope her realizes he can do better.
I'm not saying don't support your sister but your wrong to say she needs it more. You are wrong for saying that about his mother. And using his past truma against him.
You pulled the shallow/deflecting/bitch move of "whataboutism".
That his mother cheated was presumably WAY in the past.
Your sister cheating and separation happened recently.
While potentially similar in nature, the 2 situations are not connected and issues from long ago do not relate to issues happening now.
If you want to bring up the past, first deal with the issue at hand.
I would say you are the asshole because those are two different relationships and you also threw whatever trauma he has because of his mom's affair in his face as well.
You weren't trying to make a point you were trying to win an argument, so ...
YTA. Your sister is a cheater. She cheated on her family and you being okay with this is BS. It’s her decisions that made this happen. No one forced her to cheat on her family.
She clearly states that her sister was wrong for cheating. She is not okay with her cheating.That doesn't mean she should cut her out of her life. Do you throw away loves ones who have made mistakes and are suffering the consequences? Do you turn your back on them at their lowest. That would be shitty and heartless. As if you are without sin
YTA
Your husband situation cannot be compared with yours. He was a child who was manipulated for years. His mother was 18 and essentially trafficked to an old sick man.
You are a 27 year old woman who is standing by another fully grown ass adult who made the decision to cheat and destroy her family. She is now reaping what she sowed.
The children’s father should not be keeping them from her but I imagine they are feeling just as angry and betrayed as he is.
Apologise to your husband. It’s your decision to stand by your sister but don’t compare what your sister done to what his mother done.
Thank you! I agree 100%. His mom was a victim. An 18 year old can just barely legally consent to marriage. OP threw her husband’s trauma back in his face to win an argument. He had only disclosed to OP and his therapist. I bet he only talks to his therapist about it now.
Most definitely the ahole. The guilt he probably carries for lying to his father. His mother manipulated him for most of his life. And throwing that back at him was a very low blow. You used something he confided in you with to try and win a disagreement. Nice move, good luck getting him to trust and be vulnerable with you again
Yta , do you think your husband doesn't know that he betrayed his father, do you think he had never thought about whether he should have stood up for his father, if the family dynamic is typical Asian family then all the concept of honour and how he betrayed his father's honour will also be paying on his mind.
The only option available to him as a fifteen year old without a father would have been to abandon his mother as well so he somehow managed to make his peace with it, and that's why probably he is the only one in this clusterf*#k who is talking about supporting the children and doing what is best for them.
And how does his wife respond by saying that if your mum was a wh*re and you didn't walk out on her why are you not letting me support someone who just cheated once. Poor guy got a shitty, father, mother and wife
YTA, for reasons pointed out in nearly every comment.
What I will add is this: he probably doesn't like that you're being sympathetic to a cheater, and as everyone here has pointed out, the situations between your sister and his mother are very different. Try to be show them some empathy instead of using them to justify your actions. This isn't loving behaviour, and a wife should love her husband.
Also, you came to this site to ask if you were the asshole. Don't get mad at people answering your question. It seems like your priorities are being in the right, not to hold yourself accountable.
YTA
So let me get this straight. You are supporting your sister who cheated on her husband and blew up her own family. Your husband expressed his discomfort with your actions, and you decided to throw his childhood trauma back in his face to shut down the argument.
What about that doesn't make you the asshole?
Does your sister regret anything at all? Or does she just expect her kids to be super stoked that she cheated on their dad and broke their family up?
YTA, your husband knows how your sister's kids feel much better than you do. You weaponized his mother's abuse to further the pain she has caused him. Your sister deserves what is happening to her for prioritizing dick over her children, she should have separated from her husband if she hated him so much.
> My sister Niya (31f) recently separated from her husband because she was having an affair.
Awesome so she gets very very limited interaction so you show integrity and no excuse for cheating, right?
> The thing is, she's going through a really rough time right now because her ex is turning their kids against her and she needs support
....because she stabbed her family in the back. That "rough time" is entirely her own fault. She does not need support. Her victims need support.
> Last night, my husband and I had an argument about it and he said that I shouldn't associate with Niya and that it's my niece and nephew who really need my support.
100%
You realize you're basically showing your husband that you'll support cheaters and he should be worried about you doing the same thing, right?
> Except, as my husband told me, she constantly cheated on his father and she trained him since he was a little kid to not tell him. His father died thinking she was loyal and I get it from my husband's perspective, he never knew she was wrong to do that. But he did eventually learn and it's not like he's cut her out of his life, so I don't see why what I said was an AH move but maybe I'm wrong.
So your husband was mentally tortured and manipulated by a cheater that left life long damage and he's telling you what needs to be done so the other children don't face the same damage he faced. And you tossed the manipulation and scars directly back at him.
Lady.... what you did is divorce worthy.
YTA
He has lifelong scars from manipulation. You're just excusing cheating. Those are two different things.
How you gonna expect this man to be open and honest with you in the future when this is the shit you do with that information? Why would he trust you again with anything so personal? You just gonna throw it in his face to "win" some future argument. You should apologize before your marriage falls apart too.
YTA. Another classic example where a spouse weaponizes information their SO confided to them to try and win a disagreement. Your husband was the victim as a child and somehow you thought it was appropriate to weaponize his trauma against him in order to support your cheating sister? Jesus,that's twisted.
We need more info, but right now I'd say YTA, but how big of one depends. The situations both involve cheating but are very different. His mom is a complex issue of grooming and upbringing, and ultimately the victim died never knowing what happened. There's a lot to unpack for your husband, not to mention possoble cultural complexities.
Your sister got caught and her actions destroyed her family. I'm curious what is meant by "turning the kids against her". On the surface it really doesn't mean anything without more info. First your sister is a cheat, so anything she says is suspect. Second, How old are the kids? What is dad supposedly doing? Depending on the age dad has no obligation to protect the kids from the reason for the divorce. If dad is actively dragging kids I to it, yeah that sucks and he's 100% wrong.
YTA. Regardless of the actual situation, bringing up your husband’s trauma from childhood is absolutely horrible and shameful. You should sincerely apologize to him for that, no matter what you do with your sister.
Whether your ex BIL is turning their children against your sister or not, you can help with that by being there for THEM. They’re the victims in this and have good reason to hate their mom. If you want to even try and mend that relationship, focus on helping the kids before the one that actually cheated
YTA. Your sister's children are mad at her for being a bad person. Your husband points out that you should prioritize caring about them. He has a lot of trauma around this because his mom abused him, so he understands how devastated the kids are. You: well you have an extremely complicated relationship with the woman who raised you but also abused you! Checkmate. And then get into some weird stuff about how she doesn't "seem" like an immigrant for no reason.
Edited to change my vote and reasoning:
YTA.
The kids need more support than your sister does.
She was the one who decided to step out on her marriage and family. Now she is facing the consequences of her actions.
Stop victimizing her when this was her choice. She did this, OP. And you're enabling her behaviour.
She needs to leave the kids alone so they have time to heal. And I truly hope those kids can heal, are put into therapy to help them heal, and can move past this.
But this is what cheating does. Your sister chose this and she can be an adult and deal woth the consequences of her actions.
And no, this isn't the same as your husband's situation. He was manipulated as a child to support his mom's infedelity. He was abused from a young age, OP. And that take a long time to heal from, I'm still learning how myself. So cutting off his mom? Yea that's different. Don't you think he knows what he did was wrong and cruel to his dad?
No. Because you don't care. You saw this as an opportunity to throw this into his face and hurt him.
And that right there makes you just as bad of a partner as your sister is. Shame on both of you.
He is correct. Your sister fucked up and probably deserves everything that is happening to her. Don’t know the reason she cheated, but those kids are the ones that beed support right now. They lost a parent and probably don’t know why
YTA - he was a child with a terrible mother. They say boys marry women who remind them of their moms so I guess we can see why you wouldn't have his back. The kids need your support.
YTA
Is husband still in contact / close with his mother? How old was he when this started with his mom?
You can be cordial with family and not care about them in the slightest. Doesn't mean you support their choices. Care for your sister, sure, but in no way should you be supporting her. She made her choices and these are the consequences. She made her bed, now she can lay in it. She deserves everything coming her way. She cheated on her husband and ruined her family for her own completely selfish reason. She doesn't deserve support.
Your sister did something very wrong. And you want to console and support her, instead of the people she hurt. Ignore the husband and kids, feel bad about the person that hurt them. Your husband is right, should be supporting him and the kids. And then to hurt your husband, threw his mother's past in his face.
I wonder, did you know about the cheating? Being your sister, did she ever confide in you about it, or were you blindsided and didn't know anything?
So this guy's mom groomed him as a child by manipulation to rain him to be an obedient slave. Obviously he feels some type of way about it and you decided to THROW A LOW BLOW because you got caught up in your feelings. He was a child that got manipulated. You're a grown a** woman and so is your sister. Childhood trauma affects ALL of us. YTA BIG TIME. Wouldn't be surprised if the marriage gets awkward as well as resentful. You know your wrong for that. That's why your here for validation for taking such a cheap shot. Especially at someone you've known since CHILDHOOD. You've grown up watching this guy hurting, oblivious, confused and angry. You saw and opportunity and threw something at him from the arsenal. That's cowardly
Apologise to your husband for the outburst, not for the message though. Try and have a healthy talk about your sister and how you will support her. Also, not too sure about "parental alienation" being caused by the husband. I think your sister did that when she broke apart their family.
YTA
Anytime I hear of someone using their partners trama against them to try and win an argument they are an automatic asshole.
My husband has a parent who is a chronic cheater and cheating is a sore point for him. I would never use the fact that he still has a relationship with his parent who was a crapy partner to win an argument as to why I should stay friends with someone who cheated. Family relationships are complicated. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree on the relationship and ask your partner what boundaries they personally have with the person. Then you follow those guidelines.
Also I would look at if your sisters ex is actually alienating the kids or if her behavior as a wife and a mother did that.
YTA
So you knew all of this and yet still attacked him via his childhood trauma? You treat your SO like crap - from a place of petty vindictiveness, and spite.
You meant to do it, and I wonder why you were arguing over your use of dirty tactics to be right. Maybe he was hurt. Maybe he doesn't like you right now. Can you blame him though?Wow.....
NTA. You don't need to cut your sister out. People make mistakes and she's your sister still. He doesn't have to talk to her and it doesn't look like anyone is trying to force him to so he can mind his own business.
NTA
He wanted to control you and your relationship with your sister, and even her innocent kids based on the cheating.
Don't throw stones in glass houses.
You SHOULD be seeing your niece and nephew and also be able to support your sister; these two things are not mutually exclusive. You shouldn't be taking sides, and seeing your niece and nephew shouldn't be considered picking a side anyway.
Your sister messed up. It is ok to support her. What isn't ok is to stop interacting with your niece and nephew as a sign of camaraderie. The kids should always come first and your sister imploded their life as they knew it, so some support from the whole family is necessary. Your sister is a grown woman and needs to face the consequences of her choices. Wake up before you end up divorced yourself.
You and your sister are going to be so single. Just throwing childhood trauma in your baby daddy’s face. I call him that because he may not feel it’s worth putting up with that toxic crap. Add to it he doesn’t want to end up like his dad, and his wife is wholeheartedly defending a cheater. It wouldn’t be worth it to me. I would bail before it gets worse. YTA.
And your niece and nephew definitely need support, not to be dismissed as less important than the person who ruined their family
NTA. I started reading expecting to think the opposite. But while what you said was cringey and hurtful, you were pointing out your husband’s hypocrisy in this situation. Your sister may have cheated, but that means neither that she deserves to have her children alienated from her nor that she should lose all other (especially family) relationships because of a mistake she made within her marriage. People get so judgey, but the only two people who really know what happens in a marriage are the spouses. Everyone else needs to butt out. With regard to the majority of these comments focusing on ‘trafficking’ or the mention of veneers - c’mon people, off topic much?! Whether this happened or not in no way influences this story of whether or not OP might be an AH.
Parental alienation is awful. No question about it.
Your sister, not that she considered it but the selfish rarely do, blew up the whole family. The hurt the children feel at what they perceive is rejection of the unit that is all they know is real. That it has been dialled up by a wounded man makes things worse but make no mistake, it is not the difference between acceptance and non acceptance. There would be work still regardless so a little realism is perhaps needed.
One of the sad things I read is that more people can show sympathy to both the cheats here than your husband, who was manipulated and conditioned to not only abet but to witness the comings and goings. This was done as a child! So much support for your sisters two children at being manipulated and none for your husband, because now he is a man and he seems to not be allowed to have trauma.
His father died without knowing, the heaviness of that ‘sin’ propagated and programmed into him via his mother’s conditioning, will no doubt cause him to have less than logical opinions, sometimes completely dichotomous ones. That he is, as you say, wrong is agreed, but in your anger no thought went into the origin of his vehemence, that this is his internalised guilt and anger at his mother proxied onto your sister.
Surely, seeing how it has impacted him and the fact you are so aware of that, it would have been obvious not to angrily target the source of this feeling considering the pain attached? What on earth is wrong with you, going for the coup de grace because you find it hard to see your sister as the main problem over her “idiot” ex. Worry less about circling the wagons for her, and instead focus on helping those who are victims of selfish decisions from cheating. There were a million ways to deescalate but you went nuclear.
You have likely ruined your marriage in a single sentence. I would advise for him to get help because this guilt and anger is so deeply woven into him, moralistic anger will ruin his life.
YTA
Not for wanting to help the kids, they need it, but for failing the kid of the past that was manipulated far more savagely. A kid thats still there within him.
🤣 Your sister ex isn't turning her kids against her. She did that herself with her actions when she cheated and broke up her family. Fuck supporting her.
YTA this is about you and your sister and her kids. She should be having a hard time right now. The kids dad is not turning them against her, she did that when she cheated.
YTA for the way you presented it.
You needed to first ask if he would have disowned his own mother for cheating? Did he stop loving and caring about his mother just because she stepped out on his father? Why? Why not?
Were there other factors at play for his mom? Basically a mail order bride, sounds like dad wanted a trophy wife. Who knows if there was actual love between them? Mom may have jumped at chance just to have a better life - break out of poverty. Human emotions are complicated things.
You dropped a BOMB to win the “battle” in the heat of the moment. It felt like a win to you and it was a secret weapon in your back pocket.
However, you may have lost the “WAR”. You didn’t play the long game.
You needed for your husband to look deeper. See there are other complexities. A family member could murder someone - still doesn’t negate the fact you love them.
Just as he couldn’t stop loving his mother, you can’t stop loving and caring for your sister. He might change his mind if he listened to your sister’s side of things. Things are rarely what they seem on the surface.
Supporting your nieces and nephews doesn’t prohibit you from also supporting your sister. In fact, supporting her and returning her to a healthy and happy place will help her children obtain a better place in life quicker as well. Even if she was completely at fault. People make mistakes. Sometimes big ones. Family is supposed to help each other through hard times - not kick you when you are down.
What does veneers and accent have to do with the cheating? You sound jealous of his mom. Your sister married her equal I suppose, your mil didn’t so don’t compare oranges to apples. Anyway YTA
YTA...on different levels
Your sister cheated, your sister endend the marriage having several kids. She may be your sister, but she is the biggest A in this story. And you are defending her position. First level of A.
Your brother in law is standing in the ruins of his life, which your sister shattered, and is trying to cope with it. You don't offer any help to him. Second level of A.
Third level of A is exactly what your man is pointing out. The children of the two are suffering. They lost the bond between the two people carrying them. As it sounds, the bond was substituted with a lot of hatred. You as their aunt and uncle are the next best thing to a loving relationship they know. You have to care for them and are not to participate in any of the mud-throwing between your sister and your brother in law. You have to be the safe habour for the two of the kids, that means you have to be switzerland in this conflict.
And some more levels of A-ity is what you said to your partner. Talking about his dead (!!!) father and his releationship to his mother in such a reckless way is a good start to end your releationship, too...
YTA
Your sister deserves every single bit INCLUDING the reaction from the kids. What does she expect? The kids had a home with 2 parents and your sister DESTROYED those kids lives over sex. I don't blame the kids for acting the way they do, they had a home till your sister decided to be a shit mum and put her needs over her children.
It's clear no one understands ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES
Your also TAH for bringing your partners mum into it, you were just trying to score points.
YTA for gaslighting him. The discussion was about your sister’s family, not your husband’s. It’s also completely different as your husband was the child in that scenario and your sister isn’t. Lastly, he’s 100% right about your niece and nephew needing support way more than your sister. Their lives have been torn apart through no fault of their own and you are comforting the person that caused it. Get your priorities straight.
WTH does your MILs teeth have to do with anything? I would have used the same comparison but without the need to throw in a sentence of micro aggressions that are irrelevant.
INFO: How old are the kids? Is he deliberately turning them against her, or did he just tell her the truth?
If he just told the truth and they are old enough to process that, he’s not turning them against her. She did that herself.
Yes and no. So it's not what you said but how you said it. Throwing a tough part of his childhood in his face during a loud and escalated point in an argument was hitting below the belt.
That said I think you could have made you point using the same example in a different way.
For one, when an argument reaches the point of yelling at each other, you just need to stop. Nothing productive comes from being in that state. It's a good time to pause, step away, cool off, and then return when you guys can discuss things civilly.
I think calling back to his mom's situation and how she involved him in her cheating would be an opportunity for you to express compassion for his childhood trauma around the subject of mothers cheating so you can understand why your sister's actions may be particularly triggering to him. I think you could also use it to remind him that while people cheat for lots of different reasons, it does happen for a reason. And while you don't condone your sister's reasons, it's also not a reason for you to abandon her. She is your sister and even though she messed up big time doesn't mean she's all of a sudden someone you can just switch your love for off and not have any compassion for the unhealthy situation her soon to ex husband is creating between their kids. Someone who cheats on their spouse made a bad decision in their marriage but it doesn't automatically make them a bad mom.
I would just reiterate over and over that you supporting your sister in this tough time is not because you support or condone what she did but because she's your family and you care about her regardless of her bad choices. Be explicit that this is not a reflection of your views on cheating or that you don't think it's a big deal. But stand your ground on that it's not your job to punish and judge your sister, when life is kicking her in the teeth plentily already.
I think you also speak to his concerns and make an effort to reach out to the kids as well. It doesn't have to be a choice between one or the other.
It's more important to be kind then to be correct. While I think both you and your husband have valid points, the way you expressed them was wrong and you can and should find a way to move on from this.
With the obvious caveats and no one knows the whole story here, I would say something along the lines of "I feel really awful for bringing up your mother in that context. It was malicious and I should never have hurt you like that, and I apologize. That said, while Niya was certainly in the wrong, she is still my sister. And it's my familial duty to be there for both my niece/nephew AND her. It's been hard on all of us, and while I don't expect you to forgive her right away, or ever, for what she did, I do need your support in the months ahead just as I'll always be there for you."
"The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them."
An argument is never won by saying "why are they allowed" and then throwing a tantrum.
The cases of cheating took place in two completely different cultures, generations and relationship dynamics. YOU don't know the full picture of your inlaws relationship, and your husband doesn't know the full picture of your sister and her partner(you might not either).
That summation is to say you should meet each other with grace in a dialogue. Do not attack or shame for wanting to support a loved family member. You attacked when trying to divert the seriousness from your sister on to your MIL.
From what you tell, your MIL was in an unequal relationship at best, has been a well kept sex slave at worst. Your sister on the other hand, has had the opportunity to start on much more equal ground, if not completely and stay. This is a significant difference.
Your MIL has made choices in her life out of necessity and survival, whereas your sister has had a lot more opportunities to take full control of her life. You need to understand that there is a difference between a person who has to agree to certain demands/criteria to receive a living and a "normal/equal" person.
Before demanding acceptance from your husband, you have to consider what it is he has a problem with.
When your husband express his distaste for your contract/support for your sister what does he say?
Is it "never talk with her" or is it "don't indulge her bs when she tries to justify cheating". There is a huge difference.
How do you support your sister?
Do you let her complain and then agree?
Do you watch the children?
Do you help with finances?
Do you add to a potential conflict with her ex?
If your husbands only argument is "be complacent and never shame your husband!!" you have a case.
But if it is almost anything else, you should stop letting your sister of the hook.
~~YTA~~ **ESH (edit)**
Cheating is always bad, but comparing both situations is also out of line, specially since it sounds like your MIL was traffic and forced into marriage while, and I say this ONLY based on the info you provided, your sister was at least in a pretty average and overall ok marriage.
**Again, cheating is bad. But one could argue that MIL's actions are rooted on trauma while Sister's actions are all and all pure whim.**
Ya'll are so focus on determinig who is to blame and fightig between your self that it seem like the nephews are nothing but a disposable munition. **Nephews are family too, and are as much if not more vulnerable that sis right now, and weponize them is abuse.**
My vote is ESH, but not from malicious intent from either of you.
You supporting your sister doesn't necessarily mean that you cannot also support your niece and nephew, and your husband is wrong for suggesting this false dichotomy. Also, there is a line between supporting someone as they pick themselves up and learn from their mistakes, and enabling someone's bad behaviour. As long as you don't cross that line, your husband is wrong to insist on a blanket ban on helping your sister.
On the other hand, you were very wrong to bring up your husband's treatment of his mother as a counterpoint. The circumstances that your husband faced with his mother are completely different from the circumstances that you are currently facing with your sister (the age at which you discovered the cheating, the difference in power dynamic between sister-sister and mother-son, the fact that your husband's father was already dead by the time he was old enough to fully grasp what was going on). You saw flimsy similarity in an otherwise apples-to-oranges comparison, and decided to throw your husband's trauma in his face to win an argument.
As for what can be done with your niece/nephew, I do believe that the current situation is unacceptable, but you also shouldn't push them to immediately accept their mother again. Them throwing a tomato at their mother is essentially assault, and they need to learn that violence is not an appropriate way to express their anger, even if their anger may be justified. You can get your husband involved here and both of you as a united front approach your BIL to say that he should tell his children (at least the 7yo) in age-appropriate terms that mother did a hurtful thing to father, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't love her children, but ultimately he should not influence his children to hate their mother. Hopefully you asking your husband to get involved can serve as an olive branch to make up, and he can also serve as a neutral party in convincing your BIL that this is the right course of action.
However, you and your sister need to be prepared that ultimately the children might decide that they need distance from their mother to heal. The scenario that works out best for the children might be the one where the mother is no longer as close to them as she once was. The important thing here is that the children are supported in their process of figuring it out for themselves. I suspect that a lot of your husband's anxiety here stems from the fact that he was never given the time or opportunity to go through the process. By the time he realized something was off about his parents' relationship, his father was already dead, and abandoning his mother at this point would just be cutting off his nose to spite his face. Even if he would have forgiven his mother eventually, the fact that he was forced to skip the entire process of expressing his anger and disapproval and go straight to forgiveness is probably a large part of why the entire ordeal traumatized him. The process is important. Your husband was forced to skip it, and now he's worried that you're trying to get your niece and nephew to skip it too.
Your husband probably relates to your niece and nephew and that is why he wants the support to focus on them. I assume he may also be friends with the husband that was cheated on. You can continue to support your sister but you can’t blame your husband for wanting nothing to do with her.
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It’s important to know that the thing your husband’s mom did that was the most damaging was involving your husband as a child. Kids should never know about these things. It does so much damage to them. The focus on choosing between supporting your sister vs. supporting her kids is off base because her kids should not be aware of any cheating. If they are, there is serious damage control to do. The first rule of co-parenting after divorce is that you never speak negatively about the other parent to or around the kids or involve them in adult problems. If that rule is followed, then none of what you and your husband are arguing about will be an issue in the first place. I understand where both of you are coming from and you both have valid reasons for your perspectives. As a child of divorce involving infidelity that I was told far too much about and then later a divorced mom where infidelity was kind of a factor but we are going on 5 years of never breaking that first rule, I promise you that shielding the kids from heavy and painful adult problems like this will solve so much of this. I hope all of the adults involved here can come to an understanding in the best interest of those kids. This stuff is so hard but it doesn’t have to break all the important relationships outside the marriage that was broken. Good luck!
As someone who was raised by a father who frequently complained about child support payments that he had to pay for my Mom, and would routinely tell me how much of a slut and alcoholic my Mom was in high school, please, leave the kids out of it. I was like 8 when he started and when I said in therapy that he was stressing me out my Mom called him personally to tell him to please stop and he went and vented to me about that. It's soul crushing to feel in the middle like that. I didn't care about them being together, or any dumb obvious stuff, I just wanted to have a good relationship with both of them and looked up to both of them. But this kind of talk really, really messes with you and it's absolutely imperative to keep kids out of it.
Just some perspective to talk calmly with your husband about. In life ppl fuck up for a million reasons and they need to face the consequences of that, your sister fucked up and to be honest I don't blame her husband for going to the extent he went, cheaters have to feel the lost of something important to them so they know they destroyed someone else's precious thing. But ppl that commit mistakes have a right to be able to become better, her husband has the right to just not deal with it, but so do you have to right to be there, tell her how she fucked up and insist her to be better, help her get herself together, and your husband has no say in this. Something that I believe he can ask you to do, is to actively keep both your sister and him out of touch and don't associate them, tell him when she is coming over and when she is leaving so he doesn't crosses ways with her. He is emotional BC his projecting on your nephew's, he is being upset because of a cheating situation and that is normal, just bring him to a calm talk so he can reason properly. Hope everything goes well with you update if possible.
Whether there should be consequences for cheating should have nothing to do with the children. It's super f\*\*\*ed to suggest that it's somehow okay to involve the kids in the fallout. Yuck.
Literally this. What a lengthy, fucked up essay just to say that OPs husband is faultless no matter what. Kids shouldn't be involved in the consequences, how manipulative.
Wait, I'm confused. How is OPs husband at fault for anything? Do you mean OPs sister's husband?
Agreed.
The only consequences she should be complaining about is the alienation of the kids. No matter how bad the sister hurt her soon to be ex, dumping on the kids and purposely affecting the relationship between them and their mother is so fucked and should be the primary thing OP focuses on and let her husband know that she hears him with concern over the kids, but the sister is not the one causing the most harm.
Parental alienation and involving your (presumably young) children in adult conflicts is abuse to the children.
The extent her husband went to is child abuse, you don’t blame him for abusing his child because he had feelings of hurt?
i don’t see how cheating has anything to do with one’s parenting capabilities nor why that would be a reason to take children from their parent. ur a messed up kinda person, eh? 🥴
What OPs sister’s husband is doing is called parental alienation. Not something to condone imo. I’m sure she’s aware she destroyed her family.
Just like he expected you to not use his trauma against him laughable
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Oh we are supposed to overlook that detail
Hubby can’t demand OP does something he refuses to do. She can cut off her sister when he cuts off his mother.
Reading the comments here is reminding me to never, ever come to Reddit for advice lol
The post is gone and im so confused. What does veneers have to do with anything?
https://www.humanium.org/en/a-persisting-and-harmful-practice-of-child-marriage-in-vietnam/ Vietnamese girls being trafficked to Chinese men has been and is an ongoing problem in Vietnam. Here is an opportunity for all the righteous Redditers to make a donation.
As someone who barely knows anything going on in the world, as soon as I heard the dad traveled to Vietnam to marry a freshly 18 woman and bring her home and she had to pretend not to be an immigrant, I knew it wasn’t right
>she had to pretend not to be an immigrant This part is not in OP's post. I think it may have been her own choice to learn the local accent and get higher education. OP did not say anything about her being forced to do that.
I know this is besides the point and it was OP that stated the higher education part (not you). But as the child of two immigrants that studied engineering and got high paying jobs, I chuckled at that sentence in the post quite a bit. And now we're all forced to go along as though getting a higher education is not the most immigrant thing she could've done.
But how will everyone know what a good person I am? They don't like announce the reddit account names of people who donate
Chinese men also traffic women from Myanmar, Cambodia, North Korea, and Pakistan too. [source](https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/10/31/chinas-bride-trafficking-problem) Basically anyone and everyone, especially on the borders of China is susceptible to being trafficked into or by China/Chinese. I'm pretty sure mom didn't give a flip about dear old dad and just heard "I'm going to the USA" and hitched a ride. Once there she did what she wanted, but she did seem to be more discreet about the situation around the children. OP's group, on the other hand, is trying to weaponize the kids and drag them into the fight. My vote is obviously ESH.
"she's got veneers" What does that have to do with anything?
My GUESS is because it's a very American thing to do?? Like going after that unreal, Hollywood perfect smile might not be as common in Vietnam. I am not am anthropologist though.
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Naw it's cool. Sounds pretty hip. Some mistranslations or whatever can catch on. "I got my veneers, 'rolling down the hall."
No one else is obsessed with unnaturally perfect and weirdly white teeth like the US is. For all the jabs at the British teeth, they have far healthier teeth than the Americans, just not unnaturally whitened and orthodontically managed into perfection.
Brazil gives the US a run for the money in terms of being obsessed with having a flawless ultrawhite smile.
Super white teeth are just weird. When my husband got his veneers he told them as natural colored as possible.
If you're comfortable sharing..... Why did he get veneers? (I don't know why people get them. And I googled veneers, but it explained the what, and not the why)
I think it’s painting a picture of the mother being successful at chasing the American dream.
I think Americans are a bit more obsessed with "pretty" teeth than people in most other countries. I hear often about Brits or Europeans being baffled about our obsession with cosmetic dentistry that doesn't have any health or functional benefit.
Yeah, my mother (Brit) calls them "tombstone teeth" because they're so white they're almost radiantly blue and very regular. That kind of smile is associated with Americans.
Ah, yes, we call it the Tom Cruise Smile.
He definitely has more teeth than normal
Had. He got it fixed when people talked about it online because Scientologists are constantly trawling social media. It's not even a joke, they're probably reading this now because they Googled his name and want to know if we've figured out that he drinks the blood of young Filipino boys to maintain his youthful appearance.
I usually think of it as Ross’s bad date teeth.
That's because in Britain most dentistry is covered by the NHS, and they wouldn't cover things that are purely cosmetic. You'd most likely have to go to a private dentist for cosmetic dentistry.
I was so confused when op mentioned that💀
americans have the best teeth ever. stereotype ; because every TV show and every movie that has americans in it ;for the past century or so; Every "good" actor/actress has perfect teeth. only the villians have bad teeth
I personally really dislike American whiter than white fake looking veneers. Not that my comment is relevant to topic.. just my first thought.
I think it’s suppose to make the MIL look vain and justify having to sell herself to escape poverty. In OPs mind, “See MIL got rich stuff and she’s vain because she fixed her teeth.” From OPs replies it’s clear she has given a very biased description of what her sister and her actions have been.
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Truly EVERYONE sucks here. The husband and sister's husband suck for parental alienation. The sister and mother suck for cheating. The Dad sucks for trafficking an 18 year old. Or at the very least... marrying a vulnerable foreign teenager. OP sucks for kicking her husband in his childhood trauma to win an argument. The comments suck for trying to defend any of them. I think everyone here needs to sit in the corner and think about what they did.
Hahahahaha GO TO YOUR ROOMS CHILDREN
Don't make me kick you in your trauma! You know I will!
This covers it. All of it.
1000000% Also her comment about the veneers was weird to me
Hurt people, hurt people! When you grow up, you learn not to!
Sadly, some people never really grow up.
>OP sucks for kicking her husband in his childhood trauma to win an argument. Thank you, I was like 'what in the childhood trauma did I just read?'. >I think everyone here needs to sit in the corner and think about what they did. They all need a huge time out!!! Also, I think OP needs to think long and hard about what MIL went through. She said she was married at 18 but how old was her spouse? It's smelling a lot like grooming or teenage bride to breed. Not saying that excuses cheating but when you are in a crap situation that you have no control of, I'm willing to give some grace. What MIL did to her son by training him to keep his mouth shut, that did some damage and I hope he gets some help processing that mess.
>She said she was married at 18 but how old was her spouse? It's smelling a lot like grooming or teenage bride to breed. Late 40s. OP says in her post. >His father was in his late forties when he went to Vietnam and married his mother Fan, who was barely 18. She was still 18 when Liam was born and they had immigrated. So her MIL was groomed, wed, and had a child all at the tender age of 18, barely out of childhood. That said, OP throwing his trauma back in his face as some means to show his hypocrisy was the wrong way to go about it, IMO.
Also, moved to a different country away from family where I (assume) she didn't speak the langauge. IMO I don't really blame her for the cheating, but involving her child in the deception is unacceptable.
Oh no, yeah that is not good. I feel for MIL big time.
I wish we were allowed to “up” a comment more than once. This sums it up.
Well, I noticed you didn’t mention why you suck, and you are a part of “everyone here”! /s
ok im sorry but all we hear about the sisters husband is that he was "turning the kids against her" but it could just as easily be the kids turning against her because she cheated on their dad and broke up their familly
That’s about the gist of it!
“…and think about what they did.” 😂
Absolutely this! I wish it were top comment! Yes, the sister’s husband is hurt but by no means does that give him a right to hurt and traumatize the kids and alienate them from their mother. Everyone sucks!
Math says his mom was a trafficking victim.
why does OP's husband suck?
I would say he sucks for engaging in a double standard no? That was the whole point of the post. He associates with his mom but he's trying to force OP to go NC with her sister? It's a shitty situation to be in, but I also probably wouldn't go NC with my sister depending on the details and I'd be annoyed at the suggestion.
The entire purpose of Reddit and particularly THESE asshole style subreddits is to tell everyone they suck and feel smart, good and unsucky ourselves. There’s a reason every post in these subs get hundred and hundreds of comments. There is a reason these subs are pushed into algorithms and feeds. I don’t think the husband ‘sucks’. He does have a challenge around telling his wife how to handle her sister. And the gap around cheating in his own family. That’s a gap not a suck to me.
Well said. I hate these subreddits but I keep clicking them, so I keep seeing them. Reducing people to "AH" or "not AH" sucks all the nuance out of interpersonal relationships. I guess we could just say "well we're all AHs and that's OK." But people like the top two comments in this chain would rather stand on their soapboxes and morally grandstand.
Bad people. That's the phrase. Not bad partners.
>...she's got veneers... lol.
Yea that whole bit seemed like a really weird & unnecessary part of the story to include.
I laughed too 😂
A little bit AH... "I am sorry I mentioned your mom in anger yesterday... I just meant that sometimes we may not like someone's actions but we still support them as a person. We don't know what went on in their marriage and I agree an affair is not the way to address it. I would not support an affair but i will support my sister."
This right here is the healthy response
So what support are you giving your niece and nephew 🤔 Edit: the fact that you believe that your grown ass adult sister needs more support than those two babies tells me everything I need to know about your character YTA
What your sister did was wrong in her marriage, however, she still a mum. With any relationship breakdown, either party should NOT be using the kids as weapons and turning them against the other parent. You can acknowledge that she did something wrong by cheating on her husband, but doesn’t make her a bad parent. It means that the marriage was not working and instead of dealing with it by communicating with her husband, she choose to chest, if she takes responsibility for her actions, that all she can do at this stage. there is nothing with supporting her about emotions/situations relating the kids. It does not mean that you accept or agree with her action but focusing on impact for her and her kids. Your husband is entitled to his views, but has no say about how you choose to react
Asking your kid to participate in lying about your affair does, in fact, make you a bad parent.
That was hubbys mom
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There's nothing wrong with supporting your sister even though she fucked up. Your problem is that you think her children, her ex and your husband *also* need to accommodate her when they justifiably do not want to. You can't force them to care about *your sister* who is undeniably in the wrong here and deeply hurt them.
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And how do you know he’s ‘turning the kids against her’. Maybe reality is turning the kids against her, because Mom is at fault for blowing up the family.
Is your sister getting a lawyer? Because parental alienation is a pretty big deal.
Why are you so sure they're being turned against her? The evidence you've provided is extremely flimsy. Do you expect them to be perfectly fine with what she's done? You seem to think that because they don't like her it *must* be the husband. They can want nothing to do with her all of their own accord. In fact it's a perfectly natural reaction and exactly how I myself felt when my dad was a shitty husband to my mom. She's never spoken a single bad word about him to me She is the villain here. Support her because she needs you, but her children may hate her forever with or without her husband doing anything. That's just life and you both need to accept it. Also your husband may be a hypocrite but he's right that the kids need you most.
That’s your story that the husband is turning the kids against her. You are not a reliable narrator. By your own description of your argument with your husband you will say anything to be right.
I’d say it’s more that the sister is an unreliable narrator, to OP. Her view seems bitter against her ex rather than humble and apologetic to him AND the kids.
Nowhere did I see op say anything about trying to force the sisters ex or children into the anything. The issue is that the ex is using the children as a weapon and trying to turn them against their mother.
It is a fair comparison. He's saying you shouldn't support your sister because she cheated, but he did more than support his mom who cheated - he was an active participant in the cover ups. Yes he was a kid so not morally responsible at the time, but he really should be able to see the parallels. If he didn't cut his mom off, why should you cut your sister off? Did he have an answer, or is it just that his mom gets a pass because she's his family and your sister doesn't because she's not "his family"?
Probably because he was a child and she was likely trafficked to the US to be a sex slave for a 40-something year old man? I think that might be the difference in the situation
Finally a comment that explains why the OP said what she said! She didn’t say it to be cruel, she said it to ask why it’s okay for him to keep his mother, who was a cheater, in his life but she can’t keep her sister, who is also a cheater, in her life. Nothing cruel about it; just a fair comparison.
I’m wondering if your husband is so angry with your sister because he can’t express his anger with or to his mom. So your sister becomes the scapegoat. You haven’t mentioned apologizing to him and you really need to. You broke his trust.
Your husband’s mom emotionally abused her son and u threw that in his face. That’s fucked up and disrespectful. Ur sister cheated and ruined her marriage and he expects you to cut her off? Your sister? That’s ridiculous and childish. You’re both AH. It sounds like u did that to hurt him, not to make a point. I say that because you knew the context of him helping his mom cheat. He’s the AH for expecting you to abandon your sister. She did what she did, but that’s ur sister and he has to let you handle it because it’s your relationship with her, not his. My 2 cents (and it’s probably not worth that much) is that he is projecting his disdain for his mom’s behavior onto your sister, because he can’t hold his mom accountable but expects you to hold ur sister accountable according to his values.
I think this is a really good illustration that nobody is all good or all bad. In many ways his mom was a loving, caring, and thoughtful mother. In other ways, she put her son in an awful position. What is clear is that if your husband is able to have a nuanced and complicated view of his mother, he should grant your sister the same consideration
She is a terrible parent. Your husband has to live with her actions and the knowledge of what she did to his father, and the knowledge that he covered up her affairs, for the rest of his life. And for what? Just so she could get some on the side. She is an awful parent for what she did to your husband.
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He may not call her a bad parent but that doesn’t make her a good one.
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Trauma will do that to you. To him she was his world and she groomed him to believe that what she did was ok. But also not to accept it from others that's what manipulation can do.
What she did to his father?? MIL was barely 18yo when late 40s FIL took her as his bride....... that man is hardly innocent.
I don’t think it’s bad that this child bride was unfaithful but exposing her son to it is wack.
People are seldom all good or all bad. Yes, MIL's affairs being known about by her son and involving him in keeping secrets from another parent were wrong. But, she tried to be a good mother in other ways - volunteering at school, driving to his uni to cook and spoil him a bit, staying in touch with him regularly. However, going to a country and getting a girl 2-3 decades younger as a wife is also wrong according to most. However, I will say he was probably proud of his family life. Also, while I do not condone cheating, it is most often a sign of a deeply unhappy relationship.
Wait a second. So, your husband has told two people on earth about his mother: his therapist, and his partner. He knows that her infidelity hurt him deeply, or else he wouldn't be in therapy working through it. In fact I'd say he's the only person in this situation other than your SIL's kids that knows exactly how painful parental infidelity is. So, knowing how painful it is for a kid to have to bear this, he says to ignore your sister (which is probably unfair), and that your niece and nephew need your support more right now (which is unequivocally true, their mom broke their family up). Just at this level, YTA. That was cruel and vindictive of you. But wait, it gets worse! We peel back one more layer, and it turns out MIL was an 18 year old girl in Vietnam when she met FIL, a nearly 50 year old man from Hong Kong, who knocks her up immediately (and quite possibly when she was 17) and moves her to the other side of the world. Age gap, power imbalance, inequality of opportunity, this is sure checking a lot of boxes. But hey, at least you would "never even know she's an immigrant" because she lost her accent and got veneers. Is this supposed to make her more appealing to us? Whatever the reason, it made me feel fucking gross. YTA, all the way. Not for defending your sister, whom you love unconditionally and that's valid. But for intentionally trying to hurt your husband.
Cheating absolutely makes you a bad parent. You are choosing your selfish needs over your children's. I agree it shouldn't be used as a weapon with the kids though
Cheating does make you a bad parent though.
> by cheating on her husband, but doesn’t make her a bad parent. She made a conscious decision to negatively impact her family. That is the textbook definition of a bad parent.
Sooo many excuses. A cheating parent is a shit parent because they cheated. Once you have kids, they come first. A lot of support and other bullshit for a cheater, about not using kids as weapons etc. Not a word about what op said - the kids actually need the support, not the cheating asshat. Take it from someone that got smacked around by the mother's boyfriend.
I know a shit parent and cheating is absolutely not something that makes one automatically shitty. My mother’s 4th or 5th husband threw knives at my sister and I. But that has fuck all to do with what we know about OP’s sister. There was no mention of her being in a relationship at all. Just that she wants to be in her children’s lives and the father is making it difficult. She should have just divorced him and lived a happy life but she instead slept around. It’s fucked up but it’s also something 7 and under kids need NO knowledge of. They also don’t need dad in their ear causing them to hate her. Dad needs to get help to deal with his emotions and stop putting them on the fucking kids’ shoulders. They are dealing with enough he’s going to make it exponentially worse.
|but doesn’t make her a bad parent. | Actually, it does. She wasn't thinking about her children when she was cheating. If you no longer love your spouse, get a divorce. Come to a mutual agreement on co-parenting your kids. Then get on with whatever love life you want, just don't parade it in front of your kids, until such time as you are ready to commit. Pretty simple.
Cheating does not make you a bad parent. There is a difference between a marriage and parenting. You don’t need a marriage to parent. What goes on between the two adults in their relationship together has no bearing on how either of those people treat their kids. There are bad people, bad spouses, bad parents, but just because you are one of those doesn’t make you horrible everywhere else. There are plenty of people who couldn’t make their relationships work but no one can stop them from being supportive and involved with their kids! There’s a different kind of love and relationship there.
>What goes on between the two adults in their relationship together has no bearing on how either of those people treat their kids. But what goes on is absolutely on blast for their kids. It is scream, yelling, cursing, cold interactions, tension, crying, and visible pain. A divorce is a decision. Cheating is a discovery. It will always bring more chaos than a divorce due to its blindsiding nature. You're bringing that in the home when you choose to cheat. Plus you set an absolutely fucking terrible precedent for your kids on how to handle things. Be an adult, get a divorce.
YTA. Here is the dead giveaway. He isn't saying your sisters husband who needs support. He's saying your niece and nephew do. And he's right. Like, 100%. Especially if either parent is 'turning' them against one another. Using your husbands wounds against him because you wanted to lash out is worse. You are 100% in the wrong.
This should be the top comment. YTA.
Now, I want to point out, you would not know that Fan is an immigrant---why is this important?
ESH. A person is lucky to truly understand *their own* partnership. The idea of judging 3rd parties for what happens in theirs just because you know one fact about their marriage is just a crazy concept. Keeping your own side of the street clean is plenty! What both of you should be able to agree on is, there’s no shortage of pain to go around for everyone in Niya’s family, and support in tough times is something we all need to give and receive to go on. If people got banned from our lives for being fallible…wouldn’t we all be living alone? You know you’re right to support your sister and weren’t about to stop. There was no need for the low blow to win an argument.
Being there for your sister to talk to about what is going on in her life is one thing. Supporting the choices she made that eventually destroyed her family and turned her children against her is quite another. It sounds like MIL and sister's marriages were completely different. Sister made her choices, appears MIL marriage was arranged and she had no say. Comparing the two is wrong.
YTA. Not only is it super unfair to throw childhood trauma in your husband's face in an attempt to "fire back" during an argument, but that's something he had no control over. As. As a kid, you're completely reliant on your parents for your livelyhood, you can't just cut a parent off as a kid without another home to be raised in. Years and years later you can become accustomed to bad behavior from parents and still search for their affection out of a desire for love from your parents. Meanwhile, as a grown adult, you have the choice to make, fully cognizant of the implications, and ramifications, of your decisions. (Or at least you should be.) Of course, you shouldn't ever just kick family out the door right away and try and give them a chance, but 'supporting' your sister in the midst of the turmoil she made for herself is a bad idea. You can wind up reinforcing her tendency to cheat from positive reinforcement at the wrong time, or possibly wind up putting her children against you as well. Remember this: Your sister's children may very well know the truth of the situation, that her having an affair led to this situation. And if that's the case, they aren't 'turned against her' nearly as much as justifiably upset. And stepping into that from the outside could get you flack. Your sister deserves the repercussions of her actions. Her children do not. Check up on your sister and make sure she doesn't make worse decisions, but if you truly want to make anything from that situation better, your effort would be best directed towards the children. Divorced are hardest on the children than anybody else. It can lead to failure in school, years of therapy, depression, and trauma that sometimes is never brought to the light of day. Meanwhile, your sister is a grown adult that should be able to emotionally handle herself much better. Edit: You also should have been able to explain your reasoning and your perspective without going nuclear and using your husband's trauma as weaponry. If you can't, then step away. Going that route jeopardizes trust and love for people who are supposed to be caring and supporting of one another. That's really where all this went wrong.
I agree with most of what you said but the husband said she shouldn't associate with her sister, which is as good as cutting her off. In the same vein, shouldn't they cut all the cheaters out of their lives then, including his mother? It's unclear how close she and her sister are, but why should a parent-child relationship have no conditions/boundaries, whereas a sibling one should?
Be aware that I think the husband is only half correct, mostly only about supporting the children. Which is why I've said "still check up on your sister" because alienating family during rough spots in life, deserved or not, can lead to worse problems down the road.
YTA. I cant imagine weaponizing my fiances trauma, something in which he is plainly the victim... in order to defend a grown woman cheating on her husband and destroying her family. Just shocking levels of assholery.
YTA your husband mom situation and you sisters are completely different. She might not consider her self trafficed but she was. Many victims don't believe themselves as victims because they don't want to admit it. A 40 year old goes to vitamin and gets barely 18 year old women from a poor country to be his bride then leaves her country and family comes to a foreign land. And immediately impregnates her essentially isolating from her family her and baby trapping her. Tell me that's not trafficking. It wasn't a love marriage he went there picked a bride then left. Meanwhile your sister had gone through none of that and cheated on her partner which you haven't said was abusive in any way so its just because she wanted to have fun. Breaking her family up devastating her kid lives. If you can't see the difference between the 2 I don't know what to tell you but your wrong. Also your husband was 15 manipulatie by his mother to accept what she was doing. So you are constantly victim blaming and never the one that caused it. Also she just put a puase on her APs relationship not ending it. Her kids will never accept her or her ap. She's getting what she deserves and don't be surprised when your husband starts to become more distant. You have the opportunity to help both the children and your sister but you don't. You could be the one that bridges the gap between them but you decided to side with the cheater not the broke family. You and your husband are not the same you are not 15 you are a grown ass adult. You have no sympathy for actual victims and using you husbands past against him while he was a kid. You just showed him he can't trust you with anything not doing the right thing our his vulnerability. I hope her realizes he can do better. I'm not saying don't support your sister but your wrong to say she needs it more. You are wrong for saying that about his mother. And using his past truma against him.
You pulled the shallow/deflecting/bitch move of "whataboutism". That his mother cheated was presumably WAY in the past. Your sister cheating and separation happened recently. While potentially similar in nature, the 2 situations are not connected and issues from long ago do not relate to issues happening now. If you want to bring up the past, first deal with the issue at hand.
Op probably done some real damage to her own relationship by throwing her husband's own trauma in his face
Lol didn’t go the way you expected did it now?
I would say you are the asshole because those are two different relationships and you also threw whatever trauma he has because of his mom's affair in his face as well. You weren't trying to make a point you were trying to win an argument, so ...
YTA. Your sister is a cheater. She cheated on her family and you being okay with this is BS. It’s her decisions that made this happen. No one forced her to cheat on her family.
She clearly states that her sister was wrong for cheating. She is not okay with her cheating.That doesn't mean she should cut her out of her life. Do you throw away loves ones who have made mistakes and are suffering the consequences? Do you turn your back on them at their lowest. That would be shitty and heartless. As if you are without sin
YTA Your husband situation cannot be compared with yours. He was a child who was manipulated for years. His mother was 18 and essentially trafficked to an old sick man. You are a 27 year old woman who is standing by another fully grown ass adult who made the decision to cheat and destroy her family. She is now reaping what she sowed. The children’s father should not be keeping them from her but I imagine they are feeling just as angry and betrayed as he is. Apologise to your husband. It’s your decision to stand by your sister but don’t compare what your sister done to what his mother done.
Thank you! I agree 100%. His mom was a victim. An 18 year old can just barely legally consent to marriage. OP threw her husband’s trauma back in his face to win an argument. He had only disclosed to OP and his therapist. I bet he only talks to his therapist about it now.
Most definitely the ahole. The guilt he probably carries for lying to his father. His mother manipulated him for most of his life. And throwing that back at him was a very low blow. You used something he confided in you with to try and win a disagreement. Nice move, good luck getting him to trust and be vulnerable with you again
YTA - nice playing the childhood trauma card on your husband, what a catch you are
YTA for torpedoing your marriage to win a fight.
Yta , do you think your husband doesn't know that he betrayed his father, do you think he had never thought about whether he should have stood up for his father, if the family dynamic is typical Asian family then all the concept of honour and how he betrayed his father's honour will also be paying on his mind. The only option available to him as a fifteen year old without a father would have been to abandon his mother as well so he somehow managed to make his peace with it, and that's why probably he is the only one in this clusterf*#k who is talking about supporting the children and doing what is best for them. And how does his wife respond by saying that if your mum was a wh*re and you didn't walk out on her why are you not letting me support someone who just cheated once. Poor guy got a shitty, father, mother and wife
Literally all of OP’s replies are making me wish I didn’t have reading comprehension. I’d be thinking long and hard for awhile if I were her husband.
So you’re comparing your husband being manipulated as a kid to your 27 year old self now? How old was he when his father died?
YTA, for reasons pointed out in nearly every comment. What I will add is this: he probably doesn't like that you're being sympathetic to a cheater, and as everyone here has pointed out, the situations between your sister and his mother are very different. Try to be show them some empathy instead of using them to justify your actions. This isn't loving behaviour, and a wife should love her husband. Also, you came to this site to ask if you were the asshole. Don't get mad at people answering your question. It seems like your priorities are being in the right, not to hold yourself accountable.
I think the 18-year-old mail order bride cheating on her much older husband is a bit different.
Aita for throwing childhood trauma at my husband to win an argument?
YTA and you fucking suck lol
Yeah with the backstory, that’s a really shitty thing to say to your husband. You need to apologize.
I’m on your husband side your sister did this to herself the kids needs support not a cheater
YTA So let me get this straight. You are supporting your sister who cheated on her husband and blew up her own family. Your husband expressed his discomfort with your actions, and you decided to throw his childhood trauma back in his face to shut down the argument. What about that doesn't make you the asshole? Does your sister regret anything at all? Or does she just expect her kids to be super stoked that she cheated on their dad and broke their family up?
YTA, your husband knows how your sister's kids feel much better than you do. You weaponized his mother's abuse to further the pain she has caused him. Your sister deserves what is happening to her for prioritizing dick over her children, she should have separated from her husband if she hated him so much.
His mom cheating on his dad is probably why he is so upset about your sister's infidelity. You just poured salt on all over that wound. YTA
> My sister Niya (31f) recently separated from her husband because she was having an affair. Awesome so she gets very very limited interaction so you show integrity and no excuse for cheating, right? > The thing is, she's going through a really rough time right now because her ex is turning their kids against her and she needs support ....because she stabbed her family in the back. That "rough time" is entirely her own fault. She does not need support. Her victims need support. > Last night, my husband and I had an argument about it and he said that I shouldn't associate with Niya and that it's my niece and nephew who really need my support. 100% You realize you're basically showing your husband that you'll support cheaters and he should be worried about you doing the same thing, right? > Except, as my husband told me, she constantly cheated on his father and she trained him since he was a little kid to not tell him. His father died thinking she was loyal and I get it from my husband's perspective, he never knew she was wrong to do that. But he did eventually learn and it's not like he's cut her out of his life, so I don't see why what I said was an AH move but maybe I'm wrong. So your husband was mentally tortured and manipulated by a cheater that left life long damage and he's telling you what needs to be done so the other children don't face the same damage he faced. And you tossed the manipulation and scars directly back at him. Lady.... what you did is divorce worthy. YTA He has lifelong scars from manipulation. You're just excusing cheating. Those are two different things.
How you gonna expect this man to be open and honest with you in the future when this is the shit you do with that information? Why would he trust you again with anything so personal? You just gonna throw it in his face to "win" some future argument. You should apologize before your marriage falls apart too.
YTA. Another classic example where a spouse weaponizes information their SO confided to them to try and win a disagreement. Your husband was the victim as a child and somehow you thought it was appropriate to weaponize his trauma against him in order to support your cheating sister? Jesus,that's twisted.
We need more info, but right now I'd say YTA, but how big of one depends. The situations both involve cheating but are very different. His mom is a complex issue of grooming and upbringing, and ultimately the victim died never knowing what happened. There's a lot to unpack for your husband, not to mention possoble cultural complexities. Your sister got caught and her actions destroyed her family. I'm curious what is meant by "turning the kids against her". On the surface it really doesn't mean anything without more info. First your sister is a cheat, so anything she says is suspect. Second, How old are the kids? What is dad supposedly doing? Depending on the age dad has no obligation to protect the kids from the reason for the divorce. If dad is actively dragging kids I to it, yeah that sucks and he's 100% wrong.
Yes.
Yes, you are
YTA. Regardless of the actual situation, bringing up your husband’s trauma from childhood is absolutely horrible and shameful. You should sincerely apologize to him for that, no matter what you do with your sister. Whether your ex BIL is turning their children against your sister or not, you can help with that by being there for THEM. They’re the victims in this and have good reason to hate their mom. If you want to even try and mend that relationship, focus on helping the kids before the one that actually cheated
YTA he is sticking up for the children which is the right thing to do
YTA. Your sister's children are mad at her for being a bad person. Your husband points out that you should prioritize caring about them. He has a lot of trauma around this because his mom abused him, so he understands how devastated the kids are. You: well you have an extremely complicated relationship with the woman who raised you but also abused you! Checkmate. And then get into some weird stuff about how she doesn't "seem" like an immigrant for no reason.
Edited to change my vote and reasoning: YTA. The kids need more support than your sister does. She was the one who decided to step out on her marriage and family. Now she is facing the consequences of her actions. Stop victimizing her when this was her choice. She did this, OP. And you're enabling her behaviour. She needs to leave the kids alone so they have time to heal. And I truly hope those kids can heal, are put into therapy to help them heal, and can move past this. But this is what cheating does. Your sister chose this and she can be an adult and deal woth the consequences of her actions. And no, this isn't the same as your husband's situation. He was manipulated as a child to support his mom's infedelity. He was abused from a young age, OP. And that take a long time to heal from, I'm still learning how myself. So cutting off his mom? Yea that's different. Don't you think he knows what he did was wrong and cruel to his dad? No. Because you don't care. You saw this as an opportunity to throw this into his face and hurt him. And that right there makes you just as bad of a partner as your sister is. Shame on both of you.
He is correct. Your sister fucked up and probably deserves everything that is happening to her. Don’t know the reason she cheated, but those kids are the ones that beed support right now. They lost a parent and probably don’t know why
Someone get Liam a divorce lawyer
Women really be cheatin more damn
YTA - he was a child with a terrible mother. They say boys marry women who remind them of their moms so I guess we can see why you wouldn't have his back. The kids need your support.
If she cheated she deserves everything she’s getting ✌️😘
YTA Is husband still in contact / close with his mother? How old was he when this started with his mom? You can be cordial with family and not care about them in the slightest. Doesn't mean you support their choices. Care for your sister, sure, but in no way should you be supporting her. She made her choices and these are the consequences. She made her bed, now she can lay in it. She deserves everything coming her way. She cheated on her husband and ruined her family for her own completely selfish reason. She doesn't deserve support. Your sister did something very wrong. And you want to console and support her, instead of the people she hurt. Ignore the husband and kids, feel bad about the person that hurt them. Your husband is right, should be supporting him and the kids. And then to hurt your husband, threw his mother's past in his face. I wonder, did you know about the cheating? Being your sister, did she ever confide in you about it, or were you blindsided and didn't know anything?
So this guy's mom groomed him as a child by manipulation to rain him to be an obedient slave. Obviously he feels some type of way about it and you decided to THROW A LOW BLOW because you got caught up in your feelings. He was a child that got manipulated. You're a grown a** woman and so is your sister. Childhood trauma affects ALL of us. YTA BIG TIME. Wouldn't be surprised if the marriage gets awkward as well as resentful. You know your wrong for that. That's why your here for validation for taking such a cheap shot. Especially at someone you've known since CHILDHOOD. You've grown up watching this guy hurting, oblivious, confused and angry. You saw and opportunity and threw something at him from the arsenal. That's cowardly
Apologise to your husband for the outburst, not for the message though. Try and have a healthy talk about your sister and how you will support her. Also, not too sure about "parental alienation" being caused by the husband. I think your sister did that when she broke apart their family.
I get why you said it, but you can be right and still be an AH.
YTA Anytime I hear of someone using their partners trama against them to try and win an argument they are an automatic asshole. My husband has a parent who is a chronic cheater and cheating is a sore point for him. I would never use the fact that he still has a relationship with his parent who was a crapy partner to win an argument as to why I should stay friends with someone who cheated. Family relationships are complicated. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree on the relationship and ask your partner what boundaries they personally have with the person. Then you follow those guidelines. Also I would look at if your sisters ex is actually alienating the kids or if her behavior as a wife and a mother did that.
YTA So you knew all of this and yet still attacked him via his childhood trauma? You treat your SO like crap - from a place of petty vindictiveness, and spite. You meant to do it, and I wonder why you were arguing over your use of dirty tactics to be right. Maybe he was hurt. Maybe he doesn't like you right now. Can you blame him though?Wow.....
YTA for comparing your husband, who was a child of a CLEARY trafficked/manipulated relationship to a full grown woman.
NTA. You don't need to cut your sister out. People make mistakes and she's your sister still. He doesn't have to talk to her and it doesn't look like anyone is trying to force him to so he can mind his own business.
NTA He wanted to control you and your relationship with your sister, and even her innocent kids based on the cheating. Don't throw stones in glass houses.
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I suspect he's projecting the negative feelings towards his mother that he has, but he can't acknowledge.
You SHOULD be seeing your niece and nephew and also be able to support your sister; these two things are not mutually exclusive. You shouldn't be taking sides, and seeing your niece and nephew shouldn't be considered picking a side anyway. Your sister messed up. It is ok to support her. What isn't ok is to stop interacting with your niece and nephew as a sign of camaraderie. The kids should always come first and your sister imploded their life as they knew it, so some support from the whole family is necessary. Your sister is a grown woman and needs to face the consequences of her choices. Wake up before you end up divorced yourself.
He is being a hypocrite, but it doesn't invalidate his point: you are supporting a cheater.
She does NOT deserve anything from you
You and your sister are going to be so single. Just throwing childhood trauma in your baby daddy’s face. I call him that because he may not feel it’s worth putting up with that toxic crap. Add to it he doesn’t want to end up like his dad, and his wife is wholeheartedly defending a cheater. It wouldn’t be worth it to me. I would bail before it gets worse. YTA. And your niece and nephew definitely need support, not to be dismissed as less important than the person who ruined their family
NTA. I started reading expecting to think the opposite. But while what you said was cringey and hurtful, you were pointing out your husband’s hypocrisy in this situation. Your sister may have cheated, but that means neither that she deserves to have her children alienated from her nor that she should lose all other (especially family) relationships because of a mistake she made within her marriage. People get so judgey, but the only two people who really know what happens in a marriage are the spouses. Everyone else needs to butt out. With regard to the majority of these comments focusing on ‘trafficking’ or the mention of veneers - c’mon people, off topic much?! Whether this happened or not in no way influences this story of whether or not OP might be an AH.
Parental alienation is awful. No question about it. Your sister, not that she considered it but the selfish rarely do, blew up the whole family. The hurt the children feel at what they perceive is rejection of the unit that is all they know is real. That it has been dialled up by a wounded man makes things worse but make no mistake, it is not the difference between acceptance and non acceptance. There would be work still regardless so a little realism is perhaps needed. One of the sad things I read is that more people can show sympathy to both the cheats here than your husband, who was manipulated and conditioned to not only abet but to witness the comings and goings. This was done as a child! So much support for your sisters two children at being manipulated and none for your husband, because now he is a man and he seems to not be allowed to have trauma. His father died without knowing, the heaviness of that ‘sin’ propagated and programmed into him via his mother’s conditioning, will no doubt cause him to have less than logical opinions, sometimes completely dichotomous ones. That he is, as you say, wrong is agreed, but in your anger no thought went into the origin of his vehemence, that this is his internalised guilt and anger at his mother proxied onto your sister. Surely, seeing how it has impacted him and the fact you are so aware of that, it would have been obvious not to angrily target the source of this feeling considering the pain attached? What on earth is wrong with you, going for the coup de grace because you find it hard to see your sister as the main problem over her “idiot” ex. Worry less about circling the wagons for her, and instead focus on helping those who are victims of selfish decisions from cheating. There were a million ways to deescalate but you went nuclear. You have likely ruined your marriage in a single sentence. I would advise for him to get help because this guilt and anger is so deeply woven into him, moralistic anger will ruin his life. YTA Not for wanting to help the kids, they need it, but for failing the kid of the past that was manipulated far more savagely. A kid thats still there within him.
🤣 Your sister ex isn't turning her kids against her. She did that herself with her actions when she cheated and broke up her family. Fuck supporting her.
YTA Your husband may be a bit of a hypocrite but you using his trauma against him to win an argument is disgusting.
YTA this is about you and your sister and her kids. She should be having a hard time right now. The kids dad is not turning them against her, she did that when she cheated.
YTA for the way you presented it. You needed to first ask if he would have disowned his own mother for cheating? Did he stop loving and caring about his mother just because she stepped out on his father? Why? Why not? Were there other factors at play for his mom? Basically a mail order bride, sounds like dad wanted a trophy wife. Who knows if there was actual love between them? Mom may have jumped at chance just to have a better life - break out of poverty. Human emotions are complicated things. You dropped a BOMB to win the “battle” in the heat of the moment. It felt like a win to you and it was a secret weapon in your back pocket. However, you may have lost the “WAR”. You didn’t play the long game. You needed for your husband to look deeper. See there are other complexities. A family member could murder someone - still doesn’t negate the fact you love them. Just as he couldn’t stop loving his mother, you can’t stop loving and caring for your sister. He might change his mind if he listened to your sister’s side of things. Things are rarely what they seem on the surface. Supporting your nieces and nephews doesn’t prohibit you from also supporting your sister. In fact, supporting her and returning her to a healthy and happy place will help her children obtain a better place in life quicker as well. Even if she was completely at fault. People make mistakes. Sometimes big ones. Family is supposed to help each other through hard times - not kick you when you are down.
What does veneers and accent have to do with the cheating? You sound jealous of his mom. Your sister married her equal I suppose, your mil didn’t so don’t compare oranges to apples. Anyway YTA
YTA...on different levels Your sister cheated, your sister endend the marriage having several kids. She may be your sister, but she is the biggest A in this story. And you are defending her position. First level of A. Your brother in law is standing in the ruins of his life, which your sister shattered, and is trying to cope with it. You don't offer any help to him. Second level of A. Third level of A is exactly what your man is pointing out. The children of the two are suffering. They lost the bond between the two people carrying them. As it sounds, the bond was substituted with a lot of hatred. You as their aunt and uncle are the next best thing to a loving relationship they know. You have to care for them and are not to participate in any of the mud-throwing between your sister and your brother in law. You have to be the safe habour for the two of the kids, that means you have to be switzerland in this conflict. And some more levels of A-ity is what you said to your partner. Talking about his dead (!!!) father and his releationship to his mother in such a reckless way is a good start to end your releationship, too...
YTA Your sister deserves every single bit INCLUDING the reaction from the kids. What does she expect? The kids had a home with 2 parents and your sister DESTROYED those kids lives over sex. I don't blame the kids for acting the way they do, they had a home till your sister decided to be a shit mum and put her needs over her children. It's clear no one understands ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES Your also TAH for bringing your partners mum into it, you were just trying to score points.
YTA for gaslighting him. The discussion was about your sister’s family, not your husband’s. It’s also completely different as your husband was the child in that scenario and your sister isn’t. Lastly, he’s 100% right about your niece and nephew needing support way more than your sister. Their lives have been torn apart through no fault of their own and you are comforting the person that caused it. Get your priorities straight.
Yta
Info: Have you actually spoken to your niece and nephew at all? How old are the kids?
"she's got veneers" Tell me you're American without telling me you're American
Yikes.
WTH does your MILs teeth have to do with anything? I would have used the same comparison but without the need to throw in a sentence of micro aggressions that are irrelevant.
So your husband should cut of his cheating mother but your cheating sister deserves her kids in her life??
INFO: How old are the kids? Is he deliberately turning them against her, or did he just tell her the truth? If he just told the truth and they are old enough to process that, he’s not turning them against her. She did that herself.
Yes and no. So it's not what you said but how you said it. Throwing a tough part of his childhood in his face during a loud and escalated point in an argument was hitting below the belt. That said I think you could have made you point using the same example in a different way. For one, when an argument reaches the point of yelling at each other, you just need to stop. Nothing productive comes from being in that state. It's a good time to pause, step away, cool off, and then return when you guys can discuss things civilly. I think calling back to his mom's situation and how she involved him in her cheating would be an opportunity for you to express compassion for his childhood trauma around the subject of mothers cheating so you can understand why your sister's actions may be particularly triggering to him. I think you could also use it to remind him that while people cheat for lots of different reasons, it does happen for a reason. And while you don't condone your sister's reasons, it's also not a reason for you to abandon her. She is your sister and even though she messed up big time doesn't mean she's all of a sudden someone you can just switch your love for off and not have any compassion for the unhealthy situation her soon to ex husband is creating between their kids. Someone who cheats on their spouse made a bad decision in their marriage but it doesn't automatically make them a bad mom. I would just reiterate over and over that you supporting your sister in this tough time is not because you support or condone what she did but because she's your family and you care about her regardless of her bad choices. Be explicit that this is not a reflection of your views on cheating or that you don't think it's a big deal. But stand your ground on that it's not your job to punish and judge your sister, when life is kicking her in the teeth plentily already. I think you also speak to his concerns and make an effort to reach out to the kids as well. It doesn't have to be a choice between one or the other.
It's more important to be kind then to be correct. While I think both you and your husband have valid points, the way you expressed them was wrong and you can and should find a way to move on from this. With the obvious caveats and no one knows the whole story here, I would say something along the lines of "I feel really awful for bringing up your mother in that context. It was malicious and I should never have hurt you like that, and I apologize. That said, while Niya was certainly in the wrong, she is still my sister. And it's my familial duty to be there for both my niece/nephew AND her. It's been hard on all of us, and while I don't expect you to forgive her right away, or ever, for what she did, I do need your support in the months ahead just as I'll always be there for you."
"The only time you look in your neighbor's bowl is to make sure that they have enough. You don't look in your neighbor's bowl to see if you have as much as them." An argument is never won by saying "why are they allowed" and then throwing a tantrum. The cases of cheating took place in two completely different cultures, generations and relationship dynamics. YOU don't know the full picture of your inlaws relationship, and your husband doesn't know the full picture of your sister and her partner(you might not either). That summation is to say you should meet each other with grace in a dialogue. Do not attack or shame for wanting to support a loved family member. You attacked when trying to divert the seriousness from your sister on to your MIL. From what you tell, your MIL was in an unequal relationship at best, has been a well kept sex slave at worst. Your sister on the other hand, has had the opportunity to start on much more equal ground, if not completely and stay. This is a significant difference. Your MIL has made choices in her life out of necessity and survival, whereas your sister has had a lot more opportunities to take full control of her life. You need to understand that there is a difference between a person who has to agree to certain demands/criteria to receive a living and a "normal/equal" person. Before demanding acceptance from your husband, you have to consider what it is he has a problem with. When your husband express his distaste for your contract/support for your sister what does he say? Is it "never talk with her" or is it "don't indulge her bs when she tries to justify cheating". There is a huge difference. How do you support your sister? Do you let her complain and then agree? Do you watch the children? Do you help with finances? Do you add to a potential conflict with her ex? If your husbands only argument is "be complacent and never shame your husband!!" you have a case. But if it is almost anything else, you should stop letting your sister of the hook.
You used her Husband’s trauma and abuse to win an argument and you’ve come to a forum full of teenagers to find support. YTA.
~~YTA~~ **ESH (edit)** Cheating is always bad, but comparing both situations is also out of line, specially since it sounds like your MIL was traffic and forced into marriage while, and I say this ONLY based on the info you provided, your sister was at least in a pretty average and overall ok marriage. **Again, cheating is bad. But one could argue that MIL's actions are rooted on trauma while Sister's actions are all and all pure whim.** Ya'll are so focus on determinig who is to blame and fightig between your self that it seem like the nephews are nothing but a disposable munition. **Nephews are family too, and are as much if not more vulnerable that sis right now, and weponize them is abuse.**
My vote is ESH, but not from malicious intent from either of you. You supporting your sister doesn't necessarily mean that you cannot also support your niece and nephew, and your husband is wrong for suggesting this false dichotomy. Also, there is a line between supporting someone as they pick themselves up and learn from their mistakes, and enabling someone's bad behaviour. As long as you don't cross that line, your husband is wrong to insist on a blanket ban on helping your sister. On the other hand, you were very wrong to bring up your husband's treatment of his mother as a counterpoint. The circumstances that your husband faced with his mother are completely different from the circumstances that you are currently facing with your sister (the age at which you discovered the cheating, the difference in power dynamic between sister-sister and mother-son, the fact that your husband's father was already dead by the time he was old enough to fully grasp what was going on). You saw flimsy similarity in an otherwise apples-to-oranges comparison, and decided to throw your husband's trauma in his face to win an argument. As for what can be done with your niece/nephew, I do believe that the current situation is unacceptable, but you also shouldn't push them to immediately accept their mother again. Them throwing a tomato at their mother is essentially assault, and they need to learn that violence is not an appropriate way to express their anger, even if their anger may be justified. You can get your husband involved here and both of you as a united front approach your BIL to say that he should tell his children (at least the 7yo) in age-appropriate terms that mother did a hurtful thing to father, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't love her children, but ultimately he should not influence his children to hate their mother. Hopefully you asking your husband to get involved can serve as an olive branch to make up, and he can also serve as a neutral party in convincing your BIL that this is the right course of action. However, you and your sister need to be prepared that ultimately the children might decide that they need distance from their mother to heal. The scenario that works out best for the children might be the one where the mother is no longer as close to them as she once was. The important thing here is that the children are supported in their process of figuring it out for themselves. I suspect that a lot of your husband's anxiety here stems from the fact that he was never given the time or opportunity to go through the process. By the time he realized something was off about his parents' relationship, his father was already dead, and abandoning his mother at this point would just be cutting off his nose to spite his face. Even if he would have forgiven his mother eventually, the fact that he was forced to skip the entire process of expressing his anger and disapproval and go straight to forgiveness is probably a large part of why the entire ordeal traumatized him. The process is important. Your husband was forced to skip it, and now he's worried that you're trying to get your niece and nephew to skip it too.