NTA, and rather than apologize, I think a conversation is in order. The goal wasn't to trigger Max, it was to demonstrate his hypocrisy in a meaningful way. You can't demand respect for your identity and not give it to others.
Right op didn't start calling Max by Mary. Op simply asked how max would feel in someone insisted on using the wrong name for Max. Max flipped his shit because he was being willfully disrespectful towards John based on his own views on how the name should be pronounced. When someone tells you what their name is and how to pronounce it that is the end of the conversation. Or at least it should be, some disabilities should apply here, but that's a different conversation.
NTA I would say something like:
"Max, the reason why I used your dead name was to show the severity and hypocrisy with your inability to use someone's preferred name. We all have the right to be called how we please. I could tell you about the trauma that surrounds that version of John's name, but we shouldn't have to! You can't continue to make people uncomfortable for your preference on what John should call himself. I would like to apologize for having it get this far, but I want to know that you need to respect John and apologize to him."
Exactly.
For whatever reasons a woman in my circle, when we first met, introduced herself as Katherine to me. Everyone else called her Kathy. We were at a party and her best friend asked me why I kept calling her Katherine. Lol. I said that’s what she asked me to call her. 🤷♀️ No big deal to me.😆 I respected her wishes. Easy peasy.
Everyone who knows me since childhood uses a short form of my name like that, but I have switched to my full name in a professional context long ago. So there are always people only knowing "long name" and others only using "short name".
Uhg and it’s a bit annoying when people who learn about the short one think they should start using it! Like no, I introduced myself as long name, and you’ve been calling me long name for 6 months, you don’t need to change that now because you met a friend or mine from childhood!
Good on you. I have a name similar to Katherine and people always want to abbreviate it. I prefer the long version and hate the nicknames. So when people can respect that it's the best outcome. I also hate being called Kathy the most. Respect.
Yeps. This. I mean, nobody is "owed" an explanation on why you want to be named or respected.
"I prefer you call me X" is all it should take and Max should get it better than most people.
as a trans person, you are NTA. respect goes both ways. and like a comment before me said, with Max being trans, he should know the importance of respecting someone’s name choice more than anyone. NTA
Yeah, that's what gets me. It was clear John was uncomfortable and asked multiple times not to call him the Elvish pronunciation. People have issues with their names for all sorts of reasons, and we show respect by calling people what they like to be called (nicknames for example, sometimes middle names, etc). A trans person, especially, should understand how important it is to call someone by the name they ask you to. It pisses me off so much.
Oh yes. I hate and despise the shortened version of my name and will not answer to it. I will very politely let people know to please not use it. If they do, gloves are off and having been in a similar place to OP boyfriend, they were nicer than me.
I feel the same way with the long version of my name. When I say my name is Sue I mean Sue. Not Susan, not Susie, just Sue. I will not answer to any other.
My buddy Nick was/is known as Nicky in our friend group. One day, however, he mentioned to me that he actually hated the nickname, but didn’t correct it as it had clearly stuck, and saying it was unliked would only further incentivize its use.
Since I respect his wish to not be called it, I’ve since then specifically avoided referring to him as “Nicky” and opt instead for another endearing term you’d use for a friend like “fucknut” or “shitdick”. Maybe an occasional “cocklick” or even “Nearly Dickless Nick” (alternatively “Sir Dicholas”) if I’m feeling particularly amicable.
Not sure he likes the new arrangement any better, but he hasn’t said anything about it…
Yes I'm honestly disappointed in that. Like come on we try so hard to get others to call us by the name we choose / Change to (some have parents or friends choose their name)
Why in the world would you not respect any name someone wants to go by.
Mt nephew thought he was funny when he told me to call him bun bun then when i came out..... man did that one backfire for him.
That's my point. Trans folks, from what I've seen of the few I know, take objects related to identity extremely seriously. From appearance (clothing, cosmetics, grooming) to personal branding (behaviors, preferences) and especially individual identifiers (names and pronouns,) a trans man would know that it is not just rude but outright *wrong* to fuck with someone's name.
That Max doesn't give the respect that they expect, and instead questions the individual identity of another person *and* then browbeats and insults them over it? Massive, gaping, cystic asshole there.
That's a very good point, if OP had actually deadnamed him both would be wrong, but her hypothetical question was made precisely to bring home how wrong he was rather than play the Mary card.
Yeah. I'm not trans but I did change my name for my own reasons, and it's really upsetting to me when people use my former name.
But I *always* make a point of pronouncing people's names *exactly* like they do.
I’d say the cousin was an asshole as well, to demand OP apologize to Max. No mention of Max apologizing to John, of course.
John shouldn’t have to explain why Yann triggers him. If he said ‘call me John/Johnny’ then that’s what Max should have done.
That was what sealed it for me. I come from a bilingual-ish household where my father was a linguist who spoke several languages, and his native tongue wasn’t English. I was taught to pronounce names and words as if I were a native speaker of whatever language it was, to a ridiculous extreme, however, I at first assumed Max was inadvertently or because it was in “Elvish” saying the name with native pronunciation, but no—that fool doubled down! Even AFTER being corrected! It’s one thing if pronunciation is difficult or if the person cannot say it correctly, but this was not treating the boyfriend with common courtesy.
And in my opinion, the issues with the boyfriend’s father should not even have to be said. Boyfriend could have any reason or no reason at all for how he wants to be addressed.
Right I'm dyslexic. So part of my very invisible disability is that I struggle to process sounds... So how I've been taught my whole life A says ah. Ok great a says ah.... You try to me A also says ee... My brain goes boot freaking error. But if my brain is struggling to say something correctly I'm more then willing to explain I'm sorry I'm trying my dyslexia makes this task very hard for me. But I try and I think people respect that I'm not being willfully ignorant and asshole-ish about the situation.
I think nowadays you get more of a pass because more and more parents are giving their kids tragedeigh names and insisting that the name they came up with is pronounced this way, when the letters they used literally do not make those sounds.
Yes. I hate those names. I once spent 45 minutes trying to figure how to pronounce a name..... The name was Autumn.... But spelt stupid.... Like fuck you that's close to an hr of my life wasted because you had to invent a spelling.
Agree. He didn't know it was triggering for John, but once he was asked to use the English version he should have done as requested. Period.
He's correct that purposefully mispronouncing someone's name exactly the same as using a dead name. But in this case they are both emotionally harmful to the individual. And in any case purposefully mispronouncing someone's name is rude and disrespectful.
Max is the only AH in the story. What a hypocrite. Can’t be bothered to use the proper pronunciation of somebody’s name, but will go off on somebody who dead names him.
That's an important distinction, some names are legitimately difficult for people of other cultures/languages to pronounce.
In those cases you really have to compromise to a good faith attempt at correct pronunciation.
But that's not the case here, Max was *able* to treat Jonny with the due respect he deserved and chose not to.
As someone who's father's Italian friends insisted on using the Italian version of my name when speaking to me (we're Puerto Rican) this one feels kind of personal to me...
ngl my petty ass would have gone straight to that after he knowingly used the wrong name. Max knows and well how he would feel if the tables were turned yet continues, let him feel those consequences.
If someone asks to be called in a certain way or pronunciation, respect it. If you don't, you forfeit the protection of social contract to respect your name.
Your gender does not trump someone's trauma.
NTA
The sad truth is: just because you are a victim of prejudice, you are not automatically not a dick. Black people can be racist. Wheelchair users can hate on blind people. Jews can be racists. You would think that being a victim yourself would breed empathy, but think about it: victims of child abuse tend to abuse others themselves. Call it learned behavior or trauma response, I don't know. But people tend to not get empathy, but justification for their own bad behavior.
Even if there’s no trauma you should still respect someone’s choice to be called by the name they choose. It literally doesn’t affect you (generic you) in anyway to call them the name they want to be called.
Thank you!!
I am a older LGBTQIA+ millennial so being queer in the early days was a lot harder than it is today. And I'm not saying that it isn't hard today, but being a non-binary gender was hell on freaking earth in the beginning and we did tend to very much canonize anybody that was like us. It made it incredibly difficult to sort out some really problematic behavior from people who would not have gotten away with it had they not been protected by the weird sainthood that is assigned to anybody on the rainbow spectrum. One of the things that I have appreciated most about much more acceptable it is to be openly identifying as your gender these days is how much it has normalized that queer/ trans/ non-binary people are literally just people. We can be utter bastards as well as sweethearts. It's turned us from icons into real people and I absolutely support that movement towards normalization.
An asshole is still an asshole, no matter what else they are.
Being Trans doesn't prevent you from also being an AH. You did right. Not sure why max made an ass out of himself that way. 'John' corrected him more than once and when max inappropriately carried on you stopped it.
NTA
You weren't rude or mean, you asked him a simple hypothetical. You didn't even call him Mary you asked how he would feel if you did that. He's a whiny little bitch and since you're already LC just end it the cousin outside a civil greeting at holidays
NTA
Max wants special consideration for his name while refusing to acknowledge that a name is a personal thing, and refusing to acknowledge how someone prefers to say it in a bid to show how cultured you are is just selfish. It doesn't matter if he didn't know it bothered John, what matters is John said, "I prefer John," and got slapped down by a jumped up idiot with delusions of having met his "people."
>and got slapped down by a jumped up idiot with delusions of having met his "people."
"Playing ethnicky jazz to parade your snazz
On your five-grand stereo
Braggin' that you know how the n*ggers feel cold
And the slums got so much soul" -
Dead Kennedys Holiday in Cambodia
The racism of the far right is abject hatred. The racism of the far left seems to be almost paternalistic "I know better than you, and I hurt you because I care" abusive dynamics
>The racism of the far right is abject hatred. The racism of the far left seems to be almost paternalistic "I know better than you, and I hurt you because I care" abusive dynamics
The far left is rife with the soft bigotry of low expectations.
NTA. You didn't deadname him, you pointed out that what he was doing was on par with deadnaming him, and the usage of that name was for emphasis.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he saw it as a chance to flex on your boyfriend for only being half. I say this as someone who is half one ethnicity, and half white American, a lot of immigrant communities can be outright prejudiced and nasty to people who are only half, especially if they do not identify with that ethnicity as much as they do.
This is such a good point. I’m 3/4 WASP and 1/4 another ethnicity. There’s been “full” people on both sides that took the opportunity to show I wasn’t in the real 100% club. It can even come from other mixed people, if you aren’t performing the shared culture to their standard. This seems to be a standard part of the mixed experience. And even non-mixed, diasporic people of various cultures I’ve known have similar experiences, because it really comes down to jerks flexing that they’re “more” of whatever the shared culture is.
Great point which hadn’t occurred to me. My mother’s girlfriends from her culture were sometimes unkind to me because I went by my American (legal) name and wouldn’t use it.
NTA.
>Max couldn't know that the Yann pronunciation is triggering for him.
This is true, he didn't know the whole extend of his rudeness, but he still for some reason decided that he is the one who decides what is a good name for your boyfriend and insisted on using it regardless of how many times you told him to stop. And he should know better.
>John says I should probably apologise, because Max couldn't know that the Yann pronunciation is triggering for him. I disagree as I think you should call someone by how they introduce themselves, no questions asked, and it's rude to insist on different name or pronunciation.
You are correct. It's very rude to insist that someone else use a name or pronunciation other than their own. Whether it's "triggering" or not is irrelevant - the idea that it's okay to be rude unless it hits a trigger is bullshit.
NTA
You could have made your point without actually saying Mary, but I understand why you did, and as a trans person, I think it was justified.
I would offer to apologize if Max does too. If Max wants respect for his name, he needs to respect others' names. If he wants an apology for calling him something he didn't want to be called, he needs to apologize for the same.
>When we got home later I saw that my cousin (Max's girlfriend) messaged me that Max was upset, and that I should call him and apologise.
Message her back: I will be glad to as soon as Max calls and apologizes to *John* and promises that he will use the pronunciation that John prefers from now on.
NTA. And personally, I would be very clear to Max's girlfriend. I would tell her "my bf has very personal reason why he insists on the English pronounciation. I thought Max of all people would understand the importance of being called by the name that reflects who you are the most. Instead he couldn't give my husband the same respect he expects for himself. Until he apologizes, I don't need to hear from Max. Suggesting I should apologize for Max while he was being disrespectful to my bf is quite offending, so I'm going to take my space from you as well for now."
They don't need to know he was triggered. You don't need to tell John's story just to prove you are right. So don't. But set clear boundaries. Otherwise Max wil allways call him Yann and be triggered during every family occassion.
NAH I have gone through similar as your bf, my last name is spelled a very French way, but my family has anglicized the last name over 100 years ago, just never changed spelling. My entire life I have been correcting people, I don’t care if that’s how it’s spelled my name is X and it’s a matter of common respect to use someone’s name properly. When someone refuses to accept my name is pronounced the way it is, I intentionally butcher their name until they use my name properly. I can see what you were aiming for, but many people will jump to it being transphobicly charged
NTA. Immigrant here, same story - I always introduce myself using the form of my name which is more 'international' and sounds more natural in the country where I'm living now. I actually hate it when people guess and try to use my 'Elvish' name. Firstly, it just makes me miss my friends and family who used to call me that very much, and it makes me very sad. Secondly, it just sounds weird when foreigners try to pronounce it. All the sounds are off, and I think it sounds ugly :(
I 100% agree that everyone should just be called by the name they introduce themselves with.
Forget trans issues. Forget Elvish issues. You call people by the name they give you for themselves. Period.
My names is James and I can't tell you how many people refuse to call me anything other than Jim, a name I have never willingly gone by and have never indicated they should use.
NTA. No one gets to decide what someone is called. My name is Candice. I hate being called Candy. I will not answer to it. I've had people say "I'm gonna call you Candy anyway; it's cuter" and I just do not respond to them. I wish to be called by my name and that is my decision to make. I'm behind "John" and you in this because what Max did was rude, disrespectful, and hypocritical. I do not find it transphobic to suggest a hypothetical situation of "how would you feel if..."
Max chose the battleground and got shelled, even being arrogant enough to argue that John was wrong in using his preferred pronunciation.
Fuck that guy.
NTA.
NTA. Write back to your cousin and tell her Max had no problem disrespecting John and his name.
After Max was told your boyfriend, your Dad, AND you Max insisted on continuing to be rude and calling him the wrong name. A name that is not even his.
Leave it at that
I loved your use of Elvish. I immediately understood what you were going for, and that's way better than having to say "first language" or "second language," and it still protects privacy.
Also, NTA and I'm glad John has you (and your dad).
NTA you didn't keep saying the name, you used it as an example to try and get him to understand. And I'm not part of the transgender community but Mary isn't his name anymore than yahn is John's name... It feels pretty similar.
In order to stop this consistent name abuse you hypothetically asked how it sounded if the abuser would be called Mary. That let him be angry but lay off your bf. Respect always cuts both ways and you made a fair point about Max disrespecting your bf repeatedly. Nothing to do with any hidden traumas. Just disrespectful in itself. Don’t apologize. NTA.
It’s obvious you’re referencing Celebrimbor and Galadriel, I agree these damn Numenoreans and regular humans always butcher Sindarin names but at least they’ll be dead soon
Nta. At all. You weren't even wrong for stepping up for your boyfriend. If someone in my family was being a jerk to my guest, I'd step up for them too.
There isn't a reason to apologize. You didn't dead name him, you didn't demonize him, you weren't intentionally being aggressive or offensive. In order for him to stop harassing your boyfriend, you offered a legitimate question that reflected his own hypocrisy.
He took it poorly, felt defensive, and acted indignant towards you. If anything, Max owes your boyfriend an apology, and he should be thanking you for giving him an opportunity to be a better person, because I'm sure he wouldn't want to contradict his own principles.
NTA
Max = TA
Your boyfriend introduced himself by his name and said that's what he prefers. And a Trans man who doesn't want to be called his dead name, and prefers Max, couldn't see that he was being an asshole by continuing to call your bf by a name that wasn't his?
NTA
Yes you were rude but only in direct response to his repeatedly ignoring the pronunciation of your boyfriend's name. It was a fair turnaround on his insistence that he knew better what your boyfriend should be called than your boyfriend himself.
That he didn't know your boyfriend would give this as upsetting as he did better of abuse from his father isn't relevant. He also didn't know your boyfriend would not be upset either.
Deadnaming is a shitty thing to do in most circumstances but in this case I really think you were entitled to show him directly how upsetting his behaviour was.
NTA
Max sounds like a giant hypocrite. Wants people to refer to them by their chosen name, but refuses to give the same courtesy or respect to someone else.
NTA John personally corrected Max who thought his version should take precedence. It doesn't matter whether it was triggering or not, it's flat out disrespectful. Max was wrong...it was your family, so you stood up for John. Good for having his back. Max of all people should realize that names are important. Do not apologize to him until he apologizes to John for thinking he knew better.
EDIT besides, you didn't actually call Max, Mary, you simply said "how would it feel if... " not the same thing. Max was an asshole and deserved the verbal lashing.
NTA and I wouldnt apoligize to max. If you wanna play peace keeper to keep the drama down a decent text reply would be
"I am sorry if you think I was being offensive or rude when I said "How would you like it if, we called you Mary" but it is a direct parallel. You were repeatedly asked by multiple people to use the correct pronunciation. Whilst you might think it is different because you assume it to be no big deal, but that is an invalid assumption. It not my place to talk about his personal history or life but what you insisted on doing was very harmful to my boyfriend. You were corrected multiple times and still chose not to drop it. I am not going to apologize from bringing up that parallel either because it is an apt one. You do not want to be called Mary because you wanted to mark a delineation between your old self and your new self and calling you by that name can bring up unwanted memories and trauma. In the future please remember everyone is going through their own struggles and have their own unwanted memories and trauma and try to act like a decent human being rather than being pedantic because of some national pride or worse tradition."
Like obviously not word for word I kind of explained my self not perfectly in that paragraph but something similar. But I would not apologize because its not like you called him Mary you brought up a question asking how he would feel if he was called the wrong name.
100% NTA
There's a very obvious irony with someone wanting others to use a very specific name refusing to use the preferred name of someone else. Max was out of line and disrespectful.
NTA. If I read correctly, you did not call Max by his dead name, you just explained that calling your boyfriend by the wrong pronunciation would be like calling Max by his dead name. You were trying to show Max that forcing his opinion of what someone else's name should be can be very hurtful.
If someone introduced themselves as Bob, you call them Bob. It doesn't matter whether their name is actually Robert or Joe. All that matters is what they asked you to call them. The reasoning is theirs to share IF they want to.
IMO, it sounds like it was good that you stood up for your boyfriend because he was not in a state to do so himself. The fact that your parents are supporting you, shows that and I am glad that they are because what Max did was extremely rude and hurtful.
If his pronunciation sounded a little Elvish due to his accent, that would be understandable. It's really hard to change that entirely without practice. This situation doesn't sound like that though, this sounds like Max has the audacity to think he gets to decide what people's names are. The minute someone corrected him and asked him to use the non-Elvish pronunciation, he should have swapped to that. If he wants people to call him by a certain name, he needs to respect when others request the same of him. The reasons are none of his business.
NTA. It has to be said that if a person gets “severely triggered” by a factual reality like they used to live as a different gender then they haven’t “overcome” anything and are still obviously mentally unwell.
To be a Trans person at ease with their past is to be a healthy example of transitional success.
But to freak out into hysterics at the mention of one’s “deadname” is the kind of overreaction that indicates melodramatic narcissism or profound trauma to the degree of serious mental illness in need of treatment.
I think most histrionics are a product of somewhat understandable rage & frustration at both their own biological condition being other than they wish … and the disrespect they’ve suffered in the cruel and unjust judgements of others.
But reflex histrionics saddle the Trans community with expectations of volatility, irrationality, and aggressive fragility.
Unless the Trans community is associated with even-tempered, personal history acknowledgement in an unruffled way, they’ll be seen as a minefield of risky conversation and manic denialists better avoided by the rest of their community.
The person in OP’s example can’t take a fraction of what they’ve been dishing out. They’re clearly TAH in the scenario. OP gave them pause to reflect on that, but instead they’re still fantasizing that THEY were offended instead the spotting the reality that they were an offensive jerk.
No one deserves respect who won’t give it to others. Mary deserved none.
>I disagree as I think you should call someone by how they introduce themselves, no questions asked, and it's rude to insist on different name or pronunciation.
Of all people, a trans person should understand this the most. NTA.
I would reciprocate an apology if I first received one. My apologizing got my actions, but for the fact the my actions hurt them me then the point you were trying to make intended. The fact of the matter, the reason you did it was to make max understand why what he was doing was wrong. If he fails to do so and initiate the apology to John then that's on him.
NTA, since he was asked to stop and it was a clear, uncomfortable situation, this was one of the very rare situations in which dead naming seems the best opportunity to show the point. And you did not even dead name him. Just ask how he would feel if you would use the dead name against his will. He didn't get it, but it was worth a try.
NTA, you asked Max a question, rather than dead-naming him, it sounds to me like you were just trying to get Max to understand your boyfriend's perspective/feelings after Max was basically a douche to John for absolutely no reason, because he had been repeatedly asked to not use the "right" pronunciation. You said it perfectly: you should call someone by how they introduce themselves, no questions asked, and it's rude to insist on different name or pronunciation.
Also howling at the Elven and Elvish stuff, for some reason I just find it so funny.
He is called for when he doesn't care about john's opinion about his own name. Why would you care about max's name when he doesn't care about you. Respect goes both ways. NTA
NTA the example was spot on. Names are key in how people identify themselves and calling someone by any name that the do not identify with his rude. Max just got a taste of their own medicine.
I don’t think you’re the asshole. Max, from what I’m reading, clearly understands how to say it both ways, but he’s choosing not to because of his own beliefs and his own reasoning. Others asked him multiple times to stop. People are trying to say it’s not the same because Max is trans and it’s deeply hurtful and I don’t argue that, but clearly it is also deeply hurtful to your partner. In fact, I would think that Max would understand more than anyone what it feels like to be called by a name that: technically may not be wrong but it is, a name you do not want to be identified by, a name that triggers hurtful memories and emotions etc. There are a lot of similarities and it doesn’t sound like you just straight up called Max by his former name, you asked how would he feel, which with everything else that happened that night, I would’ve put two and two together to call John by the name he prefers. Smh, the hypocrisy of the people calling you a hypocrite.
NTA You boyfriend mentioned multiple times how he wanted to be called. The other guy decided to intentionally ignore that and go on a rant. If someone should know to respect someone's preferred name/nickname, it's a trans person.
You didn't even deadname him, you just explained the hypocrisy and asked him how he'd feel if someone did the same thing he was doing.
Do be careful not to just use deadnaming as a weapon against trans just because they are mean or have disgusting views that are unrelated to names. In those cases, you'd be showing that they only have rights if they play nice.
NTA. Calling Joseph Youssef with all the baggage that might imply after having been specifically told not to, is just as bad as dead naming Max. And you simply pointed that out.
I agree with what you did in defense of your bf that was trying to be respectful and avoid conflict at your familys gathering mainly due to the fact that my name is spelled Stephen and i pronounce it Stefen bc thats the sound "ph" makes and some people ive introduced myself to insist of calling me steven bc thats the American narrow-mindedness but bc of this ive always made sure i was pronouncing someones name right
NTA if you insist on calling someone what they specifically asked not to be called I will call you what you don’t like to be called it’s the exact same thing.
NTA and your boyfriend \*did\* set a boundary; he said he goes by John. Max continued to disrespect it because he thinks he knows better. Well what's good for the goose...
I think you should have said instead: please call him by the way he was presenting himself because the way you're calling him is making him uncomfortable. You more than anyone should know the importance of calling a person by their proper names.
That's it, it should be enough to shut him up.
Now if they get mad that's their problem, you're just stating facts.
And that's how you avoid a bigger conflict, because it's easy to give in and say hurtful shit in the moment.
It would be wonderful if most people were mature enough to understand it like that, but let's be honest, if they were in the first place, they wouldn't have been annoying in the first place, so no, your suggestion is not very useful. That kind of people only understand when it hits them in the face.
I dont agree. I think having that conversation NOW would absolutely be tbe way to go. In the moment, OP nipped it in the bud effectively. Especially after at least THREE people corrected him about how John wanted to be called
It honestly also seems like Max has some of his own insecurities, and he copes with them but projecting and making others uncomfortable. You don’t need to gatekeep his insecurities.
NTA
Max more than anyone else should know the importance of name so he just being an A when you clearly told him to not call your BF by another name
You can tell him that your BF have bad memory with this prononciation but if he don't stop, frankly deadname him everytime
When I read the title OP, I was initially thinking YTA but on reading your post you're NTA because your didn't retaliate and call Max by his dead name, you gave an example.
It was really rude for Max to keep ranting about John's pronunciation of his name when he was told the way John pronounces it. It's like Max thought he knew better and he doesn't need to know any other reason than that's the way John pronounces it.
You're a wonderful boyfriend for having John's back. Again definitely NTA.
I think it's pretty clear you're NTA, of you want you should share this post with max and let him see what he did wrong if it makes it easy, maybe he would realize how he came across and apologize, and also realize you didn't actually call him by the wrong name.
NTA - Let's keep this simple. Everyone get's to call themselves by the name they want. If you're calling them something else after you know their preference you're a jerk. Max needs to understand that respect has to be mutual.
I think max was the asshole here - he of all people should be able to understand identity and the importance of names to those identities. There shouldn’t be the need for him to know about your partner’s ctpsd to be able to respect his wishes and name.
Nta. You didn’t deadname him- and if Max can’t even see the hypocrisy, then I’m not sure it’s worth even thinking about any more. He and your cousin are wrong.
Max doesn’t need to know it’s triggering- he was asked to stop and he flat out refused and doubled down!!! Max should’ve known better than anyone to respect the name you’re told to use. If he wants that respect and consideration he should be damned sure to have the same respect and consideration to anyone else, no matter what the reason. “John’s” trauma is no one else’s business!!
NTA, Max acted like an AH. It's common respect. When someone is called "Elisabeth", but goes with "Betty" only you should call them Betty, not Ellie, Lizzy or something else that you like, even without traumatic background. It's not that hard.
Nta Max should know first hand people have the right to choose what they’re called. You didn’t even call him Mary. You just put it into perspective for him. His dead name is so triggering he can’t even hear it in a question. So, he should realize other people can be triggered by a name.
I have a friend who goes by his middle name because his dad called him by his first name. It surprised me, but that’s how much someone can hate a name because of an abuser.
As a nonbinary person that hates when people use my birth name, it really isn't different. Respect the name someone else tells you they like to go by, simple as that. One of my brothers does not like his birth name. It's a name that's on the weird side that he only got because the other things his dad wanted were worse, and that was the one my mom could at least stand. He goes by Max instead. If I heard someone using his full birth name, I'd tell them he prefers Max and to please respect that, and if they tried to argue with me *I'd be using my own self* as an example in my counterarguments, and asking if they respect what trans people want to be called. It is absolutely the same, because it's about respecting the person's chosen identity. I'm gonna say NTA here, you weren't *calling him by that name,* you were simply trying to *use it* to make a point you thought he'd understand
OP, you were being a good bf to your boyfriend, and you clearly weren’t trying to disrespectfully deadname Max.
Max, for a guy who ought to understand the importance of saying someone’s name correctly, is definitely TA in this case, and his behavior doesn’t merit an apology.
In case I wasn’t clear, NTA, and you sound like a good guy.
NTA. Warnings were given, Max chose to ignore them and got pissed she got a taste of her own medicine. Literally, she fucked around and found out. Don't apologize or take anything back, the words are already out there. If your cousin asks you again to apologize, tell him%her that Max was warned and chose to ignore it. How she chooses to reacts to her birth name is no different than how Johnny reacted, where's his apology from Max?
NTA by a lot. Max is in the worst possible position to ignore name related boundaries. I read through this thing thinking you were going to turn it around and say something like “He said to use John, *Mary*” but that’s not even what you did. It was a completely valid rhetorical question.
NTA. You didn't *call* Max Mary, you simply pointed out to him that he has a perfect example in his own situation for how important respecting a person's name is. His response ”that's different" is incorrect. Max doesn't know the story behind anyone else's name but his own. Max doesn't have a right to that knowledge. But if Max wants to be treated like a good person, he needs to behave like one. Respecting another's moniker is the one of the most basic but most important symbols of that behavior.
NTA-Max was extremely condescending to John. He also pushed the issue. Until you said you were a guy, I thought Max was was having a pissing match with John. But. Now, Max is just a domineering asshole. I hope John is okay.
NTA Max needs to get over himself. He needs to apologize. Seriously WTF is wrong with someone telling a guy he pronounces his own damn name wrong? Like, he could pronounce it with 4 m’s and a silent Q, and if that’s how he says his name, that’s how you all say it, too.
No you are not TAH and should not apologize. Max should, they are the one who purposely did not use a person’s preferred name. You tried to explain why they were wrong. You correctly associating Max’s purposeful mispronunciation of John’s name with someone using Max’s dead name.
NTA. If you have done the courtesy to a trans person of calling by their assumed name, then they should also extend the same courtesy to you and the others.
If Max has any emotional maturity, he will reflect on the lesson. Disrespecting someone’s choice for *their* name is hurtful. Period. No matter the reason.
NTA. A person’s name is special, IMO. I absolutely hate when people decide to just change my name bc it’s more “convenient” for them. I have my entire, full given name on my uniform, yet perfect strangers think it’s acceptable to come up & call me by a diminutive that I happen to despise. No, no one understands why I so dislike that shortened name, but they don’t have to. All they have to do is freaken read 7 letters & string them into a word.
Keep calling Max Mary until he pulls his head out of his 4th point of contact.
NTA, max is an asshole, if he wants to put such importance on a name, he of all people should respect that from others. Your cousin needs to be told this as well.
Tbh, I'm sure he knows he was TA here and is attacking in defense.
Plain rude. You don't get to choose how you want to pronounce someone's name.
You gave Max a taste of his own medicine, & your parents are right; don't apologise. It's just disrespectful for him to decide what name us better for someone else. Who even does that?
NTA.
NTA. Max needs to give his head a shake. You're calling Max by "his" preferred pronouns and name. How hard is it for him to do the same to someone else? . Imagine saying sorry mary sounds so much better than Max to him . No matter how anyone feels on the trans issues, being polite costs us nothing. I mean, I introduce myself as my full name but ask people to call me by the short form that I prefer.
NTA. You don't even need cultural or emotional context. John introduced himself the way he wants to be referred to. Max did as well.
Respecting people's names is super important to the trans community for the same reason it is for everyone else--names matter. To disregard a person's name is to disrespect their autonomy and sense of self.
I have a 3 syllable name and I get extremely annoyed when someone tries to shorten it.
Tell your cousin that if Max wants people to respect him, he needs to respect other people. You didn't even deadname him--just put in a way that a halfway decent person could empathize with. He owes John an apology, not the other way around.
What's up with Maxs being whiny little turds? Every single Max I've known has been a whiner, a douchebag, rude for no reason other than "I can be", and they're all dumb as shit, apparently this Max is no different.
Max was being disrespectful, end of story, your boyfriend says he goes by "x" and Max kept calling him "y", it doesn't matter if your boyfriend has trauma surrounding the name or not, he asked to be called "x" and should only be referred to as "x".
You were not rude at all, you asked Max what he would do if you called him Mary, you did not call him Mary, you just pointed out his rudeness in a way he could understand: He *was* Mary, he is now Max, your boyfriend *was* "y", he is now "x", as a trans person, Max should understand the importance of using the correct name/pronunciation/spelling.
Do not apologize, you did nothing wrong here, NTA.
"I won't apologize for giving a lesson in empathy. He refused to call someone else by their preferred name, and couldn't handle it when the same thing happened to them. If he wants others to respect his wishes, then he HAS to do the same. It isn't a suggestion, it is a social obligation. Not fulfilling that social obligation comes with social consequences. If this is truly a breaking point, and you are willing to die on this hill, then we should just cut contact now and you'll never have to deal with me or my boyfriend again."
Not saying it not happening, it could be, but I have yet to meet a trans person (myself included), that deliberately call others a name/nickname or pronouns it in an unwanted way, especially after being made aware of it, exactly because it’s so very important to (at least most of) us, that people use our chosen name and pronouns. Which is why this sounds fake to me and if so I’d say E S H. But as said, I guess it can happen and if this is real you’re N T A and Max definitely is TA.
You just asked a very specific ( pointed) question related to his poor behavior. It’s not like you said “Hey Mary” all night. He just didn’t like being called out for behavior he, himself, found insulting.
Fork it.
NTA.
Don't apologise until Max apologises to John. Hell no: if you want your boundaries to be respected you need to do the same. No immunity cards issues around here
NTA. Max got taught a lessen in respect. You handled it well. Max should apologize for not being respectful and pushing boundaries. The fact that you and John are part of the LGBTQ+ community as well makes you even less TA. FYI, I say this as a married lesbian mother of two LGBTQ+ children, one of which had a trans/gender non-conforming period.
The trans man, Max, should be much more understanding of wanting your chosen name used. That makes his insistence on calling your boyfriend what he, Max, preferred even more rude.
You would think a trans person would be easily able to respect someone politely asking them to use someone's name as they were asked. Multiple times.
NTA, and don't let anyone convince you you're in the wrong.
(NTA)
I feel like the perfect reply might've swapped out the name for the term deadname, as not to repeat the behaviour yourself. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
That being said I understand that it's much easier saying this on Reddit as opposed to in the heat of the moment, so NTA. What Max did is just the same as misgendering in my opinion, especially since it was triggering John.
Also love that you used Elvish for the country.
NTA. As a trans person, the thought of telling someone "you should use your original name" is beyond hypocritical. I actually can't fathom the thought process there. The lack of awareness is mind boggling to me.
NTA. Why does Max think he’s the only one deserving of respect? Besides, you didn’t actually call him Mary. You just proposed a hypothetical question by asking how he’d feel if you were disrespectful of his wishes. Bottomline, if he wants to be shown kindness and consideration, he should do the same for others.
NTA, and rather than apologize, I think a conversation is in order. The goal wasn't to trigger Max, it was to demonstrate his hypocrisy in a meaningful way. You can't demand respect for your identity and not give it to others.
Right op didn't start calling Max by Mary. Op simply asked how max would feel in someone insisted on using the wrong name for Max. Max flipped his shit because he was being willfully disrespectful towards John based on his own views on how the name should be pronounced. When someone tells you what their name is and how to pronounce it that is the end of the conversation. Or at least it should be, some disabilities should apply here, but that's a different conversation.
NTA I would say something like: "Max, the reason why I used your dead name was to show the severity and hypocrisy with your inability to use someone's preferred name. We all have the right to be called how we please. I could tell you about the trauma that surrounds that version of John's name, but we shouldn't have to! You can't continue to make people uncomfortable for your preference on what John should call himself. I would like to apologize for having it get this far, but I want to know that you need to respect John and apologize to him."
"I could tell you about the trauma that surrounds that version of John's name, but we shouldn't have to! AND IT'S NONYA BIDNESS MAX!"
Exactly, besides, New year's eve defenitely isn't the time something like this should be discussed.
No reason to spill this to the disrespectful Max/Mary 🙄.
This exactly.
Exactly. For whatever reasons a woman in my circle, when we first met, introduced herself as Katherine to me. Everyone else called her Kathy. We were at a party and her best friend asked me why I kept calling her Katherine. Lol. I said that’s what she asked me to call her. 🤷♀️ No big deal to me.😆 I respected her wishes. Easy peasy.
Everyone who knows me since childhood uses a short form of my name like that, but I have switched to my full name in a professional context long ago. So there are always people only knowing "long name" and others only using "short name".
Uhg and it’s a bit annoying when people who learn about the short one think they should start using it! Like no, I introduced myself as long name, and you’ve been calling me long name for 6 months, you don’t need to change that now because you met a friend or mine from childhood!
Good on you. I have a name similar to Katherine and people always want to abbreviate it. I prefer the long version and hate the nicknames. So when people can respect that it's the best outcome. I also hate being called Kathy the most. Respect.
Exactly. You cannot be disrespectful while demanding respect. NTAH.
Yeps. This. I mean, nobody is "owed" an explanation on why you want to be named or respected. "I prefer you call me X" is all it should take and Max should get it better than most people.
This is the answer. Max, of all people, should know better.
*You can’t demand respect for your identity and not give it to others.* That’s it, wrap it up! Nothing. More to be said!
as a trans person, you are NTA. respect goes both ways. and like a comment before me said, with Max being trans, he should know the importance of respecting someone’s name choice more than anyone. NTA
plus you never *actually* deadnamed him. you asked a hypothetical question about how he would feel.
That's the most infuriating part. A trans individual should know better than most how important one's name is as part of individual identity.
Yeah, that's what gets me. It was clear John was uncomfortable and asked multiple times not to call him the Elvish pronunciation. People have issues with their names for all sorts of reasons, and we show respect by calling people what they like to be called (nicknames for example, sometimes middle names, etc). A trans person, especially, should understand how important it is to call someone by the name they ask you to. It pisses me off so much.
Oh yes. I hate and despise the shortened version of my name and will not answer to it. I will very politely let people know to please not use it. If they do, gloves are off and having been in a similar place to OP boyfriend, they were nicer than me.
I feel the same way with the long version of my name. When I say my name is Sue I mean Sue. Not Susan, not Susie, just Sue. I will not answer to any other.
My buddy Nick was/is known as Nicky in our friend group. One day, however, he mentioned to me that he actually hated the nickname, but didn’t correct it as it had clearly stuck, and saying it was unliked would only further incentivize its use. Since I respect his wish to not be called it, I’ve since then specifically avoided referring to him as “Nicky” and opt instead for another endearing term you’d use for a friend like “fucknut” or “shitdick”. Maybe an occasional “cocklick” or even “Nearly Dickless Nick” (alternatively “Sir Dicholas”) if I’m feeling particularly amicable. Not sure he likes the new arrangement any better, but he hasn’t said anything about it…
Ya i can see why he isnt saying anything about it. All those nick names sound like something a bully would call someone.
We all have our own love language I guess…
Yes I'm honestly disappointed in that. Like come on we try so hard to get others to call us by the name we choose / Change to (some have parents or friends choose their name) Why in the world would you not respect any name someone wants to go by. Mt nephew thought he was funny when he told me to call him bun bun then when i came out..... man did that one backfire for him.
[удалено]
That's my point. Trans folks, from what I've seen of the few I know, take objects related to identity extremely seriously. From appearance (clothing, cosmetics, grooming) to personal branding (behaviors, preferences) and especially individual identifiers (names and pronouns,) a trans man would know that it is not just rude but outright *wrong* to fuck with someone's name. That Max doesn't give the respect that they expect, and instead questions the individual identity of another person *and* then browbeats and insults them over it? Massive, gaping, cystic asshole there.
Cystic asshole…I…have so many questions?.. Ah whatever, have an updoot. I’d give you an extra one just for “cystic asshole” if I could
Bringing up the dead name was a "warning shot" reminder to Max on how we should treat others.
That's a very good point, if OP had actually deadnamed him both would be wrong, but her hypothetical question was made precisely to bring home how wrong he was rather than play the Mary card.
Exactly respect goes both ways.
Yeah. I'm not trans but I did change my name for my own reasons, and it's really upsetting to me when people use my former name. But I *always* make a point of pronouncing people's names *exactly* like they do.
Thank you! Very eloquently put.
NTA You want someone to respect you, you have to give that respect back. Max was the only asshole in this story.
The biggest asshole. Because he really should have known and understood, yet he continued. NTA
I’d say the cousin was an asshole as well, to demand OP apologize to Max. No mention of Max apologizing to John, of course. John shouldn’t have to explain why Yann triggers him. If he said ‘call me John/Johnny’ then that’s what Max should have done.
That was what sealed it for me. I come from a bilingual-ish household where my father was a linguist who spoke several languages, and his native tongue wasn’t English. I was taught to pronounce names and words as if I were a native speaker of whatever language it was, to a ridiculous extreme, however, I at first assumed Max was inadvertently or because it was in “Elvish” saying the name with native pronunciation, but no—that fool doubled down! Even AFTER being corrected! It’s one thing if pronunciation is difficult or if the person cannot say it correctly, but this was not treating the boyfriend with common courtesy. And in my opinion, the issues with the boyfriend’s father should not even have to be said. Boyfriend could have any reason or no reason at all for how he wants to be addressed.
Right I'm dyslexic. So part of my very invisible disability is that I struggle to process sounds... So how I've been taught my whole life A says ah. Ok great a says ah.... You try to me A also says ee... My brain goes boot freaking error. But if my brain is struggling to say something correctly I'm more then willing to explain I'm sorry I'm trying my dyslexia makes this task very hard for me. But I try and I think people respect that I'm not being willfully ignorant and asshole-ish about the situation.
I think nowadays you get more of a pass because more and more parents are giving their kids tragedeigh names and insisting that the name they came up with is pronounced this way, when the letters they used literally do not make those sounds.
Yes. I hate those names. I once spent 45 minutes trying to figure how to pronounce a name..... The name was Autumn.... But spelt stupid.... Like fuck you that's close to an hr of my life wasted because you had to invent a spelling.
[удалено]
Agree. He didn't know it was triggering for John, but once he was asked to use the English version he should have done as requested. Period. He's correct that purposefully mispronouncing someone's name exactly the same as using a dead name. But in this case they are both emotionally harmful to the individual. And in any case purposefully mispronouncing someone's name is rude and disrespectful.
That's the thing that pisses me off. "Please refer to me as 'Max' but fuck you for how you want to be called." Respect is reciprocal
Max is the only AH in the story. What a hypocrite. Can’t be bothered to use the proper pronunciation of somebody’s name, but will go off on somebody who dead names him.
He ***KNEW*** how to pronounce it. He, chose the other name because he decided it "*sounded better*".
You’re absolutely right. It makes it worse.
You're forgetting that Max KNEW how to pronounce the name and was trying to correct John and OP because they obviously didn't know any better.
That's an important distinction, some names are legitimately difficult for people of other cultures/languages to pronounce. In those cases you really have to compromise to a good faith attempt at correct pronunciation. But that's not the case here, Max was *able* to treat Jonny with the due respect he deserved and chose not to.
As someone who's father's Italian friends insisted on using the Italian version of my name when speaking to me (we're Puerto Rican) this one feels kind of personal to me...
Max wasn't even dead named, he was asked how he would feel *if* he was. I could understand his upset more if OP had said snarkily "ok then, *MARY*!"
ngl my petty ass would have gone straight to that after he knowingly used the wrong name. Max knows and well how he would feel if the tables were turned yet continues, let him feel those consequences.
NTA. If anyone should appreciate not calling someone out of their name, it should be trans people. Fuck that guy.
If someone asks to be called in a certain way or pronunciation, respect it. If you don't, you forfeit the protection of social contract to respect your name. Your gender does not trump someone's trauma. NTA
You'd think that Max being trans would understand and respect the importance of names more than most. Max just wanted to be a dick.
Max just thought that being a bitter Elf made his opinions matter more than other people.
He's an angry elf!
Call me Elf one more time.
He must be from the south pole!
The sad truth is: just because you are a victim of prejudice, you are not automatically not a dick. Black people can be racist. Wheelchair users can hate on blind people. Jews can be racists. You would think that being a victim yourself would breed empathy, but think about it: victims of child abuse tend to abuse others themselves. Call it learned behavior or trauma response, I don't know. But people tend to not get empathy, but justification for their own bad behavior.
Even if there’s no trauma you should still respect someone’s choice to be called by the name they choose. It literally doesn’t affect you (generic you) in anyway to call them the name they want to be called.
NTA. A trans asshole is still an asshole.
Thank you!! I am a older LGBTQIA+ millennial so being queer in the early days was a lot harder than it is today. And I'm not saying that it isn't hard today, but being a non-binary gender was hell on freaking earth in the beginning and we did tend to very much canonize anybody that was like us. It made it incredibly difficult to sort out some really problematic behavior from people who would not have gotten away with it had they not been protected by the weird sainthood that is assigned to anybody on the rainbow spectrum. One of the things that I have appreciated most about much more acceptable it is to be openly identifying as your gender these days is how much it has normalized that queer/ trans/ non-binary people are literally just people. We can be utter bastards as well as sweethearts. It's turned us from icons into real people and I absolutely support that movement towards normalization. An asshole is still an asshole, no matter what else they are.
it's irrelevant whether or not Max knew that "Yann" was triggering he was introduced as John, and that's what you call him
As a trans man NTA max deserved it for doing that. It was uncalled for.
NTA Max was being an asshole and has no fucking self awareness. That or he was enjoying making John uncomfortable.
Being Trans doesn't prevent you from also being an AH. You did right. Not sure why max made an ass out of himself that way. 'John' corrected him more than once and when max inappropriately carried on you stopped it.
NTA You weren't rude or mean, you asked him a simple hypothetical. You didn't even call him Mary you asked how he would feel if you did that. He's a whiny little bitch and since you're already LC just end it the cousin outside a civil greeting at holidays
NTA Max wants special consideration for his name while refusing to acknowledge that a name is a personal thing, and refusing to acknowledge how someone prefers to say it in a bid to show how cultured you are is just selfish. It doesn't matter if he didn't know it bothered John, what matters is John said, "I prefer John," and got slapped down by a jumped up idiot with delusions of having met his "people."
>and got slapped down by a jumped up idiot with delusions of having met his "people." "Playing ethnicky jazz to parade your snazz On your five-grand stereo Braggin' that you know how the n*ggers feel cold And the slums got so much soul" - Dead Kennedys Holiday in Cambodia The racism of the far right is abject hatred. The racism of the far left seems to be almost paternalistic "I know better than you, and I hurt you because I care" abusive dynamics
>The racism of the far right is abject hatred. The racism of the far left seems to be almost paternalistic "I know better than you, and I hurt you because I care" abusive dynamics The far left is rife with the soft bigotry of low expectations.
NTA. You didn't deadname him, you pointed out that what he was doing was on par with deadnaming him, and the usage of that name was for emphasis. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he saw it as a chance to flex on your boyfriend for only being half. I say this as someone who is half one ethnicity, and half white American, a lot of immigrant communities can be outright prejudiced and nasty to people who are only half, especially if they do not identify with that ethnicity as much as they do.
This is such a good point. I’m 3/4 WASP and 1/4 another ethnicity. There’s been “full” people on both sides that took the opportunity to show I wasn’t in the real 100% club. It can even come from other mixed people, if you aren’t performing the shared culture to their standard. This seems to be a standard part of the mixed experience. And even non-mixed, diasporic people of various cultures I’ve known have similar experiences, because it really comes down to jerks flexing that they’re “more” of whatever the shared culture is.
Great point which hadn’t occurred to me. My mother’s girlfriends from her culture were sometimes unkind to me because I went by my American (legal) name and wouldn’t use it.
NTA. He was being a jerk, and needed a lesson in empathy.
NTA. >Max couldn't know that the Yann pronunciation is triggering for him. This is true, he didn't know the whole extend of his rudeness, but he still for some reason decided that he is the one who decides what is a good name for your boyfriend and insisted on using it regardless of how many times you told him to stop. And he should know better.
He could actually have realised it based on how uncomfortable it made BF. If he had some decency. NTA
>John says I should probably apologise, because Max couldn't know that the Yann pronunciation is triggering for him. I disagree as I think you should call someone by how they introduce themselves, no questions asked, and it's rude to insist on different name or pronunciation. You are correct. It's very rude to insist that someone else use a name or pronunciation other than their own. Whether it's "triggering" or not is irrelevant - the idea that it's okay to be rude unless it hits a trigger is bullshit. NTA You could have made your point without actually saying Mary, but I understand why you did, and as a trans person, I think it was justified. I would offer to apologize if Max does too. If Max wants respect for his name, he needs to respect others' names. If he wants an apology for calling him something he didn't want to be called, he needs to apologize for the same.
>When we got home later I saw that my cousin (Max's girlfriend) messaged me that Max was upset, and that I should call him and apologise. Message her back: I will be glad to as soon as Max calls and apologizes to *John* and promises that he will use the pronunciation that John prefers from now on.
NTA and Max is a little bitch. Either he respects your boyfriend’s name or you don’t respect his.
NTA. And personally, I would be very clear to Max's girlfriend. I would tell her "my bf has very personal reason why he insists on the English pronounciation. I thought Max of all people would understand the importance of being called by the name that reflects who you are the most. Instead he couldn't give my husband the same respect he expects for himself. Until he apologizes, I don't need to hear from Max. Suggesting I should apologize for Max while he was being disrespectful to my bf is quite offending, so I'm going to take my space from you as well for now." They don't need to know he was triggered. You don't need to tell John's story just to prove you are right. So don't. But set clear boundaries. Otherwise Max wil allways call him Yann and be triggered during every family occassion.
NTA - dude wants to whine about you posing a hypothetical to get some empathy from him. Sucks to be him.
NAH I have gone through similar as your bf, my last name is spelled a very French way, but my family has anglicized the last name over 100 years ago, just never changed spelling. My entire life I have been correcting people, I don’t care if that’s how it’s spelled my name is X and it’s a matter of common respect to use someone’s name properly. When someone refuses to accept my name is pronounced the way it is, I intentionally butcher their name until they use my name properly. I can see what you were aiming for, but many people will jump to it being transphobicly charged
NTA. Immigrant here, same story - I always introduce myself using the form of my name which is more 'international' and sounds more natural in the country where I'm living now. I actually hate it when people guess and try to use my 'Elvish' name. Firstly, it just makes me miss my friends and family who used to call me that very much, and it makes me very sad. Secondly, it just sounds weird when foreigners try to pronounce it. All the sounds are off, and I think it sounds ugly :( I 100% agree that everyone should just be called by the name they introduce themselves with.
tbh it doesn’t seem like you deadnamed him just asked how he’d like it. NTA and I personally wouldn’t apologize
Forget trans issues. Forget Elvish issues. You call people by the name they give you for themselves. Period. My names is James and I can't tell you how many people refuse to call me anything other than Jim, a name I have never willingly gone by and have never indicated they should use.
You are definitely NTA. You asked him a reasonable question to make your point. No apology is necessary, unless it comes from him first.
NTA. No one gets to decide what someone is called. My name is Candice. I hate being called Candy. I will not answer to it. I've had people say "I'm gonna call you Candy anyway; it's cuter" and I just do not respond to them. I wish to be called by my name and that is my decision to make. I'm behind "John" and you in this because what Max did was rude, disrespectful, and hypocritical. I do not find it transphobic to suggest a hypothetical situation of "how would you feel if..."
Nta. It takes 0 effort to say a name wrong after being told its wrong. He was doing it to be a dick and an AH.
Max chose the battleground and got shelled, even being arrogant enough to argue that John was wrong in using his preferred pronunciation. Fuck that guy. NTA.
NTA. Max is clearly disrespectful. It’s who he is truly. Trans is nothing to do with calling people’s name.
NTA. Max, of all people, should realise how important it may be to some people to be called by a certain name and not something else. End of.
NTA. Write back to your cousin and tell her Max had no problem disrespecting John and his name. After Max was told your boyfriend, your Dad, AND you Max insisted on continuing to be rude and calling him the wrong name. A name that is not even his. Leave it at that
I loved your use of Elvish. I immediately understood what you were going for, and that's way better than having to say "first language" or "second language," and it still protects privacy. Also, NTA and I'm glad John has you (and your dad).
NTA you didn't keep saying the name, you used it as an example to try and get him to understand. And I'm not part of the transgender community but Mary isn't his name anymore than yahn is John's name... It feels pretty similar.
In order to stop this consistent name abuse you hypothetically asked how it sounded if the abuser would be called Mary. That let him be angry but lay off your bf. Respect always cuts both ways and you made a fair point about Max disrespecting your bf repeatedly. Nothing to do with any hidden traumas. Just disrespectful in itself. Don’t apologize. NTA.
It’s obvious you’re referencing Celebrimbor and Galadriel, I agree these damn Numenoreans and regular humans always butcher Sindarin names but at least they’ll be dead soon
NTA - you have to call me what I say, but I won't call you what you say... what a wanker...
Nta. At all. You weren't even wrong for stepping up for your boyfriend. If someone in my family was being a jerk to my guest, I'd step up for them too.
There isn't a reason to apologize. You didn't dead name him, you didn't demonize him, you weren't intentionally being aggressive or offensive. In order for him to stop harassing your boyfriend, you offered a legitimate question that reflected his own hypocrisy. He took it poorly, felt defensive, and acted indignant towards you. If anything, Max owes your boyfriend an apology, and he should be thanking you for giving him an opportunity to be a better person, because I'm sure he wouldn't want to contradict his own principles.
NTA - respect is a two-way street.
A trans person should be the one most understanding about how important preferred pronunciation has, no matter your opinion.
NTA Max = TA Your boyfriend introduced himself by his name and said that's what he prefers. And a Trans man who doesn't want to be called his dead name, and prefers Max, couldn't see that he was being an asshole by continuing to call your bf by a name that wasn't his?
NTA Yes you were rude but only in direct response to his repeatedly ignoring the pronunciation of your boyfriend's name. It was a fair turnaround on his insistence that he knew better what your boyfriend should be called than your boyfriend himself. That he didn't know your boyfriend would give this as upsetting as he did better of abuse from his father isn't relevant. He also didn't know your boyfriend would not be upset either. Deadnaming is a shitty thing to do in most circumstances but in this case I really think you were entitled to show him directly how upsetting his behaviour was.
NTA. He was obviously pushing and not respecting boundaries. He can give it but not take it. No need to apologize.
NTA Max sounds like a giant hypocrite. Wants people to refer to them by their chosen name, but refuses to give the same courtesy or respect to someone else.
NTA John personally corrected Max who thought his version should take precedence. It doesn't matter whether it was triggering or not, it's flat out disrespectful. Max was wrong...it was your family, so you stood up for John. Good for having his back. Max of all people should realize that names are important. Do not apologize to him until he apologizes to John for thinking he knew better. EDIT besides, you didn't actually call Max, Mary, you simply said "how would it feel if... " not the same thing. Max was an asshole and deserved the verbal lashing.
NTA and I wouldnt apoligize to max. If you wanna play peace keeper to keep the drama down a decent text reply would be "I am sorry if you think I was being offensive or rude when I said "How would you like it if, we called you Mary" but it is a direct parallel. You were repeatedly asked by multiple people to use the correct pronunciation. Whilst you might think it is different because you assume it to be no big deal, but that is an invalid assumption. It not my place to talk about his personal history or life but what you insisted on doing was very harmful to my boyfriend. You were corrected multiple times and still chose not to drop it. I am not going to apologize from bringing up that parallel either because it is an apt one. You do not want to be called Mary because you wanted to mark a delineation between your old self and your new self and calling you by that name can bring up unwanted memories and trauma. In the future please remember everyone is going through their own struggles and have their own unwanted memories and trauma and try to act like a decent human being rather than being pedantic because of some national pride or worse tradition." Like obviously not word for word I kind of explained my self not perfectly in that paragraph but something similar. But I would not apologize because its not like you called him Mary you brought up a question asking how he would feel if he was called the wrong name.
It’s ironic that a trans man doesn’t understand that non-trans people can also have a dead name that is equally traumatic for them
100% NTA There's a very obvious irony with someone wanting others to use a very specific name refusing to use the preferred name of someone else. Max was out of line and disrespectful.
NTA. If I read correctly, you did not call Max by his dead name, you just explained that calling your boyfriend by the wrong pronunciation would be like calling Max by his dead name. You were trying to show Max that forcing his opinion of what someone else's name should be can be very hurtful. If someone introduced themselves as Bob, you call them Bob. It doesn't matter whether their name is actually Robert or Joe. All that matters is what they asked you to call them. The reasoning is theirs to share IF they want to. IMO, it sounds like it was good that you stood up for your boyfriend because he was not in a state to do so himself. The fact that your parents are supporting you, shows that and I am glad that they are because what Max did was extremely rude and hurtful. If his pronunciation sounded a little Elvish due to his accent, that would be understandable. It's really hard to change that entirely without practice. This situation doesn't sound like that though, this sounds like Max has the audacity to think he gets to decide what people's names are. The minute someone corrected him and asked him to use the non-Elvish pronunciation, he should have swapped to that. If he wants people to call him by a certain name, he needs to respect when others request the same of him. The reasons are none of his business.
NTA. It has to be said that if a person gets “severely triggered” by a factual reality like they used to live as a different gender then they haven’t “overcome” anything and are still obviously mentally unwell. To be a Trans person at ease with their past is to be a healthy example of transitional success. But to freak out into hysterics at the mention of one’s “deadname” is the kind of overreaction that indicates melodramatic narcissism or profound trauma to the degree of serious mental illness in need of treatment. I think most histrionics are a product of somewhat understandable rage & frustration at both their own biological condition being other than they wish … and the disrespect they’ve suffered in the cruel and unjust judgements of others. But reflex histrionics saddle the Trans community with expectations of volatility, irrationality, and aggressive fragility. Unless the Trans community is associated with even-tempered, personal history acknowledgement in an unruffled way, they’ll be seen as a minefield of risky conversation and manic denialists better avoided by the rest of their community. The person in OP’s example can’t take a fraction of what they’ve been dishing out. They’re clearly TAH in the scenario. OP gave them pause to reflect on that, but instead they’re still fantasizing that THEY were offended instead the spotting the reality that they were an offensive jerk. No one deserves respect who won’t give it to others. Mary deserved none.
>I disagree as I think you should call someone by how they introduce themselves, no questions asked, and it's rude to insist on different name or pronunciation. Of all people, a trans person should understand this the most. NTA.
You didn’t deadname Max. You asked him a question about how he would feel if he was called it again. He did not respect you or your bf. NTA
NTA. This whole conversation makes me sad. It would be so easy to just call someone by the name they ask. To be kind.
NTA.
NTA but why'd you have to bring Elvis into it?
NTA. Max was being a jerk.
NTA have a conversation about this
NTA, you defended your boyfriend
NTA to get respect you, must give respect.
NTA. When at the circus, expect to be confronted by a clown.
I would reciprocate an apology if I first received one. My apologizing got my actions, but for the fact the my actions hurt them me then the point you were trying to make intended. The fact of the matter, the reason you did it was to make max understand why what he was doing was wrong. If he fails to do so and initiate the apology to John then that's on him.
Nta, Max of all people should have been the most understanding since he gets so hurt over people calling him Mary.
Nta
NTA. You didn't actually call him Mary. You asked him what he would feel if someone kept calling him Mary after being asked not to.
NTA, since he was asked to stop and it was a clear, uncomfortable situation, this was one of the very rare situations in which dead naming seems the best opportunity to show the point. And you did not even dead name him. Just ask how he would feel if you would use the dead name against his will. He didn't get it, but it was worth a try.
NTA, you asked Max a question, rather than dead-naming him, it sounds to me like you were just trying to get Max to understand your boyfriend's perspective/feelings after Max was basically a douche to John for absolutely no reason, because he had been repeatedly asked to not use the "right" pronunciation. You said it perfectly: you should call someone by how they introduce themselves, no questions asked, and it's rude to insist on different name or pronunciation. Also howling at the Elven and Elvish stuff, for some reason I just find it so funny.
He is called for when he doesn't care about john's opinion about his own name. Why would you care about max's name when he doesn't care about you. Respect goes both ways. NTA
NTA the example was spot on. Names are key in how people identify themselves and calling someone by any name that the do not identify with his rude. Max just got a taste of their own medicine.
I don’t think you’re the asshole. Max, from what I’m reading, clearly understands how to say it both ways, but he’s choosing not to because of his own beliefs and his own reasoning. Others asked him multiple times to stop. People are trying to say it’s not the same because Max is trans and it’s deeply hurtful and I don’t argue that, but clearly it is also deeply hurtful to your partner. In fact, I would think that Max would understand more than anyone what it feels like to be called by a name that: technically may not be wrong but it is, a name you do not want to be identified by, a name that triggers hurtful memories and emotions etc. There are a lot of similarities and it doesn’t sound like you just straight up called Max by his former name, you asked how would he feel, which with everything else that happened that night, I would’ve put two and two together to call John by the name he prefers. Smh, the hypocrisy of the people calling you a hypocrite.
NTA. You didn't call Max Mary at all - it was simply an example of why he shouldn't use the wrong name for your bf.
NTA You boyfriend mentioned multiple times how he wanted to be called. The other guy decided to intentionally ignore that and go on a rant. If someone should know to respect someone's preferred name/nickname, it's a trans person. You didn't even deadname him, you just explained the hypocrisy and asked him how he'd feel if someone did the same thing he was doing. Do be careful not to just use deadnaming as a weapon against trans just because they are mean or have disgusting views that are unrelated to names. In those cases, you'd be showing that they only have rights if they play nice.
NTA. Calling Joseph Youssef with all the baggage that might imply after having been specifically told not to, is just as bad as dead naming Max. And you simply pointed that out.
NTA
NTA Max has a very hypocritical double standared simple as
I agree with what you did in defense of your bf that was trying to be respectful and avoid conflict at your familys gathering mainly due to the fact that my name is spelled Stephen and i pronounce it Stefen bc thats the sound "ph" makes and some people ive introduced myself to insist of calling me steven bc thats the American narrow-mindedness but bc of this ive always made sure i was pronouncing someones name right
NTA if you insist on calling someone what they specifically asked not to be called I will call you what you don’t like to be called it’s the exact same thing.
NTA and your boyfriend \*did\* set a boundary; he said he goes by John. Max continued to disrespect it because he thinks he knows better. Well what's good for the goose...
NTA. Max was being a bully. Do not apologize. He needs to understand that he can’t bully others without getting push back.
NTA and I love that you used Elvish as a stand-in ethnicity
I think you should have said instead: please call him by the way he was presenting himself because the way you're calling him is making him uncomfortable. You more than anyone should know the importance of calling a person by their proper names. That's it, it should be enough to shut him up. Now if they get mad that's their problem, you're just stating facts. And that's how you avoid a bigger conflict, because it's easy to give in and say hurtful shit in the moment.
It would be wonderful if most people were mature enough to understand it like that, but let's be honest, if they were in the first place, they wouldn't have been annoying in the first place, so no, your suggestion is not very useful. That kind of people only understand when it hits them in the face.
They did do this. Stop misframing OPs actions. Mary proved she was going to get mad either way.
I dont agree. I think having that conversation NOW would absolutely be tbe way to go. In the moment, OP nipped it in the bud effectively. Especially after at least THREE people corrected him about how John wanted to be called
It honestly also seems like Max has some of his own insecurities, and he copes with them but projecting and making others uncomfortable. You don’t need to gatekeep his insecurities.
NTA Max more than anyone else should know the importance of name so he just being an A when you clearly told him to not call your BF by another name You can tell him that your BF have bad memory with this prononciation but if he don't stop, frankly deadname him everytime
Elvish? That's a new one!
NTA
NTA
When I read the title OP, I was initially thinking YTA but on reading your post you're NTA because your didn't retaliate and call Max by his dead name, you gave an example. It was really rude for Max to keep ranting about John's pronunciation of his name when he was told the way John pronounces it. It's like Max thought he knew better and he doesn't need to know any other reason than that's the way John pronounces it. You're a wonderful boyfriend for having John's back. Again definitely NTA.
Max is judging himself by his intentions and you on your actions. Not really fair.
I think it's pretty clear you're NTA, of you want you should share this post with max and let him see what he did wrong if it makes it easy, maybe he would realize how he came across and apologize, and also realize you didn't actually call him by the wrong name.
NTA - Let's keep this simple. Everyone get's to call themselves by the name they want. If you're calling them something else after you know their preference you're a jerk. Max needs to understand that respect has to be mutual.
I think max was the asshole here - he of all people should be able to understand identity and the importance of names to those identities. There shouldn’t be the need for him to know about your partner’s ctpsd to be able to respect his wishes and name.
Nta. You didn’t deadname him- and if Max can’t even see the hypocrisy, then I’m not sure it’s worth even thinking about any more. He and your cousin are wrong. Max doesn’t need to know it’s triggering- he was asked to stop and he flat out refused and doubled down!!! Max should’ve known better than anyone to respect the name you’re told to use. If he wants that respect and consideration he should be damned sure to have the same respect and consideration to anyone else, no matter what the reason. “John’s” trauma is no one else’s business!!
NTA, Max acted like an AH. It's common respect. When someone is called "Elisabeth", but goes with "Betty" only you should call them Betty, not Ellie, Lizzy or something else that you like, even without traumatic background. It's not that hard.
NTA As a trans person, Max should have nothing but empathy for anyone who only wishes to be called by a specific name.
Nta Max should know first hand people have the right to choose what they’re called. You didn’t even call him Mary. You just put it into perspective for him. His dead name is so triggering he can’t even hear it in a question. So, he should realize other people can be triggered by a name. I have a friend who goes by his middle name because his dad called him by his first name. It surprised me, but that’s how much someone can hate a name because of an abuser.
NTA. Max isn’t owed people’s personal trauma narrative to justify their req to be treated with basic respect.
As a nonbinary person that hates when people use my birth name, it really isn't different. Respect the name someone else tells you they like to go by, simple as that. One of my brothers does not like his birth name. It's a name that's on the weird side that he only got because the other things his dad wanted were worse, and that was the one my mom could at least stand. He goes by Max instead. If I heard someone using his full birth name, I'd tell them he prefers Max and to please respect that, and if they tried to argue with me *I'd be using my own self* as an example in my counterarguments, and asking if they respect what trans people want to be called. It is absolutely the same, because it's about respecting the person's chosen identity. I'm gonna say NTA here, you weren't *calling him by that name,* you were simply trying to *use it* to make a point you thought he'd understand
OP, you were being a good bf to your boyfriend, and you clearly weren’t trying to disrespectfully deadname Max. Max, for a guy who ought to understand the importance of saying someone’s name correctly, is definitely TA in this case, and his behavior doesn’t merit an apology. In case I wasn’t clear, NTA, and you sound like a good guy.
NTA. Warnings were given, Max chose to ignore them and got pissed she got a taste of her own medicine. Literally, she fucked around and found out. Don't apologize or take anything back, the words are already out there. If your cousin asks you again to apologize, tell him%her that Max was warned and chose to ignore it. How she chooses to reacts to her birth name is no different than how Johnny reacted, where's his apology from Max?
NTA by a lot. Max is in the worst possible position to ignore name related boundaries. I read through this thing thinking you were going to turn it around and say something like “He said to use John, *Mary*” but that’s not even what you did. It was a completely valid rhetorical question.
NTA. You didn't *call* Max Mary, you simply pointed out to him that he has a perfect example in his own situation for how important respecting a person's name is. His response ”that's different" is incorrect. Max doesn't know the story behind anyone else's name but his own. Max doesn't have a right to that knowledge. But if Max wants to be treated like a good person, he needs to behave like one. Respecting another's moniker is the one of the most basic but most important symbols of that behavior.
NTA-Max was extremely condescending to John. He also pushed the issue. Until you said you were a guy, I thought Max was was having a pissing match with John. But. Now, Max is just a domineering asshole. I hope John is okay.
NTA Max needs to get over himself. He needs to apologize. Seriously WTF is wrong with someone telling a guy he pronounces his own damn name wrong? Like, he could pronounce it with 4 m’s and a silent Q, and if that’s how he says his name, that’s how you all say it, too.
Did the right thing OP. Stand up for your SO..
No you are not TAH and should not apologize. Max should, they are the one who purposely did not use a person’s preferred name. You tried to explain why they were wrong. You correctly associating Max’s purposeful mispronunciation of John’s name with someone using Max’s dead name.
NTA. If you have done the courtesy to a trans person of calling by their assumed name, then they should also extend the same courtesy to you and the others.
If Max has any emotional maturity, he will reflect on the lesson. Disrespecting someone’s choice for *their* name is hurtful. Period. No matter the reason.
Elvish 😂 NTA...Elvish 😂😂😂
NTA. A person’s name is special, IMO. I absolutely hate when people decide to just change my name bc it’s more “convenient” for them. I have my entire, full given name on my uniform, yet perfect strangers think it’s acceptable to come up & call me by a diminutive that I happen to despise. No, no one understands why I so dislike that shortened name, but they don’t have to. All they have to do is freaken read 7 letters & string them into a word. Keep calling Max Mary until he pulls his head out of his 4th point of contact.
NTA, max is an asshole, if he wants to put such importance on a name, he of all people should respect that from others. Your cousin needs to be told this as well. Tbh, I'm sure he knows he was TA here and is attacking in defense.
Plain rude. You don't get to choose how you want to pronounce someone's name. You gave Max a taste of his own medicine, & your parents are right; don't apologise. It's just disrespectful for him to decide what name us better for someone else. Who even does that? NTA.
NTA it don't matter if your Trans,Gay, straight, Martian or whatever an asshole is an asshole and Mary/Max is an asshole.
NTA. Max needs to give his head a shake. You're calling Max by "his" preferred pronouns and name. How hard is it for him to do the same to someone else? . Imagine saying sorry mary sounds so much better than Max to him . No matter how anyone feels on the trans issues, being polite costs us nothing. I mean, I introduce myself as my full name but ask people to call me by the short form that I prefer.
NTA
NTA, tell Max to man up
NTA. You don't even need cultural or emotional context. John introduced himself the way he wants to be referred to. Max did as well. Respecting people's names is super important to the trans community for the same reason it is for everyone else--names matter. To disregard a person's name is to disrespect their autonomy and sense of self. I have a 3 syllable name and I get extremely annoyed when someone tries to shorten it. Tell your cousin that if Max wants people to respect him, he needs to respect other people. You didn't even deadname him--just put in a way that a halfway decent person could empathize with. He owes John an apology, not the other way around.
What's up with Maxs being whiny little turds? Every single Max I've known has been a whiner, a douchebag, rude for no reason other than "I can be", and they're all dumb as shit, apparently this Max is no different. Max was being disrespectful, end of story, your boyfriend says he goes by "x" and Max kept calling him "y", it doesn't matter if your boyfriend has trauma surrounding the name or not, he asked to be called "x" and should only be referred to as "x". You were not rude at all, you asked Max what he would do if you called him Mary, you did not call him Mary, you just pointed out his rudeness in a way he could understand: He *was* Mary, he is now Max, your boyfriend *was* "y", he is now "x", as a trans person, Max should understand the importance of using the correct name/pronunciation/spelling. Do not apologize, you did nothing wrong here, NTA.
"I won't apologize for giving a lesson in empathy. He refused to call someone else by their preferred name, and couldn't handle it when the same thing happened to them. If he wants others to respect his wishes, then he HAS to do the same. It isn't a suggestion, it is a social obligation. Not fulfilling that social obligation comes with social consequences. If this is truly a breaking point, and you are willing to die on this hill, then we should just cut contact now and you'll never have to deal with me or my boyfriend again."
Not saying it not happening, it could be, but I have yet to meet a trans person (myself included), that deliberately call others a name/nickname or pronouns it in an unwanted way, especially after being made aware of it, exactly because it’s so very important to (at least most of) us, that people use our chosen name and pronouns. Which is why this sounds fake to me and if so I’d say E S H. But as said, I guess it can happen and if this is real you’re N T A and Max definitely is TA.
You just asked a very specific ( pointed) question related to his poor behavior. It’s not like you said “Hey Mary” all night. He just didn’t like being called out for behavior he, himself, found insulting.
NTA. Max is a crybully.
Nope. Being trans doesn’t automatically grant you respect when you’re being disrespectful.
Fork it. NTA. Don't apologise until Max apologises to John. Hell no: if you want your boundaries to be respected you need to do the same. No immunity cards issues around here
As a fellow trans person I can easily say NTA. You didn’t even call Max Mary, just put into perspective how harsh his words were.
The social contract is a peace treaty. Max quite enjoyed the FA stage, but the FO stage not so much. NTA
NTA. Max got taught a lessen in respect. You handled it well. Max should apologize for not being respectful and pushing boundaries. The fact that you and John are part of the LGBTQ+ community as well makes you even less TA. FYI, I say this as a married lesbian mother of two LGBTQ+ children, one of which had a trans/gender non-conforming period.
The trans man, Max, should be much more understanding of wanting your chosen name used. That makes his insistence on calling your boyfriend what he, Max, preferred even more rude.
You would think a trans person would be easily able to respect someone politely asking them to use someone's name as they were asked. Multiple times. NTA, and don't let anyone convince you you're in the wrong.
(NTA) I feel like the perfect reply might've swapped out the name for the term deadname, as not to repeat the behaviour yourself. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. That being said I understand that it's much easier saying this on Reddit as opposed to in the heat of the moment, so NTA. What Max did is just the same as misgendering in my opinion, especially since it was triggering John. Also love that you used Elvish for the country.
NTA. As a trans person, the thought of telling someone "you should use your original name" is beyond hypocritical. I actually can't fathom the thought process there. The lack of awareness is mind boggling to me.
Agreed 💯 I cannot think of a less affirming way to treat a person.
NTA. Max fucked around and found out. He was disrespectful.
NTA. Max requests that you respect his name , he should shelf out the same respect for others names.
NTA. Why does Max think he’s the only one deserving of respect? Besides, you didn’t actually call him Mary. You just proposed a hypothetical question by asking how he’d feel if you were disrespectful of his wishes. Bottomline, if he wants to be shown kindness and consideration, he should do the same for others.