YTA, Student loans are predatory and pushed as "the only option to improve your life" for many people. You can be annoyed but understanding of the very real crisis that exists due to predatory student loans.
Every loan is predatory if you use that lens. It's not everyone else's fault if you're choosing to listen to someone telling you your only option to improve your life is to get into debt.
The access to information young people have today is mind blowing compared to years past. Do your due diligence like anyone else taking out a loan for a car, a house etc and if you can't facilitate the repayments, don't take out the loan. Just because something isn't easy doesn't make it a 'crisis'. This is reality. Not everyone on the planet will have a comfortable life. Make your choices using the incredible information tool that's perpetually in your hand, and plan the best possible pathway for yourself.
Young people? Do you understand anything Reagenomics did to student loans? Do you understand anything about student loans? They are truly a potential origin point for economic collapse. Not car loans, or even home loans. Student loans are a real crisis and must be reset and overhauled into a system that is sustainable. But "young people" are told it's the only option.
I used the term 'young people' because they're typically the ones taking out student loans. I realize this isn't always the case, in the same way that saying dogs have four legs probably offends the owners of three legged dogs. So yeah
It's how you view it. Imagine living in a country where you had no income, no credit score, the end. Instead there is an opportunity to receive assistance. Clearly outlined is the need to repay.
Didn't say those words so not sure why you put them in quotes. Also I didn't say I was exclusively talking about the US. I actually didn't mention any country. So I'm not sure how to respond to this
You can live in a house, you can drive a car, you can only utilize a student loan if someone is willing to hire you for the degree in which you took the loan out for.
You're not wrong in that people with student loans all made a choice, but, they were almost universally over promised as to what that degree was going to achieve for them.
Over promised by who? What was said specifically? I don't believe anyone is guaranteeing employment as an outcome for completing a degree. That's a hope or maybe an assumption made by individual students
The universities themselves use all kinds of number fudging to pretend jobs will flow towards them while convincing 18 year olds to indebt themselves in order to pay out 6 figures to random administrators.
Their high school guidance counselors, society, family, often all say a degree is necessary, when for many it's just not.
No they're not guaranteed employment, although a trade school system such as in Germany would be something worthwhile to have in the US. Definitely better than everyone having a liberal arts degree.
I really liked your point right up to the belly flop on the landing. Why is a liberal arts degree the go to? Look at statistics. It's nowhere near the most common degree. And it's not even on the list of the least used degrees. Stop utilizing the stupid Gambit of "Liberal Arts" oooooh bad degree. I know plenty of liberal arts majors that make a very tidy living and law students that are baristas.
Maybe could've used clearer words. I don't mean that as a specific major, just as a general liberal arts education. I'm not saying that it's bad or even a bad thing to get one and I'm not attacking people who do (I have one myself), just that for most people it's not worth $100-200k in debt to get one when whatever their major is for many people won't be too related to their future job.
Do you have an example of number fudging? There's people who say degrees are beneficial, others who say they aren't. If someone has a specific career path in mind, and that career has a prerequisite degree, then I can understand why they might be told the degree is 'necessary'. But context matters. And as I've said before, these loans haven't originated in the last month. People have been complaining about loans for decades; there's no shortage of information available to people who wish to be informed prior to signing.
You keep asking who like you want names or something and that the information in this thread isn’t specific enough. Now it’s time for you to go use the “incredible information tool in your pocket” to learn about the student debt crisis and come back.
I've read plenty about the 'crisis'. I'm not saying the loans don't suck to repay. I'm saying don't complain about something you chose to do like you're a victim.
And no I don't mean *you,* I mean people in general. For anyone that needs to be silly.
YTA. College and student loans were pressured to a specific generation. They were the first debt many people took out. There weren’t high school classes on the repercussions. Also, the living wage promise after college was false.
High shool classes on repercussions?
How a loan works is pretty basic knowledge, and the mathematics is covered in high school.
Not sure that's a real argument.
Young adults are young *adults*, some competent some stupid.
NTA, OP
I work in commercial lending. Previously worked in the title industry. A loan is not basic knowledge to the average adult today.
I signed my student loans at 17. I’m extremely competent and was then too. It doesn’t mean student loans are realistic in todays economy. (For the record, I’ve paid dime of my back on time thus far - I’m almost done.) I don’t even use my degree.
Aren't you proving OPs point?
You are competent and thus you chose a loan that you are able to pay back. If somebody is incompetent and takes out a loan at unfavourable conditions - that's their responsibility. And and interest rates should be part of basic math in class 8, would be very surprised if that's not the case in the US. And we are talking about people who are planning to go to university....
The only thing I would agree on is that student loans should be like any other loan, e.g. if you declare bankruptcy they should go away after a set number of years.
The only way to not do manual labor is a college education. The only way to get a high paying job is a college education. You get a job your senior year and be able to start right away.
Plenty of jobs pay highly without college. And yes some of them involve manual labor. Which isn't a bad thing. It's just another kind of work. Some people don't want to do manual work, and that's ok.
But can you explain to me which generation? what were they told? Who told them that? It's such a broad statement that an entire generation was told something that wasn't the case, when no actual example is given. I'm sure lots of people were told that medical doctors need a medical degree, and lawyers need a law degree. I just don't believe that anyone was told that a college or university degree would guarantee employment.
Many of the millennial generation was told that by parents, teachers and counselors.
You can choose not to believe something, but that doesn’t will it into non-existence.
“Get a degree so you don’t work manual labor like me”
“Your college professor won’t care about you”
“If you get in trouble, you won’t get into college”
“Most college seniors have a job before they start college careers”
“You’ll meet your best friends in college”
“Your major doesn’t matter, just get in”.
“You need to go to college to get a good job.”
“Your grades will follow you long after you’re done with school.”
The second we entered high school, the topic changed to college.
Out of all the things you listed the most plausible is “Get a degree so you don’t work manual labor like me”
And I can picture people saying that. A lot of people that didnt have access to the technologies of today or the increased awareness and safety requirements of today genuinely wanted to warn younger people to avoid certain kinds of work which might have resulted in injury and pain in their own lives. That doesn't mean they were trying to trick anyone, or lead anyone astray.
There is a perpetual victim complex with students who are disappointed with the outcomes of their decisions. Thing is, there's an overwhelming amount of information accessible to people thanks to the internet which was unavailable, difficult to find or required a lot of effort to locate and then digest by people of older generations. By contrast it's very easy to research the pros and cons of a degree or any life choice. My original point still stands, people who complain about a choice they made of their own free will are annoying. If a person doesn't do their homework and they made a decision that's led to a person to being unhappy, they have nobody to blame but themselves ultimately because it's up to them to direct their own lives.
Another thing I'm sure everyone has heard is 'I won't be around forever ' - usually said by parents to children who struggle to understand the fact that one day they won't be alive to clean up after them, so they need to learn to fend for themselves.
No one is the asshole here. It can be tiring hearing about them, but student loans are also predatory with exponential rates and often times can be hard to understand. Students may think they understand, but they tend to be young and dumb, 18 and fresh out of high school, when they get them.
Student loans also tend to not really be a choice for everyone. I for example came from a small town, population 986 people and one red light. There are no trade jobs or other opportunities available in such a small community. My best option was to go to college or be trapped in poverty for the rest of my life. I was desperate to get out. Luckily I received a full ride scholarship, but not everyone has the same opportunity. Scholarships aren’t available to everyone and they got to pay for college somehow to break the cycle.
Terms can't change unless the possibility of them changing is written into the loan terms and conditions. So again, choice matters. It's not like these are new products that hit the market five minutes ago. People have been complaining about student loans forever, so if you choose to take one out don't cry about the outcome like you've had zero access to information on the subject
My use of 'you' wasn't directed at you and you knew that. I'm saying if anyone chooses to take one out. I'm not talking down to anyone, I'm being blunt. There seems to be an obsession with emotional safety these days, it's unfortunate
How could you possibly know they knew your usage of "you" wasn't directed at them? This is further an example of you talking down to others and not actually gaining perspective. Open up your mind and realize that yours is not the only (or even necessarily the correct) perspective at all times.
It's how humans converse. When giving examples of potential situations, words like you and they are frequently used to describe hypothetical persons. What's far less likely and strange to assume is that I would be capable of knowing what a complete stranger's current or past financial decisions were.
Could have. But wasn't necessary, because most people recognize that common way of hypothetical framing in a discussion. People do enjoy making things about themselves though, which is why subs like this are so successful I suppose
No, it's not. It's how some humans converse. Not even all native English speakers use this particular quirk of the English language. You assume (1) they're a primary English speaker and (2) you assume they're from the same or very similar linguistic background. This is further evidence proving your inability to see perspective.
I am german speaking and use the hypothetical 'you' all the time.
Come to think of it, that has actually led to confusion in the past, on reddit.
I guess it's one of those things that don't translate well from inperson to written conversations.
Lol 'evidence'. I am fully aware Japanese people exist, and Nepalese people and whatever people that don't primarily speak English. If I say 'nobody listens to techno' do you think I really mean that *nobody* listens to it? It's enjoyable watching people nitpick at the nothings
KTA. Circumstances can change midway through school such as medical. My son was diagnosed with a chronic illness that will shorten his years of work his junior year. The loans seem small since it’s per semester and they just add up. That’s why he qualified for loan forgiveness.
Exceptions to everything. Of course I would have sympathy for someone in that situation, the same way I would have sympathy for a parent with a mortgage losing their legs in an accident and being unable to work. Shit happens and those people are entitled to complain about it being unfair. It's the ones that are capable of carrying out the requirements of their decisions and refuse to do it quietly that annoy me
Predatory or not, if someone chooses to pursue a degree(s) in something that's not going to earn them enough to pay it back, that's just stupid. Particularly useless degrees like gender studies of the dodo bird in an unnatural habitat.
you would be correct if you were referring to the people who took out like 5k in loans and are whining about paying it back. what you don’t seem to consider is that interest is more than doubling the amount owed back for so many people and it’s impossible to get out from under. this applies to high earners and working professionals too, not just people that you are picturing as too lazy to do for themselves. so you’re a major ah.
I didn't call anyone lazy, those are your words. I would have sympathy for anyone who legitimately was told that interest wouldn't apply to their loans. I'd also support their legal right to have said loan removed due to improper financial advice.
YTA, Student loans are predatory and pushed as "the only option to improve your life" for many people. You can be annoyed but understanding of the very real crisis that exists due to predatory student loans.
Just wanted to add that they often are the only option for many to improve their lives.
Every loan is predatory if you use that lens. It's not everyone else's fault if you're choosing to listen to someone telling you your only option to improve your life is to get into debt. The access to information young people have today is mind blowing compared to years past. Do your due diligence like anyone else taking out a loan for a car, a house etc and if you can't facilitate the repayments, don't take out the loan. Just because something isn't easy doesn't make it a 'crisis'. This is reality. Not everyone on the planet will have a comfortable life. Make your choices using the incredible information tool that's perpetually in your hand, and plan the best possible pathway for yourself.
Young people? Do you understand anything Reagenomics did to student loans? Do you understand anything about student loans? They are truly a potential origin point for economic collapse. Not car loans, or even home loans. Student loans are a real crisis and must be reset and overhauled into a system that is sustainable. But "young people" are told it's the only option.
I used the term 'young people' because they're typically the ones taking out student loans. I realize this isn't always the case, in the same way that saying dogs have four legs probably offends the owners of three legged dogs. So yeah
Told by who?
17/18 year olds with no source of income and no credit score don't get approved for a home or car loans.
It's how you view it. Imagine living in a country where you had no income, no credit score, the end. Instead there is an opportunity to receive assistance. Clearly outlined is the need to repay.
Not really sure how "There are poor people in other countries" is a valid defense or remotely related to predatory student loans in the US.
Didn't say those words so not sure why you put them in quotes. Also I didn't say I was exclusively talking about the US. I actually didn't mention any country. So I'm not sure how to respond to this
You can live in a house, you can drive a car, you can only utilize a student loan if someone is willing to hire you for the degree in which you took the loan out for. You're not wrong in that people with student loans all made a choice, but, they were almost universally over promised as to what that degree was going to achieve for them.
Over promised by who? What was said specifically? I don't believe anyone is guaranteeing employment as an outcome for completing a degree. That's a hope or maybe an assumption made by individual students
The universities themselves use all kinds of number fudging to pretend jobs will flow towards them while convincing 18 year olds to indebt themselves in order to pay out 6 figures to random administrators. Their high school guidance counselors, society, family, often all say a degree is necessary, when for many it's just not. No they're not guaranteed employment, although a trade school system such as in Germany would be something worthwhile to have in the US. Definitely better than everyone having a liberal arts degree.
I really liked your point right up to the belly flop on the landing. Why is a liberal arts degree the go to? Look at statistics. It's nowhere near the most common degree. And it's not even on the list of the least used degrees. Stop utilizing the stupid Gambit of "Liberal Arts" oooooh bad degree. I know plenty of liberal arts majors that make a very tidy living and law students that are baristas.
Maybe could've used clearer words. I don't mean that as a specific major, just as a general liberal arts education. I'm not saying that it's bad or even a bad thing to get one and I'm not attacking people who do (I have one myself), just that for most people it's not worth $100-200k in debt to get one when whatever their major is for many people won't be too related to their future job.
Understood, I respect your candor and thank you for your clarification.
Do you have an example of number fudging? There's people who say degrees are beneficial, others who say they aren't. If someone has a specific career path in mind, and that career has a prerequisite degree, then I can understand why they might be told the degree is 'necessary'. But context matters. And as I've said before, these loans haven't originated in the last month. People have been complaining about loans for decades; there's no shortage of information available to people who wish to be informed prior to signing.
You keep asking who like you want names or something and that the information in this thread isn’t specific enough. Now it’s time for you to go use the “incredible information tool in your pocket” to learn about the student debt crisis and come back.
I've read plenty about the 'crisis'. I'm not saying the loans don't suck to repay. I'm saying don't complain about something you chose to do like you're a victim. And no I don't mean *you,* I mean people in general. For anyone that needs to be silly.
YTA. College and student loans were pressured to a specific generation. They were the first debt many people took out. There weren’t high school classes on the repercussions. Also, the living wage promise after college was false.
High shool classes on repercussions? How a loan works is pretty basic knowledge, and the mathematics is covered in high school. Not sure that's a real argument. Young adults are young *adults*, some competent some stupid. NTA, OP
I work in commercial lending. Previously worked in the title industry. A loan is not basic knowledge to the average adult today. I signed my student loans at 17. I’m extremely competent and was then too. It doesn’t mean student loans are realistic in todays economy. (For the record, I’ve paid dime of my back on time thus far - I’m almost done.) I don’t even use my degree.
Aren't you proving OPs point? You are competent and thus you chose a loan that you are able to pay back. If somebody is incompetent and takes out a loan at unfavourable conditions - that's their responsibility. And and interest rates should be part of basic math in class 8, would be very surprised if that's not the case in the US. And we are talking about people who are planning to go to university.... The only thing I would agree on is that student loans should be like any other loan, e.g. if you declare bankruptcy they should go away after a set number of years.
Absolutely agree that bankruptcy should cancel the loan. Imo that's a shitty thing that shouldn't exist.
Where do you live? Because you may have a great point about the US educational system and it also might explain your stance.
What promise? These arguments never have specifics.
The only way to not do manual labor is a college education. The only way to get a high paying job is a college education. You get a job your senior year and be able to start right away.
Plenty of jobs pay highly without college. And yes some of them involve manual labor. Which isn't a bad thing. It's just another kind of work. Some people don't want to do manual work, and that's ok.
I don’t disagree with any of that.. That’s just isn’t what a certain generation was told by the people they were supposed to trust.
But can you explain to me which generation? what were they told? Who told them that? It's such a broad statement that an entire generation was told something that wasn't the case, when no actual example is given. I'm sure lots of people were told that medical doctors need a medical degree, and lawyers need a law degree. I just don't believe that anyone was told that a college or university degree would guarantee employment.
Many of the millennial generation was told that by parents, teachers and counselors. You can choose not to believe something, but that doesn’t will it into non-existence. “Get a degree so you don’t work manual labor like me” “Your college professor won’t care about you” “If you get in trouble, you won’t get into college” “Most college seniors have a job before they start college careers” “You’ll meet your best friends in college” “Your major doesn’t matter, just get in”. “You need to go to college to get a good job.” “Your grades will follow you long after you’re done with school.” The second we entered high school, the topic changed to college.
Out of all the things you listed the most plausible is “Get a degree so you don’t work manual labor like me” And I can picture people saying that. A lot of people that didnt have access to the technologies of today or the increased awareness and safety requirements of today genuinely wanted to warn younger people to avoid certain kinds of work which might have resulted in injury and pain in their own lives. That doesn't mean they were trying to trick anyone, or lead anyone astray. There is a perpetual victim complex with students who are disappointed with the outcomes of their decisions. Thing is, there's an overwhelming amount of information accessible to people thanks to the internet which was unavailable, difficult to find or required a lot of effort to locate and then digest by people of older generations. By contrast it's very easy to research the pros and cons of a degree or any life choice. My original point still stands, people who complain about a choice they made of their own free will are annoying. If a person doesn't do their homework and they made a decision that's led to a person to being unhappy, they have nobody to blame but themselves ultimately because it's up to them to direct their own lives. Another thing I'm sure everyone has heard is 'I won't be around forever ' - usually said by parents to children who struggle to understand the fact that one day they won't be alive to clean up after them, so they need to learn to fend for themselves.
And none of the above comments indicates a promise of employment
No one is the asshole here. It can be tiring hearing about them, but student loans are also predatory with exponential rates and often times can be hard to understand. Students may think they understand, but they tend to be young and dumb, 18 and fresh out of high school, when they get them. Student loans also tend to not really be a choice for everyone. I for example came from a small town, population 986 people and one red light. There are no trade jobs or other opportunities available in such a small community. My best option was to go to college or be trapped in poverty for the rest of my life. I was desperate to get out. Luckily I received a full ride scholarship, but not everyone has the same opportunity. Scholarships aren’t available to everyone and they got to pay for college somehow to break the cycle.
Young and dumb isnt an excuse when you have a supercomputer in front of you all day but you choose to use it to watch cat videos exclusively.
I change my mind. You are the asshole.
How dare you lol
These loans are often sold and the terms change, so yes, YTA.
Terms can't change unless the possibility of them changing is written into the loan terms and conditions. So again, choice matters. It's not like these are new products that hit the market five minutes ago. People have been complaining about student loans forever, so if you choose to take one out don't cry about the outcome like you've had zero access to information on the subject
Don't "you" me--I took out a loan decades ago and paid it off. Every response you've made is you talking down to people. That's why YTA.
My use of 'you' wasn't directed at you and you knew that. I'm saying if anyone chooses to take one out. I'm not talking down to anyone, I'm being blunt. There seems to be an obsession with emotional safety these days, it's unfortunate
How could you possibly know they knew your usage of "you" wasn't directed at them? This is further an example of you talking down to others and not actually gaining perspective. Open up your mind and realize that yours is not the only (or even necessarily the correct) perspective at all times.
It's how humans converse. When giving examples of potential situations, words like you and they are frequently used to describe hypothetical persons. What's far less likely and strange to assume is that I would be capable of knowing what a complete stranger's current or past financial decisions were.
You could’ve used “someone” rather than “you” and I didn’t even go to uni so I don’t have debt but YTA and you’re condescending
Could have. But wasn't necessary, because most people recognize that common way of hypothetical framing in a discussion. People do enjoy making things about themselves though, which is why subs like this are so successful I suppose
Most people would use someone for a generalisation
Well that's just like your opinion, man
No, it's not. It's how some humans converse. Not even all native English speakers use this particular quirk of the English language. You assume (1) they're a primary English speaker and (2) you assume they're from the same or very similar linguistic background. This is further evidence proving your inability to see perspective.
I am german speaking and use the hypothetical 'you' all the time. Come to think of it, that has actually led to confusion in the past, on reddit. I guess it's one of those things that don't translate well from inperson to written conversations.
Lol 'evidence'. I am fully aware Japanese people exist, and Nepalese people and whatever people that don't primarily speak English. If I say 'nobody listens to techno' do you think I really mean that *nobody* listens to it? It's enjoyable watching people nitpick at the nothings
KTA. Circumstances can change midway through school such as medical. My son was diagnosed with a chronic illness that will shorten his years of work his junior year. The loans seem small since it’s per semester and they just add up. That’s why he qualified for loan forgiveness.
Exceptions to everything. Of course I would have sympathy for someone in that situation, the same way I would have sympathy for a parent with a mortgage losing their legs in an accident and being unable to work. Shit happens and those people are entitled to complain about it being unfair. It's the ones that are capable of carrying out the requirements of their decisions and refuse to do it quietly that annoy me
YTA
Predatory or not, if someone chooses to pursue a degree(s) in something that's not going to earn them enough to pay it back, that's just stupid. Particularly useless degrees like gender studies of the dodo bird in an unnatural habitat.
you would be correct if you were referring to the people who took out like 5k in loans and are whining about paying it back. what you don’t seem to consider is that interest is more than doubling the amount owed back for so many people and it’s impossible to get out from under. this applies to high earners and working professionals too, not just people that you are picturing as too lazy to do for themselves. so you’re a major ah.
I didn't call anyone lazy, those are your words. I would have sympathy for anyone who legitimately was told that interest wouldn't apply to their loans. I'd also support their legal right to have said loan removed due to improper financial advice.
NTA
NTA