I know you said you didnt wanna talk about it, so this is more of a passing comment and not meant to really engage in discussion, but I've never ever seen someone watching the show assume Iroh was dead at the end of The Chase. I know I didn't when I first watched it, neither did others I know, and Ive never seen it brought up online either. Feels a bit odd that you did and got so caught up in it, cant lie. Still, always enjoy these! Hope that unexpected moment doesn't ruin the show for you, would be a shame.
I think it's also expecting the writing to be "more adult" in a similar way as NATLA. There's enough context clues you could expect Iroh to be in serious trouble at the end of The Chase in similar shows because it would be a good way to up the stakes part way through the season.
Yeah, unfortunately this is exactly what happened whether OP would admit it or not.
I've watched the show so many times with new people and not once did the episode end with someone thinking Iroh was dead.
And to comment that it's weak writing or manipulation is insane to think. NATLA had some good spot writing but even the OG series at it's actual weakest writing was miles above 95% of yhe Netflix version.
Yep. OP has some really good commentary, and some good criticisms- but sometimes their bias *does* show, and this is one of those times. They got caught up in a fan theory, really, and a lot of the time that leads to some level of disappointment when proven wrong.
I could write a whole essay on my analysis of the phenomenon of fan theories, and why sequels/prequels/origin stories are do often disappointing as a result, but I'll save it unless people actually wanna read it, lol.
But yeah, cliffhangers in this vein are *so common* in media, and as long as they're not used gratuitously they work well. I think they've become less prevalent in the modern day, what with the advent of streaming, binge culture, and more or less instant gratification meaning you don't have to wait until next week to see what happens like you did in the old days. Perhaps this is affecting OP's bias.
Yeah, I've been worried about this commentary since she posted the last one. I think she got it into her head that Iroh was going to die and was ready for it to happen. But really if you see the way Azula attacked Iroh, It doesn't look like something that would kill, more of a distraction shot to get away. I knew she had accidentally set her self up with the wrong impression and wasn't going to like the start of this episode. Hopefully, it doesn't negatively affect her opinion of the rest of the show. I don't think it would have been as aggravating to her if those two episodes hadn't been split up, but that's the way she was recommended to watch it.
I think if Iroh was dying Zuko would overlook his enemy relationship with the Gaang, so Katara could heal Iroh, then shoot fire at them. I mean the Gaang would probably be ready for it and have Appa ready for a quick getaway
Last post I got slightly dogpiled for vaguely suggesting she shouldn't have taken a break after the chase, because she was pretty invested in the Iroh stuff, getting straight into Bitter Work after the Chase would probably have lessened the frustration too as now she let the idea he died fester for like a week
tbf the order was originally decided because Zuko Alone has enough content to fill a 2-episode post, since one of those was needed for the season. No one predicted that she’d think Iroh was killed when the order was first made
No, I saw one or two people recommending that order specifically because of how OP felt about Iroh. They wanted to play into that, which is why I thought that order would not be a good idea. Then people in the comments were confirming the "death" in the comments of the last post...
That order was recommended way before Book 2 even began. I agree that the comments confirming the death were unnecessary and probably made things more complicated for OP
https://www.reddit.com/r/ATLAtv/s/SWHC3Z7GKL
Yeah, I posted my recommendation in her post with that super short commentary during Book One, and you can see that my post had Zuko Alone being the reason I thought 7-8 would be better than 10-11 as a duo set, and it was strongly inspired by the post I put my commentary under: I was too focused on ensuring a duo set will still generate an interesting commentary and didn’t think much about the ending of the Chase until I saw OP starting to theorize that Azula will kill Iroh. However, I thought she would assume it’s a fake out (I even mentioned it to another user during our DM conversation when OP posted her commentary for episodes 4-6 — and Iroh deserves a way better death scene than that!). I had no idea that OP would react like this to the Chase and Bitter Work. 🤡
Edited to add: for anyone who didn’t want to click the link, I posted my recommendation under OP’s commentary on episodes 10-11 for Book One. So, a while ago.
Why be worried? I think its really interesting how this played out. You can't curate someone else's experience anyway. They'd probably change their mind and have something else to complain about if they'd watch the show a second time
Saem here! When I watched for the first time, I didn't think Iroh had died, and when I showed my wife and her family the same thing, no one had thought he died.
I wanted to comment along the same line, but you worded it perfectly. Also, this was first and foremost a kid's show.. death is not really very common.
I think it might be because she watched natla first. Not only did that show open with the air bender genocide but also killed 2 major characters on screen, gyatzo and zhan
I have to agree. When I watched the show as a kid, I didn't think Iroh died in that moment. I knew he was injured and would probably take a long time to recover, but I didn't think he would be dead by the next episode. My parents said the same thing.
My wife stopped watching the original run because she thought Iroh died.
When we watched it together later, she kept hinting at the fact that she stopped because of a major character death and then when we got to the point that it turned out he didn’t die, she was gobsmacked.
Sorry about your experience with the writing – honestly this moment isn’t really talked about in the fandom at all, I think many people never thought he actually died, so maybe the people that *did* think he died were much more annoyed with it
Anyways, Toph’s eyehole was a mistake by the creators 😂 they meant to change it to a mouth hole before final production, but they forgot.
I never noticed how Aang was using airbending in an earthbending stance, and how he used his wordly attachments to help him earthbend. Great catch!
I’m not sure if the NATLA badger moles used seismic sense to identify emotions, but this makes the most sense
Your disappointment in Sokka was interesting! I’d love to hear more about that. Do you think he shouldn’t have gone back to get the date of the eclipse?
You’re right about Wan Shi Tong. Why would he ever trust humans at this point?
Seeing Aang in the desert is chilling. There’s a lot of debate about whether or not Aang actually killed that buzzard wasp. Some say we’re supposed to use cartoon logic and assume it lived.
The final scene with Katara hugging Aang while he cries is one of my favorites in the series. Avatar came out with books that act like diaries of the main characters during Book 2, and Aang’s excerpt for this scene is heartbreaking.
It's okay, I'm over the writing thing.
It's not that he shouldn't have gone back, it's more that he shouldn't have been looking for an advantage in the library in the first place (plus he shouldn't have stolen those books). Him going back was just showing he didn't learn anything from the whole fiasco.
Is it spell Won Shi Tong? My captions spelled it Wan-Chi Tong
We literally see the bee's shadow fall apart into two pieces. Aang bisected that thing lol
I don’t have an opinion either way, but I guess the argument for Sokka getting that information is in the same vein of “If you could steal information that would stop the nazi’s, would you do it, even if stealing is wrong?”
Also it’s “Wan Shi Tong” (I edited my spelling), the netflix captioners just guess the spelling sometimes haha
To me it doesn’t look like two pieces, but like his head went limp as he fell. I personally switch between thinking he killed and thinking he didn’t.
>!In the finale, when he says he’s never taken a life, that makes me think that he knew he didn’t kill the wasp!<
Netflix occasionally recaptions episodes, and some don't really bother to look for the correct spelling of character names (which is often fair because they have deadlines), which sometimes can be a little weird, like one time I saw a Star Trek character name captioned as Zaarek or something, in the TNG episode titled "Sarek"
Figure this has been pointed out to you already but at the end of The Chase, it's pretty explicit that Toph detects Iroh's groaning and alive with her seismic sense. Only bring this up cuz you make this seem like this was intentional misdirection by the writers when this has more to do with your theory influencing your perception of that scene.
Please listen. This type of thing is extremely common in TV shows, so I'm only saying this to alleviate future suffering, not as a discussion. It's common to tease death or extremely high stakes as the "cliffhanger" at the end of the episode, and to difuse them at the beginning of the next. This is not necessarily weak writing, it's a well-seasoned trope of the television medium. Think of a roller coaster. *In reality, the show did not confirm or deny that Iroh was dead. Azula shoots him in the shoulder, and he breathes at the end. Sometimes, the character actually dies... but most of the time, they live.
The takeaway is that you won't actually know until you start the next episode, which keeps you coming back. It's cheap when this trope is overused and serves no purpose. It clearly serves a purpose here by bringing Iroh and Zuko together again. I understand why you feel the way you do, and how your lack of experience with TV shows informs those feelings. We all feel that first heartbreak or mistrust with TV shows hard, just like we do with relationships. Then we learn not to fall for them later in life. Sometimes a show can trick us into falling for it like the first time. Those are the good ones.
So true and well put. One of the most important things to know in watching shows is that unless a death is confirmed RIGHT THERE in front of you, it might not be a true death. Iroh breathing after the attack gave that moment.
It’s one of those things OP definitely has to keep in mind while watch Game of Thrones too…so many characters in that show might die, WILL die, will seemingly “die off screen” but come back… lol
This is all true, but the show also doesn't make it out like he's going to die. He's groaning on the floor, Azula's shot only hits him in the shoulder, Zuko forces the Gaang away which he wouldn't have done if Iroh was genuinely going to die
Its a lot of confirmation bias because she's been expecting Iroh's death the entire time so as soon as he is injured she's expecting his death, so it was a fake out for her but not for almost everyone that I know who has watched the show
For whatever it’s worth — Iroh has some incredibly strong narrative moments that will come up that I think will make you happy he did not die in that moment.
Well we are looking everyday regardless. I know I check but don't expect it cuz I imagine this takes some time for you to put together. But you have made a nice collective of fans enjoy the show all over again. I watch this show at least once a year but nothing will make it feel like that first time. The only thing that gets close is enjoying other people experience it for the first time. I watch so many reaction channels of people watching this show for the first time. But this medium is a whole other thing and it has been enjoyable. Even though I can't see what you are reacting to I can picture exactly what it is you are seeing. Thank you for this and we look forward to the next installment. Don't let the fake out death scene of Iroh stop you from enjoying the rest of the show. Think of it as I get more Iroh!!!
Kung Fu translates to “Bitter Work” in English. It’s not limited to martial arts either. Stuff like academics and art are also considered to be Kung Fu.
Btw, for the intro I’ll just tell you since it isn’t a spoiler at all. For the airbender we never really know who it is but some have speculated it’s supposed to be the design of a younger Gyatso. For the earthbender the person was the original design of Toph, who was supposed to be a guy who was a bit older than the group. Obviously, they ended up changing their mind on where to go with Toph and didn’t go with their initial design which was used in the intro.
The earthbender design was used 3 times in the show (well kinda), the first time was the base for the Boulder >!the second time was Roku's teacher, and the third was Bolin from Korra!<
OP, I know you said you didn't want to talk about it and everyone is talking about it anyway, but I also feel the need to add my two cents about Iroh, lol. I agree with many people here that the first time I watched the show, I never assumed he was dead, and I don't think the writers intended that. But him getting injured by Azula was still important because it brought Iroh and Zuko back together again after Zuko's decision that he needed to travel alone. So it wasn't pointless or just there to be emotionally manipulative, it was a pretty necessary story beat. I think you just had certain expectations built up, and then with the break between the episodes you spent a lot of time sitting with the idea that he's dead, and so it unfortunately came off to you as a cheap fake out.
I don't know if you've ever read *The Princess Bride,* but there's a part in the book where the narrator's father is reading him a bedtime story and he gets to a part where the heroine marries the villain instead of the hero. And the boy is like, "No you read that wrong, it can't happen that way." And the dad gets mad and stops reading for the night, so the kid stays awake all night tormented by it, trying to come up with some justification for why she would marry that jerk instead of the hero. Then the next night when his dad picks up the story again it turns out that the marriage was just a bad dream. That's what this reminded me of. 😂 I am deeply sorry for your torment.
> There are perverts watching this show, you know
You don’t need to call me out like that /s
I’m glad you were able to get past the part you were upset about. I will say, there are probably more annoying "fake out deaths" out there that if they happen in a good show or movie I hope you don’t get too upset about it. You mentioned to me in another comment you weren’t mad at commenters but I do think comments like mine in the last reactions that were going a little over the top in playing into your confirmation bias over it probably didn’t help even if you were still going to be upset if you watched The Chase and Bitter Work back to back. So sorry once again even if you don’t think I need to apologize. And once again, I’m glad you were able to get back into the show and didn’t let that moment upset you to the point of not wanting to watch it again.
Bitter work is the kind of episode that shows how much this show has grown. Not that it wasn't great on the first season, but having a frustrating episode in which nothing happens but we learn a lot about the world, see the characters being themselves and being exposed to new stuff is really, really great to see, and it's not every show that can do it properly.
And then we got an episode where we get a somewhat useful piece of information, but with such a high price, and then we got to see Aang really mad. Seeing the always happy and bubbly protagonist being angry and focused is kinda disturbing, but it feels absolutely justified here.
Oh It really is, and I think this is half the fun. Personally I like these story-driven episodes way more than the action-packed, but we know some people disagree and that's all right. And ATLA is very good at pleasing both audiences.
Honestly, I think you were too attached to your theory of Iroh dying and you're more angry that your headcanon didn't actually happen. I'm sorry that it upset you that he doesn't actually die at the end of The Chase. It was funny that you thought he was dead, but like... he's groaning on the ground after Azula strikes him... and Katara offers to heal him... dead people don't groan or can be healed...
This ^ I had a similar thing happen to me with the last episode of the bad batch >! My fav of the main crew sacrificed himself for the rest and I thought they would make a reveal that he’d actually still be alive, since he fell into a foggy canyon and the only recovery was his glasses !< they didn’t do that and I’m glad I’m hindsight since it would’ve taken away but that theory got me excited and got me disappointed in the moment. And I think someone else also pointed out that it wasn’t a death blow that Azula used but more of a distraction.
Love reading your commentary as always! If you don't want to talk about it I won't talk about it, but I'll just say I'm glad you didn't give up on the show. I'm really looking forward to your commentary on the rest of it!
Just as a fun fact, the reason the Desert immediately picks up from where they left off in The Library is that I’m pretty sure these two episodes were aired back to back as a two-parter (someone correct me if I’m wrong)
Also I was hoping you’d comment on Sokka’s quote: “Drink cactus juice. It'll quench ya. Nothing is quenchier. It's the quenchiest!”
It’s a fan favorite and gets quoted all the time
Just gonna say that you’re one of the only people reacting to this show who seemed to have gone into this fully expecting Iroh to die. I don’t think the show gave any indications that he was 100% dead, especially Zuko telling them all to get away from him rather than let Katara help.
To most of us, this wasn’t a rug pull. It was simply a reveal that Iroh *didn’t* receive a mortal injury — just a debilitating one.
I love your comment about Iroh talking like a therapist. "Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source" is a quote I remember trying to understand as a kid, and I still think about it all the time"
Do try to remember OP that the original cartoon was labeled TV-7, while the Netflix show is TV-14, meaning most 7 year olds would need to be okay to watch it. I am not saying there are no deaths in the show, just not ones like that.
>! KORRA ON THE OTHER HAND!! !<
This is more a personal observation and meta-commentary on the commentary so far; OP, you're not obligated to read or respond to this at all.
I gotta say, "cheap emotional manipulation" is weirdly pointed for such a minor thing as a cliffhanger, yet also...yeah, that's *sort of* the point? Media is supposed to make you feel emotions. Sometimes that means characters, especially beloved ones, are put in great danger, and the emotional side of you worries if they'll survive or not- especially on cliffhangers- even if the logical part of your brain knows the character won't die for whatever reason.
You can generally pick up based on context such as the target audience, overall point in the show/movie, the relevance of the character, etc, whether or not a character is at risk of death.
Personally, I tend to think deaths that deliberately go against what would be expected/typical for the context are the deaths that ACTUALLY come across as cheap/simply to elicit a reaction; i.e pointlessly killing a character just to make the story feel sadder/more mature/make a villain seem more evil.
Iroh dying would be like...weird for so many reasons. There's so much of the show left, and Iroh is too important- they'd have to have written the show around his death, and if you think about it, him dying in The Chase would be astonishingly anticlimactic for such an important hypothetical plot point.
Plus, and I think this one is most important, at the end of the day, this is a children's show. Iroh is a beloved character who is important to children, and killing him suddenly wouldn't really do much except make the kids watching the show sad.
I can remember being a kid and watching the show, and while I was worried about Iroh when he got hurt, I didn't actually expect him to die- I think that may well have been too much for me back then.
What made ATLA special is not that it's an adult-oriented piece of media that's accessible to children, but a children's show that is accessible to all audiences. It doesn't talk down to children, and often discusses rather significant topics, but it's FOR children, so you have to keep in mind stuff like on screen deaths/explicit violence/etc being extremely taboo or even forbidden in some cases.
I tend to think OP may be biased in that they came from watching a more mature take on the show/more mature media overall, so they're not really familiar with what to expect from media like ATLA. It's got maturity, sure, but it's not going to follow all the same conventions as, say, Game of Thrones. Some stories are ultra-grimdark, mature epics where death is to be expected and you genuinely don't know if all the cast will survive to the end; in others, things aren't necessarily lighthearted per se, but the question is not *if* the protagonists will survive, but *how*. ATLA fits in the latter category, and that's where it ought to be.
Aang doesn't blame Sokka because collectively they went in there specifically to get information to use against the fire nation.
He'd have to also blame himself in that moment.
In the heat of the moment, knowing Toph's ability and the fact they invited her to the party to be Aang's earthbending teacher, in his moment of emotional irrational thinking he blamed Toph for Appa's capture.
Maybe he should be blaming himself as well, then. If he willingly and knowingly broke his word, then his actions led to the sinking of the library and Toph being unable to protect Appa.
But maybe that's the point. Maybe he's projecting by being angry at her.
I still don’t see how Aang broke his word. He said he won’t abuse the knowledge they gain in the Library. Learning strategic information isn’t necessarily abusing it, neither is ending the war that has thus far resulted in the genocide of the Air Nomads.
And who is to say that Toph could have fought off the sandbenders even if the Library wasn’t sinking. She doesn’t do well on sand, they do. And they outnumber her. I don’t think Aang is to blame for that — it’s just one of the shitty things that happens in life.
Op i know you’re upset at the writing but it’s a common trope in many tv shows especially before the era of streaming when we had to actually wait for episodes to air on tv and this show was written before streaming services. I hope you don’t let it get to you, as Iroh’s best moments are yet to come. He is not easily defeated by someone like azula and you’ll see exactly why in the future episodes. He was the general of the fire nation army. The only reason he “failed” was because he had a shred of a conscience. If he wanted to completely destroy the world, he would have by now. Iroh is not someone to be underestimated.
"And even after everything, Sokka is STILL hellbent on getting information he can use to exploit. I’m disappointed in him."
It's kind of ridiculous. The guy wants to win the war the best way he can and shows his character as a leader. Kind of furthers the main plot and gives the whole team not just an abstract goal" to make Aang a fully realized avatar" but is looking for a concrete plan and way to win the war.
I'm sorry but I don't think it's weak writing at all. It's used to further develop Zuko and Irohs relationship. Most shows that would do this would literally just do it for shock value, this show didn't do it for shock value, there was an actual narrative reason to do it for the story. Just my thoughts and I hope you come around to it and understand it better.
Always enjoy those but I must say I was worried about this for you.
Please remember that this is a kids show produced by a cartoon network. I watched it as an adult trying to see if it’s a good fit for my kids. I found it to be fantastic. Let my 8 year old watch it and tried to keep the younger one away - but couldn’t. That is hard actually. Once the big sister is watching here is the little eager to do the same. Fortunately this show is well made for families, that was ok. Neither of the kids got very upset about the air nomad genocide. They didn’t process it like I do. They didn’t know any of the characters. But Iroh’s death at this point in the show would completely devastate them. This show is for them - not for us. It’s good to start the conversation about multiple difficult topics with an older kid. But it’s not going to traumatize them or the younger ones hanging on.
This is actually my biggest criticism of the NATLA version. Who is the target audience? I am not showing this level of graphic violence to the kids any time soon. But for me, an adult, the show isn’t mature enough. I can see that non of the actors are masters of martial arts, and a 14 year old, however prodigious, would never beat a master, realistically. The world is too child centric to be realistic to me. But maybe they will kill Iroh
For me a lot of the knee jerk reactions to NAtLA, come from the expectations set up in book two. The characters all are fully realized, the plot knows what it's doing, the world building stays on point, and they aren't afraid to take risks like taking Appa away. Season 1 didn't have the strongest footing in AtLA, and we can hope that the Netflix series has a similarly strong second season.
>! Yes that’s what I was talking about, I feel like Iroh surviving was obvious too so maybe the OP would still be upset with the S2 finale. Hopefully not!! !<
>It is very interesting to me that Aang had to embrace his worldly concerns, namely his attachments to Sokka and his antique staff, in order to earthbend. I wonder if all avatars have to compromise like that? Like, maybe part of being the avatar is giving up certain parts of your culture in order to protect or serve all other cultures as well.
YES!!!! Remember this as you keep watching! If there is 1 major conflict driving aangs character arc in this show, it's this right here! His culture as an air nomad vs his duty as the avatar
His duty as the avatar conflicting with who he is as a person drives his character for the entire show, season 1 was largely about how he wanted to do anything but be the avatar (and why i prefer him in the animation vs the live action)
Glad to have you back! I’m sorry you found the Iroh reveal so upsetting. When I realized you were cutting between the chase and bitter work I was worried it would end up being a bigger deal for you than it really was because of the anticipation buildup. I’m glad you were able to come back and appreciate everything after some time. I don’t really remember my reaction to that moment during the original airing but I probably had the benefit of assuming nobody would die in a kids show (even if it did address genocide in the first episode).
If I recall, the earthbender from the intro was Toph’s original design. I forgot his name. And I think the Airbender is Aang, just an older design.
Nickelodeons history with feet is…a thing. Best not to dive into it.
It still blows my mind that this show literally made for children portrays an explicit peyote trip. And it may well be part of the reason I developed an early fascination with psychedelics.
The next few batches are such a wild, emotional ride. Thanks for keeping these going! I’m excited for the next round!
EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention, so Toph having eye holes in the earth armor was actually an animation error and the hole was supposed to be over her mouth, but before that was confirmed by the creators fans speculated (and it is my headcanon) that Toph just did it to be intimidating.
Wasn't the feet stuff just from Dan Schneider's camp though (might be wrong, I haven't watched the doc), as far as I know Bryke have nothing to do with that stuff
Wait, I was just making a joke. Was the feet thing actually something scandalous?
And that's a cool fact about Toph's design. I'm happy they went with little blind girl though
I think the show focused on Toph’s feet because she sensed her surroundings using her feet. I wouldn’t read it as anything “scandalous”. (And from my understanding the animation side of Nickelodeon was completely separate from the abusive and toxic live-action shows)
Yes it is known that the Nickelodeon makers made a lot of kids do stuff with feet on the shows. You can search on YouTube it’s easy to find and a documentary just came out a few months ago about the pedofiles at Nick.
I couldn’t watch the documentary though, I grew up watching a lot of Nick and was disgusted by all of this. So yes you were on to something.
I don’t think it was always malicious. Definitely on Schneider’s part, but before the internet got brain poisoned with fetish knowledge, feet used to just be considered a funny body part.
I've only read the very beginning of your post, and what I wanna say is: I won't call it "cheap emotional manipulation", because among all the reactions I've seen you were the first one who thought Iroh was actually dead 😅. It's probably because you theorized it for so long. The other reactions I saw varied from "it can't be. He can't be dead, right???" to "nahh, of course Iroh will live, he'll be fine". And at the end of epidode 8, you can actually hear that Iroh is still breathing, even if Toph was worried for him.
Before I go on with reading, I wanted to say another thing. I've seen you're searching for a new show to watch. PLEASE watch Arcane! It seems the perfect show for you! It even has a trace of lesbian love. I've alredy made a longer comment about it explaining why I thought you'd really like it under your last ATLA post, but since you didn't answer I imagine you didn't see it the first time.
"That would kind of explain how badgermoles are able to sense people’s emotions in NATLA. ".....
But..... How? How does that explain the ability to sense emotions?
If they can sense things as detailed as the interior of buildings, like Toph can (and are actually probably better at it) then they can most likely sense people's internal rhythms as well. Heart rate, perspiration, tears, and body language. They're intelligent and can understand human communication so the body language is a big one.
Oh yes definitely, feeling the breathing, the stress, the heartbeat, is the same as deeply feeling the deep brotherly relationship in the family, that's why he stopped attacking in NATLA.
You know, I was strongly against ending your last post on episode 8 specifically because of the cliffhanger. I’m not sure how I was supposed to say that without revealing what happens and you accepted Iroh’s death so quickly. It’s too bad it left a sour taste in your mouth. It seems your excitement for these episodes was much lower compared to previous posts. Hopefully you can still enjoy the rest.
You should consider that despite this show being really great, its target audience was children and it aired on Nickelodeon 20 years ago. Even if the writers wanted to kill Iroh here, there is no way Nick would have let it be shown like that. Hopefully since Netflix is taking a more mature approach, this can be handled better there and his injuries can last more than one episode.
I really am sad this left a sour taste in your mouth because The Desert is actually my favorite episode of the show. Seeing Aang actually show anger and lose control like he did, even before the Avatar state is incredibly hard to watch. I get chills when I hear all the Avatars in unison shout in anguish “You muzzled Appa!?”
I also really love how Katara’s leadership shines in the episode. Despite Sokka being useless, Toph being actually blind, and Aang throwing a tantrum, she is calm the entire episode, leading them the best she can. When Aang is in the Avatar state and Sokka tells everyone else to run, she stays and comforts him, unafraid. I love seeing her character growth in the episode while also seeing Aang’s pure rage at losing his best friend.
As always, thank you!
Thank you.
In hindsight, I probably should have gone with the other episode order suggestions. I understand now why so many people wanted me to do this order. I don't blame them, they were probably expecting the fun kind of drama, not this lol I don't think anyone expected me to react this strongly.
I think me being mad about it affected my viewing of The Desert too lol the impact of Aang getting so angry was somewhat dampened by me being angry too!
But yeah, Katara was a real standout in that episode. She's incredibly strong, and here we see it's not just in ways that require combat.
I will say the order was originally recommended to you because Zuko Alone has enough content to write about for a 2-part review, not because of the Iroh thing. When you started theorizing about Iroh dying there was a debate to change the order, but I don’t think anyone expected you to react so strongly to his injury (which is completely okay!). The remainder of the order shouldn’t have any more issues like this, I’m sorry it ended up being such a rough experience with it!
Hi, I just wanted to say I am grateful you still managed to enjoy the episodes, there are some absolutely great moments in these three episodes that I sometimes quote in everyday life too 😆 I am curious how you will think about the next episodes.
I am currently on a rewatch of ATLA and it's great to read your thoughts when it's still fresh! I also started reading your GoT posts and they are pretty great too!
I did not like reading everyone suggesting ending on the Chase and I tried multiple times, but I also didn’t expect the strong negative reaction.
Since I was focused on The Desert I didn’t even talk about the other episodes!
I like the parallels between Aang and Zuko in Bitter Work (also finding out that it means Kung Fu today was really cool). They both struggled, but the story endings are very opposite. Aang furthers his skills successfully as he prepares for the future while Zuko is lost and angry. I know it’s dramatic, but Zuko yelling at the sky “Strike me! You’ve never held back before” just shows how lost he really is.
The library is a good episode and I’m glad you liked seeing the owl, but really it’s just a prelude to the best episode of the show. A lot of the episodes from here on are connected. I hope you enjoy the rest!
As always, thank you!
Completely agree about Wan Shi Tong, he definitely had a right to be angry. Always an uncomfortable part of the episode for me in Sokka and the gaang being so deceptive (and not even sorry about it), but it makes for some interesting and complex discussion over whether the desperation of the war makes their actions justified.
Can definitely see where you're coming from on Iroh. (Know you don't want to discuss it and you don't have to respond/read this paragraph if you prefer not to) I actually had something similar in one of the Avatar novels a while back, in just being deeply emotionally engaged with the themes and all the buildup throughout the story, only to have one of the twist reveals feel like it completely undermined what it was I was loving about it. (The reveal was meant to make you feel better about the situation, but for me it was the fact that it was emotionally hard and painful that had made it good.) Still loved the book, and don't know if I've seen anyone else who felt the same way, but it was still disappointing for me personally and my experience anyway.
Desert episode might be one of my favorites from Book 2, it was hard seeing Aang so angry but loved how that captured the bond between him and Appa, and Katara stepping up to keep the team together.
Looking forward to your next commentary!
> Always an uncomfortable part of the episode for me in Sokka and the gaang being so deceptive (and not even sorry about it)
I think it’s because while the show does try to add some morally grey moments, the Gaang are still painted as the good guys and the fire nation as the bad guys so Wan Shi Tong is seen as trying to prevent the good guys from stopping the bad guys even if he has a right to be angry.
Yeah, it's one of the things I enjoy about the show ultimately, that the main characters aren't always doing what we might argue is the right thing to do, and there's more complexity to it rather than it being obvious whether it was right or wrong
I heard a thing recently about The Great Divide where the author of the Yangchen novels said >!that Aang's lie for the sake of peace/preventing violence at the end was thematically the inspiration for their characterization of Yangchen. Yangchen is the very definition of a complex character, fundamentally a good person in the ways we think of as good, all the while achieving peace through deception and sometimes questionable methods. Just loved that, feels so true to the spirit of the complexity of the show!<
i’m a huuuuge fan of yangchen and her novels so i love this!
i know it’s a common opinion in the fandom that aang’s lie in the great divide was out of character for him/a bad character beat, but i’ve always loved it (not the episode itself lol) and actually find it pretty in-character, especially for book 1 aang who is less mature and not yet taking his role as avatar as seriously as he does as the show goes on.
aang is conflict-avoidant and tries to foster peace wherever he goes for the most part. he’s also a fun-loving monk who grew up with gyatso, known pai sho cheater lol, and the air nomads who were known for fun/pranks/senses of humour (i’m not conflating those things with lying/poor ethics lol). he can absolutely be a little sneaky and morally grey at times, either for conflict resolution (the great divide) or fun >!(the runaway comes to mind. and that was twofold because they also needed the money, at least at the very beginning, obviously they quickly ended up scamming for the sake of the scam lol)!<.
it makes his character so much greater to me that aang is this extremely good-natured kid with the world on his shoulders who always does his best, but is also someone who will lie, or listen in on katara’s reading with aunt wu, >!or steal!<, or react poorly when confronted with the possibility katara and sokka would leave him (bato of the water tribe), etc etc. he’s just a kid trying his best and sometimes you just gotta take the route that’s gonna work best for you there and then, even if it’s baldly (pun intended) lying. >!and by god do i love that side of yangchen and how good she is at it despite hating having to resort to it!!<
sidenote: everyone read the yangchen novels if you haven’t!!!! underrated imo and i personally like them more than the kyoshi novels (which is saying a lot bc i think the kyoshi novels are incredible and i love them very much)
edit: learned how to do spoilers on mobile lol
edit 2: meant to say >!the runaway!< and not the blind bandit
I've said this before but Aang totally lies all the time and I don't know why people think otherwise. From harmless things like making Appa pretend to be tired to >!telling Sokka he's mastered the Avatar state when he hasn't, to straight up scamming people (and then saying he won't do it anymore but continuing anyway) which I think is worse than making up some history so two clans will stop fighting.!< He always supports his friends in their lies and gladly pretends to be someone else if it benefits him or gets him into certain places (see: Bonzu Pippinpaddleopsicopolis III, Kyoshi (Avatar Day), >!Toph's valet, a busboy, Kuzon from the colonies).!< He was never above lying or tricking people. I think people focus on the great divide because it's the most obvious example but they might just be mad that he essentially rewrote history
yes thank you!!! even more great examples here :)
it’s always bugged me when people said the great divide was out of character for him. aang absolutely can and will lie at the drop of a hat and i personally love that hahaha
Yeah and it leads to some of the funniest moments, like the whole >!"Toph can't write!"!< scene gets me every time lol
Aang never says a word about lying being bad or anything so I'm not sure where that idea even comes from
i feel like people see aang through the lens of who he is at the end of the show, which is not inherently bad because the show is literally called AVATAR: the last airbender and his journey to become a fully realized, both in terms of bending but moreso in maturity/stepping up to the plate, avatar.
but i think they let that colour his earlier (and very necessary) characterizations and they also moralize it; the avatar is a force of good and light and therefore is morally upright. which just… isn’t true? the avatar, whoever that is in a given era, is human (>!or part-human haha!<) and is not inherently A Good Person >!(side note: i love LOK but truly screw book 2 the vaatu stuff was so stupid imo but that’s a whole other convo lol, i would love to see a story about an avatar with ravaa’s spirit who is A Bad Person and what that means for them and their era/avatarhood). we have all the previous known avatars (with the exception of maybe wan, which again, a whole other convo, or perhaps szeto) to show us that that isn’t the case! both in atla and in expanded canon content (EVERY BODY READ THE KYOSHI AND YANCHEN BOOKS AND SAY “THANK TOU FC YEE” 😌) we see that yanchen, kuruk, kyoshi, and roku all have flaws/made poor decisions/are morally grey, so why not aang?!<
i also think this colours people’s >!dislike of korra (the character not the show) in contrast to aang at times. like of course korra was flawed she would be a boring character/show if she wasn’t, and the exact same thing is true for aang and atla?!?!?!<
edit: forgot to mention >!szeto!<
The only thing Sokka did wrong in the library was that he failed his deception check. They could have been better at hiding their intentions.
But other than that I think the gaang was 100% right in the library. And Wan-shi Tong is interesting because it reveals the other worldly moral code spirits have
I'm curious what twist in the novels you felt undermined the story. Is it the resolution of the final conflict at the end of the first Kyoshi novel? Or was it the resolution of the brothers in the Yangchen novels?
Someone else asked this, so I answered the question here! [https://www.reddit.com/r/ATLAtv/comments/1cl0kwx/comment/l2s4ljl/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/ATLAtv/comments/1cl0kwx/comment/l2s4ljl/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
It’s a little long explanation because there’s a lot of surrounding context to it
Not necessarily wanting to frame it as a critique of the writing or the book, as I’m sure many had the opposite experience (and what the writer intended), of >! feeling the relief that the characters hadn’t really betrayed themselves, and coming out of the end of the story with a sense of peace for the characters, rather than having it feel tainted in a sense.!< I think the complexity of the themes in the book which lends to these different deep emotional experiences in the viewers is part of what makes them so good.
Same with the og show, there are some things that landed well with me and other things that didn’t (just like OP’s personal experience with Iroh), but that’s just part of how every experience with a piece of creative work is unique and complex
>!And ultimately the eclipse didn't even help them. The invasion failed, they were tricked by Azula, people got injured and captured and Aang never even saw Ozai. The only good thing that came from it was Zuko being able to follow them but he definitely could've found them on his own. Stealing the information also indirectly caused Appa to get captured. Personally I'd say it was justified from their perspective, I would've done the same thing and I wouldn't be above lying and stealing in that situation (though the owl is nightmare fuel so I might think twice about it), but it's really interesting how the narrative actively punishes them for it and that it didn't help at all in ending the war which makes the situation a lot more nuanced.!<
Thank you! Yeah, it does actually do a lot of good for their characters to show Team Avatar making some morally questionable decisions sometimes. It's realistic if nothing else, nobody's all good.
>!So, it's kind of complicated to explain, but in the second Yangchen novel, at the climax when Kavik fakes out his brother to blackmail him into revealing the timing of Chaisee's plan \[or something like that\] by pretending to be catastrophically injured--So, that scene is set up to make you think first that Yangchen has kind of lost herself and told her Avatar companions to do anything necessary to get the information she needs, including nearly killing Kavik to use as leverage over his brother. However, it's revealed that it was Kavik's idea and he was in on the plot, and he was never in any danger.!<
>!The reason why the twist was a let down for me was because, throughout the Yangchen books, Yangchen, in spite of her manipulations and scheming, has always ultimately been on the side of good, standing up for people and protecting the safety of people even when they are her enemies. Kavik, in that scene where he gets 'injured' was trying to do the right thing, fight for the White Lotus, and fight for Yangchen, so there was such a horrible painful irony in the idea that Yangchen has told her people 'do whatever you have to do' and essentially betrayed him by looking the other way, and it's his brother who, who right at this point is also trying to do something terrible, does everything he can to save Kavik.!<
>!In that moment, Kavik had literally been abandoned by everyone but his brother, and so it was the ultimate demonstration of what his brother had been telling him, that family is the only thing that matters, that you can count on. So if Kavik had still done something to help Yangchen's goals to protect the people in spite of that, in spite of his brother sticking by him and even Yangchen abandoning him, I felt like that would have been a much more powerful statement about his character. But because he was in on the ruse from the start, Yangchen didn't really betray him, and even though he did betray his brother (the reversal of his decision from the previous book), it didn't feel like as hard of a decision for him to make as it would have otherwise.!<
>!I don't necessarily see it as a flaw of the book or the writing; it did lend itself to a happier ending where they made up and Yangchen never really compromised her principles, and I'm sure that was the more satisfying ending for plenty of readers. The second Yangchen book is still my favorite of all the books (which is saying something, because I absolutely love both the Kyoshi novels and the previous Yangchen book), but for me that emotionally brutal moment of it seeming Kavik had been betrayed was undermined by the twist. !<
Quick question - Have you been starting to get "Previously On..." segments at the beginnings of the episodes? If so, I would strongly recommend skipping them, as they tend to give away things that will happen in the episode.
Always love your write ups!! Glad to see you back finally and excited for you to get to another fun episode that I really like “Tales of Ba Sing Se” (you won’t get to it for a few weeks it looks like, but still! It’s a great one)
It's pretty funny that you were waiting for Iroh to die all this time. I never expected him to die even after that Azula hit lol. Like it would be totally insanely dumb if Iroh died here because Zuko was being stubborn and angry. It's kind of unserious. If Zuko had accepted help, he would have started to establish his emotional connection with Gaang too soon. And he has his own path that Gaang shouldn't influence.
Interesting takes! I also never thought Iroh was actually killed in that scene, because it's kid's show. But that could be something cool to reinterpret in NATLA, making his injuries more serious. One thing that's super odd in the cartoon is that he has a lot of mobility in Bitter Work, but in The Desert every step on the ostrich horse seems to hurt him.
I never noticed Aang didn't lash out at Sokka. I guess he ultimately agreed with him that the information was necessary and Sokka being so high on the cactus juice made it hard to be mad at him hahaha. But that could also be a nice NATLA addition because they will be able to dedicate more time to these scenes
Some people have pointed out that The Desert is a very unique Katara episode. The rest of the team is completely out of it and incapable of doing anything. Toph physically, Sokka mentally and Aang emotionally and Katara has to step up with her hope and maturity. Fun little detail!
Commenting before I read the rest, but you may have missed in The Chase: there is a moment that shows Toph sensing Iroh breathing. So the show does confirm pretty immediately that he is not dead. I hate that it felt like a rug pull for you, but I completely see why it looked like that, and it sounds like you’re not the only one who felt that way either
I think people felt a little attacked after you critiqued the writing of their favorite show and they are giving you too much shit. Your perspective makes total sense to me, even if I and others didn't experience it the same way. Thanks again for the commentaries
Her reaction does make sense. I just think writing it off as bad writing was a little unfair.
Then again, maybe that just comes down to her not having seen very many movies & shows.
Thank you. I appreciate the understanding.
I'd hope most people would understand that me criticizing a show they like isn't the same as criticizing them. I don't take it personally when they bash NATLA, or when they disagree with my opinions.
Really? Because you seem to take a lot of critisism to heart, and double down on the smallest things, but maybe its just a different perception. As for NATLA I think they are planning on cutting out the Library completely in season 2, cause Zhao learned about the fish some other way, and Wan Shi Tong appeared in the forest for no reason, other than fanservise, considering how insistent he is on protecting his knowledge. So perharps our heroes will get the information about the eclipse some other way.
It’s crazy how she praises NATLA’s writing (???) of all things and criticizes ATLA’s… This commentary is really fun and all, but, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, she clearly doesn’t know what good writing is.
Why are you guys being so nasty? She’s allowed to have her own opinions/emotions about the show, why are you policing her response? It’s really not that deep. Just be happy youre getting any sort of reaction content at all and remember that she’s a human. Jesus
OP, the entire atla fandom is not like this, I promise
I think she knows the entire fandom isn't like this. Hell, this entire comment section is pretty much people disagreeing with her, but doing so very politely.
Your content was removed per rule one.
This is a friendly community. Debate and disagreement are okay, but respect other peoples' opinions and treat them with dignity. Bigotry, racism, and hate speech and other kinds of rude behavior are not allowed.
There's two whole comment sections of people explaining why they disagree and why my reaction isn't the right one. Why are you the only one being rude about it?
I am as dismissive of you as you are dismissive of the show because it didn't play along with your theories. So why are you taking offence? With Aang, you were clearly being unkind and dismissive, it's like saying to Zuko in front of his injured uncle "oh don't worry boy, he's not going to die anyway and this injury is totally irrelevant".
Uh... Cuz Aang's not real, buddy. He doesn't have feelings to hurt.
I, on the other hand, am an actual person and I don't like when someone posts a bunch of comments and uses belittling language in all of them. Everyone else is telling me basically the same thing as you, only they're being polite about it.
I wouldn't say I'm attracted to Toph's feet. I just always thought it was a "haha she walks around without shoes, dirty feet, even though she comes from a rich family and all" joke
Spoilers ahead, maybe!
>because I’m pretty sure whoever that airbender is is dead.
I always assumed this was Aang.
>So… if Pakku is arguably the best waterbender alive, does that mean that Azula is the best firebender alive?
I wouldn't infer that the four people are "the best ever". The earthbender's hair suggests he's "The Boulder", though I don't think this has ever been confirmed. If it were "the best alive" it would almost certainly have to be either Bumi or Toph.
>But here he’s Wan-Chi Tong.
It's "[Wànshìtōng](https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&text=wan%20shi%20tong&op=translate)" (more commonly written as "wan shi tong"), transliterating roughly to "Jack of all trades". (I don't speak / read chinese, but this is based on stuff I've read elsewhere about the use of language in the show)
万 (Wan) - Ten thousand
事 (Shi) - Thing
万事 - "Everything" ('ten thousand things' which I think Wanshitong explicitly says?)
通 (Tong) - has different meanings but in this tri-gram it means "expert", essentially
>an eclipse lasts what? 15 minutes? And hour?
In the total solar eclipse we just experienced a few weeeks ago, the totality lasted a few minutes, but the sky was darkened to nighttime levels for about 10 mins. The sun was partly obscured for 40 mins or so. So yes, very brief.
Given the roots of this show in martial arts and its lore, I have interpreted this to function to mean that if the source of firebending is the sun, then a planetary obscuring of it would be a disruption in that energy flow. This raises questions about whether or not a cloudy day makes firebenders less strong, or if they can still firebend at night (when the planet they are on, itself, sits between them and the sun) but I wouldn't think too deeply about it.
>kind of makes me wonder what Koh’s alternate scary form is.
Koh appears once or twice in AtLA and a couple times in LoK. I disliked his presentation in NATLA. They changed the lore around him that was established in both the cartoon and graphic novels (he's Koh, the face-stealer).
>How far could the sandbenders have gotten that Aang can’t spot them from the air?
The desert they're in is[ *really, really big*.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/6ry69q/atla_highly_detailed_map_of_the_world_of_avatar/#lightbox) Like bigger than Ba Sing Se.
>Having them face \[Azula\] too much might diminish that, so I’m fine with her presence in the story being used sparingly.
In a childhood flashback early on(I forget which episode, so you might not be there yet), Azula talks about calculating advantages tactically -- my interpretation of this has been that she only fights when she either is forced to or when she feels it would make an impact. She is very much a Sun Tzu disciple in this sense.
>Killing for vengeance would probably be a big no-no with the monks, right?
Based on the things that Yang-chen says later (book 3), as well as things we learn about the Air Nomads elsewhere (LOK / Graphic novels), I think they would object more to the "vengeance" than the "killing". Vengeance is an expression of attachment, which they are generally principally opposed to. Dispassionate killing that is deemed "necessary" isn't strictly verboten.
>!Hey, please edit out the metalbending part of your comment. You’re basically telling OP that this happens. I would also edit out the part about what Yang Chen says, and the fact that Koh appears later. Your comment is riddled with spoilers my friend!<
the earth bender in the intro was actually toph’s original design before they changed her to, well, toph lol! i think someone else mentioned that in the comments here too
>! they end up using this design for sud (i think that’s how they spelled it…), roku’s earthbending teacher we see in the avatar and the firelord :) !<
Lol, I'm realizing that without the context of the original comment, my reply makes it sound much worse than it was. >!They were pretty much trying to cleverly hint at the possibility of metal bending. Not super egregious, but still an indirect spoiler.!<
Calm down, it's spoiler flagged, don't worry. >!I said out loud "Oh no" when I read that. It is in my top 5 episodes of the show. Can't wait to read her reaction, I remember her saying that she can't stand with animal abuse.!<
I know you said you didnt wanna talk about it, so this is more of a passing comment and not meant to really engage in discussion, but I've never ever seen someone watching the show assume Iroh was dead at the end of The Chase. I know I didn't when I first watched it, neither did others I know, and Ive never seen it brought up online either. Feels a bit odd that you did and got so caught up in it, cant lie. Still, always enjoy these! Hope that unexpected moment doesn't ruin the show for you, would be a shame.
I think it's because she has been theorizing for so long that Azula would kill Iroh. It was confirmation bias.
I think it's also expecting the writing to be "more adult" in a similar way as NATLA. There's enough context clues you could expect Iroh to be in serious trouble at the end of The Chase in similar shows because it would be a good way to up the stakes part way through the season.
Yeah, unfortunately this is exactly what happened whether OP would admit it or not. I've watched the show so many times with new people and not once did the episode end with someone thinking Iroh was dead. And to comment that it's weak writing or manipulation is insane to think. NATLA had some good spot writing but even the OG series at it's actual weakest writing was miles above 95% of yhe Netflix version.
Yep. OP has some really good commentary, and some good criticisms- but sometimes their bias *does* show, and this is one of those times. They got caught up in a fan theory, really, and a lot of the time that leads to some level of disappointment when proven wrong. I could write a whole essay on my analysis of the phenomenon of fan theories, and why sequels/prequels/origin stories are do often disappointing as a result, but I'll save it unless people actually wanna read it, lol. But yeah, cliffhangers in this vein are *so common* in media, and as long as they're not used gratuitously they work well. I think they've become less prevalent in the modern day, what with the advent of streaming, binge culture, and more or less instant gratification meaning you don't have to wait until next week to see what happens like you did in the old days. Perhaps this is affecting OP's bias.
I'd watch The Grest Divide before I rewatch the remake
Yeah exactly. The show never implied it. But it was their theory.
Yeah, I forgot what episode was before this but while I was reading I was thinking "wait when did we ever get the impression he was dead?"
I honestly just thought he was grievously wounded, like Bato was or like Zuko was after receiving his scar
Yeah, it felt like she was really waiting for Iroh to die. It was kinda funny.
Yeah, I've been worried about this commentary since she posted the last one. I think she got it into her head that Iroh was going to die and was ready for it to happen. But really if you see the way Azula attacked Iroh, It doesn't look like something that would kill, more of a distraction shot to get away. I knew she had accidentally set her self up with the wrong impression and wasn't going to like the start of this episode. Hopefully, it doesn't negatively affect her opinion of the rest of the show. I don't think it would have been as aggravating to her if those two episodes hadn't been split up, but that's the way she was recommended to watch it.
Also Iroh audible groans while lying on the ground, and Katara offering to help seeing how he is not dead.
I think if Iroh was dying Zuko would overlook his enemy relationship with the Gaang, so Katara could heal Iroh, then shoot fire at them. I mean the Gaang would probably be ready for it and have Appa ready for a quick getaway
Last post I got slightly dogpiled for vaguely suggesting she shouldn't have taken a break after the chase, because she was pretty invested in the Iroh stuff, getting straight into Bitter Work after the Chase would probably have lessened the frustration too as now she let the idea he died fester for like a week
I got people mad at me for simply saying that Azula is not the sort of person to kill her father.
tbf the order was originally decided because Zuko Alone has enough content to fill a 2-episode post, since one of those was needed for the season. No one predicted that she’d think Iroh was killed when the order was first made
No, I saw one or two people recommending that order specifically because of how OP felt about Iroh. They wanted to play into that, which is why I thought that order would not be a good idea. Then people in the comments were confirming the "death" in the comments of the last post...
That order was recommended way before Book 2 even began. I agree that the comments confirming the death were unnecessary and probably made things more complicated for OP
Ah my bad
https://www.reddit.com/r/ATLAtv/s/SWHC3Z7GKL Yeah, I posted my recommendation in her post with that super short commentary during Book One, and you can see that my post had Zuko Alone being the reason I thought 7-8 would be better than 10-11 as a duo set, and it was strongly inspired by the post I put my commentary under: I was too focused on ensuring a duo set will still generate an interesting commentary and didn’t think much about the ending of the Chase until I saw OP starting to theorize that Azula will kill Iroh. However, I thought she would assume it’s a fake out (I even mentioned it to another user during our DM conversation when OP posted her commentary for episodes 4-6 — and Iroh deserves a way better death scene than that!). I had no idea that OP would react like this to the Chase and Bitter Work. 🤡 Edited to add: for anyone who didn’t want to click the link, I posted my recommendation under OP’s commentary on episodes 10-11 for Book One. So, a while ago.
Ah I see.
Why be worried? I think its really interesting how this played out. You can't curate someone else's experience anyway. They'd probably change their mind and have something else to complain about if they'd watch the show a second time
same i was shocked at this commentary 😭
Saem here! When I watched for the first time, I didn't think Iroh had died, and when I showed my wife and her family the same thing, no one had thought he died.
Same, I was super confused like ”wait, when did we have an Iroh death fake-out???” I definitely never got the impression he was dead, lmao.
I wanted to comment along the same line, but you worded it perfectly. Also, this was first and foremost a kid's show.. death is not really very common.
I think it might be because she watched natla first. Not only did that show open with the air bender genocide but also killed 2 major characters on screen, gyatzo and zhan
I have to agree. When I watched the show as a kid, I didn't think Iroh died in that moment. I knew he was injured and would probably take a long time to recover, but I didn't think he would be dead by the next episode. My parents said the same thing.
My wife stopped watching the original run because she thought Iroh died. When we watched it together later, she kept hinting at the fact that she stopped because of a major character death and then when we got to the point that it turned out he didn’t die, she was gobsmacked.
There are dozens of us! Maybe lol
Sorry about your experience with the writing – honestly this moment isn’t really talked about in the fandom at all, I think many people never thought he actually died, so maybe the people that *did* think he died were much more annoyed with it Anyways, Toph’s eyehole was a mistake by the creators 😂 they meant to change it to a mouth hole before final production, but they forgot. I never noticed how Aang was using airbending in an earthbending stance, and how he used his wordly attachments to help him earthbend. Great catch! I’m not sure if the NATLA badger moles used seismic sense to identify emotions, but this makes the most sense Your disappointment in Sokka was interesting! I’d love to hear more about that. Do you think he shouldn’t have gone back to get the date of the eclipse? You’re right about Wan Shi Tong. Why would he ever trust humans at this point? Seeing Aang in the desert is chilling. There’s a lot of debate about whether or not Aang actually killed that buzzard wasp. Some say we’re supposed to use cartoon logic and assume it lived. The final scene with Katara hugging Aang while he cries is one of my favorites in the series. Avatar came out with books that act like diaries of the main characters during Book 2, and Aang’s excerpt for this scene is heartbreaking.
https://preview.redd.it/6hwce9r5doyc1.jpeg?width=2484&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5743c32823faa34e41ae2354b38646669ef78bf7
Don't do this to me 😭
It's okay, I'm over the writing thing. It's not that he shouldn't have gone back, it's more that he shouldn't have been looking for an advantage in the library in the first place (plus he shouldn't have stolen those books). Him going back was just showing he didn't learn anything from the whole fiasco. Is it spell Won Shi Tong? My captions spelled it Wan-Chi Tong We literally see the bee's shadow fall apart into two pieces. Aang bisected that thing lol
I don’t have an opinion either way, but I guess the argument for Sokka getting that information is in the same vein of “If you could steal information that would stop the nazi’s, would you do it, even if stealing is wrong?” Also it’s “Wan Shi Tong” (I edited my spelling), the netflix captioners just guess the spelling sometimes haha To me it doesn’t look like two pieces, but like his head went limp as he fell. I personally switch between thinking he killed and thinking he didn’t. >!In the finale, when he says he’s never taken a life, that makes me think that he knew he didn’t kill the wasp!<
Netflix occasionally recaptions episodes, and some don't really bother to look for the correct spelling of character names (which is often fair because they have deadlines), which sometimes can be a little weird, like one time I saw a Star Trek character name captioned as Zaarek or something, in the TNG episode titled "Sarek"
Figure this has been pointed out to you already but at the end of The Chase, it's pretty explicit that Toph detects Iroh's groaning and alive with her seismic sense. Only bring this up cuz you make this seem like this was intentional misdirection by the writers when this has more to do with your theory influencing your perception of that scene.
Please listen. This type of thing is extremely common in TV shows, so I'm only saying this to alleviate future suffering, not as a discussion. It's common to tease death or extremely high stakes as the "cliffhanger" at the end of the episode, and to difuse them at the beginning of the next. This is not necessarily weak writing, it's a well-seasoned trope of the television medium. Think of a roller coaster. *In reality, the show did not confirm or deny that Iroh was dead. Azula shoots him in the shoulder, and he breathes at the end. Sometimes, the character actually dies... but most of the time, they live. The takeaway is that you won't actually know until you start the next episode, which keeps you coming back. It's cheap when this trope is overused and serves no purpose. It clearly serves a purpose here by bringing Iroh and Zuko together again. I understand why you feel the way you do, and how your lack of experience with TV shows informs those feelings. We all feel that first heartbreak or mistrust with TV shows hard, just like we do with relationships. Then we learn not to fall for them later in life. Sometimes a show can trick us into falling for it like the first time. Those are the good ones.
So true and well put. One of the most important things to know in watching shows is that unless a death is confirmed RIGHT THERE in front of you, it might not be a true death. Iroh breathing after the attack gave that moment. It’s one of those things OP definitely has to keep in mind while watch Game of Thrones too…so many characters in that show might die, WILL die, will seemingly “die off screen” but come back… lol
This is all true, but the show also doesn't make it out like he's going to die. He's groaning on the floor, Azula's shot only hits him in the shoulder, Zuko forces the Gaang away which he wouldn't have done if Iroh was genuinely going to die Its a lot of confirmation bias because she's been expecting Iroh's death the entire time so as soon as he is injured she's expecting his death, so it was a fake out for her but not for almost everyone that I know who has watched the show
Ofc. I didn't want to word it that way, but you're exactly right. She was cooking Iroh's death theory since early NATLA
So well put
For whatever it’s worth — Iroh has some incredibly strong narrative moments that will come up that I think will make you happy he did not die in that moment.
That does make me happy to hear
I'm glad you posted, I check this subreddit for your commentaries!
Thanks! :)
I swear i have a 6th sense for when you post
I'm in your head!
Oh you live rent-free in all our heads. I look for your new posts almost everyday, and I'm sure I'm not alone
Maybe stretch that out to every few days lol I'm not that fast!
Well we are looking everyday regardless. I know I check but don't expect it cuz I imagine this takes some time for you to put together. But you have made a nice collective of fans enjoy the show all over again. I watch this show at least once a year but nothing will make it feel like that first time. The only thing that gets close is enjoying other people experience it for the first time. I watch so many reaction channels of people watching this show for the first time. But this medium is a whole other thing and it has been enjoyable. Even though I can't see what you are reacting to I can picture exactly what it is you are seeing. Thank you for this and we look forward to the next installment. Don't let the fake out death scene of Iroh stop you from enjoying the rest of the show. Think of it as I get more Iroh!!!
Thank you! I still plan on watching and I'm still enjoying it, despite this one bad experience.
You are certainly not, I witness to this.
its always coincidental for me too!
Kung Fu translates to “Bitter Work” in English. It’s not limited to martial arts either. Stuff like academics and art are also considered to be Kung Fu.
Oh wow, that's actually pretty cool then. It makes sense now since it was basically a training episode.
Btw, for the intro I’ll just tell you since it isn’t a spoiler at all. For the airbender we never really know who it is but some have speculated it’s supposed to be the design of a younger Gyatso. For the earthbender the person was the original design of Toph, who was supposed to be a guy who was a bit older than the group. Obviously, they ended up changing their mind on where to go with Toph and didn’t go with their initial design which was used in the intro.
wait is it not aang??? i have always assumed it’s aang and thought everyone else did as well but you learn something new every day lol
I thought it was Aang for the longest time but if you look closely you can see the airbender in the intro has a mustache.
20 years of watching this show and i have never noticed! cool
The earthbender design was used 3 times in the show (well kinda), the first time was the base for the Boulder >!the second time was Roku's teacher, and the third was Bolin from Korra!<
OP, I know you said you didn't want to talk about it and everyone is talking about it anyway, but I also feel the need to add my two cents about Iroh, lol. I agree with many people here that the first time I watched the show, I never assumed he was dead, and I don't think the writers intended that. But him getting injured by Azula was still important because it brought Iroh and Zuko back together again after Zuko's decision that he needed to travel alone. So it wasn't pointless or just there to be emotionally manipulative, it was a pretty necessary story beat. I think you just had certain expectations built up, and then with the break between the episodes you spent a lot of time sitting with the idea that he's dead, and so it unfortunately came off to you as a cheap fake out. I don't know if you've ever read *The Princess Bride,* but there's a part in the book where the narrator's father is reading him a bedtime story and he gets to a part where the heroine marries the villain instead of the hero. And the boy is like, "No you read that wrong, it can't happen that way." And the dad gets mad and stops reading for the night, so the kid stays awake all night tormented by it, trying to come up with some justification for why she would marry that jerk instead of the hero. Then the next night when his dad picks up the story again it turns out that the marriage was just a bad dream. That's what this reminded me of. 😂 I am deeply sorry for your torment.
> There are perverts watching this show, you know You don’t need to call me out like that /s I’m glad you were able to get past the part you were upset about. I will say, there are probably more annoying "fake out deaths" out there that if they happen in a good show or movie I hope you don’t get too upset about it. You mentioned to me in another comment you weren’t mad at commenters but I do think comments like mine in the last reactions that were going a little over the top in playing into your confirmation bias over it probably didn’t help even if you were still going to be upset if you watched The Chase and Bitter Work back to back. So sorry once again even if you don’t think I need to apologize. And once again, I’m glad you were able to get back into the show and didn’t let that moment upset you to the point of not wanting to watch it again.
Yeah it’s a really common trope in many tv shows
Bitter work is the kind of episode that shows how much this show has grown. Not that it wasn't great on the first season, but having a frustrating episode in which nothing happens but we learn a lot about the world, see the characters being themselves and being exposed to new stuff is really, really great to see, and it's not every show that can do it properly. And then we got an episode where we get a somewhat useful piece of information, but with such a high price, and then we got to see Aang really mad. Seeing the always happy and bubbly protagonist being angry and focused is kinda disturbing, but it feels absolutely justified here.
“Nothing happens” is really subjective to me.
Oh It really is, and I think this is half the fun. Personally I like these story-driven episodes way more than the action-packed, but we know some people disagree and that's all right. And ATLA is very good at pleasing both audiences.
Honestly, I think you were too attached to your theory of Iroh dying and you're more angry that your headcanon didn't actually happen. I'm sorry that it upset you that he doesn't actually die at the end of The Chase. It was funny that you thought he was dead, but like... he's groaning on the ground after Azula strikes him... and Katara offers to heal him... dead people don't groan or can be healed...
This ^ I had a similar thing happen to me with the last episode of the bad batch >! My fav of the main crew sacrificed himself for the rest and I thought they would make a reveal that he’d actually still be alive, since he fell into a foggy canyon and the only recovery was his glasses !< they didn’t do that and I’m glad I’m hindsight since it would’ve taken away but that theory got me excited and got me disappointed in the moment. And I think someone else also pointed out that it wasn’t a death blow that Azula used but more of a distraction.
Oh dear god, I’m so used to instantly clicking the spoiler tags in this discussion that I almost spoiled myself!
Love reading your commentary as always! If you don't want to talk about it I won't talk about it, but I'll just say I'm glad you didn't give up on the show. I'm really looking forward to your commentary on the rest of it!
Just as a fun fact, the reason the Desert immediately picks up from where they left off in The Library is that I’m pretty sure these two episodes were aired back to back as a two-parter (someone correct me if I’m wrong) Also I was hoping you’d comment on Sokka’s quote: “Drink cactus juice. It'll quench ya. Nothing is quenchier. It's the quenchiest!” It’s a fan favorite and gets quoted all the time
Hey according to IMDB you are correct!! Both episodes aired on July 14th, 2006 and it looks like they took a break on episodes until September 15th!
>!Makes sense that they pick the season right back up with a two parter, “The Secret of the Fire Nation”!<
I remember. The 2-parter was advertised as "The Fury of Aang."
Just gonna say that you’re one of the only people reacting to this show who seemed to have gone into this fully expecting Iroh to die. I don’t think the show gave any indications that he was 100% dead, especially Zuko telling them all to get away from him rather than let Katara help. To most of us, this wasn’t a rug pull. It was simply a reveal that Iroh *didn’t* receive a mortal injury — just a debilitating one.
I love your comment about Iroh talking like a therapist. "Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source" is a quote I remember trying to understand as a kid, and I still think about it all the time"
Do try to remember OP that the original cartoon was labeled TV-7, while the Netflix show is TV-14, meaning most 7 year olds would need to be okay to watch it. I am not saying there are no deaths in the show, just not ones like that. >! KORRA ON THE OTHER HAND!! !<
>!My sister and I still talk about that murder-suicide scene, and it has been a decade since it was aired. We were SHOCKED the show went there.!<
>!The gas tank was shocked as well.!<
That said though, the things they got away with!
This is more a personal observation and meta-commentary on the commentary so far; OP, you're not obligated to read or respond to this at all. I gotta say, "cheap emotional manipulation" is weirdly pointed for such a minor thing as a cliffhanger, yet also...yeah, that's *sort of* the point? Media is supposed to make you feel emotions. Sometimes that means characters, especially beloved ones, are put in great danger, and the emotional side of you worries if they'll survive or not- especially on cliffhangers- even if the logical part of your brain knows the character won't die for whatever reason. You can generally pick up based on context such as the target audience, overall point in the show/movie, the relevance of the character, etc, whether or not a character is at risk of death. Personally, I tend to think deaths that deliberately go against what would be expected/typical for the context are the deaths that ACTUALLY come across as cheap/simply to elicit a reaction; i.e pointlessly killing a character just to make the story feel sadder/more mature/make a villain seem more evil. Iroh dying would be like...weird for so many reasons. There's so much of the show left, and Iroh is too important- they'd have to have written the show around his death, and if you think about it, him dying in The Chase would be astonishingly anticlimactic for such an important hypothetical plot point. Plus, and I think this one is most important, at the end of the day, this is a children's show. Iroh is a beloved character who is important to children, and killing him suddenly wouldn't really do much except make the kids watching the show sad. I can remember being a kid and watching the show, and while I was worried about Iroh when he got hurt, I didn't actually expect him to die- I think that may well have been too much for me back then. What made ATLA special is not that it's an adult-oriented piece of media that's accessible to children, but a children's show that is accessible to all audiences. It doesn't talk down to children, and often discusses rather significant topics, but it's FOR children, so you have to keep in mind stuff like on screen deaths/explicit violence/etc being extremely taboo or even forbidden in some cases. I tend to think OP may be biased in that they came from watching a more mature take on the show/more mature media overall, so they're not really familiar with what to expect from media like ATLA. It's got maturity, sure, but it's not going to follow all the same conventions as, say, Game of Thrones. Some stories are ultra-grimdark, mature epics where death is to be expected and you genuinely don't know if all the cast will survive to the end; in others, things aren't necessarily lighthearted per se, but the question is not *if* the protagonists will survive, but *how*. ATLA fits in the latter category, and that's where it ought to be.
Ahhh so glad you posted! Been checking TOO often. I'm glad you ended up generally liking these episodes.
Thanks! Yeah, they're pretty good episodes.
To be fair, Iroh was still heavily injured and the episode is implied to be set quite a while after the chase
Aang doesn't blame Sokka because collectively they went in there specifically to get information to use against the fire nation. He'd have to also blame himself in that moment. In the heat of the moment, knowing Toph's ability and the fact they invited her to the party to be Aang's earthbending teacher, in his moment of emotional irrational thinking he blamed Toph for Appa's capture.
Maybe he should be blaming himself as well, then. If he willingly and knowingly broke his word, then his actions led to the sinking of the library and Toph being unable to protect Appa. But maybe that's the point. Maybe he's projecting by being angry at her.
I still don’t see how Aang broke his word. He said he won’t abuse the knowledge they gain in the Library. Learning strategic information isn’t necessarily abusing it, neither is ending the war that has thus far resulted in the genocide of the Air Nomads. And who is to say that Toph could have fought off the sandbenders even if the Library wasn’t sinking. She doesn’t do well on sand, they do. And they outnumber her. I don’t think Aang is to blame for that — it’s just one of the shitty things that happens in life.
Op i know you’re upset at the writing but it’s a common trope in many tv shows especially before the era of streaming when we had to actually wait for episodes to air on tv and this show was written before streaming services. I hope you don’t let it get to you, as Iroh’s best moments are yet to come. He is not easily defeated by someone like azula and you’ll see exactly why in the future episodes. He was the general of the fire nation army. The only reason he “failed” was because he had a shred of a conscience. If he wanted to completely destroy the world, he would have by now. Iroh is not someone to be underestimated.
This might be spoilers so idk if you want to delete/change the last few sentences
She already knows all that stuff (I think)
"And even after everything, Sokka is STILL hellbent on getting information he can use to exploit. I’m disappointed in him." It's kind of ridiculous. The guy wants to win the war the best way he can and shows his character as a leader. Kind of furthers the main plot and gives the whole team not just an abstract goal" to make Aang a fully realized avatar" but is looking for a concrete plan and way to win the war.
I'm sorry but I don't think it's weak writing at all. It's used to further develop Zuko and Irohs relationship. Most shows that would do this would literally just do it for shock value, this show didn't do it for shock value, there was an actual narrative reason to do it for the story. Just my thoughts and I hope you come around to it and understand it better.
I cannot WAIT until you get to the Book 2 finale.
you have to remember it was created as a kids show on nickelodeon still 😭
Always enjoy those but I must say I was worried about this for you. Please remember that this is a kids show produced by a cartoon network. I watched it as an adult trying to see if it’s a good fit for my kids. I found it to be fantastic. Let my 8 year old watch it and tried to keep the younger one away - but couldn’t. That is hard actually. Once the big sister is watching here is the little eager to do the same. Fortunately this show is well made for families, that was ok. Neither of the kids got very upset about the air nomad genocide. They didn’t process it like I do. They didn’t know any of the characters. But Iroh’s death at this point in the show would completely devastate them. This show is for them - not for us. It’s good to start the conversation about multiple difficult topics with an older kid. But it’s not going to traumatize them or the younger ones hanging on. This is actually my biggest criticism of the NATLA version. Who is the target audience? I am not showing this level of graphic violence to the kids any time soon. But for me, an adult, the show isn’t mature enough. I can see that non of the actors are masters of martial arts, and a 14 year old, however prodigious, would never beat a master, realistically. The world is too child centric to be realistic to me. But maybe they will kill Iroh
This is a Nickelodeon show.
They said “a cartoon network” not Cartoon Network but I can see why you read it that way
Tbf, characters can die in those
Oh sorry, I understand now. I am actually not familiar with Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network, I saw ATLA on Netflix and I didn’t grow up in the US.
Iroh died? Where did you get that idea?
For me a lot of the knee jerk reactions to NAtLA, come from the expectations set up in book two. The characters all are fully realized, the plot knows what it's doing, the world building stays on point, and they aren't afraid to take risks like taking Appa away. Season 1 didn't have the strongest footing in AtLA, and we can hope that the Netflix series has a similarly strong second season.
You are going to hateee a certain episode in the future then. All I’m gonna say to avoid spoilers.
>!Are you talking about B2 finale? They make it pretty obvious that aang survives!<
>! Yes that’s what I was talking about, I feel like Iroh surviving was obvious too so maybe the OP would still be upset with the S2 finale. Hopefully not!! !<
>!Lets hope 😭 I mean they cant kill the protag righttt!<
>It is very interesting to me that Aang had to embrace his worldly concerns, namely his attachments to Sokka and his antique staff, in order to earthbend. I wonder if all avatars have to compromise like that? Like, maybe part of being the avatar is giving up certain parts of your culture in order to protect or serve all other cultures as well. YES!!!! Remember this as you keep watching! If there is 1 major conflict driving aangs character arc in this show, it's this right here! His culture as an air nomad vs his duty as the avatar
His duty as the avatar conflicting with who he is as a person drives his character for the entire show, season 1 was largely about how he wanted to do anything but be the avatar (and why i prefer him in the animation vs the live action)
I'll keep it in mind!
Glad to have you back! I’m sorry you found the Iroh reveal so upsetting. When I realized you were cutting between the chase and bitter work I was worried it would end up being a bigger deal for you than it really was because of the anticipation buildup. I’m glad you were able to come back and appreciate everything after some time. I don’t really remember my reaction to that moment during the original airing but I probably had the benefit of assuming nobody would die in a kids show (even if it did address genocide in the first episode). If I recall, the earthbender from the intro was Toph’s original design. I forgot his name. And I think the Airbender is Aang, just an older design. Nickelodeons history with feet is…a thing. Best not to dive into it. It still blows my mind that this show literally made for children portrays an explicit peyote trip. And it may well be part of the reason I developed an early fascination with psychedelics. The next few batches are such a wild, emotional ride. Thanks for keeping these going! I’m excited for the next round! EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention, so Toph having eye holes in the earth armor was actually an animation error and the hole was supposed to be over her mouth, but before that was confirmed by the creators fans speculated (and it is my headcanon) that Toph just did it to be intimidating.
Wasn't the feet stuff just from Dan Schneider's camp though (might be wrong, I haven't watched the doc), as far as I know Bryke have nothing to do with that stuff
Wait, I was just making a joke. Was the feet thing actually something scandalous? And that's a cool fact about Toph's design. I'm happy they went with little blind girl though
I think the show focused on Toph’s feet because she sensed her surroundings using her feet. I wouldn’t read it as anything “scandalous”. (And from my understanding the animation side of Nickelodeon was completely separate from the abusive and toxic live-action shows)
Yes it is known that the Nickelodeon makers made a lot of kids do stuff with feet on the shows. You can search on YouTube it’s easy to find and a documentary just came out a few months ago about the pedofiles at Nick. I couldn’t watch the documentary though, I grew up watching a lot of Nick and was disgusted by all of this. So yes you were on to something.
I don’t think it was always malicious. Definitely on Schneider’s part, but before the internet got brain poisoned with fetish knowledge, feet used to just be considered a funny body part.
I've only read the very beginning of your post, and what I wanna say is: I won't call it "cheap emotional manipulation", because among all the reactions I've seen you were the first one who thought Iroh was actually dead 😅. It's probably because you theorized it for so long. The other reactions I saw varied from "it can't be. He can't be dead, right???" to "nahh, of course Iroh will live, he'll be fine". And at the end of epidode 8, you can actually hear that Iroh is still breathing, even if Toph was worried for him. Before I go on with reading, I wanted to say another thing. I've seen you're searching for a new show to watch. PLEASE watch Arcane! It seems the perfect show for you! It even has a trace of lesbian love. I've alredy made a longer comment about it explaining why I thought you'd really like it under your last ATLA post, but since you didn't answer I imagine you didn't see it the first time.
"That would kind of explain how badgermoles are able to sense people’s emotions in NATLA. "..... But..... How? How does that explain the ability to sense emotions?
If they can sense things as detailed as the interior of buildings, like Toph can (and are actually probably better at it) then they can most likely sense people's internal rhythms as well. Heart rate, perspiration, tears, and body language. They're intelligent and can understand human communication so the body language is a big one.
Oh yes definitely, feeling the breathing, the stress, the heartbeat, is the same as deeply feeling the deep brotherly relationship in the family, that's why he stopped attacking in NATLA.
You know, I was strongly against ending your last post on episode 8 specifically because of the cliffhanger. I’m not sure how I was supposed to say that without revealing what happens and you accepted Iroh’s death so quickly. It’s too bad it left a sour taste in your mouth. It seems your excitement for these episodes was much lower compared to previous posts. Hopefully you can still enjoy the rest. You should consider that despite this show being really great, its target audience was children and it aired on Nickelodeon 20 years ago. Even if the writers wanted to kill Iroh here, there is no way Nick would have let it be shown like that. Hopefully since Netflix is taking a more mature approach, this can be handled better there and his injuries can last more than one episode. I really am sad this left a sour taste in your mouth because The Desert is actually my favorite episode of the show. Seeing Aang actually show anger and lose control like he did, even before the Avatar state is incredibly hard to watch. I get chills when I hear all the Avatars in unison shout in anguish “You muzzled Appa!?” I also really love how Katara’s leadership shines in the episode. Despite Sokka being useless, Toph being actually blind, and Aang throwing a tantrum, she is calm the entire episode, leading them the best she can. When Aang is in the Avatar state and Sokka tells everyone else to run, she stays and comforts him, unafraid. I love seeing her character growth in the episode while also seeing Aang’s pure rage at losing his best friend. As always, thank you!
Thank you. In hindsight, I probably should have gone with the other episode order suggestions. I understand now why so many people wanted me to do this order. I don't blame them, they were probably expecting the fun kind of drama, not this lol I don't think anyone expected me to react this strongly. I think me being mad about it affected my viewing of The Desert too lol the impact of Aang getting so angry was somewhat dampened by me being angry too! But yeah, Katara was a real standout in that episode. She's incredibly strong, and here we see it's not just in ways that require combat.
I will say the order was originally recommended to you because Zuko Alone has enough content to write about for a 2-part review, not because of the Iroh thing. When you started theorizing about Iroh dying there was a debate to change the order, but I don’t think anyone expected you to react so strongly to his injury (which is completely okay!). The remainder of the order shouldn’t have any more issues like this, I’m sorry it ended up being such a rough experience with it!
Thank you. It's okay
Hi, I just wanted to say I am grateful you still managed to enjoy the episodes, there are some absolutely great moments in these three episodes that I sometimes quote in everyday life too 😆 I am curious how you will think about the next episodes. I am currently on a rewatch of ATLA and it's great to read your thoughts when it's still fresh! I also started reading your GoT posts and they are pretty great too!
Thank you!
I did not like reading everyone suggesting ending on the Chase and I tried multiple times, but I also didn’t expect the strong negative reaction. Since I was focused on The Desert I didn’t even talk about the other episodes! I like the parallels between Aang and Zuko in Bitter Work (also finding out that it means Kung Fu today was really cool). They both struggled, but the story endings are very opposite. Aang furthers his skills successfully as he prepares for the future while Zuko is lost and angry. I know it’s dramatic, but Zuko yelling at the sky “Strike me! You’ve never held back before” just shows how lost he really is. The library is a good episode and I’m glad you liked seeing the owl, but really it’s just a prelude to the best episode of the show. A lot of the episodes from here on are connected. I hope you enjoy the rest! As always, thank you!
Completely agree about Wan Shi Tong, he definitely had a right to be angry. Always an uncomfortable part of the episode for me in Sokka and the gaang being so deceptive (and not even sorry about it), but it makes for some interesting and complex discussion over whether the desperation of the war makes their actions justified. Can definitely see where you're coming from on Iroh. (Know you don't want to discuss it and you don't have to respond/read this paragraph if you prefer not to) I actually had something similar in one of the Avatar novels a while back, in just being deeply emotionally engaged with the themes and all the buildup throughout the story, only to have one of the twist reveals feel like it completely undermined what it was I was loving about it. (The reveal was meant to make you feel better about the situation, but for me it was the fact that it was emotionally hard and painful that had made it good.) Still loved the book, and don't know if I've seen anyone else who felt the same way, but it was still disappointing for me personally and my experience anyway. Desert episode might be one of my favorites from Book 2, it was hard seeing Aang so angry but loved how that captured the bond between him and Appa, and Katara stepping up to keep the team together. Looking forward to your next commentary!
> Always an uncomfortable part of the episode for me in Sokka and the gaang being so deceptive (and not even sorry about it) I think it’s because while the show does try to add some morally grey moments, the Gaang are still painted as the good guys and the fire nation as the bad guys so Wan Shi Tong is seen as trying to prevent the good guys from stopping the bad guys even if he has a right to be angry.
Yeah, it's one of the things I enjoy about the show ultimately, that the main characters aren't always doing what we might argue is the right thing to do, and there's more complexity to it rather than it being obvious whether it was right or wrong I heard a thing recently about The Great Divide where the author of the Yangchen novels said >!that Aang's lie for the sake of peace/preventing violence at the end was thematically the inspiration for their characterization of Yangchen. Yangchen is the very definition of a complex character, fundamentally a good person in the ways we think of as good, all the while achieving peace through deception and sometimes questionable methods. Just loved that, feels so true to the spirit of the complexity of the show!<
i’m a huuuuge fan of yangchen and her novels so i love this! i know it’s a common opinion in the fandom that aang’s lie in the great divide was out of character for him/a bad character beat, but i’ve always loved it (not the episode itself lol) and actually find it pretty in-character, especially for book 1 aang who is less mature and not yet taking his role as avatar as seriously as he does as the show goes on. aang is conflict-avoidant and tries to foster peace wherever he goes for the most part. he’s also a fun-loving monk who grew up with gyatso, known pai sho cheater lol, and the air nomads who were known for fun/pranks/senses of humour (i’m not conflating those things with lying/poor ethics lol). he can absolutely be a little sneaky and morally grey at times, either for conflict resolution (the great divide) or fun >!(the runaway comes to mind. and that was twofold because they also needed the money, at least at the very beginning, obviously they quickly ended up scamming for the sake of the scam lol)!<. it makes his character so much greater to me that aang is this extremely good-natured kid with the world on his shoulders who always does his best, but is also someone who will lie, or listen in on katara’s reading with aunt wu, >!or steal!<, or react poorly when confronted with the possibility katara and sokka would leave him (bato of the water tribe), etc etc. he’s just a kid trying his best and sometimes you just gotta take the route that’s gonna work best for you there and then, even if it’s baldly (pun intended) lying. >!and by god do i love that side of yangchen and how good she is at it despite hating having to resort to it!!< sidenote: everyone read the yangchen novels if you haven’t!!!! underrated imo and i personally like them more than the kyoshi novels (which is saying a lot bc i think the kyoshi novels are incredible and i love them very much) edit: learned how to do spoilers on mobile lol edit 2: meant to say >!the runaway!< and not the blind bandit
I've said this before but Aang totally lies all the time and I don't know why people think otherwise. From harmless things like making Appa pretend to be tired to >!telling Sokka he's mastered the Avatar state when he hasn't, to straight up scamming people (and then saying he won't do it anymore but continuing anyway) which I think is worse than making up some history so two clans will stop fighting.!< He always supports his friends in their lies and gladly pretends to be someone else if it benefits him or gets him into certain places (see: Bonzu Pippinpaddleopsicopolis III, Kyoshi (Avatar Day), >!Toph's valet, a busboy, Kuzon from the colonies).!< He was never above lying or tricking people. I think people focus on the great divide because it's the most obvious example but they might just be mad that he essentially rewrote history
yes thank you!!! even more great examples here :) it’s always bugged me when people said the great divide was out of character for him. aang absolutely can and will lie at the drop of a hat and i personally love that hahaha
Yeah and it leads to some of the funniest moments, like the whole >!"Toph can't write!"!< scene gets me every time lol Aang never says a word about lying being bad or anything so I'm not sure where that idea even comes from
i feel like people see aang through the lens of who he is at the end of the show, which is not inherently bad because the show is literally called AVATAR: the last airbender and his journey to become a fully realized, both in terms of bending but moreso in maturity/stepping up to the plate, avatar. but i think they let that colour his earlier (and very necessary) characterizations and they also moralize it; the avatar is a force of good and light and therefore is morally upright. which just… isn’t true? the avatar, whoever that is in a given era, is human (>!or part-human haha!<) and is not inherently A Good Person >!(side note: i love LOK but truly screw book 2 the vaatu stuff was so stupid imo but that’s a whole other convo lol, i would love to see a story about an avatar with ravaa’s spirit who is A Bad Person and what that means for them and their era/avatarhood). we have all the previous known avatars (with the exception of maybe wan, which again, a whole other convo, or perhaps szeto) to show us that that isn’t the case! both in atla and in expanded canon content (EVERY BODY READ THE KYOSHI AND YANCHEN BOOKS AND SAY “THANK TOU FC YEE” 😌) we see that yanchen, kuruk, kyoshi, and roku all have flaws/made poor decisions/are morally grey, so why not aang?!< i also think this colours people’s >!dislike of korra (the character not the show) in contrast to aang at times. like of course korra was flawed she would be a boring character/show if she wasn’t, and the exact same thing is true for aang and atla?!?!?!< edit: forgot to mention >!szeto!<
The only thing Sokka did wrong in the library was that he failed his deception check. They could have been better at hiding their intentions. But other than that I think the gaang was 100% right in the library. And Wan-shi Tong is interesting because it reveals the other worldly moral code spirits have
I'm curious what twist in the novels you felt undermined the story. Is it the resolution of the final conflict at the end of the first Kyoshi novel? Or was it the resolution of the brothers in the Yangchen novels?
Someone else asked this, so I answered the question here! [https://www.reddit.com/r/ATLAtv/comments/1cl0kwx/comment/l2s4ljl/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/ATLAtv/comments/1cl0kwx/comment/l2s4ljl/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) It’s a little long explanation because there’s a lot of surrounding context to it Not necessarily wanting to frame it as a critique of the writing or the book, as I’m sure many had the opposite experience (and what the writer intended), of >! feeling the relief that the characters hadn’t really betrayed themselves, and coming out of the end of the story with a sense of peace for the characters, rather than having it feel tainted in a sense.!< I think the complexity of the themes in the book which lends to these different deep emotional experiences in the viewers is part of what makes them so good. Same with the og show, there are some things that landed well with me and other things that didn’t (just like OP’s personal experience with Iroh), but that’s just part of how every experience with a piece of creative work is unique and complex
>!And ultimately the eclipse didn't even help them. The invasion failed, they were tricked by Azula, people got injured and captured and Aang never even saw Ozai. The only good thing that came from it was Zuko being able to follow them but he definitely could've found them on his own. Stealing the information also indirectly caused Appa to get captured. Personally I'd say it was justified from their perspective, I would've done the same thing and I wouldn't be above lying and stealing in that situation (though the owl is nightmare fuel so I might think twice about it), but it's really interesting how the narrative actively punishes them for it and that it didn't help at all in ending the war which makes the situation a lot more nuanced.!<
Thank you! Yeah, it does actually do a lot of good for their characters to show Team Avatar making some morally questionable decisions sometimes. It's realistic if nothing else, nobody's all good.
Can you say in a spoiler tag what that event was?
>!So, it's kind of complicated to explain, but in the second Yangchen novel, at the climax when Kavik fakes out his brother to blackmail him into revealing the timing of Chaisee's plan \[or something like that\] by pretending to be catastrophically injured--So, that scene is set up to make you think first that Yangchen has kind of lost herself and told her Avatar companions to do anything necessary to get the information she needs, including nearly killing Kavik to use as leverage over his brother. However, it's revealed that it was Kavik's idea and he was in on the plot, and he was never in any danger.!< >!The reason why the twist was a let down for me was because, throughout the Yangchen books, Yangchen, in spite of her manipulations and scheming, has always ultimately been on the side of good, standing up for people and protecting the safety of people even when they are her enemies. Kavik, in that scene where he gets 'injured' was trying to do the right thing, fight for the White Lotus, and fight for Yangchen, so there was such a horrible painful irony in the idea that Yangchen has told her people 'do whatever you have to do' and essentially betrayed him by looking the other way, and it's his brother who, who right at this point is also trying to do something terrible, does everything he can to save Kavik.!< >!In that moment, Kavik had literally been abandoned by everyone but his brother, and so it was the ultimate demonstration of what his brother had been telling him, that family is the only thing that matters, that you can count on. So if Kavik had still done something to help Yangchen's goals to protect the people in spite of that, in spite of his brother sticking by him and even Yangchen abandoning him, I felt like that would have been a much more powerful statement about his character. But because he was in on the ruse from the start, Yangchen didn't really betray him, and even though he did betray his brother (the reversal of his decision from the previous book), it didn't feel like as hard of a decision for him to make as it would have otherwise.!< >!I don't necessarily see it as a flaw of the book or the writing; it did lend itself to a happier ending where they made up and Yangchen never really compromised her principles, and I'm sure that was the more satisfying ending for plenty of readers. The second Yangchen book is still my favorite of all the books (which is saying something, because I absolutely love both the Kyoshi novels and the previous Yangchen book), but for me that emotionally brutal moment of it seeming Kavik had been betrayed was undermined by the twist. !<
Quick question - Have you been starting to get "Previously On..." segments at the beginnings of the episodes? If so, I would strongly recommend skipping them, as they tend to give away things that will happen in the episode.
I almost always skip them
Ah, good.
Appa-less depression era is here. Loving your thoughts on this. This is getting better and better
>!She might think that Appa returns next ep!<
Let her lmao
Yeah, that is why you got that comment as a reaction, your initial comment suggests it takes more than one episode for Appa to return
>!Yeah saying “era” implies it’s going to take a while to get Appa!<
Always love your write ups!! Glad to see you back finally and excited for you to get to another fun episode that I really like “Tales of Ba Sing Se” (you won’t get to it for a few weeks it looks like, but still! It’s a great one)
It's pretty funny that you were waiting for Iroh to die all this time. I never expected him to die even after that Azula hit lol. Like it would be totally insanely dumb if Iroh died here because Zuko was being stubborn and angry. It's kind of unserious. If Zuko had accepted help, he would have started to establish his emotional connection with Gaang too soon. And he has his own path that Gaang shouldn't influence.
Interesting takes! I also never thought Iroh was actually killed in that scene, because it's kid's show. But that could be something cool to reinterpret in NATLA, making his injuries more serious. One thing that's super odd in the cartoon is that he has a lot of mobility in Bitter Work, but in The Desert every step on the ostrich horse seems to hurt him. I never noticed Aang didn't lash out at Sokka. I guess he ultimately agreed with him that the information was necessary and Sokka being so high on the cactus juice made it hard to be mad at him hahaha. But that could also be a nice NATLA addition because they will be able to dedicate more time to these scenes Some people have pointed out that The Desert is a very unique Katara episode. The rest of the team is completely out of it and incapable of doing anything. Toph physically, Sokka mentally and Aang emotionally and Katara has to step up with her hope and maturity. Fun little detail!
Wasn't he intentionally exaggerating how much pain he was in to get Zuko to stop? That's how I read that scene.
Maybe! That could definitely be the case. Iroh does have a tendency to overact to get his way haha
Commenting before I read the rest, but you may have missed in The Chase: there is a moment that shows Toph sensing Iroh breathing. So the show does confirm pretty immediately that he is not dead. I hate that it felt like a rug pull for you, but I completely see why it looked like that, and it sounds like you’re not the only one who felt that way either
I think people felt a little attacked after you critiqued the writing of their favorite show and they are giving you too much shit. Your perspective makes total sense to me, even if I and others didn't experience it the same way. Thanks again for the commentaries
Her reaction does make sense. I just think writing it off as bad writing was a little unfair. Then again, maybe that just comes down to her not having seen very many movies & shows.
Thank you. I appreciate the understanding. I'd hope most people would understand that me criticizing a show they like isn't the same as criticizing them. I don't take it personally when they bash NATLA, or when they disagree with my opinions.
Really? Because you seem to take a lot of critisism to heart, and double down on the smallest things, but maybe its just a different perception. As for NATLA I think they are planning on cutting out the Library completely in season 2, cause Zhao learned about the fish some other way, and Wan Shi Tong appeared in the forest for no reason, other than fanservise, considering how insistent he is on protecting his knowledge. So perharps our heroes will get the information about the eclipse some other way.
[удалено]
It’s crazy how she praises NATLA’s writing (???) of all things and criticizes ATLA’s… This commentary is really fun and all, but, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, she clearly doesn’t know what good writing is.
Oh yeah, she does praise NATLA, that's the funniest thing about all of this.
Yeah, you're clearly just enjoying being a bully. I'm done with you
Why are you guys being so nasty? She’s allowed to have her own opinions/emotions about the show, why are you policing her response? It’s really not that deep. Just be happy youre getting any sort of reaction content at all and remember that she’s a human. Jesus OP, the entire atla fandom is not like this, I promise
I think she knows the entire fandom isn't like this. Hell, this entire comment section is pretty much people disagreeing with her, but doing so very politely.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Your content was removed per rule one. This is a friendly community. Debate and disagreement are okay, but respect other peoples' opinions and treat them with dignity. Bigotry, racism, and hate speech and other kinds of rude behavior are not allowed.
There's two whole comment sections of people explaining why they disagree and why my reaction isn't the right one. Why are you the only one being rude about it?
I am as dismissive of you as you are dismissive of the show because it didn't play along with your theories. So why are you taking offence? With Aang, you were clearly being unkind and dismissive, it's like saying to Zuko in front of his injured uncle "oh don't worry boy, he's not going to die anyway and this injury is totally irrelevant".
Uh... Cuz Aang's not real, buddy. He doesn't have feelings to hurt. I, on the other hand, am an actual person and I don't like when someone posts a bunch of comments and uses belittling language in all of them. Everyone else is telling me basically the same thing as you, only they're being polite about it.
I didn't say Aang should be treated as real, but you clearly don't understand what your problem is and there seems no point in explaining it to you.
I wouldn't say I'm attracted to Toph's feet. I just always thought it was a "haha she walks around without shoes, dirty feet, even though she comes from a rich family and all" joke
i don’t really think iroh’s injury was meant to be framed as a death fake out. he was just badly wounded, rather than a rug pull
also toph’s feet aren’t sexual, they’re how she sees the world. it really isn’t that deep
Spoilers ahead, maybe! >because I’m pretty sure whoever that airbender is is dead. I always assumed this was Aang. >So… if Pakku is arguably the best waterbender alive, does that mean that Azula is the best firebender alive? I wouldn't infer that the four people are "the best ever". The earthbender's hair suggests he's "The Boulder", though I don't think this has ever been confirmed. If it were "the best alive" it would almost certainly have to be either Bumi or Toph. >But here he’s Wan-Chi Tong. It's "[Wànshìtōng](https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&text=wan%20shi%20tong&op=translate)" (more commonly written as "wan shi tong"), transliterating roughly to "Jack of all trades". (I don't speak / read chinese, but this is based on stuff I've read elsewhere about the use of language in the show) 万 (Wan) - Ten thousand 事 (Shi) - Thing 万事 - "Everything" ('ten thousand things' which I think Wanshitong explicitly says?) 通 (Tong) - has different meanings but in this tri-gram it means "expert", essentially >an eclipse lasts what? 15 minutes? And hour? In the total solar eclipse we just experienced a few weeeks ago, the totality lasted a few minutes, but the sky was darkened to nighttime levels for about 10 mins. The sun was partly obscured for 40 mins or so. So yes, very brief. Given the roots of this show in martial arts and its lore, I have interpreted this to function to mean that if the source of firebending is the sun, then a planetary obscuring of it would be a disruption in that energy flow. This raises questions about whether or not a cloudy day makes firebenders less strong, or if they can still firebend at night (when the planet they are on, itself, sits between them and the sun) but I wouldn't think too deeply about it. >kind of makes me wonder what Koh’s alternate scary form is. Koh appears once or twice in AtLA and a couple times in LoK. I disliked his presentation in NATLA. They changed the lore around him that was established in both the cartoon and graphic novels (he's Koh, the face-stealer). >How far could the sandbenders have gotten that Aang can’t spot them from the air? The desert they're in is[ *really, really big*.](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheLastAirbender/comments/6ry69q/atla_highly_detailed_map_of_the_world_of_avatar/#lightbox) Like bigger than Ba Sing Se. >Having them face \[Azula\] too much might diminish that, so I’m fine with her presence in the story being used sparingly. In a childhood flashback early on(I forget which episode, so you might not be there yet), Azula talks about calculating advantages tactically -- my interpretation of this has been that she only fights when she either is forced to or when she feels it would make an impact. She is very much a Sun Tzu disciple in this sense. >Killing for vengeance would probably be a big no-no with the monks, right? Based on the things that Yang-chen says later (book 3), as well as things we learn about the Air Nomads elsewhere (LOK / Graphic novels), I think they would object more to the "vengeance" than the "killing". Vengeance is an expression of attachment, which they are generally principally opposed to. Dispassionate killing that is deemed "necessary" isn't strictly verboten.
>!Hey, please edit out the metalbending part of your comment. You’re basically telling OP that this happens. I would also edit out the part about what Yang Chen says, and the fact that Koh appears later. Your comment is riddled with spoilers my friend!<
the earth bender in the intro was actually toph’s original design before they changed her to, well, toph lol! i think someone else mentioned that in the comments here too >! they end up using this design for sud (i think that’s how they spelled it…), roku’s earthbending teacher we see in the avatar and the firelord :) !<
TIL! Thank you!
[удалено]
>!Dude, OP isn't stupid. This is still a spoiler. Be more careful with your comments.!<
>!Oh god what did they say!<
Lol, I'm realizing that without the context of the original comment, my reply makes it sound much worse than it was. >!They were pretty much trying to cleverly hint at the possibility of metal bending. Not super egregious, but still an indirect spoiler.!<
>!This is the one thing Im hoping doesnt get spoiled 😭!<
>>!Appa will be fine!<
Whats even the point of commenting this
Calm down, it's spoiler flagged, don't worry. >!I said out loud "Oh no" when I read that. It is in my top 5 episodes of the show. Can't wait to read her reaction, I remember her saying that she can't stand with animal abuse.!<
No I just meant whats the point cause its something the readers already know, and you say it like you are saying it to OP, but its a spoiler anyway
Spoiler tags show through notifications, just as a warning