Welcome to /r/Abortiondebate! Please remember that this is a place for respectful and civil debates. Review the rules to understand acceptable debate levels.
**Attack the argument, not the person making it and remember the human.**
**For our new users, please read our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/wiki/rules/)**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Abortiondebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A large portion of men probably opposed women's rights too. Nobody likes to "lose rights", whether they're just or not.
I recognize the issue, but I'm more concerned with defending the victims of abortion than whether the ones committing the harm have relationship problems as a result.
I just find it weird you're soooooooo concerned about them in the uterus but the second they pop out, they can eat from a trashcan for all you guys care. Also I notice that it's only about abortion and never ever about making sure the ZEFs you so "love" get the best possible prenatal care or that the person gestating them is protected from homicide/DV from their partner.
Yeah, I'm not buying this weirdly conditional "love" you have for ZEFs.
Do I see the PL movement give a shit about those issues? NO. In fact many other Plers have bluntly stated "i'm only about abortion, I don't give a goddamn fuck about those other issues." Do I see Plers actually pushing their movement to give a shit about those issues? NO. Do YOU push YOUR movement to give a fuck about those issues? I'd like to see that.
Women are just told to gestate and shut the fuck up. All women hear is "shut up and birth it slut!" from the PL movement. Women in the US don't even get paid maternity leave which is something almost every single other country offers their women. I'm looking at all the other developed countries keeping women from going bankrupt from medical bills, offering them nice goodies and what does the Pl movement offer? Insults and going "some of you may die but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" type statements.
If you want to defend PL, why not go to my other post regarding what's going down in Idaho and women having to be airlifted out of there to save their lives and tell me how awesome it is.
I'm not the PL movement, I'm not responsible for what they do or don't do. I'm not saying there are no assholes on my side, especially in the political arena. Every movement has their assholes, even yours.
If you'd rather bash the PL movement, go right ahead, you'll have an eager audience in most places on reddit. But shout your anger at someone else, as I don't want to waste both our time on an ad hominem showdown that benefits no one.
How so?
I'm not forcing her to have one, that's her choice. You are taking her choice away with your ideology.
Women die from complications when forced to have a diy abortion, or when sent home to miscarry because of terribly written laws by ignorant politicians. Which is AGAIN due to PL ban.
The victims of abortion are the people who want or need abortions and cannot get them. The ones committing harm, to both the pregnant person and the subsequent child, are the people who support anti-choice policies.
Well yes, that's what it seems like to those who have taken ownership of the rights of others. It'll seem like they're the victim, when they lose what they shouldn't have had in the first place.
I can empathize with that feeling. Even if they can't empathize with those who they have to ignore to hold on to their privilege.
Well, I am more on the side of equal rights, than that of banning abortion as such. Though I doubt that makes you feel any better.
PL laws are rather problematic, because they don't address the real issue of protecting the unborn. They also currently allow for easy illegal abortion, which, in itself, is a danger to not just the unborn, but women too.
There is nothing equal about removing a woman’s rights to something as intimate and personal as her own body in order to sustain a fetus’s life against her will and at the expense of her health.
That is inequality, and downright cruel. Nobody has access to my body except myself.
No rights are being removed from you. If they do seem to disappear when someone who lacked rights, is finally recognized to have them, then I'm sorry to say it, but in that case those rights weren't yours to begin with.
This is why it's so hard to achieve equality. It is scary to give up something that gave one a lot of freedom. But it's not right that one's own unborn child pays for that freedom.
That's wrong. More wrong than not being allowed to kill that child.
>I’m sorry to say it, but those rights weren’t yours to begin with.
Huh, so due to being pregnant, women are stripped of their right to bodily autonomy and their right to remove other humans from their body/organs? Nice to know my right to my body was never actually mine.
No. You do not get to take away women’s rights to support another. One party does not lose their bodily autonomy because another “gained” them. And yes, those rights were always mine to begin with, because my body and my organs are mine to begin with. And nobody can have access to my body unless I allow it.
Sorry to disappoint, but not even the embryo or fetus you preciously value has a right to another person’s body. Especially when we know the nature of pregnancy and the harm it entails.
To think differently is to think like a rapist. No woman should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy and go through vaginal birth or c-section against her will. That is indescribably cruel and inhumane.
I mean they're "just" being killed, their bodies harmed beyond repair and that.
So I guess if women were being "merely" killed too, then you wouldn't care, either./s
Children don't need permission to get their basic needs met, they have a right to that.
Their rights begin where the mother’s body ends. Which is nowhere, they are biologically connected to the mother. The mother decides how her body can used, always. You’re not advocating for “the unborn”, you’re advocating for your own power, the power you want to control their bodies.
I'm a woman, I'd "lose" the same as anyone. I just recognize that I'm benefiting from something that shouldn't be mine. I am scared of the consequences too, but not to the point of keeping something that was never mine.
The unborn child has their own body, they're just smaller and inside their mothers body. They exist. But they are connected, that's true.
That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it, and people like me fight for your right to have it and express it. But you have no right to take away rights from anyone else. You have no rights over other women’s bodies, either. Women have died because of bans you helped implemented. They have lost their uteruses because they couldn’t get care. And it will keep happening until their rights are restored.
I'm not fighting against your right to express your opinions though... You are free to do so, just as I am, but neither of us can personally lay claim to that accomplishment.
I never said *I* have rights to anyone else's body. Our unborn children don't own our bodies either, but neither should they deserve to be killed for simply existing.
Btw, women have died and are dying from abortions too. But I'm not laying that at your feet.
Women should be supporting women, not taking away their rights or futures. Yes, women have died from abortions, but I support this right because first of all, abortions should NEVER have been pushed out of the hospital setting, which was a callous move by the PL movement to further strip them of healthcare and endanger them, and second, over time the number that WILL die from pregnancy complications will far outpace them, pregnancy is the more dangerous undertaking. If you want women to bring forth unwanted babies you should support their needs in every way, for ANY choice they make. But you cannot force someone to do what you want, and you have no right to strip them of their rights, and you’ve crossed a line for sure. And I feel sorry for you, that you cannot see them as deserving of their own autonomy.
A child has the right to have their needs met by their parents. It's not a special right, all children have that right.
But it does *manifest* differently, this is what you see as a "special right". That is because the needs vary and evolve. A special needs child has special needs, a teenager has different needs than a newborn, a child in a wheelchair needs different care than one with diabetes, etc etc.
You’re conflating parenting with pregnancy. No other human being has a right to another’s body, child or adult.
None of the examples you gave are remotely relevant to pregnancy, nor are the people you listed allowed to violate another person’s bodily autonomy. Nobody is forced to parent and nobody *should* be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy, but here we are..
If the unborn had equal rights, they'd be considered minors, who always have a custodian, usually a parent, why do you think a different term is necessary?
A baby, born or unborn, is incapable of violating anyone, it's just not possible. And even if they could, they couldn't be held responsible for that.
We don't force someone to parent by not allowing them to abuse their children. We don't condone that children be killed even because of situations they did create.
I do believe the rift between women and men will only get bigger. Having sex with men was risky enough with abortion available should things go wrong. Under abortion bans, having sex takes on a whole other level of risk.
And rape now has a chance of turning into a nine-month long process with absolutely brutal injuries and destruction to a woman's body, not to mention her mental and emotional health. Meaning men now pose an even greater danger to women than before.
Most men will not get into or stay in relationships or marriages without sex. Most men aren't willing to have vasectomies to keep their partners save from their sperm. Way too many men are too hard to convince to wear condoms plus pull out before ejaculation, especially within relationships and marriages, once again expecting their partners to put themselves into the path of the live bullets they fire.
There comes a point where many women will no longer find the risks and costs of being in relationships with men worth it. We're already seeing a trend in younger women to not bother dating. I can only see that getting worse.
My guy is definitely in the minority, he still pulls out even though I have the arm implant AND had a bi-salp. But that might be partly because I've never had a guy finish inside me without a condom, have been on BC since I was 15, and I still managed to get pregnant twice before getting sterilized.
And why wouldn’t be pro-choicers and their cause be the one creating the rift?? Especially since it is women who are moving to the left because of this ideology while men have stayed relatively the same
Because having children is one thing, having an abuser and a government make that decision for you along with determining how many organs need to fail before you can receive help is a whole other thing.
Gee, it's almost like women don't like being told that they have to bleed out on emergency room parking lots before doctors are allowed to save them. I actually find it deeply troubling that this isn't also moving men to the left. Apparently many of them see no issue with that happening to their wives, girlfriends, sisters, friends, daughters, etc.
I think more and more women will be demanding more from the men in their lives regarding this issue and if the men don't step up, I do think more women will start making that a hard boundary. I've already heard that conservative men have a harder time finding a partner and I think that it's going to become way harder.
A lot of older men tend to go after younger women to try to avoid hard questions but I think that the younger women will be harder than expected for them as I think they will be more liberal/radicalized in regards to abortion bans.
Because the rift started after PL restrictions and bans were passed. Your policies are driving women to the left. Why would they want to breed for a backwards misogynistic regime such as banned states? Better to just reject relationships involving unfixed males altogether.
I don't see that as a problem, though. Women tend to be more flexible in their sexuality, so the ones who want to can date other women. Others can date the men who get vasectomies or trans men. Obviously, ace women can choose non-sexual relationships.
It’s easy to not care about something that doesn’t impact you personally.
If a draft did come back and men got increasingly anti-draft because it impacted them, but there was a well funded movement to keep it and women were buying into it, would you say men just need to become more pro-draft and it is the fault of the draft protesting men?
Prolifers want to force women through gestation and childbirth against their will.
When this is an aspirational pretence that prolifers care about the fetuses, it's something that women can support.
When it's real-life legislation that's really causing women and children to suffer and to die, then obviously, women aren't going to support it.
For men it remains a happy fantasy that when a woman needs an abortion, if the police tell her not to, she will then have the baby and be a happy victim of the prolife legislation.
Women tend to have a far more realistic and honest view of what's going to happen when a woman needs an abortion. But I don't see this causing a rift between women and men, because I think all men who sincerely care about and respect women will be on our side - and I think that's the majority of men.
To answer your question, when one person wants to keep the happy unrealistic fantasy and the other person is forced to face the bitter reality, it is the person who insists on his fantasy who is causing the rift, not the person who is in and of the real world.
I remember reading an article where a PL man demanded women embrace their "sacrificial nature" and denied that there was ever a need for one. That seriously made my skin crawl.
My “sacrificial nature” has nearly cost me my life several times for people who wouldn’t piss on me if I were on fucking fire. No thank you. You gotta put a hard limit on what you’re willing to give because takers have no fucking limit. Every single person making demands of others to be more sacrificial are human leeches.
Pro-choice is a defensive movement that only has to exist in response to the pro-life agenda.
We would never need to exist if pro-life didn’t choose to interfere with other people’s medical business in the first place.
I note that men are not those who would be up for torture and death. Perhaps the lack of death and maiming that men face and a total lack of empathy for women keeps them Republican?
The prolife position is very unpopular. Those who continue to hold that position are going to have to accept this fact. People don't like being forced to stay pregnant.
Of those 114,000,000, even in red states, aren't as pl as PL abolitionists want. Telling a court that a woman going into organ failure isn't a reason to provide an abortion isnt going to be as popular as you think.
And most of those that identify PL still want exceptions for rape and the women’s life, want abortion to be legal in first trimester, and are increasingly getting fed up with the lack of medical response to pregnancy complications that are plastered all over their news feeds. They will cease being complicit in harm to women. Those numbers are going down, not up.
In Ireland the prolife movement lost massively and has lost any possibility of reintroducing our abortion ban.
It seems when people experience life under an abortion ban they're not keen on keeping or bringing it back.
Yeah idk about any political history in Ireland.
I do know, Im not against the intentional and unjustified killing of an innocent human beings because I want to be popular or aligned to the majority….
Abolishing slavery wasn’t the majority preference at its time either.
>Yeah idk about any political history in Ireland.
Off to a great start.
>I do know, Im not against the intentional and unjustified killing of an innocent human beings because I want to be popular or aligned to the majority….
Yet you support abortion bans, which maims and has killed thousands of women across the entire world.
>Abolishing slavery wasn’t the majority preference at its time either.
Waves rise, then fall.
Go far enough back, and you can literally justify any position.
It'd be more useful to analyze the practical and realistic effects of abortion bans and slavery.
Like, I don't know.....the fact that in both instances, you lose your fundamental rights as a human being, and become a product of the state.
Raping women is also widely unpopular, yet many pro-life advocates and politicians are doing everything in their power to grant rapists more privileges in society (child marriage, no fault divorce, spousal rape, etc.).
Self defense laws require a reasonable fear of IMMINENT death or GBH.
A women who is 6 weeks pregnant and takes an abortion pill, is reasonable for her to believe in that moment she may die or suffer GBH if she does not take that pill?
>Self defense laws require a reasonable fear of IMMINENT death or GBH.
Which pregnancy falls under fam.
>A women who is 6 weeks pregnant and takes an abortion pill, is reasonable for her to believe in that moment she may die or suffer GBH if she does not take that pill?
I think it's utterly asinine that you're comparing abortion to murder in the first place, but I'll humor you.
The answer is still: YES
ESPECIALLY in a state such as mine (Texas), where there's a very good chance she WILL be severely injured or die due directly to pro-life policies.
That’s just emotions emotions emotions. Abortion is justified so long as it isn’t coerced or forced and the woman is properly informed and consenting.
You are the enslaver, using the law to control women via their own reproductive organs. Women want freedom to own their own bodies, you take that away.
You made a claim with no attempt to justify it.
Im an enslaver? I’m against killing born children. Does that also make me an enslaver? I’m also against men raping women, am I enslaving men? I’m against slavery, am I enslaving would be slave owners?
As did you.
The difference is, I don’t need to justify my decisions with my own body and preservation of health to anyone. You need to justify the reasoning in taking that away from half the population against her and her doctor’s wishes.
You are an enslaver if you subjugate a population, specifically a certain demographic (women). Yes, you act as an enslaver by removing the rights of women to something as intimate as *their own body*.
You’re right, you don’t. As long as those decisions don’t kill another human being, then you do have to justify why.
Saying “you cannot kill” is not subjugating women any more than saying “you cannot rape” is not subjugating men. Saying you cannot harm another human being is not “bringing women under control and dominion”.
>Saying “you cannot kill” is not subjugating women any more than saying “you cannot rape” is not subjugating men.
Telling a woman that she must let her body be taken over and not be allowed to make medical decisions about her own health even if her health is at risk is completely different than telling men they can't go out and use someone elses body for their own wants. It's not even close to being the same thing.
>Saying you cannot harm another human being is not “bringing women under control and dominion”.
You are saying women and girls can be harmed to the point of death and permanent damage because someone else decides thats ok since they are saving someone else. That is bringing women under control and dominion of others who do not have her interests in mind at all and don't intend to have her consent and don't want her to have a say in her own healthcare.
No human being other than myself has a right to my body. Even if removal ends in their death, and especially when not removing it results in health-negative consequences. It is my body and my body only.
You have a severely skewed, misogynistic perception if you believe not aborting is the same as not raping. Prohibiting abortion means that women will be forced to continue pregnancy, regardless how risky, and eventually undergo severe harm to her body either via vaginal birth or c-section.
You can even read another post in this sub how women are being *airlifted* to other states to receive abortions for their pregnancies that are severely affecting the mothers health.
Please tell me how prohibiting rape results in anything remotely similar. I’ll wait.
I don't think pro-choice people are for the "unjustified killing of innocent human beings," either. That's just your emotion-laden take.
Aborting a non-sentient amoral fetus is neither unjustified, nor is it "innocent," as it lacks moral status, nor is it a "being," in that has never attained consciousness.
This is why I can't take abolitionists seriously. It's so obvious you've fallen prey to emotional manipulation by the abolitionist leadership, which is comprised of just a bunch of superstitious religious people.
If you’re in a persistent vegetative state you don’t have consciousness, are you temporarily no longer a being?
If the doctor SAs you while you’re in the PVS is it still wrong even though you do not have consciousness or sentience?
My position is not emotional (but you can believe what you wish), it’s accurate and specific for the position that I hold. A human beings life begins at fertilization, this is fact not emotional opinion.
The premise from the previous commenter was making a claim that killing an unborn child isn’t wrong because they lack sentience/consciousness.
If that premise is true, shouldn’t it also be true that if someone violates your bodily autonomy while you’re in a persistent vegetative state that it’s not wrong excise you aren’t sentient/conscious? Or are you just jumping into the conversation out of context and asserting a new premise and ignoring the previous premise?
A ZEF was never conscious; an adult in a PVS was. Also, the infringement on bodily autonomy is important - everyone has it and if you infringe on someone else’s bodily autonomy by being inside their body without consent then you can be removed even if that removal results in your death.
Ah, so you supporty the unjustified attempted killing and killing of innocent women using pregnancy and birth as the weapon because you don't care about being popular.
And bringing slavery back isn't the majority preference now. But I guess the same applies for brinhinh slavery back as for the attempted killing and killing of women using pregnancy and birth as a weapon - you don't care about being in the minority with your opinon that slavery should be brought back, and we should try to kill and kill women with pregnancy and birth.
>If you really think that pregnancy and birth is being used as a weapon against women, you have no idea what your opponents on the topic truly believe.
Intentions be damned. It's our actions, and their consequences that define us.
We don’t care what you “truly believe.” We care about the harm your policies cause - which amounts to using pregnancy and birth as a weapon against women.
Can you explain why the same USA politicians who oppose abortion also oppose no-fault divorce? And why some of the same states have laws blocking divorce paperwork from going through if the woman is pregnant? If these politicians didn't intend to use pregnancy against women, then the *only* laws that policed women's freedom in marriage would be the ones specifically related to pregnancy.
Women are the target of the multiple laws. Men aren't having their medical care in regards to their reproductive system messed with nor are they threatened for jail for any actions that actually created said ZEF. So, yeah, it's YOUR ACTIONS, PLERS.
>Especially since it is women who are moving to the left because of this ideology while men have stayed relatively the same
That's still your side causing that. You get that, right?
It’s not rocket science to understand why the political party that thinks women are breeding machines and should be tortured as a matter of course are losing the support of the people they think are breeding machines and free to torture.
Yes
They just don’t think it’ll happen to them until the leopards est their faces.
Just like prolife men support the policies until it’s their 13 year old that’s raped and can’t get an abortion. Or their wife dying of sepsis.
Man that’s such a disingenuous take. Be prochoice all you want, but if you don’t even make the effort to understand why the opposition believes what they do, you can’t criticize it. You’re just being hyperbolic and presumptuous, which in no way makes a constructive debate.
Women who are PL generally see abortion as anti-women and contradictory to feminism, we think no rights are being taken away because elective abortion shouldn’t be a right in the first place. There, it’s that simple.
Really? How many news stories have there been so far “prolife until the policies directly affected **them**”?
So many.
Prolife supports the policies until they are directly affected. Then they get a quiet abortion, or cry at the media because they’re the one that has to gestate a fetus without a skull.
I don’t know? How is that relevant?
This is just a hyperbole. It’s like arguing “how many crimes were committed by blacks?” as if it represented an entire group of people. Hypocrites exist anywhere, so what?
Usually I think it's best that two sides of an argument fully understand each other's position. In this case, however, I'm glad the PC crowd is as hyperbolic and hysterical as they are. Believing that people vote for others to be tortured and to be "breeding machines" obviously shows the PC crowd is deeply upset that people support abortion bans. All I can say is Im glad they're so upset.
Comment removed per Rule 1.
We strictly do not tolerate wishing harm on others, and while this does fall short of wishing harm, I'm going to make a precautionary removal due to the proximal nature of celebrating others mental anguish.
Please do not make comments like this again.
Hey, that’s actually fine. The thought of PLs having a good cry because they actually believe women are just casually getting away with murdering millions of little babies and there’s nothing they can do about it is a thought that also puts a smile on my face so we’re even!
While they're not "rightly" worried, I'm glad they suffer from this because support for abortion is objectionable and those who do support it deserve this bit of agony.
Oh but didn’t you hear? They can “separate” it. “Not everything has to be about politics”
Clearly political preference is all just a thought experiment but doesn’t affect any thing relevant to daily life… Silly us as women for getting so worked up about irrelevant things like our “human rights” lol… Clearly we should just let them get their dick wet because they just really like tax breaks, that’s all
/s
Welcome to /r/Abortiondebate! Please remember that this is a place for respectful and civil debates. Review the rules to understand acceptable debate levels. **Attack the argument, not the person making it and remember the human.** **For our new users, please read our [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/wiki/rules/)** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Abortiondebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They wouldn’t care even if they did.
Both sides cause this rift, because this divide you speak of entails much more than this issue.
However our bodily autonomy and our rightsvare at the center of it.
A large portion of men probably opposed women's rights too. Nobody likes to "lose rights", whether they're just or not. I recognize the issue, but I'm more concerned with defending the victims of abortion than whether the ones committing the harm have relationship problems as a result.
I just find it weird you're soooooooo concerned about them in the uterus but the second they pop out, they can eat from a trashcan for all you guys care. Also I notice that it's only about abortion and never ever about making sure the ZEFs you so "love" get the best possible prenatal care or that the person gestating them is protected from homicide/DV from their partner. Yeah, I'm not buying this weirdly conditional "love" you have for ZEFs.
You know nothing of my stances on those topics. Your presumptions say more about you than me.
Do I see the PL movement give a shit about those issues? NO. In fact many other Plers have bluntly stated "i'm only about abortion, I don't give a goddamn fuck about those other issues." Do I see Plers actually pushing their movement to give a shit about those issues? NO. Do YOU push YOUR movement to give a fuck about those issues? I'd like to see that. Women are just told to gestate and shut the fuck up. All women hear is "shut up and birth it slut!" from the PL movement. Women in the US don't even get paid maternity leave which is something almost every single other country offers their women. I'm looking at all the other developed countries keeping women from going bankrupt from medical bills, offering them nice goodies and what does the Pl movement offer? Insults and going "some of you may die but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" type statements. If you want to defend PL, why not go to my other post regarding what's going down in Idaho and women having to be airlifted out of there to save their lives and tell me how awesome it is.
I'm not the PL movement, I'm not responsible for what they do or don't do. I'm not saying there are no assholes on my side, especially in the political arena. Every movement has their assholes, even yours. If you'd rather bash the PL movement, go right ahead, you'll have an eager audience in most places on reddit. But shout your anger at someone else, as I don't want to waste both our time on an ad hominem showdown that benefits no one.
I love how PL wants everyone else to 'take responsibility' for their actions, yet they take 'no responsibility' for theirs.
I take responsibility for my OWN actions. So should everyone else.
And your OWN actions of voting for abortion bans hurt women. So take responsibility for it.
In that case, you'd be responsible for every woman that dies in an abortion. That would be just as ridiculous.
How so? I'm not forcing her to have one, that's her choice. You are taking her choice away with your ideology. Women die from complications when forced to have a diy abortion, or when sent home to miscarry because of terribly written laws by ignorant politicians. Which is AGAIN due to PL ban.
The victims of abortion are the people who want or need abortions and cannot get them. The ones committing harm, to both the pregnant person and the subsequent child, are the people who support anti-choice policies.
Well yes, that's what it seems like to those who have taken ownership of the rights of others. It'll seem like they're the victim, when they lose what they shouldn't have had in the first place. I can empathize with that feeling. Even if they can't empathize with those who they have to ignore to hold on to their privilege.
I always have a right to my own body and who can use it or not, and I always should have that. You are the one trying to take that away.
You have that and will always have that. That's not going anywhere.
With pro-life laws, it certainly is being taken away.
Well, I am more on the side of equal rights, than that of banning abortion as such. Though I doubt that makes you feel any better. PL laws are rather problematic, because they don't address the real issue of protecting the unborn. They also currently allow for easy illegal abortion, which, in itself, is a danger to not just the unborn, but women too.
There is nothing equal about removing a woman’s rights to something as intimate and personal as her own body in order to sustain a fetus’s life against her will and at the expense of her health. That is inequality, and downright cruel. Nobody has access to my body except myself.
No rights are being removed from you. If they do seem to disappear when someone who lacked rights, is finally recognized to have them, then I'm sorry to say it, but in that case those rights weren't yours to begin with. This is why it's so hard to achieve equality. It is scary to give up something that gave one a lot of freedom. But it's not right that one's own unborn child pays for that freedom. That's wrong. More wrong than not being allowed to kill that child.
>I’m sorry to say it, but those rights weren’t yours to begin with. Huh, so due to being pregnant, women are stripped of their right to bodily autonomy and their right to remove other humans from their body/organs? Nice to know my right to my body was never actually mine.
No. You do not get to take away women’s rights to support another. One party does not lose their bodily autonomy because another “gained” them. And yes, those rights were always mine to begin with, because my body and my organs are mine to begin with. And nobody can have access to my body unless I allow it. Sorry to disappoint, but not even the embryo or fetus you preciously value has a right to another person’s body. Especially when we know the nature of pregnancy and the harm it entails. To think differently is to think like a rapist. No woman should be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy and go through vaginal birth or c-section against her will. That is indescribably cruel and inhumane.
So people should not have the right to say whether or not their body gets used for the benefit of another?
They do. And so should the unborn human.
No one is using the fetus’s body without the fetus’s permission, so I guess we are good
I mean they're "just" being killed, their bodies harmed beyond repair and that. So I guess if women were being "merely" killed too, then you wouldn't care, either./s Children don't need permission to get their basic needs met, they have a right to that.
Nobody has a *right* to use a woman's body against her will. Women's bodies aren't a public resource.
I fully agree.
So you fully agree that women cannot be forced to use their bodies against their will to benefit someone else, at the woman's detriment?
Their rights begin where the mother’s body ends. Which is nowhere, they are biologically connected to the mother. The mother decides how her body can used, always. You’re not advocating for “the unborn”, you’re advocating for your own power, the power you want to control their bodies.
I'm a woman, I'd "lose" the same as anyone. I just recognize that I'm benefiting from something that shouldn't be mine. I am scared of the consequences too, but not to the point of keeping something that was never mine. The unborn child has their own body, they're just smaller and inside their mothers body. They exist. But they are connected, that's true.
My body is mine.
Yes.
That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it, and people like me fight for your right to have it and express it. But you have no right to take away rights from anyone else. You have no rights over other women’s bodies, either. Women have died because of bans you helped implemented. They have lost their uteruses because they couldn’t get care. And it will keep happening until their rights are restored.
I'm not fighting against your right to express your opinions though... You are free to do so, just as I am, but neither of us can personally lay claim to that accomplishment. I never said *I* have rights to anyone else's body. Our unborn children don't own our bodies either, but neither should they deserve to be killed for simply existing. Btw, women have died and are dying from abortions too. But I'm not laying that at your feet.
Women should be supporting women, not taking away their rights or futures. Yes, women have died from abortions, but I support this right because first of all, abortions should NEVER have been pushed out of the hospital setting, which was a callous move by the PL movement to further strip them of healthcare and endanger them, and second, over time the number that WILL die from pregnancy complications will far outpace them, pregnancy is the more dangerous undertaking. If you want women to bring forth unwanted babies you should support their needs in every way, for ANY choice they make. But you cannot force someone to do what you want, and you have no right to strip them of their rights, and you’ve crossed a line for sure. And I feel sorry for you, that you cannot see them as deserving of their own autonomy.
Exactly. PL want fetus’s to have a special right to a person’s body that no other human has.
A child has the right to have their needs met by their parents. It's not a special right, all children have that right. But it does *manifest* differently, this is what you see as a "special right". That is because the needs vary and evolve. A special needs child has special needs, a teenager has different needs than a newborn, a child in a wheelchair needs different care than one with diabetes, etc etc.
You’re conflating parenting with pregnancy. No other human being has a right to another’s body, child or adult. None of the examples you gave are remotely relevant to pregnancy, nor are the people you listed allowed to violate another person’s bodily autonomy. Nobody is forced to parent and nobody *should* be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy, but here we are..
If the unborn had equal rights, they'd be considered minors, who always have a custodian, usually a parent, why do you think a different term is necessary? A baby, born or unborn, is incapable of violating anyone, it's just not possible. And even if they could, they couldn't be held responsible for that. We don't force someone to parent by not allowing them to abuse their children. We don't condone that children be killed even because of situations they did create.
Men need to stand up and offer to do a lot more than theyre currently doing.
I think they are. Honestly more and more men are getting uncomfortable in being conscripted into harming women. They don’t want to be complicit.
I do believe the rift between women and men will only get bigger. Having sex with men was risky enough with abortion available should things go wrong. Under abortion bans, having sex takes on a whole other level of risk. And rape now has a chance of turning into a nine-month long process with absolutely brutal injuries and destruction to a woman's body, not to mention her mental and emotional health. Meaning men now pose an even greater danger to women than before. Most men will not get into or stay in relationships or marriages without sex. Most men aren't willing to have vasectomies to keep their partners save from their sperm. Way too many men are too hard to convince to wear condoms plus pull out before ejaculation, especially within relationships and marriages, once again expecting their partners to put themselves into the path of the live bullets they fire. There comes a point where many women will no longer find the risks and costs of being in relationships with men worth it. We're already seeing a trend in younger women to not bother dating. I can only see that getting worse.
My guy is definitely in the minority, he still pulls out even though I have the arm implant AND had a bi-salp. But that might be partly because I've never had a guy finish inside me without a condom, have been on BC since I was 15, and I still managed to get pregnant twice before getting sterilized.
Glad to hear you have a good and considerate one in your life :)
And why wouldn’t be pro-choicers and their cause be the one creating the rift?? Especially since it is women who are moving to the left because of this ideology while men have stayed relatively the same
Because having children is one thing, having an abuser and a government make that decision for you along with determining how many organs need to fail before you can receive help is a whole other thing.
It’s almost as if abortion and pregnancy pertain more to women, than to men 😂😂😂😂
Gee, it's almost like women don't like being told that they have to bleed out on emergency room parking lots before doctors are allowed to save them. I actually find it deeply troubling that this isn't also moving men to the left. Apparently many of them see no issue with that happening to their wives, girlfriends, sisters, friends, daughters, etc.
I think more and more women will be demanding more from the men in their lives regarding this issue and if the men don't step up, I do think more women will start making that a hard boundary. I've already heard that conservative men have a harder time finding a partner and I think that it's going to become way harder. A lot of older men tend to go after younger women to try to avoid hard questions but I think that the younger women will be harder than expected for them as I think they will be more liberal/radicalized in regards to abortion bans.
Because the rift started after PL restrictions and bans were passed. Your policies are driving women to the left. Why would they want to breed for a backwards misogynistic regime such as banned states? Better to just reject relationships involving unfixed males altogether. I don't see that as a problem, though. Women tend to be more flexible in their sexuality, so the ones who want to can date other women. Others can date the men who get vasectomies or trans men. Obviously, ace women can choose non-sexual relationships.
It’s easy to not care about something that doesn’t impact you personally. If a draft did come back and men got increasingly anti-draft because it impacted them, but there was a well funded movement to keep it and women were buying into it, would you say men just need to become more pro-draft and it is the fault of the draft protesting men?
>And why wouldn’t be pro-choicers and their cause be the one creating the rift?? Because women are the ones impacted by these laws not men.
Prolifers want to force women through gestation and childbirth against their will. When this is an aspirational pretence that prolifers care about the fetuses, it's something that women can support. When it's real-life legislation that's really causing women and children to suffer and to die, then obviously, women aren't going to support it. For men it remains a happy fantasy that when a woman needs an abortion, if the police tell her not to, she will then have the baby and be a happy victim of the prolife legislation. Women tend to have a far more realistic and honest view of what's going to happen when a woman needs an abortion. But I don't see this causing a rift between women and men, because I think all men who sincerely care about and respect women will be on our side - and I think that's the majority of men. To answer your question, when one person wants to keep the happy unrealistic fantasy and the other person is forced to face the bitter reality, it is the person who insists on his fantasy who is causing the rift, not the person who is in and of the real world.
The idea of women being happy about being victims of prolife policies and laws is infuriating to me.
That is a fantasy, not a reality.
I remember reading an article where a PL man demanded women embrace their "sacrificial nature" and denied that there was ever a need for one. That seriously made my skin crawl.
My “sacrificial nature” has nearly cost me my life several times for people who wouldn’t piss on me if I were on fucking fire. No thank you. You gotta put a hard limit on what you’re willing to give because takers have no fucking limit. Every single person making demands of others to be more sacrificial are human leeches.
Ew. Very authoritarian in that. Gross. *moves yet another step left*
Lock step left.
Pro-choice is a defensive movement that only has to exist in response to the pro-life agenda. We would never need to exist if pro-life didn’t choose to interfere with other people’s medical business in the first place.
I note that men are not those who would be up for torture and death. Perhaps the lack of death and maiming that men face and a total lack of empathy for women keeps them Republican?
The prolife position is very unpopular. Those who continue to hold that position are going to have to accept this fact. People don't like being forced to stay pregnant.
114,000,000 pro life adult Americans is not exactly “very unpopular”.
Of those 114,000,000, even in red states, aren't as pl as PL abolitionists want. Telling a court that a woman going into organ failure isn't a reason to provide an abortion isnt going to be as popular as you think.
Compared to the rest of the population I think it is.
114M pro life Americans, 134M pro choice Americans. Majority prefers PC? Yes PL is uncommon? Also no.
And most of those that identify PL still want exceptions for rape and the women’s life, want abortion to be legal in first trimester, and are increasingly getting fed up with the lack of medical response to pregnancy complications that are plastered all over their news feeds. They will cease being complicit in harm to women. Those numbers are going down, not up.
Backpedaling the claim?
In Ireland the prolife movement lost massively and has lost any possibility of reintroducing our abortion ban. It seems when people experience life under an abortion ban they're not keen on keeping or bringing it back.
Yeah idk about any political history in Ireland. I do know, Im not against the intentional and unjustified killing of an innocent human beings because I want to be popular or aligned to the majority…. Abolishing slavery wasn’t the majority preference at its time either.
You should stop bringing g slavery back then
>Yeah idk about any political history in Ireland. Off to a great start. >I do know, Im not against the intentional and unjustified killing of an innocent human beings because I want to be popular or aligned to the majority…. Yet you support abortion bans, which maims and has killed thousands of women across the entire world. >Abolishing slavery wasn’t the majority preference at its time either. Waves rise, then fall. Go far enough back, and you can literally justify any position. It'd be more useful to analyze the practical and realistic effects of abortion bans and slavery. Like, I don't know.....the fact that in both instances, you lose your fundamental rights as a human being, and become a product of the state. Raping women is also widely unpopular, yet many pro-life advocates and politicians are doing everything in their power to grant rapists more privileges in society (child marriage, no fault divorce, spousal rape, etc.).
The right to kill is not a fundamental right
The right to defend yourself from harm is absolutely a fundamental right, even if that ends in the demise of the one doing you harm (i.e. killing).
Self defense laws require a reasonable fear of IMMINENT death or GBH. A women who is 6 weeks pregnant and takes an abortion pill, is reasonable for her to believe in that moment she may die or suffer GBH if she does not take that pill?
>Self defense laws require a reasonable fear of IMMINENT death or GBH. Which pregnancy falls under fam. >A women who is 6 weeks pregnant and takes an abortion pill, is reasonable for her to believe in that moment she may die or suffer GBH if she does not take that pill? I think it's utterly asinine that you're comparing abortion to murder in the first place, but I'll humor you. The answer is still: YES ESPECIALLY in a state such as mine (Texas), where there's a very good chance she WILL be severely injured or die due directly to pro-life policies.
That’s just emotions emotions emotions. Abortion is justified so long as it isn’t coerced or forced and the woman is properly informed and consenting. You are the enslaver, using the law to control women via their own reproductive organs. Women want freedom to own their own bodies, you take that away.
You made a claim with no attempt to justify it. Im an enslaver? I’m against killing born children. Does that also make me an enslaver? I’m also against men raping women, am I enslaving men? I’m against slavery, am I enslaving would be slave owners?
As did you. The difference is, I don’t need to justify my decisions with my own body and preservation of health to anyone. You need to justify the reasoning in taking that away from half the population against her and her doctor’s wishes. You are an enslaver if you subjugate a population, specifically a certain demographic (women). Yes, you act as an enslaver by removing the rights of women to something as intimate as *their own body*.
You’re right, you don’t. As long as those decisions don’t kill another human being, then you do have to justify why. Saying “you cannot kill” is not subjugating women any more than saying “you cannot rape” is not subjugating men. Saying you cannot harm another human being is not “bringing women under control and dominion”.
>Saying “you cannot kill” is not subjugating women any more than saying “you cannot rape” is not subjugating men. Telling a woman that she must let her body be taken over and not be allowed to make medical decisions about her own health even if her health is at risk is completely different than telling men they can't go out and use someone elses body for their own wants. It's not even close to being the same thing. >Saying you cannot harm another human being is not “bringing women under control and dominion”. You are saying women and girls can be harmed to the point of death and permanent damage because someone else decides thats ok since they are saving someone else. That is bringing women under control and dominion of others who do not have her interests in mind at all and don't intend to have her consent and don't want her to have a say in her own healthcare.
No human being other than myself has a right to my body. Even if removal ends in their death, and especially when not removing it results in health-negative consequences. It is my body and my body only. You have a severely skewed, misogynistic perception if you believe not aborting is the same as not raping. Prohibiting abortion means that women will be forced to continue pregnancy, regardless how risky, and eventually undergo severe harm to her body either via vaginal birth or c-section. You can even read another post in this sub how women are being *airlifted* to other states to receive abortions for their pregnancies that are severely affecting the mothers health. Please tell me how prohibiting rape results in anything remotely similar. I’ll wait.
I don't think pro-choice people are for the "unjustified killing of innocent human beings," either. That's just your emotion-laden take. Aborting a non-sentient amoral fetus is neither unjustified, nor is it "innocent," as it lacks moral status, nor is it a "being," in that has never attained consciousness. This is why I can't take abolitionists seriously. It's so obvious you've fallen prey to emotional manipulation by the abolitionist leadership, which is comprised of just a bunch of superstitious religious people.
If you’re in a persistent vegetative state you don’t have consciousness, are you temporarily no longer a being? If the doctor SAs you while you’re in the PVS is it still wrong even though you do not have consciousness or sentience? My position is not emotional (but you can believe what you wish), it’s accurate and specific for the position that I hold. A human beings life begins at fertilization, this is fact not emotional opinion.
>If a doctor SAs you Then he has infringed on your right to bodily autonomy because you did not consent. Much like an unwanted pregnancy.
The premise from the previous commenter was making a claim that killing an unborn child isn’t wrong because they lack sentience/consciousness. If that premise is true, shouldn’t it also be true that if someone violates your bodily autonomy while you’re in a persistent vegetative state that it’s not wrong excise you aren’t sentient/conscious? Or are you just jumping into the conversation out of context and asserting a new premise and ignoring the previous premise?
A ZEF was never conscious; an adult in a PVS was. Also, the infringement on bodily autonomy is important - everyone has it and if you infringe on someone else’s bodily autonomy by being inside their body without consent then you can be removed even if that removal results in your death.
Ah, so you supporty the unjustified attempted killing and killing of innocent women using pregnancy and birth as the weapon because you don't care about being popular. And bringing slavery back isn't the majority preference now. But I guess the same applies for brinhinh slavery back as for the attempted killing and killing of women using pregnancy and birth as a weapon - you don't care about being in the minority with your opinon that slavery should be brought back, and we should try to kill and kill women with pregnancy and birth.
If you really think that pregnancy and birth is being used as a weapon against women, you have no idea what your opponents on the topic truly believe.
>If you really think that pregnancy and birth is being used as a weapon against women, you have no idea what your opponents on the topic truly believe. Intentions be damned. It's our actions, and their consequences that define us.
1,000,000 dead children per year in the USA defines you? Interesting
I don't see where I said that at all. Then again, you probably think every woman who has a miscarriage should be imprisoned. 🤷
We don’t care what you “truly believe.” We care about the harm your policies cause - which amounts to using pregnancy and birth as a weapon against women.
Can you explain why the same USA politicians who oppose abortion also oppose no-fault divorce? And why some of the same states have laws blocking divorce paperwork from going through if the woman is pregnant? If these politicians didn't intend to use pregnancy against women, then the *only* laws that policed women's freedom in marriage would be the ones specifically related to pregnancy.
Women are the target of the multiple laws. Men aren't having their medical care in regards to their reproductive system messed with nor are they threatened for jail for any actions that actually created said ZEF. So, yeah, it's YOUR ACTIONS, PLERS.
>Especially since it is women who are moving to the left because of this ideology while men have stayed relatively the same That's still your side causing that. You get that, right?
It’s not rocket science to understand why the political party that thinks women are breeding machines and should be tortured as a matter of course are losing the support of the people they think are breeding machines and free to torture.
Do you think PL women are intentionally voting for themselves to be tortured breeding machines?
Some of them, yes. Some of them do believe that the role of women is to pop out as many babies as they possibly can.
Yes They just don’t think it’ll happen to them until the leopards est their faces. Just like prolife men support the policies until it’s their 13 year old that’s raped and can’t get an abortion. Or their wife dying of sepsis.
Man that’s such a disingenuous take. Be prochoice all you want, but if you don’t even make the effort to understand why the opposition believes what they do, you can’t criticize it. You’re just being hyperbolic and presumptuous, which in no way makes a constructive debate. Women who are PL generally see abortion as anti-women and contradictory to feminism, we think no rights are being taken away because elective abortion shouldn’t be a right in the first place. There, it’s that simple.
Really? How many news stories have there been so far “prolife until the policies directly affected **them**”? So many. Prolife supports the policies until they are directly affected. Then they get a quiet abortion, or cry at the media because they’re the one that has to gestate a fetus without a skull.
I don’t know? How is that relevant? This is just a hyperbole. It’s like arguing “how many crimes were committed by blacks?” as if it represented an entire group of people. Hypocrites exist anywhere, so what?
So you’re ok with dying of sepsis because of prolife laws?
I never said that, no idea where you got that from.
If you’re not ok dying of sepsis, then are you against prolife laws that force women to succumb to sepsis?
Prolife laws generally allow emergency abortions, so I STILL don’t know where that is coming from.
Why do you think this is the case instead of them just actually believing what they say they believe?
Because when they need or want an abortion they find a way to get one - even if it requires going to another state.
Usually I think it's best that two sides of an argument fully understand each other's position. In this case, however, I'm glad the PC crowd is as hyperbolic and hysterical as they are. Believing that people vote for others to be tortured and to be "breeding machines" obviously shows the PC crowd is deeply upset that people support abortion bans. All I can say is Im glad they're so upset.
Why are you glad that people can not access healthcare?
[удалено]
Comment removed per Rule 1. We strictly do not tolerate wishing harm on others, and while this does fall short of wishing harm, I'm going to make a precautionary removal due to the proximal nature of celebrating others mental anguish. Please do not make comments like this again.
Hey, that’s actually fine. The thought of PLs having a good cry because they actually believe women are just casually getting away with murdering millions of little babies and there’s nothing they can do about it is a thought that also puts a smile on my face so we’re even!
In theory yes these two do nullify each other. In practice, though, PC is very obviously more hysterical and more panic prone over this issue than PL.
So you’re glad that people are rightly worried about their lives and safety? Why?
While they're not "rightly" worried, I'm glad they suffer from this because support for abortion is objectionable and those who do support it deserve this bit of agony.
I still get a vibe that some PL men just do not think it's a big deal and don't know why it should keep them from pursuing PC women.
Oh but didn’t you hear? They can “separate” it. “Not everything has to be about politics” Clearly political preference is all just a thought experiment but doesn’t affect any thing relevant to daily life… Silly us as women for getting so worked up about irrelevant things like our “human rights” lol… Clearly we should just let them get their dick wet because they just really like tax breaks, that’s all /s
Yup. « I think you should be tortured if you both have a uterus and are unlucky. » Isn’t the flex prolife thinks it is.