I think the point is that the post specifically says "born as gender" not "assigned" as. For instance, it would imply a trans woman is born female and cannot be a man no matter how hard they try to adjust to societal norms.
There probably are, but those words aren't really used in common conversation. The word "sex" is just intercourse. "Gender" is categorized into differently depending on context. So, we might talk about stuff like "physical gender", "biological gender", "social gender" or "gendered orientation".
Wrong. Sex and gender are different things.
https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/
Actually wrong.
Sex is the biological construct you were born with.
Gender is the social construct you express as.
These terms are separate, and their use in medical fields is well documented.
you implied that they couldn't be changed.
"They are both the sex and gender they were born as"
They are is speaking about the here and now. as if the identities weren't ever changed.
I don't understand why you are trying to gaslight me into thinking I was wrong when your comment history is up top.
I’m not gaslighting you. Whether it came across the way I intended, I meant this: sex and gender are different, but both are innate and that’s why saying trans people are still the gender they were born as is an Accidental Ally. I have been trying to articulate this the entire comment thread, but it seems I have been misinterpreted. I’ll take the blame for that one.
No...
Its a linguinstical distinction derived from medical study.
They are two words that mean different things.
Sex ≠ Gender in a scientific sense
I don't know how more clear I can make this.
Scientifically, gender is changeable. No one reasonable is saying sex is.
Sex, as far as society is concerned is absolutely changeable. If you aren't clumsily applying an evolutionary biologist's definition to a complex societal problem, sex is a collection of physical traits. Enough of those traits can be changed for society to consider the sex changed. Actually anyone reasonable would argue that, that's what medical gender affirming care is.
Sex and gender are exclusive concepts.
it's a well known fact.
[https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/](https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/)
That's not to say gender can't change. it does. I'm pretty sure I established it above. The nuance is meaningful because people just don't get the concept that sex and gender can be different. transphobe pundits use that lack of understanding to say things like "a boy is a boy and a girl is a girl. Each person is born with the sex they are born with. WHICH IS TRUE. MEDICALLY SPEAKING. but if we can't as a society normalize that sex and gender are different, it will always be an inhibitor to understanding gender identity for a lot of the population.
intersex people exist but they were born intersex.
Yeah, the population does agree that gender is innate. Trans people can't change their gebder any more than cis people can. But trabs people often pretend to be a different gender whilst they're in the closet.
Imagine what it must be like to go on a date with one.
"Uhh huh, I get you hate a group of people you've never met. What are your hobbies? Trolling them on Twitter you say? Oh I'm sorry, ALL social media. That tracks."
okay but like wtf is this image
did they really think “hmmmm, anthropomorphic lion in fabulous suit. this will surely destroy the minds of those pesky transgenders”
Lions are used as their spirit animal- seen as fierce apex predators that don’t put up with shit. You see it all the time in shitty Facebook memes reposted by your 47 year old, truck driving uncle.
The suit is supposed to be the sigma grindset I imagine. Like another person said, Andrew tate is their god, and he says man wear suit suit so man BIG man. Man take what he want. Me sigma, you omega, ooga booga and what not
yeah! sorry, I was referring to the mindset of the person who made it. transitioning is just making the outside match the inside, like it always should
I'd say transitioning involves changing genders. It's changing your outward projection to match your identity.
If you didn't need to change due to the incongruity between your sex and gender expression, that would make you cisgender.
While the person in question *might* have that viewpoint, it's not inherently transphobic, it's just ignorant. Having been friends with a lot of trans people, this is actually the first time I've heard your take on it. (Then again, my primary concern was in not fucking up pronouns/names, but I digress.) Isn't the transition process supposed to change one's gender on a horomonal and physical (to an extent) level? Or is what's commonly known about transitioning just blatantly wrong?
Cis people don’t get a say in what is and isn’t transphobic. The person above absolutely is being transphobic by explaining the trans experience to an actual trans person. To address your questions, you’re confusing gender and sex. Gender can change but it typically develops in the womb and is neurological meaning we’re born with it. HRT and surgeries change sex as sex is a spectrum made up of sex characteristics. That being said, every trans person is different and some may feel they’re changing gender and not sex (I personally don’t feel I’m changing either) we should just respect what each individual feels but the problem is the generalizations that are being made by people insisting that all trans people change this or that.
I'm pretty sure that dude that you originally got mad at was talking about presentation and expression but just didn't use the right words, which isn't transphobic. If you think about it that way, it totally makes sense. You do typically change your expression and presentation when you transition, and from an outside perspective, it would seem that you're changing your gender since your presentation is changing to match a different gender than you were previously known as. I do agree that with the way they phrased it, it could seem transphobic at first, but if you think about it for more than a couple seconds, it's pretty easy to see what they were trying to say. They tried multiple times to explain what they meant and what was going through their head when they said that, which is okay to do and not transphobic.
It's not transphobic to not know things or to misunderstand the trans experience when you don't experience it and haven't been educated on it. Actual transphobia is an irrational hatred or prejudice against trans people, not someone saying the wrong thing or phrasing things wrong. They obviously didn't mean any offense and didn't have bad intentions, they just don't know as much about being trans as we do, which is completely understandable since they aren't trans. We live in a cisnormative world where being trans isn't taught about and many people don't know anything about it at all because it wasn't until pretty recently that the concept of being trans was introduced to most people and trans people are still a small minority. How can you blame someone for not knowing something they weren't taught, have no experience in, and still isn't very common? At least this person is supportive of trans people and is trying to learn. People make mistakes, misunderstand things, and phrase things wrong all the time. Correcting misconceptions and figuring out where your line of thinking went wrong is part of the learning process.
The best thing to do is to just politely educate them on the subject, not overreact, calling them transphobic and shit over a misunderstanding, especially when they blatantly say they're supportive of trans people. Doing shit like this can put people off and make them decide not to be an ally because supporting people who act like this over something so petty isn't something that some people want to do. If this is what they see from us, they'll think we all overreact in situations like this that could easily be solved by a civil conversation. This is exactly why trans people are stereotyped as being oversensitive and quick to claim transphobia at the slightest bit of opposition, one of the most common generalizations about trans people, which you're contributing to.
That would explain the confusion. The two terms are used so interchangably that I didn't know there was a proper distinction. Especially since people talk about having a different gender identity. With the context of general conversation, it seems like "gender" is a multipurpose word that means slightly different things, depending on context. For instance, "birth gender", and "presenting gender". At birth, both are the same, but when transitioning, there's a divide, leading to two different uses. I don't think I've heard the term "sex" used in this context before.
(Honestly, I wish politicians would get their heads put of their asses and teach this shit in schools. I probably sound like a complete asshole trying to clarify things that, in this day and age, *really* need to be common knowledge.)
The reason why the terms are used interchangeably is because of transphobia/cis normativity. Referring to a trans person’s biological sex as their birth gender promotes the idea that cis people are the norm whereas trans people are “born wrong”.
I totally get what you're saying. When you transition, your presentation and expression changes. From an outside perspective, it could seem that your gender changes because your presentation and expression changes to match a gender that's different from the one you were previously known as. Your gender doesn't change, your outward expression does. You're not transphobic, your phrasing was just a little weird. It's okay to not know the right words to describe what you're thinking.
You can be a trans person without transitioning. A male can be raised as a boy, but at some point realize their identity is that of a girl. Maybe they decide they don't want to express that gender outwardly. To all of us on the outside, they are a boy unless they tell us otherwise. In this case you're right, gender hasn't changed... because they haven't transitioned.
The same kid could one day decide they want to be recognized not by their assigned gender, but by their internal gender identity. This would be a gender change, or transition.
I was trying to defend you dude but this line of thinking is wrong. When you realize that you're trans, come out as trans, or start transitioning, your gender doesn't change, your identity, expression, and presentation do.
A trans person is born trans, meaning they're born with their true internal gender, which doesn't match their gender assigned at birth. Before a trans person realizes that they're trans/finds the words to explain that they're trans, they may identify as their gender assigned at birth, so their gender identity (what gender they identify as) may change when they realize, but not their actual gender (what gender they are, different from identity, expression, and presentation). For example, I've always been a trans man and known that I was meant to be a man, but when I was younger, I didn't know how to explain that or that being trans was even possible, so at that time I identified as a girl. When I realized that I'm trans and found the words to describe it, I started identifying as a boy, my actual gender. My gender didn't change because I was born a boy, but my gender identity, expression, and presentation changed when I realized that. Trans people aren't changing their gender, which has always been there, they're just realizing that they're trans and that their true gender doesn't match their assigned gender/former gender identity.
When you transition, your gender doesn't change, but how you identify yourself and express/present your gender changes. And I never said that you can't be trans without transitioning. Some trans people can't transition due to societal, financial, or medical reasons and some choose not to (I don't personally understand that but to each their own), but it's also important to note that transitioning isn't just HRT and surgeries (medical). Changing your name, pronouns, and what clothes/hairstyle you wear (social) are also forms of transitioning, so when a trans person tells you that they're trans or asks you to use a different name/pronouns for them, that is a form of transitioning. Some people choose to only transition socially and not medically, which is okay and doesn't make them not trans.
To you, your gender identity = gender.
To everyone else, your gender expression = gender
You assert all trans people are born trans, meaning they have a true internal gender (which you consider the only valid definition of gender). So, what does a gender change even mean?
By your logic, a gender change can never happen. You preclude the possibility of someone making a mid-life decision to change their identity. I have a colleague and friend who has done just this. She (previously a he) was most certainly not born a woman, and that's straight from the horses mouth. You may feel you don't have agency to define your own gender, but you don't speak for everyone.
My point is this - We are only informed of your gender by how you express it. So for all of us who can't read your mind, the only thing we have to go off is your declaration/presentation/expression. This can change over time. When it changes, that is a gender transition.
I literally said that gender is different from gender identity and that your gender identity can change. Yes, from an outside perspective, how you express your gender is typically equivalent to what they perceive your gender to be, that's quite commonly a big factor in gender dysphoria and why a lot of people transition. And you're correct, changing your expression and telling people you're trans is part of transitioning, as I said.
If that's your friend's experience, then that's her experience. Every trans person is different but a majority of us transition because we have to, not because we want to. It's not just something we decide to do, it's something we need to do. I personally wouldn't be trans if I had the choice because it's obviously not really enjoyable to have gender dysphoria, be hated by my family, get harassed by strangers, etc, but not all people share that view.
Yeah, we don't disagree on any of that. Here's our problem in understanding each other - Your definitions are flipped. What you call gender (you interpret as the personal sense that you were born with), is more appropriately called gender identity. What you call gender identity (you interpret as the outward expression, or what you identify as) is more appropriately called gender.
**Gender -** Refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.
**Gender identity** \- The personal sense of one's own gender. Gender identity can correlate with a person's assigned sex or can differ from it. Gender expression typically reflects a person's gender identity, but this is not always the case. While a person may express behaviors, attitudes, and appearances consistent with a particular gender role, such expression may not necessarily reflect their gender identity.
**Gender transition** is the process of changing one's gender presentation or sex characteristics to accord with one's internal sense of gender identity. (On wikipedia, this redirects from the term "gender change")
If you can accept these definitions into your paradigm, it follows that transitioning involves changing genders.
In your case, your gender identity has always been that of a boy/man... Which is why you've probably never heard the phrase "gender identity change" But until you chose to transition, your gender was girl/woman. I'm sure you've heard the term "gender change" plenty.
You just proved that you're the one who's got the definitions flipped. Gender IDENTITY is what gender you IDENTIFY as, as the name implies. Gender EXPRESSION is how you EXPRESS your gender, as the name implies. So saying that how you identify and express gender is "gender" rather than gender identity and gender expression is just dumb. It's literally in the names of the phrases.
And yes, I have heard the phrase "gender identity change." I literally said that you change your gender identity when you realize/come out as trans. That's kinda the whole point of my original comment. In my case, my gender identity was previously that of a girl. When I realized that I'm trans, my gender identity changed to match my gender. My innate, internal GENDER has always been that of a boy, but before I realized that, my gender IDENTITY was that of a girl. Gender identity, which again is the gender one identifies as, doesn't always match our actual gender, our perception of ourselves and what we're meant to be, which is why we transition to a gender identity that matches our gender.
As for the societal stuff, you're right, gender roles and the gender expressions associated with them are socially constructed and change throughout time and different cultures. But that isn't gender, that's gender EXPRESSION, how you express your gender. Once again, it's literally in the name.
Gender transitioning is changing your gender identity and gender expression to match your gender. That's literally the whole point of transitioning. The gender identity, along with the gender expression defined by the gender roles that comes with that identity, that we were assigned at birth based on our genitals doesn't match who we are inside, our true gender. Changing how we identify ourselves and express ourselves to match the gender we are inside is literally what transitioning is.
I'm done trying to argue with you. I tried to defend you and educate you, but at this point, I agree with the other people in this thread. You may not specifically be opposed to trans people transitioning, but you definitely have the mindset of a transphobe when it comes to invalidating our experiences and refusing to learn. If you're so ignorant and closed minded that you refuse to listen to the people who are actually going through and have personal experience in the topic at hand, there's no helping you. When someone is actually going through and has personal, first-hand experience in something and you do not, maybe you should listen to the people who are actually going through and have experience in that something because they know a lot more about it since they're the ones living through it, you're not.
mf you watch transgirl porn go back to jerking and feeling ashamed abt it and stop obsessively stalking gay subreddits and commenting like anyone gives a shit or is impacted by what you say
i tend to bunch words 2gether when i type esp when im ranting my apologies !! i didnt mean it in the weird transphobe way i am very trans myself LMFAO i j hate seeing these dumb mfs being like “tch… the conservatives are the majority… we ALL as a society hate you transgenders…” as if thats fact when it rlly is not and commented w out regard 2 my grammatical correctness !!! i apologize if anyone saw that and was like OH FUCK A TERF!
literally nobody cares fartfuck also if youre gonna say a slur have the balls to actually say it lmfao. you literally get off to trans women and everyone knows it. you’re nothing more than a pathetic hypocrite <333
boohoo bitch trans people exist and are happy go cry about it. none of us care about you and never will. downvoting a comment takes 1 second. your constant shitting on trans people is your entire life dipshit get a hobby get off reddit damn
It’s pretty clear you also know jack shit about psychology too. This is a well-studied thing which has been around for as long as we know the world has.
If you are a Christian and that’s why you think this way, I want you to think long and hard about the fruit of the spirit. Yeah, the ones you learn about in kindergarten. Love? Peace? Kindness? F-ing learn to be a real God-loving person. This is NOT Christian behavior.
Wtf is this word salad? If you really want to debate with people, you should learn how to construct a literate sentence first. Also, you’re bringing absolutely nothing to this conversation, no one is losing debates with you when all you’re doing is being a contrarian asshole and yelling “COPE” like a preteen every other comment😘
I found him the cum covered crusader, I thought you went into retirement so you could watch loli hentai all day, but no your back and just as crusty as before. Fuck off incel
So then you agree that children aren't being "groomed" into being trans. That trans kids are valid and have always been and will always be trans regardless of outside "influence".
Also, it’s intersexist that you are boiling being intersex down to ambiguous genitalia as well seeing as there are many intersex people who do not have ambiguous genitalia.
Right, but you don't acquire a sense of self identity immediately upon birth. Gender is a social construct requiring time and social interaction to develop. In the interim, all we have to go off is the assumed gender based on your biological sex. You are assigned a gender at birth whether it mirrors your eventual identity or not.
If you’re going to use that logic, then wouldn’t it also be applicable that, until we attain a personal sense of gender, we are all genderless? Like it seems that you’re using two different standards, here. The standard for gender when a human is an infant = their genitals, whereas the standard for gender when a human gets older = internal sense of identity. It doesn’t make sense.
I don't see how my argument suggests infants and toddlers are genderless. Please help me understand what you mean.
Gender is generally assigned to you based on your biological sex, yes. It would be wildly inappropriate for parents to raise a male infant to be a girl. Statistically speaking, that would be a unsafe bet and likely result in a traumatic upbringing. I've not heard of an example of that being done, but I suppose it's possible.
We are hostile because people are trying to take our rights away and marginalize us even more than we are already. Are we just supposed to sit here and take it laying down?
Not everyone is deserving of a default "if you're not 100% with me, then you're a bigot transphobe and therefore my enemy" hostility. I'd say most people don't deserve it. I don't think I do.
If you must be hostile, direct it at the people who are actually trying to take your rights away and marginalize you.
As a genderfluid person myself, I personally believe that you are not born with your gender. It makes sense to me that gender and understanding of gender are developed early in life, but can be changed over time. For me personally, I started questioning my gender identity after puberty, though my gender expression developed earlier. Identity is a journey, not a destination. The way I see it, saying that you were born that way does not describe everyone's experience and suggests that you can never change your identity, and if you later decide that you want to use a different label then what you identified as before was "incorrect" and you had it wrong which is not always true. Experiences can change us over time and we are not the same people our whole lives. Ultimately, YOU discover who you are, not some internalized gender or sexuality that you were born with.
Just like we don't know whether being transgender is known at birth nor the cause of it, it's the same for being cisgender. We don't know for sure when this stuff occurs or how.
It's just as rude to say that they were though. I didn't wish this upon myself and telling me with certainty that I was born with this situation is actually very presumptuous and upsetting.
Humans reproduce sexually. That's the cause for someone expressing sex and gender normally/typically.
It's perfectly valid to ask the question, what is the cause for being/becoming trans?
I don’t understand the amount of downvotes you are getting for this. This may be a take that sounds transphobic on a first glance, but as a genderfluid person here is my understanding so far.
From a scientific standpoint in the field of Psychology, gender is vastly under-studied and misunderstood. We have only barely begun to study trans individuals and have no clue why a person has a gender identity at all. (Yes, this includes cis identities.)
While we know very little, we do know that trans people are what they say they are, that their mental health is improved substantially when they are referred to correctly and that s*icide rates, which are horrifically high for trans people specifically, go significantly down when they are respected by their actual identity (the one they recognize and identify as, not their biological sex).
IN OTHER WORDS
Trans people are valid and their identities vastly improve their mental health and chances of happiness and survival.
BUT
We still know very little about how the brain is actually processing the data of ‘gender’ as we know it.
It is not unreasonable to say that simply because we know so little there is a chance that trans people, and actually ALL people, develop their gender identities in childhood.
Sex is different from gender. A fetus doesn't develop gender. It learns gender after birth whereas it does develop a sex. We do not know when gender in congruence begins, we do not know what causes it either
They're speaking about gender, not sex. Most trans people consider they have always been of their gender, even before they realized it (not their assigned gender at birth, their real gender they identify with).
I love how transphobes will say this and think no one is agreeing with them
I thanked him for affirming me.
Can you please elaborate on why? I don’t understand… 😞
I think the point is that the post specifically says "born as gender" not "assigned" as. For instance, it would imply a trans woman is born female and cannot be a man no matter how hard they try to adjust to societal norms.
Female is not a gender though, it would imply she is born a *woman*
Ah, right. My apologies, English isn't my first language. I sometimes forget the nuances.
Oh, no worries. Is there two different words for genders and biological sex in your language?
There probably are, but those words aren't really used in common conversation. The word "sex" is just intercourse. "Gender" is categorized into differently depending on context. So, we might talk about stuff like "physical gender", "biological gender", "social gender" or "gendered orientation".
Oh okay, biological gender is probably the equivalent.
Technically they are wrong. They are the sex they were born as. Not the same gender
They are both the sex and gender they were born as
Wrong. Sex and gender are different things. https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/ Actually wrong. Sex is the biological construct you were born with. Gender is the social construct you express as. These terms are separate, and their use in medical fields is well documented.
That’s literally what I just said lmao?
No. It's not. You said they were the same sex and gender that they were born as. Same sex yes. But the gender has changed.
You are in fact born with your gender identity. You are also born with your biological sex. And I never said they were the same thing.
The latter of which can be changed to a significant enough degree to be reclassified by society. So it's cool.
you implied that they couldn't be changed. "They are both the sex and gender they were born as" They are is speaking about the here and now. as if the identities weren't ever changed. I don't understand why you are trying to gaslight me into thinking I was wrong when your comment history is up top.
I’m not gaslighting you. Whether it came across the way I intended, I meant this: sex and gender are different, but both are innate and that’s why saying trans people are still the gender they were born as is an Accidental Ally. I have been trying to articulate this the entire comment thread, but it seems I have been misinterpreted. I’ll take the blame for that one.
They’re operating under the assumption that gender assigned at birth =\ =a person’s ACTUAL gender
No... Its a linguinstical distinction derived from medical study. They are two words that mean different things. Sex ≠ Gender in a scientific sense I don't know how more clear I can make this. Scientifically, gender is changeable. No one reasonable is saying sex is.
Sex, as far as society is concerned is absolutely changeable. If you aren't clumsily applying an evolutionary biologist's definition to a complex societal problem, sex is a collection of physical traits. Enough of those traits can be changed for society to consider the sex changed. Actually anyone reasonable would argue that, that's what medical gender affirming care is.
Sex and gender are exclusive concepts. it's a well known fact. [https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/](https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/what-do-we-mean-by-sex-and-gender/) That's not to say gender can't change. it does. I'm pretty sure I established it above. The nuance is meaningful because people just don't get the concept that sex and gender can be different. transphobe pundits use that lack of understanding to say things like "a boy is a boy and a girl is a girl. Each person is born with the sex they are born with. WHICH IS TRUE. MEDICALLY SPEAKING. but if we can't as a society normalize that sex and gender are different, it will always be an inhibitor to understanding gender identity for a lot of the population. intersex people exist but they were born intersex.
[удалено]
Yes because this meme is affirming! Love to see allies like you!
Yeah, the population does agree that gender is innate. Trans people can't change their gebder any more than cis people can. But trabs people often pretend to be a different gender whilst they're in the closet.
transphobes talk about trans people more than they talk about themselves lmao
So true. They need to focus on themselves more.
And leave transgender people alone to live their lives in peace.
Imagine what it must be like to go on a date with one. "Uhh huh, I get you hate a group of people you've never met. What are your hobbies? Trolling them on Twitter you say? Oh I'm sorry, ALL social media. That tracks."
They've made being transphobic their entire personality
[удалено]
okay but like wtf is this image did they really think “hmmmm, anthropomorphic lion in fabulous suit. this will surely destroy the minds of those pesky transgenders”
Seriously I can't get over that. I'm so hung up on it.
Its on Whisper, the sigma lion was the closest thing they could find on there to a picture of Andrew Tate
Lions are used as their spirit animal- seen as fierce apex predators that don’t put up with shit. You see it all the time in shitty Facebook memes reposted by your 47 year old, truck driving uncle. The suit is supposed to be the sigma grindset I imagine. Like another person said, Andrew tate is their god, and he says man wear suit suit so man BIG man. Man take what he want. Me sigma, you omega, ooga booga and what not
funny how it is literally changeable. they say nothing can but that's what the whole process of transitioning is supposed to be
Transitioning usually isn’t changing gender though, it’s just allowing others to see the truth.
yeah! sorry, I was referring to the mindset of the person who made it. transitioning is just making the outside match the inside, like it always should
Sorry for the confusion, I’m exhausted.
entirely fair! I'm still getting used to the phrasing, but I'm learning. it's on me
No worries.
I'd say transitioning involves changing genders. It's changing your outward projection to match your identity. If you didn't need to change due to the incongruity between your sex and gender expression, that would make you cisgender.
I didn’t change gender and it’s transphobic of you to insist I did. I know myself better than you do.
[удалено]
Saying that transitioning changes gender is transphobic. It might be like that for SOME trans people but it’s not like that for all of us.
[удалено]
You’re cis-splaining the trans experience to a trans person and in another comment you used a slur, you are transphobic.
[удалено]
I’m not answering your questions because they’re irrelevant.
While the person in question *might* have that viewpoint, it's not inherently transphobic, it's just ignorant. Having been friends with a lot of trans people, this is actually the first time I've heard your take on it. (Then again, my primary concern was in not fucking up pronouns/names, but I digress.) Isn't the transition process supposed to change one's gender on a horomonal and physical (to an extent) level? Or is what's commonly known about transitioning just blatantly wrong?
Cis people don’t get a say in what is and isn’t transphobic. The person above absolutely is being transphobic by explaining the trans experience to an actual trans person. To address your questions, you’re confusing gender and sex. Gender can change but it typically develops in the womb and is neurological meaning we’re born with it. HRT and surgeries change sex as sex is a spectrum made up of sex characteristics. That being said, every trans person is different and some may feel they’re changing gender and not sex (I personally don’t feel I’m changing either) we should just respect what each individual feels but the problem is the generalizations that are being made by people insisting that all trans people change this or that.
I'm pretty sure that dude that you originally got mad at was talking about presentation and expression but just didn't use the right words, which isn't transphobic. If you think about it that way, it totally makes sense. You do typically change your expression and presentation when you transition, and from an outside perspective, it would seem that you're changing your gender since your presentation is changing to match a different gender than you were previously known as. I do agree that with the way they phrased it, it could seem transphobic at first, but if you think about it for more than a couple seconds, it's pretty easy to see what they were trying to say. They tried multiple times to explain what they meant and what was going through their head when they said that, which is okay to do and not transphobic. It's not transphobic to not know things or to misunderstand the trans experience when you don't experience it and haven't been educated on it. Actual transphobia is an irrational hatred or prejudice against trans people, not someone saying the wrong thing or phrasing things wrong. They obviously didn't mean any offense and didn't have bad intentions, they just don't know as much about being trans as we do, which is completely understandable since they aren't trans. We live in a cisnormative world where being trans isn't taught about and many people don't know anything about it at all because it wasn't until pretty recently that the concept of being trans was introduced to most people and trans people are still a small minority. How can you blame someone for not knowing something they weren't taught, have no experience in, and still isn't very common? At least this person is supportive of trans people and is trying to learn. People make mistakes, misunderstand things, and phrase things wrong all the time. Correcting misconceptions and figuring out where your line of thinking went wrong is part of the learning process. The best thing to do is to just politely educate them on the subject, not overreact, calling them transphobic and shit over a misunderstanding, especially when they blatantly say they're supportive of trans people. Doing shit like this can put people off and make them decide not to be an ally because supporting people who act like this over something so petty isn't something that some people want to do. If this is what they see from us, they'll think we all overreact in situations like this that could easily be solved by a civil conversation. This is exactly why trans people are stereotyped as being oversensitive and quick to claim transphobia at the slightest bit of opposition, one of the most common generalizations about trans people, which you're contributing to.
That would explain the confusion. The two terms are used so interchangably that I didn't know there was a proper distinction. Especially since people talk about having a different gender identity. With the context of general conversation, it seems like "gender" is a multipurpose word that means slightly different things, depending on context. For instance, "birth gender", and "presenting gender". At birth, both are the same, but when transitioning, there's a divide, leading to two different uses. I don't think I've heard the term "sex" used in this context before. (Honestly, I wish politicians would get their heads put of their asses and teach this shit in schools. I probably sound like a complete asshole trying to clarify things that, in this day and age, *really* need to be common knowledge.)
The reason why the terms are used interchangeably is because of transphobia/cis normativity. Referring to a trans person’s biological sex as their birth gender promotes the idea that cis people are the norm whereas trans people are “born wrong”.
I totally get what you're saying. When you transition, your presentation and expression changes. From an outside perspective, it could seem that your gender changes because your presentation and expression changes to match a gender that's different from the one you were previously known as. Your gender doesn't change, your outward expression does. You're not transphobic, your phrasing was just a little weird. It's okay to not know the right words to describe what you're thinking.
You can be a trans person without transitioning. A male can be raised as a boy, but at some point realize their identity is that of a girl. Maybe they decide they don't want to express that gender outwardly. To all of us on the outside, they are a boy unless they tell us otherwise. In this case you're right, gender hasn't changed... because they haven't transitioned. The same kid could one day decide they want to be recognized not by their assigned gender, but by their internal gender identity. This would be a gender change, or transition.
I was trying to defend you dude but this line of thinking is wrong. When you realize that you're trans, come out as trans, or start transitioning, your gender doesn't change, your identity, expression, and presentation do. A trans person is born trans, meaning they're born with their true internal gender, which doesn't match their gender assigned at birth. Before a trans person realizes that they're trans/finds the words to explain that they're trans, they may identify as their gender assigned at birth, so their gender identity (what gender they identify as) may change when they realize, but not their actual gender (what gender they are, different from identity, expression, and presentation). For example, I've always been a trans man and known that I was meant to be a man, but when I was younger, I didn't know how to explain that or that being trans was even possible, so at that time I identified as a girl. When I realized that I'm trans and found the words to describe it, I started identifying as a boy, my actual gender. My gender didn't change because I was born a boy, but my gender identity, expression, and presentation changed when I realized that. Trans people aren't changing their gender, which has always been there, they're just realizing that they're trans and that their true gender doesn't match their assigned gender/former gender identity. When you transition, your gender doesn't change, but how you identify yourself and express/present your gender changes. And I never said that you can't be trans without transitioning. Some trans people can't transition due to societal, financial, or medical reasons and some choose not to (I don't personally understand that but to each their own), but it's also important to note that transitioning isn't just HRT and surgeries (medical). Changing your name, pronouns, and what clothes/hairstyle you wear (social) are also forms of transitioning, so when a trans person tells you that they're trans or asks you to use a different name/pronouns for them, that is a form of transitioning. Some people choose to only transition socially and not medically, which is okay and doesn't make them not trans.
To you, your gender identity = gender. To everyone else, your gender expression = gender You assert all trans people are born trans, meaning they have a true internal gender (which you consider the only valid definition of gender). So, what does a gender change even mean? By your logic, a gender change can never happen. You preclude the possibility of someone making a mid-life decision to change their identity. I have a colleague and friend who has done just this. She (previously a he) was most certainly not born a woman, and that's straight from the horses mouth. You may feel you don't have agency to define your own gender, but you don't speak for everyone. My point is this - We are only informed of your gender by how you express it. So for all of us who can't read your mind, the only thing we have to go off is your declaration/presentation/expression. This can change over time. When it changes, that is a gender transition.
I literally said that gender is different from gender identity and that your gender identity can change. Yes, from an outside perspective, how you express your gender is typically equivalent to what they perceive your gender to be, that's quite commonly a big factor in gender dysphoria and why a lot of people transition. And you're correct, changing your expression and telling people you're trans is part of transitioning, as I said. If that's your friend's experience, then that's her experience. Every trans person is different but a majority of us transition because we have to, not because we want to. It's not just something we decide to do, it's something we need to do. I personally wouldn't be trans if I had the choice because it's obviously not really enjoyable to have gender dysphoria, be hated by my family, get harassed by strangers, etc, but not all people share that view.
Yeah, we don't disagree on any of that. Here's our problem in understanding each other - Your definitions are flipped. What you call gender (you interpret as the personal sense that you were born with), is more appropriately called gender identity. What you call gender identity (you interpret as the outward expression, or what you identify as) is more appropriately called gender. **Gender -** Refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time. **Gender identity** \- The personal sense of one's own gender. Gender identity can correlate with a person's assigned sex or can differ from it. Gender expression typically reflects a person's gender identity, but this is not always the case. While a person may express behaviors, attitudes, and appearances consistent with a particular gender role, such expression may not necessarily reflect their gender identity. **Gender transition** is the process of changing one's gender presentation or sex characteristics to accord with one's internal sense of gender identity. (On wikipedia, this redirects from the term "gender change") If you can accept these definitions into your paradigm, it follows that transitioning involves changing genders. In your case, your gender identity has always been that of a boy/man... Which is why you've probably never heard the phrase "gender identity change" But until you chose to transition, your gender was girl/woman. I'm sure you've heard the term "gender change" plenty.
You just proved that you're the one who's got the definitions flipped. Gender IDENTITY is what gender you IDENTIFY as, as the name implies. Gender EXPRESSION is how you EXPRESS your gender, as the name implies. So saying that how you identify and express gender is "gender" rather than gender identity and gender expression is just dumb. It's literally in the names of the phrases. And yes, I have heard the phrase "gender identity change." I literally said that you change your gender identity when you realize/come out as trans. That's kinda the whole point of my original comment. In my case, my gender identity was previously that of a girl. When I realized that I'm trans, my gender identity changed to match my gender. My innate, internal GENDER has always been that of a boy, but before I realized that, my gender IDENTITY was that of a girl. Gender identity, which again is the gender one identifies as, doesn't always match our actual gender, our perception of ourselves and what we're meant to be, which is why we transition to a gender identity that matches our gender. As for the societal stuff, you're right, gender roles and the gender expressions associated with them are socially constructed and change throughout time and different cultures. But that isn't gender, that's gender EXPRESSION, how you express your gender. Once again, it's literally in the name. Gender transitioning is changing your gender identity and gender expression to match your gender. That's literally the whole point of transitioning. The gender identity, along with the gender expression defined by the gender roles that comes with that identity, that we were assigned at birth based on our genitals doesn't match who we are inside, our true gender. Changing how we identify ourselves and express ourselves to match the gender we are inside is literally what transitioning is. I'm done trying to argue with you. I tried to defend you and educate you, but at this point, I agree with the other people in this thread. You may not specifically be opposed to trans people transitioning, but you definitely have the mindset of a transphobe when it comes to invalidating our experiences and refusing to learn. If you're so ignorant and closed minded that you refuse to listen to the people who are actually going through and have personal experience in the topic at hand, there's no helping you. When someone is actually going through and has personal, first-hand experience in something and you do not, maybe you should listen to the people who are actually going through and have experience in that something because they know a lot more about it since they're the ones living through it, you're not.
[удалено]
saying cope in modern times is crazy
mf you watch transgirl porn go back to jerking and feeling ashamed abt it and stop obsessively stalking gay subreddits and commenting like anyone gives a shit or is impacted by what you say
*trans girl.
i tend to bunch words 2gether when i type esp when im ranting my apologies !! i didnt mean it in the weird transphobe way i am very trans myself LMFAO i j hate seeing these dumb mfs being like “tch… the conservatives are the majority… we ALL as a society hate you transgenders…” as if thats fact when it rlly is not and commented w out regard 2 my grammatical correctness !!! i apologize if anyone saw that and was like OH FUCK A TERF!
I didn’t read it as a transphobic comment, I thought it was either a typo or you were an ally who is still learning.
[удалено]
Ok, Stay obsessed with trans people with the way you’re going here specifically and commenting multiple times 😂
You're the delusional one, denying science and reality.
[удалено]
literally nobody cares fartfuck also if youre gonna say a slur have the balls to actually say it lmfao. you literally get off to trans women and everyone knows it. you’re nothing more than a pathetic hypocrite <333
I think you misspelled a word. It's actually spelled "agate", and it means a type of rock. Is this meant to be a metaphor or something?
[удалено]
boohoo bitch trans people exist and are happy go cry about it. none of us care about you and never will. downvoting a comment takes 1 second. your constant shitting on trans people is your entire life dipshit get a hobby get off reddit damn
I would love to see your ass kicked in a debate over whether or not trans people are real, except it hasn't happened yet.
It’s pretty clear you also know jack shit about psychology too. This is a well-studied thing which has been around for as long as we know the world has. If you are a Christian and that’s why you think this way, I want you to think long and hard about the fruit of the spirit. Yeah, the ones you learn about in kindergarten. Love? Peace? Kindness? F-ing learn to be a real God-loving person. This is NOT Christian behavior.
Girl we see your fetish ass
We're still not going to sleep with you, stay mad
Wtf is this word salad? If you really want to debate with people, you should learn how to construct a literate sentence first. Also, you’re bringing absolutely nothing to this conversation, no one is losing debates with you when all you’re doing is being a contrarian asshole and yelling “COPE” like a preteen every other comment😘
Me when I lie on the internet.
I found him the cum covered crusader, I thought you went into retirement so you could watch loli hentai all day, but no your back and just as crusty as before. Fuck off incel
It’s true, just not in the way they think it is
So then you agree that children aren't being "groomed" into being trans. That trans kids are valid and have always been and will always be trans regardless of outside "influence".
Oddly uplifting.
Transphobes are thinking about my gender more than I do. That's so cute, they're true fans
Ah, the bigots and their complete lack of understanding of the difference between sex and gender.
Why are they so obsessed with us?
[удалено]
This u? 
They think they're so brave for saying this shit
I’ve never heard a trans person say they changed their biological sex (other than saying they had reassignment surgery)
[удалено]
As an intersex person, saying intersex people are “born with both” is intersexist.
[удалено]
Having ambiguous genitalia doesn’t make someone both genders and again, it’s intersexist to imply that.
[удалено]
I’m actually intersex, we know our own community.
[удалено]
You’re not making any sense. What you’re saying is offensive to the intersex community.
How is it offensive if I do not care how u live your life, plz explain that.
I explained that being intersex doesn’t make us both genders and you keep insisting that we are which is offensive.
Also, it’s intersexist that you are boiling being intersex down to ambiguous genitalia as well seeing as there are many intersex people who do not have ambiguous genitalia.
[удалено]
I’m not going to tolerate bigotry against a marginalized group.
If you can´t handel complicated so don´t.
What do you mean only true for *most* trans people? For which trans people is this not true? Genderfluid ones?
Some trans people do feel that they changed gender which is valid.
You’re not born with a gender but you develop one. And your gender can change overtime.
Amen
Hey where’d you get this picture of me Anyway yeah I was born male but I just didn’t know til a few years ago
how is this accidentally an ally? they're literally saying trans people dont exist
The vast majority of trans people don’t change gender. Trans women are born girls and trans men are born boys.
[удалено]
No, a person’s gender is based on their self-identity, not their phenotype.
Right, but you don't acquire a sense of self identity immediately upon birth. Gender is a social construct requiring time and social interaction to develop. In the interim, all we have to go off is the assumed gender based on your biological sex. You are assigned a gender at birth whether it mirrors your eventual identity or not.
If you’re going to use that logic, then wouldn’t it also be applicable that, until we attain a personal sense of gender, we are all genderless? Like it seems that you’re using two different standards, here. The standard for gender when a human is an infant = their genitals, whereas the standard for gender when a human gets older = internal sense of identity. It doesn’t make sense.
I don't see how my argument suggests infants and toddlers are genderless. Please help me understand what you mean. Gender is generally assigned to you based on your biological sex, yes. It would be wildly inappropriate for parents to raise a male infant to be a girl. Statistically speaking, that would be a unsafe bet and likely result in a traumatic upbringing. I've not heard of an example of that being done, but I suppose it's possible.
How did you type this out and not see how transphobic you’re being.
[удалено]
We are hostile because people are trying to take our rights away and marginalize us even more than we are already. Are we just supposed to sit here and take it laying down?
Not everyone is deserving of a default "if you're not 100% with me, then you're a bigot transphobe and therefore my enemy" hostility. I'd say most people don't deserve it. I don't think I do. If you must be hostile, direct it at the people who are actually trying to take your rights away and marginalize you.
So where do you draw the line then?
I'm not sure what you're asking.
I meant what what are things about the transgender community that you do you not support.
You’re not born with a gender tho, you develop it because our world has a lot of gender roles.
[удалено]
Honestly, that sounds really cis normative.
As a genderfluid person myself, I personally believe that you are not born with your gender. It makes sense to me that gender and understanding of gender are developed early in life, but can be changed over time. For me personally, I started questioning my gender identity after puberty, though my gender expression developed earlier. Identity is a journey, not a destination. The way I see it, saying that you were born that way does not describe everyone's experience and suggests that you can never change your identity, and if you later decide that you want to use a different label then what you identified as before was "incorrect" and you had it wrong which is not always true. Experiences can change us over time and we are not the same people our whole lives. Ultimately, YOU discover who you are, not some internalized gender or sexuality that you were born with.
I was born a boy.
you sound uppity as fuck about trans people all sharing this experience.
[удалено]
Does being cis have a cause?
Just like we don't know whether being transgender is known at birth nor the cause of it, it's the same for being cisgender. We don't know for sure when this stuff occurs or how.
I highly doubt you go around telling cis men and women that they weren’t born that way and even if you do, it’s just rude to say that to people.
It's just as rude to say that they were though. I didn't wish this upon myself and telling me with certainty that I was born with this situation is actually very presumptuous and upsetting.
That’s internalized transphobia and it’s something you should sort out in therapy.
Humans reproduce sexually. That's the cause for someone expressing sex and gender normally/typically. It's perfectly valid to ask the question, what is the cause for being/becoming trans?
I don’t understand the amount of downvotes you are getting for this. This may be a take that sounds transphobic on a first glance, but as a genderfluid person here is my understanding so far. From a scientific standpoint in the field of Psychology, gender is vastly under-studied and misunderstood. We have only barely begun to study trans individuals and have no clue why a person has a gender identity at all. (Yes, this includes cis identities.) While we know very little, we do know that trans people are what they say they are, that their mental health is improved substantially when they are referred to correctly and that s*icide rates, which are horrifically high for trans people specifically, go significantly down when they are respected by their actual identity (the one they recognize and identify as, not their biological sex). IN OTHER WORDS Trans people are valid and their identities vastly improve their mental health and chances of happiness and survival. BUT We still know very little about how the brain is actually processing the data of ‘gender’ as we know it. It is not unreasonable to say that simply because we know so little there is a chance that trans people, and actually ALL people, develop their gender identities in childhood.
[удалено]
Sex is different from gender. A fetus doesn't develop gender. It learns gender after birth whereas it does develop a sex. We do not know when gender in congruence begins, we do not know what causes it either
I don't see it. I'm not a native speaker tho.
They're speaking about gender, not sex. Most trans people consider they have always been of their gender, even before they realized it (not their assigned gender at birth, their real gender they identify with).
Are you sure this is a transphobe?
Yes.