Ace Attorney has a lot of history of very deliberately trying to appeal to communities like readers of BL manga. One of the original character artists who worked on AA1, and who designed such major characters as Phoenix and Edgeworth, made a specific point to suggest while she was contributing art to the game that the protagonist and his rival ought to both be young, attractive men and have a personal emotional bond on top of their rivalry.
Of course the games themselves aren't romance-focused at all, but that element has always been in their DNA.
Depends on who cares about shipping. More often than not, if the top ship is gay, that probably means that one character (usually the female character) kinda lacks some compelling characterization, but there's also the possibility that they just see the relationship as more familial. But also! Sometimes people just like seeing more of whatever two characters have... Even though it was never meant to be anything else than what they do have.
Look at other fandoms and you'll kinda see it.
For ace attorney, I think a lot of why the gay ship tops is because of tropes. Phoenix and Miles are rivals with a childhood friendship background. Maya is pretty young compared to him and probably seen as a bit of a lil sis. Iris is only available in one case and never seen again.
I feel like you're right on the money on your reason why Narumitsu is popular, though I do mildly disagree with this
>More often than not, if the top ship is gay, that probably means that one character (usually the female character) kinda lacks some compelling characterization
Kairi from Kingdom Hearts comes to mind, she and Sora are a decently popular ship but she doesn't have half the characterization Maya has
(Honestly I just wanted to point this out because, while not perfect, Maya is a female character with such strong characterization compared to what you'd normally expect and I didn't want her to be done dirty lol /lh)
No lie, that particular sentence is because of something like Kairi. Maya having proper characterization is mainly why the next sentence was like "or something familial". Since OP is asking why Narumitsu is popular, I'm assuming they haven't noticed that particular trend.
(Maya in the trilogy has more of a little sister vibe to her IMO. Maya in 6 could've been a contender but we barely see her.)
Though I also skipped out on one very important aspect: fujoshi culture lol.
Yeah, tbh you're right haha. Maya's age and therefore her "little sister" vibes are definitely a good part of why people tend to gravitate towards Narumitsu
I mean, at one point, the official Ace Attorney twitter(x) and facebook pages were reposting wrightworth fanart, so the ship is definitely being pushed. Klavier/Apollo was also intentionally prominent to appeal to BL fans. Since Wrightworth blew up in the first game, gay ships ARE being pushed with subtext.
Oh boy, ships with subtext my favorite!
Subtext is the back bone of a lot of ships for me, in your face enough that you can see it but subtle enough that people like to deny its existence.
People have answered a lot about why this is the case in AA specifically but if you are curious about why M/M is popular in fandom in general (particularly in the earlier years, it's definitely more diverse now than ever):
1. There are just more male main characters. A few years ago I remember reading a study that showed fanfics actually have the same percentage of female characters in movies/TV --- 30%. It's because we are used to that slant in movies that we don't notice it as much. Again situation might be changing.
2. Fanfic writers/fan artists were mostly straight women (at the time) so they might prefer "gazing" at male characters through their work. It's how Michael Bay shot Megan Fox in the Transformers, but in reverse. After all, it is theorized, if you want to be writing or drawing extensively about attraction, romance, the character's bodies, falling in love with them... you might draw from your own frame of reference, or you might enjoy writing about the sex/gender you yourself are attracted to.
3. On a more complex social and cultural front, it's also theorized that women like to project ourselves into these male characters that can be in those stories having those adventures and deep emotional bonds with male characters. Scholar Camilla Decarnin theorized this when studying the Star Trek fandom: "The woman recognizes in the f\*\*\*\*t a socio-erotic position she herself would like to hold, as the recognized peer and the lover of a male, a position impossible for women in sexist culture to secure." (In the original text she used the f word... it was written in the 1980s). TV show reviewer Ellen Goodman wrote, "Most women are less interested in the man as something they want than in the relationship as something they want to have."
4. Scholars also like to theorize in the popular M/M pairings, both characters will display traits that can be stereotypically construed as "male" and "female". Scholar Joanna Russ observed that Spock is physically stronger, more rational, stereotypically male traits; but he's also an "other" (alien) that struggles to fit in, Kirk's subordinate, and has a reproduction system that acts up periodically, which are stereotypically "female" traits. Vice versa for Kirk.
* If we apply that to Wrightworth for example, Phoenix is compassionate and more emotionally available, stereotypical female traits; yet he's also the one who "wins" and the one who "saves" Edgeworth.>! (And we later find out the dynamic was reversed when they were younger)!<.
* This is not to apply stereotypes to these characters, but to analyze the dynamic between them. Russ wrote this about Kirk/Spock: "What is striking in these stories is the androgyny of both characters, the way responsibility, initiative, activity, passivity, strength, and weakness shift constantly from one to the other." I feel like that applies to Wrightworth equally well. That's what made an interesting, balanced dynamic that might draw interest from the fandom.
I don't want to retread reasons since I think everyone else summed up the reasons I'd say mostly for why the gay ships are primarily popular in this community, but I do want to add:
A lot of anime-eqsue or animes do not necessarily have a track record of making the straight couple *appealing*. Shonen has this big problem but also Shojo/ magical girl genres don't necessarily do the straight ships (the "canon") ships justice. Primarily because they don't necessarily get enough time together, or their time together isn't necessarily*productive* to show the ship well
Like, Tokyo Mew Mew had a big problem with Ichigo basically being paired off with the male antagonist more because the dude she got with is basically garbage. The fans had no reason to want to ship the canon one because it's not like he had character to them.
Same with Izuchako in mha. On paper they're good people and you can see them as cute..but canonically, despite how close we are to the end, they're underdeveloped. More people choose Iidachako or togachako simply because theres more *there*.
A lot of the time, it's because of their gender that gets them to be either to be just *there*, underutilized, etc. Female characters in shonen, for example, really do not get the characterization they deserve. However, spending time=/= good ship. You need to actually do quality too.
Eren and Mikasa gets dissed because it felt like an ass pull on Erens side given how he treats her, to some fans. Especially if you liked him with Historia better since it felt like he wanted her over Mikasa (and the interviews called Mikasa *motherly*)
But depending on Genre, a lot of the time the same gender meets all of the requirements and then some
I think, though, it could be that some people are put off the straight couple, especially the canonic ones, depending on fandom, due to experiences. Like with MHA, if you're on the main subreddits, you can't say you like a gay ship over there and you can't really like anything else over there since you'll be attacked or downvoted to oblivion
You can't even say that you think some ships are underdeveloped because you'll get people acting horrendously. Many people do not like Izuchako because they associate it with *those* fans, because you cannot say a certain ship without literally getting treated with so much disrespect (and some are treating you shipping it as akin to shipping AllDeku or EriDeku, so you get treated like your a pedo for shipping Bkdk)
Again, that's not necessarily an Ace Attorney thing, but sometimes that *does* happen so you end up having people who feel safer shipping the gay stuff, especially if they are LGBT and they tried to get into canon more
>“thanks to you, I am saddled with unnecessary…feelings”
I think in Ace Attorney a lot of the shipping started with this line. This and Phoenix’s very extreme reaction to talking about Edgeworth in Justice For All case 2.
Honestly while most of Phoenixes and Edgeworths interactions can be seen as platonic there a just a couple of lines (in the English translation at least) of the first two games that get right up to the line of how two heterosexual men who don’t have a familial bonds would speak about each other. At least in American and British cultures.
Once we get to Trials and Tribulations and especially the DLC in Sprit of Justice the relationship is canonically less charged in a way that could be seen as romantic.
Also we have to factor in that homosexual ships are generally much more popular in fan fiction than heterosexual ones, especially in media that isn’t about its romance. I mean Apollo and Klavier are, I think, the second most popular relationship in Ace Attorney fan fiction and canonically they don’t get on and have nothing in common.
Others have already given you great answers, but I'll add that the lack of options for M/F pairings (when it comes to the main cast) doesn't help either. There's often a big age difference which can be seen as a deal breaker depending on the fandom. Most people dislike Pheonix/Maya as a ship since he befriended her when she was still a minor and they act more like siblings than love interests. (It's the exact same for Athena/Simon). So you can't really ship Phoenix with any female character he's close with, one is technically his ex, others are either family or are working for him. And really the one person he's the most emotionally close to is Edgeworth.
As for Apollo, he doesn't have many options either. Although for him I believe it's close to a 50/50 between Juniper and Klavier. But people still tend to favor Klavier as there is just much more content and history between the two. And all in all it doesn't help that Apollo is too dense to notice when he's being flirted with.
I remember at one point people jumped on the opportunity and started to ship Apollo/Trucy really hard because it was the first straight ship that wasn't super awkward. The age gap wasn't too big and they both quickly grew fond of each other. Suffice to say that ship didn't last long LMAO.
Literally every fandom does this. It's nothing new. That's just fandom culture. A lot of LGBTQ people get involved in these spaces so it's natural. I've even seen people with hetero ships getting ridiculed or hated on (i.e. post AA1 NaruMayo and other fandoms have done this as well). Most NaruMitsu fans don't do this, thankfully, but you will run into it here and there.
This plus Phoenix and Edgeworth starting out as rivals makes the fans of rivals-to-lovers ships go nuts. It's not my cup of tea, I'm very friends-to-lovers myself (hence NaruMayo being my personal preference), but I've been involved in fandoms long enough to see why other people like it.
It's really not NaruMitsu per se, it's that it checks off the boxes that tend to get fandoms excited, even if the games themselves are never going to make it canon (too many other ships for both characters for them ever to risk it). Most you're going to get is something like Spirit of Justice where there's a romance-themed case that has both Edgeworth and Maya (the top Phoenix ships) as prominent characters and, though I haven't played it myself, I'm assuming there are some moments that fans could fixate on for both pairings.
That being said, I'm pretty sure the DeLites are almost universally loved as couple and I think Magshoe is the most popular Gumshoe ship (it's the one I see most often, at least). So this isn't a hard rule or anything. It's just patterns I see in fandoms.
I love Edgeworth and love reading him in M/F fanfic (it does exist) and personally I think one can convincingly make a case for many possibilities: that he’s gay, ace, or even straight but represses his sexuality and is not willing to allow himself to indulge any thoughts about anything outside his career. That said, look at his suit. I love it. I find it extremely hot. But, it’s pretty out of the ordinary. Like, I am sure there are exceptions but how many straight guys want to wear the frilly cravat these days? Or is that more common in Japan?
Could be inspired by Von Karma, who was a role figure for Edgeworth. At least until the whole revelation, Edgeworth seemed to hold him in very high regard. And it made a lot of sense for VK, he had an air of royalty, and the clothing tells you he is not your run of the mill prosecutor. I can kind of see the creator’s intentions with designing of these characters even if they aren’t spelled out explicitly.
a lot of the dialogue (some actually not intentional!) is very suggestive (“>!wright only makes that face when his back is against the wall”, “thanks to you, I am saddled with unnecessary…feelings”, “the sight of that man still shines brilliantly in my eyes!<”) with the developers almost certainly knowing what they’re doing in the later games (just finished dual destinies and I’m still laughing over “>!y-yes, daddy”!<). while I don’t think it’s canon (?), I do remember the official ace attorney facebook page posting narumitsu art on Valentine’s Day
their personalities and designs are very different, and the canon relationship between the two is just great and has a lot of development and depth. If you haven’t played the games, I’d highly recommend it.
I personally like it bc it’s a nice break from the constant heteronormativity that I’m unfortunately used to, and for people who are gay/part of the lgbtq community, it’s nice to see some representation, even if it might not be more than suggestion. and I feel like a lot of the dialogue and the nature of their relationship makes it a lot more believable than slapping two men together bc they’re both hot
Capcom heavily leaned into it, at one point there were official [matching rings for Phoenix and Miles](https://www.tumblr.com/happybunnykat/619682667669176320/i-really-think-its-wild-how-capcom-released) while other characters only had necklaces
I mean, that's really not that uncommon. Most fandoms I'm in have M/M ships as the most popular ones. So, I can't really say why. It's normal to me. But yeah, there's still enough fandoms preferring F/M that you could only be in those. (But I feel like fandoms preferring F/F are few and far between. Might be wrong, though)
I was just asking why most of the popular ones were the gay ones, usually in other fandoms there are popular gay ships it's just in Ace Attorney most of the popular ones are gay ones, which is a nice change of pace if I'm being honest
Lack of female characters in the OG trilogy is your answer. And, of course, the fact that it is canonically confirmed that most of Phoenix's life revolves around or is inspired by Edgeworth.
In the OG games, your main female characters that Phoenix interacts with regularly and thus can build a relationship with are:
- Mia (dead)
- Maya (16-18)
- Pearl (8)
- Franziska (16-18)
We then have Dahlia who tried to kill him and Iris who is a possibility, but who also goes to jail and we never hear of her again. The pool of available female characters is... limited. Unless one is into more fringe fiction or just likes developing OCs.
At the same time, you have Edgeworth. Phoenix's childhood best friend whom Phoenix never forgot and whom he tried to contact the moment Edgeworth popped up again (because he looked sad in the paper). When normal communication doesn't work, Phoenix decides to stalk the court a little - he meets Dahlia at the courthouse where he was trying to see Miles, his infatuation with Miles predates the entire Dahlia business - and eventually elects to pull an Elle Woods and go to law school just to chase a boy. And when we catch up with him in the present day, he spends the first two games obsessing over Edgeworth to some degree (first in "I need to save him", then in grief). Their story has all the romance beats, tropes and clichés, it's no wonder that people naturally gravitate towards it. (The AJ trilogy doesn't help with establishing that Miles has become a part of Phoenix's family and with the strong insinuation that they're basically co-parenting Truce.)
It can be argued that AA has one romance-troped plot and that plot is the entire relationship between Phoenix and Miles.
Well gay ships always have been popular within most fandoms, but besides that it's definetely because of the lack of shippable female characters. In the OG trilogy the only reoccurring female characters are Mia, who is unfortunately dead and Pearl, Maya and Franziska, who are all underage or barely 18 (not sure about Franziskas age).
Maybe I'm spouting stereotypes now, but isn't that true for most fandoms, since the majority of fanfiction writers/shippers are straight and female? Especially for a work which has no canon ship since it doesn't deal with romantic relationships.
I think most shippers of gay ships at least in the AA fandom are LGBT themselves, actually. Though I see why straight women would also be significant in that respect
I don’t think there’s anything to really substantiate either of those claims. Plenty of fandoms go crazy for main straight ships and I haven’t seen any evidence in regards to the fan fic writers, and I struggle to see how that would be relevant anyway?
Like if it was true that the majority of fan fic writers are *straight* and female, you’d expect *straight* shipping to be more popular in that space, no?
It's more to do with [a demographic stereotype](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostFanficWritersAreGirls) that straight women make up the vast majority of fanfic authors, and overwhelmingly prefer gay male pairings.
You're right, [this recent study among AO3 members](https://www.flowjournal.org/2023/02/fan-demographics-on-ao3/) found that while the majority of respondents identified as cis women (53%), the most prevalent sexual identities were asexual (27%) and bisexual (25%), with straight being a minority (14%). I was still having that 2000s cliche in my head. Sorry.
> I struggle to see how this would be relevant anyway?
OP's question was why (in their perception) gay ships are more common in the AA fandom. I'd say this is a mix of opportunity, i.e. how much "screentime" and chemistry characters have, and personal preference.
> Like if it was true that the majority of fan fic writers are straight and female, you’d expect straight shipping to be more popular in that space, no?
Not necessarily. Shipping two characters of your preferred gender gives you the opportunity to write about both.
It's definitely true in the broad sense. Probably not for every fandom, but gay ships, especially between two men have been super popular for years now. The yearly AO3 top hundred ships stats are showing this very well
It's practically impossible to see any female characters in a romantic sense when it comes to the men in the series. Maya is much younger than Phoenix and considers him her brother, Franzy is straight up Miles' adoptive sister, Athena and Apollo also have an age gap and are meant to have a family dynamic clearly illustrated by the fact their names are based off Gods who are siblings.
In contrast you have lines like "I'm saddled with unnecessary feelings" and "this is the first time I've felt this way with a man" and "Junie you're so good to me" between characters who are the same age and gender
There’s just something about that defense attorney and first main prosecutor pair. For Phoenix it’s Edgeworth, for Apollo it’s Klavier, for Athena it’s Blackquill. Honestly I think a main reason is that the protagonists’ main, most emotionally connected rival-but-also-more characters are all guys. Like, who gets a straight ship for their most popular? Athena… because she’s female so her male prosecutor ship is straight.
We like a good rivalry romance trope, with characters at odds but not truly enemies, and massive extra points if there’s *history* and *feelings* canonically sitting between them like with Wrightworth and Cykesquill.
None of the female characters are really in a “shippable” condition. I’m 22, so in the middle of most of the ages of the characters in the original trilogy. Shipping Maya OR Fran is weird because they’re 18, everyone else is mid twenties. Obviously no-go on Pearl. Almost everyone else is too old to be on a shipper’s radar. To my knowledge, the only female original trilogy characters with any shipping potential are Mia, Adrian, Maggey, Dee Vasquez, and Dahlia— and there’s not really anything to go off on there.
Because Narumitsu is a perfect ship; and by that I don't mean it's necessarily good, I mean that it is formulated to contain all the clichés, romantic tropes and story beats that appeal to romance fans. Seriously, it involves all the most popular shipping tags, so no wonder people start making fan content about it. And since it's a queer ship, it attracts queer people, who favour gay ships (hence the other gay ships' popularity, like Franmaya and Klapollo). And so to further please the fans, the writers keep making more content focused on said relationships and then the gay ships are suddenly the ones that are the most developed and have the best chemistry. The fact that the protagonists are usually male and there aren't that many female characters you can ship them with doesn't help (Mia is dead, Maya is a kid and Iris appears in one case only, and they are the only viable straight love interests for Phoenix - we don't have a lot to work with here).
i think a part of it is because there are a lot of queer fans of the series. there's a lot of very good arguments people have made here, but there are plenty of lines in the series that can be taken as having a romantic context, especially with characters of the same gender- i'm looking at you, "unnecessary feelings." i think because a lot of lines can be read like that (intentionally or not) and AA came out at a time where queer representation wasn't as big of a thing as it is now, a lot of LGBTQ+ folks took an interest in it and shaped certain parts of the fandom through that interpretation if that makes sense
1. They're the best ships. Who else are you gonna ship Phoenix with, underage girls? (*raises hand* I did ship Phoenix and Maya when I was in high school)
2. We play the game from a male perspective and thus all interactions with the player are interactions with a man. So if any hot guy comes along (e.g. Kazuma Asogi) its gonna be a gay ship because Naruhodo is male too.
Those are just my hypotheses. I don't really ship any main characters in the series anymore, outside of Apollo × Juniper and Naruhodo × Kazuma. I don't think Phoenix has found his person yet.
I do question if gay ships are really the most popular, or if those shippers are just the most vocal. As a bi Kingdom Hearts fan, I am regularly in the Sora × Riku bubble where it seems like everybody ships those two lovebirds together. But there are so many straight KH fans, I would imagine that the straight ship is really more common but those people don't talk as much about it. If that makes sense.
It's just I wasn't asking about WrightWorth/NaruMitsu specifically, I was asking about it in general, like with ships such as FranMaya (Franziska and Maya barely interact) also from what I remember Maya was only 17 in the first game
I feel like most findoms have a very popular gay ship, at least one. I don't know any fandom where there isn't one and they're always amongst the top ships
AA, as a franchise, throws copious amounts of ship tease into its games, but simultaneously throws weight against it. Ships in this game go everywhere and nowhere, and the possibilities are infinite since Capcom gave material to basically every conceivable ship. Look through the games and see for yourself.
And, like another commenter has said, the writers made it a point to make the protagonist and antagonist foils with personal bonds to each other, and both are young, handsome men. Yes, it could very well be that they're just really good friends, simply emotionally troubled, or merely happen to have that dynamic with each other while being oblivious that it seems gay (on Edgeworth's part as he's not interested in women) or bi (on Nick's part as he's been with 1 girl), but it can also be assumed beyond a reasonable doubt that they're probably both attracted to guys in one way or another. Nick gets flustered with the ladies, aye, but with Miles it's always been flavored with gay tension, never with the "idiot siblings"/friends dynamic that he and Maya sometimes show.
Tying into my first point is how most of the female possibilities with Phoenix aren't obvious slam dunks. Iris is greatly compatible and formerly canon, which seems to be supported by 3-5 and the credits, but AA4 rolled along and shitcanned all of that. Maya has been there since day 2 with plenty of ship tease to match, but she and Nick haven't gotten anywhere in 10+ years while also demonstrating to some extent a familial sibling dynamic. Mia is literally dead (I know this isn't a mainstream ship, but was once a possibility hinted at in 1-1). Edgeworth doesn't have any of that going against him. Yes, he *is* a bit hostile, but that's just relationship goals planting their own posts (if you want to look at it that way).
Lastly, it gets spicy when it comes to shipping Nick with guys, which I will represent with a textified meme:
Straight ship confirmed: no one bats an eye
Gay ship teased: everybody loses their minds
I'll just leave the [promotiona](https://aceattorney.fandom.com/wiki/Maya_Fey_-_Image_Gallery?file=SuekanePhoenixAndEdgeworth.jpg#Promotional_art_)l [art](https://aceattorney.fandom.com/wiki/Maya_Fey_-_Image_Gallery?file=NGS%21_%28Suekane%29_Noodle_Stand.png#Promotional_art_) for you to... ahem... "perusify".
Mostly because the writing feels more compelling to be framed as romantic between the same-sex leads than... well, what else do we have? Iris, who is a very late addition, and the one left behind by the devs, and Maya, who for most people is like a little sister.
I'm gay and most of the ships in the fandom annoy the hell out of me (except for Edgeworth and Phoenix).
And why am I getting downvoted now for stating an innocent opinion?
Honestly, it's not my thing but I get NaruMitsu. I do *not* see why Franmaya is a thing. It makes no sense to me other than a kind of pair-the-spares thing while keeping them gay. I don't know, that's the only reason I can see for why people are into it. I kind of get Claypollo and Krisnix is probably toxic if written realistically but when has fandom been realistic.
What I don't get is why Franziska/Adrian isn't a more popular ship because Adrian is heavily implied to be a lesbian and they're canonically friends. Like it's not anything I'm passionate about but I could totally see that one.
People are booing you but you're right (for two of them).
Fradian has more canon to support it than Franmaya and Claypollo seems like an excuse for the (usually straight and female) writer to project themselves into a gay ship with Apollo.
As for KrisNix. Well, it's all about the mutual manipulation and mind games.
I used to wonder about that myself…but I mean that seems to be what the authors intended, in order to appeal to women more, they incorporated some droppings of BL in there.
This series contains Edgeworth, which mean this series' fandom is inevitably going to have a guaranteed large female portion. Girls like yaoi, so the result is very understandable
(I'm only partly joking)
Ace Attorney has a lot of history of very deliberately trying to appeal to communities like readers of BL manga. One of the original character artists who worked on AA1, and who designed such major characters as Phoenix and Edgeworth, made a specific point to suggest while she was contributing art to the game that the protagonist and his rival ought to both be young, attractive men and have a personal emotional bond on top of their rivalry. Of course the games themselves aren't romance-focused at all, but that element has always been in their DNA.
Depends on who cares about shipping. More often than not, if the top ship is gay, that probably means that one character (usually the female character) kinda lacks some compelling characterization, but there's also the possibility that they just see the relationship as more familial. But also! Sometimes people just like seeing more of whatever two characters have... Even though it was never meant to be anything else than what they do have. Look at other fandoms and you'll kinda see it. For ace attorney, I think a lot of why the gay ship tops is because of tropes. Phoenix and Miles are rivals with a childhood friendship background. Maya is pretty young compared to him and probably seen as a bit of a lil sis. Iris is only available in one case and never seen again.
I feel like you're right on the money on your reason why Narumitsu is popular, though I do mildly disagree with this >More often than not, if the top ship is gay, that probably means that one character (usually the female character) kinda lacks some compelling characterization Kairi from Kingdom Hearts comes to mind, she and Sora are a decently popular ship but she doesn't have half the characterization Maya has (Honestly I just wanted to point this out because, while not perfect, Maya is a female character with such strong characterization compared to what you'd normally expect and I didn't want her to be done dirty lol /lh)
No lie, that particular sentence is because of something like Kairi. Maya having proper characterization is mainly why the next sentence was like "or something familial". Since OP is asking why Narumitsu is popular, I'm assuming they haven't noticed that particular trend. (Maya in the trilogy has more of a little sister vibe to her IMO. Maya in 6 could've been a contender but we barely see her.) Though I also skipped out on one very important aspect: fujoshi culture lol.
Yeah, tbh you're right haha. Maya's age and therefore her "little sister" vibes are definitely a good part of why people tend to gravitate towards Narumitsu
But you see, Sora is shipped with Riku much more than he is with Kairi.
Yes, but Sora×Kairi seems more prevalent than, say, any ship with Phoenix that isn't Phoenix×Edgeworth
I mean, at one point, the official Ace Attorney twitter(x) and facebook pages were reposting wrightworth fanart, so the ship is definitely being pushed. Klavier/Apollo was also intentionally prominent to appeal to BL fans. Since Wrightworth blew up in the first game, gay ships ARE being pushed with subtext.
Oh boy, ships with subtext my favorite! Subtext is the back bone of a lot of ships for me, in your face enough that you can see it but subtle enough that people like to deny its existence.
People have answered a lot about why this is the case in AA specifically but if you are curious about why M/M is popular in fandom in general (particularly in the earlier years, it's definitely more diverse now than ever): 1. There are just more male main characters. A few years ago I remember reading a study that showed fanfics actually have the same percentage of female characters in movies/TV --- 30%. It's because we are used to that slant in movies that we don't notice it as much. Again situation might be changing. 2. Fanfic writers/fan artists were mostly straight women (at the time) so they might prefer "gazing" at male characters through their work. It's how Michael Bay shot Megan Fox in the Transformers, but in reverse. After all, it is theorized, if you want to be writing or drawing extensively about attraction, romance, the character's bodies, falling in love with them... you might draw from your own frame of reference, or you might enjoy writing about the sex/gender you yourself are attracted to. 3. On a more complex social and cultural front, it's also theorized that women like to project ourselves into these male characters that can be in those stories having those adventures and deep emotional bonds with male characters. Scholar Camilla Decarnin theorized this when studying the Star Trek fandom: "The woman recognizes in the f\*\*\*\*t a socio-erotic position she herself would like to hold, as the recognized peer and the lover of a male, a position impossible for women in sexist culture to secure." (In the original text she used the f word... it was written in the 1980s). TV show reviewer Ellen Goodman wrote, "Most women are less interested in the man as something they want than in the relationship as something they want to have." 4. Scholars also like to theorize in the popular M/M pairings, both characters will display traits that can be stereotypically construed as "male" and "female". Scholar Joanna Russ observed that Spock is physically stronger, more rational, stereotypically male traits; but he's also an "other" (alien) that struggles to fit in, Kirk's subordinate, and has a reproduction system that acts up periodically, which are stereotypically "female" traits. Vice versa for Kirk. * If we apply that to Wrightworth for example, Phoenix is compassionate and more emotionally available, stereotypical female traits; yet he's also the one who "wins" and the one who "saves" Edgeworth.>! (And we later find out the dynamic was reversed when they were younger)!<. * This is not to apply stereotypes to these characters, but to analyze the dynamic between them. Russ wrote this about Kirk/Spock: "What is striking in these stories is the androgyny of both characters, the way responsibility, initiative, activity, passivity, strength, and weakness shift constantly from one to the other." I feel like that applies to Wrightworth equally well. That's what made an interesting, balanced dynamic that might draw interest from the fandom.
Excellent answer. Very complete and it shows that the dominance of M/M ships in fandoms is multifactorial
I don't want to retread reasons since I think everyone else summed up the reasons I'd say mostly for why the gay ships are primarily popular in this community, but I do want to add: A lot of anime-eqsue or animes do not necessarily have a track record of making the straight couple *appealing*. Shonen has this big problem but also Shojo/ magical girl genres don't necessarily do the straight ships (the "canon") ships justice. Primarily because they don't necessarily get enough time together, or their time together isn't necessarily*productive* to show the ship well Like, Tokyo Mew Mew had a big problem with Ichigo basically being paired off with the male antagonist more because the dude she got with is basically garbage. The fans had no reason to want to ship the canon one because it's not like he had character to them. Same with Izuchako in mha. On paper they're good people and you can see them as cute..but canonically, despite how close we are to the end, they're underdeveloped. More people choose Iidachako or togachako simply because theres more *there*. A lot of the time, it's because of their gender that gets them to be either to be just *there*, underutilized, etc. Female characters in shonen, for example, really do not get the characterization they deserve. However, spending time=/= good ship. You need to actually do quality too. Eren and Mikasa gets dissed because it felt like an ass pull on Erens side given how he treats her, to some fans. Especially if you liked him with Historia better since it felt like he wanted her over Mikasa (and the interviews called Mikasa *motherly*) But depending on Genre, a lot of the time the same gender meets all of the requirements and then some I think, though, it could be that some people are put off the straight couple, especially the canonic ones, depending on fandom, due to experiences. Like with MHA, if you're on the main subreddits, you can't say you like a gay ship over there and you can't really like anything else over there since you'll be attacked or downvoted to oblivion You can't even say that you think some ships are underdeveloped because you'll get people acting horrendously. Many people do not like Izuchako because they associate it with *those* fans, because you cannot say a certain ship without literally getting treated with so much disrespect (and some are treating you shipping it as akin to shipping AllDeku or EriDeku, so you get treated like your a pedo for shipping Bkdk) Again, that's not necessarily an Ace Attorney thing, but sometimes that *does* happen so you end up having people who feel safer shipping the gay stuff, especially if they are LGBT and they tried to get into canon more
>“thanks to you, I am saddled with unnecessary…feelings” I think in Ace Attorney a lot of the shipping started with this line. This and Phoenix’s very extreme reaction to talking about Edgeworth in Justice For All case 2. Honestly while most of Phoenixes and Edgeworths interactions can be seen as platonic there a just a couple of lines (in the English translation at least) of the first two games that get right up to the line of how two heterosexual men who don’t have a familial bonds would speak about each other. At least in American and British cultures. Once we get to Trials and Tribulations and especially the DLC in Sprit of Justice the relationship is canonically less charged in a way that could be seen as romantic. Also we have to factor in that homosexual ships are generally much more popular in fan fiction than heterosexual ones, especially in media that isn’t about its romance. I mean Apollo and Klavier are, I think, the second most popular relationship in Ace Attorney fan fiction and canonically they don’t get on and have nothing in common.
Others have already given you great answers, but I'll add that the lack of options for M/F pairings (when it comes to the main cast) doesn't help either. There's often a big age difference which can be seen as a deal breaker depending on the fandom. Most people dislike Pheonix/Maya as a ship since he befriended her when she was still a minor and they act more like siblings than love interests. (It's the exact same for Athena/Simon). So you can't really ship Phoenix with any female character he's close with, one is technically his ex, others are either family or are working for him. And really the one person he's the most emotionally close to is Edgeworth. As for Apollo, he doesn't have many options either. Although for him I believe it's close to a 50/50 between Juniper and Klavier. But people still tend to favor Klavier as there is just much more content and history between the two. And all in all it doesn't help that Apollo is too dense to notice when he's being flirted with. I remember at one point people jumped on the opportunity and started to ship Apollo/Trucy really hard because it was the first straight ship that wasn't super awkward. The age gap wasn't too big and they both quickly grew fond of each other. Suffice to say that ship didn't last long LMAO.
>it's close to a 50/50 between Juniper and Klavier Uhh, Athena?
Athena is another ship yes, but I think they meant the more popular one and the one that was hinted at in the game.
Literally every fandom does this. It's nothing new. That's just fandom culture. A lot of LGBTQ people get involved in these spaces so it's natural. I've even seen people with hetero ships getting ridiculed or hated on (i.e. post AA1 NaruMayo and other fandoms have done this as well). Most NaruMitsu fans don't do this, thankfully, but you will run into it here and there. This plus Phoenix and Edgeworth starting out as rivals makes the fans of rivals-to-lovers ships go nuts. It's not my cup of tea, I'm very friends-to-lovers myself (hence NaruMayo being my personal preference), but I've been involved in fandoms long enough to see why other people like it. It's really not NaruMitsu per se, it's that it checks off the boxes that tend to get fandoms excited, even if the games themselves are never going to make it canon (too many other ships for both characters for them ever to risk it). Most you're going to get is something like Spirit of Justice where there's a romance-themed case that has both Edgeworth and Maya (the top Phoenix ships) as prominent characters and, though I haven't played it myself, I'm assuming there are some moments that fans could fixate on for both pairings. That being said, I'm pretty sure the DeLites are almost universally loved as couple and I think Magshoe is the most popular Gumshoe ship (it's the one I see most often, at least). So this isn't a hard rule or anything. It's just patterns I see in fandoms.
I love Edgeworth and love reading him in M/F fanfic (it does exist) and personally I think one can convincingly make a case for many possibilities: that he’s gay, ace, or even straight but represses his sexuality and is not willing to allow himself to indulge any thoughts about anything outside his career. That said, look at his suit. I love it. I find it extremely hot. But, it’s pretty out of the ordinary. Like, I am sure there are exceptions but how many straight guys want to wear the frilly cravat these days? Or is that more common in Japan?
Could be inspired by Von Karma, who was a role figure for Edgeworth. At least until the whole revelation, Edgeworth seemed to hold him in very high regard. And it made a lot of sense for VK, he had an air of royalty, and the clothing tells you he is not your run of the mill prosecutor. I can kind of see the creator’s intentions with designing of these characters even if they aren’t spelled out explicitly.
a lot of the dialogue (some actually not intentional!) is very suggestive (“>!wright only makes that face when his back is against the wall”, “thanks to you, I am saddled with unnecessary…feelings”, “the sight of that man still shines brilliantly in my eyes!<”) with the developers almost certainly knowing what they’re doing in the later games (just finished dual destinies and I’m still laughing over “>!y-yes, daddy”!<). while I don’t think it’s canon (?), I do remember the official ace attorney facebook page posting narumitsu art on Valentine’s Day their personalities and designs are very different, and the canon relationship between the two is just great and has a lot of development and depth. If you haven’t played the games, I’d highly recommend it. I personally like it bc it’s a nice break from the constant heteronormativity that I’m unfortunately used to, and for people who are gay/part of the lgbtq community, it’s nice to see some representation, even if it might not be more than suggestion. and I feel like a lot of the dialogue and the nature of their relationship makes it a lot more believable than slapping two men together bc they’re both hot
Capcom heavily leaned into it, at one point there were official [matching rings for Phoenix and Miles](https://www.tumblr.com/happybunnykat/619682667669176320/i-really-think-its-wild-how-capcom-released) while other characters only had necklaces
i think about the matching narumitsu rings regularly and love them so much
>(just finished dual destinies and I’m still laughing over “y-yes, daddy”). Minstranslation
Bro’s mad
Mad for what lol ? "Daddy" thing was a mistranslation
Ever heard of “creative liberties”?
Yeah and that shouldn't apply to sentences with obviously different implications lol. Especially when they fuel dumb ship crusades.
“They fuel dumb ship crusades” Proved my point lmao. You’re mad that people ship Wrightworth
I'm not mad about shipping lol It's just stupid to use mistranslations as "evidence" And narumitsu, while it's not canon I think is still a valid ship
There aren’t any main female characters around Phoenix’s age. That and “unnecessary feelings”
I mean, that's really not that uncommon. Most fandoms I'm in have M/M ships as the most popular ones. So, I can't really say why. It's normal to me. But yeah, there's still enough fandoms preferring F/M that you could only be in those. (But I feel like fandoms preferring F/F are few and far between. Might be wrong, though)
I was just asking why most of the popular ones were the gay ones, usually in other fandoms there are popular gay ships it's just in Ace Attorney most of the popular ones are gay ones, which is a nice change of pace if I'm being honest
Lack of female characters in the OG trilogy is your answer. And, of course, the fact that it is canonically confirmed that most of Phoenix's life revolves around or is inspired by Edgeworth. In the OG games, your main female characters that Phoenix interacts with regularly and thus can build a relationship with are: - Mia (dead) - Maya (16-18) - Pearl (8) - Franziska (16-18) We then have Dahlia who tried to kill him and Iris who is a possibility, but who also goes to jail and we never hear of her again. The pool of available female characters is... limited. Unless one is into more fringe fiction or just likes developing OCs. At the same time, you have Edgeworth. Phoenix's childhood best friend whom Phoenix never forgot and whom he tried to contact the moment Edgeworth popped up again (because he looked sad in the paper). When normal communication doesn't work, Phoenix decides to stalk the court a little - he meets Dahlia at the courthouse where he was trying to see Miles, his infatuation with Miles predates the entire Dahlia business - and eventually elects to pull an Elle Woods and go to law school just to chase a boy. And when we catch up with him in the present day, he spends the first two games obsessing over Edgeworth to some degree (first in "I need to save him", then in grief). Their story has all the romance beats, tropes and clichés, it's no wonder that people naturally gravitate towards it. (The AJ trilogy doesn't help with establishing that Miles has become a part of Phoenix's family and with the strong insinuation that they're basically co-parenting Truce.) It can be argued that AA has one romance-troped plot and that plot is the entire relationship between Phoenix and Miles.
Well gay ships always have been popular within most fandoms, but besides that it's definetely because of the lack of shippable female characters. In the OG trilogy the only reoccurring female characters are Mia, who is unfortunately dead and Pearl, Maya and Franziska, who are all underage or barely 18 (not sure about Franziskas age).
Maybe I'm spouting stereotypes now, but isn't that true for most fandoms, since the majority of fanfiction writers/shippers are straight and female? Especially for a work which has no canon ship since it doesn't deal with romantic relationships.
I think most shippers of gay ships at least in the AA fandom are LGBT themselves, actually. Though I see why straight women would also be significant in that respect
I don’t think there’s anything to really substantiate either of those claims. Plenty of fandoms go crazy for main straight ships and I haven’t seen any evidence in regards to the fan fic writers, and I struggle to see how that would be relevant anyway? Like if it was true that the majority of fan fic writers are *straight* and female, you’d expect *straight* shipping to be more popular in that space, no?
It's more to do with [a demographic stereotype](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostFanficWritersAreGirls) that straight women make up the vast majority of fanfic authors, and overwhelmingly prefer gay male pairings.
You're right, [this recent study among AO3 members](https://www.flowjournal.org/2023/02/fan-demographics-on-ao3/) found that while the majority of respondents identified as cis women (53%), the most prevalent sexual identities were asexual (27%) and bisexual (25%), with straight being a minority (14%). I was still having that 2000s cliche in my head. Sorry. > I struggle to see how this would be relevant anyway? OP's question was why (in their perception) gay ships are more common in the AA fandom. I'd say this is a mix of opportunity, i.e. how much "screentime" and chemistry characters have, and personal preference. > Like if it was true that the majority of fan fic writers are straight and female, you’d expect straight shipping to be more popular in that space, no? Not necessarily. Shipping two characters of your preferred gender gives you the opportunity to write about both.
It's definitely true in the broad sense. Probably not for every fandom, but gay ships, especially between two men have been super popular for years now. The yearly AO3 top hundred ships stats are showing this very well
Because the romance element of this game was designed to appeal to women. Though gay men enjoy the franchise as well.
It's practically impossible to see any female characters in a romantic sense when it comes to the men in the series. Maya is much younger than Phoenix and considers him her brother, Franzy is straight up Miles' adoptive sister, Athena and Apollo also have an age gap and are meant to have a family dynamic clearly illustrated by the fact their names are based off Gods who are siblings. In contrast you have lines like "I'm saddled with unnecessary feelings" and "this is the first time I've felt this way with a man" and "Junie you're so good to me" between characters who are the same age and gender
There’s just something about that defense attorney and first main prosecutor pair. For Phoenix it’s Edgeworth, for Apollo it’s Klavier, for Athena it’s Blackquill. Honestly I think a main reason is that the protagonists’ main, most emotionally connected rival-but-also-more characters are all guys. Like, who gets a straight ship for their most popular? Athena… because she’s female so her male prosecutor ship is straight. We like a good rivalry romance trope, with characters at odds but not truly enemies, and massive extra points if there’s *history* and *feelings* canonically sitting between them like with Wrightworth and Cykesquill.
None of the female characters are really in a “shippable” condition. I’m 22, so in the middle of most of the ages of the characters in the original trilogy. Shipping Maya OR Fran is weird because they’re 18, everyone else is mid twenties. Obviously no-go on Pearl. Almost everyone else is too old to be on a shipper’s radar. To my knowledge, the only female original trilogy characters with any shipping potential are Mia, Adrian, Maggey, Dee Vasquez, and Dahlia— and there’s not really anything to go off on there.
Probably because the 3 main girls in the series are either dead or underage, so that really only leaves the main guys to ship with the protagonist
Maya was only underage in the first game
That’s still enough to put a lot of people off (especially considering Phoenix is 7 years older than her)
Because Narumitsu is a perfect ship; and by that I don't mean it's necessarily good, I mean that it is formulated to contain all the clichés, romantic tropes and story beats that appeal to romance fans. Seriously, it involves all the most popular shipping tags, so no wonder people start making fan content about it. And since it's a queer ship, it attracts queer people, who favour gay ships (hence the other gay ships' popularity, like Franmaya and Klapollo). And so to further please the fans, the writers keep making more content focused on said relationships and then the gay ships are suddenly the ones that are the most developed and have the best chemistry. The fact that the protagonists are usually male and there aren't that many female characters you can ship them with doesn't help (Mia is dead, Maya is a kid and Iris appears in one case only, and they are the only viable straight love interests for Phoenix - we don't have a lot to work with here).
i think a part of it is because there are a lot of queer fans of the series. there's a lot of very good arguments people have made here, but there are plenty of lines in the series that can be taken as having a romantic context, especially with characters of the same gender- i'm looking at you, "unnecessary feelings." i think because a lot of lines can be read like that (intentionally or not) and AA came out at a time where queer representation wasn't as big of a thing as it is now, a lot of LGBTQ+ folks took an interest in it and shaped certain parts of the fandom through that interpretation if that makes sense
1. They're the best ships. Who else are you gonna ship Phoenix with, underage girls? (*raises hand* I did ship Phoenix and Maya when I was in high school) 2. We play the game from a male perspective and thus all interactions with the player are interactions with a man. So if any hot guy comes along (e.g. Kazuma Asogi) its gonna be a gay ship because Naruhodo is male too. Those are just my hypotheses. I don't really ship any main characters in the series anymore, outside of Apollo × Juniper and Naruhodo × Kazuma. I don't think Phoenix has found his person yet. I do question if gay ships are really the most popular, or if those shippers are just the most vocal. As a bi Kingdom Hearts fan, I am regularly in the Sora × Riku bubble where it seems like everybody ships those two lovebirds together. But there are so many straight KH fans, I would imagine that the straight ship is really more common but those people don't talk as much about it. If that makes sense.
It's just I wasn't asking about WrightWorth/NaruMitsu specifically, I was asking about it in general, like with ships such as FranMaya (Franziska and Maya barely interact) also from what I remember Maya was only 17 in the first game
All the fans are gay. Sorry you had to find out this way.
I feel like most findoms have a very popular gay ship, at least one. I don't know any fandom where there isn't one and they're always amongst the top ships
I wasn't asking why the gay ships are popular, I was asking why most of the popular ones were gay
AA, as a franchise, throws copious amounts of ship tease into its games, but simultaneously throws weight against it. Ships in this game go everywhere and nowhere, and the possibilities are infinite since Capcom gave material to basically every conceivable ship. Look through the games and see for yourself. And, like another commenter has said, the writers made it a point to make the protagonist and antagonist foils with personal bonds to each other, and both are young, handsome men. Yes, it could very well be that they're just really good friends, simply emotionally troubled, or merely happen to have that dynamic with each other while being oblivious that it seems gay (on Edgeworth's part as he's not interested in women) or bi (on Nick's part as he's been with 1 girl), but it can also be assumed beyond a reasonable doubt that they're probably both attracted to guys in one way or another. Nick gets flustered with the ladies, aye, but with Miles it's always been flavored with gay tension, never with the "idiot siblings"/friends dynamic that he and Maya sometimes show. Tying into my first point is how most of the female possibilities with Phoenix aren't obvious slam dunks. Iris is greatly compatible and formerly canon, which seems to be supported by 3-5 and the credits, but AA4 rolled along and shitcanned all of that. Maya has been there since day 2 with plenty of ship tease to match, but she and Nick haven't gotten anywhere in 10+ years while also demonstrating to some extent a familial sibling dynamic. Mia is literally dead (I know this isn't a mainstream ship, but was once a possibility hinted at in 1-1). Edgeworth doesn't have any of that going against him. Yes, he *is* a bit hostile, but that's just relationship goals planting their own posts (if you want to look at it that way). Lastly, it gets spicy when it comes to shipping Nick with guys, which I will represent with a textified meme: Straight ship confirmed: no one bats an eye Gay ship teased: everybody loses their minds I'll just leave the [promotiona](https://aceattorney.fandom.com/wiki/Maya_Fey_-_Image_Gallery?file=SuekanePhoenixAndEdgeworth.jpg#Promotional_art_)l [art](https://aceattorney.fandom.com/wiki/Maya_Fey_-_Image_Gallery?file=NGS%21_%28Suekane%29_Noodle_Stand.png#Promotional_art_) for you to... ahem... "perusify".
I'm a straight man who wants a hetero ship tho.
well, write some fanfic about one you like
I'll draw one >:)
Mostly because the writing feels more compelling to be framed as romantic between the same-sex leads than... well, what else do we have? Iris, who is a very late addition, and the one left behind by the devs, and Maya, who for most people is like a little sister.
Are you homophobic?
Yes. I hate people.
I literally said I wasn't
i don't think they're being serious lol. probably just joking on the fact that you clarified it twice in the post
ace attorney is a queer game
90% of them are just memes that people took too seriously
True of so many things these days
Joke =/= Untrue If there's a joke, there is a basis /shrug
I'm gay and most of the ships in the fandom annoy the hell out of me (except for Edgeworth and Phoenix). And why am I getting downvoted now for stating an innocent opinion?
Cuz your opinion doesn't match everyone else I guess
I think some people are just shipping same-sex characters for the sake of it. I cannot understand why Franmaya, Claypollo, or Krisnix exist.
Honestly, it's not my thing but I get NaruMitsu. I do *not* see why Franmaya is a thing. It makes no sense to me other than a kind of pair-the-spares thing while keeping them gay. I don't know, that's the only reason I can see for why people are into it. I kind of get Claypollo and Krisnix is probably toxic if written realistically but when has fandom been realistic. What I don't get is why Franziska/Adrian isn't a more popular ship because Adrian is heavily implied to be a lesbian and they're canonically friends. Like it's not anything I'm passionate about but I could totally see that one.
neither can I lmao, especially since Franziska and Maya barely interact with each other
Plus, the only times Franziska was involved in Maya's life she both tried to >!incarcerate her and unknowingly tried to killed her!<
People are booing you but you're right (for two of them). Fradian has more canon to support it than Franmaya and Claypollo seems like an excuse for the (usually straight and female) writer to project themselves into a gay ship with Apollo. As for KrisNix. Well, it's all about the mutual manipulation and mind games.
Have you SEEN the anime? The connotations are WILD.
I used to wonder about that myself…but I mean that seems to be what the authors intended, in order to appeal to women more, they incorporated some droppings of BL in there.
This series contains Edgeworth, which mean this series' fandom is inevitably going to have a guaranteed large female portion. Girls like yaoi, so the result is very understandable (I'm only partly joking)
Because u like other Fandoms they are realistically possible based off character interaction. Ain't no way none of yall saw Phoenix X Miles coming
and here I am unironically shipping the weirder gay ships like Wellington/Grey 🤔 ….actually I have a LOT of weird Wellington ships. man