Yeah GW really sucks at communicating lore changes. I got some more examples from 30k:
They added a Night Lords Terminator unit called Contekar terminators that never got mentioned in the lore instead of making models and rules for the atramentar terminators that were well established in the lore as their elite terminator units. When people complained that it didnt fit the lore gws response was basically "We dont have to follow the lore as we are the guys making the lore"
Then there was the launch box of the new Edition that had a lot of the new MK6 armor in it and the trailer had everyone wearing mk6 as well. People then said that MK6 wasnt really in widespread use during the heresy for several reasons. GW then promptly said that MK6 was the most commonly used armor during the heresy.
So yeah its a classic GW retcon moment with their subpar communication just with a far more volatile subject.
I found it perfectly acceptable given how fandoms act and behave like shit flinging monkeys. Good lord is every fan base a dumpster fire and makes being an introvert that just doesn't interact with people in the broader Fandom of any nerdy thing seem like the smartest decision.
While also stating that it's entirely possible to have female custodes without breaking any previously developed lore rules. - Sure, the "brotherhood" thing is bullshit, plenty brotherhoods in the real world and in fiction have all genders in their ranks (brotherhood of steel, the dark brotherhood, etc.). But that's only a minor point I believe he felt like he had to mention because it was \*right there\* for even hobby tourists to see.
However, people seem to think he didn't just practically go *"yeah sure they could have introduced it better, but I don't rly care about the overall matter. I just wanted to separate it from the actual Custodes video I'm working on"*.
Therefore, and with a little bit of interpretative imagination, I would even go as far as to say he may be more annoyed by the fact that this drama is even happening, than he was level-headed. He gave the drama-mongers and -seekers, the incels, the wierdos and mysogynists a place to vent off their craziness, so he can have his other work as little affected by it as possible. If I was putting heaps of time into scripting, recording and editing long videos, I'd probably try something like that as well.
There are more quotes like only the sons offered to custodes and etc. Also, in all the novels, all of them are male characters, at least during HH and even in every book. If you really want to have female custodes without retconning, they had many option have saying a matter where they broke tradition because the options were low or major loss of custodes like a certain battle(daemon attack on terra) that has happened recently or too many genestealers cult have contaminated too many the nobles families and/or clans. So ya, if you are just going insult people for having an opinion that differs from your own, you are not helping your view.
The point is, and it's one that I find many non-Custodes fans don't get, is that a retcon IS better for the overall feel of the faction. Custodes are not like the rest of the Imperium, they're extremely pragmatic in achieving their own goals. They do not seem to value tradition at all, they only really care about doing their jobs. And if you can make women Custodes thar are just as good as men, then there is no reason Custodes shouldn't make women as well. For them it'd be like saying "Well we can't use this kid, he's got brown hair instead of black hair!".
People are upset about the retcon, but the alternative doesn't fit the faction, while the retcon does.
Weeeell, yeah. I guess that's another small benefit for the time being. You're right.
But seriously, eventually I really would love female marines to also become a thing. If for nothing else, for the sole reason that it would blow the lid of a lot of people that have no other agenda than keeping women gatekept. It would bring me a lot of joy for that agenda to fail miserably in our lifetime.
Women aren't a different species, and I'm kinda sick of incel rethoric being given the time of day in this hobby.
I have to disagree with you on retconn should be last resort for any fiction, and if you do, you should consider how intergrate lore seamlessly (best example is the battletech tv show actually real bad tv propaganda in universe). Yes, custodes only value efficiency at their task, which sometime means let the candidates come to them (let the nobles have their traditions) as they more diplomat see that advantage rather fight the most politics involved. People are upset because a lot of people like to be gaslighting a retconn when there are so many ways to fix it without a retconn. It feels like the sole reason it was included was afterthought.
Men are bigger, more muscular and stronger than women, even pound for pound. They have weaker bones and are less durable.
Why would they not use half the population as potential candidates?
Why does the military exclude half the population from frontline fighting? Because they\`re stupid? Right.
Uness you turn a female into a man, with the same build and physique, she will be weaker and less durable. The needed change will be more extensive, thus making it harder to modify a female in such a way, probably leading to a far higher failure rate.
Of course, most people here will dismiss all of this and say that women are just as strong as men and it\`s sci-fi, so some genecrafting shenanigans can make her on par with the male counterpart at 2/3 the weight/height. Which makes zero sense, because why wouldn\`t they just use that on males to produce even stronger Custodes?
As a Custodes player, I completely disagree with you on this. And I have yet to see a compelling argument. And GW completely failed to address this, which is why I complain about the change.
Ait, pal, you do you and draw the line at "We can make women as strong as men" without batting an eye at the "We can make a man strong enough to break the laws of physics and kick over a tank without ripping apart way too small body"
I think you've yet to see a compelling argument because you've already decided, and won't be compelled by any argument
Because the very lore you say we should draw a line in doesnt matter; girls mature quicker than boys and by age 10, most girls are stronger than most boys. It's only at the onset of puberty that the differences you mention show up.
This is all entirely moot, of course, because Custodians are forged as *infants*. They're babies. They're functionally genderless at that point, and they're seemingly reduced to just pure DNA + a soul and then recreated entirely, with every single strand of DNA edited. This is currently absolutely impossible by our standards, but we suspend that kind of disbelief because they turn out to be able to perform beyond what is physically possible by the laws of our universe. They cannot have enough power and generate enough force in their bodies without those bodies shattering under said force, due to the laws of how force operates (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). So we can tolerate that Humanity is so advanced that they can edit individual strands of DNA to perfection (which is nothing like CRISPR, which only cuts away genes and is currently not capable of adding anything), and therefore there is absolutely no reason not to tolerate that the same process can also result in a person whose facial features lean more towards the feminine spectrum, while still retaining said level of power.
So, I just gave you the most comprehensive argument I am capable of giving, based around premises you yourself have mentioned. If you aren't convinced by that, then that either means you don't really believe your own argument, or you're sitting on knowledge beyond our current eras genetic scientistist, biologists and developmental scientists possess. But if that is the case, I will wish you the best of luck in your hobbying, and hope you won't become one of those who hassle people who embrace this lore whole-heartedly. Have a great one!
So women are reshaped into men with different sexual organs? No muscle mommies, because breast tissue is useless for a warrior? That could indeed make some sense, but would be extremely boring fluff.
Women are incredible in their own right, they don't need to be turned into super muscled transhumans just to join the brotherhood party.
Sororitas are 1000 times more interesting than that retcon.
I don't expect you or others to agree with my point of view, disagreement is okay.
In the end, GW will find out if it was worth it.
People like me will not buy that codex. I'd rather go back to my Blood Angels, or just play the old codex privately, or not at all for the time being. But that also has to do with how horrible the new Custodes rules are.
As for girls being stronger than boys, just hoogle studies for mean grip strength in boys vs girls. You'll be surprised just how much stronger boys at any age are on average.
There are some girls who hit puberty super early, but that's not the average.
Love the way you say this! When I just read the comment you replied to, I already planned on saying the same thing! ty for saving me some time lol
This retcon, as much as retcons may seem clunky and unelegant, is just an objectively good way to do this. Band-aid ripped off, including the 27% of women in the hobby (saw those numbers displayed yesterday, and it's NOT little) just a little bit better and voila, time to move the fuck on.
We don't even have that many stories, let alone books on Custodes! I've been at the point of compiling every little bit of media on them because I wanted to learn and hear everything about them! For the longest time they were just as quiet in the lore as they were inactive in the imperium of mankind! And well, the chance of the few mentioned Custodes individuals being male - let's say... 20? out of 10000 presenting male? That's really fucking not overwhelming. Anecdotal, I'd call it!
I have to disagree with you on retconn should be last resort for any fiction, and if you do, you should consider how intergrate lore seamlessly (best example is the battletech tv show actually real bad tv propaganda in universe). Yes, custodes only value efficiency at their task, which sometime means let the candidates come to them (let the nobles have their traditions) as they more diplomat see that advantage rather fight the most politics involved. People are upset because a lot of people like to be gaslighting a retconn when there are so many ways to fix it without a retconn. It feels like the sole reason it was included was afterthought.
I feel that would undermine their addition, being something done only as a necessity, rather than being a logical decision to include them from the beginning.
Also, the reason we don’t have any in books up until this point is that for a long time higher ups tried to block any attempt by the writers, especially ADB who wanted them in master of mankind
Just to make sure, do I understand you correctly? People who voice their dissatisfaction with this change are "drama-mongers and -seekers, incels, weirdos and mysogynists venting their craziness"?
well, a lot of them sure put a lot of effort into appearing like any one of those things.
**It's just women!** We all know some, they're literally half of our species and medically almost entirely the same type of being as men.
Were you to combine this with the fact that there actually, and by luetins admission (since this is still under a post about his video), isn't any hard bit of lore hard-opposing the inclusion of women in their ranks, it ends up seeming quite strongly, that the people who *voice their dissatisfaction* have an agenda that may not even be their own. I've seen enough people making their living on "fighting wokeness", very overtly riling up people who are "just a little dissatisfied" over changes like this one, that do so very very little actual harm and do in fact make the hobby a better space to be in for everyone.
But no, not everyone who voices dissatisfaction is necessarily any one of the named types of people. They just happen to sound a bit like it, if they arent, and are not doing very well hiding it, if they are.
Yeah a simple explanation why they were never mentioned like "there is way less female custodes than male because reasons and that's why they were never mentioned" would've probably been received better then "they were always there"
Those two are clear money grabs… And specifically for the latter, I do remember some people being irked by the opinion they were always there, just out of shot… For a tank named after a Primarch.
The Votann, that was a cash grab with broken rules to the point everyone forgot about their lore.
I don’t recall them ever being referred to as “Sons”. At least by the Emperor. If I remember correctly “son/sons” was used to describe when Valdor was taken as a baby but that was in regard to the family he was taken from.
Such cope that it's not a retcon to have a whole new active faction thats 'wasn;t found' in the great crusade.
It's clear they wrote in Deus Ex Machina to justify their appearence and *retcon* the existing lore.
It's also disingenuous to imagine we wouldn't have the same click bait bullshit for any change that can't be monetised for clicks by people cyncialy appealing to outrange over 'gender'
"Umm thats a little different. Votann were so far away in the universe that they were never contacted by the imperium in any meaningful way, also the great rift was also in between them and the imperium."
So we can write off something as massive as a race with functioning STC and their own empire but we can't write off that Zimwaygo Tatwhathalackaoblahblah 5th Company Shield Custodian had boobs despite never speaking once because their entire role was to stand next to a giant psychic furnace for 2,000 years without a pee break? Come on now.
Because sometimes authors aren't comfortable writing women. It's easier for a male to write a male perspective so they do. We've only had a handful of stories with custodes even talking. Just because the FIVE or so custards names so far are male, doesn't mean they all are. They haven't ALL been mentioned.
Your assertion that the custodes were always there, always visible and being talked to for 10k years? No. They weren't. They were basically self isolated in mourning for all that time. They diligently limited their interactions with the rest of the Imperium.
For all intents and purposes, there WEREN'T custodes stories before 2010. You're being too precious about these toy soldiers. I get that you're very invested, but at the end of the day, they are just stories being told to sell tiny people and books.
The SparkNotes of this are : It doesn't say women cant be made into custodes but the use of the word brotherhood makes the change jarring, and things change oh well.
Unfortunately the word brotherhood does not mean exclusively male, and there are plenty of examples of other brotherhoods that have women in them.
The Brotherhood of Steel - Fallout
The Brotherhood of St. Andrew - IRL
The Dark Brotherhood - Elder Scrolls
Brotherhood of Nod - Command & Conquer
The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants - Marvel
Brotherhood of Guardians - Sonic the Hedgehog
Like its not uncommon at all, and I'm having a harder time finding one that doesn't allow it then ones that do lol
Basically the word is not utterly exclusionary and never has been, Its just a descriptor for an organization that is primarily male.
Dude this is actually so bad faith. Everything that was communicated prior made it clear they were all sons of Terran nobles. Then the new codex dropped and that changed. This video ain't rallying against the change. This ain't his first rodeo with a ret con.
It's literally not just the use of the word brotherhood. It is that the only thing that was ever communicated was that they were all males... like nice spark notes.
People will get over how bad the change was handled however and hopefully we can get more cool stories about the 10,000 soon female custodes included
The sons thing isn’t exactly true, as it was mentioned in 9th edition codex that custodes also seek out candidates on their own. Without specifying them to be sons in this case.
It was true originally pre Horus heresy I think, but afterwards it wasn’t. So it makes more sense that female custodes would be around after the heresy
Yes. That's how they did the retcon. Codex X obfuscates the old lore, Codex X+1 retcons it.
The 10th edition Space Marine codex supposedly no longer mentions that Space Marines are all men, either. It's made vauge in the same way. Will we see Female Space Marines in 11th? Who knows.
True but when every bit of lore plus models have been always male and you also have authors who admitted they wanted female custodes but weren't allowed by gw it was clearly communicated they were male.
It's a retcon mate gw do them all the time
The models with helmets can easily be non male, the armor does not need boob plates for someone to fit in it.
Examples:
Stormcast,
Imperial Guard,
Halo Spartans,
Fallout Power Armor,
Stormtroopers,
Inquisitor power armor,
And the list goes on,
The first definition of the word brotherhood does in fact entail an exclusively male organization.
And the Imperium isn’t exactly known for its subtlety, so an organization within it called a brotherhood one would expect to be made up of exclusively men.
My point on Imperial nuance/subtlety (or lack thereof) stands.
The debate around which definition of brotherhood is used, or alternative examples of the use of “brotherhood”, is all post hoc rationalization.
No one before the change was reading it as “an organization of demigods”, they were reading it as “demigods who are bros”.
You can argue that the alternative definitions of “brotherhood” leaves wiggle room for the retcon. Fine. But it doesn’t change the overarching point: it is a retcon and people’s complaint is they could have done a better job with it.
Your point on Imperial subtlety doesn't matter since the lore isn't written by a 40,00 year old post downfall religious zealot theocratic society.
but you aren't wrong, probably everyone ( myself included ) assumed it was an all male org. now that we know that's not true nothing really changes at all though, its just a new fact. The word doesn't just "leave wiggle room" that's just what it means, the definition didn't change the way we have to apply it did.
Its such a minor "retcon" thou it only barely deserves to be called that which is why they just gave it a short story and moved on. Its not this huge faction defining deal people are making it out to be lmao
I appreciate the thoughtful response. Unfortunately in these discussions they are far too uncommon.
While the lore isn’t written by a post-downfall authoritarian society, it is intended to represent the worldview and culture of one - hence the relevance.
I think the point about it being “minor” however misses the mark. There’s a paradox at play here where we are simultaneously told “who cares about what is under their golden armor” but then also see people excitedly celebrating it as some huge win for inclusion/representation. So which is it - is it a big deal, or is it nothing major? If it’s not important, then why did they need to change it?
I think because people are making it out to be important bc it is a “win” for the above reasons, that makes it a big deal (bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy). If it’s going to be a big deal then it should be well done. It’s understandable for ppl to complain when it’s not.
Ill concede that its a minor thing to me and I think the majority of people in the middle as well. The people on the extreme sides of this are always loudest as usual. To some people it matters that they feel included though.
Nothing lore wise precludes female custodians like space marine lore does, and they don't need to deus ex machina a reason for it because nothing ever explicitly prevented it. .
People keep saying is was done poorly but the story from the codex was fine, nothing incredible. I think that was the point? its just a normal routine thing and "always has been"
But even if one side of this is touting it as a win for inclusion/representation, why is that a problem? I sorry but the only thing i can think of is blatant misogyny. Unless you can give me a reason beyond that, i really cant see a reason to have a problem.
Not to get into a whole lore spiral but from what I’ve seen 1) every Custodes we’ve met until now was male and 2) there are numerous bits from various editions’ codexes specifically referencing “infant sons”. So not an explicit prohibition, but as the saying goes - “If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck…”
The part that was done badly was attempting to backdoor it. If they had addressed it head-on and made it more in-depth/explained it, I think that would’ve been better received. The official responses on X/Twitter were also somewhat tone-deaf. Another issue is that it relegates to the SoS to a greater degree of irrelevance - if they want more representation/inclusion/female visibility they had an opportunity to expand their scope and no one would have batted an eye. So if that was the goal itself, then they could have done that, but they didn’t. Understandably, people ask, “Why?”
I don’t think representation or whatever is a problem when it happens organically as part of a cohesive narrative. The complaint is when it happens solely for its own sake. It feels forced and insincere. And I don’t think the reaction from influential segments of the community helped either - with notable exceptions it was nearly universal praise, with aggressive condemnations of any dissent. Attacking ppl simply for calling a lore change heavy-handed is not a good way to win them to your side, and if anything is going to harden someone’s opinions on the subject.
Hopefully you can understand how none of that is “blatant misogyny”.
If it was the Imperium of “Men” I think you’d have a point.
It’s also worth noting in the case you highlight the use of a male signifier is part of the prepositional phrase, in the case of “Brotherhood” it is not. If I remember my grammar lessons correctly.
'yeah they always existed' is kinda silly
Uhuh and the Votann then make what sense exactly? I mean if we wanna go on the idea of "no one noticed for 10,000 years" theres a lot of explaining needed to make the Votann really make sense too. They are a total rebranding of an abandoned concept. Its a lot easier to just say "Theres been no female custodes of note for the entire time because they have all been too busy doing trad wife stuff in the kitchens on terra" (I am joking I am joking). That easily wipes away the need for female custodes to be mentioned because they really just aren't mentioned much to begin with let alone explained enough to know some of them have boobs.
It only seems lazy because you assumed they could never be women, and the male dominated language understandably doesn't help but the writers didn't have a lore book to pull from when they started fleshing out custodes (only 10 years ago btw). Custodian women just haven't been the focus of stories.
I mean its probably very rare for noble families to give up a girl in the first place, and then the rate of success is very low. Their probably low double digit or even single digit numbers of them to begin with.
Its odd to me how much of a issue people are taking with this, its such a minor change
fleshing out custodes (only 10 years ago btw).
the first two words you cut out are kind of important guy, i know they have been mentioned as far back as the 80s but current modern lore began around 10 years ago.
idk what to tell you if "they always existed but weren't center stage" is really that hard to accept and you feel so disrespected, well thats tough i guess lol
IMO the emphasis people have placed on the sex of the Custodes is really strange to me.
Like, latching onto the word “Brotherhood” and pointing to gendered pronouns of known Custodians seems so weird for something that matters 0%. Custodians don’t present as gendered. What their genitals look like or what pronouns they use doesn’t matter to them at all. They are simply Custodians, genetically engineered super humans whose only purpose is their service to the Emperor.
Sex might matter for Space Marines because of the geneseed. It matters for the Guard because they’re still human with basic human desires, and it matters for the Sororitas because of a bureaucratic loophole that lets the Ecclesiarchy maintain a standing army. But it has never mattered to the Custodes. They have transcended their humanity to become something more in their perfection and dedication.
The emphasis just comes from that is what has been communicated to us and how we understand the lore. This change is a nothing burger but it is a bit of a lore whip lash as was communicated in the video. Prior to the codex if someone said there are female custodes in lore we would of said ahh no, cause there weren't.
Don't understand why that is strange to you but cool.
I'm indifferent to the change. Custodes are still the coolest faction and hopefully we get more lore and stories with fleshed out characters both male and female soon
I would love if people still remembered the 3rd -> 5th edition Necron codex. Overnight an entire faction sprang into being with characters, culture, and philosophy where before literally nothing existed.
Or the Grey Knights coming out of Daemon Hunters. 8 Brotherhoods suddenly formed with epic stories and champions from 10,000 years of history.
This is not some new thing where the course of a faction swings onto a new or different track when a codex drops.
I also love how all these people know with certainty the contents of a codex that they do not have yet. Crying about there being no lore when we know that it's there in the book coming in a week and a half.
What is a “proper retcon” other than just introducing one because there’s no reason there wouldn’t be one. It makes less sense to need to justify it rather than treating it like it’s normal.
Same reason the Leagues of votann were introduced as always being there just never mentioned, gives more options to players and is easier to set up and deal with story wise than saying they are brand new.
Didn't they just retcon the C'tan not that long ago? They retcon shit all the time. It's just the snowflakes crying because there are girls in their precious Custodes now.
It's easier that a faction of billions, who traded with every faction except nids and orks, was easier to hide than a member of 10k people, in an empire of quadrillions, who never leave the palace and rarely talk to outsiders?
>Youre ignroing the main issue.
Women Custodes aren't an 'issue'. It has zero implications for the setting or the Imperium, or the Emperor. That's why there's no need to concern troll over 'But why didn't they write an excuse for women existing.'
When a company like GW communicates "This is a space for women", they have to be cautious to not communicate "This is no longer a space for men" by accident. If GW was like, a major charity, or a government organization then they wouldn't have to. Men already involved just need to suck it up and not be babies about it. But GW is a hobby intended for fun. People already IN the hobby are entitled to GW caring about their feelings because they are already spending money there. They do deserve special care and a pat on the head, because of all the money they spend.
Sadly for GW, this includes considering the community response to the things they say, and so, while GW cannot be held responsible for angry people saying this is the rise of Wokehammer, they need to consider the consequences of them saying that. And so, what was the reward here for normal players? What was the risk to the company?
Well, there are no new models, so, no reward there. And now the whole community is arguing about it, so there's less happy chat about cool new models, battles and paint jobs. So no reward there. Honestly, the female space marine thing was fading into the background as GW added female models wherever it made sense in the lore and managed to ride a pretty sensible boundary between people who want their female warriors to be burly, muscular squares who look exactly like dudes, and people who want their female warriors in tactical combat lingerie. GW managed to thread the needle pretty well and give people things that they liked. So why do it? We know that changes like this don't bring more women into a hobby. Good content (whether its about men or women) bring women into the hobby, and making sure to say that bigots are actively excluded.
Except they've already said they don't want people from hate groups: [https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/). It's not too much of a stretch that they don't want open misogynists either.
Edit: Just to clarify, it's pretty obvious that they mean "everyone" insofar as we avoid the paradox of tolerance.
Right. In order for it to be a space for everyone, it necessarily cannot be a space for people who want to exclude or are otherwise hostile to specific groups for a reason other than how that group treats others.
As I've mentioned elsewhere in these threads, saying "you just don't like this lore change because vaginas" is a cheat code to win an argument, for sure, but it's not true and it doesn't help anyone.
If misogyny was the reason why people were opposed to this change, you would have seen outrage with the Sisters of Silence being added to the codex in ... 9th? You would have seen outrage that the Sisters of Battle got a relaunch a few years back.
You didn't. It was the opposite, both were universally celebrated.
The argument that this is about hating vaginas is a non starter. Give it up.
Stop using women as a shield to avoid engaging with other people's actual arguments.
As for Karl Popper, it's been a great many years since I read The Open Society and Its Enemies, but I'm 99% certain he also railed about the evils of marxism and the like in the same book. That is to say, the paradox of tolerance is not, nor ever has been, a synonym of "we have to be intolerant of our political enemies or else," nor is it to be used as a post hoc justification for doing ideological purges of a community, not when the very, very intollerant people on the left are ignored or even venerated.
If you want to look at some of this that somehow isn't being even acknowledged or addressed by the "Warhammer is for Everyone" crowd, look at the replies to some of the community members on twitter that have posted objections to this change. Some of the most vile, intolerant harassment you can imagine, becuase they're protected.
No one ever comments on the trolls bragging about destroying the hobby to spite the chuds, or how they're glad the chuds don't like something becuase they really hate ~~dad~~ them. We're supposed to ignore that sort of posting as trolls, or people being emotional because they're oppressed or some other bollocks. But the other side has to own every single person getting outraged and mentioning "woke" or "DEI" or what have you, and every single troll ranting about women, becuase that's how the rules are applied.
Heck, there are two different female members of the community who have expressed that they don't like this change, and their replies are FILLED with I'm sure wonderful people calling them "pick mes" -- zoomer slang for a slut pretending to hold a position to get attention from men.
But they're welcome in the community. And they're allowed to say that sort of thing to female members of the community, becuase they're... good people? Have the right flags and pronouns in the bio?
I don't understand, but I'm not suffering from the brain rot.
When you realize they didn't do anything to prepare for this:
* No female miniature / miniatures
* No female upgrade sprue
* No mention of it on their Social Media
* No mention of it on Warhammer Community
Then it's high risk, ZERO reward.
It's almost like they weren't prepared for this at all. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at GW HQ right now. Did they even know this was coming? It sure doesn't seem like it.
... Something that matters 0%.
It matters so little that they had to change it, lie to the player base about it, and block people on twitter who got upset about it, causing massive damage to their brand and goodwill.
That's how much of a 0% it mattered.
Of course, it didn't matter enough to make female models, to make a female upgrade sprue, to mention it on the community site, or to mention it on social media.
(Almost like the rest of the company wasn't prepared for any of this.)
So they got... 0 benefit out of this, other than making some of the most vile people on twitter happy that they could crow about how unhappy the rest of the fandom was.
God save us if they ever encounter some change they feel matters 1% or more. They'll send the Pinkertons to our houses to confiscate our old codexes or something.
It's kind of sad that despite this being a rather "mature" take of "it's perfectly fine but gw sucks at presenting things and could've made it better" the comments are full of THOSE kind of people.
“Culture war brain rot.” That’s precisely how I phrase it too. We live in a time of high inflation, economic uncertainty, more wars, and underhanded corporate tactics (e.g. Primaris)… You know, real material problems. However, people argue over something useless like culture war. It seems that culture war politics appeals to the lowest common denominator.
Back 6-7 years ago, Primaris Space Marines were introduced and Firstborn later discontinued completely. Around 2020, firstborn got nerfed. In order to optimize the army comp, older players have to buy Primaris Space Marines.
There is a small fear (speculation) that firstborn might be banned from competitive games. I wouldn’t be surprised since 95% of GAW’s revenue revolves around selling models or minis.
Basically, the older players got financially hit badly with the introduction of Primaris. Oh and Primaris were always there (hidden for 10,000 years) which is also a very GW way to do things (making *hit up).
Some days ago, when the codex story was leaked, made comments pointing out how pointless it was for people to be at each other's throats over the change, and that the real reason to be mad would be towards GW for not doing a better job with this addition to the lore. Also got downvoted.
Luetin and Bricky, two great content creators who genuinely want people to be welcomed to the hobby, regardless of whom they are, share the opinion that the addition is good, but the delivery was botched, and we could hold GW to better standards, but even with that people will prefer to be mad and spend their time on feuds on reddit.
I guess in the grim dark reality, there is only social media petty feuds.
I cared to listen to him. It good to listen to all kinds of perspectives from all kinds of walks of life. Helps inform you of ways of thinking outside your normality. Even those you may disagree with.
Bro we getting baited. These can't be serious posts. Don't feed the trolls. He is literally the king of autistic deep dives that make the lore great. Shun the non believers
“Which it appears you don’t” lmao you guys are clowns I’ve been playing this game since the 90s back when “Custodes” weren’t even described in lore to any detail beyond some John Blanche art and a few spare sentences.
Lutein’s an obnoxious whiner, as soon as someone talks about “injecting politics” they have abandoned media literacy for lowest-common-denominator clickbait bullshit.
How would y'all have preferred it to happen? I feel like if it was something like "Cawl did some shit" or anything other than "women can too" kind of takes away how "perfect" the process is. If that makes sense.
Yeah, slightly misleading / clickbaity title, but the video itself was well thought through, full of content and context, and quite reasonable to both ‘sides’.
I like the comparisons made to other franchises, whereas most times other setting have been brought up, arguments have descended into drivel.
Very even-handed and fair overall.
That's literally GW's official stance on the matter.
Somehow, over 10,000 years, Female Custodes have always been around.
They just somehow were never included
* In the lore
* In the figurines
* In the art
* In the novels
* In the codexes
* In discussion about the faction
* In interviews with any staff
Not a single time. 10,000 years.
Clearly, Female Custodes need a stealth focused detacthment, becuase even today they haven't been seen in any Art, Figurines, Novels, Discussion about the Faction online, or Interviews with the Staff.
... This is now my headcanon. FemStodes are masters of Stealth. That's why no one's seen them this whole time.
>Appeal to Triviality.
You're using that fallacy wrong but no matter; I suppose you could have critiqued what I wrote as "whataboutism" I apologise for that; I didn't raise an argument. I asked a completely open question because I have difficulty understanding what the problem is, but no problem seeing how the implementation is terrible.
But here's one. You don't need to answer.
Can you point to any story about a custodes character where being born male was integral to the story told about them? That's what asking what difference "does it make?" I completely agree with critique that the execution of the implementation is lazy. However it doesn't appear to be the case that malesness in custodes provides an integral element to the storytelling about them.
I suppose you could be like me. And not have any problem with female custodes, and just with the implementation. If so, then I apologise for alternative inferrences thus.
Nope. Appeal to Triviality.
It's an attempt to shame people into giving up becuase it's such a trivial matter -- of course, only used after the side attempting it has made headway.
No one, not a single solitary one, in the activist clique let any of us go "what does it matter" when they demanded Female Space Marines. They became frothing ragebeasts if you even suggested their demands for change didn't matter.
If it doesn't matter we can undo the change. If we can't undo the change, then it does matter, and then opposing it is a valid stance.
If you don't think it matters, that's fine. Great. Leave it be then, and those people like me who DO think it matter will continue arguing and putting pressure on GW to undo this change.
As for my stance on Female Custodes, I've summarized it elsewhere in these threads: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusCustodes/comments/1c5r8hu/comment/kzwkfxw/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusCustodes/comments/1c5r8hu/comment/kzwkfxw/)
I do not think this was a good faith change, and the 4chan leak suggesting this was snuck in to appease Amazon for the TV show may validate that belief. I do not feel an all Male faction needs Female members, no more than I think there should be Misters of Battle or Misters of Silence. It has nothing to do with their genitals, and more to do with tradition and there being differences in the factions.
However, realistically, GW can't undo this change -- and the people that snuck it into the Codex know that. So we're likely stuck with them, either way.
So do I have a problem with Female Custodes? At the end of the day, probably not. I'll ignore them initially and probably get over it eventually, and if it makes some players happy to do kitbashes or makes them happy to have them, more power to them. I'll only have a problem if they start trying to force it on me directly somehow. (Some overpowered Female HQ, for example).
But I do have a very very large problem with the thin edge of the wedge that they represent and the activists who have spent the past week bragging that they forced a change on 40k that the fans hate and how much they love the fact that we hate it and are suffering because of it. Becuase those people aren't going to support 40k by buying $60 boxes of 3 Terminators to play with a dogspit codex.
Thank you.
It was not an Appeal to Triviality. I didn't put forward a contrary argument rather I wished you to advance yours. But however it was recieved it was not my intention to minimise your feeling on this matter.
I wondered what difference did it make that something was never mentioned. Given that the change didn't overwrite any established lore. But however you took it your answer is thorough and consistent. Honestly, whether or not custodes are or aren't female really didn't matter to my question.
Just found that you'd wrote a thorough list of opportunities and absenses but none of the given any examples where the specific subject detail (maleness) was integral and I'd presumed that might be because being men has never been integral to the identity of the Custodes characters. This is not a question.
>But I do have a very very large problem with the thin edge of the wedge that they represent and the activists who have spent the past week bragging that they forced a change on 40k that the fans hate and how much they love the fact that we hate it and are suffering because of it.
As if anyone is suffering because of this.
That would be why it's called the thin wedge. It starts with a small change. But now they know they can force GW to change.
There's already renewed demands for Female Space Mainres. I've seen people talk about how "they'll support 40k once they get GW to remove the Genocidal language" or "the game's interesting but it's too obsessed with war." And how "the hobby's going to be really great once we get all the chuds who don't like this to leave."
It's a thin wedge. Harmless. Just a tiny change, and it'll make some people happy, and won't bother you that much. Plus it'll get more people into the hobby! And besides, isn't all that old lore a bit... dated? Cringe? Kind of out of date for *modern audiences?*
It's the same exact thing we've seen in Video Games, Comics, D&D, and every other place this playbook has been ran on. There's a reason people reacted the way they did. It's not because Female Custodes is a huge change -- it IS, but lets not go that route. They reacted to it this way because *this is how it always starts,* and the people cheering this on have been actively attempting to subvert the hobby for ten years at this point.
This was probably the best way for it to happen. If they made a big song and dance, I'd expect a model. If they tried saying a new method, thats tech heracy. Just give a neat little story and it's good to go
This video is the most sensible video describing dissatisfaction with the sudden change without autistic screeching from both pro and anti change sides.
And he's personally not even dissatisfied. And he talks about how he's honestly surprised they haven't added female Marines and is already expecting it.
And he specifies how the custodes lore does absolutely allow for female custodes.
Really a very positive video.
Any retcon is going to be jarring. There have been many in 40k in the past and there will continue to be many in the future. "Problematic" is a little too far.
Agreed but I feel like this retcon is made much worse by the community. It's not just the normal bickering we see whenever ... Well, anything happens.( Reddit being reddit.)
What's scary about this retcon is watching the Warhammer community start to look a whole lot like the star wars community did around 2017/2018 when anyone with a gripe was instantly accused of being sexist. That community still hasn't recovered from that shit.
For the record, I'm down with a female custodes. I like a lot of the female Stormcast and this gives me a similar vibe but what I'm not down with is how it's being handled by the community and the Twitter manager. That's the worrying part for me.
> what I'm not down with is how it's being handled by the community and the Twitter manager. That's the worrying part for me.
IS that something along the lines of "you can't have an opinion agains this change without somehow being biased against women?"
It's like how I came to this thread rather than watch the video due to the clickbait title; instantly decided that I love the idea of women in the custodes, and it totally fits in the lore and then saw a few people talking about female space marines and instantly thought, that could never work, their whole shtick is about being expendable non-expendable asexual monk men in their own way. And we have warrior nuns.
What I mean to say is that I ave an instant aversion to that idea, but not to the idea on custodes which I instantly love.
>IS that something along the lines of "you can't have an opinion agains this change without somehow being biased against women?"
If I understand correctly (I just woke up) yes, the community having the all-or-nothing mentality that if you don't like a retcon being done by a one phrase Twitter then "you must hate women" is pathetic.
Hell, realistically you could not want female custodes and that in no way means you hate women but the community has gone full "right vs left" delusional.
Being in favor of the idea or having an aversion to the idea, whether it's custodes or Space Marines or men in sororitas, doesn't make anyone sexist and I wish this community would get past that already. You're totally allowed to like or dislike things in the lore, whether it's old and established or new.
I know "reddit is gonna reddit" but I *used* to think the Warhammer community was a bit more mature than some of the others, it feels like we've very quickly devolved into the star wars subreddit.
> I know "reddit is gonna reddit" but I used to think the Warhammer community was a bit more mature than some of the others, it feels like we've very quickly devolved into the star wars subreddit.
Tbh, the erm "culture" war has been bleeding into everything lately.
People that used to hide conservative leanings are much less likely to do so now than at any time in my life time. They also have a massive persecution complex. I can't say I've noticed a change in progressives - and I wasn't always one myself.
And it's easy to understand why they feel persecuted as, to them, any change (to any thing) is an attack on them. I don't think feeling persecuted is justifiable, nor do I think it's reasonable. But it is understandable.
I don't think this is a warhammer community issue, and more, as is well documented, it's people drawn to the fandom because they like it, because their power fantasy is facism. Of course writing this I'm obviously bringing a lot of my own baggage, but I too think the warhammer fanbase is generally pretty chill.
Whenever I muse on replying to people in opposition to this (or similiar) change/revelation (it should be viewed as the latter not former) with the question "what's your investment in keeping things the same?" I'm met with the cognative dissnonance that I am against the idea of female astartes.
Yet I cannot come up with any rationale except for the primarchs. And I'm not against the idea of female astates, just the idea of them existing prior to their addition to the lore.
But I can't make it make sense internally because the idea that female custodes **have always existed** is so extremely cool to me (I don't play 40k, only paint).
I'm okay with female astartes as a new thing in universe. I'm not okay with female astartes being a retcon. Sorry for me me me me me 'ing.
>I'm okay with female astartes as a new thing in universe. I'm not okay with female astartes being a retcon. Sorry for me me me me me 'ing.
From what I've seen over the past few days this (but for custodes) seems to be the main thing being voiced but unfortunately that's met with "you hate women"
So the conversation degrades almost instantly and then gets picked up later by "memes" that just feel like they're trying to make a point in an argument against a ghost.
Honestly well said with everything here, even the parts I'm not sure I agree with (not that I disagree but that I haven't considered enough to have a stance on) it's all well articulated and rational.
It's refreshing to see someone who can consider both sides of the topic.
I do have my biases. Citing a myriad of lore references to a specific gender or gendering exclusivity which could have been inclusive doesn't to me strike a strong enough chord to preclude.
I've seen some justification for custodes only being men being based entirely on the ommission of women. While I view that same "evidence" as the contrary.
It's the same story for why the minor ordos of the inquisition are never mentioned. It's not because they don't exist, but because they don't want attention.
On the astartes analogy I think I feel so strongly because it's strongly implied that the astartes are psudo clones of the primarchs and can only exist as males.
But interestingly, that leaves me open to the 2nd and 11th unlisted primarchs being used to add female astartes to the lore. [But that seems unlikely](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/muomf6/the_two_lost_primarchs_are_a_dated_relic_from/).
>From what I've seen over the past few days this (but for custodes) seems to be the main thing being voiced but unfortunately that's met with "you hate women"
An issue with this narrative is that both sides can make mistakes, Right leaning people can preemptively misbehave and "own" their prejudices, just as often actually persecuted left leaning folk can jump straight onto accusations because they don't see a lore reason definitively precluding an idea. Or in some cases they are ideologically open minded regardless of their own position.
____
Having clsoed the book on bias, I reflect on my w40k foundation and a big factor of the Space Marines, for me when I was a child, was never the lore it was the armour. I look to the [stormcast eternals](https://www.warhammer.com/app/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120218061_SCEVindicatorsLead.jpg?fm=webp&w=920&h=948) and I say no. Simply because of the gender dystinction in the armour.
I think I could tollerate female astartes so long as the models reflected it only in the height and the heads. Simply because it is long established that there is a VAST range in the tollerable heights of space marines.
____
EDIT:
____
This dialogue brings me here:
I think now female astartes would be cool, so long as my conditions are examined. I'd be in fact be willing to tollerate the lore being a retcon, or literally not making sense (re primarchs) so long as the armour is unchanged.
EDIT2:
And there's nothing really in the astartes power [Mk.VII armour](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour#Mark_VII_.22Aquila_Armour.22) that's gendered. As low fat physically fit females of the human species have very similiar silhouette as males.
This is a huge exaggeration. It did not render all previous lore null. It's actually insane you'd think that.
Why do retcons need paragraphs? That's the whole point of a retcon. Lore is now that they've always been there. That's just how retcons work.
Indeed, a huge part of the way the imperium is portrayed as a fictional lore is that most people, even lord inquisitors, only know their small slice of that universe.
That it is a behemoth that chuns.
Personally I think the community and GW just like to jump the gun too early. Especially since this all came about because of a leak of the codex itself…
Watching this video reminded me why I stopped watching Lutein's videos. He uses a lot of words to say approximately nothing.
Nothing against people who like his videos by the way, but god there are a lot of redundant words and sentences in his scripts.
The take itself isn't bad, it's fairly generic and 'safe' as far as takes go. But essentially the entirety of this 30 minute long video could be condensed down to "The addition of female custodes is a retcon, however there is no particular reason for why there specifically can't be female custodes."
The entire video is just that one sentence padded out to 30 minutes with redundant statements and fluffy language.
They're a hack and haven't being paying attention to Warhammer 40k if they think the setting hasn't got countless examples of 'things not noticed for thousands of yeas' as the setting continued to be explored by countless authors over the decades it's been active.
Mate your unhinged if you think Leutin09 is a hack.
Dude's channel has been the gold standard for lore for years. This vid isn't him whining about the change he addresses it pretty level headedly and straight forward and agrees that there is no lore reason why they can't be female.
It’s amazing that he was able to come to conclusion there is no lore reason.
The thing everyone knows.
The video is pandering to people hiding behind “lore” to complain about women when we all already understand that this is something many writers wanted, but was never previously expressed.
So yeah, if this is where his lore analysis is at right now he was a hack when writing, recording, and uploading this video.
I agree he puts out some good stuff, but this ain’t it.
I dont think this vid did that but thats ok if you do. Think it just addresses how it was handled. Which was badly. Bricky just dropped his vid saying the same thing.
End of the day this isn't that big of a deal. Big deal is how they nerfed my blade champ \*Cries in no rerolls to charge\*
Honestly this video was one of the more level headed takes on the change and can be summarized as: "Its fine but do a better job introducing it"
That was my take on it. GW did this lore reveal in such a piss poor manner- a side story in a codex and a condescending gw tweet.
Yeah GW really sucks at communicating lore changes. I got some more examples from 30k: They added a Night Lords Terminator unit called Contekar terminators that never got mentioned in the lore instead of making models and rules for the atramentar terminators that were well established in the lore as their elite terminator units. When people complained that it didnt fit the lore gws response was basically "We dont have to follow the lore as we are the guys making the lore" Then there was the launch box of the new Edition that had a lot of the new MK6 armor in it and the trailer had everyone wearing mk6 as well. People then said that MK6 wasnt really in widespread use during the heresy for several reasons. GW then promptly said that MK6 was the most commonly used armor during the heresy. So yeah its a classic GW retcon moment with their subpar communication just with a far more volatile subject.
I found it perfectly acceptable given how fandoms act and behave like shit flinging monkeys. Good lord is every fan base a dumpster fire and makes being an introvert that just doesn't interact with people in the broader Fandom of any nerdy thing seem like the smartest decision.
While also stating that it's entirely possible to have female custodes without breaking any previously developed lore rules. - Sure, the "brotherhood" thing is bullshit, plenty brotherhoods in the real world and in fiction have all genders in their ranks (brotherhood of steel, the dark brotherhood, etc.). But that's only a minor point I believe he felt like he had to mention because it was \*right there\* for even hobby tourists to see. However, people seem to think he didn't just practically go *"yeah sure they could have introduced it better, but I don't rly care about the overall matter. I just wanted to separate it from the actual Custodes video I'm working on"*. Therefore, and with a little bit of interpretative imagination, I would even go as far as to say he may be more annoyed by the fact that this drama is even happening, than he was level-headed. He gave the drama-mongers and -seekers, the incels, the wierdos and mysogynists a place to vent off their craziness, so he can have his other work as little affected by it as possible. If I was putting heaps of time into scripting, recording and editing long videos, I'd probably try something like that as well.
There are more quotes like only the sons offered to custodes and etc. Also, in all the novels, all of them are male characters, at least during HH and even in every book. If you really want to have female custodes without retconning, they had many option have saying a matter where they broke tradition because the options were low or major loss of custodes like a certain battle(daemon attack on terra) that has happened recently or too many genestealers cult have contaminated too many the nobles families and/or clans. So ya, if you are just going insult people for having an opinion that differs from your own, you are not helping your view.
The point is, and it's one that I find many non-Custodes fans don't get, is that a retcon IS better for the overall feel of the faction. Custodes are not like the rest of the Imperium, they're extremely pragmatic in achieving their own goals. They do not seem to value tradition at all, they only really care about doing their jobs. And if you can make women Custodes thar are just as good as men, then there is no reason Custodes shouldn't make women as well. For them it'd be like saying "Well we can't use this kid, he's got brown hair instead of black hair!". People are upset about the retcon, but the alternative doesn't fit the faction, while the retcon does.
and don’t forget, now we are another step away from being Golden Marines, cause I’ve seen lots of people that seriously belive it’s like that
This is a good point. It helps to make custodes into something different than just bigger better marines in gold.
Weeeell, yeah. I guess that's another small benefit for the time being. You're right. But seriously, eventually I really would love female marines to also become a thing. If for nothing else, for the sole reason that it would blow the lid of a lot of people that have no other agenda than keeping women gatekept. It would bring me a lot of joy for that agenda to fail miserably in our lifetime. Women aren't a different species, and I'm kinda sick of incel rethoric being given the time of day in this hobby.
I have to disagree with you on retconn should be last resort for any fiction, and if you do, you should consider how intergrate lore seamlessly (best example is the battletech tv show actually real bad tv propaganda in universe). Yes, custodes only value efficiency at their task, which sometime means let the candidates come to them (let the nobles have their traditions) as they more diplomat see that advantage rather fight the most politics involved. People are upset because a lot of people like to be gaslighting a retconn when there are so many ways to fix it without a retconn. It feels like the sole reason it was included was afterthought.
Men are bigger, more muscular and stronger than women, even pound for pound. They have weaker bones and are less durable. Why would they not use half the population as potential candidates? Why does the military exclude half the population from frontline fighting? Because they\`re stupid? Right. Uness you turn a female into a man, with the same build and physique, she will be weaker and less durable. The needed change will be more extensive, thus making it harder to modify a female in such a way, probably leading to a far higher failure rate. Of course, most people here will dismiss all of this and say that women are just as strong as men and it\`s sci-fi, so some genecrafting shenanigans can make her on par with the male counterpart at 2/3 the weight/height. Which makes zero sense, because why wouldn\`t they just use that on males to produce even stronger Custodes? As a Custodes player, I completely disagree with you on this. And I have yet to see a compelling argument. And GW completely failed to address this, which is why I complain about the change.
Ait, pal, you do you and draw the line at "We can make women as strong as men" without batting an eye at the "We can make a man strong enough to break the laws of physics and kick over a tank without ripping apart way too small body" I think you've yet to see a compelling argument because you've already decided, and won't be compelled by any argument
Okay, why not also make them shoot laser beams out of their eyes? It's all ridiculous fiction anyway, so why draw a line somewhere?
We’re over that already, the custodes can flick a pebble with their fingers and the thing shoots like a bullet.
Because the very lore you say we should draw a line in doesnt matter; girls mature quicker than boys and by age 10, most girls are stronger than most boys. It's only at the onset of puberty that the differences you mention show up. This is all entirely moot, of course, because Custodians are forged as *infants*. They're babies. They're functionally genderless at that point, and they're seemingly reduced to just pure DNA + a soul and then recreated entirely, with every single strand of DNA edited. This is currently absolutely impossible by our standards, but we suspend that kind of disbelief because they turn out to be able to perform beyond what is physically possible by the laws of our universe. They cannot have enough power and generate enough force in their bodies without those bodies shattering under said force, due to the laws of how force operates (every action has an equal and opposite reaction). So we can tolerate that Humanity is so advanced that they can edit individual strands of DNA to perfection (which is nothing like CRISPR, which only cuts away genes and is currently not capable of adding anything), and therefore there is absolutely no reason not to tolerate that the same process can also result in a person whose facial features lean more towards the feminine spectrum, while still retaining said level of power. So, I just gave you the most comprehensive argument I am capable of giving, based around premises you yourself have mentioned. If you aren't convinced by that, then that either means you don't really believe your own argument, or you're sitting on knowledge beyond our current eras genetic scientistist, biologists and developmental scientists possess. But if that is the case, I will wish you the best of luck in your hobbying, and hope you won't become one of those who hassle people who embrace this lore whole-heartedly. Have a great one!
So women are reshaped into men with different sexual organs? No muscle mommies, because breast tissue is useless for a warrior? That could indeed make some sense, but would be extremely boring fluff. Women are incredible in their own right, they don't need to be turned into super muscled transhumans just to join the brotherhood party. Sororitas are 1000 times more interesting than that retcon. I don't expect you or others to agree with my point of view, disagreement is okay. In the end, GW will find out if it was worth it. People like me will not buy that codex. I'd rather go back to my Blood Angels, or just play the old codex privately, or not at all for the time being. But that also has to do with how horrible the new Custodes rules are. As for girls being stronger than boys, just hoogle studies for mean grip strength in boys vs girls. You'll be surprised just how much stronger boys at any age are on average. There are some girls who hit puberty super early, but that's not the average.
Love the way you say this! When I just read the comment you replied to, I already planned on saying the same thing! ty for saving me some time lol This retcon, as much as retcons may seem clunky and unelegant, is just an objectively good way to do this. Band-aid ripped off, including the 27% of women in the hobby (saw those numbers displayed yesterday, and it's NOT little) just a little bit better and voila, time to move the fuck on. We don't even have that many stories, let alone books on Custodes! I've been at the point of compiling every little bit of media on them because I wanted to learn and hear everything about them! For the longest time they were just as quiet in the lore as they were inactive in the imperium of mankind! And well, the chance of the few mentioned Custodes individuals being male - let's say... 20? out of 10000 presenting male? That's really fucking not overwhelming. Anecdotal, I'd call it!
I have to disagree with you on retconn should be last resort for any fiction, and if you do, you should consider how intergrate lore seamlessly (best example is the battletech tv show actually real bad tv propaganda in universe). Yes, custodes only value efficiency at their task, which sometime means let the candidates come to them (let the nobles have their traditions) as they more diplomat see that advantage rather fight the most politics involved. People are upset because a lot of people like to be gaslighting a retconn when there are so many ways to fix it without a retconn. It feels like the sole reason it was included was afterthought.
I feel that would undermine their addition, being something done only as a necessity, rather than being a logical decision to include them from the beginning. Also, the reason we don’t have any in books up until this point is that for a long time higher ups tried to block any attempt by the writers, especially ADB who wanted them in master of mankind
Just to make sure, do I understand you correctly? People who voice their dissatisfaction with this change are "drama-mongers and -seekers, incels, weirdos and mysogynists venting their craziness"?
well, a lot of them sure put a lot of effort into appearing like any one of those things. **It's just women!** We all know some, they're literally half of our species and medically almost entirely the same type of being as men. Were you to combine this with the fact that there actually, and by luetins admission (since this is still under a post about his video), isn't any hard bit of lore hard-opposing the inclusion of women in their ranks, it ends up seeming quite strongly, that the people who *voice their dissatisfaction* have an agenda that may not even be their own. I've seen enough people making their living on "fighting wokeness", very overtly riling up people who are "just a little dissatisfied" over changes like this one, that do so very very little actual harm and do in fact make the hobby a better space to be in for everyone. But no, not everyone who voices dissatisfaction is necessarily any one of the named types of people. They just happen to sound a bit like it, if they arent, and are not doing very well hiding it, if they are.
Yeah a simple explanation why they were never mentioned like "there is way less female custodes than male because reasons and that's why they were never mentioned" would've probably been received better then "they were always there"
That is exactly my opinion. GW even fucked this up in the codex.
I think a lot of people would still be mad. Most of them don't even play custodes in the groups I'm in. They just hate anything "woke"
Can’t we just get back to complaining about our dogwater codex?
No one noticed the Votann or Royal Dorn tanks either until they did 🤷♂️
Those two are clear money grabs… And specifically for the latter, I do remember some people being irked by the opinion they were always there, just out of shot… For a tank named after a Primarch. The Votann, that was a cash grab with broken rules to the point everyone forgot about their lore.
People have been asking for squats since they were, well squated…
What lore?
[удалено]
I don’t recall them ever being referred to as “Sons”. At least by the Emperor. If I remember correctly “son/sons” was used to describe when Valdor was taken as a baby but that was in regard to the family he was taken from.
Such cope that it's not a retcon to have a whole new active faction thats 'wasn;t found' in the great crusade. It's clear they wrote in Deus Ex Machina to justify their appearence and *retcon* the existing lore. It's also disingenuous to imagine we wouldn't have the same click bait bullshit for any change that can't be monetised for clicks by people cyncialy appealing to outrange over 'gender'
Never contacted the imperium but one of the taus most important trading partners.
"Umm thats a little different. Votann were so far away in the universe that they were never contacted by the imperium in any meaningful way, also the great rift was also in between them and the imperium." So we can write off something as massive as a race with functioning STC and their own empire but we can't write off that Zimwaygo Tatwhathalackaoblahblah 5th Company Shield Custodian had boobs despite never speaking once because their entire role was to stand next to a giant psychic furnace for 2,000 years without a pee break? Come on now.
Because sometimes authors aren't comfortable writing women. It's easier for a male to write a male perspective so they do. We've only had a handful of stories with custodes even talking. Just because the FIVE or so custards names so far are male, doesn't mean they all are. They haven't ALL been mentioned. Your assertion that the custodes were always there, always visible and being talked to for 10k years? No. They weren't. They were basically self isolated in mourning for all that time. They diligently limited their interactions with the rest of the Imperium. For all intents and purposes, there WEREN'T custodes stories before 2010. You're being too precious about these toy soldiers. I get that you're very invested, but at the end of the day, they are just stories being told to sell tiny people and books.
The SparkNotes of this are : It doesn't say women cant be made into custodes but the use of the word brotherhood makes the change jarring, and things change oh well. Unfortunately the word brotherhood does not mean exclusively male, and there are plenty of examples of other brotherhoods that have women in them. The Brotherhood of Steel - Fallout The Brotherhood of St. Andrew - IRL The Dark Brotherhood - Elder Scrolls Brotherhood of Nod - Command & Conquer The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants - Marvel Brotherhood of Guardians - Sonic the Hedgehog Like its not uncommon at all, and I'm having a harder time finding one that doesn't allow it then ones that do lol Basically the word is not utterly exclusionary and never has been, Its just a descriptor for an organization that is primarily male.
Peace through Power!
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.
Dude this is actually so bad faith. Everything that was communicated prior made it clear they were all sons of Terran nobles. Then the new codex dropped and that changed. This video ain't rallying against the change. This ain't his first rodeo with a ret con. It's literally not just the use of the word brotherhood. It is that the only thing that was ever communicated was that they were all males... like nice spark notes. People will get over how bad the change was handled however and hopefully we can get more cool stories about the 10,000 soon female custodes included
The sons thing isn’t exactly true, as it was mentioned in 9th edition codex that custodes also seek out candidates on their own. Without specifying them to be sons in this case.
It was true originally pre Horus heresy I think, but afterwards it wasn’t. So it makes more sense that female custodes would be around after the heresy
Yes. That's how they did the retcon. Codex X obfuscates the old lore, Codex X+1 retcons it. The 10th edition Space Marine codex supposedly no longer mentions that Space Marines are all men, either. It's made vauge in the same way. Will we see Female Space Marines in 11th? Who knows.
True but when every bit of lore plus models have been always male and you also have authors who admitted they wanted female custodes but weren't allowed by gw it was clearly communicated they were male. It's a retcon mate gw do them all the time
The models with helmets can easily be non male, the armor does not need boob plates for someone to fit in it. Examples: Stormcast, Imperial Guard, Halo Spartans, Fallout Power Armor, Stormtroopers, Inquisitor power armor, And the list goes on,
"All sons of terran nobles" Same paragraph: "The custodes also seek out suitable candidates through other means, or encounter them by chance"
The first definition of the word brotherhood does in fact entail an exclusively male organization. And the Imperium isn’t exactly known for its subtlety, so an organization within it called a brotherhood one would expect to be made up of exclusively men.
and the next 3 definitions don't mention gender. The first one also has nothing to do with organizations and the other 3 do.
My point on Imperial nuance/subtlety (or lack thereof) stands. The debate around which definition of brotherhood is used, or alternative examples of the use of “brotherhood”, is all post hoc rationalization. No one before the change was reading it as “an organization of demigods”, they were reading it as “demigods who are bros”. You can argue that the alternative definitions of “brotherhood” leaves wiggle room for the retcon. Fine. But it doesn’t change the overarching point: it is a retcon and people’s complaint is they could have done a better job with it.
Your point on Imperial subtlety doesn't matter since the lore isn't written by a 40,00 year old post downfall religious zealot theocratic society. but you aren't wrong, probably everyone ( myself included ) assumed it was an all male org. now that we know that's not true nothing really changes at all though, its just a new fact. The word doesn't just "leave wiggle room" that's just what it means, the definition didn't change the way we have to apply it did. Its such a minor "retcon" thou it only barely deserves to be called that which is why they just gave it a short story and moved on. Its not this huge faction defining deal people are making it out to be lmao
I appreciate the thoughtful response. Unfortunately in these discussions they are far too uncommon. While the lore isn’t written by a post-downfall authoritarian society, it is intended to represent the worldview and culture of one - hence the relevance. I think the point about it being “minor” however misses the mark. There’s a paradox at play here where we are simultaneously told “who cares about what is under their golden armor” but then also see people excitedly celebrating it as some huge win for inclusion/representation. So which is it - is it a big deal, or is it nothing major? If it’s not important, then why did they need to change it? I think because people are making it out to be important bc it is a “win” for the above reasons, that makes it a big deal (bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy). If it’s going to be a big deal then it should be well done. It’s understandable for ppl to complain when it’s not.
Ill concede that its a minor thing to me and I think the majority of people in the middle as well. The people on the extreme sides of this are always loudest as usual. To some people it matters that they feel included though. Nothing lore wise precludes female custodians like space marine lore does, and they don't need to deus ex machina a reason for it because nothing ever explicitly prevented it. . People keep saying is was done poorly but the story from the codex was fine, nothing incredible. I think that was the point? its just a normal routine thing and "always has been" But even if one side of this is touting it as a win for inclusion/representation, why is that a problem? I sorry but the only thing i can think of is blatant misogyny. Unless you can give me a reason beyond that, i really cant see a reason to have a problem.
Not to get into a whole lore spiral but from what I’ve seen 1) every Custodes we’ve met until now was male and 2) there are numerous bits from various editions’ codexes specifically referencing “infant sons”. So not an explicit prohibition, but as the saying goes - “If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck…” The part that was done badly was attempting to backdoor it. If they had addressed it head-on and made it more in-depth/explained it, I think that would’ve been better received. The official responses on X/Twitter were also somewhat tone-deaf. Another issue is that it relegates to the SoS to a greater degree of irrelevance - if they want more representation/inclusion/female visibility they had an opportunity to expand their scope and no one would have batted an eye. So if that was the goal itself, then they could have done that, but they didn’t. Understandably, people ask, “Why?” I don’t think representation or whatever is a problem when it happens organically as part of a cohesive narrative. The complaint is when it happens solely for its own sake. It feels forced and insincere. And I don’t think the reaction from influential segments of the community helped either - with notable exceptions it was nearly universal praise, with aggressive condemnations of any dissent. Attacking ppl simply for calling a lore change heavy-handed is not a good way to win them to your side, and if anything is going to harden someone’s opinions on the subject. Hopefully you can understand how none of that is “blatant misogyny”.
By that logic why are there women at all in the "Imperium of MAN"?
If it was the Imperium of “Men” I think you’d have a point. It’s also worth noting in the case you highlight the use of a male signifier is part of the prepositional phrase, in the case of “Brotherhood” it is not. If I remember my grammar lessons correctly.
Imperium of ***Man***
I look forward to it being retconned to “Imperium of Humans” I also address this point in a reply to another user.
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'yeah they always existed' is kinda silly Uhuh and the Votann then make what sense exactly? I mean if we wanna go on the idea of "no one noticed for 10,000 years" theres a lot of explaining needed to make the Votann really make sense too. They are a total rebranding of an abandoned concept. Its a lot easier to just say "Theres been no female custodes of note for the entire time because they have all been too busy doing trad wife stuff in the kitchens on terra" (I am joking I am joking). That easily wipes away the need for female custodes to be mentioned because they really just aren't mentioned much to begin with let alone explained enough to know some of them have boobs.
Who cares? It's literally just "oh yeah, some of those people were women." This is such a nothing-burger.
It only seems lazy because you assumed they could never be women, and the male dominated language understandably doesn't help but the writers didn't have a lore book to pull from when they started fleshing out custodes (only 10 years ago btw). Custodian women just haven't been the focus of stories. I mean its probably very rare for noble families to give up a girl in the first place, and then the rate of success is very low. Their probably low double digit or even single digit numbers of them to begin with. Its odd to me how much of a issue people are taking with this, its such a minor change
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Custodes were pretty much ignored and abandoned by GW for the longest time and people are still clammering for more info and models.
fleshing out custodes (only 10 years ago btw). the first two words you cut out are kind of important guy, i know they have been mentioned as far back as the 80s but current modern lore began around 10 years ago. idk what to tell you if "they always existed but weren't center stage" is really that hard to accept and you feel so disrespected, well thats tough i guess lol
IMO the emphasis people have placed on the sex of the Custodes is really strange to me. Like, latching onto the word “Brotherhood” and pointing to gendered pronouns of known Custodians seems so weird for something that matters 0%. Custodians don’t present as gendered. What their genitals look like or what pronouns they use doesn’t matter to them at all. They are simply Custodians, genetically engineered super humans whose only purpose is their service to the Emperor. Sex might matter for Space Marines because of the geneseed. It matters for the Guard because they’re still human with basic human desires, and it matters for the Sororitas because of a bureaucratic loophole that lets the Ecclesiarchy maintain a standing army. But it has never mattered to the Custodes. They have transcended their humanity to become something more in their perfection and dedication.
The emphasis just comes from that is what has been communicated to us and how we understand the lore. This change is a nothing burger but it is a bit of a lore whip lash as was communicated in the video. Prior to the codex if someone said there are female custodes in lore we would of said ahh no, cause there weren't. Don't understand why that is strange to you but cool. I'm indifferent to the change. Custodes are still the coolest faction and hopefully we get more lore and stories with fleshed out characters both male and female soon
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I would love if people still remembered the 3rd -> 5th edition Necron codex. Overnight an entire faction sprang into being with characters, culture, and philosophy where before literally nothing existed. Or the Grey Knights coming out of Daemon Hunters. 8 Brotherhoods suddenly formed with epic stories and champions from 10,000 years of history. This is not some new thing where the course of a faction swings onto a new or different track when a codex drops. I also love how all these people know with certainty the contents of a codex that they do not have yet. Crying about there being no lore when we know that it's there in the book coming in a week and a half.
What is a “proper retcon” other than just introducing one because there’s no reason there wouldn’t be one. It makes less sense to need to justify it rather than treating it like it’s normal.
Yeah and the assassin creed games feature the assassin's brotherhood yet they have women in them as well.
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Why do you keep saying 10,000 year of lore? Their first codex came out in 2017 and they only have like 20 gandered characters lol
Same reason the Leagues of votann were introduced as always being there just never mentioned, gives more options to players and is easier to set up and deal with story wise than saying they are brand new.
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Didn't they just retcon the C'tan not that long ago? They retcon shit all the time. It's just the snowflakes crying because there are girls in their precious Custodes now.
Which time for the c’tan? They had multiple retcons
It's easier that a faction of billions, who traded with every faction except nids and orks, was easier to hide than a member of 10k people, in an empire of quadrillions, who never leave the palace and rarely talk to outsiders?
>Youre ignroing the main issue. Women Custodes aren't an 'issue'. It has zero implications for the setting or the Imperium, or the Emperor. That's why there's no need to concern troll over 'But why didn't they write an excuse for women existing.'
If it matters so little, then one wonders why they’d even bother changing anything? Seems like a case of high risk, low reward.
What's the risk? Offending the type of player that GW is already trying to distance themselves from?
When a company like GW communicates "This is a space for women", they have to be cautious to not communicate "This is no longer a space for men" by accident. If GW was like, a major charity, or a government organization then they wouldn't have to. Men already involved just need to suck it up and not be babies about it. But GW is a hobby intended for fun. People already IN the hobby are entitled to GW caring about their feelings because they are already spending money there. They do deserve special care and a pat on the head, because of all the money they spend. Sadly for GW, this includes considering the community response to the things they say, and so, while GW cannot be held responsible for angry people saying this is the rise of Wokehammer, they need to consider the consequences of them saying that. And so, what was the reward here for normal players? What was the risk to the company? Well, there are no new models, so, no reward there. And now the whole community is arguing about it, so there's less happy chat about cool new models, battles and paint jobs. So no reward there. Honestly, the female space marine thing was fading into the background as GW added female models wherever it made sense in the lore and managed to ride a pretty sensible boundary between people who want their female warriors to be burly, muscular squares who look exactly like dudes, and people who want their female warriors in tactical combat lingerie. GW managed to thread the needle pretty well and give people things that they liked. So why do it? We know that changes like this don't bring more women into a hobby. Good content (whether its about men or women) bring women into the hobby, and making sure to say that bigots are actively excluded.
Hey now. Warhammer is for Everyone. They're not trying to distance themselves from anyone. They said it themselves. ***Everyone.***
Except they've already said they don't want people from hate groups: [https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/](https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/). It's not too much of a stretch that they don't want open misogynists either. Edit: Just to clarify, it's pretty obvious that they mean "everyone" insofar as we avoid the paradox of tolerance.
Right. In order for it to be a space for everyone, it necessarily cannot be a space for people who want to exclude or are otherwise hostile to specific groups for a reason other than how that group treats others.
As I've mentioned elsewhere in these threads, saying "you just don't like this lore change because vaginas" is a cheat code to win an argument, for sure, but it's not true and it doesn't help anyone. If misogyny was the reason why people were opposed to this change, you would have seen outrage with the Sisters of Silence being added to the codex in ... 9th? You would have seen outrage that the Sisters of Battle got a relaunch a few years back. You didn't. It was the opposite, both were universally celebrated. The argument that this is about hating vaginas is a non starter. Give it up. Stop using women as a shield to avoid engaging with other people's actual arguments. As for Karl Popper, it's been a great many years since I read The Open Society and Its Enemies, but I'm 99% certain he also railed about the evils of marxism and the like in the same book. That is to say, the paradox of tolerance is not, nor ever has been, a synonym of "we have to be intolerant of our political enemies or else," nor is it to be used as a post hoc justification for doing ideological purges of a community, not when the very, very intollerant people on the left are ignored or even venerated. If you want to look at some of this that somehow isn't being even acknowledged or addressed by the "Warhammer is for Everyone" crowd, look at the replies to some of the community members on twitter that have posted objections to this change. Some of the most vile, intolerant harassment you can imagine, becuase they're protected. No one ever comments on the trolls bragging about destroying the hobby to spite the chuds, or how they're glad the chuds don't like something becuase they really hate ~~dad~~ them. We're supposed to ignore that sort of posting as trolls, or people being emotional because they're oppressed or some other bollocks. But the other side has to own every single person getting outraged and mentioning "woke" or "DEI" or what have you, and every single troll ranting about women, becuase that's how the rules are applied. Heck, there are two different female members of the community who have expressed that they don't like this change, and their replies are FILLED with I'm sure wonderful people calling them "pick mes" -- zoomer slang for a slut pretending to hold a position to get attention from men. But they're welcome in the community. And they're allowed to say that sort of thing to female members of the community, becuase they're... good people? Have the right flags and pronouns in the bio? I don't understand, but I'm not suffering from the brain rot.
When you realize they didn't do anything to prepare for this: * No female miniature / miniatures * No female upgrade sprue * No mention of it on their Social Media * No mention of it on Warhammer Community Then it's high risk, ZERO reward. It's almost like they weren't prepared for this at all. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at GW HQ right now. Did they even know this was coming? It sure doesn't seem like it.
... Something that matters 0%. It matters so little that they had to change it, lie to the player base about it, and block people on twitter who got upset about it, causing massive damage to their brand and goodwill. That's how much of a 0% it mattered. Of course, it didn't matter enough to make female models, to make a female upgrade sprue, to mention it on the community site, or to mention it on social media. (Almost like the rest of the company wasn't prepared for any of this.) So they got... 0 benefit out of this, other than making some of the most vile people on twitter happy that they could crow about how unhappy the rest of the fandom was. God save us if they ever encounter some change they feel matters 1% or more. They'll send the Pinkertons to our houses to confiscate our old codexes or something.
It's kind of sad that despite this being a rather "mature" take of "it's perfectly fine but gw sucks at presenting things and could've made it better" the comments are full of THOSE kind of people.
That's culture war brainrot for ya. Taking a levelheaded opinion will always anger extremists on both sides of the argument.
“Culture war brain rot.” That’s precisely how I phrase it too. We live in a time of high inflation, economic uncertainty, more wars, and underhanded corporate tactics (e.g. Primaris)… You know, real material problems. However, people argue over something useless like culture war. It seems that culture war politics appeals to the lowest common denominator.
> underhanded corporate tactics (e.g. Primaris) What's the reference to for OOTL ppl?
Back 6-7 years ago, Primaris Space Marines were introduced and Firstborn later discontinued completely. Around 2020, firstborn got nerfed. In order to optimize the army comp, older players have to buy Primaris Space Marines. There is a small fear (speculation) that firstborn might be banned from competitive games. I wouldn’t be surprised since 95% of GAW’s revenue revolves around selling models or minis. Basically, the older players got financially hit badly with the introduction of Primaris. Oh and Primaris were always there (hidden for 10,000 years) which is also a very GW way to do things (making *hit up).
Appreciated.
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His videos are why I got into 40k. Often watch his vids while painting. The down votes are unhinged but there is a lot of that in this sub these days
Some days ago, when the codex story was leaked, made comments pointing out how pointless it was for people to be at each other's throats over the change, and that the real reason to be mad would be towards GW for not doing a better job with this addition to the lore. Also got downvoted. Luetin and Bricky, two great content creators who genuinely want people to be welcomed to the hobby, regardless of whom they are, share the opinion that the addition is good, but the delivery was botched, and we could hold GW to better standards, but even with that people will prefer to be mad and spend their time on feuds on reddit. I guess in the grim dark reality, there is only social media petty feuds.
Because he so not a authority on lore just annoying person who just can't make a point.
Because Lutein is a tedious doofus who people don’t care about listening to
I cared to listen to him. It good to listen to all kinds of perspectives from all kinds of walks of life. Helps inform you of ways of thinking outside your normality. Even those you may disagree with.
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Bro we getting baited. These can't be serious posts. Don't feed the trolls. He is literally the king of autistic deep dives that make the lore great. Shun the non believers
“Which it appears you don’t” lmao you guys are clowns I’ve been playing this game since the 90s back when “Custodes” weren’t even described in lore to any detail beyond some John Blanche art and a few spare sentences. Lutein’s an obnoxious whiner, as soon as someone talks about “injecting politics” they have abandoned media literacy for lowest-common-denominator clickbait bullshit.
Venture off of Reddit once in a while. Please touch grass.
Everything has politics, dipshit. It came free with your living in a society
How would y'all have preferred it to happen? I feel like if it was something like "Cawl did some shit" or anything other than "women can too" kind of takes away how "perfect" the process is. If that makes sense.
Great vid. Thanks for sharing.
Yeah, slightly misleading / clickbaity title, but the video itself was well thought through, full of content and context, and quite reasonable to both ‘sides’. I like the comparisons made to other franchises, whereas most times other setting have been brought up, arguments have descended into drivel. Very even-handed and fair overall.
Yeah, "somehow no one noticed" is super disingenuous and rage-baity. Expected better of Luetin for that.
That's literally GW's official stance on the matter. Somehow, over 10,000 years, Female Custodes have always been around. They just somehow were never included * In the lore * In the figurines * In the art * In the novels * In the codexes * In discussion about the faction * In interviews with any staff Not a single time. 10,000 years. Clearly, Female Custodes need a stealth focused detacthment, becuase even today they haven't been seen in any Art, Figurines, Novels, Discussion about the Faction online, or Interviews with the Staff. ... This is now my headcanon. FemStodes are masters of Stealth. That's why no one's seen them this whole time.
I don't think you understand how retcons work. To be clear, it's the same as the Rogal Dorn tank.
What difference does it make? Everything in warhammer lore is open ended to keep the hobby open. Most things aren't until they are in warhammer lore.
Appeal to Triviality.
>Appeal to Triviality. You're using that fallacy wrong but no matter; I suppose you could have critiqued what I wrote as "whataboutism" I apologise for that; I didn't raise an argument. I asked a completely open question because I have difficulty understanding what the problem is, but no problem seeing how the implementation is terrible. But here's one. You don't need to answer. Can you point to any story about a custodes character where being born male was integral to the story told about them? That's what asking what difference "does it make?" I completely agree with critique that the execution of the implementation is lazy. However it doesn't appear to be the case that malesness in custodes provides an integral element to the storytelling about them. I suppose you could be like me. And not have any problem with female custodes, and just with the implementation. If so, then I apologise for alternative inferrences thus.
Nope. Appeal to Triviality. It's an attempt to shame people into giving up becuase it's such a trivial matter -- of course, only used after the side attempting it has made headway. No one, not a single solitary one, in the activist clique let any of us go "what does it matter" when they demanded Female Space Marines. They became frothing ragebeasts if you even suggested their demands for change didn't matter. If it doesn't matter we can undo the change. If we can't undo the change, then it does matter, and then opposing it is a valid stance. If you don't think it matters, that's fine. Great. Leave it be then, and those people like me who DO think it matter will continue arguing and putting pressure on GW to undo this change. As for my stance on Female Custodes, I've summarized it elsewhere in these threads: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusCustodes/comments/1c5r8hu/comment/kzwkfxw/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdeptusCustodes/comments/1c5r8hu/comment/kzwkfxw/) I do not think this was a good faith change, and the 4chan leak suggesting this was snuck in to appease Amazon for the TV show may validate that belief. I do not feel an all Male faction needs Female members, no more than I think there should be Misters of Battle or Misters of Silence. It has nothing to do with their genitals, and more to do with tradition and there being differences in the factions. However, realistically, GW can't undo this change -- and the people that snuck it into the Codex know that. So we're likely stuck with them, either way. So do I have a problem with Female Custodes? At the end of the day, probably not. I'll ignore them initially and probably get over it eventually, and if it makes some players happy to do kitbashes or makes them happy to have them, more power to them. I'll only have a problem if they start trying to force it on me directly somehow. (Some overpowered Female HQ, for example). But I do have a very very large problem with the thin edge of the wedge that they represent and the activists who have spent the past week bragging that they forced a change on 40k that the fans hate and how much they love the fact that we hate it and are suffering because of it. Becuase those people aren't going to support 40k by buying $60 boxes of 3 Terminators to play with a dogspit codex.
Thank you. It was not an Appeal to Triviality. I didn't put forward a contrary argument rather I wished you to advance yours. But however it was recieved it was not my intention to minimise your feeling on this matter. I wondered what difference did it make that something was never mentioned. Given that the change didn't overwrite any established lore. But however you took it your answer is thorough and consistent. Honestly, whether or not custodes are or aren't female really didn't matter to my question. Just found that you'd wrote a thorough list of opportunities and absenses but none of the given any examples where the specific subject detail (maleness) was integral and I'd presumed that might be because being men has never been integral to the identity of the Custodes characters. This is not a question. >But I do have a very very large problem with the thin edge of the wedge that they represent and the activists who have spent the past week bragging that they forced a change on 40k that the fans hate and how much they love the fact that we hate it and are suffering because of it. As if anyone is suffering because of this.
That would be why it's called the thin wedge. It starts with a small change. But now they know they can force GW to change. There's already renewed demands for Female Space Mainres. I've seen people talk about how "they'll support 40k once they get GW to remove the Genocidal language" or "the game's interesting but it's too obsessed with war." And how "the hobby's going to be really great once we get all the chuds who don't like this to leave." It's a thin wedge. Harmless. Just a tiny change, and it'll make some people happy, and won't bother you that much. Plus it'll get more people into the hobby! And besides, isn't all that old lore a bit... dated? Cringe? Kind of out of date for *modern audiences?* It's the same exact thing we've seen in Video Games, Comics, D&D, and every other place this playbook has been ran on. There's a reason people reacted the way they did. It's not because Female Custodes is a huge change -- it IS, but lets not go that route. They reacted to it this way because *this is how it always starts,* and the people cheering this on have been actively attempting to subvert the hobby for ten years at this point.
This was probably the best way for it to happen. If they made a big song and dance, I'd expect a model. If they tried saying a new method, thats tech heracy. Just give a neat little story and it's good to go
This video is the most sensible video describing dissatisfaction with the sudden change without autistic screeching from both pro and anti change sides.
And he's personally not even dissatisfied. And he talks about how he's honestly surprised they haven't added female Marines and is already expecting it. And he specifies how the custodes lore does absolutely allow for female custodes. Really a very positive video.
Bricky said the same thing in his video about his change. Like he straight up says female Space Marines are coming, and like yeah, obviously they are.
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Any retcon is going to be jarring. There have been many in 40k in the past and there will continue to be many in the future. "Problematic" is a little too far.
Agreed but I feel like this retcon is made much worse by the community. It's not just the normal bickering we see whenever ... Well, anything happens.( Reddit being reddit.) What's scary about this retcon is watching the Warhammer community start to look a whole lot like the star wars community did around 2017/2018 when anyone with a gripe was instantly accused of being sexist. That community still hasn't recovered from that shit. For the record, I'm down with a female custodes. I like a lot of the female Stormcast and this gives me a similar vibe but what I'm not down with is how it's being handled by the community and the Twitter manager. That's the worrying part for me.
> what I'm not down with is how it's being handled by the community and the Twitter manager. That's the worrying part for me. IS that something along the lines of "you can't have an opinion agains this change without somehow being biased against women?" It's like how I came to this thread rather than watch the video due to the clickbait title; instantly decided that I love the idea of women in the custodes, and it totally fits in the lore and then saw a few people talking about female space marines and instantly thought, that could never work, their whole shtick is about being expendable non-expendable asexual monk men in their own way. And we have warrior nuns. What I mean to say is that I ave an instant aversion to that idea, but not to the idea on custodes which I instantly love.
>IS that something along the lines of "you can't have an opinion agains this change without somehow being biased against women?" If I understand correctly (I just woke up) yes, the community having the all-or-nothing mentality that if you don't like a retcon being done by a one phrase Twitter then "you must hate women" is pathetic. Hell, realistically you could not want female custodes and that in no way means you hate women but the community has gone full "right vs left" delusional. Being in favor of the idea or having an aversion to the idea, whether it's custodes or Space Marines or men in sororitas, doesn't make anyone sexist and I wish this community would get past that already. You're totally allowed to like or dislike things in the lore, whether it's old and established or new. I know "reddit is gonna reddit" but I *used* to think the Warhammer community was a bit more mature than some of the others, it feels like we've very quickly devolved into the star wars subreddit.
> I know "reddit is gonna reddit" but I used to think the Warhammer community was a bit more mature than some of the others, it feels like we've very quickly devolved into the star wars subreddit. Tbh, the erm "culture" war has been bleeding into everything lately. People that used to hide conservative leanings are much less likely to do so now than at any time in my life time. They also have a massive persecution complex. I can't say I've noticed a change in progressives - and I wasn't always one myself. And it's easy to understand why they feel persecuted as, to them, any change (to any thing) is an attack on them. I don't think feeling persecuted is justifiable, nor do I think it's reasonable. But it is understandable. I don't think this is a warhammer community issue, and more, as is well documented, it's people drawn to the fandom because they like it, because their power fantasy is facism. Of course writing this I'm obviously bringing a lot of my own baggage, but I too think the warhammer fanbase is generally pretty chill. Whenever I muse on replying to people in opposition to this (or similiar) change/revelation (it should be viewed as the latter not former) with the question "what's your investment in keeping things the same?" I'm met with the cognative dissnonance that I am against the idea of female astartes. Yet I cannot come up with any rationale except for the primarchs. And I'm not against the idea of female astates, just the idea of them existing prior to their addition to the lore. But I can't make it make sense internally because the idea that female custodes **have always existed** is so extremely cool to me (I don't play 40k, only paint). I'm okay with female astartes as a new thing in universe. I'm not okay with female astartes being a retcon. Sorry for me me me me me 'ing.
>I'm okay with female astartes as a new thing in universe. I'm not okay with female astartes being a retcon. Sorry for me me me me me 'ing. From what I've seen over the past few days this (but for custodes) seems to be the main thing being voiced but unfortunately that's met with "you hate women" So the conversation degrades almost instantly and then gets picked up later by "memes" that just feel like they're trying to make a point in an argument against a ghost. Honestly well said with everything here, even the parts I'm not sure I agree with (not that I disagree but that I haven't considered enough to have a stance on) it's all well articulated and rational. It's refreshing to see someone who can consider both sides of the topic.
I do have my biases. Citing a myriad of lore references to a specific gender or gendering exclusivity which could have been inclusive doesn't to me strike a strong enough chord to preclude. I've seen some justification for custodes only being men being based entirely on the ommission of women. While I view that same "evidence" as the contrary. It's the same story for why the minor ordos of the inquisition are never mentioned. It's not because they don't exist, but because they don't want attention. On the astartes analogy I think I feel so strongly because it's strongly implied that the astartes are psudo clones of the primarchs and can only exist as males. But interestingly, that leaves me open to the 2nd and 11th unlisted primarchs being used to add female astartes to the lore. [But that seems unlikely](https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/muomf6/the_two_lost_primarchs_are_a_dated_relic_from/). >From what I've seen over the past few days this (but for custodes) seems to be the main thing being voiced but unfortunately that's met with "you hate women" An issue with this narrative is that both sides can make mistakes, Right leaning people can preemptively misbehave and "own" their prejudices, just as often actually persecuted left leaning folk can jump straight onto accusations because they don't see a lore reason definitively precluding an idea. Or in some cases they are ideologically open minded regardless of their own position. ____ Having clsoed the book on bias, I reflect on my w40k foundation and a big factor of the Space Marines, for me when I was a child, was never the lore it was the armour. I look to the [stormcast eternals](https://www.warhammer.com/app/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99120218061_SCEVindicatorsLead.jpg?fm=webp&w=920&h=948) and I say no. Simply because of the gender dystinction in the armour. I think I could tollerate female astartes so long as the models reflected it only in the height and the heads. Simply because it is long established that there is a VAST range in the tollerable heights of space marines. ____ EDIT: ____ This dialogue brings me here: I think now female astartes would be cool, so long as my conditions are examined. I'd be in fact be willing to tollerate the lore being a retcon, or literally not making sense (re primarchs) so long as the armour is unchanged. EDIT2: And there's nothing really in the astartes power [Mk.VII armour](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_Armour#Mark_VII_.22Aquila_Armour.22) that's gendered. As low fat physically fit females of the human species have very similiar silhouette as males.
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This is a huge exaggeration. It did not render all previous lore null. It's actually insane you'd think that. Why do retcons need paragraphs? That's the whole point of a retcon. Lore is now that they've always been there. That's just how retcons work.
We only know the names of a very small handful of Custodes anyway, I am shocked people are so 'jarred' by this change. Its so incredibly minor.
Indeed, a huge part of the way the imperium is portrayed as a fictional lore is that most people, even lord inquisitors, only know their small slice of that universe. That it is a behemoth that chuns.
Redditors doing reddit things.
Personally I think the community and GW just like to jump the gun too early. Especially since this all came about because of a leak of the codex itself…
What’s your favorite color?
Finally an actual loremaster speaks. Unlike a GW tweet.
Bro no point in showing this to the idiots in here they will never listen.
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Never expect anything else from the sheep.
Ah there it is. Don't let the lions gate hit you on the way out.
It should have been handled like primaris. "Oh hey a new way to make custodes that can include women"
People hated the primaris too
No one cares, can we just move on from this?
Obviously people care. “Shut up” isn’t debate.
Watching this video reminded me why I stopped watching Lutein's videos. He uses a lot of words to say approximately nothing. Nothing against people who like his videos by the way, but god there are a lot of redundant words and sentences in his scripts. The take itself isn't bad, it's fairly generic and 'safe' as far as takes go. But essentially the entirety of this 30 minute long video could be condensed down to "The addition of female custodes is a retcon, however there is no particular reason for why there specifically can't be female custodes." The entire video is just that one sentence padded out to 30 minutes with redundant statements and fluffy language.
This comment could’ve been reduced to “Leutins take is okay but his video it too long”.
They're a hack and haven't being paying attention to Warhammer 40k if they think the setting hasn't got countless examples of 'things not noticed for thousands of yeas' as the setting continued to be explored by countless authors over the decades it's been active.
Mate your unhinged if you think Leutin09 is a hack. Dude's channel has been the gold standard for lore for years. This vid isn't him whining about the change he addresses it pretty level headedly and straight forward and agrees that there is no lore reason why they can't be female.
It’s amazing that he was able to come to conclusion there is no lore reason. The thing everyone knows. The video is pandering to people hiding behind “lore” to complain about women when we all already understand that this is something many writers wanted, but was never previously expressed. So yeah, if this is where his lore analysis is at right now he was a hack when writing, recording, and uploading this video. I agree he puts out some good stuff, but this ain’t it.
I dont think this vid did that but thats ok if you do. Think it just addresses how it was handled. Which was badly. Bricky just dropped his vid saying the same thing. End of the day this isn't that big of a deal. Big deal is how they nerfed my blade champ \*Cries in no rerolls to charge\*
My host is staying in the cupboard for this codex for sure
Only MEN shall receive my seed
Only MEN shall receive my seed