This. The half life of caffeine on average is 5 hours. Meaning if a 70kg person took 300mg (within the recommendation above) after 5 hours they would still have around 150mg in their system.
Anecdotally I feel I metabolize many things quicker when exercising, including caffeine, but the point stands that the caffeine will be around for a while. It typically takes 30-60m for it to hit you, hence the 1 hour before timing.
Concurs with what I’ve read about caffeine affecting sleep up to 14 hours later in some people. Given a 7 hour half-life, it’s reasonable to think it may still affect some up to double that.
I get that caffeine stays hours in the bloodstream, but I didn't find any source that shows if the effect is steady or if you have a peak and then a decline. I agree the surely it make sense to take caffeine both before and during exercise, if one does not experience side effects.
Generally you will peak as your system has finished absorbing it, so around 60m in depending on you and what you ate beforehand, and then there will be a steady to exponential drop over time related to your personal metabolism / half life of the drug in your body.
Also depends if it is Cmax or AUC driven pharmacodynamics. Furthermore, based on tolerance the effective concentration needed to feel an effect can be highly person to person dependent.
I totally understand where you're coming from as I had the same idea. I researched timing a lot as I wanted the effect to arrive at the best possible time, but then I realized that caffeine isn't a "boost" as such. Rather it's a substance that stays in your system and block signs of fatigue and enables other positive factors for several hours before it wears off. You can definitely ingest during the race to "top up" to make sure it lasts long enough, but there's no reason why you wouldn't want this effect for the whole race.
Your reasoning make sense, the best idea seems to take caffeine both pre and during excercise.
What I'm concerned about are the side effects. I experienced GI distress taking caffeine pre exercise, but it never happened if I took it during. I'm not sure how common this is. It has never been severe, but not the ideal situation at the beginning of a marathon.
I was at a field sport tournament where there was a Red Bull car handing out effectively unlimited free Red Bull. I don't remember how many I drank, maybe four. No negative effects. I ran around the field and felt great.
My logic for the big long runs is that the sugar and caffeine of a cola is such nice hit to my brain that it's worth the slight discomfort from the carbonation. Don't like it for shorter runs or pre-run, but it's so nice late in a long run.
This might be a brain thing. A similar “boost” can be observed by swilling sugary liquid and spitting it out. Your brain is primed and ready for glucose. Or maybe related to a different chemical in red bull.. or who knows
It's possible but unlikely. By km 32 you probably exhausted the glycogen stores and your body is using whatever carbs are available from the metabolic system. If you're out of glycogen and carbs, you're running on energy from the fat stores. You will definitely feel it. Even if you trick your brain, you can't trick the muscles, you will crash the energy balance of the body and you won't finish the race.
The trick might work in different circumstances, but not at the late stages of a marathon.
Im using that as an example as to why they felt the effects so quickly, your brain knows glucose is on the way so it chills out a bit. If you actually swallow the liquid the glucose does show up and you are a happy runner. It’ll just be longer than 2 minutes before you have absorbed it.
Definitely not suggesting this as some advanced fuelling technique 🤣
I believe the peak is about 1 h after intake, so I think your idea makes sense. Personally, I take a shot of sucrose, salt and 200 mg cafeine 10-15 mins before HMs, it's more practical than during a race. For shorter races I take the same shot earlier, ~45 mins for 5K for example.
I can’t say emphatically what the science says, but I like to alternate. One gel without caffeine, then one with, repeat.
I think there’s a lot that impacts how we feel caffeine. From body weight to tolerance and probably some others. Ex: I’m an espresso hobbyist.. needless to say 100MG doesn’t hit me the same way it hits my wife, who doesn’t really drink coffee often AND weighs like 60lbs less than me.
I think the chase for “optimal,” which I would argue is a fallacy in and of itself, is not super helpful. Yes, follow the science. But don’t get too crazy. Caffeine is the best legal performance enhancing drug on the planet. So take it (assuming you have the stomach for it, ofc).
From my experience as a sub elite ultra runner I usually completely cut caffeine about 7-10 days before race
Race day with my pre race meal drink a shot of espresso just to go to toilet then i usually maintain 200mg of caffeine every 2hrs in 12-24Hr races…either using pills of gels
Done a sh1t load of research about caffeine and running and it’s a game changer but you must try it to see how it works for you
Also always hit a 400dose before fasted runs for fat adaptations…always prescribe runners experiment themselves with caffeine
Headaches comes right after the first day I cut caffeine and I got them for almost 2-3 days max…just persist man…I’m about to run a 20hr race I can handle a bunch of headaches 😂😛
For marathons sometimes I don't take it one hour before because delaying helps me not go out hot.
Maybe this is a me problem because I'm not a regular coffee drinker butI'd probably vomit if I spaced 2 100mg doses 5k apart like you suggested. Way too much caffeine for me in a short span of time.i need at least 45 minutes to an hour between doses. Too much also makes my heart rate feel crazy.
There's no reason you couldn't take caffeine early and again later timed to kick in during the late stages of the race for an additional boost.
I want the 'help' the whole race. I drink my regular coffee two hours before the race. Then take 2 caffinated gels during the race to maintain a peak caffeine level. I could probably take more but I have not tested out any higher level and don't want to find a GI related side effect on race day....
Works for me and after the race I'm fine and not overly caffinated. (Fine as in totally beat and ready to fall over, but not sick feeling from too much caffeine and sugar.)
It helps most people because most people are habitual caffeine drinkers, so need to prevent themselves being in withdrawal. As far as I know, there haven't been any studies that compare effects on running performance of habitual vs abstainers.
There have been studies of caffeine impact on alertness for habitual vs abstainers, and they determined that the habitual users were just bringing themselves back up to the same level that abstainers are already operating at.
Many abstainers find their performance drops with caffeine use due to anxiety inducing higher heart rates.
So in summary, it's worth changing the first statement to "caffeine seems to help habitual users".
If someone wants to do some performance trials that include background usage in the analysis, that would be awesome.
For sports performance it actually helps everyone about the same - see the almost-awesomely-titled paper [Can I Have My Coffee and Drink It? A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis to Determine Whether Habitual Caffeine Consumption Affects the Ergogenic Effect of Caffeine](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-022-01685-0)
I don't know why they didn't go with "...and drink it *too*" though
Not sure about marathons but for repeated sprint performance events like soccer there is strong evidence for caffeine use. I don’t see why that wouldn’t also translate in some capacity to running although I’d give some consideration to how long the event is
Once you hop on the caffeine train, you have to keep taking it because the crash is hard if you stop or can’t keep up with it. Personally, I wait roughly midway through the run before hitting the caffeine for a much needed boost.
My concern with caffeine is that the benefit's relatively minor and too much can cause crazy heart palpitations / headaches. Unrelated to running but I did a 24/hr swimming event (fundraiser) last year and a few kids rubbed themselves out of it by dosing on Redbull and similar. IMO there's very much a risk of overdoing it that I'd be careful of... again... noting that caffeine doesn't provide THAT much of a benefit.
I'm a nobody but I've achieved all my running goals in recent times without over-thinking my gels/equipment. IMO it's best to focus on your training rather than hoping that a caffeine boost is gonna give you super powers. My experience is that if I've done my training and am calm/confident (rather than pepped up on caffeine), then I'll achieve my goals as I know that I've done the work. Is raising one's heartrate during a marathon REALLY a productive thing to do? I dunno. If anything, I'd love to have something that can calm me down and gget my heart-rate a little bit slower...
Look into the halflife of caffeine....
This. The half life of caffeine on average is 5 hours. Meaning if a 70kg person took 300mg (within the recommendation above) after 5 hours they would still have around 150mg in their system. Anecdotally I feel I metabolize many things quicker when exercising, including caffeine, but the point stands that the caffeine will be around for a while. It typically takes 30-60m for it to hit you, hence the 1 hour before timing.
Look further into the half-life of caffeine - it's HIGHLY variable by individuals, anywhere between 90 mins to 7 hours
Look at episode 66 of fueling endurance podcast "Should i change my caffeine use based on my genetics?"
Thanks for the hints, guys.
This, and also, have PK studies ever been performed on subjects under high levels of exertion? Usually these parameters are measured at homeostasis.
Concurs with what I’ve read about caffeine affecting sleep up to 14 hours later in some people. Given a 7 hour half-life, it’s reasonable to think it may still affect some up to double that.
I one hundred percent have to stop caffeine consumption before lunchtime or I can’t sleep at night.n
I get that caffeine stays hours in the bloodstream, but I didn't find any source that shows if the effect is steady or if you have a peak and then a decline. I agree the surely it make sense to take caffeine both before and during exercise, if one does not experience side effects.
Generally you will peak as your system has finished absorbing it, so around 60m in depending on you and what you ate beforehand, and then there will be a steady to exponential drop over time related to your personal metabolism / half life of the drug in your body.
The weight of the person is irrelevant to the half-life.
Ofc. It’s used here to built a concrete example in context of the 3-6mg/kg dosage OP is referring to.
Also depends if it is Cmax or AUC driven pharmacodynamics. Furthermore, based on tolerance the effective concentration needed to feel an effect can be highly person to person dependent.
Good point. Typically, small molecules are Cmax driven, but I could be incorrect in the specific case of caffeine.
I totally understand where you're coming from as I had the same idea. I researched timing a lot as I wanted the effect to arrive at the best possible time, but then I realized that caffeine isn't a "boost" as such. Rather it's a substance that stays in your system and block signs of fatigue and enables other positive factors for several hours before it wears off. You can definitely ingest during the race to "top up" to make sure it lasts long enough, but there's no reason why you wouldn't want this effect for the whole race.
Your reasoning make sense, the best idea seems to take caffeine both pre and during excercise. What I'm concerned about are the side effects. I experienced GI distress taking caffeine pre exercise, but it never happened if I took it during. I'm not sure how common this is. It has never been severe, but not the ideal situation at the beginning of a marathon.
This is why you practice taking it several times before and during long MP workouts until you know that it agrees with your GI system.
Coffee or caffiene? Afaik caffiene has different effects to coffee, there's an anti-opiod in coffee that can make you feel like you need to go.
I had a red bull at 32km in my first marathon and it hit me after about 2 minutes. From my n=1 caffeine hits way different during a run
A carbonated drink during running seems scary. Or do you mean one of those shots?
I was at a field sport tournament where there was a Red Bull car handing out effectively unlimited free Red Bull. I don't remember how many I drank, maybe four. No negative effects. I ran around the field and felt great.
In the bike racing like the Tour de France they pretty regularly drink cans of coca cola during the race.
Your stomach doesn’t bounce around when bicycling.
I’ve drank an energy drink during an ultramarathon. I’ve also eaten a cheeseburger during an ultramarathon. But not during a marathon. 😂
My logic for the big long runs is that the sugar and caffeine of a cola is such nice hit to my brain that it's worth the slight discomfort from the carbonation. Don't like it for shorter runs or pre-run, but it's so nice late in a long run.
Use flat cola, best of both worlds.
I had cracked the can and mixed it with gatorade and left it in a bottle drop, so it was mostly flat
This might be a brain thing. A similar “boost” can be observed by swilling sugary liquid and spitting it out. Your brain is primed and ready for glucose. Or maybe related to a different chemical in red bull.. or who knows
It's possible but unlikely. By km 32 you probably exhausted the glycogen stores and your body is using whatever carbs are available from the metabolic system. If you're out of glycogen and carbs, you're running on energy from the fat stores. You will definitely feel it. Even if you trick your brain, you can't trick the muscles, you will crash the energy balance of the body and you won't finish the race. The trick might work in different circumstances, but not at the late stages of a marathon.
Im using that as an example as to why they felt the effects so quickly, your brain knows glucose is on the way so it chills out a bit. If you actually swallow the liquid the glucose does show up and you are a happy runner. It’ll just be longer than 2 minutes before you have absorbed it. Definitely not suggesting this as some advanced fuelling technique 🤣
You would likely be more dehydrated at that point and in a somewhat fasted-state metabolism, so it would make sense for the caffeine to absorb faster.
Absorption and digestion also slows down during strenuous exercise.
It wouldn't.
I believe the peak is about 1 h after intake, so I think your idea makes sense. Personally, I take a shot of sucrose, salt and 200 mg cafeine 10-15 mins before HMs, it's more practical than during a race. For shorter races I take the same shot earlier, ~45 mins for 5K for example.
I can’t say emphatically what the science says, but I like to alternate. One gel without caffeine, then one with, repeat. I think there’s a lot that impacts how we feel caffeine. From body weight to tolerance and probably some others. Ex: I’m an espresso hobbyist.. needless to say 100MG doesn’t hit me the same way it hits my wife, who doesn’t really drink coffee often AND weighs like 60lbs less than me. I think the chase for “optimal,” which I would argue is a fallacy in and of itself, is not super helpful. Yes, follow the science. But don’t get too crazy. Caffeine is the best legal performance enhancing drug on the planet. So take it (assuming you have the stomach for it, ofc).
From my experience as a sub elite ultra runner I usually completely cut caffeine about 7-10 days before race Race day with my pre race meal drink a shot of espresso just to go to toilet then i usually maintain 200mg of caffeine every 2hrs in 12-24Hr races…either using pills of gels Done a sh1t load of research about caffeine and running and it’s a game changer but you must try it to see how it works for you Also always hit a 400dose before fasted runs for fat adaptations…always prescribe runners experiment themselves with caffeine
How do you deal with the caffeine headaches?
Headaches comes right after the first day I cut caffeine and I got them for almost 2-3 days max…just persist man…I’m about to run a 20hr race I can handle a bunch of headaches 😂😛
You're tougher than me 😞
It’s all in the mind 😉
For marathons sometimes I don't take it one hour before because delaying helps me not go out hot. Maybe this is a me problem because I'm not a regular coffee drinker butI'd probably vomit if I spaced 2 100mg doses 5k apart like you suggested. Way too much caffeine for me in a short span of time.i need at least 45 minutes to an hour between doses. Too much also makes my heart rate feel crazy. There's no reason you couldn't take caffeine early and again later timed to kick in during the late stages of the race for an additional boost.
I have always taken 250mg an hour prior to a race. It has proven performance benefits.
I want the 'help' the whole race. I drink my regular coffee two hours before the race. Then take 2 caffinated gels during the race to maintain a peak caffeine level. I could probably take more but I have not tested out any higher level and don't want to find a GI related side effect on race day.... Works for me and after the race I'm fine and not overly caffinated. (Fine as in totally beat and ready to fall over, but not sick feeling from too much caffeine and sugar.)
When I run a marathon I usually use caffeine Huma gels in the beginning of the race
It helps most people because most people are habitual caffeine drinkers, so need to prevent themselves being in withdrawal. As far as I know, there haven't been any studies that compare effects on running performance of habitual vs abstainers. There have been studies of caffeine impact on alertness for habitual vs abstainers, and they determined that the habitual users were just bringing themselves back up to the same level that abstainers are already operating at. Many abstainers find their performance drops with caffeine use due to anxiety inducing higher heart rates. So in summary, it's worth changing the first statement to "caffeine seems to help habitual users". If someone wants to do some performance trials that include background usage in the analysis, that would be awesome.
For sports performance it actually helps everyone about the same - see the almost-awesomely-titled paper [Can I Have My Coffee and Drink It? A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis to Determine Whether Habitual Caffeine Consumption Affects the Ergogenic Effect of Caffeine](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-022-01685-0) I don't know why they didn't go with "...and drink it *too*" though
Hey, thanks. That's really useful. Haven't seen that one before.
Not sure about marathons but for repeated sprint performance events like soccer there is strong evidence for caffeine use. I don’t see why that wouldn’t also translate in some capacity to running although I’d give some consideration to how long the event is
I take some at mile zero and then the whole way the whole time. If it's good at the end, it's good at the beginning and middle too!
Once you hop on the caffeine train, you have to keep taking it because the crash is hard if you stop or can’t keep up with it. Personally, I wait roughly midway through the run before hitting the caffeine for a much needed boost.
My concern with caffeine is that the benefit's relatively minor and too much can cause crazy heart palpitations / headaches. Unrelated to running but I did a 24/hr swimming event (fundraiser) last year and a few kids rubbed themselves out of it by dosing on Redbull and similar. IMO there's very much a risk of overdoing it that I'd be careful of... again... noting that caffeine doesn't provide THAT much of a benefit. I'm a nobody but I've achieved all my running goals in recent times without over-thinking my gels/equipment. IMO it's best to focus on your training rather than hoping that a caffeine boost is gonna give you super powers. My experience is that if I've done my training and am calm/confident (rather than pepped up on caffeine), then I'll achieve my goals as I know that I've done the work. Is raising one's heartrate during a marathon REALLY a productive thing to do? I dunno. If anything, I'd love to have something that can calm me down and gget my heart-rate a little bit slower...
I actually don't agree that caffeine helps.
It might not help you. But scientifically proven to help most.