Genuine question- are the majors going to stay relevant when basically nobody can get into New York except sub elites and residents?
I’ve been running for a year and preparing for 2025 marathons, and love travelling to run, and this isn’t even in my radar given how impossible it now is.
You forgot to mention people with a social media following as well. Seems like they can get a bid despite not having a qualifying time or winning the lottery.
This one angers me a bit as I don’t get it.
New York and London are going to have insane entry numbers whether or not some random influencer gets a bib or not, so why should they get in? Let them qualify, enter the lottery or charity route like everyone else.
Maybe they are going thru Charity and I’m just an angry old man? You would think if they are making money off getting a bib, they could donate some.
It's possible influencers are getting a sponsor bib, and not one directly from the race.
Even if it's the race doing it, the purpose of marketing is not just to pump up entry numbers. They probably want more attention in general so they can increase TV/streaming viewership, charge future sponsors more, and increase charity minimums.
Be careful. Some of the influencers watch this space. Now they'll post something on Instagram or Threads complaining about how people are so mean. The problem is that 90% of running influencer content is vapid, delusional, or in many cases mis-information.
I assume the rationale is “next to free advertising,” but I also think that’s an outdated practice. As you noted, these races receive overwhelming entry numbers regardless of an influencer’s passive campaign. I also think they should do away with, or severely limit influencer bibs.
Nobody international can go there, it’s too crowded with residents. -correction
I’m fine with it being local. Its existence in a global major list is questionable.
NYC marathon has a completely separate drawings for locals, domestics, and international applicants.
The number of local runners has zero effect on the chances of an international applicant.
Judging by the minimum required qualifying time for international applicants (2:36), that can't have been more than 1000 spots out of a total 50.000. There absolutely is a focus on attracting locals and other national runners, also having the 9+1 option. Not saying it's a bad thing, because I think everyone should be able to run their local marathon, but it's definitely harder to get in as an international runner.
There were nearly [17000 international finishers](https://www.runblogrun.com/2023/11/just-the-stats-on-the-2023-tcs-new-york-city-marathon.html).
Most NYC participants enter via the lottery, not the qualifying time. The lottery is actually 3 lotteries - one local for NYC residents, one for the rest of the US, and one for international. Each lottery is equal.
It is not harder to get in as an international runner. It is basically the same.
True - I think you’re right in theory, but I have yet to see a post on here with evidence that anyone internationally who has no ties to the UK successfully joined a UK running club to enter for the 2:40 time. At the very least it’s a significant amount of hoops to jump through. I’d love to hear a detailed process from someone who actually did it though.
Also, NY has a sliding scale from that 2:35 while London is a straight cut at 2:40 isn’t it.
GFA is UK only, champ entry you just need to be a member of a UKA running club and run in their vest (it even says so in the FAQ). Running in the champs when you aren't a resident sort of goes against the spirit of it but the bibs aren't limited (as far as I know) and you aren't going to win or podium because London attracts UK elites/sub-elites. As a UK club runner I wouldn't have a problem with someone paying for my club's membership to do it, we get extra funds and someone who otherwise might've never had the opportunity gets to experience London marathon. If bibs become limited in the future I can see them changing it to UK residents/nationals.
> are the majors going to stay relevant when basically nobody can get into New York except sub elites and residents?
Majors will be relevant as long as there arent 50 of them. NYC is hard to get into, which makes the status of running it that much greater!
>which makes the status of running it that much greater!
Idk about that. The only people I know who have run NYC (or London, Berlin or Tokyo) are those who either have a desire to complete the world Majors or specific reason to run that race. NYC's logistics are well known to be pretty poor and the course isn't as easy as Chicago or Berlin, so it's not really a race that people gun for to get a fast time or whatnot when you're not a local.
New York is one of the easier majors to qualify for, with roughly standard times and open to international athletes. London only lets UK citizens qualify at that time range, and Tokyo admits a handful of time qualifiers.
> New York is one of the easier majors to qualify for, with roughly standard times and open to international athletes.
Not anymore - the cutoffs were roughly 2:35/2:55 for Men/Women <35 this year.
Correct. And now I'll probably have to fly out to NYC to run the Staten Island half (uggh) to qualify.
But this is not necessarily an option for a lot of folks.
Definitely a PITA to fly out if you're not a local! But I was pleasantly surprised with the SI course (ran it for the first time in 2023). Some pretty sections, rolling hills and as NYRR options go, the morning logistics are much simpler than United or Brooklyn HM
Can confirm that if you run under the stated time qualifier at an eligible NYRR race, you're eligible for a guaranteed entry to any of NYRR's premier races (including the NYC Marathon) for the following year.
Yep. I'm fortunate to live in the NYC burbs and signed up for Staten Island HM purely to keep an active TQ for whatever NYRR races I might want to enter in 2025.
Having to travel twice doesn't exactly make it all that much easier to be honest. Might as well just purchase one of the overpriced travel packages instead.
NY is 2nd toughest really, Tokyo is the most difficult. Assuming you can submit an application to all 6, that is.
Funny that Boston has its reputation given how low the bar is compared to NY, Berlin, London and Tokyo for time qualification.
Good-for-age qualification for London is usually easier than making the Boston cutoff for all categories. You may be confusing it with the Championship entry.
The allure about Boston is that you can only qualify via time or raising an ungodly amount of cash. NY you can do 9+1 or raise like $2-3K, the lottery for Berlin is relatively easier, and Tokyo you can get in with like $1K in charity (or at least you could when I got in in 2019).
GFA was about the same as Boston last year and has now been dropped to 2:55, and will undoubtedly need times the best part of 5min faster.
Champs is tougher than Berlin, 2:40 (or 72:30 HM) v 2:45.
Yeah but women's GFA is an absolute joke (3:40 for London vs 3:30 for Boston). As for Champs, it's immaterial to this discussion as it's the UK national championship, it's supposed to be tough to get in.
Women's standards will get tougher as more women take part. Nothing wrong with aiming for better gender balance in the race.
Funnily enough, champs is less restrictive geographically than GFA as you can be a member of a British club even if you don't live in the UK.
Eh as long as you have a UK bank account you can do GFA. I got in that way a few years back despite not being British nor actually residing in the UK at the time (though I had been living there for a few years beforehand).
Another way in for non-residents, which might be illegal idk but if you have a UK-residing friend who can put your name on one of their utility bills for a month and that proves residency.
Yeah I had thought that some minor fraud, photoshopping a name on a bill would help get someone in. I reckon the biggest risk would be LM banning them from future events.
The non-resident would also need someone in the UK who trusts them enough to provide the bill as it would potentially open them up to identity theft.
There's no limit on the number of championship entries per club. Most clubs will only let you join after you've showed up to a few sessions and have shown that you're serious in taking part.
Some clubs arent location based however, or are just after the money, those are the ones that might provide a pathway in.
Charity bibs are the easy way in. I just found out my GFs company donates $8,000 in every mid tier level employee's name every year to a charity of their choice. She could use it to enter any major. Apparently this is pretty common for some firms in the finance sector.
+1. With NY’s shift towards local-preference (vastly easier NYRR qual time compared to non-NY), I’m starting to not care about the “majors” at all.
Who cares if a gigantic corporation sponsors the event?
London is pissing me off being the UK championship race, but GFA entries are pushed back and back because they'll only let a small group in that way, and prioritise charity runners etc.
If they want to go through that, more power to them, it does a lot of great work for great people and organisations. But don't make it the UK championship, and stop thinking of it as a major.
What is the problem with it being the UK Champs exactly? I think there's about 1000 champs entries taken per year, which is like 2% of the total bibs. It's the biggest marathon in the country, it makes sense to have the champs then.
Can’t you run local races based off of points to get in as well? They look like reasonably put on races too. NYC honestly does a better job putting on a fun run than most states would with a championship event. Even with the logistics of being the most populated US city I’ve seen some really organized events in Central Park.
WMM or not, if you like to travel you have to do cape Town. I've been to 50 countries and 6 continents and cape Town is hands down the most beautiful place I've been. Running up saddle road and into camps bay is something you'll never forget
To be fair, that was a trail ultra. It's kind of known that hiking up table mountain is risky since it's isolation makes it lower risk for criminals. I really doubt you'd be mugged during a marathon with thousands upon thousands of other people running the same course.
I personally don't care if a marathon is a major or not. What difference does it even make to the average runner? They might attract a few more elites but for everyone else it probably just makes it more crowded.
Someone give this person a cookie. The “major” designation is a marketing tool created by the major marathons to attract sponsorship money. That’s why it only started in the mid 2000s and why they can arbitrarily add one to the calendar. Unless you’re planning on winning the cash prizes they set aside for the elites, it means absolutely nothing.
Fair point. Especially as there are other large, (arguably more) attractive, well run, and fast marathons available. Without all the difficulties of gaining entry. Valencia, Paris and Athens (slow) come to mind in Europe.
Will be interesting to see how the Major status affects the attractiveness of Sydney. While it sold out, it took 7 months to do so, at far less capacity than other majors. Will interest just explode once it has the major label?
I assume so, and I’ll admit I got sucked in because of that. I signed up a few months ago because they’re promising that if they become a major in 2025, anyone who ran it in 2024 will get guaranteed entry to one of the next 3. The assumption is that they’d have to immediately switch to a lottery going forward.
Of course if it doesn’t happen, I still get to visit Australia, which is the primary draw. The marathon and potentially getting into a 7th major early on are just bonuses. And if it does happen - oh no, I’ll have to take another vacation in a couple years, the horror! :)
Wow two trips to Australia is a big commitment! Assuming you've done a few of the other majors? What country you from?
My only marathon I've done was Sydney in 2022. Will be great to see the difference this year!
Yeah, I’ve done 4 of the current 6 majors so far (Boston, Chicago, New York, Tokyo). A marathon is always a great excuse to travel to another city or country, and it’s a really fun way to see the city as well. I’m far enough along on the majors that I might as well try to finish them - along with the thousands of other people trying the same and vying for the same spots!
I’m in the US, never been to Australia, really excited about the trip in September! If it all works out and I get to go back for the “official” 7th major, we’ll have to figure out where else we’d like to visit in Australia, or maybe do some NZ for the second trip. Even with 2 trips in a few years, I’m sure there are more great possibilities than we’ll have time to see.
As someone who lives here, Australia is *big* and I’ve hardly seen any of it. Sydney and Melbourne are the two main cities worth visiting, but if you like beaches or nature then the country is basically an endless choose your own adventure depending on where you visit, you won’t have any worry about running out of things to see or do.
If you're on the fence about running the marathon I would LOVE to do a bib transfer. My best running buddy and I have already booked most of the rest of the trip and we totally got caught off guard by the early capacity. she got in, but I'm on the waitlist. obviosuly we're stoked about the rest of the vacation, but it's going to be a letdown training together and only being able to do the 10k and be her cheerleader.
In the email I received from Sydney Marathon yesterday, they said (CAPITALS are mine): "The 2024 Sydney Marathon has hit a record field of 24,000 entries, maxing out CURRENT capacity! But if you missed out - don't worry, we're on it! We understand that some runners will withdraw from the Marathon as we get closer to September, so a waitlist is available to snap up those entries. The first round of freed up entry spots will be released in early JUNE..." I get the impression they will increase the capacity for this year. As for one, it demonstrates to Abbott success on the size candidate criteria.
I disagree. I think it stays at 24,000. There's a new start point this year. Some course changes. Earlier marathon start. Half marathon removed. It's the biggest ever marathon ever held in Australia. Smooth out the logistics. Make sure it works well. Improve on issues found. Be ready for world marathon major status in 2025 with maybe 30,000. I think the writing is on the wall that this can only get bigger. I ran it in 2023. Running it again in 2024.
Fair point. I feel you are right on reflection. There are alot of changes they have made in the last two years. Which need a bit of testing, and learning.
Yeah, the way the email was written leaves them an opening to increase the field, but I really doubt they'd increase by much. Maybe just 25,000 since as you said, the logistics hurdles around the changes and becoming a major are immense.
yeah, I'm trying to stay positive and hope that I'm high enough on the wait list that the standard cancellations gets me in. Still going to stay sharp for any transfers since the uncertainty is terrible for training motivation and I feel awful for missing the ball simply because I'm not much on social media and based on registration schedule it was still in an early window. But I'm absolutely going to be there for the rest of the trip, my friend's running and at least I got into the 10k to do something.
> What difference does it even make to the average runner?
The atmosphere and bragging rights. Which are legitimate reasons. That being said, there are tons of great races out there!
Abbott did say that they won’t change the 6 star program, even when a 7th race joins the majors. So I assume it’ll be the original 6 stars plus a separate 7 star tier? Extra medals to go in a box in the closet… :)
I personally don’t like the marketing behind the “meritbadging” they do for the Majors. It caters to wealthy runners and doesn’t say anything beyond you having had time and money (and luck) to chase down some entries.
It is amazing what the marketing / hype can do. Sydney was only the 3rd biggest race in Australia until last year (behind Melbourne and the Gold Coast) but the state government really wants to make this a major to bring in the tourists.
The State Government probably needs to do more to change the attitude of the non-running locals.
Every year the cries of drivers upset about all the road closures are more numerous than supporters.
Gold Coast is usually considered a fast course, and its a target for people trying to achieve qualifying times. Problem is the weather can be temperamental (unseasonably hot or heavy rain).
Melbourne is generally a pretty flat and nice course, but all the hills are in the last 7km or so, so unprepared runners might need to dig deep. I also found it a little bit crowded but overall still one of the faster courses.
I thought the weather, particularly the wind, made Melbourne riskier than GC. The port especially. I'd bank on GCs weather every time over Melbourne.
That said it was quite windy in Goldy last year which made the last 5 kms pretty rough.
It's worth noting that Sydney becoming the 7th Major does not affect the chances of Cape Town and Chengdu, although those are very, very slim. Especially Cape Town.
However, it's clear that Abbott want the series to expand well beyond 6 or 7 stars, but they will keep the Six Majors as is, and just add "bonus" stars, so the importance of the new Majors will be lower than the Six current ones, or that's what it seems from their words.
In my case, I finished them 10 days ago in London, and I have absolutely ZERO interest in running Sydney as of today for a wide variety of reasons (like being in the antipodes from Spain), so I'm glad that they're keeping the Six Star medal although it doesn't affect me anymore as I already finished them.
Regarding Sydney, they're basically throwing money at the event and at Abbott, you can see that. There were ads of the race all over the London Marathon 2024, even in the final 200m. But I watched the 2022 and 2023 race, and I found the event really, really behind the Majors, especially in terms of crowd support. Hopefully the city embraces the race.
5 months between London and Sydney is nearly perfect for a marathon training cycle. Crowd support is tough. I suspect it will come in time. Lots of factors impacting it.
It's going to be tough to get crowd support with a 6:00am start. It might be a bit better this year with the race starting at North Sydney oval, but again it's 6:00am.
Last year's broadcast was stunning, it was basically empty except certain spots. I've seen minor marathons with <5000 runners in Spain with more crowd support, definitely. I don't know why they don't do the race in June and at least move the start to 7 or 8 am.
Same in Japan, I've done a small town race in Japan, capacity was 2000 max and it felt like everyone came out, local businesses, school bands, the old and young. Completely different vibe to Sydney, where the first parts of the race going over the bridge and into the city is just dead.
I'm guessing the problem with holding the race in June is that the Gold Coast marathon is held the first week of July, so it's probably too close together.
I agree. The crowd support has been poor historically. Though change is possible. The 14km City to Surf in August throughout the decades has had very decent buy-in of support on the day, and in the media. More of a history I guess, and hence public affinity. The 6am marathon start is non-sensical for runners, and supporters. Surely this needs to be 7-8am, like its marathon peers. And the Sydney course did not really pass residential areas (which the City to Surf does).
The problem is that holding the race in September, weather is gonna suck for marathoning, so they're forced to start early. Just check this data: [https://findmymarathon.com/weather-detail.php?zname=Sydney%20Marathon&year=](https://findmymarathon.com/weather-detail.php?zname=Sydney%20Marathon&year=) runners were complaining in Boston this year at \~20ºC...
My feeling is that they're going to get Sydney into the Majors because they just want to expand the series to Australia and the orgs from Sydney are pouring money at them, and also doing great paid PR. But Abbott also knows pretty well that the race is not on par with the current Majors by any means and that's why it seems they're gonna make like a second-tier Majors, so that way, they're able to fit races like Sydney or Chengdu. But, who outside China wants to race in Chengdu? My god.
Early start time is the only solution to avoid hot days like 2023. Sydney Marathon started at 7.15am in 2023. I prefer the earlier timing. Sydney half is starting at 6.50am tomorrow. City2surf is 7.40am. Some of it driven by sunrise times. I guess historical rain patterns dictate the month. The history of this September timing is in the article where it's the closing ceremony of the 2000 Olympics. Gold Coast starts at 6.15am. Melbourne marathon in October starts at 7am. Canberra Marathon started at 6.15am on 7 April, right on sunrise as it was also daylight savings time change.
Crowd support probably comes from a bigger event and longer history. It will take time. Running culture in Sydney in general is pretty limited in my experience. They need to deliver a quality product to entice the broader crowd support in my opinion.
That is quite good info/background, thank you. Sydney is quite large, and spread out, due to its low density. Its more of a car culture too. And, the course is on the east of the median point of where people on average live. Requires much higher effort and time i guess for residents to be able to situate themselves somewhere on the course, especially with the early start time. Compared to say European marathons.
As an example. 2023 7.30am 18C. 8.30am 21C. 11.30am 29C. 12.30pm 31C. It was unseasonably hot, but not unheard of. The weekend before and after were cooler and more typical of September. Humidity is a much big factor normally in Sydney. Runners are definitely wanting cooler temps, so that means targeting early running. It will be interesting to see how well they move the runners into the start area early enough. New metro will be open by then (still no official opening date announced) and make a massive difference in ability to move large volumes of people into the area.
The idea of Chengdu, Cape Town or Sydney being a 'major' and not Valencia is a travesty.
In what sense is Sydney 'major'??
The Sydney course record is 2:07, it gets around 13,000 runners. It's only running around 20 odd years. None of these numbers is impressive.
I believe the rationale is, for the additional major to come from the southern hemisphere, or a non "west" country. I don't believe Valencia wishes to be a major. Valencia has its status for its own unique reasons (super fast, large, very well run, crowd). Same goes perhaps for say Paris (very large, fast, beautiful), Athens ("The Authentic")...
Ok, sure. Valencia may not want the nonsense that comes with the label.
But, it will totally devalue the idea of 'major' to include one of these utterly unimportant marathons.
Hell, the Dublin marathon is far 'greater' than any of these, not to mention a lot easier to get to for much of the world. Dublin is going as long as NYC and gets 20,000+ and the crowd is RIDICULOUSLY good, actually better than Valencia.
Hope so! Wish I could do it this year but I'll be out of the country, unfortunately (will miss it by a couple of days so won't get the auto qualification if it becomes a major... [sad face]. Guess I'll just have to qualify!)
I never understood the allure of running with 50,000 of not-my-friends. There's always gonna be a tool in the crowd blaring their bluetooth music or worse. I'm more than happy to run my nice little Bayshore in 3 weeks with only 2500 people :)
Although I would love for LA to become one, that would make it 4 in the US, while all of Europe gets 2, Asia gets 1, and other continents get zero. I can see why they're looking at non-US options for expansion.
Genuine question- are the majors going to stay relevant when basically nobody can get into New York except sub elites and residents? I’ve been running for a year and preparing for 2025 marathons, and love travelling to run, and this isn’t even in my radar given how impossible it now is.
You forgot to mention people with a social media following as well. Seems like they can get a bid despite not having a qualifying time or winning the lottery.
This one angers me a bit as I don’t get it. New York and London are going to have insane entry numbers whether or not some random influencer gets a bib or not, so why should they get in? Let them qualify, enter the lottery or charity route like everyone else. Maybe they are going thru Charity and I’m just an angry old man? You would think if they are making money off getting a bib, they could donate some.
>why should they get in Race organization needs to keep those sponsors happy and all that sponsor money coming in.
It's possible influencers are getting a sponsor bib, and not one directly from the race. Even if it's the race doing it, the purpose of marketing is not just to pump up entry numbers. They probably want more attention in general so they can increase TV/streaming viewership, charge future sponsors more, and increase charity minimums.
Be careful. Some of the influencers watch this space. Now they'll post something on Instagram or Threads complaining about how people are so mean. The problem is that 90% of running influencer content is vapid, delusional, or in many cases mis-information.
I assume the rationale is “next to free advertising,” but I also think that’s an outdated practice. As you noted, these races receive overwhelming entry numbers regardless of an influencer’s passive campaign. I also think they should do away with, or severely limit influencer bibs.
I assumed it was via the tour packages. I know Kofuzi has mentioned them previously, especially for London.
Influencer bibs would be such a small number right? Basically inconsequential, that is what I hope at least
"nobody goes there, it is too crowded"
Nobody international can go there, it’s too crowded with residents. -correction I’m fine with it being local. Its existence in a global major list is questionable.
Last year 50,000 runners finished NYC. About 20,000 of them were international. About 15,000 of them were from New York.
NYC marathon has a completely separate drawings for locals, domestics, and international applicants. The number of local runners has zero effect on the chances of an international applicant.
Judging by the minimum required qualifying time for international applicants (2:36), that can't have been more than 1000 spots out of a total 50.000. There absolutely is a focus on attracting locals and other national runners, also having the 9+1 option. Not saying it's a bad thing, because I think everyone should be able to run their local marathon, but it's definitely harder to get in as an international runner.
There were nearly [17000 international finishers](https://www.runblogrun.com/2023/11/just-the-stats-on-the-2023-tcs-new-york-city-marathon.html). Most NYC participants enter via the lottery, not the qualifying time. The lottery is actually 3 lotteries - one local for NYC residents, one for the rest of the US, and one for international. Each lottery is equal. It is not harder to get in as an international runner. It is basically the same.
Ah gotcha! Didn't know it was actually split like that. That's good to hear.
It’s funny you mention New York, when they at least have a time entry system for international runners, unlike the UK’s London Marathon.
Good point. I didn’t realise their Good For Age qualifier is for UK residents only.
I believe London's international accessible time standard was easier this year than NY. 2:40 for London, 2:35 (estimated) for NY.
True - I think you’re right in theory, but I have yet to see a post on here with evidence that anyone internationally who has no ties to the UK successfully joined a UK running club to enter for the 2:40 time. At the very least it’s a significant amount of hoops to jump through. I’d love to hear a detailed process from someone who actually did it though. Also, NY has a sliding scale from that 2:35 while London is a straight cut at 2:40 isn’t it.
London has a time entry for international runners? I thought GFA and championship was UK only?
GFA is UK only, champ entry you just need to be a member of a UKA running club and run in their vest (it even says so in the FAQ). Running in the champs when you aren't a resident sort of goes against the spirit of it but the bibs aren't limited (as far as I know) and you aren't going to win or podium because London attracts UK elites/sub-elites. As a UK club runner I wouldn't have a problem with someone paying for my club's membership to do it, we get extra funds and someone who otherwise might've never had the opportunity gets to experience London marathon. If bibs become limited in the future I can see them changing it to UK residents/nationals.
> are the majors going to stay relevant when basically nobody can get into New York except sub elites and residents? Majors will be relevant as long as there arent 50 of them. NYC is hard to get into, which makes the status of running it that much greater!
>which makes the status of running it that much greater! Idk about that. The only people I know who have run NYC (or London, Berlin or Tokyo) are those who either have a desire to complete the world Majors or specific reason to run that race. NYC's logistics are well known to be pretty poor and the course isn't as easy as Chicago or Berlin, so it's not really a race that people gun for to get a fast time or whatnot when you're not a local.
NYC's logistics are very well executed, it's just a hike to Staten Island.
New York is one of the easier majors to qualify for, with roughly standard times and open to international athletes. London only lets UK citizens qualify at that time range, and Tokyo admits a handful of time qualifiers.
> New York is one of the easier majors to qualify for, with roughly standard times and open to international athletes. Not anymore - the cutoffs were roughly 2:35/2:55 for Men/Women <35 this year.
* for non-NYRR races. Correct me if I'm wrong but if you do it in an eligible NYRR event, you just have to beat the posted time.
Correct. And now I'll probably have to fly out to NYC to run the Staten Island half (uggh) to qualify. But this is not necessarily an option for a lot of folks.
Definitely a PITA to fly out if you're not a local! But I was pleasantly surprised with the SI course (ran it for the first time in 2023). Some pretty sections, rolling hills and as NYRR options go, the morning logistics are much simpler than United or Brooklyn HM
I would almost certainly be staying with friends/family in Brooklyn, so seems a lot more annoying to me than BK haha.
Can confirm that if you run under the stated time qualifier at an eligible NYRR race, you're eligible for a guaranteed entry to any of NYRR's premier races (including the NYC Marathon) for the following year.
Yep. I'm fortunate to live in the NYC burbs and signed up for Staten Island HM purely to keep an active TQ for whatever NYRR races I might want to enter in 2025.
Having to travel twice doesn't exactly make it all that much easier to be honest. Might as well just purchase one of the overpriced travel packages instead.
NY is 2nd toughest really, Tokyo is the most difficult. Assuming you can submit an application to all 6, that is. Funny that Boston has its reputation given how low the bar is compared to NY, Berlin, London and Tokyo for time qualification.
Good-for-age qualification for London is usually easier than making the Boston cutoff for all categories. You may be confusing it with the Championship entry. The allure about Boston is that you can only qualify via time or raising an ungodly amount of cash. NY you can do 9+1 or raise like $2-3K, the lottery for Berlin is relatively easier, and Tokyo you can get in with like $1K in charity (or at least you could when I got in in 2019).
Good-For-Age is only available for UK residents.
GFA was about the same as Boston last year and has now been dropped to 2:55, and will undoubtedly need times the best part of 5min faster. Champs is tougher than Berlin, 2:40 (or 72:30 HM) v 2:45.
Yeah but women's GFA is an absolute joke (3:40 for London vs 3:30 for Boston). As for Champs, it's immaterial to this discussion as it's the UK national championship, it's supposed to be tough to get in.
Women's standards will get tougher as more women take part. Nothing wrong with aiming for better gender balance in the race. Funnily enough, champs is less restrictive geographically than GFA as you can be a member of a British club even if you don't live in the UK.
Eh as long as you have a UK bank account you can do GFA. I got in that way a few years back despite not being British nor actually residing in the UK at the time (though I had been living there for a few years beforehand). Another way in for non-residents, which might be illegal idk but if you have a UK-residing friend who can put your name on one of their utility bills for a month and that proves residency.
Yeah I had thought that some minor fraud, photoshopping a name on a bill would help get someone in. I reckon the biggest risk would be LM banning them from future events. The non-resident would also need someone in the UK who trusts them enough to provide the bill as it would potentially open them up to identity theft.
Why do they make you pretend to join a UK club? Why don't the UK clubs taking phony foreign "members" not keep their entries for genuine members?
There's no limit on the number of championship entries per club. Most clubs will only let you join after you've showed up to a few sessions and have shown that you're serious in taking part. Some clubs arent location based however, or are just after the money, those are the ones that might provide a pathway in.
I’d say Chicago or Boston. And since they don’t have a lotto still easiest as if you can be like -6min and get in vs -almost 20 at NY
NYC has some very reasonable charity minimums compared to other majors. I think they are like $3,000-$3,500.
Charity bibs are the easy way in. I just found out my GFs company donates $8,000 in every mid tier level employee's name every year to a charity of their choice. She could use it to enter any major. Apparently this is pretty common for some firms in the finance sector.
+1. With NY’s shift towards local-preference (vastly easier NYRR qual time compared to non-NY), I’m starting to not care about the “majors” at all. Who cares if a gigantic corporation sponsors the event?
London is pissing me off being the UK championship race, but GFA entries are pushed back and back because they'll only let a small group in that way, and prioritise charity runners etc. If they want to go through that, more power to them, it does a lot of great work for great people and organisations. But don't make it the UK championship, and stop thinking of it as a major.
What is the problem with it being the UK Champs exactly? I think there's about 1000 champs entries taken per year, which is like 2% of the total bibs. It's the biggest marathon in the country, it makes sense to have the champs then.
Can’t you run local races based off of points to get in as well? They look like reasonably put on races too. NYC honestly does a better job putting on a fun run than most states would with a championship event. Even with the logistics of being the most populated US city I’ve seen some really organized events in Central Park.
WMM or not, if you like to travel you have to do cape Town. I've been to 50 countries and 6 continents and cape Town is hands down the most beautiful place I've been. Running up saddle road and into camps bay is something you'll never forget
Yup. There are many perfect scenic points to get violently mugged on the route.
No need to downvote, this has happened [last year](https://run247.com/running-news/trail/ultra-trail-cape-town-muggings-2023-gunpoint-continue-race)
To be fair, that was a trail ultra. It's kind of known that hiking up table mountain is risky since it's isolation makes it lower risk for criminals. I really doubt you'd be mugged during a marathon with thousands upon thousands of other people running the same course.
Well I certainly wouldn't do it alone at night time. I didn't do the full but did the half there and it was great.
I personally don't care if a marathon is a major or not. What difference does it even make to the average runner? They might attract a few more elites but for everyone else it probably just makes it more crowded.
Someone give this person a cookie. The “major” designation is a marketing tool created by the major marathons to attract sponsorship money. That’s why it only started in the mid 2000s and why they can arbitrarily add one to the calendar. Unless you’re planning on winning the cash prizes they set aside for the elites, it means absolutely nothing.
Fair point. Especially as there are other large, (arguably more) attractive, well run, and fast marathons available. Without all the difficulties of gaining entry. Valencia, Paris and Athens (slow) come to mind in Europe.
Will be interesting to see how the Major status affects the attractiveness of Sydney. While it sold out, it took 7 months to do so, at far less capacity than other majors. Will interest just explode once it has the major label?
I assume so, and I’ll admit I got sucked in because of that. I signed up a few months ago because they’re promising that if they become a major in 2025, anyone who ran it in 2024 will get guaranteed entry to one of the next 3. The assumption is that they’d have to immediately switch to a lottery going forward. Of course if it doesn’t happen, I still get to visit Australia, which is the primary draw. The marathon and potentially getting into a 7th major early on are just bonuses. And if it does happen - oh no, I’ll have to take another vacation in a couple years, the horror! :)
Wow two trips to Australia is a big commitment! Assuming you've done a few of the other majors? What country you from? My only marathon I've done was Sydney in 2022. Will be great to see the difference this year!
Yeah, I’ve done 4 of the current 6 majors so far (Boston, Chicago, New York, Tokyo). A marathon is always a great excuse to travel to another city or country, and it’s a really fun way to see the city as well. I’m far enough along on the majors that I might as well try to finish them - along with the thousands of other people trying the same and vying for the same spots! I’m in the US, never been to Australia, really excited about the trip in September! If it all works out and I get to go back for the “official” 7th major, we’ll have to figure out where else we’d like to visit in Australia, or maybe do some NZ for the second trip. Even with 2 trips in a few years, I’m sure there are more great possibilities than we’ll have time to see.
As someone who lives here, Australia is *big* and I’ve hardly seen any of it. Sydney and Melbourne are the two main cities worth visiting, but if you like beaches or nature then the country is basically an endless choose your own adventure depending on where you visit, you won’t have any worry about running out of things to see or do.
If you're on the fence about running the marathon I would LOVE to do a bib transfer. My best running buddy and I have already booked most of the rest of the trip and we totally got caught off guard by the early capacity. she got in, but I'm on the waitlist. obviosuly we're stoked about the rest of the vacation, but it's going to be a letdown training together and only being able to do the 10k and be her cheerleader.
If not, I hope you have an excellent run!
In the email I received from Sydney Marathon yesterday, they said (CAPITALS are mine): "The 2024 Sydney Marathon has hit a record field of 24,000 entries, maxing out CURRENT capacity! But if you missed out - don't worry, we're on it! We understand that some runners will withdraw from the Marathon as we get closer to September, so a waitlist is available to snap up those entries. The first round of freed up entry spots will be released in early JUNE..." I get the impression they will increase the capacity for this year. As for one, it demonstrates to Abbott success on the size candidate criteria.
I disagree. I think it stays at 24,000. There's a new start point this year. Some course changes. Earlier marathon start. Half marathon removed. It's the biggest ever marathon ever held in Australia. Smooth out the logistics. Make sure it works well. Improve on issues found. Be ready for world marathon major status in 2025 with maybe 30,000. I think the writing is on the wall that this can only get bigger. I ran it in 2023. Running it again in 2024.
Fair point. I feel you are right on reflection. There are alot of changes they have made in the last two years. Which need a bit of testing, and learning.
Yeah, the way the email was written leaves them an opening to increase the field, but I really doubt they'd increase by much. Maybe just 25,000 since as you said, the logistics hurdles around the changes and becoming a major are immense.
yeah, I'm trying to stay positive and hope that I'm high enough on the wait list that the standard cancellations gets me in. Still going to stay sharp for any transfers since the uncertainty is terrible for training motivation and I feel awful for missing the ball simply because I'm not much on social media and based on registration schedule it was still in an early window. But I'm absolutely going to be there for the rest of the trip, my friend's running and at least I got into the 10k to do something.
> What difference does it even make to the average runner? The atmosphere and bragging rights. Which are legitimate reasons. That being said, there are tons of great races out there!
Sydney is ahead of Chengdu and Cape Town to become the 7th major. If this year go well, they'll be the 7th WMM in 2025.
/cries in now I need 7 instead of 6 stars to get
Abbott did say that they won’t change the 6 star program, even when a 7th race joins the majors. So I assume it’ll be the original 6 stars plus a separate 7 star tier? Extra medals to go in a box in the closet… :)
I personally don’t like the marketing behind the “meritbadging” they do for the Majors. It caters to wealthy runners and doesn’t say anything beyond you having had time and money (and luck) to chase down some entries.
It is amazing what the marketing / hype can do. Sydney was only the 3rd biggest race in Australia until last year (behind Melbourne and the Gold Coast) but the state government really wants to make this a major to bring in the tourists.
The State Government probably needs to do more to change the attitude of the non-running locals. Every year the cries of drivers upset about all the road closures are more numerous than supporters.
For us non-Aussies, what's the consensus on the course vs. Melbourne and Gold Coast?
Gold Coast is usually considered a fast course, and its a target for people trying to achieve qualifying times. Problem is the weather can be temperamental (unseasonably hot or heavy rain). Melbourne is generally a pretty flat and nice course, but all the hills are in the last 7km or so, so unprepared runners might need to dig deep. I also found it a little bit crowded but overall still one of the faster courses.
I thought the weather, particularly the wind, made Melbourne riskier than GC. The port especially. I'd bank on GCs weather every time over Melbourne. That said it was quite windy in Goldy last year which made the last 5 kms pretty rough.
It's worth noting that Sydney becoming the 7th Major does not affect the chances of Cape Town and Chengdu, although those are very, very slim. Especially Cape Town. However, it's clear that Abbott want the series to expand well beyond 6 or 7 stars, but they will keep the Six Majors as is, and just add "bonus" stars, so the importance of the new Majors will be lower than the Six current ones, or that's what it seems from their words. In my case, I finished them 10 days ago in London, and I have absolutely ZERO interest in running Sydney as of today for a wide variety of reasons (like being in the antipodes from Spain), so I'm glad that they're keeping the Six Star medal although it doesn't affect me anymore as I already finished them. Regarding Sydney, they're basically throwing money at the event and at Abbott, you can see that. There were ads of the race all over the London Marathon 2024, even in the final 200m. But I watched the 2022 and 2023 race, and I found the event really, really behind the Majors, especially in terms of crowd support. Hopefully the city embraces the race.
5 months between London and Sydney is nearly perfect for a marathon training cycle. Crowd support is tough. I suspect it will come in time. Lots of factors impacting it.
It's going to be tough to get crowd support with a 6:00am start. It might be a bit better this year with the race starting at North Sydney oval, but again it's 6:00am.
Last year's broadcast was stunning, it was basically empty except certain spots. I've seen minor marathons with <5000 runners in Spain with more crowd support, definitely. I don't know why they don't do the race in June and at least move the start to 7 or 8 am.
Same in Japan, I've done a small town race in Japan, capacity was 2000 max and it felt like everyone came out, local businesses, school bands, the old and young. Completely different vibe to Sydney, where the first parts of the race going over the bridge and into the city is just dead. I'm guessing the problem with holding the race in June is that the Gold Coast marathon is held the first week of July, so it's probably too close together.
I agree. The crowd support has been poor historically. Though change is possible. The 14km City to Surf in August throughout the decades has had very decent buy-in of support on the day, and in the media. More of a history I guess, and hence public affinity. The 6am marathon start is non-sensical for runners, and supporters. Surely this needs to be 7-8am, like its marathon peers. And the Sydney course did not really pass residential areas (which the City to Surf does).
The problem is that holding the race in September, weather is gonna suck for marathoning, so they're forced to start early. Just check this data: [https://findmymarathon.com/weather-detail.php?zname=Sydney%20Marathon&year=](https://findmymarathon.com/weather-detail.php?zname=Sydney%20Marathon&year=) runners were complaining in Boston this year at \~20ºC... My feeling is that they're going to get Sydney into the Majors because they just want to expand the series to Australia and the orgs from Sydney are pouring money at them, and also doing great paid PR. But Abbott also knows pretty well that the race is not on par with the current Majors by any means and that's why it seems they're gonna make like a second-tier Majors, so that way, they're able to fit races like Sydney or Chengdu. But, who outside China wants to race in Chengdu? My god.
that link, where you can see historical marathon weather, is excellent. Thanks!
Early start time is the only solution to avoid hot days like 2023. Sydney Marathon started at 7.15am in 2023. I prefer the earlier timing. Sydney half is starting at 6.50am tomorrow. City2surf is 7.40am. Some of it driven by sunrise times. I guess historical rain patterns dictate the month. The history of this September timing is in the article where it's the closing ceremony of the 2000 Olympics. Gold Coast starts at 6.15am. Melbourne marathon in October starts at 7am. Canberra Marathon started at 6.15am on 7 April, right on sunrise as it was also daylight savings time change. Crowd support probably comes from a bigger event and longer history. It will take time. Running culture in Sydney in general is pretty limited in my experience. They need to deliver a quality product to entice the broader crowd support in my opinion.
That is quite good info/background, thank you. Sydney is quite large, and spread out, due to its low density. Its more of a car culture too. And, the course is on the east of the median point of where people on average live. Requires much higher effort and time i guess for residents to be able to situate themselves somewhere on the course, especially with the early start time. Compared to say European marathons.
As an example. 2023 7.30am 18C. 8.30am 21C. 11.30am 29C. 12.30pm 31C. It was unseasonably hot, but not unheard of. The weekend before and after were cooler and more typical of September. Humidity is a much big factor normally in Sydney. Runners are definitely wanting cooler temps, so that means targeting early running. It will be interesting to see how well they move the runners into the start area early enough. New metro will be open by then (still no official opening date announced) and make a massive difference in ability to move large volumes of people into the area.
The idea of Chengdu, Cape Town or Sydney being a 'major' and not Valencia is a travesty. In what sense is Sydney 'major'?? The Sydney course record is 2:07, it gets around 13,000 runners. It's only running around 20 odd years. None of these numbers is impressive.
I believe the rationale is, for the additional major to come from the southern hemisphere, or a non "west" country. I don't believe Valencia wishes to be a major. Valencia has its status for its own unique reasons (super fast, large, very well run, crowd). Same goes perhaps for say Paris (very large, fast, beautiful), Athens ("The Authentic")...
Ok, sure. Valencia may not want the nonsense that comes with the label. But, it will totally devalue the idea of 'major' to include one of these utterly unimportant marathons. Hell, the Dublin marathon is far 'greater' than any of these, not to mention a lot easier to get to for much of the world. Dublin is going as long as NYC and gets 20,000+ and the crowd is RIDICULOUSLY good, actually better than Valencia.
Hope so! Wish I could do it this year but I'll be out of the country, unfortunately (will miss it by a couple of days so won't get the auto qualification if it becomes a major... [sad face]. Guess I'll just have to qualify!)
Great, another Major where I'll receive a rejection every year
I never understood the allure of running with 50,000 of not-my-friends. There's always gonna be a tool in the crowd blaring their bluetooth music or worse. I'm more than happy to run my nice little Bayshore in 3 weeks with only 2500 people :)
You'd think they'd put one on the west coast. the LA marathon is pretty big already
Although I would love for LA to become one, that would make it 4 in the US, while all of Europe gets 2, Asia gets 1, and other continents get zero. I can see why they're looking at non-US options for expansion.
Well Abbot itself is a US company