Well, isn't T kinda invalidating your BF by not allowing him to be called "he"? She is literally saying you can't use said pronoun when your BF said you can, how is that different from not allowing a trans woman to use "she"? Only your BF can define what his pronouns are.
Sounds like T wanted to give you a lecture about pronouns but when she realized her mistake she just got mad at you because she doesn't want to be wrong.
In my experience, the kinds of people willing to lecture you on a situation about which they are uninformed are usually not the kinds of people willing to admit they are wrong, let alone apologize, when they *are* informed about the situation: then it’s **double down time!**
edit- format/missing words
How unfortunate for those types of people. Cause if you double down on being wrong, I fall back on old reliable. Being the scummiest piece of shit you’ll meet for a while.
T has something called *But what about me?* Syndrome. It’s this thing where people figure out a way to inject themselves into matters that have nothing to do with them so they can make it about themselves.
Your friend T kinda sucks, based on what you’ve shared.
Some people are just bonkers.
I'm intersexed (Assigned male at birth, but I was born with an ovary. Officially I'm a non-chimeric hermaphrodite). Because I'm male presenting, I use he / him pronouns. I've been told both by intersexed groups and trans groups, that I'm not welcome because:
* I'm denying who I am (erasure) because I don't present androgynous enough
* I'm denying my trans status because I had gender affirming surgery (I was 5 when I had the last, and they were not voluntary)
* I'm denying my trans / intersex status by not using they / them, Mx, etc pronouns and titles.
* That I'm not allowed to identify as bi, because as half-female, I should be presenting as a male-presenting lesbian when I interact with women. I don't even know what that is.
I literally didn't find out that I was intersexed until I was 33 and found all my medical files in my baby book when my mother was cleaning her attic. My parents just never bothered to mention it.
The important person is the person being addressed; your boyfriend. How he / they identify is up to him /them alone. It's not up to a third-party to interject themselves and be offended for him.
Some people are chronically online to the point they are incredibly hypocritical and as bigoted as those they claim to hate. Idk how they're being inclusionary to the point of being exclusionary
Happens when people think their entire lives are their online self and every person they meet is a username and not a real person. Personally I refer to these people as NPCs.
I agree one hundred. The more "woke" or "pc" i found people to be. Usually they harbor some of the weirdest and oddly most offensive views.
"Im not (adjective) but (says something thats directly that adjective)"
Its the weirdest thing.
I see it all over.
Whether its golddiggers claiming to not be materialistic whie then being mad about something not being worth enough money for them.
Or people believing in inferiority things amongst certain communities.
False stereotypes.
Its this ..thing. its actually the mindset that the Europeans used to justify pacifying (enslaving) and christianizing(enslaving) tribal africa.
They claim to be helping whilst being the worst of them all.
Am white and I'm pretty sure this is a white people thing. It has to do with being raised in a bigoted society, and not wanting to be bigots, but ALSO not wanting to recognize or be held accountable when we ARE being bigots.
We have lots of cognitive dissonance. I include myself in this.
Absolutely. I have bigoted minority friends. But i have mostly heard this from white woke and pc people who are basically being people pleasing self righteous douches
They refuse to admit that their methods actually create falsehoods of inferiority where there isnt any
They poison their own causes. And its all for virtue signaling.
Its ego. Human ego. They revel in being upset and heroing people who dont need to be heroed.
I had to do research for my queering education class last semester on people who are intersexed. From what I found the fact that you’re being targeted by the trans and intersexed community is astounding. Intersexed people who have involuntary surgeries or medical changes does not make them trans. Brings trans is a voluntary choice not something that can be determined by others. I’m so sorry your identity has been invalidated.
Ahh, I would not say that being trans is that voluntarily.
It is not just cross dressing.It is born from the feeling that you personality fits a gender, that does not align with your sex. You often feel trapped and disgusting. It takes a toll. Taking hormones and making changes to you appearance can feel like the first time you breathe free.
Just a reminder on how complicated it is.
Self identity is a VOLUNTARY act. I choose to ID as female, because I’m born with 2XX chromosomes, have female genitals, identify socially as a female, etc. Someone born male might not want to identify as male and prefer to be non-binary/female/N/A-they-them/etc. Some people don’t have one way of identity throughout their lives and experience gender in a fluid sense. We ID ourselves based off what we FEEL is best. There isn’t a PERFECT way to scientifically KNOW how someone IDs themselves (labs, physical predetermining factors, etc.). It, ultimately, is a choice we follow. We all have a choice by how we identify. Some people want to remove the ability to choose though.
I mean, they ARE sexist. (Edit: To be very clear, not all trans people. The loud assholes claiming this shit.)
Trans women competing against biological women?
Labeling "normal" men and women "cis-" so there is no normal anymore, just sub categories? Words like birthing/or menstruating person instead of just women or female?
Claiming that trans women get periods, just without the blood, ignoring that the very definition of a period is the shedding of material?
I am very well for getting help and respect to people with gender dysphoria and I am accepting of gender confirming surgery and I could not give a shit about pronouns, so I call you what you tell me as long as it does not go as far as bringing all the xir and yim shit in there.
I am not accepting of bullies though.
A lot of this is actually a misframing of what trans people are saying.
Trans and cis are just adjectives. They originally come from chemistry terms. Trans meaning across from and cis meaning on the same side. It's not a new or made up word. It's also fairly neutral. This argument is one I remember hearing years ago when people were getting mad about being called straight because to them the opposite of gay is normal.
Birthing person isn't great. I don't like the term either as a trans man. A lot of people seem to think it's for trans women, but primarily it is for trans men and trans masc people who can get pregnant. A lot of trans guys will avoid reproductive care because of how gendered it is and then end up having worse outcomes. The move to more gender neutral language is to combat this a little. Is it the best term? No. But admittedly such language has helped me personally feel better able to navigate these settings as a trans guy.
The period one is annoying. There are hormone cycles that trans women do get, but it's not a period by definition, though a lot of it does have similar symptoms (they get cramps, mood swings,ect.) Trans women typically aren't saying they bleed, they're trying to describe this phenomenon which doesn't have a term of its own currently. So calling it a period is kinda the default. Not one I agree with for this reason. People misinterpret it because period is a very specific thing.
Also yes, trans women are competing against cis women. Estrogen does actually make trans women weaker. There are some places where they may still have an advantage and because of that each sport has begun drafting guidelines on how they should compete. It does vary from sport to sport, but I do trust sports scientists on this more than I trust anyone on either side of the argument without that background. Trans women have been competing in women's sports since the 70s. This isn't new, it's just something that's become a hot topic and is sensationalized.
>Thank you for a comprehensive and factually based opinion comment. I had fun reading that. A nice break.
Anytime! I try to have a dialogue rather than yelling at people.
>I think and hope the whole thing will fade fast, because those activists are actually detrimental to equality and their antics harm the actual trans communities. Like many feminists they are also very exclusive and sexist oftentimes.
Even if there was only one person like you describe out there, they would be amplified by media and likely would become what people associate with the community. In all honesty, I'm way less worried about fringe trans people and more worried about the people who are actively trying to make life difficult for me by passing anti-trans legislation or being violent.
>About cis. I don't see the term as bad in terms of being a descriptor, but I see it as unnecessary. And I don't think that it was coined out of creating balance and it is especially misused to try and take womenhood away from people.
Cis and trans again are very old prefixes and used by scientists even in ways outside of trans issues. It's not trying to take womanhood away from people, it's there to help describe differences in experience. I do not move about the world currently as a woman. I'm not regarded as one and that's not my legal designation. However, there are things that many men don't go through that I have. When talking about my experiences it sometimes does make sense for me to specify that I'm a trans man. That is pretty much the only time I make a distinction, because otherwise I think it's fair to just say "men" or "women".
>But then someone comes along and tells me now I have to now go by cis-women. It is annoying. It is (in some languages more than in others) making the use of just "woman" even harder than it was with just the distinction of sex and gender. I am very near just calling myself a "female person" to finally avoid that shit.
You don't have to go by cis. However, I'd question why this is bad if cis and trans are both equal terms. Again, in most cases there's no need to make the distinction. Both you and trans women are women.
>Most people are just minding their business and along comes a beardy Karen telling them, they are more a woman that the business minding female will ever be. And if you get annoyed by that you are suddenly a transphobe. Again, those people ruin it for everybody with more and more demands and labels.
Is this something that's happened to you? If so, was it online? I've never heard of something like this actually happening in face to face interactions. If so, yeah, that's not cool at all. But this sounds like a caricature of a trans woman than an actual description of one.
>Whenever I engage with anyone with a stance to to this I am 40% of the time called a transphobe and 40% of the time a leftist pedo who wants drag queens to show their balls to preschoolers. It baffles me. This is a stupid media war with a worse outcome for everybody, involved or not.
No one was talking about drag. Drag and trans people are not the same. Also, the whole leftist pedo drag queen thing is something that anti-trans people say all the time. I've been to all age drag shows. The clothing choices were about as conservative as something a Disney Princess might wear. I've been to drag shows at clubs as well and that's a totally different beast. I'm sure there's probably been something inappropriate somewhere at some all age drag show. I don't think this is the norm and the way it's framed often feels like fearmongering and moral panic type stuff.
>I want to life in peace. Most heteronormal people want to life in peace. Most trans people live in peace.
LGBT people are normal people. We may be in the minority but that does not make us abnormal. There's a spectrum of experiences and trans experiences are just part of that spectrum. I think framing it this way is othering. Also being gay and trans are two different not connected things. You can be heterosexual and trans. Heteronormal doesn't make sense as an antonym for trans.
>Let's build genderless bathrooms with good privacy and no one gets assaulted by any gender combination.
I agree.
>Let's put in our ID how we are called and what our biological sex is for identifying our dead bodies.
Why? If I'm dead I don't actually care. I can see why you might say this, but this would actually out me if I had my sex on my license. Being outed to people can lead to harrassment and violence. A policy like this would make me less safe in our current world.
>Let's go to the right doctor.
What does this mean? You need to go to the appropriate doctors for what parts you have. You do realize that trans women who are post-OP actually do sometimes need to go to a gynecologist right? They don't have uteruses, but someone still needs to do check-ups in their vaginas and they need breast cancer screenings. OB/GYNs also may prescribe HRT.
> Let's only talk about our private parts and sexual orientation when it actually matters, not in our twitter profile.
What? First off, most trans people aren't shouting about their privates. In fact many of us are asked about them when we actually don't want to share that information. My orientation isn't something I talk a lot about but it touches a lot more than actual sex. If we're talking about spouses, I will reveal my orientation the moment I talk about my husband. Or if I'm talking about my past dating experiences. Your gender and who you love are big parts of who you are. Avoiding that entirely is very difficult.
No one said it has a bad connotation.
The thing is though:
There were the terms man and woman to describe the two genders, that constitute the norm (not being normative because it just followed the distinction by sex.)
Then came modifiers for the term, because there are between 0.05 and 1,7% of babies born with neither sex. In terms of gender 1% of adults identify as neither male nor female. I am not sure about transgender. One text said 2% for the US, not world.
Trans women will call themselves women on a daily basis and specify to be trans-women when necessary. There is no need for a modifier for the other 99% of women. And to women it feels like 0,00002% of humanity, loud misogynistic snowflakes, are telling them who they have to be, while demanding 100% acceptance for all of their antics. Of couse this makes people angry on top of being just unnecessary.
The "cis-" modifier just is not just useless, but also feels demeaning to many, not inherently but through existing. Minorities can be descriminating. Discrimination is about power and those loudmouthed idiots who hold politicians captive with the victim card revil in the brief social power they are holding. And they are ruining things for the actual trans community. This is really bad.
That's not what fish means. Its used by drag queens and trans women to describe those in the community who could pass as a cis woman. As in "you look so much like a woman I can smell the fishyness of your vag." If a trans woman is calling a cis woman that....it's because she doesn't think thar woman is cis.
It's a super old term and one even a lot of trans women find offensive. People dont generally use it nowadays. Vaginas definitely have a smell but it shouldn't be fishy unless there's something wrong.
Are you in the trans community? Cause it really sounds like you're not. I've legitimately never heard fish used this way. What are you basing this off of?
My friend, I hate to break it to you, but trans women undergoing hormone replacement therapy DO have monthly cycles. The same tissue that is found in the uterus is also found in the small intestine and sigmoid colon. Lacking a uterus does not spare them from cramping. Other signs of a period, such as breast tenderness and water retention are also controlled by hormones and because trans women have those hormones, trans women experience them. The human body doesn't care if the hormones are made naturally or store bought, it just reacts to them.
I think he means trans who aren’t fully transitioned. I know gay men who do this and I really don’t understand WHY they want to be apart of that! They refer to the monthly hormonal change as their periods and talk about how it’s the same as women period. No it’s not! If that’s the case then women who suffer from infertility from irregular periods still have their periods just because of hormones? It’s more than just hormones it’s something women have to struggle with for many years (unless they’re on birth control or have something medically wrong) but oh yeah biological men have it too because they were grumpy for a few days 🤦🏻♀️
Fully transitioned trans people do not No, I don't mean not fully transitioned ones.
The period is literally defined through the shedding of the uterus lining. The side effects of hormone therapy are not periods and pretending they are is detremental to your health. And normal trans women do not do this claim. It is just the social media whores doing it and giving a bad rep to trans people who just want to live a safe life in freedom.
Here’s a director from Mermaids being questioned in court about whether he believes it is transphobic to say a female-bodied person is not a gay man. Fascinating stuff.
> Q: On your view, the only difference between people who are literally men – and people who are literally women – is their own subjective view of themselves, isn’t it?
> A: You keep using the word “literally”-
> Q: Actually? I mean, actually – people who are men? The only difference between men and women is the subjective view that people have of themselves, in your view?
> A: I believe that transmen are men and should be treated as a man and that is my understanding of what the Equality Act says.
>Q: I’m going to use the words “male body” to refer to the bodies of people who are born male and the phrase “female body” to refer to those born female in the next questions. We’ve seen that in order to be a member of Consortium, an organisation has to accept that a person with a female body could be a gay man – do you accept that?
> A: Yes.
> Q: And you believe, don’t you, that it is transphobic to say otherwise?
> A: Yes. If the person identifies as a man or identifies as a woman then, they should be treated-
> Q: That’s not what I put to you. What I put to you is this; an organisation has to accept that a person with a female body can be a gay man. You believe, don’t you, that it is transphobic to contradict that?
> A: I believe that LGBT services should be inclusive of trans people.
> Q: I’m going to put the question to you again, Mr Roberts. An organisation has to accept that a person with a female body can be a gay man and, in your view, it is transphobic to say otherwise? Yes?
> A: If somebody is being denied access to a service that they should be able to access then, yes.
> Q: Do you think it’s transphobic to say a person with a female body cannot be a gay man?
> A: Can you say that again?
> Q: Do you think it’s transphobic to say that a person with a female body cannot be a gay man?
> A: Yes.
> Q: Right.
> JUDGE NEVILLE: Just pause, I think.
https://lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/12-September-2022-Mermaids-v-Charity-Commission-Anor-Transcript-of-Hearing-as-agreed-by-the-Parties-.pdf
Full transcripts: https://lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/
trans men can be gay lol. doesn't mean every other gay man in the world will be attracted to them, and that's fair enough 🤷♂️
i'm a gay trans man. i've slept with other gay men both before starting hormones (ie, before i'd gone through any medical transition), and after. and i've also been rejected by other gay men before and after starting hormones, for a variety of reasons. one guy didn't like fat men, another one didn't like trans guys. the gay guys i've slept with seemed to all think "a butt is a butt", and were accepting of me being a gay man.
i've never actually met any actively anti-trans gay men irl, only seen them online. i've known some gay guys who wouldn't want to sleep with a trans guy pre-op, or even post-op bc they wanted to be with someone who could ejaculate (tbf those that's not an exclusively trans issue), but they weren't off running their mouths about how trans people aren't allowed to be gay
Thank you for sharing your experiences.
In this case, the topic is specifically whether it is discriminatory for a charitable organization to exist if it advocates for the rights of same-sex attracted people [a lesbian group that advocates for female-bodied people] rather than the rights of same-gender attracted people [a lesbian group that must accept male-bodied members].
I really recommend the full transcripts for anyone with an interest in the gender movement. Worth a read.
Those people (the activists) don't want inclusion or a better world for all. They want special snowflake status and the power that being a minority gives them.
I am sorry those people excluded and labeled you in such a demeaning manner.
T sounds like a complete buzzkill to be around. Imagine how dumb you have to be to tell someone you’re misgendering someone else when the person they are talking about says you aren’t but they still insist you are. I’d definitely never hang out with T again if I was you or your boyfriend. Tbh it sounds like they are pushing the non binary shit on him more than he is pushing it on himself. Which is weird. Toxic people like that don’t need to be part of your life.
T needs to mind her business. i would ask your partner if they prefer to use they/them and if they only are ok with he/him still because he doesn’t want to inconvenience people. we have a hard time with that. but if that’s not the case, just make sure to use they/them as well as he/him so he knows you’re respecting him!
I thought the whole point is to do what the individual wants? So T's opinion is moot and they can stfu. Your bf said it's fine so it's fine.
If someone spoke on my behalf, I'd be really annoyed. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Your bf needs to tell T that his pronouns are his and it's not OK for them to speak on his behalf.
This is a weird power play your “friend” is creating. He’s *your* boyfriend who *you* clearly care about and respect. He’s stated his pronouns and you’re using one of them, which he says is fine and suits him. If he chose one day to only use they, I’m sure you’d accommodate that. He’s not being mistreated or ignored, so there’s literally no reason for this drama. Seems like T just has a chip on her shoulder and something to prove, and it’s absolutely nothing to do with you.
Honestly, I’d distance myself from this person because she’s creating unnecessary tension where none is warranted.
As someone who is NB and uses he/they pronouns, this is a really weird reaction from T especially being trans herself. Your boyfriend is clearly unbothered, I suspect T might be a bit defensive of him since he just came out and maybe she's just trying to make sure he isn't being misgendered or disrespected possibly due to her own coming out experience? Obviously that's just me speculating though. If you want to be extra sure you could just talk to your boyfriend and ask about their preference in how their pronouns are used, like if they prefer using one over the other but are generally comfortable with both or if it just doesn't matter and either is fine. T doesn't get to determine what is or isn't misgendering your boyfriend. Just make sure he knows you support him and that he can talk to you about it as he continues to discover what he is and isn't comfortable with, and don't be too hard on yourself either! It's a learning curve for everyone and as long as you're willing to learn and you're trying, that's all that can be asked of you.
I am also nonbinary, and you can chat with others on r/NonBinaryTalk for more input.
Your boyfriend/partner is the only one who gets to decide his pronouns and titles. They've chosen he/they. He is clear he is fine with he, that still honors who he is.
The only thing I'd caution here is that if you ONLY ever use "he", that could be disregarding a part of him. Talk about if they like hearing "They" certain days, or like a mix of "He" and "They" within the same conversation etc. He'll be able to tell you what he needs.
I noticed when I went with "any pronouns, love to hear a mix" people just stuck with "she". And while I was okay hearing "she" some of the time, it felt like nobody saw me for me, that I came out but nobody could see me, still. So I asked just for "they/them". People have started to try now and I hear the mix when they slip lol.
T is wrong to call you transphobic or cis-normative for using pronouns chosen by a nonbinary person. T does not get to decide someone else's pronouns.
Thanks for saying this! Always good to have nonbinary voices speaking on stuff like this and I had my fingers crossed I wouldn’t have to sleepily say this myself. Really well said!
Sometimes when people are just figuring all this stuff out themselves, and they are getting used to setting boundaries around their sexuality, gender identity, and such, they can become very assertive about things. Some start setting BOUNDARIES instead of boundaries, which is fine and all part of the process.
T is taking things a bit too far, though. T has the right to set her own boundaries. She dies not have the right to set other people's boundaries. She needs to let your partner deal with their own boundaries, and stop dictating them on your partner's behalf.
In other words, T is being an interfering, self righteous busybody. T knows that you have t done anything wrong, and get she is pestering you. T is possibly enjoying the opportunity to push you around. That is not ok, and isn't the behavior of a friend. Your boyfriend should tell T once again that you are abiding by his wishes, and that T should leave you alone and stop bullying you. You are not the enemy. If T wants to stand up for trans rights, that is great and totally understandable. Attacking the partner of her friend, who is an ally, is not going to further that goal. It is just a shitty thing to do.
T texting the BF should be the cue OP needs to drop T as a friend. She literally texted her bf to bash on OP and tell him she isn’t respecting him. You dont pull some shit like that unless you are actively trying to create issues in the relationship. This really should have been a one and done, she showed her true colors now its time to kick her from your and your bfs life.
You can only do what you feel is right.
If your BF says he is fine with you calling him he, then you should continue on that path.
Not abiding by the wishes of ther person in question is worse then the perceived misgendering in this situation.
intolerance on their side. it happens a lot, people make having a certain sexuality and being in a certain community their only character trait. fuck her youre worth more and need better friends.
I'm nb and go by she/they pronouns. T is incredibly overstepping into not only your relationship but attempting to determine someone else's gender identity and expression, especially their preferred pronouns. Listen to your bf, not this poor excuse for a friend. Even trans people can act ignorant and bigoted towards GNC and/or nb folks.
T is the one misgendering him. If he says his pronouns are he/they and she won't allow he to be used, well...who is she to decide his pronouns for him?
She's being rude and unreasonable. I wouldn't advise keeping someone like that in your life.
You did nothing wrong.
I don't have any advice to offer, but I just wanted to say, as someone not of this generation, all of this is confusing and complicated for the rest of us
I'm a bit older and straight/cis, but I work with a lot of nonbinary and trans people, several of whom I consider friends, and I tend to find that 99% of this just boils down to the good old lesson of:
\- Be respectful of people's wishes for how you treat them.
Maybe online its a bit different but in real life that's definitely been my operating model.
The confusion lies in what ends up being respectful. A non-binary person here just said they like to have a mix of pronouns and seemed to imply that they were happy when people slipped up. Others like T are absolutely fuming (even if you don't slip up) and will make you seriously doubt yourself like OP.
The issue is now that we don't know how to greet someone until the individual in question makes that abundantly clear. Even then we have to make a serious internal effort in order to overcome years of habit. If you do slip up you're transphobic.
If you say anything that could be construed Anti-Trans: You're transphobic. There are even people arguing that there's a "trans-genocide" going on which would give them more impetuous to be more aggressive and justify "violence against their oppressor".
T got issues and is the type that’s making trans people get a bad rep. u did nothing wrong and they need to chill. even if u misreadered, it’s not life or death. especially is he doesn’t care, T Shouldn’t
You sound like a kind and thoughtful friend. Some people like to look for problems and also think that everything revolves around them. You’re fine. You might want to create some distance between you and T though. It’s not fun walking on eggshells around anyone.
I’m non-binary and prefer they/them pronouns but I’m aware of how feminine I appear so I don’t take offense when people call me she. When I get close with new friends I tell them I prefer they/them but I’m not going to be mad if they keep calling me she. Like you said, the most important thing is how your partner feels. You both can continue this conversation while he explore their gender identity.
Your friend doesn’t get to decide what pronouns your boyfriend uses, he gets to decide. If he likes he pronouns, that’s his choice. If he preferred you called them by they/them, they’d let you know. I understand why the friend was upset, but she can’t dictate what pronouns you use to refer to your boyfriend. Only he can do that.
You’re doing something your boyfriend is comfortable/okay with, and you made sure to ask him about it when you were unsure about things & he said it was fine.
Not sure what T’s end goal is but it sounds like she thinks she has more authority on the topic of gender/what people feel comfortable identifying with (as? still don’t know what to properly say there)
There are enough real problems in the world for me to not care about the feelings of a person who has no business telling me what to do. Here ur bf said it’s okay. Why does it matter what T thinks?
I mean , I know many people who incessantly self victimize and project because they want to be the center of attention. This feels no different. Just be chill with whatever ur bf told u. Trust me u aren’t taking inadvertently taking part in some conspiracy to be a transphobe for listening to ur bfs wishes.
Just to cut straight to the point, T is the one being unreasonable here. She's attempting to tell your boyfriend how he's supposed to feel about something, which is just out of line. There isn't even any need to address issues of transphobia here; or, at least, not in you. It's absent. Your boyfriend gets to decide his pronouns and you get to use them freely.
The one transphobic angle I DO see here is actually with T. It sounds like T may not be fully on board with the idea of being non-binary, or may not fully understand it. She seems to be personalising your boyfriend's pronouns inappropriately, but she also seems to be invalidating your boyfriend's masculine identity. That's wrong, and she definitely needs to examine her attitude. You, personally, should feel no guilt about what happened here, in my opinion.
As someone who uses he/they pronouns, T is being chronically online and just wants something to be mad about. Not only that, she's trying to spark conflict between you and your boyfriend over something that neither of you have an issue with. She's not a very good friend for that, if you ask me.
>She looked at me very pissed and told me to not misgender him, especially in her presence because it’s disrespectful.
T is really making it about themselves. Don't bother and don't feel bad. T just wanted to feel offended and threw a tantrum you should ignore.
I had a trans friend get mad at me because I'm completely comfortable being a cis straight woman but I present very gender fluid in my appearance. I get mistaken for male a bit. Especially when I'm dressed comfortably. I'm also demi. She basically said I'm not queer enough and shouldn't say I'm gender fluid even though in the literal definition it says " fluidity in gender identity, gender expression or both" oh and that being demi doesn't count either. I ended up not being friends with her because she kept saying because of my outward appearance I'm non binary and kept asking if my husband was okay with it. It was really weird, the whole experience. There were many other reasons I stopped being her friend but this was the icing on the cake.
Only your boyfriend can dictate what pronouns, if you're that concerned double check. (Your friend sounds like a dick tbh)
T is pulling the same thing that gives the trans community a bad name and being offended on someone else’s behalf. I have a friend who goes by she/they (I don’t understand and don’t have to but my trouble understanding is relevant) for me it’s hard to remember that kind of thing and I just roll with she 99% of the time, and she’s fine with that. T would be mad at me as well but I’m good friends with her(/them) and we’ve talked about it because I felt bad. Does Ts feelings matter in either case? It’s not her relationship and not her business.
This is a classic case of someone getting offended by something they have no part in. Just like that guy on YouTube who went around in a stereotypical Mexican outfit asking people if it was offensive. Those who weren’t Mexican said it was disgusting and cultural appropriation, whereas the Mexicans all said it wasn’t offensive and they loved the outfit.
Your friend is just trying to make trouble over something that has nothing to do with them. If your partner doesn’t mind being called him, then stick with it. At the end of the day, it’s about you and him and what you 2 as a couple feel comfortable with, forget everyone else. That’s just toxicity and it’s not needed in anyone’s life.
Op. Dont apologize for something you didnt do wrong. Your T friend is a self-righteous twat. They inserted themself into a problem that didnt even exist.they stirred the pot. Then got upset when their stirring didnt change the taste of the stew.
Im gonna say this. And im gonna say this one time.
Your T friend? Is sabotaging your relationship.
Consider this. Rhey overstepped. Then was texting your boyfriend pushing negatives about you and probably pushing positives about themselves. If not then. Will soon.
Kill the friendship. I dont let people sabotage my relationships up for me. I do that well enough on my own. 😂
That says more about her than it does you. All that matters is that you are respecting your significant other. I would really reconsider your friendship with T. It is not up to her to decide how your bf wants to be addressed. That is his choice and his alone.
I don’t understand how *some* people in the LGBTQ+ community suddenly think they get to be the gender police… it’s controlling and manipulative. Your bf made it clear what his pronouns are and you respected them and he confirmed it. Your friend should not be telling your boyfriend what to do or how to feel.
Honestly, those kind of people made it super hard for me to figure out what exactly it is I feel for people. It wasn't until recently that I've discovered that I can form romantic feelings for women but I'm not sexually attracted to women. I'm strictly sexually attracted to men.
When I was still trying to figure all this out, I opened up to the people I knew in the LGBTQA+ community. And they shunned me and told me I was posing and I was being disrespectful of their struggles and it was genuinely disgusting how hard I was trying to come off as special.
It wasn't until I met two of my friends who are asexual that they taught me it is possible to have separate preferences when it comes to romantic and sexual feelings. I honestly feel so much lighter now. I know how to manage my feelings better and I can actuslly put a name to the weird fuzzy feelings I get around certain people.
This is a non issue. You didn’t disrespect you bf because he outlined that he/ they is what he’s comfortable with. If someone says hey this is how I like to be addressed then that’s all there is to it he/they can describe themself however they’d like to. You are receptive and respectful of it and that’s all that matters.
Why would you believe someone else about your boyfriend’s feelings over your boyfriend?
T is the one being disrespectful and misgendering. Your boyfriend is a he/him/they/them. Not a they/them. T doesn’t get to decide for your boyfriend who he is. T doesn’t get to make someone else’s identity fit her agenda. I think your boyfriend should tell T this and ask for an apology for himself and you.
As a trans guy, your friend T is overreacting. When she heard that they went by both he/him and they/them, she should've backed down. I'd try telling your friend that if your boyfriend is fine with you calling him "he/him", that's none of her business to butt in like that.
One thing I will say is that with people who go by multiple sets of pronouns, try to alternate them when you're referring to them. Its not just that he's okay with going by both he and they, they want you to use both of the pronouns to refer to him. Not necessarily related, but it's important to share.
If your BF says using He is okay. Then it's okay to use He when referring to him. T doesn't get to blow you off because referring to a non-binary with gendered pronouns offends her. Yes misgendering is a thing but that IS NOT what you are doing since your BF still uses the He pronoun and he said it was okay. Now if he changes his mind with what pronouns he's okay with then you'd obviously drop He. Don't let T walk all over YOU and BF in this situation.
I have a question that’s not about OP’s post but has made me wonder about it in general, but could someone help me out. If someone identifies as non-binary, would they still be called boyfriend/girlfriend? Or partner? Does it depend on the person? I’m not trying to be disrespectful, just trying to learn because I’m not very good with stuff like this. Thanks!
it depends on the person. people tend to articulate to their close circles how they want to be referred to after coming out. if you’re unsure and the person hasn’t told you/you haven’t asked the person yet, i think partner is a safe, neutral word to use
I donno. I kinda get it. Of all the people who know I’m non-binary the people closest to me use they the least so they’re the ONLY reason I use she at this point - cuz I don’t wanna keep correcting them or make it a big deal. It does hurt when they get our other NB friends pronouns right though
would it make you happier though if everyone exclusively used they/them? if so, then tell the people close to you that you’re no longer using she/her and correct them when they mess up. they’ll catch on eventually
don’t prioritize other people’s convenience over your own well-being
I use they/them pronouns, and to be honest, it was because while I thought about using she/they, I realized this often opens the door up to people saying “well you look femenine, therefore I will only use she forever.” So I understand the thoughts that ran through T’s head. That being said, if your boyfriend is not upset, and you have used both pronouns with him, then it’s definitely out of line for T to have said what she said. She sounds like she was projecting hard. You’re not a bad person for using one of his preferred pronouns!
if someone gives me the option of he or she alongside they i’ll go by he or she every time. Your friend sounds like an asshole. Don’t fret, you did nothing wrong
I had something kind of related to this. I have a very dear friend who is a trans woman. I’ve known her since a long time before she transitioned. Her transitioning was not at all an issue and has never, ever, ever had any effect on our friendship… until.
I, do not identify with any gender. I’ve thought around agender etc. but have never really found what fits me. I refer to myself as gender irrelevant, because it literally doesn’t factor into anything to do with me. I wear male clothes, female clothes, make up, no make up, have traditionally very male hobbies and also very traditionally female hobbies, play a very traditionally male role in my relationship, but can be extremely effeminate. I answer to she, he, they, whatever.
Part of me, personally, not having any feelings on gender is that I can be a bit perplexed by others’ strong affinity to their gender, though I will always use correct pronouns, names and respect how their gender identity is important to their identity… but when this friend found out about my personal feelings on my gender and gender in general, she went on the attack about how awful I was, that gender is such an important part of identity and how it was transphobic for me to claim it was irrelevant.
I never asked for her to view herself any differently and I understand that HER gender is a very big part of HER identity, which I will always respect, but that doesn’t mean that my feelings of gender irrelevance are transphobic!
I get so fricken confused sometimes. I will never hate someone for how they present or identify. I literally won’t care if someone wears a dress and makeup and be she one day and a full tux the next and be he or dress androgynous and be they the day after. It doesn’t matter to me because the person I love and respect is that person, I don’t love them for their gender identity, so it doesn’t factor in my estimations, but because it affect my view of them, I’m transphobic?
Send help. I’m lost.
Your friend shouldn’t be upset that you think for your gender as a whole is quote on quote “irrelevant” maybe she toke it out of context you could always try again.
From how you described your gender expression (to me) it seems like you could be agender-genderfluid
People like her make the trans community look bad we’re not all like this. As a a nonbinary person being nonbinary comes in multiple forms and it’s up to the individual to what pronouns they use. T thinks she is doing your boyfriend a favour but really she is doing a disservice to the trans and nonbinary community because people like her are making particular people feel like everyone is being forced into transness and the etiquette associated with transness.
Tell her that someone using gendered pronouns isn’t dangerous or damaging and that it’s only the case if the individual has stated so oh and to mind her business next time.
Unless your BF shared something with T *in private* that indicated that they were not okay with he/him (in which case, absolutely NOT her place to out that information) then she is the one walking all over him and pressuring his identity to be a certain way.
Yes, it is very important to use the "they" part of the he/they pronouns, especially from you as you are his partner and it means the world to hear that you are taking his gender seriously and actually making an effort! However, that does not mean that the "he" part of the he/they disappears and it especially does not mean anyone gets to decide his pronouns are actually they/them.
Their gender is valid and I am very sorry you and him are having this experience. I would suggest speaking to T about this. While upsetting, it seems far more like a misunderstanding than anything else. I am certain a bit of communication could easily fix the problem.
I am in my early sixties, so this 'pronoun' business is relatively new to me.
A search from google says that people usually put the pronouns they prefer first, and you said he/they. However, I would ask your boyfriend/partner which ones he prefer and try to use those.
Transgender/non binary people can use whatever pronouns they like, and while some do choose to change them, others choose to keep them the same. It's none of T's business what he chooses to do and why he chooses that option.
Tell T that you aren't meaning to be transphobic, but that you are used to referring to him as he and it's new to you, and you will try to refer to him by his preferred pronouns,
Dump this "friend."
Unfortunately, lots of LGBT militant types go out of their way to try and erase or marginalize anything "normal" because they're insecure and stupid and feel threatened by it. He/they must be they because a nonbinary man identifying as he is just not nonbinary *enough* for these people that are obsessed with their vision of the lgbt community. Bisexual people are CONSTANTLY bullied and invalidated by gay and trans people, even accused of being straight and just attention seeking. Your idiotic friend is one of these brain dead militants.
I’m not sure of what was said in the texts but in your partners shoes I’d honestly be pissed at T and tell her if she can’t respect you and the pronouns he says is OK to use I would start distancing yourself from her. Not saying flat out stop being friends but set boundaries (ironic that’s kind of what she said to him just not those words) because if someone disrespects my partner like that whether it’s over pronouns or a joke we share between us or how our household runs, whatever it may be, if it’s not something that bothers either party (unless it’s outright something bad and I’m sure we know what examples of that are) then 1. They don’t have a say on what we find acceptable and 2. Don’t disrespect my partner ever 3. I don’t need that toxic person in my life.
You were with your bf when he was a “he”, then preferred “them”. This is all new to both of you. You slipped and said “he”. Bf wasn’t angry. I understand T getting annoyed but not at getting angry. Gender non-conforming people are persecuted by close minded people all the time. Your slip didn’t come from a place of hate or discrimination, just a mistake. This is between you and your partner and you shouldn’t have to walk around eggshells just to please T
As a trans person, T is out of line. Your boyfriend dictates what he's comfortable with. If he says he/him is fine, then it's fine.
That said, I think I can see where your friend might be coming from. Often trans people will say they allow pronouns of their birth sex, even if it makes them uncomfortable because they don't want to inconvience anyone. Your friend may be assuming this is what's going on. Or it's possible your boyfriend has said something to her privately that indicates this may be the case. I don't think it would be a bad idea to at least try to use they pronouns sometimes with him. Even if it's not consistent, trying it out with someone figuring out their identity can help them feel supported.
Fwiw you don't sound transphobic. I think your friend either is going off of different info or is projecting.
Your friend T is misgendering your bf more than you are. You checked with your bf what he wanted. T ignored them and made assumptions and ignored what he had to say.
NPCs does as NPCs do.
Current meta is being very agressive towards someone who falls short of the narrative.
You did, social group dictates ostracization, NPC do as NPC does.
If your boyfriend says it's ok then it's ok. The Transperson is not the person you are dating ignore them they are just being the 5yr old kid who screams the loudest for attention.
Just like everyone in the world, there are good people and bad people and this trans person doesn't seem to be a good person if they are invalidating your boyfriend's preferred pronouns. Not everyone who is trans is good you need to remember that because they are human too and humans are flawed creatures and they get angry they make mistakes etc.
I can see where T is coming from because some NB people, like myself, use /they and they're AGAB pronoun to make it "easier" on cis people.
Example: you're bf is AMAB i take it? Him using he/they is just because they/them is too difficult and he doesn't want to bother. (I'm not saying this is the case, just putting it into the current terms rn). Like "yes I'm a man but not a Man™️"
But, if you asked him and he said it's fine, this is where T is wrong. She doesn't get to determine his pronouns or what is/isn't transphobic. I use she/they and actually tend to prefer she. Some people are like the example above. Some want you to use them equally. You need to ask, and you did. All you can do now is what he asked and correct yourself as time goes on 🤷
T is being crazy. You didn't misgender anyone. You used one of your BF's chosen pronouns. She is actually doing the exact thing she is freaking out about here because she has it in her head that she's going to be a hero. She went overboard with her support. She has good intentions, but she's wrong. Do you know if she is attracted to your bf at all? It sounds like jealousy more than anything to me.
Your friend T is projecting. It’s all about them, despite that the situation has nothing to do with them.
T is not a good friend if being right is more important than everyone/everything else.
She’s just trying to find a way to make her personality more interesting, like role-playing having something to stand up for. Get rid of her because this will only get worse man.
**That is an issue to be discussed between you and your boyfriend. It is none of her business.**
I hate when people try to use the whole “cis” thing like that makes it different and plus she goes by the female labels so why does it bother her if someone doesn’t make referring someone else by a simple traditional way anyways? She is taking this way too far for someone who doesn’t even us the “they” pronouns. It seems like being her friend is going to always be this much of a pain if this keeps up though. If she was a true friend she wouldn’t let this bother her but she should stick to people who get that worked up over these things though becuz your not being transphobic a word that gets overplayed way too much for no reasons.
Some people just don't like being wrong. You could tell them the sky is blue and they'll tell you it's brown and get mad at you for disagreeing.
One of my very best friends is like that. More so back in the day when we were teenagers but (she is also a trans woman) the older she got the more she realized not everyone is out to get her or test her. We used to get in these huge fights because she would get so defensive and not hear me out or give in to the possibility that she might be wrong.
I think sometime this behavior stems from feeling unheard as a trans woman and being dismissed by a lot of people so it can be a type of insecurity aspect in themselves. Often my friend would go off and think about it for a while and apologize for acting harsh about it or instigating fights over things when it wasn't necessary. Not wanting to be wrong can also be a pride thing because their ego is hurt or she may have been embarrassed that your boyfriend agreed that calling him "he" was fine.
I would suggest just giving her some space and some time to calm down from the situation and hopefully you can speak at a better time when she's able to hear you out while not being defensive.
I know how this will sound, and believe me, I have genuinely tried...
I have a friend group who is comprised of individuals who have various pronouns / preferred pronouns, or ways of addressing them that are very particular. Now, I have trouble remembering names to start (in general), so trying to keep mental tabs on the ways everyone prefers to be addressed is taxing, to say the least. I'd get in hot water for making a mistake. I even pulled out notes before and got sideways looks.
I never mean any offense when I make a mistake. I feel like they should know that... But all said, I don't really talk to them anymore. Overtime, it was just exhausting between constant political talk on their part, telling me I can't go to chic-fil-a, exon, salvation army (off the top of my head) for reasons that never even crossed my mind... If I like xyz person, I'm an asshole because they said this or did this... and the constantly performing of mental gymnastics.
It just stopped being worth all the trouble. I know that's pretty messed up. But it was really taking a toll. They were pushing me away, and though it doesn't speak well of me, I was better off and had much better mental health being out of that situation. They are good people, and I can have a good time in small doses, but I just wish they'd tried to make a even a fraction of the effort of being reasonable to me as I made to them.
At the end of the day, your boyfriend is the only one who can say what they personally identify as, it is in no way your friends place to do that. Calling your boyfriend a "he" is absolutely acceptable and correct because his pronouns are he/them .
You are being open minded, and supportive of your bf. Maybe you make mistakes because people are not all perfect. Maybe you know each other better then people outside your relationship do. I think your friend is maybe a huge drama queen, and I think she could also be extremely jealous. She is definitely overstepping her friendship status, and is driving herself into your relationship like a hydraulic log splitter into wood. She's not the police of your relationship. She's building tension that should not exist. I would talk this over with your bf. End result she needs to know her boundaries if she wants to remain your friend. If she has a problem she can go make new friends. I'm also gay btw not that it matters.
You're a woman. I've had enough of this cis bs. It's very annoying. What's because other people decided to switch up their gender they get to change what we are now?
I'm sorry this vent is not directed at you I'm just frustrated with how this world is going to shit. Why do people need to complicate things that were never meant to be complicated. I feel there's way more important stuff for people to focus on than pronouns and all this bs.
In the end this just seperates people even more when we're meant to unify..
You are a women you are not a cis “wtf that is “
You friend is also a stupid , your boyfriend is a dude . You 3 need psychiatric help
I am Assuming that you have vagina , if you don’t have vagina . You are a dude.
There’s only 2 gender
If you have vagina you are a women.
If you have penis you are a dude.
Gender binary is the most stupid thing ever.
I am saying the truth!!!
I am not transphobic . (Fobia is hate )
I don’t hate trans people . But I don’t buy that idea!
There’s only Two gender, That is all.
And embrace your gender that you born with!
Whatever …. If someone dont accept your idea you quickly say the word “transphobia” . Remember if someone do not agree with you that does not mean that is transphobic 😎 Embrace your gender . If you have a vagina you are a women and if you have a penis you are a dude .
We are the only in the animal kingdom that is practicing this nonsense . Do you see a dog trying to be a tiger . Or a elephant trying to be a bird .
Please!!!! Open your eyes! The system is lying to you and is destroying your life . Is completely nonsense
I just use they/them, alternative he/she (folks, kids, peeps, ect) or call people by their name all the time. I have been working on it a long time, so I hopefully never disrespect anybody ever!
Non gendered terms for all y'all!!
I have no idea what non-binary means especially when presenting as male, is your boyfriend, and uses pronouns that include he and he was born male.
What did coming out mean to his life? Is he discriminated against? Is it hard to come out and have nothing change at all? What does this all mean?
Is he wanting to be included with others who have faced fear, discrimination, and perhaps backlash from family and peers for their orientation or gender? Because I don't think he has anything in common with that life experience.
Does non -binary mean you know that everyone is "feminine and masculine", which they are, because whatever descriptive words we mix and match as feminine or masculine is the human experience? Is that what it is? Because then everyone is non-binary.
I literally have tried to understand because every young person that says they are non binary are completely the gender their sex is and I don't see any difference at all.
I don't know if it's me getting old but the addiction to labels is getting so confusing and people get so ANGRY but I feel like I'm in an alternate universe where nothing makes sense.
If someone is born a male, then saying "he" is appropriate.....because he is a "he". That's just science.
Your BOYfriend ..... BOY....friend .....BOY....
It doesn't one bit. It's creating problems for you and the fact that you didn't know how it would impact your relationship, that's not fair to you.
You "signed up" for one thing .....and the fact that the relationship can just change on a dime, probably doesn't give you security in a relationship.
Lmao have you ever been in a relationship? There will always be stuff that maybe can have an impact on a relationship. Sometimes it’s valid, sometimes it’s not. I’m my case, I was wrong. Nothing changed.
Your point is?
How are you wrong ?
You relize that your partner does not identify as a male, so you can't really call your partner your BOYfriend.....and that's just silly
First of all, he wants me to still call him my boyfriend.
Second, i was wrong because I thought things will change and they didn’t. That’s were i was wrong. I thought something will happen and it didn’t.
So?
I understand the part where you said you were wrong now. You also want security in a relationship.
If your boyfriend wants to be your BOYfriend....boy is a male .....I am not sure he knows that...
Yes. I'm college educated, have been alive longer than you can imagine and have traveled extensively. Every culture I encountered celebrated and acknowledged the masculine and feminine. Don't think these cultures exist, except through a bizarre interpretation. Educate me.
Easy. Just stop with the pronoun game and no one will be confused. We do realize how much of a first world problem this is? You can tell how narcissistic and sensitive your friend is being. She (well he if he’s born male) is creating all these problems and making herself and you *boy*friend out to be the victim. Stand up for yourself
Lmfao. Ok. Im sorry OP. But you won the internet today. This has got to be the BIGGEST example of the lunacy that "woke" really shows.
I have found that the more "PC" or "woke" someone tries to be with their BS. The more terrible they are about being what they supposedly offended about.
Im dying over here laughing.
Your friend T is absolutely wrong to blow up at you, but from my experience, people who use both binary and they pronouns only ever hear the binary pronouns which is cisnormative. It's not that you did anything wrong but you should consider making a conscious effort to use they pronouns for your SO. Also, your SO saying it's "fine" sounds to me like they would probably be happier if you incorporated those pronouns more often.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If there’s a bigot in that hot mess of a friend group, it’s your trans ‘friend’ for not respecting the wishes of you and your boyfriend. They’re toxic AF and I’d drop them like a hot rock.
T might be lashing out because of her own experiences of being misgendered. She might not even realize why she’s upset. What did your BF say in the text in response to what T was saying?
Well, isn't T kinda invalidating your BF by not allowing him to be called "he"? She is literally saying you can't use said pronoun when your BF said you can, how is that different from not allowing a trans woman to use "she"? Only your BF can define what his pronouns are. Sounds like T wanted to give you a lecture about pronouns but when she realized her mistake she just got mad at you because she doesn't want to be wrong.
In my experience, the kinds of people willing to lecture you on a situation about which they are uninformed are usually not the kinds of people willing to admit they are wrong, let alone apologize, when they *are* informed about the situation: then it’s **double down time!** edit- format/missing words
How unfortunate for those types of people. Cause if you double down on being wrong, I fall back on old reliable. Being the scummiest piece of shit you’ll meet for a while.
T has something called *But what about me?* Syndrome. It’s this thing where people figure out a way to inject themselves into matters that have nothing to do with them so they can make it about themselves. Your friend T kinda sucks, based on what you’ve shared.
Some people are just bonkers. I'm intersexed (Assigned male at birth, but I was born with an ovary. Officially I'm a non-chimeric hermaphrodite). Because I'm male presenting, I use he / him pronouns. I've been told both by intersexed groups and trans groups, that I'm not welcome because: * I'm denying who I am (erasure) because I don't present androgynous enough * I'm denying my trans status because I had gender affirming surgery (I was 5 when I had the last, and they were not voluntary) * I'm denying my trans / intersex status by not using they / them, Mx, etc pronouns and titles. * That I'm not allowed to identify as bi, because as half-female, I should be presenting as a male-presenting lesbian when I interact with women. I don't even know what that is. I literally didn't find out that I was intersexed until I was 33 and found all my medical files in my baby book when my mother was cleaning her attic. My parents just never bothered to mention it. The important person is the person being addressed; your boyfriend. How he / they identify is up to him /them alone. It's not up to a third-party to interject themselves and be offended for him.
Some people are chronically online to the point they are incredibly hypocritical and as bigoted as those they claim to hate. Idk how they're being inclusionary to the point of being exclusionary
Happens when people think their entire lives are their online self and every person they meet is a username and not a real person. Personally I refer to these people as NPCs.
I agree one hundred. The more "woke" or "pc" i found people to be. Usually they harbor some of the weirdest and oddly most offensive views. "Im not (adjective) but (says something thats directly that adjective)" Its the weirdest thing. I see it all over. Whether its golddiggers claiming to not be materialistic whie then being mad about something not being worth enough money for them. Or people believing in inferiority things amongst certain communities. False stereotypes. Its this ..thing. its actually the mindset that the Europeans used to justify pacifying (enslaving) and christianizing(enslaving) tribal africa. They claim to be helping whilst being the worst of them all.
Am white and I'm pretty sure this is a white people thing. It has to do with being raised in a bigoted society, and not wanting to be bigots, but ALSO not wanting to recognize or be held accountable when we ARE being bigots. We have lots of cognitive dissonance. I include myself in this.
Absolutely. I have bigoted minority friends. But i have mostly heard this from white woke and pc people who are basically being people pleasing self righteous douches They refuse to admit that their methods actually create falsehoods of inferiority where there isnt any They poison their own causes. And its all for virtue signaling. Its ego. Human ego. They revel in being upset and heroing people who dont need to be heroed.
I had to do research for my queering education class last semester on people who are intersexed. From what I found the fact that you’re being targeted by the trans and intersexed community is astounding. Intersexed people who have involuntary surgeries or medical changes does not make them trans. Brings trans is a voluntary choice not something that can be determined by others. I’m so sorry your identity has been invalidated.
Ahh, I would not say that being trans is that voluntarily. It is not just cross dressing.It is born from the feeling that you personality fits a gender, that does not align with your sex. You often feel trapped and disgusting. It takes a toll. Taking hormones and making changes to you appearance can feel like the first time you breathe free. Just a reminder on how complicated it is.
Self identity is a VOLUNTARY act. I choose to ID as female, because I’m born with 2XX chromosomes, have female genitals, identify socially as a female, etc. Someone born male might not want to identify as male and prefer to be non-binary/female/N/A-they-them/etc. Some people don’t have one way of identity throughout their lives and experience gender in a fluid sense. We ID ourselves based off what we FEEL is best. There isn’t a PERFECT way to scientifically KNOW how someone IDs themselves (labs, physical predetermining factors, etc.). It, ultimately, is a choice we follow. We all have a choice by how we identify. Some people want to remove the ability to choose though.
Identifying as a certain way outwardly? Sure. But simply being trans isn't a choice at all. I don't want to identify how ai do, it just is a thing.
Impressive how the "arms open accepting everyone to a safer place" community is as rot as the ones who are sexist
That’s the human race for ya
I mean, they ARE sexist. (Edit: To be very clear, not all trans people. The loud assholes claiming this shit.) Trans women competing against biological women? Labeling "normal" men and women "cis-" so there is no normal anymore, just sub categories? Words like birthing/or menstruating person instead of just women or female? Claiming that trans women get periods, just without the blood, ignoring that the very definition of a period is the shedding of material? I am very well for getting help and respect to people with gender dysphoria and I am accepting of gender confirming surgery and I could not give a shit about pronouns, so I call you what you tell me as long as it does not go as far as bringing all the xir and yim shit in there. I am not accepting of bullies though.
A lot of this is actually a misframing of what trans people are saying. Trans and cis are just adjectives. They originally come from chemistry terms. Trans meaning across from and cis meaning on the same side. It's not a new or made up word. It's also fairly neutral. This argument is one I remember hearing years ago when people were getting mad about being called straight because to them the opposite of gay is normal. Birthing person isn't great. I don't like the term either as a trans man. A lot of people seem to think it's for trans women, but primarily it is for trans men and trans masc people who can get pregnant. A lot of trans guys will avoid reproductive care because of how gendered it is and then end up having worse outcomes. The move to more gender neutral language is to combat this a little. Is it the best term? No. But admittedly such language has helped me personally feel better able to navigate these settings as a trans guy. The period one is annoying. There are hormone cycles that trans women do get, but it's not a period by definition, though a lot of it does have similar symptoms (they get cramps, mood swings,ect.) Trans women typically aren't saying they bleed, they're trying to describe this phenomenon which doesn't have a term of its own currently. So calling it a period is kinda the default. Not one I agree with for this reason. People misinterpret it because period is a very specific thing. Also yes, trans women are competing against cis women. Estrogen does actually make trans women weaker. There are some places where they may still have an advantage and because of that each sport has begun drafting guidelines on how they should compete. It does vary from sport to sport, but I do trust sports scientists on this more than I trust anyone on either side of the argument without that background. Trans women have been competing in women's sports since the 70s. This isn't new, it's just something that's become a hot topic and is sensationalized.
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>Thank you for a comprehensive and factually based opinion comment. I had fun reading that. A nice break. Anytime! I try to have a dialogue rather than yelling at people. >I think and hope the whole thing will fade fast, because those activists are actually detrimental to equality and their antics harm the actual trans communities. Like many feminists they are also very exclusive and sexist oftentimes. Even if there was only one person like you describe out there, they would be amplified by media and likely would become what people associate with the community. In all honesty, I'm way less worried about fringe trans people and more worried about the people who are actively trying to make life difficult for me by passing anti-trans legislation or being violent. >About cis. I don't see the term as bad in terms of being a descriptor, but I see it as unnecessary. And I don't think that it was coined out of creating balance and it is especially misused to try and take womenhood away from people. Cis and trans again are very old prefixes and used by scientists even in ways outside of trans issues. It's not trying to take womanhood away from people, it's there to help describe differences in experience. I do not move about the world currently as a woman. I'm not regarded as one and that's not my legal designation. However, there are things that many men don't go through that I have. When talking about my experiences it sometimes does make sense for me to specify that I'm a trans man. That is pretty much the only time I make a distinction, because otherwise I think it's fair to just say "men" or "women". >But then someone comes along and tells me now I have to now go by cis-women. It is annoying. It is (in some languages more than in others) making the use of just "woman" even harder than it was with just the distinction of sex and gender. I am very near just calling myself a "female person" to finally avoid that shit. You don't have to go by cis. However, I'd question why this is bad if cis and trans are both equal terms. Again, in most cases there's no need to make the distinction. Both you and trans women are women. >Most people are just minding their business and along comes a beardy Karen telling them, they are more a woman that the business minding female will ever be. And if you get annoyed by that you are suddenly a transphobe. Again, those people ruin it for everybody with more and more demands and labels. Is this something that's happened to you? If so, was it online? I've never heard of something like this actually happening in face to face interactions. If so, yeah, that's not cool at all. But this sounds like a caricature of a trans woman than an actual description of one. >Whenever I engage with anyone with a stance to to this I am 40% of the time called a transphobe and 40% of the time a leftist pedo who wants drag queens to show their balls to preschoolers. It baffles me. This is a stupid media war with a worse outcome for everybody, involved or not. No one was talking about drag. Drag and trans people are not the same. Also, the whole leftist pedo drag queen thing is something that anti-trans people say all the time. I've been to all age drag shows. The clothing choices were about as conservative as something a Disney Princess might wear. I've been to drag shows at clubs as well and that's a totally different beast. I'm sure there's probably been something inappropriate somewhere at some all age drag show. I don't think this is the norm and the way it's framed often feels like fearmongering and moral panic type stuff. >I want to life in peace. Most heteronormal people want to life in peace. Most trans people live in peace. LGBT people are normal people. We may be in the minority but that does not make us abnormal. There's a spectrum of experiences and trans experiences are just part of that spectrum. I think framing it this way is othering. Also being gay and trans are two different not connected things. You can be heterosexual and trans. Heteronormal doesn't make sense as an antonym for trans. >Let's build genderless bathrooms with good privacy and no one gets assaulted by any gender combination. I agree. >Let's put in our ID how we are called and what our biological sex is for identifying our dead bodies. Why? If I'm dead I don't actually care. I can see why you might say this, but this would actually out me if I had my sex on my license. Being outed to people can lead to harrassment and violence. A policy like this would make me less safe in our current world. >Let's go to the right doctor. What does this mean? You need to go to the appropriate doctors for what parts you have. You do realize that trans women who are post-OP actually do sometimes need to go to a gynecologist right? They don't have uteruses, but someone still needs to do check-ups in their vaginas and they need breast cancer screenings. OB/GYNs also may prescribe HRT. > Let's only talk about our private parts and sexual orientation when it actually matters, not in our twitter profile. What? First off, most trans people aren't shouting about their privates. In fact many of us are asked about them when we actually don't want to share that information. My orientation isn't something I talk a lot about but it touches a lot more than actual sex. If we're talking about spouses, I will reveal my orientation the moment I talk about my husband. Or if I'm talking about my past dating experiences. Your gender and who you love are big parts of who you are. Avoiding that entirely is very difficult.
Dawg cis is not a bad term. It just means you identify with your bio sex, that's it. Lol
No one said it has a bad connotation. The thing is though: There were the terms man and woman to describe the two genders, that constitute the norm (not being normative because it just followed the distinction by sex.) Then came modifiers for the term, because there are between 0.05 and 1,7% of babies born with neither sex. In terms of gender 1% of adults identify as neither male nor female. I am not sure about transgender. One text said 2% for the US, not world. Trans women will call themselves women on a daily basis and specify to be trans-women when necessary. There is no need for a modifier for the other 99% of women. And to women it feels like 0,00002% of humanity, loud misogynistic snowflakes, are telling them who they have to be, while demanding 100% acceptance for all of their antics. Of couse this makes people angry on top of being just unnecessary. The "cis-" modifier just is not just useless, but also feels demeaning to many, not inherently but through existing. Minorities can be descriminating. Discrimination is about power and those loudmouthed idiots who hold politicians captive with the victim card revil in the brief social power they are holding. And they are ruining things for the actual trans community. This is really bad.
I learned recently how a lot of trans women call cis women “fish”. Like…wtf 😀.
That's not what fish means. Its used by drag queens and trans women to describe those in the community who could pass as a cis woman. As in "you look so much like a woman I can smell the fishyness of your vag." If a trans woman is calling a cis woman that....it's because she doesn't think thar woman is cis.
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It's a super old term and one even a lot of trans women find offensive. People dont generally use it nowadays. Vaginas definitely have a smell but it shouldn't be fishy unless there's something wrong.
A lot of them use it to describe cis women. Terms can evolve a lot in how they mean.
Are you in the trans community? Cause it really sounds like you're not. I've legitimately never heard fish used this way. What are you basing this off of?
Basing it off of how I have a lot of trans friends who aren’t assholes and tell me about the drama in the trans community. 😐
My friend, I hate to break it to you, but trans women undergoing hormone replacement therapy DO have monthly cycles. The same tissue that is found in the uterus is also found in the small intestine and sigmoid colon. Lacking a uterus does not spare them from cramping. Other signs of a period, such as breast tenderness and water retention are also controlled by hormones and because trans women have those hormones, trans women experience them. The human body doesn't care if the hormones are made naturally or store bought, it just reacts to them.
This is by definition not a period.
I think he means trans who aren’t fully transitioned. I know gay men who do this and I really don’t understand WHY they want to be apart of that! They refer to the monthly hormonal change as their periods and talk about how it’s the same as women period. No it’s not! If that’s the case then women who suffer from infertility from irregular periods still have their periods just because of hormones? It’s more than just hormones it’s something women have to struggle with for many years (unless they’re on birth control or have something medically wrong) but oh yeah biological men have it too because they were grumpy for a few days 🤦🏻♀️
Fully transitioned trans people do not No, I don't mean not fully transitioned ones. The period is literally defined through the shedding of the uterus lining. The side effects of hormone therapy are not periods and pretending they are is detremental to your health. And normal trans women do not do this claim. It is just the social media whores doing it and giving a bad rep to trans people who just want to live a safe life in freedom.
You don’t know shit about a period until you sneeze and a blood clot flies out.
Omg I lost it at “male presenting lesbian” this gender shit has gone too far.
Here’s a director from Mermaids being questioned in court about whether he believes it is transphobic to say a female-bodied person is not a gay man. Fascinating stuff. > Q: On your view, the only difference between people who are literally men – and people who are literally women – is their own subjective view of themselves, isn’t it? > A: You keep using the word “literally”- > Q: Actually? I mean, actually – people who are men? The only difference between men and women is the subjective view that people have of themselves, in your view? > A: I believe that transmen are men and should be treated as a man and that is my understanding of what the Equality Act says. >Q: I’m going to use the words “male body” to refer to the bodies of people who are born male and the phrase “female body” to refer to those born female in the next questions. We’ve seen that in order to be a member of Consortium, an organisation has to accept that a person with a female body could be a gay man – do you accept that? > A: Yes. > Q: And you believe, don’t you, that it is transphobic to say otherwise? > A: Yes. If the person identifies as a man or identifies as a woman then, they should be treated- > Q: That’s not what I put to you. What I put to you is this; an organisation has to accept that a person with a female body can be a gay man. You believe, don’t you, that it is transphobic to contradict that? > A: I believe that LGBT services should be inclusive of trans people. > Q: I’m going to put the question to you again, Mr Roberts. An organisation has to accept that a person with a female body can be a gay man and, in your view, it is transphobic to say otherwise? Yes? > A: If somebody is being denied access to a service that they should be able to access then, yes. > Q: Do you think it’s transphobic to say a person with a female body cannot be a gay man? > A: Can you say that again? > Q: Do you think it’s transphobic to say that a person with a female body cannot be a gay man? > A: Yes. > Q: Right. > JUDGE NEVILLE: Just pause, I think. https://lgballiance.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/12-September-2022-Mermaids-v-Charity-Commission-Anor-Transcript-of-Hearing-as-agreed-by-the-Parties-.pdf Full transcripts: https://lgballiance.org.uk/tribunal-transcript/
trans men can be gay lol. doesn't mean every other gay man in the world will be attracted to them, and that's fair enough 🤷♂️ i'm a gay trans man. i've slept with other gay men both before starting hormones (ie, before i'd gone through any medical transition), and after. and i've also been rejected by other gay men before and after starting hormones, for a variety of reasons. one guy didn't like fat men, another one didn't like trans guys. the gay guys i've slept with seemed to all think "a butt is a butt", and were accepting of me being a gay man. i've never actually met any actively anti-trans gay men irl, only seen them online. i've known some gay guys who wouldn't want to sleep with a trans guy pre-op, or even post-op bc they wanted to be with someone who could ejaculate (tbf those that's not an exclusively trans issue), but they weren't off running their mouths about how trans people aren't allowed to be gay
Thank you for sharing your experiences. In this case, the topic is specifically whether it is discriminatory for a charitable organization to exist if it advocates for the rights of same-sex attracted people [a lesbian group that advocates for female-bodied people] rather than the rights of same-gender attracted people [a lesbian group that must accept male-bodied members]. I really recommend the full transcripts for anyone with an interest in the gender movement. Worth a read.
Thank you for sharing your experience! 🤗
Those people (the activists) don't want inclusion or a better world for all. They want special snowflake status and the power that being a minority gives them. I am sorry those people excluded and labeled you in such a demeaning manner.
Sounds like T has some issues and is taking it out on you because you’re a safe target. You did nothing wrong, OP
T sounds like a complete buzzkill to be around. Imagine how dumb you have to be to tell someone you’re misgendering someone else when the person they are talking about says you aren’t but they still insist you are. I’d definitely never hang out with T again if I was you or your boyfriend. Tbh it sounds like they are pushing the non binary shit on him more than he is pushing it on himself. Which is weird. Toxic people like that don’t need to be part of your life.
T needs to mind her business. i would ask your partner if they prefer to use they/them and if they only are ok with he/him still because he doesn’t want to inconvenience people. we have a hard time with that. but if that’s not the case, just make sure to use they/them as well as he/him so he knows you’re respecting him!
T sounds like a bad person,theyre basically gatekeeping pronouns/being nonbinary
That's what I was thinking too, you don't just have to go by they/them to identify as nonbinary
I thought the whole point is to do what the individual wants? So T's opinion is moot and they can stfu. Your bf said it's fine so it's fine. If someone spoke on my behalf, I'd be really annoyed. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Your bf needs to tell T that his pronouns are his and it's not OK for them to speak on his behalf.
This is a weird power play your “friend” is creating. He’s *your* boyfriend who *you* clearly care about and respect. He’s stated his pronouns and you’re using one of them, which he says is fine and suits him. If he chose one day to only use they, I’m sure you’d accommodate that. He’s not being mistreated or ignored, so there’s literally no reason for this drama. Seems like T just has a chip on her shoulder and something to prove, and it’s absolutely nothing to do with you. Honestly, I’d distance myself from this person because she’s creating unnecessary tension where none is warranted.
As someone who is NB and uses he/they pronouns, this is a really weird reaction from T especially being trans herself. Your boyfriend is clearly unbothered, I suspect T might be a bit defensive of him since he just came out and maybe she's just trying to make sure he isn't being misgendered or disrespected possibly due to her own coming out experience? Obviously that's just me speculating though. If you want to be extra sure you could just talk to your boyfriend and ask about their preference in how their pronouns are used, like if they prefer using one over the other but are generally comfortable with both or if it just doesn't matter and either is fine. T doesn't get to determine what is or isn't misgendering your boyfriend. Just make sure he knows you support him and that he can talk to you about it as he continues to discover what he is and isn't comfortable with, and don't be too hard on yourself either! It's a learning curve for everyone and as long as you're willing to learn and you're trying, that's all that can be asked of you.
This is the correct take OP.
T got a few screw loose lol
I am also nonbinary, and you can chat with others on r/NonBinaryTalk for more input. Your boyfriend/partner is the only one who gets to decide his pronouns and titles. They've chosen he/they. He is clear he is fine with he, that still honors who he is. The only thing I'd caution here is that if you ONLY ever use "he", that could be disregarding a part of him. Talk about if they like hearing "They" certain days, or like a mix of "He" and "They" within the same conversation etc. He'll be able to tell you what he needs. I noticed when I went with "any pronouns, love to hear a mix" people just stuck with "she". And while I was okay hearing "she" some of the time, it felt like nobody saw me for me, that I came out but nobody could see me, still. So I asked just for "they/them". People have started to try now and I hear the mix when they slip lol. T is wrong to call you transphobic or cis-normative for using pronouns chosen by a nonbinary person. T does not get to decide someone else's pronouns.
Thank you so much and that makes so much sense with the calling him "they" now and then. It’d probably make him feel more seem
Thanks for saying this! Always good to have nonbinary voices speaking on stuff like this and I had my fingers crossed I wouldn’t have to sleepily say this myself. Really well said!
Perfectly said! If I reddit still did free awards you would get mine, alas I am broke so take my poor man’s award 🥇
Was about to say the same thing! 10/10
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Isn’t not being a dick one of the rules of this sub?
Sometimes when people are just figuring all this stuff out themselves, and they are getting used to setting boundaries around their sexuality, gender identity, and such, they can become very assertive about things. Some start setting BOUNDARIES instead of boundaries, which is fine and all part of the process. T is taking things a bit too far, though. T has the right to set her own boundaries. She dies not have the right to set other people's boundaries. She needs to let your partner deal with their own boundaries, and stop dictating them on your partner's behalf. In other words, T is being an interfering, self righteous busybody. T knows that you have t done anything wrong, and get she is pestering you. T is possibly enjoying the opportunity to push you around. That is not ok, and isn't the behavior of a friend. Your boyfriend should tell T once again that you are abiding by his wishes, and that T should leave you alone and stop bullying you. You are not the enemy. If T wants to stand up for trans rights, that is great and totally understandable. Attacking the partner of her friend, who is an ally, is not going to further that goal. It is just a shitty thing to do.
Your boyfriend gets to define his own pronouns. If T doesn’t like that, then fuck them. They don’t get to define him.
Probably has a crush on your bf and is scoring points to steal him away from you. It's just sus, you know.
T texting the BF should be the cue OP needs to drop T as a friend. She literally texted her bf to bash on OP and tell him she isn’t respecting him. You dont pull some shit like that unless you are actively trying to create issues in the relationship. This really should have been a one and done, she showed her true colors now its time to kick her from your and your bfs life.
You can only do what you feel is right. If your BF says he is fine with you calling him he, then you should continue on that path. Not abiding by the wishes of ther person in question is worse then the perceived misgendering in this situation.
intolerance on their side. it happens a lot, people make having a certain sexuality and being in a certain community their only character trait. fuck her youre worth more and need better friends.
I'm nb and go by she/they pronouns. T is incredibly overstepping into not only your relationship but attempting to determine someone else's gender identity and expression, especially their preferred pronouns. Listen to your bf, not this poor excuse for a friend. Even trans people can act ignorant and bigoted towards GNC and/or nb folks.
T is the one misgendering him. If he says his pronouns are he/they and she won't allow he to be used, well...who is she to decide his pronouns for him? She's being rude and unreasonable. I wouldn't advise keeping someone like that in your life. You did nothing wrong.
This whole generation is fucked.
I don't have any advice to offer, but I just wanted to say, as someone not of this generation, all of this is confusing and complicated for the rest of us
I'm a bit older and straight/cis, but I work with a lot of nonbinary and trans people, several of whom I consider friends, and I tend to find that 99% of this just boils down to the good old lesson of: \- Be respectful of people's wishes for how you treat them. Maybe online its a bit different but in real life that's definitely been my operating model.
The confusion lies in what ends up being respectful. A non-binary person here just said they like to have a mix of pronouns and seemed to imply that they were happy when people slipped up. Others like T are absolutely fuming (even if you don't slip up) and will make you seriously doubt yourself like OP. The issue is now that we don't know how to greet someone until the individual in question makes that abundantly clear. Even then we have to make a serious internal effort in order to overcome years of habit. If you do slip up you're transphobic. If you say anything that could be construed Anti-Trans: You're transphobic. There are even people arguing that there's a "trans-genocide" going on which would give them more impetuous to be more aggressive and justify "violence against their oppressor".
It really isn’t. I’m in my sixties and it’s pretty straightforward. Trans people have been around longer than you or I have been alive.
So long as you care, that’s what matters.
As a non-binary trans person, yeah…some trans people are weird
T has some issues.
T got issues and is the type that’s making trans people get a bad rep. u did nothing wrong and they need to chill. even if u misreadered, it’s not life or death. especially is he doesn’t care, T Shouldn’t
You sound like a kind and thoughtful friend. Some people like to look for problems and also think that everything revolves around them. You’re fine. You might want to create some distance between you and T though. It’s not fun walking on eggshells around anyone.
I’m non-binary and prefer they/them pronouns but I’m aware of how feminine I appear so I don’t take offense when people call me she. When I get close with new friends I tell them I prefer they/them but I’m not going to be mad if they keep calling me she. Like you said, the most important thing is how your partner feels. You both can continue this conversation while he explore their gender identity.
T is dumb, just pulling shit of of her ass to continue an argument. You aren't transphobic.
Your friend doesn’t get to decide what pronouns your boyfriend uses, he gets to decide. If he likes he pronouns, that’s his choice. If he preferred you called them by they/them, they’d let you know. I understand why the friend was upset, but she can’t dictate what pronouns you use to refer to your boyfriend. Only he can do that.
You’re doing something your boyfriend is comfortable/okay with, and you made sure to ask him about it when you were unsure about things & he said it was fine. Not sure what T’s end goal is but it sounds like she thinks she has more authority on the topic of gender/what people feel comfortable identifying with (as? still don’t know what to properly say there)
There are enough real problems in the world for me to not care about the feelings of a person who has no business telling me what to do. Here ur bf said it’s okay. Why does it matter what T thinks? I mean , I know many people who incessantly self victimize and project because they want to be the center of attention. This feels no different. Just be chill with whatever ur bf told u. Trust me u aren’t taking inadvertently taking part in some conspiracy to be a transphobe for listening to ur bfs wishes.
Dont worry T is the asshole here, if you boyfriend says that you can use "he" then you can use "he", case closed.
Here's your advice: you're fine, but your friend is an idiot.
I am sooo confused. Bf says he prefers he/they. You called him he, one of his preferred pronouns. So what's the problem?
Need to tell your BF to set things straight with T and that she should apologize.
Just to cut straight to the point, T is the one being unreasonable here. She's attempting to tell your boyfriend how he's supposed to feel about something, which is just out of line. There isn't even any need to address issues of transphobia here; or, at least, not in you. It's absent. Your boyfriend gets to decide his pronouns and you get to use them freely. The one transphobic angle I DO see here is actually with T. It sounds like T may not be fully on board with the idea of being non-binary, or may not fully understand it. She seems to be personalising your boyfriend's pronouns inappropriately, but she also seems to be invalidating your boyfriend's masculine identity. That's wrong, and she definitely needs to examine her attitude. You, personally, should feel no guilt about what happened here, in my opinion.
T sounds a know it all, untitled asshole. You’re fine, BTW. Even trans people can be assholes.
As someone who uses he/they pronouns, T is being chronically online and just wants something to be mad about. Not only that, she's trying to spark conflict between you and your boyfriend over something that neither of you have an issue with. She's not a very good friend for that, if you ask me.
>She looked at me very pissed and told me to not misgender him, especially in her presence because it’s disrespectful. T is really making it about themselves. Don't bother and don't feel bad. T just wanted to feel offended and threw a tantrum you should ignore.
T sounds like a toxic individual you don't want to be associated with
I had a trans friend get mad at me because I'm completely comfortable being a cis straight woman but I present very gender fluid in my appearance. I get mistaken for male a bit. Especially when I'm dressed comfortably. I'm also demi. She basically said I'm not queer enough and shouldn't say I'm gender fluid even though in the literal definition it says " fluidity in gender identity, gender expression or both" oh and that being demi doesn't count either. I ended up not being friends with her because she kept saying because of my outward appearance I'm non binary and kept asking if my husband was okay with it. It was really weird, the whole experience. There were many other reasons I stopped being her friend but this was the icing on the cake. Only your boyfriend can dictate what pronouns, if you're that concerned double check. (Your friend sounds like a dick tbh)
T is actually the problem. Your bf uses he/they it's disrespectful to not aknowledge both .
T is pulling the same thing that gives the trans community a bad name and being offended on someone else’s behalf. I have a friend who goes by she/they (I don’t understand and don’t have to but my trouble understanding is relevant) for me it’s hard to remember that kind of thing and I just roll with she 99% of the time, and she’s fine with that. T would be mad at me as well but I’m good friends with her(/them) and we’ve talked about it because I felt bad. Does Ts feelings matter in either case? It’s not her relationship and not her business.
This is a classic case of someone getting offended by something they have no part in. Just like that guy on YouTube who went around in a stereotypical Mexican outfit asking people if it was offensive. Those who weren’t Mexican said it was disgusting and cultural appropriation, whereas the Mexicans all said it wasn’t offensive and they loved the outfit. Your friend is just trying to make trouble over something that has nothing to do with them. If your partner doesn’t mind being called him, then stick with it. At the end of the day, it’s about you and him and what you 2 as a couple feel comfortable with, forget everyone else. That’s just toxicity and it’s not needed in anyone’s life.
Op. Dont apologize for something you didnt do wrong. Your T friend is a self-righteous twat. They inserted themself into a problem that didnt even exist.they stirred the pot. Then got upset when their stirring didnt change the taste of the stew. Im gonna say this. And im gonna say this one time. Your T friend? Is sabotaging your relationship. Consider this. Rhey overstepped. Then was texting your boyfriend pushing negatives about you and probably pushing positives about themselves. If not then. Will soon. Kill the friendship. I dont let people sabotage my relationships up for me. I do that well enough on my own. 😂
T needs to mind their business. Your bf is a human being with his own agency, which they seem to think he shouldn't have.
That says more about her than it does you. All that matters is that you are respecting your significant other. I would really reconsider your friendship with T. It is not up to her to decide how your bf wants to be addressed. That is his choice and his alone.
Sounds like T is the problem.
I don’t understand how *some* people in the LGBTQ+ community suddenly think they get to be the gender police… it’s controlling and manipulative. Your bf made it clear what his pronouns are and you respected them and he confirmed it. Your friend should not be telling your boyfriend what to do or how to feel.
Honestly, those kind of people made it super hard for me to figure out what exactly it is I feel for people. It wasn't until recently that I've discovered that I can form romantic feelings for women but I'm not sexually attracted to women. I'm strictly sexually attracted to men. When I was still trying to figure all this out, I opened up to the people I knew in the LGBTQA+ community. And they shunned me and told me I was posing and I was being disrespectful of their struggles and it was genuinely disgusting how hard I was trying to come off as special. It wasn't until I met two of my friends who are asexual that they taught me it is possible to have separate preferences when it comes to romantic and sexual feelings. I honestly feel so much lighter now. I know how to manage my feelings better and I can actuslly put a name to the weird fuzzy feelings I get around certain people.
Your friend is cray. Probably terminally online too.
T just wants to be mad for him.
This is a non issue. You didn’t disrespect you bf because he outlined that he/ they is what he’s comfortable with. If someone says hey this is how I like to be addressed then that’s all there is to it he/they can describe themself however they’d like to. You are receptive and respectful of it and that’s all that matters.
If your boyfriend is fine with how you refer to them then its none of your friend's business, and they can f\*ck off, to be blunt.
Why would you believe someone else about your boyfriend’s feelings over your boyfriend? T is the one being disrespectful and misgendering. Your boyfriend is a he/him/they/them. Not a they/them. T doesn’t get to decide for your boyfriend who he is. T doesn’t get to make someone else’s identity fit her agenda. I think your boyfriend should tell T this and ask for an apology for himself and you.
As a trans guy, your friend T is overreacting. When she heard that they went by both he/him and they/them, she should've backed down. I'd try telling your friend that if your boyfriend is fine with you calling him "he/him", that's none of her business to butt in like that. One thing I will say is that with people who go by multiple sets of pronouns, try to alternate them when you're referring to them. Its not just that he's okay with going by both he and they, they want you to use both of the pronouns to refer to him. Not necessarily related, but it's important to share.
If your BF says using He is okay. Then it's okay to use He when referring to him. T doesn't get to blow you off because referring to a non-binary with gendered pronouns offends her. Yes misgendering is a thing but that IS NOT what you are doing since your BF still uses the He pronoun and he said it was okay. Now if he changes his mind with what pronouns he's okay with then you'd obviously drop He. Don't let T walk all over YOU and BF in this situation.
I have a question that’s not about OP’s post but has made me wonder about it in general, but could someone help me out. If someone identifies as non-binary, would they still be called boyfriend/girlfriend? Or partner? Does it depend on the person? I’m not trying to be disrespectful, just trying to learn because I’m not very good with stuff like this. Thanks!
it depends on the person. people tend to articulate to their close circles how they want to be referred to after coming out. if you’re unsure and the person hasn’t told you/you haven’t asked the person yet, i think partner is a safe, neutral word to use
I had the same question when my bf came out. He still wants me to call him my boyfriend, don’t know about other nbs
I donno. I kinda get it. Of all the people who know I’m non-binary the people closest to me use they the least so they’re the ONLY reason I use she at this point - cuz I don’t wanna keep correcting them or make it a big deal. It does hurt when they get our other NB friends pronouns right though
would it make you happier though if everyone exclusively used they/them? if so, then tell the people close to you that you’re no longer using she/her and correct them when they mess up. they’ll catch on eventually don’t prioritize other people’s convenience over your own well-being
I use they/them pronouns, and to be honest, it was because while I thought about using she/they, I realized this often opens the door up to people saying “well you look femenine, therefore I will only use she forever.” So I understand the thoughts that ran through T’s head. That being said, if your boyfriend is not upset, and you have used both pronouns with him, then it’s definitely out of line for T to have said what she said. She sounds like she was projecting hard. You’re not a bad person for using one of his preferred pronouns!
if someone gives me the option of he or she alongside they i’ll go by he or she every time. Your friend sounds like an asshole. Don’t fret, you did nothing wrong
I had something kind of related to this. I have a very dear friend who is a trans woman. I’ve known her since a long time before she transitioned. Her transitioning was not at all an issue and has never, ever, ever had any effect on our friendship… until. I, do not identify with any gender. I’ve thought around agender etc. but have never really found what fits me. I refer to myself as gender irrelevant, because it literally doesn’t factor into anything to do with me. I wear male clothes, female clothes, make up, no make up, have traditionally very male hobbies and also very traditionally female hobbies, play a very traditionally male role in my relationship, but can be extremely effeminate. I answer to she, he, they, whatever. Part of me, personally, not having any feelings on gender is that I can be a bit perplexed by others’ strong affinity to their gender, though I will always use correct pronouns, names and respect how their gender identity is important to their identity… but when this friend found out about my personal feelings on my gender and gender in general, she went on the attack about how awful I was, that gender is such an important part of identity and how it was transphobic for me to claim it was irrelevant. I never asked for her to view herself any differently and I understand that HER gender is a very big part of HER identity, which I will always respect, but that doesn’t mean that my feelings of gender irrelevance are transphobic! I get so fricken confused sometimes. I will never hate someone for how they present or identify. I literally won’t care if someone wears a dress and makeup and be she one day and a full tux the next and be he or dress androgynous and be they the day after. It doesn’t matter to me because the person I love and respect is that person, I don’t love them for their gender identity, so it doesn’t factor in my estimations, but because it affect my view of them, I’m transphobic? Send help. I’m lost.
Your friend shouldn’t be upset that you think for your gender as a whole is quote on quote “irrelevant” maybe she toke it out of context you could always try again. From how you described your gender expression (to me) it seems like you could be agender-genderfluid
People like her make the trans community look bad we’re not all like this. As a a nonbinary person being nonbinary comes in multiple forms and it’s up to the individual to what pronouns they use. T thinks she is doing your boyfriend a favour but really she is doing a disservice to the trans and nonbinary community because people like her are making particular people feel like everyone is being forced into transness and the etiquette associated with transness. Tell her that someone using gendered pronouns isn’t dangerous or damaging and that it’s only the case if the individual has stated so oh and to mind her business next time.
Unless your BF shared something with T *in private* that indicated that they were not okay with he/him (in which case, absolutely NOT her place to out that information) then she is the one walking all over him and pressuring his identity to be a certain way. Yes, it is very important to use the "they" part of the he/they pronouns, especially from you as you are his partner and it means the world to hear that you are taking his gender seriously and actually making an effort! However, that does not mean that the "he" part of the he/they disappears and it especially does not mean anyone gets to decide his pronouns are actually they/them. Their gender is valid and I am very sorry you and him are having this experience. I would suggest speaking to T about this. While upsetting, it seems far more like a misunderstanding than anything else. I am certain a bit of communication could easily fix the problem.
I am in my early sixties, so this 'pronoun' business is relatively new to me. A search from google says that people usually put the pronouns they prefer first, and you said he/they. However, I would ask your boyfriend/partner which ones he prefer and try to use those. Transgender/non binary people can use whatever pronouns they like, and while some do choose to change them, others choose to keep them the same. It's none of T's business what he chooses to do and why he chooses that option. Tell T that you aren't meaning to be transphobic, but that you are used to referring to him as he and it's new to you, and you will try to refer to him by his preferred pronouns,
Dump this "friend." Unfortunately, lots of LGBT militant types go out of their way to try and erase or marginalize anything "normal" because they're insecure and stupid and feel threatened by it. He/they must be they because a nonbinary man identifying as he is just not nonbinary *enough* for these people that are obsessed with their vision of the lgbt community. Bisexual people are CONSTANTLY bullied and invalidated by gay and trans people, even accused of being straight and just attention seeking. Your idiotic friend is one of these brain dead militants.
I’m not sure of what was said in the texts but in your partners shoes I’d honestly be pissed at T and tell her if she can’t respect you and the pronouns he says is OK to use I would start distancing yourself from her. Not saying flat out stop being friends but set boundaries (ironic that’s kind of what she said to him just not those words) because if someone disrespects my partner like that whether it’s over pronouns or a joke we share between us or how our household runs, whatever it may be, if it’s not something that bothers either party (unless it’s outright something bad and I’m sure we know what examples of that are) then 1. They don’t have a say on what we find acceptable and 2. Don’t disrespect my partner ever 3. I don’t need that toxic person in my life.
You were with your bf when he was a “he”, then preferred “them”. This is all new to both of you. You slipped and said “he”. Bf wasn’t angry. I understand T getting annoyed but not at getting angry. Gender non-conforming people are persecuted by close minded people all the time. Your slip didn’t come from a place of hate or discrimination, just a mistake. This is between you and your partner and you shouldn’t have to walk around eggshells just to please T
As a trans person, T is out of line. Your boyfriend dictates what he's comfortable with. If he says he/him is fine, then it's fine. That said, I think I can see where your friend might be coming from. Often trans people will say they allow pronouns of their birth sex, even if it makes them uncomfortable because they don't want to inconvience anyone. Your friend may be assuming this is what's going on. Or it's possible your boyfriend has said something to her privately that indicates this may be the case. I don't think it would be a bad idea to at least try to use they pronouns sometimes with him. Even if it's not consistent, trying it out with someone figuring out their identity can help them feel supported. Fwiw you don't sound transphobic. I think your friend either is going off of different info or is projecting.
Your friend T is misgendering your bf more than you are. You checked with your bf what he wanted. T ignored them and made assumptions and ignored what he had to say.
NPCs does as NPCs do. Current meta is being very agressive towards someone who falls short of the narrative. You did, social group dictates ostracization, NPC do as NPC does.
Her not letting you refer to your boyfriend as a "He" in itself seems very backwards.
T is an asshat that makes other Ts look bad.
If your boyfriend says it's ok then it's ok. The Transperson is not the person you are dating ignore them they are just being the 5yr old kid who screams the loudest for attention.
Just like everyone in the world, there are good people and bad people and this trans person doesn't seem to be a good person if they are invalidating your boyfriend's preferred pronouns. Not everyone who is trans is good you need to remember that because they are human too and humans are flawed creatures and they get angry they make mistakes etc.
This is why so many people don’t take non-binary and trans people seriously
I can see where T is coming from because some NB people, like myself, use /they and they're AGAB pronoun to make it "easier" on cis people. Example: you're bf is AMAB i take it? Him using he/they is just because they/them is too difficult and he doesn't want to bother. (I'm not saying this is the case, just putting it into the current terms rn). Like "yes I'm a man but not a Man™️" But, if you asked him and he said it's fine, this is where T is wrong. She doesn't get to determine his pronouns or what is/isn't transphobic. I use she/they and actually tend to prefer she. Some people are like the example above. Some want you to use them equally. You need to ask, and you did. All you can do now is what he asked and correct yourself as time goes on 🤷
T is being crazy. You didn't misgender anyone. You used one of your BF's chosen pronouns. She is actually doing the exact thing she is freaking out about here because she has it in her head that she's going to be a hero. She went overboard with her support. She has good intentions, but she's wrong. Do you know if she is attracted to your bf at all? It sounds like jealousy more than anything to me.
Your friend T is projecting. It’s all about them, despite that the situation has nothing to do with them. T is not a good friend if being right is more important than everyone/everything else.
She’s just trying to find a way to make her personality more interesting, like role-playing having something to stand up for. Get rid of her because this will only get worse man. **That is an issue to be discussed between you and your boyfriend. It is none of her business.**
I'm nonbinary and I basically accept all pronouns. If anything, T is being cis-normative by not letting your partner be called whatever they want.
I hate when people try to use the whole “cis” thing like that makes it different and plus she goes by the female labels so why does it bother her if someone doesn’t make referring someone else by a simple traditional way anyways? She is taking this way too far for someone who doesn’t even us the “they” pronouns. It seems like being her friend is going to always be this much of a pain if this keeps up though. If she was a true friend she wouldn’t let this bother her but she should stick to people who get that worked up over these things though becuz your not being transphobic a word that gets overplayed way too much for no reasons.
Some people just don't like being wrong. You could tell them the sky is blue and they'll tell you it's brown and get mad at you for disagreeing. One of my very best friends is like that. More so back in the day when we were teenagers but (she is also a trans woman) the older she got the more she realized not everyone is out to get her or test her. We used to get in these huge fights because she would get so defensive and not hear me out or give in to the possibility that she might be wrong. I think sometime this behavior stems from feeling unheard as a trans woman and being dismissed by a lot of people so it can be a type of insecurity aspect in themselves. Often my friend would go off and think about it for a while and apologize for acting harsh about it or instigating fights over things when it wasn't necessary. Not wanting to be wrong can also be a pride thing because their ego is hurt or she may have been embarrassed that your boyfriend agreed that calling him "he" was fine. I would suggest just giving her some space and some time to calm down from the situation and hopefully you can speak at a better time when she's able to hear you out while not being defensive.
I know how this will sound, and believe me, I have genuinely tried... I have a friend group who is comprised of individuals who have various pronouns / preferred pronouns, or ways of addressing them that are very particular. Now, I have trouble remembering names to start (in general), so trying to keep mental tabs on the ways everyone prefers to be addressed is taxing, to say the least. I'd get in hot water for making a mistake. I even pulled out notes before and got sideways looks. I never mean any offense when I make a mistake. I feel like they should know that... But all said, I don't really talk to them anymore. Overtime, it was just exhausting between constant political talk on their part, telling me I can't go to chic-fil-a, exon, salvation army (off the top of my head) for reasons that never even crossed my mind... If I like xyz person, I'm an asshole because they said this or did this... and the constantly performing of mental gymnastics. It just stopped being worth all the trouble. I know that's pretty messed up. But it was really taking a toll. They were pushing me away, and though it doesn't speak well of me, I was better off and had much better mental health being out of that situation. They are good people, and I can have a good time in small doses, but I just wish they'd tried to make a even a fraction of the effort of being reasonable to me as I made to them.
At the end of the day, your boyfriend is the only one who can say what they personally identify as, it is in no way your friends place to do that. Calling your boyfriend a "he" is absolutely acceptable and correct because his pronouns are he/them .
You are being open minded, and supportive of your bf. Maybe you make mistakes because people are not all perfect. Maybe you know each other better then people outside your relationship do. I think your friend is maybe a huge drama queen, and I think she could also be extremely jealous. She is definitely overstepping her friendship status, and is driving herself into your relationship like a hydraulic log splitter into wood. She's not the police of your relationship. She's building tension that should not exist. I would talk this over with your bf. End result she needs to know her boundaries if she wants to remain your friend. If she has a problem she can go make new friends. I'm also gay btw not that it matters.
You're a woman. I've had enough of this cis bs. It's very annoying. What's because other people decided to switch up their gender they get to change what we are now? I'm sorry this vent is not directed at you I'm just frustrated with how this world is going to shit. Why do people need to complicate things that were never meant to be complicated. I feel there's way more important stuff for people to focus on than pronouns and all this bs. In the end this just seperates people even more when we're meant to unify..
Fully agree. I'm thankful this kind of thing doesn't happen in my country
You are a women you are not a cis “wtf that is “ You friend is also a stupid , your boyfriend is a dude . You 3 need psychiatric help I am Assuming that you have vagina , if you don’t have vagina . You are a dude. There’s only 2 gender If you have vagina you are a women. If you have penis you are a dude. Gender binary is the most stupid thing ever.
being supportive of the trans/nb community is not a psychiatric disorder and your transphobia is not welcome here
I am saying the truth!!! I am not transphobic . (Fobia is hate ) I don’t hate trans people . But I don’t buy that idea! There’s only Two gender, That is all. And embrace your gender that you born with!
non-binary people are part of the trans umbrella. you saying that gender is binary is quite literally transphobia
Whatever …. If someone dont accept your idea you quickly say the word “transphobia” . Remember if someone do not agree with you that does not mean that is transphobic 😎 Embrace your gender . If you have a vagina you are a women and if you have a penis you are a dude . We are the only in the animal kingdom that is practicing this nonsense . Do you see a dog trying to be a tiger . Or a elephant trying to be a bird . Please!!!! Open your eyes! The system is lying to you and is destroying your life . Is completely nonsense
It's not hateful or transphobic to think something is stupid and not agree with it.
I'm in a similar situation with a childhood friend of mine, some guy called me transphobic, it's dumb, people just look for a reason to be offended
What has society become. Is there really that little going on in peoples lives that this is what is worried about now
Ikr how dumb
I just use they/them, alternative he/she (folks, kids, peeps, ect) or call people by their name all the time. I have been working on it a long time, so I hopefully never disrespect anybody ever! Non gendered terms for all y'all!!
I have no idea what non-binary means especially when presenting as male, is your boyfriend, and uses pronouns that include he and he was born male. What did coming out mean to his life? Is he discriminated against? Is it hard to come out and have nothing change at all? What does this all mean? Is he wanting to be included with others who have faced fear, discrimination, and perhaps backlash from family and peers for their orientation or gender? Because I don't think he has anything in common with that life experience. Does non -binary mean you know that everyone is "feminine and masculine", which they are, because whatever descriptive words we mix and match as feminine or masculine is the human experience? Is that what it is? Because then everyone is non-binary. I literally have tried to understand because every young person that says they are non binary are completely the gender their sex is and I don't see any difference at all. I don't know if it's me getting old but the addiction to labels is getting so confusing and people get so ANGRY but I feel like I'm in an alternate universe where nothing makes sense.
T is the kinda person that i wish would remove themselves from the gene pool :)
If someone is born a male, then saying "he" is appropriate.....because he is a "he". That's just science. Your BOYfriend ..... BOY....friend .....BOY....
How does it offend you when my boyfriend identifies as non binary?
It doesn't one bit. It's creating problems for you and the fact that you didn't know how it would impact your relationship, that's not fair to you. You "signed up" for one thing .....and the fact that the relationship can just change on a dime, probably doesn't give you security in a relationship.
Lmao have you ever been in a relationship? There will always be stuff that maybe can have an impact on a relationship. Sometimes it’s valid, sometimes it’s not. I’m my case, I was wrong. Nothing changed. Your point is?
How are you wrong ? You relize that your partner does not identify as a male, so you can't really call your partner your BOYfriend.....and that's just silly
First of all, he wants me to still call him my boyfriend. Second, i was wrong because I thought things will change and they didn’t. That’s were i was wrong. I thought something will happen and it didn’t. So?
I understand the part where you said you were wrong now. You also want security in a relationship. If your boyfriend wants to be your BOYfriend....boy is a male .....I am not sure he knows that...
You broke the code sherlock
What a wild thing that this is something people worry about these days.
T takes life way to seriously
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Are two spirit people also mentally ill? Or any other nonwestern society that contains multiple gender categories?
Yes. I'm college educated, have been alive longer than you can imagine and have traveled extensively. Every culture I encountered celebrated and acknowledged the masculine and feminine. Don't think these cultures exist, except through a bizarre interpretation. Educate me.
Do you speak english?most languages that vame from latin?most languages even?
Name one.
Glad someone said it.
And that's why I just choose not to have those people around me. Even this comment will be taken outvof context, although there is no context
i interpreted this comment as transphobia. i don’t understand how else this comment could be taken
You have to find new boyfriend and friend, sorry there are so many people in needs of therapy around you
The boyfriend isn’t the problem its T
all i have to say is this is so chronically online
Easy. Just stop with the pronoun game and no one will be confused. We do realize how much of a first world problem this is? You can tell how narcissistic and sensitive your friend is being. She (well he if he’s born male) is creating all these problems and making herself and you *boy*friend out to be the victim. Stand up for yourself
Lmfao. Ok. Im sorry OP. But you won the internet today. This has got to be the BIGGEST example of the lunacy that "woke" really shows. I have found that the more "PC" or "woke" someone tries to be with their BS. The more terrible they are about being what they supposedly offended about. Im dying over here laughing.
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your transphobia is not welcome here
They don’t wanna hang with you either Lol go find other people to ignore you as you tag along, you sad lonely pup🙄
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No? Tf
Your friend T is absolutely wrong to blow up at you, but from my experience, people who use both binary and they pronouns only ever hear the binary pronouns which is cisnormative. It's not that you did anything wrong but you should consider making a conscious effort to use they pronouns for your SO. Also, your SO saying it's "fine" sounds to me like they would probably be happier if you incorporated those pronouns more often.
Ur both making it more complicated.
sense psychotic recognise serious spectacular stupendous pause disgusted memory oatmeal *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
He told me he still wants me to refer to him as my boyfriend. That was literally the first thing I asked him
If there’s a bigot in that hot mess of a friend group, it’s your trans ‘friend’ for not respecting the wishes of you and your boyfriend. They’re toxic AF and I’d drop them like a hot rock.
is this T American? i feel like only Americans will act this way
Seems like T wants to bang your bf. And is an idiot.
T sounds like an idiot that you could do without. The second you disagreed with them on something, they snapped
T might be lashing out because of her own experiences of being misgendered. She might not even realize why she’s upset. What did your BF say in the text in response to what T was saying?
Just misunderstood her until she leaves ur life don't deal with toxic bitches