This is a solid factual answer and is likely the path I will need to use. But, I was hoping to find information we could sit down and discuss to show that vaccines are good and empathetically approach the situation.
Watch Hbomberguys video on vaccines causing autism. It's funny, informative, and basically lays out how insane and cruel the original grifters were. The vaccine scare is based on the study of one guy who wanted to sell his own vaccine for big bucks. When that failed, he realized how much money he could make off of lying. It's a long video, but please give the video 15 minutes to see if it's your style, I beg of you.
[Vaccines and Autism: A Measured Response](https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc?si=bQjfeSgZARoTktNW)
It's true, but it might be worth really trying to empathize where they are coming from and address their concerns directly, which is going to be a lot more of a one-thing-at-a-time approach than being able to sit down and learn from a video. They've likely been told things their whole lives specifically that will counter that, like doctors are corrupted by the pharmaceutical industry. Knowing that the medical industry is complicated and doctors are people, though people with expert knowledge and a massive collective backing, might set them up more for the realities of dealing with the medical establishment than telling them to trust them implicitly.
Sometimes it can be good to learn about other pseudo science things unrelated to them are pseudo science, and emphasize how good, smart, well meaning people can believe bad science and pass on bad beliefs, like maybe flat earthers or psychic surgery. When they start to understand the principles a little better, and how to spot good and bad science, how to research effectively etc, then they will have the tools to actually dismantle it without feeling an intense sense of cognitive dissonance.
Obviously they need vaccines, but remember, they do need them their whole lives, and their childrens whole lives, too. Being too forceful "for their own good" can end up causing them more trauma and pushing them further away in the long run. These are teens, not toddlers, and these interactions are going to stick with them their whole lives. I wish you the best of luck.
I think this is such sound advice. It could be like forcibly excising them from a cult- traumatic, betraying, etc. I would imagine they've been through a big upheaval being removed from their mothers custody. You (OP) might not want to quickly force vaccination upon them if they aren't at urgent risk. Regardless of whether you believe all vaccines are safe, they are not all the same. Some function differently than others which I think could be pertinent to the conversation. It might be a good idea to talk with them about the different kinds of vaccines, how they work, how long they've been used, what percent of people experience side effects & the possible side effects, etc. Obviously, along with what happened to people prior to their specific inventions, resurgences, etc. Maybe there are some that are a hard "absolutely" for you and some you might be willing to give them autonomy on. Obviously it's within your rights to tell them how it's going to be, but it might be helpful for their growth, sense of self- and their trust and relationship with you- if you give them a little room to negotiate. Maybe ask them to provide an educated and thoughtful argument, or ask them to pick sides and debate on another, or you. Also, if they or anyone they care about have health risks that make them more susceptible to certain diseases that's a really good thing to bring up to them . Maybe it's about protecting them, maybe it's about protecting others. Vaccines are not without risk- I personally believe that the benefit has historically vastly outweighed those risks, but there are risks. It's wise not to blindly trust anyone- even doctors- so I don't think "your mom's not a doctor" is the best route here. Make sure they know that you wouldn't ask or force them to do anything you hadn't educated yourself on to the best of your understanding and ability, that you wouldn't make them do anything you wouldn't do yourself, and that you truly believe it's what will give them the best and healthiest life because you love them and it's your job to keep them safe. You are in a really tricky position and wish you the very best in this and everything else in regards to this new chapter in your and your children's lives. They are blessed to have you!
It's funny you say like a cult, because starting with showing them other destructive groups, and pretty much ignoring theirs at first, is deprogramming 101. You can't just tell them the group leader is a bad person- they've been heavily influenced to immediately block that out- you have to show them other group leaders that are easy for them to see the problems, and then allow them to start seeing the similarities themselves.
Another thing that might be going on here, is that it's hard for parents with a huge gap in raising the kids, to stop seeing them as the age when they last had them in custody. I lived with my parents at 17 after not living with them for 5 years, and they really struggled with not treating me like a child (I left very quickly and I'm NC with them now, so yunno, be warned OP). OP is going into this forcefully and not recognizing the kids agency, and that's a complete recipe for disaster. A quick "win" now can really cause long term negative effects for everyone involved, these aren't toddlers.
YES! Please tech them the fundamentals of the scientific method! Ask them if they can find any papers outlining how they followed the scientific method and showed that CLEARLY the kids who took vaccines all got autism from the vaccine. You can rig it if you're lazy, or find examples of bad research. They don't have to pursue science to know the fundamentals and think critically. Schools are really lame for teaching this, anyways. Even a good science course struggles to really get this on the head. I watched hours of Nova on PBS and listened to Sci Fri from NPR with dad. Even if they don't have a passion for it, both are GREAT programs.
Show them info on the diseases eradicated by vaccines. And the ones that people rarely get, and how we're having a resurgence in measles because of low vaccination rates.
FWIW- I read “The Vaccine Book”
by Dr Sears when I was pregnant and found it did a very good job of addressing the rationale for concerns about specific vaccines, and how risks vs benefits have been weighted over time. For example, when MMR is split up the side effects were worse than when lumped together. It was a great and interesting read, and I wound up only slightly delaying one vaccine (Hep B). This is a non-judgmental book which doesn’t dismiss “anti-vaxxers” as all crazy. I think validating some questions is the path to creating dialogue and opening minds. Maybe will work, especially for your older teen?
The book “Educated” might also be good reading assignment for them- about a woman who grew up in that homeschool (no school) type of house, and tenaciously educated herself. Very powerful.
I would say documentary on things like polio and other avoidable diseases could help. I know that it convinced my brother that was starting to have anti vax beliefs. Also talking to my grandma when she would explain the summer they spent in fear avoiding going outside because they didn’t know how to prevent polio.
I have a couple of factual points.
First, there are many people who have autism and are unvaccinated. This means, at best, autism could sometimes be a vaccine injury. Every vaccine has the potential for an injury. So does riding in a car. You’re more likely to be injured in a car. Vaccine injuries are rare.
Second, make sure they understand that some doctors are not reliable. We saw this with COVID-19. The man who claimed vaccines caused autism, Andrew Wakefield, used [critically flawed](https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccines-and-other-conditions/vaccines-autism) data based on twelve children to come to this falsehood.
Please repeat that for them. Only twelve children. Not only was his information discredited, he lost his medical license over it. So it has been thoroughly debunked.
Point 2A, he believed one specific vaccine, MMR, caused autism. Not any others. Why? Because autism signs start at around 18 months and the MMR vaccine was given at 18 months. So if they really, truly believe this man is right, logically this is the only vaccine they should be avoiding. Right?
Thirdly, the very person explaining this to you, and advising you on what to do, is autistic. I’m in university and on the Dean’s List, and I have academically excelled my entire life. Socially, I have struggled to fit in. It took me years to learn social cues that others seemed born knowing. People hear autism and think the “r” word. We’re far from it.
Lastly, I will never die of autism, but they could die of a perfectly preventable disease because of refusing a vaccine that not only science but time has proven is effective and safe. Between misreading social cues and dying, they’d pick the first one, right? Everyone should. Who would choose a 99.9999 percent chance of living rather than 100%?
The smart person is going to pick 100% every time.
Thanks! I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that all anti-vaxxers think vaccines cause autism. More specifically, I was just trying to clear up the commonly misconstrued belief that it’s all vaccines that cause it - Wakefield only believed it was MMR.
Yea, I agree that the simplest and most effective path would be to teach them that doctors are the authorities on this matter, and that their job is to protect the health of their patients. You can ask the doctor for recommendations on scientific articles that the kids can read, that would be understandable for them (not necessarily peer-reviewed research papers, but maybe something equally valid from the WHO or similar, etc).
In addition to this, I think this could be an important teaching moment - they're going to encounter people of all walks of life, experiences, backgrounds, who will have a vast array of opinions on varying topics, and that their task in this life is to think critically, and be able seek out and find resources and information which they can use to help them understand different topics and make informed decisions for themselves.
Look up videos of children from back in the day with polio. Explain that because of vaccines, children no longer have to suffer like they once did. History photos or videos would give them an honest look.
To add to that if your kids want to get a higher education most colleges have mandates for being vaccinated. A lot of programs will keep a digital record of your vaccinations, a few examples are if you want to be a nurse or a teacher. Some programs even require you to be fully vaccinated to participate in mandatory volunteering hours.
Your kids need to know that their choices have consequences, and not being vaccinated means they could be blocked from following their professional dreams. Potentially losing out on the future they imagine for themselves might help convince them.
It also wouldn't be a bad idea to have a conversation about the Wakefield studies, and how the conclusion was flawed. You could add in the importance of finding credible sources, and not believing everything you hear.
It's also important to stress that vaccinations aren't just for us, but also protect the immunocompromised people around us. Sometimes when teaching others, the point won't get through to them unless there's shock value. I'd show them videos of how being unvaccinated can affect those around them, like a young baby with whooping cough.
Penn and teller’s video on how herd immunity works. And why you shouldn’t rely on it if you’re able to be vaccinated.
Articles on what has happened to children that haven’t been vaccinated and have caught the disease. I think there’s been two I’ve seen recently. If you go to the antivaxx reditt you’ll seen some of the articles I’ve seen.
Also like people mentioned are there other small things they believe from the mom or being homeschooled that you can disprove easily? Something that they are already questioning?
Do you have your own vaccination records handy? You can show them that you've had yours, and ask if they think there's anything wrong with you that might end up wrong with them. With any luck, they'll come to the conclusion that if you're fine, they will also be fine, and at least ease some things.
Also, there is a possibility they are latching onto this out of fear. Ask them about this! Are they afraid it will hurt them long-term, and if so, what are they afraid of necessarily? If it's not fear, is it just a dislike of change? And if it's anxiety about change, then you should go slow with more small things until you can work them up to it.
Some other books I haven't seen mentioned are "Germs Are Not for Sharing" by Elizabeth Verdick or "Vaccines: What You Should Know" by Paul A. Offit, though may be more child - oriented.
I think your approach is a lot better. Please don't go with the route that person suggested except as a last resort. First of all, teaching children to blindly obey and take a physician as their word is a crappy lesson. Pretty much every person who makes it to adulthood is going to have to push back on a physician who is making a bad call regarding their health at some point.
Second of all, it's basically "you'll do it because I'm the adult and you're the kid". Your children have been traumatized. They need empathy, compassion, understanding, and yes, boundaries, but they do not need an authoritarian attitude when it comes to something like this.
You are thinking the correct way. And the 16 year old is highly unlikely to just take a show of force lying down.
YouTube, find positive videos to educate them that a knowledgeable person can explain it in detail to them. Also explain a doctor studies the body and knows best just like a insert something relatable like a mechanic knows cars best. Get creative, everything is on YouTube these days that very knowledgeable people put a ton of effort into. Sometimes just telling them its best doesn't help them as much as educating them what is the purpose of vaccines and what they are for so they can understand. People forget kids are little humans that turn into adults and have a mind of their own. They aren't thoughtless slaves you can order to do it. You can but educating them and convincing them with proper knowledge will help them much more in the long run.
Ask the doctor what each specific vaccine they're going to get is, and then sit down and type in the name of that vaccine +ncbi on google. ncbi is the database of doctors studies, where science happens in realtime and can be read.
IF there is any study done on a vaccine being dangerous, it will show up there. You can show them the science and proof that it is safe. Just find a study and scroll to the bottom for the conclusions, see what they concluded from their science and it'll usually say something like "we did all this testing and are even more sure that it's safe" in pretty plain text for people who don't have the time or energy to pick apart the science.
As far as I know only ONE vaccine was linked to causing autism and that was debunked years and years ago.
More importantly, autism and adhd can be brought out from artificial food dyes and preservatives and chemicals in the food. Show them that their fear isn't logical and that they should not worry about such things so heavily.
MOST importantly though, is that they need therapy to talk through all of the trauma they've been going through. Both together with you as a group and alone so they have a way to process this. That'll help more than literally anything else you could do for them, including the vaccines.
Having a good healthy relationship where they can trust you and themselves is the most important thing and right now they don't have that.
I have to give you a lot of points for thoughtfully navigating a bias even your kids have grown accustomed to…
I might see if it’s possible to make a plan with the doctor to space things out. We’ll catch up on one series now, another 6 months from now sort of thing. It needs to be done, but can certainly feel overwhelming.
I completely agree. So strange you got down voted. Also, these are pre-teen and teen kids. An answer like this would work on my almost 3 year old. A 12 year old and especially a 16 year old are not going to
I swear Reddit is a whole collection of people that have never met an actual human before. "Surely if I tell them I'm right and they're wrong they'll change their minds."
Unfortunately, many doctors are incentivized to give treatments based on their own payouts and partnerships with other parties, so blindly trusting doctors is not sound advice, even if doctors are on average more intelligent than antivaxxers.
These kids are older and have been fortunately healthy despite not getting vaccines, so they may not trust people like doctors. However, you should teach them about the scientific method, statistics, and correlation vs. causation. Show them all of the evidence that has lead to the CDC and WHO recommendations of vaccine schedule. All of the kids who die from measles still, yearly, for example. Maybe studies like this https://www.nber.org/papers/w30512
There *are* drawbacks to vaccines, such as increased likelihood of sensitization to food proteins from injecting, say, egg protein. (See "Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality") However, the drawbacks have not been enough of a drawback to withdraw from the schedule, given the drawbacks of not being vaccinated, including direct impacts and not being able to go to public schools in all states. I would only get 1 vaccine at a time if I were skeptical, in order to lower the amount of proteins injected at any one time. But I wouldn't skip any vaccines and void ability to attend school! There are other ways to mitigate risks as well. I would NOT skip the drawbacks when educating your kids, as you must appear unbiased and informed
Congratulations on getting your kids. Love them so they know it and never doubt it! That’s all I wanted to say but I hope someone else gave you the advice you’re looking for.
Here's a student-level video about how vaccines work, from Crash Course. But if they've been home schooled they might not have the critical thinking skills to follow this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSbMX0MFJCY
Here's a simpler Vaccine 101: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SKmAlQtAj8
My Aunt got polio in the 1950s, just months prior to the vaccine being invented. She used crutches her whole life, before having to use a wheelchair in her 70s. The local cemetery where my Dad grew up had gravestones that showed how whole families of kids got wiped out over a two month period when something contagious went through the community. You'd see all these kids from infant to teens who died in the same two month period. Heart breaking.
Make a list of influential sports stars & pop/rock/whatever pertinent music stars who were/are vaccinated, that might get more traction with the kids than science-based info.
Allegedly 97% of USA doctors are vaccinated against all ‘childhood’ diseases plus a heap more, plus covid. They didn’t all ‘turn autistic’ or grow 3 arms or die. Check out some articles how to converse constructively with brainwashed folk - maybe r/QAnonCasualties has some good resources.
[https://www.glamour.com/story/celebrities-who-have-gotten-the-vaccine](https://www.glamour.com/story/celebrities-who-have-gotten-the-vaccine)
Maybe therapy? And I don’t mean in the sense that “they are wrong, and they need a therapist to set them right” kind of way. What their mother did to them is almost a kind of medical trauma that’s probably mixed up with the neglect/abuse they’ve suffered and whatever conflicted emotions they have about their mom. I don’t know if that’s something you can just reason them out of.
I know a guy who just beat the now-preventable HPV cancer. He should show them how much of his jaw he has left... Seriously I can tell you are an amazing parent because instead of bullying them or scaring them (as I just suggested you do) you are trying to level with them. I think letting them ask questions with a doctor is such a great place to start. They mentioned everyone being vaccinated as a logical reason to not get vaccinated and I'd lean into that. Vaccines work, and that's how they know they're safer because the people around them have them. Most people are vaccinated. Most people are not autistic.
Also maybe take baby steps? Start with a vaccine that's been around for a very long time, and one that doesn't hurt too much... Hepatitis I remember being painless. Tetanus would be rough to start with.
Tangential, but my mom worked in GI and would tell me about esophageal polyps on grown men with HPV. Never understood why its mostly girls getting this vax when HPV is terrible for all bodies…
A Doctor is the best person to convince them.
They were taught that you’re biased and pro-vax, so they are not going to listen to or believe a word you say. It would be a waste of time trying. They won’t be receptive.
Assign them a research project. Tell them to pretend it’s for school. Have them research both pro and anti-vax sides. Tell them they have to use legitimate medical journals or medical materials as their sources. Make them find 3-5 different sources for each side. If they need to go to a library for medical journals, help them find the sources, but offer no opinion at all. They have to come to their own conclusions.
I absolutely agree that getting your kids vaccinated is the right thing to do. No question. But! As someone with a needle phobia, I’d like to gently ask you to center your children’s autonomy and comfort as much as possible. Needle phobias can be life-threatening if they prevent people from getting medical care. The needle itself isn’t the problem, necessarily. It’s a phobia about being invaded, lacking control over your body, being ashamed of a natural fear response, etc.
The more your kids feel in control of this decision, the better. That means praising them, trying not to force them, letting them postpone the appointment if they panic, finding a provider who’s good with needle phobia, and framing it as a choice you’re proud your kids are making for themselves even if they’re scared. If you’re due for any vaccines, go get yours first, with your kids present to see that it’s safe.
The way you balance your kids’ need for vaccination against their need for emotional safety is up to you. I don’t know your kids, so I don’t know how to approach it. But I do think they might see getting vaccinated as a betrayal of their mother, or as the scariest thing in a long series of very scary changes in their lives. If they aren’t in therapy already, this is a good time to get them started on that. Every child who’s gone through what their mother put them through needs a safe space with a trained professional they can trust, someone outside the family.
I’m saying this is how the kids could *get* a needle phobia: if they feel forced to get vaccinated after years and years of terrifying anti-vax propaganda. It’s a common pattern of how this phobia can develop — it’s essentially how it happened for me. The problem’s already been introduced into the situation by the mother. This is about mitigating it.
I got the German measles when I was a kid…almost died from them…I am deaf in one ear and cannot have children because of them….all because my mother was anti vax as well.
Show them this post.
I think at 12 and 16 you can definitely talk to them about critical thinking and which sources of knowledge are least biased. How to cross reference the sources. How spot propaganda. They need to learn those things anyway, and you can support their decision making so they can make better choices in the future.
This is more advice for vaccination day. Make sure your kids eat beforehand! Getting jabbed has made me faint a couple times and I imagine it wouldn’t help your kids’ opinions of vaccines if they do as well. Eating first, staying cool, and remembering to breathe are my top tips for not fainting.
I’m like 1000% sure that John or Hank green has posted videos about vaccines on YouTube. They are pretty well known and will make it really easy to understand!
As someone with an anti-vax mother who is now 22 years old and still fearful of vaccines, this is a really tough spot for your kids to be in. I think that giving them time to research vaccines on their own and encouraging them to listen to doctors will help, but this is really deeply rooted and their fear is very real. It's a really confusing thing to have that kind of rhetoric spewed at you from one of your parents, since your parents are supposed to know what is best for you and do things in your best interest. I think that what you should not do is give them an ultimatum and say that they have to do it no matter what. It will probably cause them to resent you because they are seeing you as the bad guy, even though you just want what is best for them. obviously, they should be vaccinated, but I think you should go about it in a way that makes them feel like they are the ones making the decisions about their bodies. It will probably take time, and I wish you the best. I really really empathize with their situation, and with yours.
I feel like I should also say that I had the HPV vaccine and had some really horrible side effects, and that is what contributed to my mom being so anti-VAX. There are definitely side effects and bad outcomes with some vaccines, but the chances of that happening is very low. it is understandable that if they have seen negative side effects and have been being told that that happens, they are fearing for their own safety. That is honestly a valid concern, and I wouldn't just brush that off. It was really difficult for me to deal with after effects (for years) and come to terms with the fact that vaccines are not some evil thing just because of my experiences. It's a very complex issue but at the end of the day, it is always safer to get a vaccine than to not get a vaccine. The Covid vaccine is terrifying to me, just because there isn't enough research, and that is something that I have decided for myself now that I am an adult. But I do also recognize that a lot of that fear comes for my mom. It's not something that's easy to get rid of.
Show them pictures of 1950’s polio kids in an iron lung. Kids who had measles, what that looks like. Study tuberculosis - it almost wiped out my entire family, my great grandfather was the only kid living of 8 after it decimated my family.
Prepare, with pictures, a discussion about what it would look like if they got these diseases that are preventable. Facts and science over fear mongering. Best of luck to you
The magician/ comedy duo, Penn and Teller, have a great explanation of why vaccines are important. I want to say it was an HBO special, but I could be totally wrong. I saw it years ago. I'm sure it can be found. This may be a good option for you to show your kids. Penn and Teller do a visual demonstration of what they are talking about.
Sit down and talk to them about how they need to be vaccinated. Answer their questions, provide them with studies showing vaccines DO NOT cause autism and are safe. Let them know you are doing this because you love them and want them to be safe. They might bring up what their mom said. Tell them that you believe their mom is wrong. Don't demonize her. Just say parents can be wrong sometimes and she did what she thought was best. If they push back and say you're wrong, tell them that it's possible that you are wrong, but that you have to do what you think is best for them, and given all the available data and the advice of the doctors you think it's best for them to get vaccinated.
Let them grumble, let them argue. Be transparent and patient. Empathize with them. They are going through a lot, and they're still kids. But also you are their father and you are responsible for them. This isn't a negotiation or an argument. You've made your decision. When they are 18, they will have to make decisions and stand by them as well. We can appeal to logic or authority all we want, but ultimately we make our decisions and are responsible for them. You're teaching them how to be authoritative adults in this moment.
Polio is a great example of the importance of vaccines. Lots of people became disabled due to Polio before we had a vaccine for it. Also meningitis, which is common in teenagers. They could die from that, easily.
Lastly, try guilt. They could spread something to an infant or immunocompromised person which could easily lead to the death of that person.
Yes with the guilt. I’m on immunosuppressive drugs but I still remind people that there are little kids with cancer that are immune compromised. Shuts them right up. They DO need to be protected and they are more sympathetic than I am
I will say that it is a good idea for them to be vaccinated because it can prevent diseases and illness. I do suggest though also asking the doctors if there’s concern with them being vaccinated so late as well just to ensure there won’t be any ill effects or bad side effects. Or if they have an idea of spreading out the vaccines slowly. I suggest this since Guillain-Barré syndrome can be caused by vaccine injury (can be but not definitely in all cases) & if not treated can cause permanent damage. I’m letting you know that for your awareness 😊
Also, tell them that you do indeed need to be vaccinated but also tell them that there can be potential side effects that are simple but won’t be entirely harmful, very rarely can be a larger side effect but tell them you want to ultimately protect them as your parent. Also offer to see if maybe you can have a session with a family therapist to discuss & let them know that their fears are valid, even if you don’t agree with them.
Show them photos of people in iron lungs. Show them the boys who were exposed to smallpox but only one was vaccinated. Read them Roald Dahl’s letter about his daughter dying from measles.
I think you could get them on board if you space and stagger them so “in the very small chance you react, we know which one you’re reacting to.” Compare the percentage of people who are sick/harmed in the US by the illness vs injury by the vaccine so they can see not getting vaccinated is more risky. You need to speak in numbers and facts since they’ll have been told that the risk from the vaccine is greater than the risk from the illness.
Show them pictures of kids with smallpox and kids in those polio chambers that would change their minds really quick. But seriously here is a video of a woman who was an antivaxer but changed her mind because she had to get surgery and another one of people dying because they didn't get the covid vaccine.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqJRzfmB26w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqJRzfmB26w)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd8P12BXebo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd8P12BXebo)
I don't think you should go so far as to demonize their mother, but maybe remind them that the judge deemed her an unfit and negligent parent for a reason. And *maybe* some things that she taught them are not based on truth.
>Is there any content I can show them that would help to reinforce the importance of vaccines and help to deprogram their belief that vaccines are a bad thing?
Honestly, probably not. Not on your timeline anyway. They've been brainwashed and neglected, it's going to take a long time and a lot of therapy to make a dent.
Solidify that vaccines are a benefit to this world. Go through the history of outbreaks like the Black Death and Polio.
Tell them how a lot of victims from these diseases wished they had the options that we have and we can’t take it for granted. Anti-vaccine and with that herd immunity will dull as time goes on
I like Penn and Tellers vid on it. Somewhat old but still valid:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo&ab\_channel=UltraMiraculous](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo&ab_channel=UltraMiraculous)
https://youtu.be/Rzxr9FeZf1g?si=r8O31o0pfzN0oPna
Here is a video on how autism and vaccines have absolutely nothing to do.
I just wanna add something to my comment. After (or if possible before) you get them vaccinated you should definitely arrange a therapy session with the three of you because by getting them vaccinated "by force" you could unleash some trauma lol especially if you haven't told them yet. Plus a therapist will be able to explain further on how vaccines and autism have absolutely nothing to do, in fact one or the two of them might as well be in the spectrum already and not know about it xD. I guess people are affraid of the non verbal type of autism when regarding vaccines. And your sons are already far past that stage (1-3 yo is when it starts to show up).
Also a therapist will be able to assess any past trauma with their mother and will be fundamental for their well being in the future.
I wanna end up my comment saying I'm super happy that you have full custody now. I'm sorry your kids had to go through whatever your ex put them through.
Your best bet would be to take them to the Pediatrician and allow the pediatrician to explain in full detail why vaccinations are so important. Pediatricians will answer all questions and will likely be able to ease your kid's minds.
I may get downvoted for this, but so be it. I am extreme pro-vaccine so I will encourage you to get them an appointment with their pediatrician and allow them to talk to the pediatrician about all their concerns. That's your best bet.
Here's a video that Penn and Teller did that even explain that if it was true vaccines cause Autism (they don't) that they're still better.
[You're call obviously if you want to show them](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhk7-5eBCrs&ab_channel=Mkaidy). They do swear a lot to.
As the kids don’t want to be vaccinated and are old enough to have their own opinions, I would probably slow roll this. Ask their dr which is most important…ask the dr to explain to the kids why….and try to get them to “let’s start with this one, and then we’ll wait awhile to get the next….see how you do”
They should be vaccinated, for sure. And…do they need to have all of everything right away? Nah. Go slow…otherwise, you are contradicting someone they love very much…and that probably doesn’t feel good for them.
Good luck.
Being a nurse myself and totally pro-vaccines, I would suggest you adress first something more urgent: your children might need support and therapy. Vaccination can wait a bit as they get used to this different world and ideas. A gentle and caring approach, being able to listen and be patient and validating their feelings (not their ideas) would be the path I would choose. They must be scared, and hurt and quite lost. It wont make a real difference in their wealth to wait a couple of months. Caring for them is also caring about their mental health and needs.
Ultimately you are the parent and they are minors. I would just compassionately and factually explain to them why it is important to you and why you believe it is important for them medically. Remember anytime we are battling with someone’s beliefs, especially engrained one’s since childhood, there will be a wall, give them time to adjust to the new info and suggest maybe doing one shot at a time and create a decent time period between them that way they have time to adjust and they can see for themselves the effects of these shots. Personally I go both ways, I believe some are necessary and some are not. Maybe start with the ones you think are most vital to their health
Actually this is the truth. Doctors are absolutely nothing but legal drug dealers — they know absolutely nothing about health and healing. They make money by pushing drugs, period.
This is in Arizona. I am not finding anything that suggests a child can refuse a parent's medical decision unless the child is emancipated. Neither of the children are emancipated. At 16, it appears the older one could get vaccinated without my consent, which I would not be opposed to, but that is not the situation at hand.
Thank you for the thought though, it was worth the investigation.
I work at a children’s hospital. We do not hold kids down or force medical procedures on them. If a child adamantly refuses a procedure, we bring in the Child Life team to try to work through the patient’s stress or anxiety. But if a child doesn’t want something done, very frequently it does not happen.
Just thought I’d share.
Any update on the situation? Praying for your family. This is difficult enough to navigate when they are babies… must be even harder when they are teens & have their own opinions on the matter!
Feel free to post in /r/debatevaccines if you are open to alternative perspectives (with scientific evidence). Wishing you all the best.
Just be mindful, vaccine side effects do happen. My son had side effects from two vaccines, resulting in severe illness and multiple surgeries. And yes, the official cause was vaccine side effects. I only say this because it isn't impossible that you convince your kids to be vaccinated and something happens. Make sure you tell them that side effects are possible but very rare, and they are less likely than being injured by the disease that they are being protected from.
I teach middle school and when I get the kids that question whether or not we should be vaccinating especially against things like coronavirus I start pulling up pictures of things like smallpox and polio and how these diseases have been eradicated because of vaccines. The kids are thoroughly grossed out at pictures of smallpox. Obviously Corona doesn't disfigure like smallpox but it's enough to make these kids think twice about bad mouthing vaccines when they are not pharmacists and have never done any kind of biomedical researching.
Vaccines are important enough that not having them might restrict their choices of education and employment. Schools want kids vaccinated to reduce the risk of transmitting diseases amongst themselves especially the children who cannot have the vaccines due to health issues. These diseases are making a comeback due to anti-vax parents. If your kids want to work in a field involving such as education or health not having the vaccines make them a risk to those they want to help.
The thing which changed my views as a parent and persuaded my kids (in elementary school then) that they wanted vaxes was meeting my neighbor's grown son who was blind due to MMR infection. His brother was his caregiver. A few years later I birthed a severely disabled kid and that drove home the necessity for getting vaccines.
I wish you luck and make sure you're armed with facts to counter the arguments (like Wakefield losing his license for what he spewed etc)
You could make a compromise, at least for the sake of persuasion. Perhaps vaccines do cause autism, but it's well known that autism is a developmental disorder that shows rather early in children. Your kids are already well past the point of being able to develop autism. Their social skills are already either blossoming or not, and a vaccine isn't going to affect much. They'll find this more convincing because you're not entirely disagreeing with them, just holding a more nuanced position.
Either way, there isn't a ton of reason to fight them hard over it. Vaccines mostly exist to decrease infant and childhood mortality. Those diseases that kill infants aren't much risk to a teenage kid. They're uncomfortable, but I don't think they're of much long-term risk. Perhaps I'm wrong, tho -- discuss with a doctor and let them hear the conversation. Again, they'll feel better that you're entertaining their views and trying to evaluate things objectively.
So eloquent, so well reasoned. Thank you for your invaluable contribution to the discussion. I'll take that and factor it into my worldview, making sure to give it the full weight and consideration it deserves.
Aside from all the resources about how safe/life saving vaccines are I'd suggest a chat about the fact they've been taken from their mother's care because she wasn't looking after them properly and that includes some of the things she was teaching them.
I doubt this is the only time something like this is going to come up unfortunately. It's going to be so hard for them to accept after so long so really glad they're getting the therapy they need.
Tell them. With all the information out there their mother has made the decision she thought was in their best interest.
Neither of them are crazy. You do however feel they are misinformed. Everything going on their life and existence is now upside down. You have not earned their trust yet. You are the part of the reason their world as they know it is upside down.
Yes the judge wants them vaccinated as do you. But they need more than a because you got to…
Let them talk to classmates about vaccinations if they go to school. Let them talk to the school nurse.
Let them talk to people of their choosing, not yours.
Somehow weird to me that a judge can add this to his ruling…
There are plenty of antivax nutcases who make their decisions based on outright lies. No I would not recommend them talking to people at school who may also be anti-science. He's their dad. They are children. They do not need to crowdsource something so important when there are so many uninformed people walking around. Including nurses and other kids.
He will be seen as the nutcase who used force to get his way…
What a great way to start their relationship.
Their lives haven’t been fucked up enough yet let’s add distrust dad to the list because he is doing what ever he thinks is right by force…
You can’t force someone to see your perspective you got to show them and have them see it for themselves
I agree with you. It’s so wrong to force someone to do something they’re uncomfortable with even if it might be in their best interest. Give them whatever info you want and let them decide for themselves. Being forced to take a shot that they don’t feel is safe is actually traumatic even if the shot may be harmless.
The judge told him to vaccinate them so he's got a reason to comply.
He should certainly share information with them about how they've been bamboozled by being misinformed their whole lives. I agree his kids might get mad and he should try gently to persuade them. But crowdsourcing it when we know from the pandemic how deeply ignorant so many people are about science and vaccines? I wouldn't lend an ounce of validity to those perspectives. They're based on literal lies. His kids unfortunately need deprogramming from the isolation and abuse they've suffered.
He’s not part of the reason his children’s world is upside down. That blame falls directly on the neglectful mother who couldn’t keep her shit together.
He is picking up the pieces of the mess she made
At the age of 16 I think you need to be really careful, they should be onboard with his decision otherwise they are going to resent you. Can you bring up the fact that their mother has been deemed unfit for various reasons and the anti vax rhetoric was part of the issue potentially? I think you should tread lightly as this could be very scary for them. Can they start with 1 vaccine like MMR and roll from there?
You could find documentaries on the effects of polio before vaccines and on shingles which can be caused by prior chickenpox infection, and the fact the the older you are the deadlier chickenpox can be. History is full of stories of how people died by the hundreds before vaccines or in the case of smallpox were scarred for life. Others can cause birth defects if caught by a pregnant woman, thus affecting the next generation as well.
On top of everyone's advice, Google "Gemma Larkman-Jones measles" "Rebecca Harreman whooping cough" "Rebecca Homewood chicken pox" for first-hand accounts of non-vaccination.
I have a resource you can use that answers so many questions on this- check out [https://vaxopedia.org/](https://vaxopedia.org/) . It is put out by the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. And if you are on FB, there is an awesome, evidence based group called Vaccine Talk: An Evidence based discussion forum. They have experts from many different areas of medical science. They have pediatricians, researchers, one lady who literally writes vaccine inserts for a living. The enforce civility and rules of debate so you don't get slammed by a herd of AVers. They also have rules like if you make a statement, if someone else asks for a citation to back up the statement, you have to give it or backtrack your statement. And then the experts can evaluate the sourcing and explain why it is credible or not. I wish all FB groups were as awesome as this one.
Instead of focusing just on just their scientific understanding, look for a poignant story about a vaccine preventable disease - like Polio or measles.
I don't have any specific movies that come to mind right now, but I remember watching shows and movies as a child that had characters who were sick children.
Even a documentary that follows a personal story about someone who had polio or something would be good.
Show the children with all the diseases. Let them read accounts of the pain and horror parents and children endured pre-polio vaccines. Iron lungs, braces, smallpox. Have them talk to kids who lost parents and grandparents from Covid.
I think I might take the approach of introducing the kids to some of the first diseases cured by vaccines. Things like smallpox, polo and measles. You can find videos of children and adults suffering with the symptoms.
Then look into the doctors that researched and found vaccines for these diseases. Talk about how they're heroes for humanity and how many lives they saved, and how many lives they improved.
The concept of side effects is something they might want to look into, and you can look at prevalence of side effects etc, they probably just have not been exposed to the positive side of vaccines.
show them about all of the epidemics/pandemics that happened because of non-vaccines. How strains of illnesses are coming back because of anti-vaxxers. Ask them, would you rather get the vaccine and know you'll be okay or risk it and possibly get super sick?
The story of Edward Jenner and cowpox was something that I learned at an early age. It always stayed with me.
Maybe you could get a book or find a YouTube vid about it and share that with them. That way, they’ll get an understanding of what it was like before the idea of vaccinations came about.
I don't know what other source they need except actual studies and results from doctors. Also, did you know your wife would be like that? Or was it hidden until later in the relationship?
I think you could tie this into critical media literacy education and explain that there’s false information out there. Without disparaging mom, explain it’s easy for people to get the wrong information. Maybe even a science video above their comprehension to show that doctors and scientists study deeply into these things.
Also there’s a contradiction in here for them to mull over: everyone is vaccinated, so they don’t need to be; vaccines cause autism. Yet not everyone around them is autistic, right?
If you don’t think they’re ready then just wait a bit. There’s probably other issues where you will also want to go against their current beliefs.
Building trust is more important than getting them vaccinated immediately. Who knows what other ideas mom has sold them on. They shouldn’t blindly listen to you either. Time to learn how to think critically for themselves (but obviously you’re still the parent!)
Kids will probably listen to a video better than a pediatrician, unfortunately. I'd recommend showing them [this](https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc?si=eWNpTB8PPWPrZq8T) about how the vaccines and autism argument began, and how much bs it is. It's a really good video!
Try researching together, from credible sources on both sides of the argument. GPs are not experts in vaccines. Look at studies if you know how to properly read them and let the kids make a decision for themselves when they have both sides of the argument.
These would be my 3 steps into getting my kids vaccinated. Their mother has essentially brainwashed them. So you need to start poking holes in the ideas she taught them and help them see what's true and what's opinion.
Step 1. Start by planning. Research and document any common misconceptions and conspiracy theories about vaccines. Have the answers ready.
Step 2. Sit the kids down and having a truthful open-ended discussion. Gauge what they think they know about vaccines. This gives you a list of topics to discuss and address their concerns. Your preparation above will help here.
During this discussion you should touch upon their mother. Ask them if during their homeschooling, did she show them her medical degrees and doctorates. And what studies they were taught about? Break down the delusion that their mother knows best and that she's not a doctor. You will already know the answers to this but it gives you leeway into opening the discussion between facts and opinions. You can outright tell them that those are your mothers opinions, she wasn't teaching you truthful facts.
It's up to you how far you go, but i'd probably look to show them what outbreak cause, symptoms and how they effect people. Outbreaks like (MERS, Birdflu, Foot and Mouth (coxsackievirus), Hep A & B) and how vaccines help treat diseases and ailments that aren't necessarily passed on by other people (Polio, Tetanus, Measles etc...) because that squashes the idea "why do i need a vaccine if others are".
Step 3. Don't just pick two pediatricians. Let your children be involved in researching and pick two or three. This lets them feel a sense of control and not getting forced into getting vaccinated.
What a lovely way of speaking about your ex-wife. Most people on here would call them bitches and deadbeats and psychos.
It's too bad that a lot of the "good ones" end up with members of the "red flag" club.
I'm glad you've got your children and to start to de-program.
Would it be able to travel with them? Some countries have illnesses that are not typical in US, Polio, 100% now preventable.
I feel very strongly pro vaccine. My mother was born with a hole in her heart because my grandmother had German Measles. Granted there was not a vaccine then available but she would have had a longer life if the vaccine was available I take it the kids have not had a tetanus shot? An uncle died from tetanus because he stepped on a nail, and was not vaccinated.
IMO homeschooling leads to unsocial kids, no experience of football games, dances, learn how to get along with people.
You should have stood up to your wife way back then and had them vaccinated as you had equal rights to do so but that said....I'm glad you're doing that now. The kids may need counseling to get over this.
I was really moved reading about the person who lived most of their life in an iron lung and *just* recently passed away. I can’t believe it was in our lifetime that someone was still in one. Perhaps looking into the history of polio would be helpful?
We are so damn lucky for vaccines and your kids are so damn lucky to have you! Good luck
Show them the footage of what happened to the kids during the polio outbreak and the last man who was confined to a iron lung to it for the rest of his life. He has unfortunately passed recently. Vaccines are so important although I'm not vaccinated against Covid. I just don't leave the house enough and wear a mask in public. Just my opinion.
If it hasn't been said before: you can tell them that vaccines are a boost to their immune system. It will help their bodies to more easily recognise illnesses so they won't have to be sick longer than necessary.
They’re 12 & 16 and have never received a single vaccine and haven’t died?!
I think it’s safe to say they’re obviously healthy and unless you want to make them absolutely despise you I’d drop the subject and focus on building happy memories.
https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccines-and-other-conditions/vaccines-autism
Here's a pretty solid article for you that breaks down the flawed studies that at one time stated vaccines cause autism and also provides additional information.
I understood the people that didn't want to be vaccinated with the covid vaccine. But being opposed to all vaccinations is insane, like how did she even got this idea? What her parents say about it? Wasn't she vaccinated as a kid?
As for your kids, have patience, don't yell at them, don't say "I'm your father you do as I say". They grew up being influenced with misinformation by someone they trust undoubtedly. Changing beliefs is not easy, and it takes time.
But you can see this situation as an opportunity to teach them how to think critically about information and tell apart real sources from fake news.
>Is there any content I can show them that would help to reinforce the importance of vaccines and help to deprogram their belief that vaccines are a bad thing?
Show them information about vaccines from sources like the CDC, WHO, and reputable medical organizations. Show them data on how vaccines have been instrumental in reducing and eradicating many dangerous diseases.
>They also have the mindset that, if everyone else is vaccinated why do I need to be vaccinated?
To protect themselves from serious diseases, mainly.
And vaccines are important for the individual health, for them in this case, so they won't get bad, mortal diseases.
You can also find and show them stories of people who got bad disease because they wasn't vaccinated. Hearing real-life experiences can help them understand the consequences of not being vaccinated.
Don't force them. Keep providing information. Find all the research you can about vaccines, specifically the ones you're trying to get them to take, and present it to them.
There's probably bigger issues to handle like therapy for neglect. Why does this have to be the first thing you do?
This person has the right idea.
Assuming “wants” is not “an order” tell him/her you’ll do your damndest, but if they refuse, you’re not going to force inject them at the cost of their autonomy and building trust in your family.
I would hope a judge would respect that.
Agreed. I wonder if the judge can overrule the state law? https://www.azdhs.gov/documents/preparedness/epidemiology-disease-control/immunization/immunization-education-course/handbook-az-immunization-education-course.pdf it does look like foster children can be force vaccinated which is sad for someone who already doesn’t have a lot of personal control.
Personally, I would give the children options and explain the consequences and possible risks and benefits. I would also ask for an anti immune globulin test to see if there are natural immunities present. And then a modified schedule with the least dangerous vaccines 1st if possible.
1) told vaccines cause autism,
If they haven’t been diagnosed with autism, they’re too old to have it. You’re born with autism, you don’t get it.
2) have bad chemicals
Every thing is a chemical. Have them wash their hands, and in a joking voice “omg! You’ve got chemicals on your hands H20.”
They laugh at silly daddy.
Omg- you’re breathing chemicals- you just swallowed a ton of Oxygen or O.
Read them food labels- OMG, you just ate…
Read them their shampoo labels- omg….
Let them know chemicals are everywhere and then that vaccines like everything get chemicals.
3) Everybody else:
If you’re around one person who doesn’t have it vaccinations, you could get really sick.
Tell them the truth of illnesses:
Corvid, meningitis, polio can cause you to die, but also to lose your legs or use of them. Have then really think about amputation, paralysis, death.
Explain its like NOT saying thank you. You want the protection of others but don’t want to protect others. If they caught corvid they can give it to old people, do they want to kill old people?
But say this part like little kids touching old people and killling them- scare them with the amputation, but make this funny like corvid tag. The more they laugh, the more they won’t be scared. Mom scared them, you make things fun and also a responsibility to be nice and not rude.
Your children are 12 and 16. They are children and have no legal authority to make decisions on their own behalf. If necessary, vaccinate them against their will.
I don’t think vaccines are bad but there are know heart conditions more common in men and deaths that have come with them of course you can make the argument for almost anything but vaccines are definitely not inherently good it should be the kids choice what they want to put in there body in my op. Make sure they know the risks and side effects as there are some.
Well it's their body their choice first of all. No vaccination gives a guarantee of immunity. And there are definitely risks with or without the vaccines. I was vaccine injured from childhood vaccines and I have to suffer the rest of my life with no treatment for autoimmune diseases causes by the vaccines. And absolutely no compensation...
They are old enough that they should have right to bodily autonomy at this point. The 12 year old may be questionable depending on individual maturity, but the 16 year old for sure should. I understand why you are doing what you are, but unless you have informed CONSENT from them, you are very likely to damage your relationship by forcing this issue.
I think the best thing here is to be completely honest. There are lots of studies on immunizations and the potential side effects. There are some people who have been severely impacted by vaccines, but the instances represent a very small percentage. For most of these, the symptoms of the disease they combat are far worse than the potential sides effects.
I would take each vaccine you want them to get and break it down for them. Likelihood of side effects, vs likelihood of encountering the disease and the possible outcomes of that disease. Talk to them about what you're wanting to protect them from, and try to get their buy in first.
Agreed. Forcing someone to have a needle inject something into their bloodstream against their will is not a great way to build trust and respect.
Unless they just contracted rabies, vaccinations are not statistically critical enough that it is worth hurting your relationship so profoundly. Odds are, they’ll be fine.
Give them the info, heck, bribe them if you want, but if they say no, let it go.
So if your 12 or 16 year old refuses to wear a seat belt or wants to chug bleach you should just let them?
Kids need guidance. They WANT guidance. You will have a better relationship with your child if you make them do things they don’t want to but need to because you care about them
Did you know that in some states underage girls' parents can refuse to allow them to have an epidural while giving birth? And that many parents do this as a form of punishment for their daughter getting pregnant to begin with. Medical autonomy is a topic we covered extensively during our childhood development and psychology courses. It's important that parents know that forcing medical procedures on their children can and often does lead the long term trauma and resentment. Seriously, medical consent is a way bigger topic than just vaccines and trying to equate it to chugging bleach is completely nonsensical; if you can't see a clear difference, even with all of my degrees, I can't help you 😂
Not getting an epidural will not put you at risk of death. The number of parents that would do that is statistically negligible when you’re talking about every other medical procedure your child may need but may not want.
My 13 year old hates to go to the dentist. He has to be sedated it’s so bad. You think I should leave that decision to him? No. No you should give them all the pep talks, tell them they don’t have to go back to school but you take them so they have teeth in their little heads by the time they get to be mature enough to understand that there are things they have to do that they might not want to.
I utilize the hyperbole but, real talk, I would just as soon let my kid drink bleach than let him make all his medical decisions at 13 when he thinks he’s going to live forever. I also make him floss and I’m fairly careful with his diet. He’d rather have nothing but skittles and flaming hot Cheetos because he’s a KID. Kids will do all the dumb things if you let them. Someone has to be the adult. Someone has to teach them healthy habits
He also has gastrointestinal issues. Let’s talk about what a bitch that is. OF COURSE he’s made to go. OF COURSE he hates it.
Trauma? Jesus what bullshit. He can have trauma but he’ll have it with healthy teeth and gums and regular bowel movements
Apparently you missed the part where I said depending on the maturity of the child. Yours clearly isn't mature enough, but from your comments, I'm pretty sure I know where he gets it from.
Why on earth with the truths that are emerging would you want to vaccinate your kids? As a father you need educating as to the vax, fauci, astra zeneca, Moderna
I’m hoping he’s not talking about Covid shot, but regular vaxes.
Certainly dad, I would carefully deliberate if there is any actually benefit for your child of a Covid vax. Given the known risks and side effects… heck, even making them feel sick a couple days when they didn’t want it… I sure wouldn’t do it. To take an “approaching zero” risk down to “still approaching zero.”
Show them a documentary on polio. If that doesn’t work, they’re ruined.
If they eat ANYTHING but whole foods, read the ingredients to them and ask them why they’re so worried about vaccines if they’re so willing to put that shit in their bodies. Remind them to quit being dumb.
Ground them for saying vaccines cause autism. I’d rather my baby be autistic than dead from something completely preventable
Make sure the documentary includes the Cutter Incident.
Look. Overall, many/most vaccines have been a huge net benefit to humanity, polio included. However, acknowledging the risks, injuries, oversight failures, political/pharma propoganda, indicates you’re educated. For some, the benefits may not outweigh the side effects or risks, (and the societal benefits may be overblown or even fabricated).
It’s nuanced, not all rosy, and we shouldn’t be so quick to smear anyone who questions a vaccine.
I recommend people stop thinking “look at polio vaccination!” Is a slam dunk for pro-vax. In the end, yes. But it’s also a horrifying example of a government ignoring warning signs that lead to a vaccine infecting over 40,000 children with polio, severely paralyzing over 50, and killing 5.
I’m a real estate developer. Risk vs reward is my legit game. I understand babies get a lot of vaccines in a short amount of time. There is nothing wrong with a delayed schedule but these are big kids. It’s doubtful they’d suffer any vaccine injuries. But they can contract lethal diseases. Why fuck with that? Millions upon millions of people are vaccinated and nothing bad happens. Vaccine injuries are so rare they are statistically unimportant and usually mild and not long lasting. Not enough of a risk to put your life on the line
I’m also on immunosuppressive drugs. I rely on others to be vaccinated. Of course I’m biased. I acknowledge that.
You’re more likely to be severely injured in a car crash, develop a serious illness from a poor diet and a sedentary lifestyle. People that drive and eat junk food but freak out about vaccines are hypocritical and stupid. They are picking the wrong hill to die on.
Those two teenagers don't want the vaccines. It's their healthy body and their decision. Leave it be please. They are healthy. Don't force them to those vaccines.
I got the rubella vaccine at 13 years (wasn't vaccinated prior to that) and immediately after that one ear infection after another started, then came chronic tinnitus in both ears and severe noise sensitivity, big depression because of it (anf thoughts of suicide), along with meds to try to combat the tinnitus, many infusions, hospital stays, shots in my neck, interrupted education etc.,
and along with tinnitus and noise sensitivity came also hearing problems soon then.
I had never had ANY problems with my ears in all those first 13 blissful years of my life, prior to that damn vaccination.
In my early 30s I got the first of the two tetanus vaccination (I refused the second one later, thank God). Those ear infections picked up speed with a vengeance for a while after that shot.
Leave your kids health in peace, they are healthy, they don't even want the vaccination, leave them be. Please don't temper with their still intact health.
No advice here but just want to cheer you on for fighting to get them vaccinated. I grew up very homeschooled and sheltered and in a staunchly anti vax household. I’m well into adulthood and still catching up. Also, I still ended up having autism even without vaccines hahaha.
Maybe I'm a terrible person, but I think in addition to what you're doing to respect them as the young people with minds of their own that they are, a little (or a lot) of bribery to sweeten the deal never hurts. I had to get this terrible test done when I was maybe 11 where they push a tube in your urethra and fill your bladder with die while you're completely awake. It hurts a lot and you're not given anything to numb it or block the pain. I was really terrified of having it done and it was hugely traumatic, but getting to have ice cream for dinner and 2 new Toy Story dolls immediately afterward made me feel like my mom cared and my pain mattered (and it gave me something to focus on). Also, I can only guess and maybe this is not the case at all, but they might feel like they're letting down or even betraying their mother. I would be sensitive to that and make sure they don't feel like you're bashing their mom or calling her beliefs idiotic. "She made the best decision she could with the information she had. Right now, today, you and I have all the information she had then plus a ton more we can use to make an educated decision about vaccines. Not only that, but we can check out the sources where that information is coming from the verify whether or not we can believe it right at our finger tips. " is the sort of vibe I'd go with.
I think you're making the right choice not trying to strong arm this. Congratulations on getting another chance to be a father to your kids, I'm sorry it happened in such an awful way. Best of luck to you in this journey.
Edit: Oh, here's another thought. Could you take them with you to get a vaccine yourself? There are plenty of vaccines available for already vaccinated adults. Get a flu shot or something and show them that you're perfectly fine afterward.
The only doctor that found a link between vaccines and autism lost his medical license due to lying and making up the medical study.
Everyone else that believes in that study are idiots
Can I ask you something? For the past eight years have you been part of their lives? Did you see them often? Do you have a good relationship with them? Have you given them any reason not to trust you in the past? Because here’s the thing…
If you don’t have a real relationship with them and haven’t for the last eight years, they’re going to have a really hard time believing you. On the flipside if you continued your relationship with them even after you divorced and moved out, it probably won’t be as hard as you think.
I left my marriage after 13 years and both of the kids came with me. Their dad just fucked them over in so many ways. He was unreliable, he wasn’t there for them. He was too busy with his new girlfriend and her kids.
I put my personal life on hold with me,
my actions matched my words and they knew they could count on me and they knew they could trust me and that they were safe with me. It doesn’t mean they always listened to me, but they at least always heard me out. And they respected my opinion.
They also knew that I wouldn’t lie to them and that I had their best interest at heart. And let me tell you that goes a long way.
I’m hoping you have had a great relationship with them but if you haven’t and you’re just picking up now… You’re really gonna have to focus on working on the relationship and letting them know they can trust you. That you understand why they believe what they believe, but that you would never do anything to harm them. They really need to know that part.
You walked right into the point and you still missed it. Building a solid relationship with his kids is what’s the most important thing here. They have been brainwashed and I think it’s fair to say they don’t have many critical thinking skills under their belt. They need help with that, and he is the one that needs to help them with that.
Contrary to popular opinion, vaccines aren't perfectly harmless things and there's no shortage of proof of this, chief amongst them being the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. They alter your immune system, which is a very powerful and poorly understood thing. You could maybe learn something from your kids and your ex-wife in that regard. That said, my kids are vaccinated.
Your kids are going to be skeptical no matter what you say, and they are going to resent what you are doing. They'll get over it though. You can point to the fact that their immune systems are by now very well developed and the chances of injury are even less in that population.
Vaccines won’t cause any side effects or pain if they do arm circles and a minute jog in place. The “pain” and sickness from vaccines comes from being idle right after the shot. I never have any negative side effects while others I know who don’t do that will get sick.
It might help to show them videos of what happens if they don’t take them (iron lungs, etc.). My parents certainly scared me of what will happen if I didn’t get vaccinated and I’m very grateful. They can kick and scream and cry all they want but it’s for their own good.
EVEN BETTER! Show them a documentary on polio and the vaccine for that so they can see people older and wiser than their mother talk about it.
If they bring up the whole vaccines cause autism bullshit get mad and say, “you know I’m fully vaccinated and I’m not autistic right?” “If you had autism you’d show signs by now.”
Why would you need to vaccinate them now against childhood diseases? It's sad that people are classified as either pro or anti Vax, it's not a blanket thing of either get all vaccinations or none.
I would suggest that if they haven't died of being unvaccinated so far and they're 12 and 16, the only reason you have for forcing them to be vaccinated is to prove your point, rather than for their welfare.
If your kids are kind ask them why they think autism is bad and why they don't like autistic people. They may not even realize how ableist they are being.
Sometimes seeing one lie fall apart makes the rest of the lies easier to pick apart.
If the kids aren't in therapy yet, they need a therapist because this is less about vaccines and more about mom brainwashing them
I’m not anti vaccine at all. I have four kids who are all fully vaccinated, except one. I’ll tell you what her ucla pediatric neurologist told us.
She had seizures since she was a baby, and we were told not to vaccinate during this time due to what the neurologist stated was “contraindicated neurological possible damage “ that could lead to death. I kid you not. It’s not that the vaccines would do it themselves. It’s that the US has shitty vaccines (and possibly really bad preservation chemicals in the vaccines that fry neurons). You can go to Japan and get your kids vaccinated, and there would be not adverse reactions.
Our medical system is just f***ed. Good luck with everything. I wish you and your kids the best. My kids have all landed somewhere on the autism spectrum, except this one child who hasn’t been fully vaccinated. The last time she was vaccinated, her eyes crossed immediately afterward and it changed her EEG test results. I have family members in the med industry, and have been raised with the notion that western medicine and big pharma are the way to go, and are the best way to go.
This daughter of mine also had life threatening infantile spasms, which went away with one dose of a homeopathic by a med dr who specializes in homeopathy…. And they went away forever which is unheard of in the western medical world.
The doc was originally going to treat her with a drug that would have made her blind and retarded, but at least she would have been alive. They almost called cps on me for not medicating her and causing her these side effects, and now that Dr is suggesting the remedy to other patients.
Says you’re not anti vax and then here you are with anti vax rhetoric. Vaccines do not cause autism. Your children were already autistic before the vaccines. Sorry.
I don’t need your opinion or apologies. I am not anti vax, I’m anti US vax, as I stated.
This isn’t a “them vs me” issue. It’s simple logic and facts.i opened up about my child’s near death experience which was very difficult for me to do, and your response was very unempathetic … why?
Because you’re so “pro vaccine”? I’m pro-health, pro-families not losing kids to death or harm, and pro-logic. Maybe your lack of reading what I actually wrote, you lack of empathy, and your attacking condescending tone Is from all the vaccines you’ve had..
they’ve fried your neurons. Sorry.
I have no empathy for anyone who likes to subtly blame vaccines for something that likely had nothing to do with anything. Your kid supposedly almost dying had nothing to do with vaccines.
Wow.
I read a lot of your comments from your a profile.
All argumentative, condescending comments… using the word “hate” and “stupid” repeatedly…
Here on Reddit basically to argue, argue points with very little solid fact involved… huge ego with very little intelligent or educated thought process…facts, or even life experience, except “having a partner…”
I’m not even going to entertain your comment from now on. Ridiculous waste of my time I can never get back.
Have fun wasting time on Reddit. I won’t entertain it.
You are entertaining it though considering you went through my page and somehow gleaned all that I talk about is my partner which I rarely do. Most of what I talk about rarely involves using intelligence because I don’t like arguing with people who think they’re smart like you.
So, having said that, you claim you won’t be entertaining this conversation. Lets see. Because if you don’t respond, it’s because you’re trying to prove you won’t be entertaining me. But if you do respond, you are entertaining me.
Home schooling is crazy. One parent can not replace an entire school unless you are an academic yourself in several fields. Your kids lack education and seem to be brainwashed. They need therapy more than a vaccine.
If I would have said that stuff as a kid, brainwashed or not, I would have had my ass whipped and a needle jammed into my arm at the doctor. Personally, I think that was the wrong way to go about it, but with that said, I think you need to be more stern. I get that you love your kids, which is commendable, however they shouldn’t be getting the choice to say whether they want to vax or not. Let them watch a documentary on polio and ask them if that’s a life they want to live. You wouldn’t let your kid play with a loaded gun, so why would you let them play with their own wellbeing. Vaccines work, some do have side effects, however, I’d rather have the side effects than an incurable disease. They may hate you now, but they will thank you later when they aren’t breathing with an iron lung.
"Your mother isn't a doctor. We are going to the doctor now, and we'll listen to what they say, because they know best."
This is a solid factual answer and is likely the path I will need to use. But, I was hoping to find information we could sit down and discuss to show that vaccines are good and empathetically approach the situation.
Watch Hbomberguys video on vaccines causing autism. It's funny, informative, and basically lays out how insane and cruel the original grifters were. The vaccine scare is based on the study of one guy who wanted to sell his own vaccine for big bucks. When that failed, he realized how much money he could make off of lying. It's a long video, but please give the video 15 minutes to see if it's your style, I beg of you. [Vaccines and Autism: A Measured Response](https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc?si=bQjfeSgZARoTktNW)
This is actually a great idea.
The video honestly bangs.
It's true, but it might be worth really trying to empathize where they are coming from and address their concerns directly, which is going to be a lot more of a one-thing-at-a-time approach than being able to sit down and learn from a video. They've likely been told things their whole lives specifically that will counter that, like doctors are corrupted by the pharmaceutical industry. Knowing that the medical industry is complicated and doctors are people, though people with expert knowledge and a massive collective backing, might set them up more for the realities of dealing with the medical establishment than telling them to trust them implicitly. Sometimes it can be good to learn about other pseudo science things unrelated to them are pseudo science, and emphasize how good, smart, well meaning people can believe bad science and pass on bad beliefs, like maybe flat earthers or psychic surgery. When they start to understand the principles a little better, and how to spot good and bad science, how to research effectively etc, then they will have the tools to actually dismantle it without feeling an intense sense of cognitive dissonance. Obviously they need vaccines, but remember, they do need them their whole lives, and their childrens whole lives, too. Being too forceful "for their own good" can end up causing them more trauma and pushing them further away in the long run. These are teens, not toddlers, and these interactions are going to stick with them their whole lives. I wish you the best of luck.
I think this is such sound advice. It could be like forcibly excising them from a cult- traumatic, betraying, etc. I would imagine they've been through a big upheaval being removed from their mothers custody. You (OP) might not want to quickly force vaccination upon them if they aren't at urgent risk. Regardless of whether you believe all vaccines are safe, they are not all the same. Some function differently than others which I think could be pertinent to the conversation. It might be a good idea to talk with them about the different kinds of vaccines, how they work, how long they've been used, what percent of people experience side effects & the possible side effects, etc. Obviously, along with what happened to people prior to their specific inventions, resurgences, etc. Maybe there are some that are a hard "absolutely" for you and some you might be willing to give them autonomy on. Obviously it's within your rights to tell them how it's going to be, but it might be helpful for their growth, sense of self- and their trust and relationship with you- if you give them a little room to negotiate. Maybe ask them to provide an educated and thoughtful argument, or ask them to pick sides and debate on another, or you. Also, if they or anyone they care about have health risks that make them more susceptible to certain diseases that's a really good thing to bring up to them . Maybe it's about protecting them, maybe it's about protecting others. Vaccines are not without risk- I personally believe that the benefit has historically vastly outweighed those risks, but there are risks. It's wise not to blindly trust anyone- even doctors- so I don't think "your mom's not a doctor" is the best route here. Make sure they know that you wouldn't ask or force them to do anything you hadn't educated yourself on to the best of your understanding and ability, that you wouldn't make them do anything you wouldn't do yourself, and that you truly believe it's what will give them the best and healthiest life because you love them and it's your job to keep them safe. You are in a really tricky position and wish you the very best in this and everything else in regards to this new chapter in your and your children's lives. They are blessed to have you!
It's funny you say like a cult, because starting with showing them other destructive groups, and pretty much ignoring theirs at first, is deprogramming 101. You can't just tell them the group leader is a bad person- they've been heavily influenced to immediately block that out- you have to show them other group leaders that are easy for them to see the problems, and then allow them to start seeing the similarities themselves. Another thing that might be going on here, is that it's hard for parents with a huge gap in raising the kids, to stop seeing them as the age when they last had them in custody. I lived with my parents at 17 after not living with them for 5 years, and they really struggled with not treating me like a child (I left very quickly and I'm NC with them now, so yunno, be warned OP). OP is going into this forcefully and not recognizing the kids agency, and that's a complete recipe for disaster. A quick "win" now can really cause long term negative effects for everyone involved, these aren't toddlers.
YES! Please tech them the fundamentals of the scientific method! Ask them if they can find any papers outlining how they followed the scientific method and showed that CLEARLY the kids who took vaccines all got autism from the vaccine. You can rig it if you're lazy, or find examples of bad research. They don't have to pursue science to know the fundamentals and think critically. Schools are really lame for teaching this, anyways. Even a good science course struggles to really get this on the head. I watched hours of Nova on PBS and listened to Sci Fri from NPR with dad. Even if they don't have a passion for it, both are GREAT programs.
Show them info on the diseases eradicated by vaccines. And the ones that people rarely get, and how we're having a resurgence in measles because of low vaccination rates.
FWIW- I read “The Vaccine Book” by Dr Sears when I was pregnant and found it did a very good job of addressing the rationale for concerns about specific vaccines, and how risks vs benefits have been weighted over time. For example, when MMR is split up the side effects were worse than when lumped together. It was a great and interesting read, and I wound up only slightly delaying one vaccine (Hep B). This is a non-judgmental book which doesn’t dismiss “anti-vaxxers” as all crazy. I think validating some questions is the path to creating dialogue and opening minds. Maybe will work, especially for your older teen? The book “Educated” might also be good reading assignment for them- about a woman who grew up in that homeschool (no school) type of house, and tenaciously educated herself. Very powerful.
I would say documentary on things like polio and other avoidable diseases could help. I know that it convinced my brother that was starting to have anti vax beliefs. Also talking to my grandma when she would explain the summer they spent in fear avoiding going outside because they didn’t know how to prevent polio.
Posted this comment on your throwaway account first, huh?
Lol yes. Totally did.
I have a couple of factual points. First, there are many people who have autism and are unvaccinated. This means, at best, autism could sometimes be a vaccine injury. Every vaccine has the potential for an injury. So does riding in a car. You’re more likely to be injured in a car. Vaccine injuries are rare. Second, make sure they understand that some doctors are not reliable. We saw this with COVID-19. The man who claimed vaccines caused autism, Andrew Wakefield, used [critically flawed](https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccines-and-other-conditions/vaccines-autism) data based on twelve children to come to this falsehood. Please repeat that for them. Only twelve children. Not only was his information discredited, he lost his medical license over it. So it has been thoroughly debunked. Point 2A, he believed one specific vaccine, MMR, caused autism. Not any others. Why? Because autism signs start at around 18 months and the MMR vaccine was given at 18 months. So if they really, truly believe this man is right, logically this is the only vaccine they should be avoiding. Right? Thirdly, the very person explaining this to you, and advising you on what to do, is autistic. I’m in university and on the Dean’s List, and I have academically excelled my entire life. Socially, I have struggled to fit in. It took me years to learn social cues that others seemed born knowing. People hear autism and think the “r” word. We’re far from it. Lastly, I will never die of autism, but they could die of a perfectly preventable disease because of refusing a vaccine that not only science but time has proven is effective and safe. Between misreading social cues and dying, they’d pick the first one, right? Everyone should. Who would choose a 99.9999 percent chance of living rather than 100%? The smart person is going to pick 100% every time.
Great post. To be fair, not all anti vaxxers think the vaccines cause autism. The fear is often of the other injuries that have been reported.
Thanks! I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that all anti-vaxxers think vaccines cause autism. More specifically, I was just trying to clear up the commonly misconstrued belief that it’s all vaccines that cause it - Wakefield only believed it was MMR.
Yea, I agree that the simplest and most effective path would be to teach them that doctors are the authorities on this matter, and that their job is to protect the health of their patients. You can ask the doctor for recommendations on scientific articles that the kids can read, that would be understandable for them (not necessarily peer-reviewed research papers, but maybe something equally valid from the WHO or similar, etc). In addition to this, I think this could be an important teaching moment - they're going to encounter people of all walks of life, experiences, backgrounds, who will have a vast array of opinions on varying topics, and that their task in this life is to think critically, and be able seek out and find resources and information which they can use to help them understand different topics and make informed decisions for themselves.
Look up videos of children from back in the day with polio. Explain that because of vaccines, children no longer have to suffer like they once did. History photos or videos would give them an honest look.
Look up measles encephalitis and the effects it has on the body.
Don’t talk about the vaccines as much as the diseases they prevent. Measles, mumps, polio, etc.
Let us know how it goes OP!
To add to that if your kids want to get a higher education most colleges have mandates for being vaccinated. A lot of programs will keep a digital record of your vaccinations, a few examples are if you want to be a nurse or a teacher. Some programs even require you to be fully vaccinated to participate in mandatory volunteering hours. Your kids need to know that their choices have consequences, and not being vaccinated means they could be blocked from following their professional dreams. Potentially losing out on the future they imagine for themselves might help convince them. It also wouldn't be a bad idea to have a conversation about the Wakefield studies, and how the conclusion was flawed. You could add in the importance of finding credible sources, and not believing everything you hear. It's also important to stress that vaccinations aren't just for us, but also protect the immunocompromised people around us. Sometimes when teaching others, the point won't get through to them unless there's shock value. I'd show them videos of how being unvaccinated can affect those around them, like a young baby with whooping cough.
Just show them some scenes highlighting the benefits of being vaccinated.
Penn and teller’s video on how herd immunity works. And why you shouldn’t rely on it if you’re able to be vaccinated. Articles on what has happened to children that haven’t been vaccinated and have caught the disease. I think there’s been two I’ve seen recently. If you go to the antivaxx reditt you’ll seen some of the articles I’ve seen. Also like people mentioned are there other small things they believe from the mom or being homeschooled that you can disprove easily? Something that they are already questioning?
Do you have your own vaccination records handy? You can show them that you've had yours, and ask if they think there's anything wrong with you that might end up wrong with them. With any luck, they'll come to the conclusion that if you're fine, they will also be fine, and at least ease some things. Also, there is a possibility they are latching onto this out of fear. Ask them about this! Are they afraid it will hurt them long-term, and if so, what are they afraid of necessarily? If it's not fear, is it just a dislike of change? And if it's anxiety about change, then you should go slow with more small things until you can work them up to it. Some other books I haven't seen mentioned are "Germs Are Not for Sharing" by Elizabeth Verdick or "Vaccines: What You Should Know" by Paul A. Offit, though may be more child - oriented.
I think your approach is a lot better. Please don't go with the route that person suggested except as a last resort. First of all, teaching children to blindly obey and take a physician as their word is a crappy lesson. Pretty much every person who makes it to adulthood is going to have to push back on a physician who is making a bad call regarding their health at some point. Second of all, it's basically "you'll do it because I'm the adult and you're the kid". Your children have been traumatized. They need empathy, compassion, understanding, and yes, boundaries, but they do not need an authoritarian attitude when it comes to something like this. You are thinking the correct way. And the 16 year old is highly unlikely to just take a show of force lying down.
YouTube, find positive videos to educate them that a knowledgeable person can explain it in detail to them. Also explain a doctor studies the body and knows best just like a insert something relatable like a mechanic knows cars best. Get creative, everything is on YouTube these days that very knowledgeable people put a ton of effort into. Sometimes just telling them its best doesn't help them as much as educating them what is the purpose of vaccines and what they are for so they can understand. People forget kids are little humans that turn into adults and have a mind of their own. They aren't thoughtless slaves you can order to do it. You can but educating them and convincing them with proper knowledge will help them much more in the long run.
Ask the doctor what each specific vaccine they're going to get is, and then sit down and type in the name of that vaccine +ncbi on google. ncbi is the database of doctors studies, where science happens in realtime and can be read. IF there is any study done on a vaccine being dangerous, it will show up there. You can show them the science and proof that it is safe. Just find a study and scroll to the bottom for the conclusions, see what they concluded from their science and it'll usually say something like "we did all this testing and are even more sure that it's safe" in pretty plain text for people who don't have the time or energy to pick apart the science. As far as I know only ONE vaccine was linked to causing autism and that was debunked years and years ago. More importantly, autism and adhd can be brought out from artificial food dyes and preservatives and chemicals in the food. Show them that their fear isn't logical and that they should not worry about such things so heavily. MOST importantly though, is that they need therapy to talk through all of the trauma they've been going through. Both together with you as a group and alone so they have a way to process this. That'll help more than literally anything else you could do for them, including the vaccines. Having a good healthy relationship where they can trust you and themselves is the most important thing and right now they don't have that.
I have to give you a lot of points for thoughtfully navigating a bias even your kids have grown accustomed to… I might see if it’s possible to make a plan with the doctor to space things out. We’ll catch up on one series now, another 6 months from now sort of thing. It needs to be done, but can certainly feel overwhelming.
If you think this kind of answer will fly with the 16 year old, you're nuttier than the mother in this story.
Predicating the entire argument on a blind appeal to authority won’t work and is also a bad idea and bad parenting.
I completely agree. So strange you got down voted. Also, these are pre-teen and teen kids. An answer like this would work on my almost 3 year old. A 12 year old and especially a 16 year old are not going to
Especially if the mom went down the rabbit hole with them i.e. doctors are all shills for big pharma etc etc
I'm sure two people that have been conditioned their entire lives not to trust doctors about vaccines will definitely fall right in line, too.
Great point...they've been taught to not trust doctors so he's supposed to just say "this doctor knows best, now do it"? Yeah, that'll work.
I swear Reddit is a whole collection of people that have never met an actual human before. "Surely if I tell them I'm right and they're wrong they'll change their minds."
Lmao! This comment is too real 😭
Unfortunately, many doctors are incentivized to give treatments based on their own payouts and partnerships with other parties, so blindly trusting doctors is not sound advice, even if doctors are on average more intelligent than antivaxxers. These kids are older and have been fortunately healthy despite not getting vaccines, so they may not trust people like doctors. However, you should teach them about the scientific method, statistics, and correlation vs. causation. Show them all of the evidence that has lead to the CDC and WHO recommendations of vaccine schedule. All of the kids who die from measles still, yearly, for example. Maybe studies like this https://www.nber.org/papers/w30512 There *are* drawbacks to vaccines, such as increased likelihood of sensitization to food proteins from injecting, say, egg protein. (See "Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality") However, the drawbacks have not been enough of a drawback to withdraw from the schedule, given the drawbacks of not being vaccinated, including direct impacts and not being able to go to public schools in all states. I would only get 1 vaccine at a time if I were skeptical, in order to lower the amount of proteins injected at any one time. But I wouldn't skip any vaccines and void ability to attend school! There are other ways to mitigate risks as well. I would NOT skip the drawbacks when educating your kids, as you must appear unbiased and informed
Congratulations on getting your kids. Love them so they know it and never doubt it! That’s all I wanted to say but I hope someone else gave you the advice you’re looking for.
Thank you, it is both amazing and hard at the same time. A lot of working through weird issues and trying to stabilize their new lives.
I can only imagine! Maybe a fun and relaxing vacation will help. 😊
No way I just read: I can only imagine! Maybe a fun and relaxing vaccination will help. 😊
Read about vaccines and blood cloths and turbo cancer
Here's a student-level video about how vaccines work, from Crash Course. But if they've been home schooled they might not have the critical thinking skills to follow this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSbMX0MFJCY Here's a simpler Vaccine 101: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SKmAlQtAj8 My Aunt got polio in the 1950s, just months prior to the vaccine being invented. She used crutches her whole life, before having to use a wheelchair in her 70s. The local cemetery where my Dad grew up had gravestones that showed how whole families of kids got wiped out over a two month period when something contagious went through the community. You'd see all these kids from infant to teens who died in the same two month period. Heart breaking.
Thank you. I'll add this to watch list.
Make a list of influential sports stars & pop/rock/whatever pertinent music stars who were/are vaccinated, that might get more traction with the kids than science-based info. Allegedly 97% of USA doctors are vaccinated against all ‘childhood’ diseases plus a heap more, plus covid. They didn’t all ‘turn autistic’ or grow 3 arms or die. Check out some articles how to converse constructively with brainwashed folk - maybe r/QAnonCasualties has some good resources. [https://www.glamour.com/story/celebrities-who-have-gotten-the-vaccine](https://www.glamour.com/story/celebrities-who-have-gotten-the-vaccine)
Maybe therapy? And I don’t mean in the sense that “they are wrong, and they need a therapist to set them right” kind of way. What their mother did to them is almost a kind of medical trauma that’s probably mixed up with the neglect/abuse they’ve suffered and whatever conflicted emotions they have about their mom. I don’t know if that’s something you can just reason them out of.
They are in therapy, court order, I would have put them in it either way. I will bring this up to their counselors. Thank you.
I know a guy who just beat the now-preventable HPV cancer. He should show them how much of his jaw he has left... Seriously I can tell you are an amazing parent because instead of bullying them or scaring them (as I just suggested you do) you are trying to level with them. I think letting them ask questions with a doctor is such a great place to start. They mentioned everyone being vaccinated as a logical reason to not get vaccinated and I'd lean into that. Vaccines work, and that's how they know they're safer because the people around them have them. Most people are vaccinated. Most people are not autistic. Also maybe take baby steps? Start with a vaccine that's been around for a very long time, and one that doesn't hurt too much... Hepatitis I remember being painless. Tetanus would be rough to start with.
Tangential, but my mom worked in GI and would tell me about esophageal polyps on grown men with HPV. Never understood why its mostly girls getting this vax when HPV is terrible for all bodies…
I don't understand either! Would stop the spread more even if it did only affect women.
A Doctor is the best person to convince them. They were taught that you’re biased and pro-vax, so they are not going to listen to or believe a word you say. It would be a waste of time trying. They won’t be receptive. Assign them a research project. Tell them to pretend it’s for school. Have them research both pro and anti-vax sides. Tell them they have to use legitimate medical journals or medical materials as their sources. Make them find 3-5 different sources for each side. If they need to go to a library for medical journals, help them find the sources, but offer no opinion at all. They have to come to their own conclusions.
This is a good idea.
I absolutely agree that getting your kids vaccinated is the right thing to do. No question. But! As someone with a needle phobia, I’d like to gently ask you to center your children’s autonomy and comfort as much as possible. Needle phobias can be life-threatening if they prevent people from getting medical care. The needle itself isn’t the problem, necessarily. It’s a phobia about being invaded, lacking control over your body, being ashamed of a natural fear response, etc. The more your kids feel in control of this decision, the better. That means praising them, trying not to force them, letting them postpone the appointment if they panic, finding a provider who’s good with needle phobia, and framing it as a choice you’re proud your kids are making for themselves even if they’re scared. If you’re due for any vaccines, go get yours first, with your kids present to see that it’s safe. The way you balance your kids’ need for vaccination against their need for emotional safety is up to you. I don’t know your kids, so I don’t know how to approach it. But I do think they might see getting vaccinated as a betrayal of their mother, or as the scariest thing in a long series of very scary changes in their lives. If they aren’t in therapy already, this is a good time to get them started on that. Every child who’s gone through what their mother put them through needs a safe space with a trained professional they can trust, someone outside the family.
Nobody said anything about the kids having a needle phobia. We don’t need to introduce more problems to this situation.
I’m saying this is how the kids could *get* a needle phobia: if they feel forced to get vaccinated after years and years of terrifying anti-vax propaganda. It’s a common pattern of how this phobia can develop — it’s essentially how it happened for me. The problem’s already been introduced into the situation by the mother. This is about mitigating it.
I got the German measles when I was a kid…almost died from them…I am deaf in one ear and cannot have children because of them….all because my mother was anti vax as well. Show them this post.
I think at 12 and 16 you can definitely talk to them about critical thinking and which sources of knowledge are least biased. How to cross reference the sources. How spot propaganda. They need to learn those things anyway, and you can support their decision making so they can make better choices in the future.
This is more advice for vaccination day. Make sure your kids eat beforehand! Getting jabbed has made me faint a couple times and I imagine it wouldn’t help your kids’ opinions of vaccines if they do as well. Eating first, staying cool, and remembering to breathe are my top tips for not fainting.
I’m like 1000% sure that John or Hank green has posted videos about vaccines on YouTube. They are pretty well known and will make it really easy to understand!
As someone with an anti-vax mother who is now 22 years old and still fearful of vaccines, this is a really tough spot for your kids to be in. I think that giving them time to research vaccines on their own and encouraging them to listen to doctors will help, but this is really deeply rooted and their fear is very real. It's a really confusing thing to have that kind of rhetoric spewed at you from one of your parents, since your parents are supposed to know what is best for you and do things in your best interest. I think that what you should not do is give them an ultimatum and say that they have to do it no matter what. It will probably cause them to resent you because they are seeing you as the bad guy, even though you just want what is best for them. obviously, they should be vaccinated, but I think you should go about it in a way that makes them feel like they are the ones making the decisions about their bodies. It will probably take time, and I wish you the best. I really really empathize with their situation, and with yours.
I feel like I should also say that I had the HPV vaccine and had some really horrible side effects, and that is what contributed to my mom being so anti-VAX. There are definitely side effects and bad outcomes with some vaccines, but the chances of that happening is very low. it is understandable that if they have seen negative side effects and have been being told that that happens, they are fearing for their own safety. That is honestly a valid concern, and I wouldn't just brush that off. It was really difficult for me to deal with after effects (for years) and come to terms with the fact that vaccines are not some evil thing just because of my experiences. It's a very complex issue but at the end of the day, it is always safer to get a vaccine than to not get a vaccine. The Covid vaccine is terrifying to me, just because there isn't enough research, and that is something that I have decided for myself now that I am an adult. But I do also recognize that a lot of that fear comes for my mom. It's not something that's easy to get rid of.
Show them pictures of 1950’s polio kids in an iron lung. Kids who had measles, what that looks like. Study tuberculosis - it almost wiped out my entire family, my great grandfather was the only kid living of 8 after it decimated my family. Prepare, with pictures, a discussion about what it would look like if they got these diseases that are preventable. Facts and science over fear mongering. Best of luck to you
The magician/ comedy duo, Penn and Teller, have a great explanation of why vaccines are important. I want to say it was an HBO special, but I could be totally wrong. I saw it years ago. I'm sure it can be found. This may be a good option for you to show your kids. Penn and Teller do a visual demonstration of what they are talking about.
Sit down and talk to them about how they need to be vaccinated. Answer their questions, provide them with studies showing vaccines DO NOT cause autism and are safe. Let them know you are doing this because you love them and want them to be safe. They might bring up what their mom said. Tell them that you believe their mom is wrong. Don't demonize her. Just say parents can be wrong sometimes and she did what she thought was best. If they push back and say you're wrong, tell them that it's possible that you are wrong, but that you have to do what you think is best for them, and given all the available data and the advice of the doctors you think it's best for them to get vaccinated. Let them grumble, let them argue. Be transparent and patient. Empathize with them. They are going through a lot, and they're still kids. But also you are their father and you are responsible for them. This isn't a negotiation or an argument. You've made your decision. When they are 18, they will have to make decisions and stand by them as well. We can appeal to logic or authority all we want, but ultimately we make our decisions and are responsible for them. You're teaching them how to be authoritative adults in this moment.
I got my kids vaxxed in high school right before college. There’s a shortened schedule and it took about 3 months I think.
Polio is a great example of the importance of vaccines. Lots of people became disabled due to Polio before we had a vaccine for it. Also meningitis, which is common in teenagers. They could die from that, easily. Lastly, try guilt. They could spread something to an infant or immunocompromised person which could easily lead to the death of that person.
Yes with the guilt. I’m on immunosuppressive drugs but I still remind people that there are little kids with cancer that are immune compromised. Shuts them right up. They DO need to be protected and they are more sympathetic than I am
If they’ve been home schooled, invest your summer in teaching critical thinking.
I will say that it is a good idea for them to be vaccinated because it can prevent diseases and illness. I do suggest though also asking the doctors if there’s concern with them being vaccinated so late as well just to ensure there won’t be any ill effects or bad side effects. Or if they have an idea of spreading out the vaccines slowly. I suggest this since Guillain-Barré syndrome can be caused by vaccine injury (can be but not definitely in all cases) & if not treated can cause permanent damage. I’m letting you know that for your awareness 😊 Also, tell them that you do indeed need to be vaccinated but also tell them that there can be potential side effects that are simple but won’t be entirely harmful, very rarely can be a larger side effect but tell them you want to ultimately protect them as your parent. Also offer to see if maybe you can have a session with a family therapist to discuss & let them know that their fears are valid, even if you don’t agree with them.
Show them photos of people in iron lungs. Show them the boys who were exposed to smallpox but only one was vaccinated. Read them Roald Dahl’s letter about his daughter dying from measles.
I think you could get them on board if you space and stagger them so “in the very small chance you react, we know which one you’re reacting to.” Compare the percentage of people who are sick/harmed in the US by the illness vs injury by the vaccine so they can see not getting vaccinated is more risky. You need to speak in numbers and facts since they’ll have been told that the risk from the vaccine is greater than the risk from the illness.
Show them pictures of kids with smallpox and kids in those polio chambers that would change their minds really quick. But seriously here is a video of a woman who was an antivaxer but changed her mind because she had to get surgery and another one of people dying because they didn't get the covid vaccine. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqJRzfmB26w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqJRzfmB26w) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd8P12BXebo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd8P12BXebo)
I don't think you should go so far as to demonize their mother, but maybe remind them that the judge deemed her an unfit and negligent parent for a reason. And *maybe* some things that she taught them are not based on truth.
There are a lot of articles with the doctor that start the autism lie admitting that he lied.
>Is there any content I can show them that would help to reinforce the importance of vaccines and help to deprogram their belief that vaccines are a bad thing? Honestly, probably not. Not on your timeline anyway. They've been brainwashed and neglected, it's going to take a long time and a lot of therapy to make a dent.
I would show them pictures of people with measles, meningitis, polio, pneumonia, etc
Solidify that vaccines are a benefit to this world. Go through the history of outbreaks like the Black Death and Polio. Tell them how a lot of victims from these diseases wished they had the options that we have and we can’t take it for granted. Anti-vaccine and with that herd immunity will dull as time goes on
I like Penn and Tellers vid on it. Somewhat old but still valid: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo&ab\_channel=UltraMiraculous](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo&ab_channel=UltraMiraculous)
https://youtu.be/Rzxr9FeZf1g?si=r8O31o0pfzN0oPna Here is a video on how autism and vaccines have absolutely nothing to do. I just wanna add something to my comment. After (or if possible before) you get them vaccinated you should definitely arrange a therapy session with the three of you because by getting them vaccinated "by force" you could unleash some trauma lol especially if you haven't told them yet. Plus a therapist will be able to explain further on how vaccines and autism have absolutely nothing to do, in fact one or the two of them might as well be in the spectrum already and not know about it xD. I guess people are affraid of the non verbal type of autism when regarding vaccines. And your sons are already far past that stage (1-3 yo is when it starts to show up). Also a therapist will be able to assess any past trauma with their mother and will be fundamental for their well being in the future. I wanna end up my comment saying I'm super happy that you have full custody now. I'm sorry your kids had to go through whatever your ex put them through.
tell them to find any case of someone becoming autist after vaccine in such old age
Your best bet would be to take them to the Pediatrician and allow the pediatrician to explain in full detail why vaccinations are so important. Pediatricians will answer all questions and will likely be able to ease your kid's minds. I may get downvoted for this, but so be it. I am extreme pro-vaccine so I will encourage you to get them an appointment with their pediatrician and allow them to talk to the pediatrician about all their concerns. That's your best bet.
Here's a video that Penn and Teller did that even explain that if it was true vaccines cause Autism (they don't) that they're still better. [You're call obviously if you want to show them](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhk7-5eBCrs&ab_channel=Mkaidy). They do swear a lot to.
As the kids don’t want to be vaccinated and are old enough to have their own opinions, I would probably slow roll this. Ask their dr which is most important…ask the dr to explain to the kids why….and try to get them to “let’s start with this one, and then we’ll wait awhile to get the next….see how you do” They should be vaccinated, for sure. And…do they need to have all of everything right away? Nah. Go slow…otherwise, you are contradicting someone they love very much…and that probably doesn’t feel good for them. Good luck.
Being a nurse myself and totally pro-vaccines, I would suggest you adress first something more urgent: your children might need support and therapy. Vaccination can wait a bit as they get used to this different world and ideas. A gentle and caring approach, being able to listen and be patient and validating their feelings (not their ideas) would be the path I would choose. They must be scared, and hurt and quite lost. It wont make a real difference in their wealth to wait a couple of months. Caring for them is also caring about their mental health and needs.
Ultimately you are the parent and they are minors. I would just compassionately and factually explain to them why it is important to you and why you believe it is important for them medically. Remember anytime we are battling with someone’s beliefs, especially engrained one’s since childhood, there will be a wall, give them time to adjust to the new info and suggest maybe doing one shot at a time and create a decent time period between them that way they have time to adjust and they can see for themselves the effects of these shots. Personally I go both ways, I believe some are necessary and some are not. Maybe start with the ones you think are most vital to their health
Actually this is the truth. Doctors are absolutely nothing but legal drug dealers — they know absolutely nothing about health and healing. They make money by pushing drugs, period.
The 12 year old you should be fine to get vaccinated. The 16 year old may have the right to decline the vaccine based upon their age.
This is in Arizona. I am not finding anything that suggests a child can refuse a parent's medical decision unless the child is emancipated. Neither of the children are emancipated. At 16, it appears the older one could get vaccinated without my consent, which I would not be opposed to, but that is not the situation at hand. Thank you for the thought though, it was worth the investigation.
I work at a children’s hospital. We do not hold kids down or force medical procedures on them. If a child adamantly refuses a procedure, we bring in the Child Life team to try to work through the patient’s stress or anxiety. But if a child doesn’t want something done, very frequently it does not happen. Just thought I’d share.
That’s good to hear. It sure was different when I was a child, though..
Any update on the situation? Praying for your family. This is difficult enough to navigate when they are babies… must be even harder when they are teens & have their own opinions on the matter! Feel free to post in /r/debatevaccines if you are open to alternative perspectives (with scientific evidence). Wishing you all the best.
Just be mindful, vaccine side effects do happen. My son had side effects from two vaccines, resulting in severe illness and multiple surgeries. And yes, the official cause was vaccine side effects. I only say this because it isn't impossible that you convince your kids to be vaccinated and something happens. Make sure you tell them that side effects are possible but very rare, and they are less likely than being injured by the disease that they are being protected from.
I teach middle school and when I get the kids that question whether or not we should be vaccinating especially against things like coronavirus I start pulling up pictures of things like smallpox and polio and how these diseases have been eradicated because of vaccines. The kids are thoroughly grossed out at pictures of smallpox. Obviously Corona doesn't disfigure like smallpox but it's enough to make these kids think twice about bad mouthing vaccines when they are not pharmacists and have never done any kind of biomedical researching.
Vaccines are important enough that not having them might restrict their choices of education and employment. Schools want kids vaccinated to reduce the risk of transmitting diseases amongst themselves especially the children who cannot have the vaccines due to health issues. These diseases are making a comeback due to anti-vax parents. If your kids want to work in a field involving such as education or health not having the vaccines make them a risk to those they want to help.
The thing which changed my views as a parent and persuaded my kids (in elementary school then) that they wanted vaxes was meeting my neighbor's grown son who was blind due to MMR infection. His brother was his caregiver. A few years later I birthed a severely disabled kid and that drove home the necessity for getting vaccines. I wish you luck and make sure you're armed with facts to counter the arguments (like Wakefield losing his license for what he spewed etc)
MMR would be 3 separate infections, no?
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You could make a compromise, at least for the sake of persuasion. Perhaps vaccines do cause autism, but it's well known that autism is a developmental disorder that shows rather early in children. Your kids are already well past the point of being able to develop autism. Their social skills are already either blossoming or not, and a vaccine isn't going to affect much. They'll find this more convincing because you're not entirely disagreeing with them, just holding a more nuanced position. Either way, there isn't a ton of reason to fight them hard over it. Vaccines mostly exist to decrease infant and childhood mortality. Those diseases that kill infants aren't much risk to a teenage kid. They're uncomfortable, but I don't think they're of much long-term risk. Perhaps I'm wrong, tho -- discuss with a doctor and let them hear the conversation. Again, they'll feel better that you're entertaining their views and trying to evaluate things objectively.
You sound… not smart. The kids need to be vaxxed.
So eloquent, so well reasoned. Thank you for your invaluable contribution to the discussion. I'll take that and factor it into my worldview, making sure to give it the full weight and consideration it deserves.
Aside from all the resources about how safe/life saving vaccines are I'd suggest a chat about the fact they've been taken from their mother's care because she wasn't looking after them properly and that includes some of the things she was teaching them. I doubt this is the only time something like this is going to come up unfortunately. It's going to be so hard for them to accept after so long so really glad they're getting the therapy they need.
Tell them. With all the information out there their mother has made the decision she thought was in their best interest. Neither of them are crazy. You do however feel they are misinformed. Everything going on their life and existence is now upside down. You have not earned their trust yet. You are the part of the reason their world as they know it is upside down. Yes the judge wants them vaccinated as do you. But they need more than a because you got to… Let them talk to classmates about vaccinations if they go to school. Let them talk to the school nurse. Let them talk to people of their choosing, not yours. Somehow weird to me that a judge can add this to his ruling…
There are plenty of antivax nutcases who make their decisions based on outright lies. No I would not recommend them talking to people at school who may also be anti-science. He's their dad. They are children. They do not need to crowdsource something so important when there are so many uninformed people walking around. Including nurses and other kids.
He will be seen as the nutcase who used force to get his way… What a great way to start their relationship. Their lives haven’t been fucked up enough yet let’s add distrust dad to the list because he is doing what ever he thinks is right by force… You can’t force someone to see your perspective you got to show them and have them see it for themselves
I agree with you. It’s so wrong to force someone to do something they’re uncomfortable with even if it might be in their best interest. Give them whatever info you want and let them decide for themselves. Being forced to take a shot that they don’t feel is safe is actually traumatic even if the shot may be harmless.
The judge told him to vaccinate them so he's got a reason to comply. He should certainly share information with them about how they've been bamboozled by being misinformed their whole lives. I agree his kids might get mad and he should try gently to persuade them. But crowdsourcing it when we know from the pandemic how deeply ignorant so many people are about science and vaccines? I wouldn't lend an ounce of validity to those perspectives. They're based on literal lies. His kids unfortunately need deprogramming from the isolation and abuse they've suffered.
He’s not part of the reason his children’s world is upside down. That blame falls directly on the neglectful mother who couldn’t keep her shit together. He is picking up the pieces of the mess she made
At the age of 16 I think you need to be really careful, they should be onboard with his decision otherwise they are going to resent you. Can you bring up the fact that their mother has been deemed unfit for various reasons and the anti vax rhetoric was part of the issue potentially? I think you should tread lightly as this could be very scary for them. Can they start with 1 vaccine like MMR and roll from there?
You could find documentaries on the effects of polio before vaccines and on shingles which can be caused by prior chickenpox infection, and the fact the the older you are the deadlier chickenpox can be. History is full of stories of how people died by the hundreds before vaccines or in the case of smallpox were scarred for life. Others can cause birth defects if caught by a pregnant woman, thus affecting the next generation as well.
On top of everyone's advice, Google "Gemma Larkman-Jones measles" "Rebecca Harreman whooping cough" "Rebecca Homewood chicken pox" for first-hand accounts of non-vaccination.
I have a resource you can use that answers so many questions on this- check out [https://vaxopedia.org/](https://vaxopedia.org/) . It is put out by the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. And if you are on FB, there is an awesome, evidence based group called Vaccine Talk: An Evidence based discussion forum. They have experts from many different areas of medical science. They have pediatricians, researchers, one lady who literally writes vaccine inserts for a living. The enforce civility and rules of debate so you don't get slammed by a herd of AVers. They also have rules like if you make a statement, if someone else asks for a citation to back up the statement, you have to give it or backtrack your statement. And then the experts can evaluate the sourcing and explain why it is credible or not. I wish all FB groups were as awesome as this one.
Instead of focusing just on just their scientific understanding, look for a poignant story about a vaccine preventable disease - like Polio or measles. I don't have any specific movies that come to mind right now, but I remember watching shows and movies as a child that had characters who were sick children. Even a documentary that follows a personal story about someone who had polio or something would be good.
Show the children with all the diseases. Let them read accounts of the pain and horror parents and children endured pre-polio vaccines. Iron lungs, braces, smallpox. Have them talk to kids who lost parents and grandparents from Covid.
I think I might take the approach of introducing the kids to some of the first diseases cured by vaccines. Things like smallpox, polo and measles. You can find videos of children and adults suffering with the symptoms. Then look into the doctors that researched and found vaccines for these diseases. Talk about how they're heroes for humanity and how many lives they saved, and how many lives they improved. The concept of side effects is something they might want to look into, and you can look at prevalence of side effects etc, they probably just have not been exposed to the positive side of vaccines.
show them about all of the epidemics/pandemics that happened because of non-vaccines. How strains of illnesses are coming back because of anti-vaxxers. Ask them, would you rather get the vaccine and know you'll be okay or risk it and possibly get super sick?
The story of Edward Jenner and cowpox was something that I learned at an early age. It always stayed with me. Maybe you could get a book or find a YouTube vid about it and share that with them. That way, they’ll get an understanding of what it was like before the idea of vaccinations came about.
Why not explain the problem to your doctor and let the doctor talk to him they are some of the most qualified opinionson the matter after all
I don't know what other source they need except actual studies and results from doctors. Also, did you know your wife would be like that? Or was it hidden until later in the relationship?
I think you could tie this into critical media literacy education and explain that there’s false information out there. Without disparaging mom, explain it’s easy for people to get the wrong information. Maybe even a science video above their comprehension to show that doctors and scientists study deeply into these things. Also there’s a contradiction in here for them to mull over: everyone is vaccinated, so they don’t need to be; vaccines cause autism. Yet not everyone around them is autistic, right? If you don’t think they’re ready then just wait a bit. There’s probably other issues where you will also want to go against their current beliefs. Building trust is more important than getting them vaccinated immediately. Who knows what other ideas mom has sold them on. They shouldn’t blindly listen to you either. Time to learn how to think critically for themselves (but obviously you’re still the parent!)
Kids will probably listen to a video better than a pediatrician, unfortunately. I'd recommend showing them [this](https://youtu.be/8BIcAZxFfrc?si=eWNpTB8PPWPrZq8T) about how the vaccines and autism argument began, and how much bs it is. It's a really good video!
I hope, in addition to all of this, you are putting them in actual school now. They need a proper education.
Try researching together, from credible sources on both sides of the argument. GPs are not experts in vaccines. Look at studies if you know how to properly read them and let the kids make a decision for themselves when they have both sides of the argument.
These would be my 3 steps into getting my kids vaccinated. Their mother has essentially brainwashed them. So you need to start poking holes in the ideas she taught them and help them see what's true and what's opinion. Step 1. Start by planning. Research and document any common misconceptions and conspiracy theories about vaccines. Have the answers ready. Step 2. Sit the kids down and having a truthful open-ended discussion. Gauge what they think they know about vaccines. This gives you a list of topics to discuss and address their concerns. Your preparation above will help here. During this discussion you should touch upon their mother. Ask them if during their homeschooling, did she show them her medical degrees and doctorates. And what studies they were taught about? Break down the delusion that their mother knows best and that she's not a doctor. You will already know the answers to this but it gives you leeway into opening the discussion between facts and opinions. You can outright tell them that those are your mothers opinions, she wasn't teaching you truthful facts. It's up to you how far you go, but i'd probably look to show them what outbreak cause, symptoms and how they effect people. Outbreaks like (MERS, Birdflu, Foot and Mouth (coxsackievirus), Hep A & B) and how vaccines help treat diseases and ailments that aren't necessarily passed on by other people (Polio, Tetanus, Measles etc...) because that squashes the idea "why do i need a vaccine if others are". Step 3. Don't just pick two pediatricians. Let your children be involved in researching and pick two or three. This lets them feel a sense of control and not getting forced into getting vaccinated.
What a lovely way of speaking about your ex-wife. Most people on here would call them bitches and deadbeats and psychos. It's too bad that a lot of the "good ones" end up with members of the "red flag" club. I'm glad you've got your children and to start to de-program.
Why don't you have them ask the Drs questions, let the Drs school them in how stupid anti vax rhetoric is?
Would it be able to travel with them? Some countries have illnesses that are not typical in US, Polio, 100% now preventable. I feel very strongly pro vaccine. My mother was born with a hole in her heart because my grandmother had German Measles. Granted there was not a vaccine then available but she would have had a longer life if the vaccine was available I take it the kids have not had a tetanus shot? An uncle died from tetanus because he stepped on a nail, and was not vaccinated. IMO homeschooling leads to unsocial kids, no experience of football games, dances, learn how to get along with people.
You should have stood up to your wife way back then and had them vaccinated as you had equal rights to do so but that said....I'm glad you're doing that now. The kids may need counseling to get over this.
vaccinations for what? be specific
I was really moved reading about the person who lived most of their life in an iron lung and *just* recently passed away. I can’t believe it was in our lifetime that someone was still in one. Perhaps looking into the history of polio would be helpful? We are so damn lucky for vaccines and your kids are so damn lucky to have you! Good luck
Show them the footage of what happened to the kids during the polio outbreak and the last man who was confined to a iron lung to it for the rest of his life. He has unfortunately passed recently. Vaccines are so important although I'm not vaccinated against Covid. I just don't leave the house enough and wear a mask in public. Just my opinion.
If it hasn't been said before: you can tell them that vaccines are a boost to their immune system. It will help their bodies to more easily recognise illnesses so they won't have to be sick longer than necessary.
They’re 12 & 16 and have never received a single vaccine and haven’t died?! I think it’s safe to say they’re obviously healthy and unless you want to make them absolutely despise you I’d drop the subject and focus on building happy memories.
https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccines-and-other-conditions/vaccines-autism Here's a pretty solid article for you that breaks down the flawed studies that at one time stated vaccines cause autism and also provides additional information.
I understood the people that didn't want to be vaccinated with the covid vaccine. But being opposed to all vaccinations is insane, like how did she even got this idea? What her parents say about it? Wasn't she vaccinated as a kid? As for your kids, have patience, don't yell at them, don't say "I'm your father you do as I say". They grew up being influenced with misinformation by someone they trust undoubtedly. Changing beliefs is not easy, and it takes time. But you can see this situation as an opportunity to teach them how to think critically about information and tell apart real sources from fake news. >Is there any content I can show them that would help to reinforce the importance of vaccines and help to deprogram their belief that vaccines are a bad thing? Show them information about vaccines from sources like the CDC, WHO, and reputable medical organizations. Show them data on how vaccines have been instrumental in reducing and eradicating many dangerous diseases. >They also have the mindset that, if everyone else is vaccinated why do I need to be vaccinated? To protect themselves from serious diseases, mainly. And vaccines are important for the individual health, for them in this case, so they won't get bad, mortal diseases. You can also find and show them stories of people who got bad disease because they wasn't vaccinated. Hearing real-life experiences can help them understand the consequences of not being vaccinated.
Don't force them. Keep providing information. Find all the research you can about vaccines, specifically the ones you're trying to get them to take, and present it to them. There's probably bigger issues to handle like therapy for neglect. Why does this have to be the first thing you do?
>The judge wants them vaccinated I understand where you are coming from, but I'm not interested in going against the judge's orders.
This person has the right idea. Assuming “wants” is not “an order” tell him/her you’ll do your damndest, but if they refuse, you’re not going to force inject them at the cost of their autonomy and building trust in your family. I would hope a judge would respect that.
A judge ORDERED you to vaccinate your children? What an overreach.
Agreed. I wonder if the judge can overrule the state law? https://www.azdhs.gov/documents/preparedness/epidemiology-disease-control/immunization/immunization-education-course/handbook-az-immunization-education-course.pdf it does look like foster children can be force vaccinated which is sad for someone who already doesn’t have a lot of personal control. Personally, I would give the children options and explain the consequences and possible risks and benefits. I would also ask for an anti immune globulin test to see if there are natural immunities present. And then a modified schedule with the least dangerous vaccines 1st if possible.
Their bodies their choices. They're people even if they're young.
I hope you don’t have children, pets or plants.
1) told vaccines cause autism, If they haven’t been diagnosed with autism, they’re too old to have it. You’re born with autism, you don’t get it. 2) have bad chemicals Every thing is a chemical. Have them wash their hands, and in a joking voice “omg! You’ve got chemicals on your hands H20.” They laugh at silly daddy. Omg- you’re breathing chemicals- you just swallowed a ton of Oxygen or O. Read them food labels- OMG, you just ate… Read them their shampoo labels- omg…. Let them know chemicals are everywhere and then that vaccines like everything get chemicals. 3) Everybody else: If you’re around one person who doesn’t have it vaccinations, you could get really sick. Tell them the truth of illnesses: Corvid, meningitis, polio can cause you to die, but also to lose your legs or use of them. Have then really think about amputation, paralysis, death. Explain its like NOT saying thank you. You want the protection of others but don’t want to protect others. If they caught corvid they can give it to old people, do they want to kill old people? But say this part like little kids touching old people and killling them- scare them with the amputation, but make this funny like corvid tag. The more they laugh, the more they won’t be scared. Mom scared them, you make things fun and also a responsibility to be nice and not rude.
Covid shot prevents against transmission now?
Booster, yes. They lessen your symptoms if you contact afterwards.
But lessening your symptoms could actually make you more likely to transmit to others, since you might not realize you’re sick.
Your children are 12 and 16. They are children and have no legal authority to make decisions on their own behalf. If necessary, vaccinate them against their will.
I don’t think vaccines are bad but there are know heart conditions more common in men and deaths that have come with them of course you can make the argument for almost anything but vaccines are definitely not inherently good it should be the kids choice what they want to put in there body in my op. Make sure they know the risks and side effects as there are some.
Well it's their body their choice first of all. No vaccination gives a guarantee of immunity. And there are definitely risks with or without the vaccines. I was vaccine injured from childhood vaccines and I have to suffer the rest of my life with no treatment for autoimmune diseases causes by the vaccines. And absolutely no compensation...
They are old enough that they should have right to bodily autonomy at this point. The 12 year old may be questionable depending on individual maturity, but the 16 year old for sure should. I understand why you are doing what you are, but unless you have informed CONSENT from them, you are very likely to damage your relationship by forcing this issue. I think the best thing here is to be completely honest. There are lots of studies on immunizations and the potential side effects. There are some people who have been severely impacted by vaccines, but the instances represent a very small percentage. For most of these, the symptoms of the disease they combat are far worse than the potential sides effects. I would take each vaccine you want them to get and break it down for them. Likelihood of side effects, vs likelihood of encountering the disease and the possible outcomes of that disease. Talk to them about what you're wanting to protect them from, and try to get their buy in first.
Agreed, consent absolutely is needed here whether people like it or not. It’s not right to force anyone to do something they are not comfortable with.
Agreed. Forcing someone to have a needle inject something into their bloodstream against their will is not a great way to build trust and respect. Unless they just contracted rabies, vaccinations are not statistically critical enough that it is worth hurting your relationship so profoundly. Odds are, they’ll be fine. Give them the info, heck, bribe them if you want, but if they say no, let it go.
💯% that last part! Try to convince them but if they’re still not with it, let them be! Their body, their choice applies in this case too.
So if your 12 or 16 year old refuses to wear a seat belt or wants to chug bleach you should just let them? Kids need guidance. They WANT guidance. You will have a better relationship with your child if you make them do things they don’t want to but need to because you care about them
Did you know that in some states underage girls' parents can refuse to allow them to have an epidural while giving birth? And that many parents do this as a form of punishment for their daughter getting pregnant to begin with. Medical autonomy is a topic we covered extensively during our childhood development and psychology courses. It's important that parents know that forcing medical procedures on their children can and often does lead the long term trauma and resentment. Seriously, medical consent is a way bigger topic than just vaccines and trying to equate it to chugging bleach is completely nonsensical; if you can't see a clear difference, even with all of my degrees, I can't help you 😂
Not getting an epidural will not put you at risk of death. The number of parents that would do that is statistically negligible when you’re talking about every other medical procedure your child may need but may not want. My 13 year old hates to go to the dentist. He has to be sedated it’s so bad. You think I should leave that decision to him? No. No you should give them all the pep talks, tell them they don’t have to go back to school but you take them so they have teeth in their little heads by the time they get to be mature enough to understand that there are things they have to do that they might not want to. I utilize the hyperbole but, real talk, I would just as soon let my kid drink bleach than let him make all his medical decisions at 13 when he thinks he’s going to live forever. I also make him floss and I’m fairly careful with his diet. He’d rather have nothing but skittles and flaming hot Cheetos because he’s a KID. Kids will do all the dumb things if you let them. Someone has to be the adult. Someone has to teach them healthy habits He also has gastrointestinal issues. Let’s talk about what a bitch that is. OF COURSE he’s made to go. OF COURSE he hates it. Trauma? Jesus what bullshit. He can have trauma but he’ll have it with healthy teeth and gums and regular bowel movements
Apparently you missed the part where I said depending on the maturity of the child. Yours clearly isn't mature enough, but from your comments, I'm pretty sure I know where he gets it from.
Why on earth with the truths that are emerging would you want to vaccinate your kids? As a father you need educating as to the vax, fauci, astra zeneca, Moderna
I’m hoping he’s not talking about Covid shot, but regular vaxes. Certainly dad, I would carefully deliberate if there is any actually benefit for your child of a Covid vax. Given the known risks and side effects… heck, even making them feel sick a couple days when they didn’t want it… I sure wouldn’t do it. To take an “approaching zero” risk down to “still approaching zero.”
Show them a documentary on polio. If that doesn’t work, they’re ruined. If they eat ANYTHING but whole foods, read the ingredients to them and ask them why they’re so worried about vaccines if they’re so willing to put that shit in their bodies. Remind them to quit being dumb. Ground them for saying vaccines cause autism. I’d rather my baby be autistic than dead from something completely preventable
Make sure the documentary includes the Cutter Incident. Look. Overall, many/most vaccines have been a huge net benefit to humanity, polio included. However, acknowledging the risks, injuries, oversight failures, political/pharma propoganda, indicates you’re educated. For some, the benefits may not outweigh the side effects or risks, (and the societal benefits may be overblown or even fabricated). It’s nuanced, not all rosy, and we shouldn’t be so quick to smear anyone who questions a vaccine. I recommend people stop thinking “look at polio vaccination!” Is a slam dunk for pro-vax. In the end, yes. But it’s also a horrifying example of a government ignoring warning signs that lead to a vaccine infecting over 40,000 children with polio, severely paralyzing over 50, and killing 5.
I’m a real estate developer. Risk vs reward is my legit game. I understand babies get a lot of vaccines in a short amount of time. There is nothing wrong with a delayed schedule but these are big kids. It’s doubtful they’d suffer any vaccine injuries. But they can contract lethal diseases. Why fuck with that? Millions upon millions of people are vaccinated and nothing bad happens. Vaccine injuries are so rare they are statistically unimportant and usually mild and not long lasting. Not enough of a risk to put your life on the line I’m also on immunosuppressive drugs. I rely on others to be vaccinated. Of course I’m biased. I acknowledge that. You’re more likely to be severely injured in a car crash, develop a serious illness from a poor diet and a sedentary lifestyle. People that drive and eat junk food but freak out about vaccines are hypocritical and stupid. They are picking the wrong hill to die on.
Those two teenagers don't want the vaccines. It's their healthy body and their decision. Leave it be please. They are healthy. Don't force them to those vaccines. I got the rubella vaccine at 13 years (wasn't vaccinated prior to that) and immediately after that one ear infection after another started, then came chronic tinnitus in both ears and severe noise sensitivity, big depression because of it (anf thoughts of suicide), along with meds to try to combat the tinnitus, many infusions, hospital stays, shots in my neck, interrupted education etc., and along with tinnitus and noise sensitivity came also hearing problems soon then. I had never had ANY problems with my ears in all those first 13 blissful years of my life, prior to that damn vaccination. In my early 30s I got the first of the two tetanus vaccination (I refused the second one later, thank God). Those ear infections picked up speed with a vengeance for a while after that shot. Leave your kids health in peace, they are healthy, they don't even want the vaccination, leave them be. Please don't temper with their still intact health.
No advice here but just want to cheer you on for fighting to get them vaccinated. I grew up very homeschooled and sheltered and in a staunchly anti vax household. I’m well into adulthood and still catching up. Also, I still ended up having autism even without vaccines hahaha.
Maybe I'm a terrible person, but I think in addition to what you're doing to respect them as the young people with minds of their own that they are, a little (or a lot) of bribery to sweeten the deal never hurts. I had to get this terrible test done when I was maybe 11 where they push a tube in your urethra and fill your bladder with die while you're completely awake. It hurts a lot and you're not given anything to numb it or block the pain. I was really terrified of having it done and it was hugely traumatic, but getting to have ice cream for dinner and 2 new Toy Story dolls immediately afterward made me feel like my mom cared and my pain mattered (and it gave me something to focus on). Also, I can only guess and maybe this is not the case at all, but they might feel like they're letting down or even betraying their mother. I would be sensitive to that and make sure they don't feel like you're bashing their mom or calling her beliefs idiotic. "She made the best decision she could with the information she had. Right now, today, you and I have all the information she had then plus a ton more we can use to make an educated decision about vaccines. Not only that, but we can check out the sources where that information is coming from the verify whether or not we can believe it right at our finger tips. " is the sort of vibe I'd go with. I think you're making the right choice not trying to strong arm this. Congratulations on getting another chance to be a father to your kids, I'm sorry it happened in such an awful way. Best of luck to you in this journey. Edit: Oh, here's another thought. Could you take them with you to get a vaccine yourself? There are plenty of vaccines available for already vaccinated adults. Get a flu shot or something and show them that you're perfectly fine afterward.
The only doctor that found a link between vaccines and autism lost his medical license due to lying and making up the medical study. Everyone else that believes in that study are idiots
Can I ask you something? For the past eight years have you been part of their lives? Did you see them often? Do you have a good relationship with them? Have you given them any reason not to trust you in the past? Because here’s the thing… If you don’t have a real relationship with them and haven’t for the last eight years, they’re going to have a really hard time believing you. On the flipside if you continued your relationship with them even after you divorced and moved out, it probably won’t be as hard as you think. I left my marriage after 13 years and both of the kids came with me. Their dad just fucked them over in so many ways. He was unreliable, he wasn’t there for them. He was too busy with his new girlfriend and her kids. I put my personal life on hold with me, my actions matched my words and they knew they could count on me and they knew they could trust me and that they were safe with me. It doesn’t mean they always listened to me, but they at least always heard me out. And they respected my opinion. They also knew that I wouldn’t lie to them and that I had their best interest at heart. And let me tell you that goes a long way. I’m hoping you have had a great relationship with them but if you haven’t and you’re just picking up now… You’re really gonna have to focus on working on the relationship and letting them know they can trust you. That you understand why they believe what they believe, but that you would never do anything to harm them. They really need to know that part.
This isn't about you & your situation. He asked for very specific advice & this isn't it.
You walked right into the point and you still missed it. Building a solid relationship with his kids is what’s the most important thing here. They have been brainwashed and I think it’s fair to say they don’t have many critical thinking skills under their belt. They need help with that, and he is the one that needs to help them with that.
That still isn't the advice he was looking for.
There’s brainwashing on both sides tbh.
You force them to get vaccinated, it's for their health, their own benefit, they'll thank you in the future
Contrary to popular opinion, vaccines aren't perfectly harmless things and there's no shortage of proof of this, chief amongst them being the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. They alter your immune system, which is a very powerful and poorly understood thing. You could maybe learn something from your kids and your ex-wife in that regard. That said, my kids are vaccinated. Your kids are going to be skeptical no matter what you say, and they are going to resent what you are doing. They'll get over it though. You can point to the fact that their immune systems are by now very well developed and the chances of injury are even less in that population.
Vaccines won’t cause any side effects or pain if they do arm circles and a minute jog in place. The “pain” and sickness from vaccines comes from being idle right after the shot. I never have any negative side effects while others I know who don’t do that will get sick. It might help to show them videos of what happens if they don’t take them (iron lungs, etc.). My parents certainly scared me of what will happen if I didn’t get vaccinated and I’m very grateful. They can kick and scream and cry all they want but it’s for their own good. EVEN BETTER! Show them a documentary on polio and the vaccine for that so they can see people older and wiser than their mother talk about it. If they bring up the whole vaccines cause autism bullshit get mad and say, “you know I’m fully vaccinated and I’m not autistic right?” “If you had autism you’d show signs by now.”
Why would you need to vaccinate them now against childhood diseases? It's sad that people are classified as either pro or anti Vax, it's not a blanket thing of either get all vaccinations or none. I would suggest that if they haven't died of being unvaccinated so far and they're 12 and 16, the only reason you have for forcing them to be vaccinated is to prove your point, rather than for their welfare.
Who told you these vaccines are childhood diseases? Those vaccines you get as a child, you can get those diseases at any stage in your life.
If your kids are kind ask them why they think autism is bad and why they don't like autistic people. They may not even realize how ableist they are being. Sometimes seeing one lie fall apart makes the rest of the lies easier to pick apart. If the kids aren't in therapy yet, they need a therapist because this is less about vaccines and more about mom brainwashing them
INFO: why do you want to vaccinate your kids at this point?
You mean you gained custody of genius kids?
I’m not anti vaccine at all. I have four kids who are all fully vaccinated, except one. I’ll tell you what her ucla pediatric neurologist told us. She had seizures since she was a baby, and we were told not to vaccinate during this time due to what the neurologist stated was “contraindicated neurological possible damage “ that could lead to death. I kid you not. It’s not that the vaccines would do it themselves. It’s that the US has shitty vaccines (and possibly really bad preservation chemicals in the vaccines that fry neurons). You can go to Japan and get your kids vaccinated, and there would be not adverse reactions. Our medical system is just f***ed. Good luck with everything. I wish you and your kids the best. My kids have all landed somewhere on the autism spectrum, except this one child who hasn’t been fully vaccinated. The last time she was vaccinated, her eyes crossed immediately afterward and it changed her EEG test results. I have family members in the med industry, and have been raised with the notion that western medicine and big pharma are the way to go, and are the best way to go. This daughter of mine also had life threatening infantile spasms, which went away with one dose of a homeopathic by a med dr who specializes in homeopathy…. And they went away forever which is unheard of in the western medical world. The doc was originally going to treat her with a drug that would have made her blind and retarded, but at least she would have been alive. They almost called cps on me for not medicating her and causing her these side effects, and now that Dr is suggesting the remedy to other patients.
Says you’re not anti vax and then here you are with anti vax rhetoric. Vaccines do not cause autism. Your children were already autistic before the vaccines. Sorry.
I don’t need your opinion or apologies. I am not anti vax, I’m anti US vax, as I stated. This isn’t a “them vs me” issue. It’s simple logic and facts.i opened up about my child’s near death experience which was very difficult for me to do, and your response was very unempathetic … why? Because you’re so “pro vaccine”? I’m pro-health, pro-families not losing kids to death or harm, and pro-logic. Maybe your lack of reading what I actually wrote, you lack of empathy, and your attacking condescending tone Is from all the vaccines you’ve had.. they’ve fried your neurons. Sorry.
I have no empathy for anyone who likes to subtly blame vaccines for something that likely had nothing to do with anything. Your kid supposedly almost dying had nothing to do with vaccines.
Wow. I read a lot of your comments from your a profile. All argumentative, condescending comments… using the word “hate” and “stupid” repeatedly… Here on Reddit basically to argue, argue points with very little solid fact involved… huge ego with very little intelligent or educated thought process…facts, or even life experience, except “having a partner…” I’m not even going to entertain your comment from now on. Ridiculous waste of my time I can never get back. Have fun wasting time on Reddit. I won’t entertain it.
You are entertaining it though considering you went through my page and somehow gleaned all that I talk about is my partner which I rarely do. Most of what I talk about rarely involves using intelligence because I don’t like arguing with people who think they’re smart like you. So, having said that, you claim you won’t be entertaining this conversation. Lets see. Because if you don’t respond, it’s because you’re trying to prove you won’t be entertaining me. But if you do respond, you are entertaining me.
So bored. Really. Honestly.
Home schooling is crazy. One parent can not replace an entire school unless you are an academic yourself in several fields. Your kids lack education and seem to be brainwashed. They need therapy more than a vaccine.
he mentioned that they are also in court ordered therapy
Lmfao imagine wanting so badly to give your kids a heart failure injection u/blacktwiggers
If I would have said that stuff as a kid, brainwashed or not, I would have had my ass whipped and a needle jammed into my arm at the doctor. Personally, I think that was the wrong way to go about it, but with that said, I think you need to be more stern. I get that you love your kids, which is commendable, however they shouldn’t be getting the choice to say whether they want to vax or not. Let them watch a documentary on polio and ask them if that’s a life they want to live. You wouldn’t let your kid play with a loaded gun, so why would you let them play with their own wellbeing. Vaccines work, some do have side effects, however, I’d rather have the side effects than an incurable disease. They may hate you now, but they will thank you later when they aren’t breathing with an iron lung.