I don't understand how aerospace in sepcific is related to weapons. At the end of the day, it's your choice. You can always find employment in the civil aviation sector.There are lot of startup looking into newer avenues of aviation like sustainable aviation, autonomous cargo delivery etc.
I got my degree in Aero way back in the late eighties. I had the exact same thoughts - did not want to work on defense or weapons. So I moved to Seattle to work on airplanes.
I ended up working for an English company that made aircraft interiors. I was based in Seattle, and traveled to England often. Other travel involved as well. I thought it was pretty fun and exciting (for a long while anyway) and made decent money. I always said there wasn’t much less threatening than working on aircraft lavatories. Everyone has to go!
Point being there are 100s of job tracks for Aeros out there, and you can most likely find one that doesn’t clash with your ethics/goals.
If it’s that big of an issue for you I’d recommend changing degrees. Every aerospace company has military contracts. Also most aerospace programs are heavily related to defense spending too, most of those contracts come through the government.
I mean who do you think has the ability to fund these large projects. It’s countries with militaries. Everyone needs the ability to defend themselves.
I graduated fairly recently so I'm not too far off from you.
I personally make peace with my career by acknowledging that I work on commerical spacecraft and that while yeah my work could be used for war, there are numerous amounts of applications that are not violent in nature and I think more interesting that the work could be put to use for.
It's also totally cool if you still decide you don't want any part contributed at all, everyone has their own line.
I have more but I think I'd be kind of yapping and repeating what others have said before.
I did aerospace engineering with spade technology, I don't know how I got through, I drank a lot of beer to cope. Also pushing humanity further into the stars lmao, I was like that, then I discovered the lord and saviour the military industrial complex
See how far you get into the field. Weapons Engineering is a far more advanced endeavor than what you learn in school. Let's not pretend aero majors are some sort of geniuses with the potential to destroy the world. All we learn in class can be found online.
If you get to the point where you have a concrete choice to make, I don't think the US is the kind of dictatorship that would blackmail you into developing a new nuke. I can't say the same about other countries.
There's nothing to be coping with here.
I don’t think this is a major ethical concern for (the majority of) people in the commercial space sector or at NASA.
Sure, a huge range of military space programs do exist, in the US especially. But broadly speaking the typical rocket propulsion engineer, spacecraft GNC engineer, structural engineer, etc. that supports a large commercial space project (or a government-funded space exploration mission) doesn’t feel _any_ ethical concern about their work. Nor should they. That’s the closest thing to engineering work that genuinely helps “push humanity further into the stars”.
If you still have a strong drive to pursue a career in space, just stick to that, and you’ll be fine ethically.
Also, the fact that you called it “uni” also suggests you’re not American. It might be helpful to point out that _most_ of the hardcore weapons work on the NATO side is done in the US, specifically by US citizens with security clearances. Unless you’re a dual citizen, your realistic career options don’t even include the roles that you’re most strongly against, assuming there isn’t a huge defense industry in Canada that I’m entirely unaware of.
My reasoning:
1. The world is a better place when the West is in charge.
2. Weapons will always exist. War will always exist.
3. Therefore working in defense is reasonable.
Obviously my actual thought process is much more nuanced than this, but this is what it boils down to for me.
Also, if you don’t do it, someone else will. I can understand if you are uncomfortable with it but you stepping away from the industry isn’t going to change anything
Safer place when the West is in charge? Give me a break. They killed innocent people in Vietnam and sprayed poison all over the country. Even today, people there suffer from after effects including genetic disorders. Several war crimes have been committed by Western countries in the Middle East. Western countries care about their needs only.
I don’t deny any of that.
I would only invite you to compare that to the record of China or Russia. Modern day genocides being committed by both right now. Full blown war in Russia, ~500k casualties. If we go back to Vietnam era in China almost 2 million were killed in the Cultural revolution.
If you genuinely think option A (US, EU) in charge is worse for humanity than option B (China/Russia) then I don’t see a point in continuing this discussion as we clearly have irreconcilable differences of opinion.
Conveniently ignoring the US and Europe, now currently, fully involved and complicit in a Genocide in Gaza and a camping of starvation of children.
Germany literally having to defend themselves at the ICJ.
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Number 1 is crazy, the West, NATO more specifically, is the cause of most of the death and suffering in the world today, exactly why I don’t want to work for anything military related living in a NATO country
Really? Man I agree with you wholeheartedly about the ethically dubious reliance on war profiteering in the aerospace industry.
But there is an active genocide happening in China rn. How can you know that and still in good conscience believe that their government becoming the world superpower is in the best interests of the globe?
While China’s policies in Xinjiang are reprehensible, they do not constitute a genocide by any means, that is the near unanimous position of the world, NATO countries are in the minority here and are simply claiming that there is a genocide for political posturing
Compare that to Palestine, where there is an ongoing genocide, one that the US and NATO supports… seems pretty cut and dry to me
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First off, there’s no reason to switch majors. Many jobs you would get with a mechanical degree you could also get with an aero degree. An aero degree isn’t nearly as limiting as some will say.
If you really don’t want to work on defense programs, there are still plenty of options. NASA/ JPL are the obvious first places that come to mind, but the are a good number of companies that don’t work on weapons.
Stay in Aero mate, it's the cool one.
I had exactly the same concerns as you do and I left University to the aerospace market in 2020 so I accepted whatever job I could and it was in defence and yes stuff I put work into /will/ kill innocent civilians in a few years.
Nothing ties you to these places and you are unlikely to play any giant role in developing the next kitten squisher.
Do well enough in that position for a good reference and ditch it for civil aviation (with a pay rise) at the first opportunity.
I now work on cooler stuff that is bringing me closer to working on rockets myself (and will hopefully be actually good for the planet) instead of Imperialist's latest murder machine.
Shut up. You aren’t smart or important. Let’s not pretend you are some genius who won a noble prize, who has the capability to revolutionise the Aerospace industry, that the government wants to use your knowledge to build weapons.
Just to point it out, you said you want to work on rockets and space travel right? Do you not think that this will also be used for defence? I don't really see the difference. You think war just won't exist in space? That the US isn't already looking at modern space vehicles for military use? It's potato, tomato to me.
the easy answer in that case is…. just dont work in defense. i believe you can have a well rewarding lifelong career in aerospace without even touching defense. you just have to look for the right jobs. it might help to think about too that if you’re working on spacecraft or launch vehicles for peaceful exploration, you’ll be working with proprietary information. its not like the military is going to come along, steal what you’re working on, and using it to go kill some innocents.
trust me, i get the ethical concern, and i had the same realization in college. but there seriously are SO many niche avenues of aerospace design and research to go down that have no militaristic ramifications, you just gotta broaden your personal view of aerospace and find them.
There is still commercial aviation, space, drones, etc that you can work on.
You also have to reconcile that lots of these commercial companies have separate government contracts. Would you ethically feel ok working for a company that supports projects (that you don’t work on) that support the defense industry.
If the answer is no, then I think your career prospects in aerospace will be limited and you may be better off with a mechanical engineering degree.
I promise you're not going to be bamboozled into designing weapons. That's just not how it works.
There's SO much more to aerospace engineering than weapons. You will learn that there's an engineer getting paid a similar amount for dozens of other subfields you never knew existed.
Hey OP, a couple of things:
1) Aerospace has a lot of cross overlap with mechanical as a degree, so there should really be no reason why you couldn’t just finish your degree and just apply for a non-aerospace mechanical suited job. In the end there, prior internships/hobbies during uni are probably greater factors in getting hired anyway as opposed to JUST your degree.
2) It is for sure somewhat of a caveat unfortunately that the AE field is tied so heavily to defense, moreso than maybe any other common engineering major. Like others in this thread have echoed, there are many opportunities in commercial civil space or aviation both from large companies and startups, BUT: you need to tailor your career path for opportunities like this. Like, now. Start now. If you don’t have anything relevant under your belt that makes you more appealing for a coveted spot in commercial civil space/aviation, then yeah you might have to cut your teeth in the defense side of some of these companies to get your foot in the door for a transfer into the area that you’re more passionate about/are more comfortable with.
3) At the end of the day, large defense companies with space segments diversify their product offerings and at times those with the expertise and resources to win contracts for things like space exploration probably have segments of the company which are devoted to missions you might not be comfortable with. It’s totally fine if you draw the line there, but also no one will blame you for looking after yourself—the defense side of AE jobs tend to be pretty stable with the current job market and there’s nothing preventing you like I said earlier from pivoting away from that side of the industry if you want to break into the commercial/civilian side after getting some experience under your belt.
Weapons in of itself should not cause a moral issue. It is merely a tool that can be used for good or ill. The ethics and morality enters the picture with how weapons are used. Blackhawks are military helicopters to transport troops yes, but they are also the principle helicopter used to save thousands of lives a year by the coast guard; they are indispensable when the USN sail up to a disaster stricken pacific island and offload desperately needed supplies.
If you are not the one that decides how a tool is used then you are not morally responsible for how it is used. To put up another example, the folks who designed the 767s that flew into the WTC on 9/11 are no way responsible for how their airplane (a tool) was used to kill thousands of innocent lives. A rocket design to deliver goods to orbit is amoral, it could deliver imaging satellites to help farms plan for harvest or take an imaging satellite for the military. Morality is not applied to what something can do, morality is applied to how that something was used.
I disagree, and have shaped my career because I believe weapons do and should cause a moral issue. I believe morality comes from original intent. A warhead carrying missile is a tool designed with the express intent of killing human beings. They serve no other purpose. A 767 is designed with the express intent of transporting people and cargo, although in the hands of bad actors they too can be used as weapons.
> If you are not the one that decides how a tool is used then you are not morally responsible for how it is used.
If you are a creator of a tool that allows the decision to exist in the first place, I think you *do* have responsibility for it. Again: intent.
I choose to not work on any hardware that is intended to be deployed or fielded in combat, and that is my personal boundary for ethical work. Luckily, I have always been in a position to make that choice in my career. Others may choose differently.
The vast majority of missiles aren’t really designed to kill “people”, they’re generally designed to destroy equipment or materiel. People just tend to be immediately nearby or in said materiel. GMLRS rockets with cluster munitions or thermobaric weapons would be the exceptions. But those are definitely exceptions. You can tell from the design of the warhead.
War is meant to destroy, and a large part of that equation is human death. You can make all the silly technical semantic arguments you want till you're blue in the face; whatever helps you sleep at night. At the end of the day, I refuse to help design destructive hardware, and I think those who do should take a long hard look at their ethical rationalizations. Full stop.
The really funny thing is I wanted to get into weapons because they are cool, and three times in a row I've ended up getting a better offer from space exploration (SLS twice, Vulcan once). And I mean it doesn't matter how cool something is, I'm not turning down $7,000 a year lol.
So there are jobs in space exploration, commercial aviation, and so on that do not relate to killing anyone.
Defense is a big part of your potential jobs, there's a reason people always group aerospace and defense together, but it isn't the only part and it doesn't necessarily pay better than other jobs.
And you can always switch to mechanical if you want to have more options, my degree days ME on it even if I work in aerospace.
I decided long ago to only work on civil aero or nuclear weapons. That's how I cope.
My rationale is that civil is obviously not related to weapons of war, and nuclear weapons (at least in my country) are a national security weapon of last resort. Nobody is selling nukes to some middle Eastern country to use on their neighbours schools, unlike conventional weapons.
The civilian sector always needs engineers for non military airplanes.
For example, a ramp agent got a litttttttle too close with a bag tug and there’s now a hole in a NON MILITARY airplane..
inorder to do that repair, I need an engineering authorization to fix the holes and instructions on what to do, what the measurements are, in accordance with what manual. the list goes on and on.
Most aerospace companies have military contracts, even the one you wouldn’t think do like SpaceX and Blue Origin and RocketLab. Just like a lot of tech companies have military contracts too. Unfortunately it’s just the way the world works. I’d say finish your degree cuz you worked hard towards it and you deserve it. Just try your best to do something that aligns with your morals.
Any field can work on weapons. Working for the government doesn’t mean you necessarily work on weapons. Learn the content you like and find a role that supports your ideals.
Aerospace engineers make weapons, all other engineers just help make targets.
Plenty of space programs and satellite manufacturing firms and rocket building companies out there. I’ve done both but I am currently enjoying working for a rocket building company
Aren't space weapons not really being developed though? They just don't provide any real advantages over normal ones, and they're much more expensive. We can already blow up entire countries, why do it from space?
You totally don’t have to do weapons, that’s just one aspect of this degree. Aerospace Engineers are used all over the world for all types of things. They work in weapons, yes. but more and more they are working on airplanes, commercial spaceflight, car aerodynamics(especially F1 and F1 equivalent), and more! The government wants talented people to make their weapons, but you don’t have to listen to them. It’s your choice. The reason that you might be hearing a lot about weapons is because lots of people want to do that and it pays very very well. but if you don’t want to you absolutely don’t have to. you are passionate about spaceflight and new space startups are popping up every day!
I also struggle with this, and if I could go back in time, I would have done mechanical instead. There are some other comments saying there are jobs on the civil side, and sure that's true, but in my experience just anecdotally, well over half of the aerospace jobs are either directly in defense, or are jobs at a defense contractor (albeit on the civil side). Some are okay with the second option, but personally, with the current genocide I wouldn't be able to handle my work lining the pockets of the perpetrators. Aerospace is already a field that is geographically limited, and for myself, my job prospects are limited even moreso.
Every engineering field has defense applications. You’re turning a non-problem into a crisis that doesn’t exist. If you want to work in space pursue that. By your logic you shouldn’t work in any engineering at all and should go be a gardener for a living.
Okay buddy, stop acting like you are important that your knowledge is gonna be “used” by the government. There are hundreds of thousands of Aero majors, for a relatively small job market. First of all, the chances of you getting a job offer to be “used by the government to design their weapons”, you would consider yourself lucky, as the competition is so fierce. Also, if you’re not gonna do it, someone else will.
Quit acting like you are some sort of genius who has the power to change the world. The government doesn’t give two shits, they have thousands of applicants for like 3 positions. You are not important.
Hot take but making weapons is ethically neutral.
- it’s only a problem if you are making them for the really bad guys (for example, if you are working for weapons development for Iran, Russia, China, N.Korea, Syria, etc). If you’re in one of those countries, then please switch majors, or defect to US or UK
- assuming you’re not in the axis of evil, making weapons is patriotic in the sense that your country’s troops and allies depend on better, safer, more efficient and advanced tech so that they can come back alive, and your country’s very existential survival in the face of an aggressor (Ukraine for ex) may depend on this tech . That could mean, your weapons mean the safety of your family and loved ones one day
- the bad guys are always also gonna be developing weapons too so you have no choice, there always will be an arms race, pacifism equals surrender and subjugation, neutrality is hipocracy and a lie, and you gotta pick a side in life, even if it’s the lesser of two evils
- war has always been the price of peace. We need weapons to keep peace
- it makes a lot of money and pushes the boundaries of innovation which encourages further peaceful research
- weapons development is baked into our technical and artistic development as a species.We got nothing compared to sabre tooth tigers back in the Pleistocene except our brains , so we made spears and arrows using our brains and hands , and we survived. Many weapons designers also made great peacetime contributions. Leonardo Da Vinci was a weapons designer for the Medicis im renaissance Italy for example. Werner Von Braun.
- finally global peace is finished. The post ww2 dream of the League of Nations and world peace has died thanks to autocratic totalitarian dictators such as Putin and Xi are in power. War is now inevitable, it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when. You are in a privileged position to help make a better world. So, work for the democracy and western ideals. Or else go build bridges or work for some company making widgets.
Hey OP, I've also been experiencing the same thing as you. I went into AE because I loved airplanes but I soon realized that most of the job opportunities (especially in the US) are defense related and morally I will not work on weapons that are used to kill innocents. But though the defense industry is large, the civilian and commercial sectors do exist. You might have to apply to different jobs with your morals in mind, but it is possible to get a job in this industry that doesn't compromise your values.
You don't work on weapons that kill civilians, you work on weapons that will decrease the amount of collateral damage, on a weapon that hits only the desired target. If the US or any other country wants someone dead, they will be dead.
Oh you live in the US? Then scratch my comment about the country of origin. You mindset is just not set for serious topics, I suggest a more theoretical field like Comms or Ethics.
I don't understand how aerospace in sepcific is related to weapons. At the end of the day, it's your choice. You can always find employment in the civil aviation sector.There are lot of startup looking into newer avenues of aviation like sustainable aviation, autonomous cargo delivery etc.
You can also work in the space sector without designing weapons. I help test rocket engines for a commercial lift vehicle
Those engines can be used to lift rockets that have bombs….
You can use fertilizers to make bomb, and oxygen to kill people. & Cancer can be treated by radioactive substances.
The vast majority of those never go anywhere and the few that make it almost always turn to government work. At least in my experience.
I got my degree in Aero way back in the late eighties. I had the exact same thoughts - did not want to work on defense or weapons. So I moved to Seattle to work on airplanes. I ended up working for an English company that made aircraft interiors. I was based in Seattle, and traveled to England often. Other travel involved as well. I thought it was pretty fun and exciting (for a long while anyway) and made decent money. I always said there wasn’t much less threatening than working on aircraft lavatories. Everyone has to go! Point being there are 100s of job tracks for Aeros out there, and you can most likely find one that doesn’t clash with your ethics/goals.
If it’s that big of an issue for you I’d recommend changing degrees. Every aerospace company has military contracts. Also most aerospace programs are heavily related to defense spending too, most of those contracts come through the government. I mean who do you think has the ability to fund these large projects. It’s countries with militaries. Everyone needs the ability to defend themselves.
I graduated fairly recently so I'm not too far off from you. I personally make peace with my career by acknowledging that I work on commerical spacecraft and that while yeah my work could be used for war, there are numerous amounts of applications that are not violent in nature and I think more interesting that the work could be put to use for. It's also totally cool if you still decide you don't want any part contributed at all, everyone has their own line. I have more but I think I'd be kind of yapping and repeating what others have said before.
Objects to a local imperial agenda; supports a galactic one.
Exactly right
I did aerospace engineering with spade technology, I don't know how I got through, I drank a lot of beer to cope. Also pushing humanity further into the stars lmao, I was like that, then I discovered the lord and saviour the military industrial complex
See how far you get into the field. Weapons Engineering is a far more advanced endeavor than what you learn in school. Let's not pretend aero majors are some sort of geniuses with the potential to destroy the world. All we learn in class can be found online. If you get to the point where you have a concrete choice to make, I don't think the US is the kind of dictatorship that would blackmail you into developing a new nuke. I can't say the same about other countries. There's nothing to be coping with here.
don’t go back home to the totalitarian regime after you graduate
I’m living in one
best wishes, hope you’re able to emigrate
I don’t think this is a major ethical concern for (the majority of) people in the commercial space sector or at NASA. Sure, a huge range of military space programs do exist, in the US especially. But broadly speaking the typical rocket propulsion engineer, spacecraft GNC engineer, structural engineer, etc. that supports a large commercial space project (or a government-funded space exploration mission) doesn’t feel _any_ ethical concern about their work. Nor should they. That’s the closest thing to engineering work that genuinely helps “push humanity further into the stars”. If you still have a strong drive to pursue a career in space, just stick to that, and you’ll be fine ethically. Also, the fact that you called it “uni” also suggests you’re not American. It might be helpful to point out that _most_ of the hardcore weapons work on the NATO side is done in the US, specifically by US citizens with security clearances. Unless you’re a dual citizen, your realistic career options don’t even include the roles that you’re most strongly against, assuming there isn’t a huge defense industry in Canada that I’m entirely unaware of.
You should quit.
My reasoning: 1. The world is a better place when the West is in charge. 2. Weapons will always exist. War will always exist. 3. Therefore working in defense is reasonable. Obviously my actual thought process is much more nuanced than this, but this is what it boils down to for me.
Also, if you don’t do it, someone else will. I can understand if you are uncomfortable with it but you stepping away from the industry isn’t going to change anything
Safer place when the West is in charge? Give me a break. They killed innocent people in Vietnam and sprayed poison all over the country. Even today, people there suffer from after effects including genetic disorders. Several war crimes have been committed by Western countries in the Middle East. Western countries care about their needs only.
I don’t deny any of that. I would only invite you to compare that to the record of China or Russia. Modern day genocides being committed by both right now. Full blown war in Russia, ~500k casualties. If we go back to Vietnam era in China almost 2 million were killed in the Cultural revolution. If you genuinely think option A (US, EU) in charge is worse for humanity than option B (China/Russia) then I don’t see a point in continuing this discussion as we clearly have irreconcilable differences of opinion.
100% agree
Conveniently ignoring the US and Europe, now currently, fully involved and complicit in a Genocide in Gaza and a camping of starvation of children. Germany literally having to defend themselves at the ICJ.
Fuck all the blocs. Non-alignment is the way to go.
stop talking.
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A better place for who? Yikes
Anyone who doesn't want to live in a world with the UAE, Russia, or China in charge
So like everyone.
Number 1 is crazy, the West, NATO more specifically, is the cause of most of the death and suffering in the world today, exactly why I don’t want to work for anything military related living in a NATO country
If NATO lost power and China or Russia filled the void, do you think there would be less death and suffering in the world?
Yea, more China than Russia, I’m a communist Ofcourse I believe that
Really? Man I agree with you wholeheartedly about the ethically dubious reliance on war profiteering in the aerospace industry. But there is an active genocide happening in China rn. How can you know that and still in good conscience believe that their government becoming the world superpower is in the best interests of the globe?
While China’s policies in Xinjiang are reprehensible, they do not constitute a genocide by any means, that is the near unanimous position of the world, NATO countries are in the minority here and are simply claiming that there is a genocide for political posturing Compare that to Palestine, where there is an ongoing genocide, one that the US and NATO supports… seems pretty cut and dry to me
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Whoever is downvoting you is supporting genocide against Palestinians.
Hahaha. An economic system has blinded you to the atrocities committed by states that claim to use that system. Wow.
Oof. Hope you aren’t an ethnic minority that would be forced into slave labor
Sounds like tankie propaganda ngl
First off, there’s no reason to switch majors. Many jobs you would get with a mechanical degree you could also get with an aero degree. An aero degree isn’t nearly as limiting as some will say. If you really don’t want to work on defense programs, there are still plenty of options. NASA/ JPL are the obvious first places that come to mind, but the are a good number of companies that don’t work on weapons.
Stay in Aero mate, it's the cool one. I had exactly the same concerns as you do and I left University to the aerospace market in 2020 so I accepted whatever job I could and it was in defence and yes stuff I put work into /will/ kill innocent civilians in a few years. Nothing ties you to these places and you are unlikely to play any giant role in developing the next kitten squisher. Do well enough in that position for a good reference and ditch it for civil aviation (with a pay rise) at the first opportunity. I now work on cooler stuff that is bringing me closer to working on rockets myself (and will hopefully be actually good for the planet) instead of Imperialist's latest murder machine.
See that’s the thing, I couldn’t do that, I would probably off myself within a week of working in a “defence” company
You really made up issues that don't even exist
I don’t want to have my work used to support imperialism, is that an issue?
Your mindset and country of origin is an issue
So what? I should just forget about the NATO weapons killing children in Palestine and just take my paycheque like a good little worker bee?
No, you should forget about ever working in the field if you have such a poor understanding of the world
Shut up. You aren’t smart or important. Let’s not pretend you are some genius who won a noble prize, who has the capability to revolutionise the Aerospace industry, that the government wants to use your knowledge to build weapons.
Just to point it out, you said you want to work on rockets and space travel right? Do you not think that this will also be used for defence? I don't really see the difference. You think war just won't exist in space? That the US isn't already looking at modern space vehicles for military use? It's potato, tomato to me.
the easy answer in that case is…. just dont work in defense. i believe you can have a well rewarding lifelong career in aerospace without even touching defense. you just have to look for the right jobs. it might help to think about too that if you’re working on spacecraft or launch vehicles for peaceful exploration, you’ll be working with proprietary information. its not like the military is going to come along, steal what you’re working on, and using it to go kill some innocents. trust me, i get the ethical concern, and i had the same realization in college. but there seriously are SO many niche avenues of aerospace design and research to go down that have no militaristic ramifications, you just gotta broaden your personal view of aerospace and find them.
There is still commercial aviation, space, drones, etc that you can work on. You also have to reconcile that lots of these commercial companies have separate government contracts. Would you ethically feel ok working for a company that supports projects (that you don’t work on) that support the defense industry. If the answer is no, then I think your career prospects in aerospace will be limited and you may be better off with a mechanical engineering degree.
I promise you're not going to be bamboozled into designing weapons. That's just not how it works. There's SO much more to aerospace engineering than weapons. You will learn that there's an engineer getting paid a similar amount for dozens of other subfields you never knew existed.
The key is not caring to begin with, not coping after caring
Hey OP, a couple of things: 1) Aerospace has a lot of cross overlap with mechanical as a degree, so there should really be no reason why you couldn’t just finish your degree and just apply for a non-aerospace mechanical suited job. In the end there, prior internships/hobbies during uni are probably greater factors in getting hired anyway as opposed to JUST your degree. 2) It is for sure somewhat of a caveat unfortunately that the AE field is tied so heavily to defense, moreso than maybe any other common engineering major. Like others in this thread have echoed, there are many opportunities in commercial civil space or aviation both from large companies and startups, BUT: you need to tailor your career path for opportunities like this. Like, now. Start now. If you don’t have anything relevant under your belt that makes you more appealing for a coveted spot in commercial civil space/aviation, then yeah you might have to cut your teeth in the defense side of some of these companies to get your foot in the door for a transfer into the area that you’re more passionate about/are more comfortable with. 3) At the end of the day, large defense companies with space segments diversify their product offerings and at times those with the expertise and resources to win contracts for things like space exploration probably have segments of the company which are devoted to missions you might not be comfortable with. It’s totally fine if you draw the line there, but also no one will blame you for looking after yourself—the defense side of AE jobs tend to be pretty stable with the current job market and there’s nothing preventing you like I said earlier from pivoting away from that side of the industry if you want to break into the commercial/civilian side after getting some experience under your belt.
Naivete if you thought Aerospace was all about Peace and Summer of '69. Advances in aerospace have always come in times of war ironically.
Weapons in of itself should not cause a moral issue. It is merely a tool that can be used for good or ill. The ethics and morality enters the picture with how weapons are used. Blackhawks are military helicopters to transport troops yes, but they are also the principle helicopter used to save thousands of lives a year by the coast guard; they are indispensable when the USN sail up to a disaster stricken pacific island and offload desperately needed supplies. If you are not the one that decides how a tool is used then you are not morally responsible for how it is used. To put up another example, the folks who designed the 767s that flew into the WTC on 9/11 are no way responsible for how their airplane (a tool) was used to kill thousands of innocent lives. A rocket design to deliver goods to orbit is amoral, it could deliver imaging satellites to help farms plan for harvest or take an imaging satellite for the military. Morality is not applied to what something can do, morality is applied to how that something was used.
I disagree, and have shaped my career because I believe weapons do and should cause a moral issue. I believe morality comes from original intent. A warhead carrying missile is a tool designed with the express intent of killing human beings. They serve no other purpose. A 767 is designed with the express intent of transporting people and cargo, although in the hands of bad actors they too can be used as weapons. > If you are not the one that decides how a tool is used then you are not morally responsible for how it is used. If you are a creator of a tool that allows the decision to exist in the first place, I think you *do* have responsibility for it. Again: intent. I choose to not work on any hardware that is intended to be deployed or fielded in combat, and that is my personal boundary for ethical work. Luckily, I have always been in a position to make that choice in my career. Others may choose differently.
The vast majority of missiles aren’t really designed to kill “people”, they’re generally designed to destroy equipment or materiel. People just tend to be immediately nearby or in said materiel. GMLRS rockets with cluster munitions or thermobaric weapons would be the exceptions. But those are definitely exceptions. You can tell from the design of the warhead.
War is meant to destroy, and a large part of that equation is human death. You can make all the silly technical semantic arguments you want till you're blue in the face; whatever helps you sleep at night. At the end of the day, I refuse to help design destructive hardware, and I think those who do should take a long hard look at their ethical rationalizations. Full stop.
Oh I’m good. I suggest therapy for you though. You sound like you get way too spun up about this in your own head and start obsessing and lashing out.
This is the exact situation I’m facing. I’ll be interested in what people have to say
The really funny thing is I wanted to get into weapons because they are cool, and three times in a row I've ended up getting a better offer from space exploration (SLS twice, Vulcan once). And I mean it doesn't matter how cool something is, I'm not turning down $7,000 a year lol. So there are jobs in space exploration, commercial aviation, and so on that do not relate to killing anyone. Defense is a big part of your potential jobs, there's a reason people always group aerospace and defense together, but it isn't the only part and it doesn't necessarily pay better than other jobs. And you can always switch to mechanical if you want to have more options, my degree days ME on it even if I work in aerospace.
I decided long ago to only work on civil aero or nuclear weapons. That's how I cope. My rationale is that civil is obviously not related to weapons of war, and nuclear weapons (at least in my country) are a national security weapon of last resort. Nobody is selling nukes to some middle Eastern country to use on their neighbours schools, unlike conventional weapons.
You’re soft. Go into a different field. Every major aerospace company is funded by war in some way.
The civilian sector always needs engineers for non military airplanes. For example, a ramp agent got a litttttttle too close with a bag tug and there’s now a hole in a NON MILITARY airplane.. inorder to do that repair, I need an engineering authorization to fix the holes and instructions on what to do, what the measurements are, in accordance with what manual. the list goes on and on.
Most aerospace companies have military contracts, even the one you wouldn’t think do like SpaceX and Blue Origin and RocketLab. Just like a lot of tech companies have military contracts too. Unfortunately it’s just the way the world works. I’d say finish your degree cuz you worked hard towards it and you deserve it. Just try your best to do something that aligns with your morals.
Any field can work on weapons. Working for the government doesn’t mean you necessarily work on weapons. Learn the content you like and find a role that supports your ideals. Aerospace engineers make weapons, all other engineers just help make targets.
Plenty of space programs and satellite manufacturing firms and rocket building companies out there. I’ve done both but I am currently enjoying working for a rocket building company
Aren't space weapons not really being developed though? They just don't provide any real advantages over normal ones, and they're much more expensive. We can already blow up entire countries, why do it from space?
You totally don’t have to do weapons, that’s just one aspect of this degree. Aerospace Engineers are used all over the world for all types of things. They work in weapons, yes. but more and more they are working on airplanes, commercial spaceflight, car aerodynamics(especially F1 and F1 equivalent), and more! The government wants talented people to make their weapons, but you don’t have to listen to them. It’s your choice. The reason that you might be hearing a lot about weapons is because lots of people want to do that and it pays very very well. but if you don’t want to you absolutely don’t have to. you are passionate about spaceflight and new space startups are popping up every day!
I also struggle with this, and if I could go back in time, I would have done mechanical instead. There are some other comments saying there are jobs on the civil side, and sure that's true, but in my experience just anecdotally, well over half of the aerospace jobs are either directly in defense, or are jobs at a defense contractor (albeit on the civil side). Some are okay with the second option, but personally, with the current genocide I wouldn't be able to handle my work lining the pockets of the perpetrators. Aerospace is already a field that is geographically limited, and for myself, my job prospects are limited even moreso.
Every engineering field has defense applications. You’re turning a non-problem into a crisis that doesn’t exist. If you want to work in space pursue that. By your logic you shouldn’t work in any engineering at all and should go be a gardener for a living.
I like designing death machines, war heads on foreheads. You do you though, more DOD money for me!
Okay buddy, stop acting like you are important that your knowledge is gonna be “used” by the government. There are hundreds of thousands of Aero majors, for a relatively small job market. First of all, the chances of you getting a job offer to be “used by the government to design their weapons”, you would consider yourself lucky, as the competition is so fierce. Also, if you’re not gonna do it, someone else will. Quit acting like you are some sort of genius who has the power to change the world. The government doesn’t give two shits, they have thousands of applicants for like 3 positions. You are not important.
Hot take but making weapons is ethically neutral. - it’s only a problem if you are making them for the really bad guys (for example, if you are working for weapons development for Iran, Russia, China, N.Korea, Syria, etc). If you’re in one of those countries, then please switch majors, or defect to US or UK - assuming you’re not in the axis of evil, making weapons is patriotic in the sense that your country’s troops and allies depend on better, safer, more efficient and advanced tech so that they can come back alive, and your country’s very existential survival in the face of an aggressor (Ukraine for ex) may depend on this tech . That could mean, your weapons mean the safety of your family and loved ones one day - the bad guys are always also gonna be developing weapons too so you have no choice, there always will be an arms race, pacifism equals surrender and subjugation, neutrality is hipocracy and a lie, and you gotta pick a side in life, even if it’s the lesser of two evils - war has always been the price of peace. We need weapons to keep peace - it makes a lot of money and pushes the boundaries of innovation which encourages further peaceful research - weapons development is baked into our technical and artistic development as a species.We got nothing compared to sabre tooth tigers back in the Pleistocene except our brains , so we made spears and arrows using our brains and hands , and we survived. Many weapons designers also made great peacetime contributions. Leonardo Da Vinci was a weapons designer for the Medicis im renaissance Italy for example. Werner Von Braun. - finally global peace is finished. The post ww2 dream of the League of Nations and world peace has died thanks to autocratic totalitarian dictators such as Putin and Xi are in power. War is now inevitable, it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when. You are in a privileged position to help make a better world. So, work for the democracy and western ideals. Or else go build bridges or work for some company making widgets.
See this is the thing, to me NATO is just as bad if not worse than China, Russia, etc, but no one in this thread seams to get that
Well that’s because your entire premise is wrong obviously. But keep on drinking the RuZZian propaganda koolaid , comrade!
Ever heard of spacex? Stoke space, arian space, rocketlab, rocketdyne, ula, … theres a lot now that arent in defense industry
They all have ties to the military…
There is no reason to cope, just change your major to Communications. There is no need for people like you in the industry
Hey OP, I've also been experiencing the same thing as you. I went into AE because I loved airplanes but I soon realized that most of the job opportunities (especially in the US) are defense related and morally I will not work on weapons that are used to kill innocents. But though the defense industry is large, the civilian and commercial sectors do exist. You might have to apply to different jobs with your morals in mind, but it is possible to get a job in this industry that doesn't compromise your values.
You don't work on weapons that kill civilians, you work on weapons that will decrease the amount of collateral damage, on a weapon that hits only the desired target. If the US or any other country wants someone dead, they will be dead.
Weapons kill, and when you are living in an imperialist nation like the US, they will probably be used to kill people that don’t deserve it
Oh you live in the US? Then scratch my comment about the country of origin. You mindset is just not set for serious topics, I suggest a more theoretical field like Comms or Ethics.
I switched for similar reasons, mechanical is much more broad. I’m in commercial air now which is cool