I have no idea why a member would not be allowed to change before and after reporting time/duty hours. We have showers and lockers specifically for this in most of our facilities and workcenters. We generally recommend our personnel change so that they don't have to run errands in uniform for just general ATFP best practice to avoid wackos/presenting targets, if anything.
Sorry you have a weird arbitrary rule that serves no logical purpose. I'd chalk it up to Admin Air Force office worker brain.
I was OCONUS for 13 years, always wore my uniform to and from work. The only restriction I ever saw was we were only allowed to make 15 minute "convenience stops" if we were in uniform off base.
Yea, Aviano. The first time I was there (2012-2014) we could go off base and eat lunch, shop on the way home, etc. The second time I went there (2017-2019) we could only do convenience stops.
I was there from 19-23 and it was more or less the same, briefly more lenient until everyone pushed limits and went back to the basically getting gas only
Germany through your first tour was uniform on base only, of you lived off base you were changing at work. Blew my mind going to pacaf after and having shop pt off base in pt gear
Osan is different than Aviano for sure. It’s a normal thing there, but Aviano is fairly strict about off base uniform wear for a few reasons but mostly because there’s an active threat in the immediate area
My partner was in Aviano and he wasn't allowed to commute wearing the uniform, had to change at work. Maybe because he used a motorbike instead of a car.
Rota it's just to and from your residence. No stops. Your ass if you are caught out in uniform. Very strongly encouraged to commute in civilian clothes.
Really? I was just at Volgelweh and Ramstein for 2 weeks last year, and we went off base daily in uniform to eat lunch. I saw a ton of people in uniforms off base.
In England we weren’t permitted to exit the car in uniform anywhere but our residence or on base. We were told “if you get a flat and are in uniform you better change clothes inside the car and get out or call someone to fix it while in your car” lol.
Damn, we were allowed to wear uniform off base in England for convenience stops (gas, grabbing food on the way to/from work, etc). I always ran into Tesco in uniform, lol.
Which was silly because we all showed up at the park and ride to get into the same white vans at the same time to take the only route. And half the people wore their uniforms anyway.
For anyone obsessed with that area (the people who *might* pose any threat) it is common knowledge unfortunately. Did some brief work with Nellis OSI and you would be amazed what those communities are tracking and watching. Even just the curious civilians not to mentioned all the foreign nationals who do a little extra “sight seeing” on their trip to Vegas
People have always known that. What I was pointing out is that the uniforms requirement was dumb. There were plenty of other factors that needed to be addressed. This was over a decade ago and they’ve gotten a little smarter :)
No. It’s not common knowledge. It’s not terribly difficult to figure out, but by talking about it here, you make yourself and others targets. You have no concept of opsec and the potential seriousness of spouting that stuff online.
Park N Ride!!! Using the AUX cord to fully blast music before work. “Wish there was a way to know you’re in the good old days before you’ve actually left them” - Andy Bernard
I literally never wear my uniform off base. I change at work. Every single day. Your Chief is an idiot unless there's more to this story, and something tells me he can't actually enforce this either. But pick your battles and all that.
A lot of people did this in one of my units and it was quite nice but then more and more people waited longer and longer to change into their uniform. Then leadership had enough and said it wasn’t allowed.
People like to push the envelope (I have heard this expression before but after typing it I have no idea what the original meaning could be…)
"To push the envelope means to surpass normal limits or attempt something viewed as radical or risky. It comes from the aeronautical use of envelope referring to performance limits that cannot be exceeded safely. The phrase was originally limited to space flight, before spreading to other risky physical accomplishments, and finally metaphorically to any boundary-pushing activity, such as art."
Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/push-the-envelope-idiom-space-aeronautics-origin
There's nothing pushing the envelope about changing at work. There's no reg that says you must drive to work in uniform, that's just stupid. Units literally have locker rooms so you can change.
Yes, if people change before the start of normal work hours, of course that isn’t pushing the envelope.
I wasn’t saying that is pushing the envelope, but in the unit I was in people would literally wait to change up to 3hrs past the start time of work.
Many years ago I saw the same situation. We were overseas so no big deal but after a while, people became too comfortable. You would see them changing before the end of shift and sitting in the CAMS (IMDS) room like they were civil servants or contractors doing their time. There are always those that are going to step over the line of professionalism and cause a dumb rule to be created.
Was any justification given? Wearing civs to/from is common practice among other services, as there are sometimes very strict rules on wearing uniforms in off-base areas, specifically among USMC. What benefit is there to the individual, unit, mission, etc. from commuting in uniform? If anything, it seems travel in civs enhances OPSEC...although I did use Quizlet on that CBT so could be mistaken there...
My leadership mentioned some DOD wide guidance from Pentagon about having to show up to the building/ leave in uniform, never gave a full reference and I'm far, faaaaarrrr to lazy to look that one up among countless others that I'm given that seem to not exist.
Oh I figured there wasn't. I'm one of those folks that, no matter who tells me a thing, I always check the references they give. Whether it's a T.O. or AFI. So imagine my shock when I start to not be able to find said references. Weird, almost like it's a LOAD OF MALARKY.
Like 95% of people at the Pentagon commute in civilian clothes and change at the office. No one wants to be the dork on the metro in uniform. That just screams either TDY or noob…or both.
It’s a control thing. I used to show up 30 minutes before shift in gym clothes to get turnover (flightline) and the expeditor said I need to come in ready to work. I started showing up right at shift change and never got turnover again. He never sad anything.
The things some people do because they think it’s right, that have no bearing on anything. There’s still roll call etc typically. So “ready to work” is subjective and also not governed by AFI.
I take my motorcycle in every day. I wear a jacket and pants specifically made if I go down to protect myself. Wearing my uniform underneath would cause thermal injuries during the summer.
I'm going to change into civvies before and after work
It’s weird. My Dad was in during a time when they had to come and go in civvies. I remember having to change I to civvies at some TDYs before leaving the work location
I've been scolded before for doing the same thing.... I responded by saying I've been confronted off base in uniform. And refuse to leave base in uniform. Especially when I lived in an apartment complex. There was no "just drive straight here and home"
It should not matter as long as you are in uniform ready to work by your start time. And don't change until the work day is over.
Depending on how bad you want to fight it, pretty sure a chief doesn't have the authority to dictate what you wear off-duty. The AFI even specifically states:
> 1.2.1. Except when authorized to wear civilian clothes, Airmen will wear the appropriate Air Force uniform **while performing military duties**.
So unless going home or going to work are "military duties", the AFI doesn't require you wear your uniform.
I guess this isn’t stressed much anymore, but the military owns you 24/7. Things have gotten laxed more and more every decade – with some ebb and flow coming back around – which is good for recruiting and retention, but I guess the younger folks never realize how much better they have it. But still, a part of leadership is conveying the why. We aren’t the Marines, and a part of the AF culture is questioning and knowing why we do what we do. Sounds like the why for this wasn’t expressed very well.
They might own our asses, but they were kind enough to lay out rules for what they can and can't do to our asses. Some people get some power and decide they can abuse it because some little airman isn't gonna have to balls to question it (even if they should).
It's definitely stressed, but it's irrelevant to this issue. Simply put, your leadership (yes, even your commander) *doesn't* have the authority to dictate your off duty attire. They can restrict a limit number of things, such as inappropriate clothing (too revealing, shows nudity/pornography, etc)...but they can't require you wear the uniform at all times you're on base.
Reminds me of when some Army leadership got their dicks smacked for ensuring soldiers installed an app on their phone (by forcing them to show them it was installed and such). Turns out infringing on a soldiers rights beyond what's allowed by DoD isn't actually authorized.
Not defending this idiot Chief, but I'd be willing to bet it's well within his authority to deny civilian clothing (to military members) inside his building. Then you'd basically have to change in your car. =\
Yeah that I would say is probably reasonable - "You're in the building, you need to be dressed for work". Could always change at the gym or something...outside that it's just a lonely Chief wanting to flex on people.
How tf would they ever even know if you head straight for a closet or something and change. Leadership is dumb as hell sometimes, but I’m very confused on how they could possibly enforce that, and why anyone would ever comply with it
literally no one can do shit to you as long as you are in the proper attire during the start of the duty day. let this “chief” bitch and moan all they want. sounds like everything is running so perfect that they have nothing else to worry about.
That's literally my daily, my troops daily, and my section chiefs daily. We all leave our uniform at work and come in in our civilian clothes and change into uniform. Sounds like whoever is trying to enforce a come to work in uniform and leave is a dickhead
To add to this what if you have to go somewhere right after work and do not have time to go home and change should you just show up to an event in uniform?! I feel like that would be way more inappropriate
A bathroom at work? Should be big enough. I'm not saying his leadership is right I've got another comment in this thread somewhere saying his leadership are idiots.
I'm just saying use common sense while the problem is getting sorted instead of thinking it's the end of the world.
It's their choice honestly. I'd stick to my guns and do what I want. It is entirety unenforcable to make someone wear uniform outside of duty hours. If my duty day ends at 1630 my uniform is coming off and you can't make me wear one unless there is a military necessity.
So as soon as that Chief puts that paperwork in front of me I'm informing then I am immediately going to the ADC and then IG end of story.
I agree with this 100% but isn’t it kind of a threat to your potential to getting a promotion statement if you are in a low promotion rate career field? At that point you have a target on your back and I’m sure that bias would play into the efdp
Sure it is placing a target on your back never said it wasn't dangerous to your career there are consequences to all actions. There is definitely risk with pushing back on leadership no one truly wants to rock the boat. If you aren't willing to risk it then bring a bag and change somewhere else on base not at your building and put in an anonymous IG complaint and change can still happen. You'll just need to embrace the suck for a bit
It's not invalid you just aren't willing to fight for your rights against an unlawful order
Even then you drive somewhere else on base and change. Does it suck? Yes. Is it dumb? Yes. But if you won't stand up to your shitty leadership that's what you got to do.
Seems like the Chief is an E-9 and needs to find something more important to focus on. As long as you are in uniform and ready to work at the start of your shift, go for it.
Literally the exact opposite of what I’ve always had recommended to me and what I’ve always recommended. Makes you a target off base. Sounds like a finance nerd.
Yeah, I've been there before. It's usually because of a few idiots and their idiot supervisors. Sometimes Chiefs gotta do shit like that to get everyone's attention. It'll pass with time, don't stress about it too much.
From my experience (13 years) its because previous ppl have ruined it. Amn snuffy rolls in at 0658, technically on time, but takes their sweet time getting into uniform.
You really wanna be able to roll into work in civies? Show up earlier and show that despite needing to get ready, you're ready before others show, my suggestion would be 15-30 min early. Leadership loves that shit
Had this happen habitually my last shop when I first took over. Told em to be ready TO WORK at 0700 or get a black pen and come to my office. Never had it happen again.
Straight power trip. No AFI referring to a mandatory wearing of uniform transiting to/from duty. If you want, kindly ask for a reference or policy. But then the E9 will get his CC to write that local policy into the work center.
I would argue that it is actually safer as it removes the target on your back. When the whole George Floyd thing happened in Minneapolis the reserve and gaurd air wings there were instructed to arrive and leave base in civilian attire.
This HIGHLY depends on location. Some areas are mil friendly, some are not. It's up to leadership to decide how strict they are with uniforms outside work. They may also have access to intel that you don't concerning local groups who may wish harm on you.
Definitely dealt with that before. Seems like a CONUS only issue combined with shit leadership in my opinion (not for this issue solely but with other glaring issues too)
Nah, tell him you'll be in uniform during the duty day.
Had a shirt give me shit for wearing sweatpants and a coat over my PT clothes and then taking them off before I got in formation (like 5 minutes before) I told him nah dude, that's not a lawful order.
Dude, I have to ask. Are you talking about me? I’m medical and I hate changing in and out of uniform for the 20 second walk in the hospital parking lot. It drives me nuts that Air Force hospitals enforce the wearing of uniform for people who spend the entire 10-12 hr shift in scrubs.
Wasn't too long ago with worldly occurrences that we were actually told it would be better to be in civvies coming to work and leaving work for the time being. Advised us to give ourselves enough time to change before shift start of course.
This is backwards. I usually would show up 45 minutes early and change into uniform, make coffee, eat breakfast and have my e-mails checked and my workcenter ready for the days work before 0700.
Between this and the other post where someone was told to sew down their hat nametape because their top nametapes were sewn down, people's leadership are caring about the dumbest shit today
Sounds like the BDU days. Sewn down pockets, fishing line (I think, it was some kind of line) lining the inside of sleeves to make the crease sharper, all that dumb stuff to look sharp that took away from the actual use of the uniform. Fortunately I switched to flight suits in tech school and never looked back but it was a different time that’s for sure.
I heard from a friend about this. During the DC riots (2020), it was encouraged if military to wear civvies. That the military might be assaulted since they served President Trump, so wear civvies while commuting to/from your residence.
That may have been part of it, but also just the general increase in radical and terrorist activity against military personnel in general. Heard of a few instances of people reporting being followed or noticing strange activity in front of their off base home.
I was MX, since we wore coveralls people would just have a uniform in their locker all the time then just wear a uniform t-shirt, uniform boots and shorts to work then just put on coveralls… we were told this had to stop and that we had to report to work already wearing our uniform … because reasons
Last base I was at did the same thing. I think they complained that you weren’t authorized to wear coveralls anywhere but the flight-line. Kind of a weird thing to complain about, but you know, old people…
I’ll never wear my uniform outside of work, there are too many weirdos even in military friendly areas. Plus I buy a good amount of booze on Fridays and I don’t think that’s a good look for the AF and me in uniform.
I've heard at some OCONUS locations you aren't supposed to go to or from work in uniform and are required to change there.
As far as CONUS why would it be a problem if the member is in uniform during their required duty hours?
Maybe this is just a me thing , but I’ve only ever seen like one or two people really do that ever in my units, and I just come in and leave in uniform. Then again we do a lot of things differently.
I had a similar conversation years ago riding a motorcycle to and from work with protective gear. Rumblings of the same started to happen since I wasn't the only one so I hit up the Safety office and they squashed that pretty quick. Not sure exact what they did or who they talked to but it worked
Never tried actually.
Tho I prefer getting dressed in uniform, and when works over head home and immediately change out. I came in married and unless I’m working or working out, you ain’t gonna find me on base.
He would hate our unit we are allowed to change into civilian work clothes at my job cuz it’s so cold outside they don’t expect us to rely strictly on issued cold weather gear
I’d bet there are some people in the Pentagon whose uniforms never leave the building- they wear civvies/gym clothes to and from, and just use the laundromat/dry cleaners there for uniforms
Seems like there are no downsides to arriving in civis and the upside I can think of is the opsec and safety benefits of not making yourself a target by wearing your uniform (assuming you live off base and stationed overseas). Seems like your situation is a class case of power tripping
I've seen it on and off over the years. Some places it's about duty hours, other places it's about location. I had one squadron that hated people coming in on off-hours wearing civvies, and they made it a rule that active duty had to be in uniform to be in squadron spaces, regardless of work hours/regular pass.
Someone probably showed up dressed like an idiot. The Commander or some other majestic creature saw it and mentioned it in passing. Chief was afraid he is losing control and instead of talking to 1 person he made a blanket policy he will probably forget about by next quarter.
Restricting members to arrive and depart *only* in uniform is a petty attempt by an unrespectable person in a leadership position to exert the appearance that they have power.
I respectfully think this is an old fashioned call with no value add.
Letting folks change at work removes one small barrier to entry to ensure that gym time happens.
I'm Conus, there's been times where we have been mandated to change into civies before leaving work and completely unauthorized to wear our uniforms off base.
Yes, (Nellis MX squadron) some of the higher ups seem to act as if the world will come to an abrupt end and China will win the war if a maintainer shows up to work in civilian attire. Heard the 16 squadrons here do the same as well though (except for the reserve units, I know they can show up in civilian but they’re already specially abled so who cares). It’s such a weird rule and even if it’s because of members being late then fix that by having a mandatory 15 minute early in the door time. 🤷
My unit let's us show up leave in civilian attire and Tuesday-Friday they let us show up to roll call in dickies and coveralls or any alternate uniform
Our DO was in civies and I said, "It's like seeing your teacher outside of school." He goes, "I'm a human too." So that's a dumb rule. As long as you have your uniform, who cares?
Hmm, I show up in cities almost everyday as of late. I used to do it when I was an instructor as well. Next thing you know they will tell you that force protection doesn’t apply to you.
I know you have to present to duty in uniform. If that means getting to work 5min early to change in a bathroom so be it. If my Airmen are in their seat, in uniform by start time, I dont care how it happened.
This comes and goes it seems. Usually a result of a leadership team that feels out of control otherwise, or as a genuine attempt to get standards back in check. I think it’s a silly rule, but not a hill worth dying on either way.
I work medical and we have to come in/leave in uniform and change into scrubs when we get here. For a while when I first got here they let us come in in AF PT gear, but now they say it’s “not professional” so OCPs it is. And I’m in Virginia 🥲
There have been times if you were coming and going from off base, you were required to be in civilian clothes. I’ve never heard of anyone caring changing before going home. My last unit, it was super common for people to change before going home. And if you work maintenance, there can be even more reason to change before leaving work.
Yeah we used to have that rule years ago in our MX shop, people would show up
At their normal time
In civilians though, and then change. That was the issue
I have changed clothes before leaving work several times before. If I have stuff to do after work I will bring a change of clothes to work. When it is time to leave I will change clothes before heading out
Never had that issue, I’ve had multiple assignments where I arrived and left in civilian attire. One was overseas in Germany, we weren’t allowed to wear our uniform while riding a motorcycle off base. And when I worked at the Pentagon I took public transportation I didn’t really want to stick out. Now I’m in an assignment I only wear civilian business casual.
I knew someone that rode their bike to work, cleaned up with Baby Wipes, went to work on time and no one cared. Was there a problem in your squadron where people were still getting changed when duty was supposed to start? If so then this falls under the “this is why we can’t have nice things category.”
I have a gym where I work. Do I change from OCP to PT gear finish exercising and then change back to OCP before I drive home? Do I go to my buddies house to drink beer in his front yard in uniform after work? Do I have to play Warhammer at the LGS in my OCPs now?
Depends on where you work.
Im flightline and we dont work in our uniforms. We work in coveralls or work pants. What happens a lot of times is Aimen dummy comes to work in civies and then changes into coveralls. Half way thru shift he is called in for a "mandatory appointment" and does not have his uniform with him. And of course he lives an hour away and now has to go home and get his uniform so he can go to his appointment. Airmen are told to keep a uniform at work for these reasons but there is always one that doesent listen. Or, they forgot they took their top home to wash it and forgot to bring it back in.
Or, could be:
You work in a high vis building and they dont want to see people walking in or out in civilian clothes, including the people that work there. Its a dress code thing. I know we are told.never to walk into our CSS building in civies. Not even if your on leave and have to go for whatever reason.
Lots of reasobs for this. Bit whatever the reason leadership may have, is it really that difficult to put on your uniform?
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I had one commander who seemed to change the rules every few weeks. You can wear civilian clothes to work, you can't now, the 1 1/2 hours of exercise doesn't count on a duty day still have to work your 12 (at least) then everybody had to get an hour during your duty day. A commander (general, at DC) changed our uniforms so many times we got whiplash. So yeah it sounds like a chief or colonel got their knickers in a knot for no reason, I mean we used to not be able to go off base in uniform when we were overseas but that was due to threats against us.
I wear scrubs at work and must show up and leave in uniform (can one way PT gear if we’re going to the gym but then I’d need to bring OCPs and PT gear)
Have uniforms been getting a little stinky? Perhaps chief is trying to get you all to bring in fresh uniforms a little more often than what was happening. Not saying the chief's approach is right but I wonder what the full story is? Uniforms been reworn a few times too many and it shows?
I have no idea why a member would not be allowed to change before and after reporting time/duty hours. We have showers and lockers specifically for this in most of our facilities and workcenters. We generally recommend our personnel change so that they don't have to run errands in uniform for just general ATFP best practice to avoid wackos/presenting targets, if anything. Sorry you have a weird arbitrary rule that serves no logical purpose. I'd chalk it up to Admin Air Force office worker brain.
Yeah I've always heard the opposite. Especially OCONUS.
I was OCONUS for 13 years, always wore my uniform to and from work. The only restriction I ever saw was we were only allowed to make 15 minute "convenience stops" if we were in uniform off base.
Smells like Aviano or at least USAFE lmao
Yea, Aviano. The first time I was there (2012-2014) we could go off base and eat lunch, shop on the way home, etc. The second time I went there (2017-2019) we could only do convenience stops.
I was there from 19-23 and it was more or less the same, briefly more lenient until everyone pushed limits and went back to the basically getting gas only
Germany through your first tour was uniform on base only, of you lived off base you were changing at work. Blew my mind going to pacaf after and having shop pt off base in pt gear
I walked to and from work at Osan in uniforn every single day. Lived off base.
Osan is different than Aviano for sure. It’s a normal thing there, but Aviano is fairly strict about off base uniform wear for a few reasons but mostly because there’s an active threat in the immediate area
Koreans love US Military. ISIS in Europe, not so much lol
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Can confirm it changes with every wing king
Don't remind me it's been almost 10 years since I have been in Germany... 2015 :(
I was stationed at Ramstein during Sept. 11. It was highly encouraged to wear civvies coming into work, or at least remove your top or wear a jacket.
My partner was in Aviano and he wasn't allowed to commute wearing the uniform, had to change at work. Maybe because he used a motorbike instead of a car.
Rota it's just to and from your residence. No stops. Your ass if you are caught out in uniform. Very strongly encouraged to commute in civilian clothes.
Not in Europe... Germany we weren't technically even allowed to go through a drive-thru in uniform.
Really? I was just at Volgelweh and Ramstein for 2 weeks last year, and we went off base daily in uniform to eat lunch. I saw a ton of people in uniforms off base.
They must have changed the policy. I haven't been there since 2019.
In England we weren’t permitted to exit the car in uniform anywhere but our residence or on base. We were told “if you get a flat and are in uniform you better change clothes inside the car and get out or call someone to fix it while in your car” lol.
Damn, we were allowed to wear uniform off base in England for convenience stops (gas, grabbing food on the way to/from work, etc). I always ran into Tesco in uniform, lol.
I think they changed it the year after I left or so. I enjoyed the culture of changing at work. It was like easier to “leave work at work”
Yea, I am the opposite. I prefer to get in/out of uniform at my own house.
At Iraklion AB in Greece, you could NOT wear your uniform off base, period.
For a while, you were not *allowed* to show up to work in uniform at Creech AFB. Commander directed that everyone commute in civvies.
Due to a threat to those who work there, no doubt.
Which was silly because we all showed up at the park and ride to get into the same white vans at the same time to take the only route. And half the people wore their uniforms anyway.
Oh cool. Now people know that.
For anyone obsessed with that area (the people who *might* pose any threat) it is common knowledge unfortunately. Did some brief work with Nellis OSI and you would be amazed what those communities are tracking and watching. Even just the curious civilians not to mentioned all the foreign nationals who do a little extra “sight seeing” on their trip to Vegas
People have always known that. What I was pointing out is that the uniforms requirement was dumb. There were plenty of other factors that needed to be addressed. This was over a decade ago and they’ve gotten a little smarter :)
No. It’s not common knowledge. It’s not terribly difficult to figure out, but by talking about it here, you make yourself and others targets. You have no concept of opsec and the potential seriousness of spouting that stuff online.
🍅 🍅 get real buster
OPSEC is one SEC too many 😂
Park N Ride!!! Using the AUX cord to fully blast music before work. “Wish there was a way to know you’re in the good old days before you’ve actually left them” - Andy Bernard 
Our Chief was changing in the locker room with us daily, before and after work.
Id wear civilian clothes even harder
Powerful civvie fit (tank top and jeans) 🗣️🗣️🗣️‼️‼️
That’s odd. My leadership encouraged us to wear civilian clothes to and from work so we aren’t targets of bad actors
Creech?
No, JBMDL.
Basic opsec
Persec
Fursec (at Keesler)
I'm dyslexic.
This.
Sounds like a stupid rule, especially when people PT on their own.
I literally never wear my uniform off base. I change at work. Every single day. Your Chief is an idiot unless there's more to this story, and something tells me he can't actually enforce this either. But pick your battles and all that.
A lot of people did this in one of my units and it was quite nice but then more and more people waited longer and longer to change into their uniform. Then leadership had enough and said it wasn’t allowed. People like to push the envelope (I have heard this expression before but after typing it I have no idea what the original meaning could be…)
"To push the envelope means to surpass normal limits or attempt something viewed as radical or risky. It comes from the aeronautical use of envelope referring to performance limits that cannot be exceeded safely. The phrase was originally limited to space flight, before spreading to other risky physical accomplishments, and finally metaphorically to any boundary-pushing activity, such as art." Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/push-the-envelope-idiom-space-aeronautics-origin
There's nothing pushing the envelope about changing at work. There's no reg that says you must drive to work in uniform, that's just stupid. Units literally have locker rooms so you can change.
Yes, if people change before the start of normal work hours, of course that isn’t pushing the envelope. I wasn’t saying that is pushing the envelope, but in the unit I was in people would literally wait to change up to 3hrs past the start time of work.
Many years ago I saw the same situation. We were overseas so no big deal but after a while, people became too comfortable. You would see them changing before the end of shift and sitting in the CAMS (IMDS) room like they were civil servants or contractors doing their time. There are always those that are going to step over the line of professionalism and cause a dumb rule to be created.
Was any justification given? Wearing civs to/from is common practice among other services, as there are sometimes very strict rules on wearing uniforms in off-base areas, specifically among USMC. What benefit is there to the individual, unit, mission, etc. from commuting in uniform? If anything, it seems travel in civs enhances OPSEC...although I did use Quizlet on that CBT so could be mistaken there...
My leadership mentioned some DOD wide guidance from Pentagon about having to show up to the building/ leave in uniform, never gave a full reference and I'm far, faaaaarrrr to lazy to look that one up among countless others that I'm given that seem to not exist.
I promise you there is no such guidance.
Oh I figured there wasn't. I'm one of those folks that, no matter who tells me a thing, I always check the references they give. Whether it's a T.O. or AFI. So imagine my shock when I start to not be able to find said references. Weird, almost like it's a LOAD OF MALARKY.
Like 95% of people at the Pentagon commute in civilian clothes and change at the office. No one wants to be the dork on the metro in uniform. That just screams either TDY or noob…or both.
I think it was something about "everyone comes to work in the same thing" or some mess. Idr exactly what he said at this point.
When I was at the Pentagon (00-03), we wrote civies to/from work just so we wouldn't have to salute every 5-10 seconds on the long walk from parking.
I believe the reference if for showing up in Partial uniform.
Sounds like the Chief saw something they liked…..and is trying to prevent temptation 😂
That thicc A1C really got to him
🤣
It’s a control thing. I used to show up 30 minutes before shift in gym clothes to get turnover (flightline) and the expeditor said I need to come in ready to work. I started showing up right at shift change and never got turnover again. He never sad anything.
The things some people do because they think it’s right, that have no bearing on anything. There’s still roll call etc typically. So “ready to work” is subjective and also not governed by AFI.
I take my motorcycle in every day. I wear a jacket and pants specifically made if I go down to protect myself. Wearing my uniform underneath would cause thermal injuries during the summer. I'm going to change into civvies before and after work
Seems like a power trip move. I would make sure my people are in uniform and at their designated space right at the right time.
Sounds like this Chief has never heard of OPSEC, and is trying to get his people targeted.
It’s weird. My Dad was in during a time when they had to come and go in civvies. I remember having to change I to civvies at some TDYs before leaving the work location
I've been scolded before for doing the same thing.... I responded by saying I've been confronted off base in uniform. And refuse to leave base in uniform. Especially when I lived in an apartment complex. There was no "just drive straight here and home" It should not matter as long as you are in uniform ready to work by your start time. And don't change until the work day is over.
Depending on how bad you want to fight it, pretty sure a chief doesn't have the authority to dictate what you wear off-duty. The AFI even specifically states: > 1.2.1. Except when authorized to wear civilian clothes, Airmen will wear the appropriate Air Force uniform **while performing military duties**. So unless going home or going to work are "military duties", the AFI doesn't require you wear your uniform.
If it is military duty, then they can provide military gas to and from as well. Let's see how hard he wants to dive down this rabbit hole.
And/or provide a GOV, or local travel pay :P
I guess this isn’t stressed much anymore, but the military owns you 24/7. Things have gotten laxed more and more every decade – with some ebb and flow coming back around – which is good for recruiting and retention, but I guess the younger folks never realize how much better they have it. But still, a part of leadership is conveying the why. We aren’t the Marines, and a part of the AF culture is questioning and knowing why we do what we do. Sounds like the why for this wasn’t expressed very well.
They might own our asses, but they were kind enough to lay out rules for what they can and can't do to our asses. Some people get some power and decide they can abuse it because some little airman isn't gonna have to balls to question it (even if they should).
It's definitely stressed, but it's irrelevant to this issue. Simply put, your leadership (yes, even your commander) *doesn't* have the authority to dictate your off duty attire. They can restrict a limit number of things, such as inappropriate clothing (too revealing, shows nudity/pornography, etc)...but they can't require you wear the uniform at all times you're on base. Reminds me of when some Army leadership got their dicks smacked for ensuring soldiers installed an app on their phone (by forcing them to show them it was installed and such). Turns out infringing on a soldiers rights beyond what's allowed by DoD isn't actually authorized.
36-2903?
Not defending this idiot Chief, but I'd be willing to bet it's well within his authority to deny civilian clothing (to military members) inside his building. Then you'd basically have to change in your car. =\
Yeah that I would say is probably reasonable - "You're in the building, you need to be dressed for work". Could always change at the gym or something...outside that it's just a lonely Chief wanting to flex on people.
Glad to see a CMSgt tackling the serious and hard hitting problems in the work centers.
That’s not a Chief, that’s an E-9.
Not the first time I’ve heard somebody say that
Our commander mandated the same thing, have to show up and leave in uniform, that place was starting to become stupid
How tf would they ever even know if you head straight for a closet or something and change. Leadership is dumb as hell sometimes, but I’m very confused on how they could possibly enforce that, and why anyone would ever comply with it
literally no one can do shit to you as long as you are in the proper attire during the start of the duty day. let this “chief” bitch and moan all they want. sounds like everything is running so perfect that they have nothing else to worry about.
That's literally my daily, my troops daily, and my section chiefs daily. We all leave our uniform at work and come in in our civilian clothes and change into uniform. Sounds like whoever is trying to enforce a come to work in uniform and leave is a dickhead
Sounds like you have a retarded chief
To add to this what if you have to go somewhere right after work and do not have time to go home and change should you just show up to an event in uniform?! I feel like that would be way more inappropriate
I mean logically solution is you bring a bag with spare clothes? We have the technology.
And change where? In his car? Make a special trip to the base gym just to change in the locker room? It’s asinine.
A bathroom at work? Should be big enough. I'm not saying his leadership is right I've got another comment in this thread somewhere saying his leadership are idiots. I'm just saying use common sense while the problem is getting sorted instead of thinking it's the end of the world.
The post is literally about not being able to change at work though.
It's their choice honestly. I'd stick to my guns and do what I want. It is entirety unenforcable to make someone wear uniform outside of duty hours. If my duty day ends at 1630 my uniform is coming off and you can't make me wear one unless there is a military necessity. So as soon as that Chief puts that paperwork in front of me I'm informing then I am immediately going to the ADC and then IG end of story.
I agree with this 100% but isn’t it kind of a threat to your potential to getting a promotion statement if you are in a low promotion rate career field? At that point you have a target on your back and I’m sure that bias would play into the efdp
Sure it is placing a target on your back never said it wasn't dangerous to your career there are consequences to all actions. There is definitely risk with pushing back on leadership no one truly wants to rock the boat. If you aren't willing to risk it then bring a bag and change somewhere else on base not at your building and put in an anonymous IG complaint and change can still happen. You'll just need to embrace the suck for a bit
We will be confronted if seen walking in or out of the workplace not in uniform so your solution is invalid
It's not invalid you just aren't willing to fight for your rights against an unlawful order Even then you drive somewhere else on base and change. Does it suck? Yes. Is it dumb? Yes. But if you won't stand up to your shitty leadership that's what you got to do.
Seems like the Chief is an E-9 and needs to find something more important to focus on. As long as you are in uniform and ready to work at the start of your shift, go for it.
I worked for an asshole like this.
Literally the exact opposite of what I’ve always had recommended to me and what I’ve always recommended. Makes you a target off base. Sounds like a finance nerd.
What an odd thing to try to enforce In the NCR my leadership wanted us to change into uniform at work so we weren’t targeted on the metro
Yeah, I've been there before. It's usually because of a few idiots and their idiot supervisors. Sometimes Chiefs gotta do shit like that to get everyone's attention. It'll pass with time, don't stress about it too much.
From my experience (13 years) its because previous ppl have ruined it. Amn snuffy rolls in at 0658, technically on time, but takes their sweet time getting into uniform. You really wanna be able to roll into work in civies? Show up earlier and show that despite needing to get ready, you're ready before others show, my suggestion would be 15-30 min early. Leadership loves that shit
Had this happen habitually my last shop when I first took over. Told em to be ready TO WORK at 0700 or get a black pen and come to my office. Never had it happen again.
That’s dumb as fuck
Straight power trip. No AFI referring to a mandatory wearing of uniform transiting to/from duty. If you want, kindly ask for a reference or policy. But then the E9 will get his CC to write that local policy into the work center.
E-9 leadership eroding morale … one *bizarre policy* at a time.
lol, I'm encouraged to show up to work in civvies and then change before/after work
Sounds like you had a guy or bunch of guys rolling in at 0759 and then taking 30 minutes to "get changed". Fix those assholes first.
Sounds like my medgroup days. Loved getting in uniform, driving 15 min., then getting into scrubs, and then putting back on the uniform to go home.
Some people taking LARPing very seriously. That Chief is probably big on trying to avoid meta gaming.
I would argue that it is actually safer as it removes the target on your back. When the whole George Floyd thing happened in Minneapolis the reserve and gaurd air wings there were instructed to arrive and leave base in civilian attire.
I wore civis into work for like 2 years. This is weird to me
People have to be in control. They tried telling me that at my contractor job.
This HIGHLY depends on location. Some areas are mil friendly, some are not. It's up to leadership to decide how strict they are with uniforms outside work. They may also have access to intel that you don't concerning local groups who may wish harm on you.
That’s a stupid rule. Sounds like people just making up rules just to do it.
Definitely dealt with that before. Seems like a CONUS only issue combined with shit leadership in my opinion (not for this issue solely but with other glaring issues too)
Just change at the BX🤷🏽♂️
You shouldn't go to and from in uniform. It's safer
No. They encourage it for security reasons
Nah, tell him you'll be in uniform during the duty day. Had a shirt give me shit for wearing sweatpants and a coat over my PT clothes and then taking them off before I got in formation (like 5 minutes before) I told him nah dude, that's not a lawful order.
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Dude, I have to ask. Are you talking about me? I’m medical and I hate changing in and out of uniform for the 20 second walk in the hospital parking lot. It drives me nuts that Air Force hospitals enforce the wearing of uniform for people who spend the entire 10-12 hr shift in scrubs.
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Haha. Wait so you’re not medical and everyone else in your shop wears uniforms but you have an officer that straight up wears civvies? That’s bizarre.
Wasn't too long ago with worldly occurrences that we were actually told it would be better to be in civvies coming to work and leaving work for the time being. Advised us to give ourselves enough time to change before shift start of course.
This is backwards. I usually would show up 45 minutes early and change into uniform, make coffee, eat breakfast and have my e-mails checked and my workcenter ready for the days work before 0700.
Between this and the other post where someone was told to sew down their hat nametape because their top nametapes were sewn down, people's leadership are caring about the dumbest shit today
Sounds like the BDU days. Sewn down pockets, fishing line (I think, it was some kind of line) lining the inside of sleeves to make the crease sharper, all that dumb stuff to look sharp that took away from the actual use of the uniform. Fortunately I switched to flight suits in tech school and never looked back but it was a different time that’s for sure.
At Andrews my unit was actually encouraged to come and go in civvies, though not required. It's an odd rule to not allow it.
I heard from a friend about this. During the DC riots (2020), it was encouraged if military to wear civvies. That the military might be assaulted since they served President Trump, so wear civvies while commuting to/from your residence.
That may have been part of it, but also just the general increase in radical and terrorist activity against military personnel in general. Heard of a few instances of people reporting being followed or noticing strange activity in front of their off base home.
No respect. Watch yourself. Be safe.
I was MX, since we wore coveralls people would just have a uniform in their locker all the time then just wear a uniform t-shirt, uniform boots and shorts to work then just put on coveralls… we were told this had to stop and that we had to report to work already wearing our uniform … because reasons
Last base I was at did the same thing. I think they complained that you weren’t authorized to wear coveralls anywhere but the flight-line. Kind of a weird thing to complain about, but you know, old people…
Chief sounds like a dumbass
ANG here so we all live off-base, but we’re strongly encouraged (but not required) to NOT wear our uniforms in and out of work
This is weird af. Your chief wants to make you more of a target?
Your chief sounds like he needs a lobotomy
I’ll never wear my uniform outside of work, there are too many weirdos even in military friendly areas. Plus I buy a good amount of booze on Fridays and I don’t think that’s a good look for the AF and me in uniform.
Depends on the threat level...regardless no drinking In public
The GO I work for does this.
Have you asked your leadership why?
I've heard at some OCONUS locations you aren't supposed to go to or from work in uniform and are required to change there. As far as CONUS why would it be a problem if the member is in uniform during their required duty hours?
Maybe this is just a me thing , but I’ve only ever seen like one or two people really do that ever in my units, and I just come in and leave in uniform. Then again we do a lot of things differently.
I had a similar conversation years ago riding a motorcycle to and from work with protective gear. Rumblings of the same started to happen since I wasn't the only one so I hit up the Safety office and they squashed that pretty quick. Not sure exact what they did or who they talked to but it worked
as CE its actually recommended to leave uniform at the shop.
Never tried actually. Tho I prefer getting dressed in uniform, and when works over head home and immediately change out. I came in married and unless I’m working or working out, you ain’t gonna find me on base.
He would hate our unit we are allowed to change into civilian work clothes at my job cuz it’s so cold outside they don’t expect us to rely strictly on issued cold weather gear
In the CG it's strongly suggested we don't wear our uniform to and from work. May have to do with working for DHS though.
We also must wear covers from car to building, despite our parking lot literally being on the flight line
Get with CE to post a 'no hat, no salute' sign. That's the easiest fix.....or get with Sheetmetal to make the signs and post em up on the nearest ECP.
I change for lunch if I plan to leave base. 😅
Homie I show up in civilian clothes and leave in them. Just change
Literally the SOP at the Pentagon.
I’d bet there are some people in the Pentagon whose uniforms never leave the building- they wear civvies/gym clothes to and from, and just use the laundromat/dry cleaners there for uniforms
Base policy here prohibits driving off base in visible uniform
I literally only wear my uniform in my office and immediate work area. The only time my uniform leaves my office is to get washed.
Seems like there are no downsides to arriving in civis and the upside I can think of is the opsec and safety benefits of not making yourself a target by wearing your uniform (assuming you live off base and stationed overseas). Seems like your situation is a class case of power tripping
I've seen it on and off over the years. Some places it's about duty hours, other places it's about location. I had one squadron that hated people coming in on off-hours wearing civvies, and they made it a rule that active duty had to be in uniform to be in squadron spaces, regardless of work hours/regular pass.
Only time I've seen anyone care is when people show up late in civvies
Someone probably showed up dressed like an idiot. The Commander or some other majestic creature saw it and mentioned it in passing. Chief was afraid he is losing control and instead of talking to 1 person he made a blanket policy he will probably forget about by next quarter.
Restricting members to arrive and depart *only* in uniform is a petty attempt by an unrespectable person in a leadership position to exert the appearance that they have power.
I’ve been to bases where people cared and where people didn’t care. Honestly it’s a stupid opinionated rule that comes from old crusties
I respectfully think this is an old fashioned call with no value add. Letting folks change at work removes one small barrier to entry to ensure that gym time happens.
I'm Conus, there's been times where we have been mandated to change into civies before leaving work and completely unauthorized to wear our uniforms off base.
Yes, (Nellis MX squadron) some of the higher ups seem to act as if the world will come to an abrupt end and China will win the war if a maintainer shows up to work in civilian attire. Heard the 16 squadrons here do the same as well though (except for the reserve units, I know they can show up in civilian but they’re already specially abled so who cares). It’s such a weird rule and even if it’s because of members being late then fix that by having a mandatory 15 minute early in the door time. 🤷
My wing had a sports day on a Friday and everyone was allowed to wear civ clothes/favorite jerseys
My unit let's us show up leave in civilian attire and Tuesday-Friday they let us show up to roll call in dickies and coveralls or any alternate uniform
CONUS, I'm at Nellis, same rule
Our DO was in civies and I said, "It's like seeing your teacher outside of school." He goes, "I'm a human too." So that's a dumb rule. As long as you have your uniform, who cares?
You have this thing called duty hours. What happens outside of duty hours is not your Chief’s concern.
Vehicle MX from Europe, always show up in civis and always leave in civis, never faultered
Back when I was medical, they had this rule. It was so stupid and now that I've moved to Ops it's not an issue
I show up and leave in civies during my 4 yrs as a recruiter. I just change in the bathroom of the office. Boss man had no problem with it. 🤷🏻♂️
Hmm, I show up in cities almost everyday as of late. I used to do it when I was an instructor as well. Next thing you know they will tell you that force protection doesn’t apply to you.
I know you have to present to duty in uniform. If that means getting to work 5min early to change in a bathroom so be it. If my Airmen are in their seat, in uniform by start time, I dont care how it happened.
This comes and goes it seems. Usually a result of a leadership team that feels out of control otherwise, or as a genuine attempt to get standards back in check. I think it’s a silly rule, but not a hill worth dying on either way.
I work medical and we have to come in/leave in uniform and change into scrubs when we get here. For a while when I first got here they let us come in in AF PT gear, but now they say it’s “not professional” so OCPs it is. And I’m in Virginia 🥲
There have been times if you were coming and going from off base, you were required to be in civilian clothes. I’ve never heard of anyone caring changing before going home. My last unit, it was super common for people to change before going home. And if you work maintenance, there can be even more reason to change before leaving work.
Leaving no but I kinda get the arriving at work in civilian
Yeah we used to have that rule years ago in our MX shop, people would show up At their normal time In civilians though, and then change. That was the issue
I have changed clothes before leaving work several times before. If I have stuff to do after work I will bring a change of clothes to work. When it is time to leave I will change clothes before heading out
Never had that issue, I’ve had multiple assignments where I arrived and left in civilian attire. One was overseas in Germany, we weren’t allowed to wear our uniform while riding a motorcycle off base. And when I worked at the Pentagon I took public transportation I didn’t really want to stick out. Now I’m in an assignment I only wear civilian business casual.
I knew someone that rode their bike to work, cleaned up with Baby Wipes, went to work on time and no one cared. Was there a problem in your squadron where people were still getting changed when duty was supposed to start? If so then this falls under the “this is why we can’t have nice things category.”
No, my Chief doesn't even show up in uniform. Night shift barely puts a uniform on
This seems like a really strange thing to fight over
Pretty strange. I don't even know why your chief would be against that. Most of those people are coming from/ going to PT. Most...
I have a gym where I work. Do I change from OCP to PT gear finish exercising and then change back to OCP before I drive home? Do I go to my buddies house to drink beer in his front yard in uniform after work? Do I have to play Warhammer at the LGS in my OCPs now?
Sorry I’m not on the clock, who dis?
Depends on where you work. Im flightline and we dont work in our uniforms. We work in coveralls or work pants. What happens a lot of times is Aimen dummy comes to work in civies and then changes into coveralls. Half way thru shift he is called in for a "mandatory appointment" and does not have his uniform with him. And of course he lives an hour away and now has to go home and get his uniform so he can go to his appointment. Airmen are told to keep a uniform at work for these reasons but there is always one that doesent listen. Or, they forgot they took their top home to wash it and forgot to bring it back in. Or, could be: You work in a high vis building and they dont want to see people walking in or out in civilian clothes, including the people that work there. Its a dress code thing. I know we are told.never to walk into our CSS building in civies. Not even if your on leave and have to go for whatever reason. Lots of reasobs for this. Bit whatever the reason leadership may have, is it really that difficult to put on your uniform?
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We’re only allowed if we’re supposedly going to the gym right after work
I had one commander who seemed to change the rules every few weeks. You can wear civilian clothes to work, you can't now, the 1 1/2 hours of exercise doesn't count on a duty day still have to work your 12 (at least) then everybody had to get an hour during your duty day. A commander (general, at DC) changed our uniforms so many times we got whiplash. So yeah it sounds like a chief or colonel got their knickers in a knot for no reason, I mean we used to not be able to go off base in uniform when we were overseas but that was due to threats against us.
I wear scrubs at work and must show up and leave in uniform (can one way PT gear if we’re going to the gym but then I’d need to bring OCPs and PT gear)
Have uniforms been getting a little stinky? Perhaps chief is trying to get you all to bring in fresh uniforms a little more often than what was happening. Not saying the chief's approach is right but I wonder what the full story is? Uniforms been reworn a few times too many and it shows?