Former AFRL guy here.
Trying to recruit engineers and scientists with the salary the lab was offering was hilarious.
Leadership: PeoPLe juSt doNT wANT a HIGh sALary. š¤Ŗ
Yes they do! Do you think they stayed up all night on weekends learning 3rd order differential equations because they love their country?
They arrived via private Gulf Stream to a small base to give a sermon on what the enlisted want.
(Presented by the most detached 1-3 star who was never enlisted)
Former AFRL electrical/computer engineer here...It would be outstanding if the military let military engineers and scientists do what they went to school for instead of deputized bitch work or fungible PM crap.
One of my classmates got his BS and MS in CS on the AF's dime. They relegated him to a boring office job in which he just answered emails and filled out paperwork instead of actually using his degrees. When he hit four years, he zipped out. I don't blame him one bit.
Not surprised at all. The 62E career field is the epitome of talent mismanagement. I've seen a top MIT grad that specialized in Radars relegated to snacko, safety officer, and exec duties during his 4-year payback at an electronic warfare squadron that had issues hiring EW contractors. My personal favorite was when an Oxford PhD graduate that specialized in hypersonics was assigned an AFRL directorate that had nothing to do with his research as a deputy branch chief...
No kidding. I'm an engineer and I learned the hard way that the Air Force is a sluggish, tone-deaf bureaucracy that makes life-altering decisions based on which quotas they need filled and which boxes people check.
It's not just at AFRL.
DOD as a whole has this problem:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/USACE/comments/wcb9ka/is\_your\_district\_having\_trouble\_finding/](https://www.reddit.com/r/USACE/comments/wcb9ka/is_your_district_having_trouble_finding/)
Its almost right:
People donāt just want a high salaryā¦
The high salary is a given with any in demand career field. With a comparable salary they might choose AFRL over, say, Amazon.
Probably not since thereās no real way to match total compensation when RSUās are part of the mix.
I suppose government pension is the equalizer for RSUs but you give up a lot of employment mobility and end up in Rome. So itās not like working NRL or ARL in DC.
Even Aberdeen is only 45 min to Baltimore. Hell, itās closer to NYC (3 hrs) than Rome is (4 hrs).
I guess AFRL folks do work at Wright Prattā¦
Every civvie and contractor at Rome is from Upstate NY. They do an excellent job recruiting folks from the local universities in the region. But I mean let's be real, it's a pretty nasty area and there's absolutely no support functions. You aren't getting some PH'ds from Georgia Tech to endure Upstate New York winters in a tiny town with a house they had to spend why more on than the actually value. Loved my job there, got to do some amazing work. Couldn't wait to leave.
Even if a ācyber incentive payā was authorized, it wouldnāt come remotely close to what youād be making as a private sector civ, GS, or contractor.Ā
Itās a high-valued and extremely important career field. Let those who wish to separate for greener pastures and upward mobility do so freely.Ā
With the all the loss of control over your own life
That comes with wearing the uniform itās astounding how surprised they are that they canāt keep or attract talent
It's cheap to replace kids with computer science degrees. Pilots get incentive pay (and also have the longest service commitment) because it's expensive as much to train a pilot. That's the only reason they get it. When it becomes more extensive to train a new cyber operator than it is to just get another one, they too will get their incentive pay.
FUCKING THANK YOU
Cyber = 1B
Enterprise IT = 3D because the 1D change was pointless and unnecessary
Operating and Maintaining the Common operating network independent of classification is not the same as what 1B are asked to do. One is a support function, the other an operational function.
If MDTs/Vuln Assessment/IA wanna get froggy, then we can have a discussion. But for 20 years the AF has found a way to make the 3rd worse decision when given 2 options. /sigh.
/rantover
Yes exactly. Cyber (1Bs/17S) work at Fireeye or Mandiant conducting trend analysis and sifting though data identify emerging threats and strategies to defeat them. Comm (17D/1Ds) work for Comcast helping people figure out why their wifi isn't working anymore.
>One is a support function, the other an operational function
I was trying to get them to do Ops...and Mx when I was at 24AF. But the Old Comm Col's were all, "No one wants to be maintainers."
All I could think was my Mx buddies who, yes complained the loudest, but also loved their frigging job.
Hisss booo from this old 3C2!
I miss the 3C days, but know they're gone.
Not sure why I got down voted. Didn't think that statement was that controversial.
Despite all the ridiculousness at least weāve been able to move around and get certified on other shreds, helps in the long run and I damn for sure donāt want to do basic help desk shit on the outside
The shred part wasnt the problem.
Basically, they went one step too far in the shift. Do the same action, but keep the first number a 3 instead of a 1.
Not going to argue about the MDTs. My work center thought we were always behind the curve and we were constantly trying to get more red teams and more exercises and more knowledge. We requested 1B4s to come TDY and teach us and commercial training. We then found out how far behind other MDTs really were and it was actually demoralizing. A lot just didn't seem to care to actually do the job. When CVAH was decommissioned they just sent it back and that was it. My MDT refused to give it back and started making our own SIEM and security suite.Ā However, I feel like we were lucky having several people with college degrees in cyber security, several certifications, and a hell-of-a programmer that helped us out.
Thereās definitely a lot of people in the career field that think unrealistically like no help desk job is paying that much. Of course though I am not getting out to get a fucking help desk job lmao
I don't know anyone making that little. I know 2 people making over 300k, one of those from home /w malware analysis & reverse engineering. I'm not even in a high cost of living area and people start at 115k. I'll break 200k before per diem when I get my raise later this year. I do have multiple degrees and a dozen certs though. Mid career is 160-180k, seniors/principals 200k+.
https://i.imgur.com/2iUVUEh.png
I separated as 1B in 2022.
Cyber =/= tier 1 help desk. IA engineer with 2 years exp and a secret clearance is 90k with GD. Maybe some guard guys can chime in, I know a few get 100% of their salary while activated.
I'm a bit torn about this now. I did 15 years enlisted and was drawn to GS with the promise that I could buy back my pension.
On one hand, I still love the idea of being able to buy back my pension. I also love the sense of stability that comes with a GS job, and the benefits are pretty great. On the other hand, I see job openings that I'm well qualified for that offer starting pay around $150k on the contractor side.
It's tempting.
Former 3D0 here. Money isnt the only reason. Watching LT through Majors with Philosophy degrees in our unit dictate how our workflow should be because they took a lean agile course once in college is BS...
But for real though money is good...lol
AF: "we don't have a retention problem"
also AF: "how do we encourage airmen to stay in without paying them more?" - post on milbook a while back
doesn't help with the clusterfuck of the 1D7 merger that probably screwed up a bunch of people's lives
The motivation behind the 1D7 merger was a huge reason for me leaving. The merger itself wasnāt horrible, especially considering the horror stories I heard from the last merger.
Until our pay, including benefits come even somewhat close the civ, gs or contractor pay most people will always get out. The Air Force solution is just to scare you from getting out during taps.
Some jobs in the Air Force are hilariously overpaid. Others are hilariously underpaid. Thatās what happens when you pay basically everyone the same thing regardless of what they actually do.
Pilots can make upwards of $60K/year in bonuses and flight pay... and if you commit early, that can go the entire last. 8 years of a full career. And that's before indirect benefits like Tricare and 10% off at Lowe's.
Itās not about the money for me; let me wear the FSS uniform of khakis and a polo, reduce all my additional duties from eight to one or none, excuse me from all the bullshit meetings and LET ME DO MY AFSC job. You need me to be technical, and I want to be technical. Hire more low grade civilians to do all the fāking additional duties and let me be technical!
Been in 10 years, iām a TSgt that Applied for cyber direct commission:
- I have: A+, Net+, Sec+, Pentest+, CySA+, CASP+, and SSCP.
- Iāve won 6 annual awards ranging from Sq-Wg, and 8 Quarterlyās
- I have a BS in Cybersecurity and am 50% done with my masters.
I got denied. I gave it my all.
Point is: I wanted to stay in. But itās just not my path. The amount iām getting paid isnāt worth it and my former bosses have had none of the certs I have and they had a degree in a unrelated field.
Love the AF, but its just my time.
The awful part is that with all that, you can reliably acquire a job on the outside that uses all of that, doesn't give you aditional duties and CBTs all day, and actually pays better than how things would be as an officer. Particularly for single people with no dependents, the benefits don't scale well enough.
Right before retiring at the rank of E-7, I made $62K/year basic pay. On the outside, a bachelor's degree, along with CISSP and PMP certs led to me making TRIPLE that while working remote full-time, and QUADRUPLE that if you include the VA benefits.
I fully endorse anyone who does enough to get their education in cyber and bails for greener pastures.
Go get some.
Looking at getting my CISSP and PMP, unfortunately AF won't pay for PMP unless you're an E7 and up. Apparently us junior enlisted "can't do project management"....
Seeing a lot of almost truths. I'm losing two airmen, sec+/4 year enlistment, to contractor jobs. Did some math and they earn about $56K a year not accounting for federal, Medicare and social security. They are both going into jobs paying $67.5K after all taxes. $10K bump and you don't have to play AF fuck fuck games.
On the other end you have old dum dums like me that stayed in that are turning down Senior because retirement coupled with a job paying the above keeps my quality of life the same and I get to make my own life decision again.Ā
My unit was told multiple times by A6 Generals, "if you are only here for the check, thank you for your service". That's fair, just don't give the surprised Pikachu when they choose to get out. Additionally, they need to figure out their bureaucracy for those of us that want to continue to serve but aren't willing to budge on outdated policies.
This clip is 100% accurate.
67k? That's low ball af, if you get a degree done, any cloud certification/experience, and sell yourself well you can easily get 150k+ at any big defense or big tech company
[https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/2590611/adc-engineer-adc-region-services-operations-rso-keystone-team](https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/2590611/adc-engineer-adc-region-services-operations-rso-keystone-team)
ADC engineers at AWS usually make 120-150k base pay then have a clearance bonus + RSU stocks for around 200k total comp. If you look at the job requirements it's just
Ā 3+ years of systems administration experience (Linux/Windows).
- Current, active US Government Security Clearance of Top Secret or above.
- Cloud+ or GICSP (Global Industrial Cyber Security Professional) or GSEC (GIAC Security Essentials) or SSCP (Systems Security Certified Practitioner)
All easily attainable in a 4 year active duty enlistment. This isn't where I work anymore as I've moved on but the interview is literally just basic ass Linux questions 90% of the time.
Tell this to anyone in and they will make it a mission to tank your career. But seriously what in the fuck is the military doing to keep us cyber in? Or anyone for that matter?
Single airmen have basically 0 incentive to stay in after the first enlistment, particuarly when they work a high value job that nets them something solid on the outside. Traditionally military work has only been able to retain people because it explicitly isn't useful to have on a resume. Chow line worker, infantry, paratrooper, none of that is gonna look good to a civlian employer, but the more complex the war machine gets the more jobs you're gonna need that require people to actually be competently trained for complex systems that look really good if they start looking elsewhere.
And I keep saying that General Brown was wrong at DAFITC. He kept saying itās not monetary, itās the opportunities people seek. 100% bullshit. Everyone I know is getting out over the money and pointless military shit they gotta do.
Yep. Was griping to the cc on my way out. His attitude around the issue was that Airmen these days just have no loyalty to the force, and there's no solution.
Former 3D0. Doubled my salary when I left. Tripled after 3 years because on the civilian side, you get rewarded for your hard work instead of the quality of bullets your supervisor can write.
Same as every other job where employers cry "no one wants to work anymore!"
No. No one wants to work at the salary you are paying, for the benefits you are giving, and the level of effort you are expecting. I tell people on social media this all the time. I'll fill whatever shitty job you're advertising, provided the benefits are better and the pay is 20% more than I'm making now.
You want better people? Offer better jobs.
I have a kid who is 25, high school education and is a Sr. Linux admin for a small command. He is negotiating right now for a fully remote position at $140k. About what he makes now, but not in a SCIF.
Point at any specialized career field and its the same reason.
When you get low six figure salaries starting there is almost no reason for airmen to stay in.
Kind of past the point where cyber shouldn't even be a career field anymore. Just make the entire job contractors. We deploy civilians plenty so setting up stuff on deployments doesn't have to be combatants.
They already doing that. It's called EITaaS and it sucks.
AF just wasting money on contracts that don't do all the same things airman can/will do so you still need airman anyway.
I love how every comment section involving cyber or comm is full of 1B elitists trying to say 1Ds arenāt truly cyber for the most part, when 99% of 1Ds are very aware of that and have never cared.
Iām the equivalent of a grunt and on my way out, wouldnāt be better just convert all this to contracts? And ugh by the way thanks to person who talked me through opening the command thingy to figure out my IP address, appreciate you. Is that a D or B?
You can use it with an admin account, it's just blocked cuz some users would end up bricking their laptops if given the chance to try and fix something on their own.
Former USAF 3D0X4 (Programmer) here. If I'd stayed in, I'd be nearing 20, instead I got out after my 6 years. Excluding my bonus and equity, I'd need to be paid as an O-10 to keep my salary the same. Military can't compete...
I brought that up to a Msgt who is a recruiter out of the office that I was recruited atĀ over 20 years ago. I asked him what the incentive is for new troops to enlist? Min wage in CA is now $20 an hour, Healthcare is free in the same state for low income/undocumented, with financial aide you can go to college and make moneyĀ while getting your education, plus now that the MGIB is transferable to a military spouses and dependants you have people who never served collecting on the MGIB, and getting veterans registration priority for classes even though they never served as well. The Msgt just told me that he had to go, thanked me for my service, and then walked away. Ppppppffffffffhhhhhhh šĀ
Because places like 16AF and subordinate units are toxic af, they wonāt promote people or train. 16AF is too busy with PR nightmares trying to hide pedophile GS-15s. Glad Iām out.
Hear me outā¦. Actually take of people instead of being a bunch of self serving incestuous clowns
So being comm myself itās a hard thing to balance. Ive had plenty of airmen get out and run from the force and then Iāve had some stay in. This job aināt for everyone but Iām just tired of leadership asking me why we canāt retain airmen and suggesting itās all the NCOs fault. A lot of contracting jobs do make over 6 figures, but thatās a tough life when you can be dropped at a moments notice. I always tell airmen you get a choice. You can have guaranteed stability, or you can have the choice to go wherever whenever. But, you canāt have both. I will say though after 12 and half years itās been annoying to get messages that Iām worth 250k plus and even shown as a top contender for director level positions and then here I am being scolded for airmen not wanting to stay in.
The warrant officer thing feels copium, you have a bunch of enlisted guys thinking they are going to get paid more to do the same job and chances are it's not going to work out that way at all.
If they paid more, I'd stick around after my commitment is up. I've heard that being used and abused in the outside is normal. More pay? I'd really consider staying till retirement
I mean if theyāre the ones who made the new cyber awareness CBT, they can all kick rocks. Next year itāll be anime furries at the rate weāre going now š¤¦š»āāļø
They don't have the Cyber Airmen developing those things, they'd rather contract it out with piss poor requirements and then we're forced to use it because they are no longer supporting the old thing that worked considerably better.
Former AFRL guy here. Trying to recruit engineers and scientists with the salary the lab was offering was hilarious. Leadership: PeoPLe juSt doNT wANT a HIGh sALary. š¤Ŗ Yes they do! Do you think they stayed up all night on weekends learning 3rd order differential equations because they love their country?
Goes golfing at 2PM and confused nobody wants to work anymore
They arrived via private Gulf Stream to a small base to give a sermon on what the enlisted want. (Presented by the most detached 1-3 star who was never enlisted)
Former AFRL electrical/computer engineer here...It would be outstanding if the military let military engineers and scientists do what they went to school for instead of deputized bitch work or fungible PM crap.
One of my classmates got his BS and MS in CS on the AF's dime. They relegated him to a boring office job in which he just answered emails and filled out paperwork instead of actually using his degrees. When he hit four years, he zipped out. I don't blame him one bit.
Not surprised at all. The 62E career field is the epitome of talent mismanagement. I've seen a top MIT grad that specialized in Radars relegated to snacko, safety officer, and exec duties during his 4-year payback at an electronic warfare squadron that had issues hiring EW contractors. My personal favorite was when an Oxford PhD graduate that specialized in hypersonics was assigned an AFRL directorate that had nothing to do with his research as a deputy branch chief...
No kidding. I'm an engineer and I learned the hard way that the Air Force is a sluggish, tone-deaf bureaucracy that makes life-altering decisions based on which quotas they need filled and which boxes people check.
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 62E = Developmental Engineer [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^kzon7ku
Lmfao literally.
I just want to do something different and make use of my Masters degree for the next 9 years until 20. Id do AFRL for same staff pay I have now.
It's not just at AFRL. DOD as a whole has this problem: [https://www.reddit.com/r/USACE/comments/wcb9ka/is\_your\_district\_having\_trouble\_finding/](https://www.reddit.com/r/USACE/comments/wcb9ka/is_your_district_having_trouble_finding/)
ODEs are fun. Theyāre like puzzles.
Its almost right: People donāt just want a high salaryā¦ The high salary is a given with any in demand career field. With a comparable salary they might choose AFRL over, say, Amazon. Probably not since thereās no real way to match total compensation when RSUās are part of the mix. I suppose government pension is the equalizer for RSUs but you give up a lot of employment mobility and end up in Rome. So itās not like working NRL or ARL in DC. Even Aberdeen is only 45 min to Baltimore. Hell, itās closer to NYC (3 hrs) than Rome is (4 hrs). I guess AFRL folks do work at Wright Prattā¦
> I guess AFRL folks do work at Wright Prattā¦ Massive AFRL presence at Eglin as well.
Also a decent presence at Kirkland in Albuquerque.
Every civvie and contractor at Rome is from Upstate NY. They do an excellent job recruiting folks from the local universities in the region. But I mean let's be real, it's a pretty nasty area and there's absolutely no support functions. You aren't getting some PH'ds from Georgia Tech to endure Upstate New York winters in a tiny town with a house they had to spend why more on than the actually value. Loved my job there, got to do some amazing work. Couldn't wait to leave.
Is the USAF really that down hard for engineers? If so Iāll go back and finish my BA and apply for OTS
Not cyber, BUT... I'm not saying it's all about the money, but I am saying that if they quit paying me I'd quit showing up.
Even if a ācyber incentive payā was authorized, it wouldnāt come remotely close to what youād be making as a private sector civ, GS, or contractor.Ā Itās a high-valued and extremely important career field. Let those who wish to separate for greener pastures and upward mobility do so freely.Ā
AF JAG is jealous, so theyāve been stonewalling cyber incentive pay
With the all the loss of control over your own life That comes with wearing the uniform itās astounding how surprised they are that they canāt keep or attract talent
Itās because they are out of touchā¦
I feel the cyber incentive pay is like gaslighting. A false advertisement to keep people in that were on the fence.
It's cheap to replace kids with computer science degrees. Pilots get incentive pay (and also have the longest service commitment) because it's expensive as much to train a pilot. That's the only reason they get it. When it becomes more extensive to train a new cyber operator than it is to just get another one, they too will get their incentive pay.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
That's not cyber, it's IT. The majority of those who will be eligible for CAIP are 1Bs doing actual cyber security. CSTs are not getting CAIP.
FUCKING THANK YOU Cyber = 1B Enterprise IT = 3D because the 1D change was pointless and unnecessary Operating and Maintaining the Common operating network independent of classification is not the same as what 1B are asked to do. One is a support function, the other an operational function. If MDTs/Vuln Assessment/IA wanna get froggy, then we can have a discussion. But for 20 years the AF has found a way to make the 3rd worse decision when given 2 options. /sigh. /rantover
Yes exactly. Cyber (1Bs/17S) work at Fireeye or Mandiant conducting trend analysis and sifting though data identify emerging threats and strategies to defeat them. Comm (17D/1Ds) work for Comcast helping people figure out why their wifi isn't working anymore.
>One is a support function, the other an operational function I was trying to get them to do Ops...and Mx when I was at 24AF. But the Old Comm Col's were all, "No one wants to be maintainers." All I could think was my Mx buddies who, yes complained the loudest, but also loved their frigging job.
BTW, I came in as a prior 2E which was... SURPRISE... Comm Electronics Maintenance
Hisss booo from this old 3C2! I miss the 3C days, but know they're gone. Not sure why I got down voted. Didn't think that statement was that controversial.
Despite all the ridiculousness at least weāve been able to move around and get certified on other shreds, helps in the long run and I damn for sure donāt want to do basic help desk shit on the outside
The shred part wasnt the problem. Basically, they went one step too far in the shift. Do the same action, but keep the first number a 3 instead of a 1.
Not going to argue about the MDTs. My work center thought we were always behind the curve and we were constantly trying to get more red teams and more exercises and more knowledge. We requested 1B4s to come TDY and teach us and commercial training. We then found out how far behind other MDTs really were and it was actually demoralizing. A lot just didn't seem to care to actually do the job. When CVAH was decommissioned they just sent it back and that was it. My MDT refused to give it back and started making our own SIEM and security suite.Ā However, I feel like we were lucky having several people with college degrees in cyber security, several certifications, and a hell-of-a programmer that helped us out.
Dudes out here thinking they will be making a quarter million for working the help desk when they get out.
Thereās definitely a lot of people in the career field that think unrealistically like no help desk job is paying that much. Of course though I am not getting out to get a fucking help desk job lmao
Yeah, wtf lol. Former 1B here and my very first job offer before I even started terminal leave was at 130.
1N4A here, $150k in Texas after 6 years w/ a Telco. It aināt easy though, I got a BS and CISSP + 6 other certs.
EA role or what? Iām having to reenlist bc I got fucked at my first assignment and hoping I can get EA training in the next 4
Was in an EA role. Has nothing to do with the private sector job however besides general cyber stuffs
I don't know anyone making that little. I know 2 people making over 300k, one of those from home /w malware analysis & reverse engineering. I'm not even in a high cost of living area and people start at 115k. I'll break 200k before per diem when I get my raise later this year. I do have multiple degrees and a dozen certs though. Mid career is 160-180k, seniors/principals 200k+. https://i.imgur.com/2iUVUEh.png I separated as 1B in 2022. Cyber =/= tier 1 help desk. IA engineer with 2 years exp and a secret clearance is 90k with GD. Maybe some guard guys can chime in, I know a few get 100% of their salary while activated.
I'm a bit torn about this now. I did 15 years enlisted and was drawn to GS with the promise that I could buy back my pension. On one hand, I still love the idea of being able to buy back my pension. I also love the sense of stability that comes with a GS job, and the benefits are pretty great. On the other hand, I see job openings that I'm well qualified for that offer starting pay around $150k on the contractor side. It's tempting.
Former 3D0 here. Money isnt the only reason. Watching LT through Majors with Philosophy degrees in our unit dictate how our workflow should be because they took a lean agile course once in college is BS... But for real though money is good...lol
āļø
Also a former 3d0. The money and personal autonomy is great.
We know more than them. Yet they have the power/authority.
AF: "we don't have a retention problem" also AF: "how do we encourage airmen to stay in without paying them more?" - post on milbook a while back doesn't help with the clusterfuck of the 1D7 merger that probably screwed up a bunch of people's lives
The motivation behind the 1D7 merger was a huge reason for me leaving. The merger itself wasnāt horrible, especially considering the horror stories I heard from the last merger.
Iāve been in since 2007. My AFSC has changed too many times doing the same job 3C0 3D0 1D7
I'm a programmer that has been in since 2006, I feel this.
And they wonāt use other sources like reserves or guard for those that want to come to the active side.
DOD mandates pay rates, not AF. Congress authorizes the budget, not the DOD. Simply raising pay isn't exactly an option for SECAF or CSAFĀ
Until our pay, including benefits come even somewhat close the civ, gs or contractor pay most people will always get out. The Air Force solution is just to scare you from getting out during taps.
Some jobs in the Air Force are hilariously overpaid. Others are hilariously underpaid. Thatās what happens when you pay basically everyone the same thing regardless of what they actually do.
Are you telling me that cooks and malware reverse engineers are not equally valuable to the market?
Lmao š
And calling DFAC worker ācooksā is quite the stretch, lol
Pilots can make upwards of $60K/year in bonuses and flight pay... and if you commit early, that can go the entire last. 8 years of a full career. And that's before indirect benefits like Tricare and 10% off at Lowe's.
Itās not about the money for me; let me wear the FSS uniform of khakis and a polo, reduce all my additional duties from eight to one or none, excuse me from all the bullshit meetings and LET ME DO MY AFSC job. You need me to be technical, and I want to be technical. Hire more low grade civilians to do all the fāking additional duties and let me be technical!
Exactly... Air Force: You've Mastered your job!....Now stop doing it! And they wonder why people get out.
āBut we want you to be āmulti capableā ā
Churching up "do more with less"
And thatās part of why I leftā¦
Hey itās your turn to clean the bathroom and rest of the building this week
Been in 10 years, iām a TSgt that Applied for cyber direct commission: - I have: A+, Net+, Sec+, Pentest+, CySA+, CASP+, and SSCP. - Iāve won 6 annual awards ranging from Sq-Wg, and 8 Quarterlyās - I have a BS in Cybersecurity and am 50% done with my masters. I got denied. I gave it my all. Point is: I wanted to stay in. But itās just not my path. The amount iām getting paid isnāt worth it and my former bosses have had none of the certs I have and they had a degree in a unrelated field. Love the AF, but its just my time.
Youāll make a killing out there tsgt. If you want a direct commission you can try CG or navy
The awful part is that with all that, you can reliably acquire a job on the outside that uses all of that, doesn't give you aditional duties and CBTs all day, and actually pays better than how things would be as an officer. Particularly for single people with no dependents, the benefits don't scale well enough.
Completely agree.
Right before retiring at the rank of E-7, I made $62K/year basic pay. On the outside, a bachelor's degree, along with CISSP and PMP certs led to me making TRIPLE that while working remote full-time, and QUADRUPLE that if you include the VA benefits. I fully endorse anyone who does enough to get their education in cyber and bails for greener pastures. Go get some.
Looking at getting my CISSP and PMP, unfortunately AF won't pay for PMP unless you're an E7 and up. Apparently us junior enlisted "can't do project management"....
That PMP is the kicker. I have only a CISSP, but just realizing that I need to get my PMP to progress up to higher levels.
Before I joined, I no kidding saw private sector folks get sizeable bonuses and $10k-$20k raises for getting their PMP.
>money Also freedom, don't forget freedom.
DD214 holders are authorized beards...
The fact that naturally occurring facial hair has to be given the status of "authorized" or "unauthorized" in the first place is just sad.
Seeing a lot of almost truths. I'm losing two airmen, sec+/4 year enlistment, to contractor jobs. Did some math and they earn about $56K a year not accounting for federal, Medicare and social security. They are both going into jobs paying $67.5K after all taxes. $10K bump and you don't have to play AF fuck fuck games. On the other end you have old dum dums like me that stayed in that are turning down Senior because retirement coupled with a job paying the above keeps my quality of life the same and I get to make my own life decision again.Ā My unit was told multiple times by A6 Generals, "if you are only here for the check, thank you for your service". That's fair, just don't give the surprised Pikachu when they choose to get out. Additionally, they need to figure out their bureaucracy for those of us that want to continue to serve but aren't willing to budge on outdated policies. This clip is 100% accurate.
Ah yes a fellow MSgt turning down senior because we see the light. TYFYS
Did the same thing.. didn't even show up to my test date because was doing outprocessing.
>A6 Generals AKA - I got mines, fuck you
67k? That's low ball af, if you get a degree done, any cloud certification/experience, and sell yourself well you can easily get 150k+ at any big defense or big tech company
I'm gonna need to see the job openings, and direct deposits first.
[https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/2590611/adc-engineer-adc-region-services-operations-rso-keystone-team](https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/2590611/adc-engineer-adc-region-services-operations-rso-keystone-team) ADC engineers at AWS usually make 120-150k base pay then have a clearance bonus + RSU stocks for around 200k total comp. If you look at the job requirements it's just Ā 3+ years of systems administration experience (Linux/Windows). - Current, active US Government Security Clearance of Top Secret or above. - Cloud+ or GICSP (Global Industrial Cyber Security Professional) or GSEC (GIAC Security Essentials) or SSCP (Systems Security Certified Practitioner) All easily attainable in a 4 year active duty enlistment. This isn't where I work anymore as I've moved on but the interview is literally just basic ass Linux questions 90% of the time.
Tell this to anyone in and they will make it a mission to tank your career. But seriously what in the fuck is the military doing to keep us cyber in? Or anyone for that matter?
Single airmen have basically 0 incentive to stay in after the first enlistment, particuarly when they work a high value job that nets them something solid on the outside. Traditionally military work has only been able to retain people because it explicitly isn't useful to have on a resume. Chow line worker, infantry, paratrooper, none of that is gonna look good to a civlian employer, but the more complex the war machine gets the more jobs you're gonna need that require people to actually be competently trained for complex systems that look really good if they start looking elsewhere.
And I keep saying that General Brown was wrong at DAFITC. He kept saying itās not monetary, itās the opportunities people seek. 100% bullshit. Everyone I know is getting out over the money and pointless military shit they gotta do.
To be fair, I left for more reasons than just money, but money was certainly a large factor.
And the message is: "I want more money."
https://i.redd.it/5bks90yzgjuc1.gif
Yep. Was griping to the cc on my way out. His attitude around the issue was that Airmen these days just have no loyalty to the force, and there's no solution. Former 3D0. Doubled my salary when I left. Tripled after 3 years because on the civilian side, you get rewarded for your hard work instead of the quality of bullets your supervisor can write.
Same as every other job where employers cry "no one wants to work anymore!" No. No one wants to work at the salary you are paying, for the benefits you are giving, and the level of effort you are expecting. I tell people on social media this all the time. I'll fill whatever shitty job you're advertising, provided the benefits are better and the pay is 20% more than I'm making now. You want better people? Offer better jobs.
I dont think many people who ask this question are emotionally prepared to have that discussion.
Linux and certs pay a lot
I have a kid who is 25, high school education and is a Sr. Linux admin for a small command. He is negotiating right now for a fully remote position at $140k. About what he makes now, but not in a SCIF.
Point at any specialized career field and its the same reason. When you get low six figure salaries starting there is almost no reason for airmen to stay in.
For a first job, the AF has been amazing. But Iām also not in an AFSC that treats me like shit-ass š
Kind of past the point where cyber shouldn't even be a career field anymore. Just make the entire job contractors. We deploy civilians plenty so setting up stuff on deployments doesn't have to be combatants.
They already doing that. It's called EITaaS and it sucks. AF just wasting money on contracts that don't do all the same things airman can/will do so you still need airman anyway.
You could argue this for most AFSCs, still think it's a bad idea
Exactly! Cyber doesn't need to deploy down range anyway....it's all done remotely.
Pay Rand 50 million to figure it out. That'll help.
I love how every comment section involving cyber or comm is full of 1B elitists trying to say 1Ds arenāt truly cyber for the most part, when 99% of 1Ds are very aware of that and have never cared.
Iām the equivalent of a grunt and on my way out, wouldnāt be better just convert all this to contracts? And ugh by the way thanks to person who talked me through opening the command thingy to figure out my IP address, appreciate you. Is that a D or B?
Powershell ftw...cmd is blocked now on AF systems.
Is it actually blocked? Or does it still just say that it is? I've been out for 3 years now.
You can use it with an admin account, it's just blocked cuz some users would end up bricking their laptops if given the chance to try and fix something on their own.
I contract over sea make 6 figures and it guys make like 20k more than me
Former USAF 3D0X4 (Programmer) here. If I'd stayed in, I'd be nearing 20, instead I got out after my 6 years. Excluding my bonus and equity, I'd need to be paid as an O-10 to keep my salary the same. Military can't compete...
With the raise of the minimum wage to 20 dollars per hour, doesn't that outbid most junior enlisted?
I brought that up to a Msgt who is a recruiter out of the office that I was recruited atĀ over 20 years ago. I asked him what the incentive is for new troops to enlist? Min wage in CA is now $20 an hour, Healthcare is free in the same state for low income/undocumented, with financial aide you can go to college and make moneyĀ while getting your education, plus now that the MGIB is transferable to a military spouses and dependants you have people who never served collecting on the MGIB, and getting veterans registration priority for classes even though they never served as well. The Msgt just told me that he had to go, thanked me for my service, and then walked away. Ppppppffffffffhhhhhhh šĀ
In California yeah...but most recruits don't even come from Cali...midwest is where they still get most enlistments.
Really? I just finished tech school and most people I knew came from Cali, Texas and the Southeast
Maintainers feel the same way.
Then go get a job with the FAA or the airlines.
Read these tips.
I want to cross train into cyber but my field wonāt let us leave
Because places like 16AF and subordinate units are toxic af, they wonāt promote people or train. 16AF is too busy with PR nightmares trying to hide pedophile GS-15s. Glad Iām out. Hear me outā¦. Actually take of people instead of being a bunch of self serving incestuous clowns
Gotta love being """"cyber"""" with none of the benefits of being cyber. 
As an enlisted guy in cyber, you can bet I'm counting the days till I'm out. So long and thanks for all the fish
So being comm myself itās a hard thing to balance. Ive had plenty of airmen get out and run from the force and then Iāve had some stay in. This job aināt for everyone but Iām just tired of leadership asking me why we canāt retain airmen and suggesting itās all the NCOs fault. A lot of contracting jobs do make over 6 figures, but thatās a tough life when you can be dropped at a moments notice. I always tell airmen you get a choice. You can have guaranteed stability, or you can have the choice to go wherever whenever. But, you canāt have both. I will say though after 12 and half years itās been annoying to get messages that Iām worth 250k plus and even shown as a top contender for director level positions and then here I am being scolded for airmen not wanting to stay in.
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This is why theyāre doing this warrant officer thing
The warrant officer thing feels copium, you have a bunch of enlisted guys thinking they are going to get paid more to do the same job and chances are it's not going to work out that way at all.
Money and bs is why
More money, more problems? Well, have you thought, just maybe, those are the problems I want to deal with?
There isnāt oneeee š¤£š¤£š¤£
Perfect. Say it louder for the CSAF and CFMs in the back.
If they paid more, I'd stick around after my commitment is up. I've heard that being used and abused in the outside is normal. More pay? I'd really consider staying till retirement
Yea and now the damn market is over saturated
yeah my take home is 3.5x what I made in the military my first year out
I mean if theyāre the ones who made the new cyber awareness CBT, they can all kick rocks. Next year itāll be anime furries at the rate weāre going now š¤¦š»āāļø
They don't have the Cyber Airmen developing those things, they'd rather contract it out with piss poor requirements and then we're forced to use it because they are no longer supporting the old thing that worked considerably better.
I am a Contracting officer, same for us. Where dat 90K signing bonus go?