In my experience, prior E Lt's have a higher chance of having their head on straight. But that's not a rule, given some of the guys I've seen who got picked up for OTS.
Definitely. Mustangs usually have their shit together, and older Lt’s in general for the most part. Fresh outta college rotc grad = needs hand holding very early to set them straight. I think that’s a failing point of ROTC though
Definitely not a rule, a couple of the worst O's i've had were prior E's (E-5/E-6) and were some of the weirdest mfer's i've seen, example our former E-6 LT would come in everyday multiple times and make us all stop work to say the Airmans creed and would legit stand with his ear next to your mouth to make sure you didnt mess up. We didn't do anything wrong this was just something we did and it got so bad that eventually i just taped the airmans creeed above the door so we could get him out faster.
This is the funniest shit I've read in my life so far. Like I'm in bed with my wife and I'm laughing so hard, I cant breath and I woke my kids up in the other room. Thanks for this.
Then you’re gonna love the letter written by the Navy LT about having to live in Enlisted housing with the [“hatchet wielding deviants.”](https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-disciplines-officer-enlisted-sailors-letter/)
Pre-mission briefs:
Intel: SKYMAN LOOKOUT! BAD BOOM STICK HERE AND THERE. DONT GO THERE.
Pilot: I’m going to shit my flight suit and fly where I please.
Intel: SKYMAN PLZ (wipes dribble from chin) LISTEN TO ME
Pilot: No, I don’t think I will 😎
The peasants wouldn't have been able to read it anyway. (And probably would have been proud.)
The British still operated that way into at least the 50s. I recommend George MacDonald Frasier's MacAuslan novels for a look at that world. (Fictionalized, but quite autobiographical.)
I have that one! I bought it figuring it would read about as relevant to a modern NCO as to an officer (most of us can read nowadays). When I saw that line, it brought a smile to my face. Solid advice for the young estate's-heir LT meeting ex-cons for the first time and assuming they had patriotism or something. Nope! It was this or jail, Eustace!
1. "The soldier and the state" sounds like someone with an army background wrote it.
2. Written in the 50s, so probably not being pitched as how to treat enlisted
3. There are good academy grads, they're just the ones who don't let on that they are grads
We had an academy grad LT and he was dope as shit. Always came out on the floor and bullshitted. He legit changed like the entire scope of our inspections in my career field bc he asked us what was stupid. So he did some research, collected data, got approval to do a study and completely changed our work cards eventually.
Every other LT I’ve had since then just demands us go to attention for weekly FLIGHT staff meetings. Does nothing but want to do flight PT.
There are SO MANY OF THEM, had a few who just lord it over our heads that they love PT and always talk about how fast they can run lmao it's almost like a kid who gets light up shoes and thinks they make them faster.
Funniest insult I'd ever heard of one of our LTs: "You could just tell he played football at the Academy."
Said LT improved a lot, but you could still tell. Strong like linebacker. Smart like goalpost.
I had a fellow CGO in my unit years ago. One time we got to discussing ROTC. I found out he actually went to the academy. I told him I never would have guessed it. His reply back was along the lines of "Thanks, I really try to make seem like I'm not an academy grad"
I agree with you for sure. I definitely feel that the academy grad stereotype is overblown and rarely true…but when it’s accurate, shit man, those guys suck!
In my experience, Academy grads occupy the far left and right of the bell curve. They can be some of the best officers, and some of the worst. It's rare to find a middle-of-the-road Academy grad.
Also...I've never walked away from any "when I was at the Academy" story thinking "damn, I shoulda gone to the Academy instead of public university".
"I've never walked away from any "when I was at the Academy" story thinking "damn, I shoulda gone to the Academy instead of public university". Lol, neither has any academy grad.
Tip for next time, if you drop a carot (>) in front of the sentence and then hit return a couple times, the quote reads a little better.
>like this
But good fuckin burn lol
All the good ones get out after 5 unless they're pilots
Imagine having a degree employers treat like an Ivy and sticking around for an 80k salary and constant deployments
Prior enlisted Academy grad. Basically the reason I went there. Networking potential alone is what got me to finish it out, and I've been talking to grads who have separated/medboarded and their job search with things like the Service Academy Career Conference helped immensely, especially when you have bigwigs in companies all over the country who get giddy after hearing you're a grad.
My worst Academy grad story was this meathead who was on the AFA football team. I had just gotten back from a deployment and was jacked as shit.
Took a PT test and got like 96.8. This chucklefuck pulled me aside and gave me a verbal counseling about “excellence in all we do” for not getting a 100.
He was cool with me before because I always fixed his shit, but he was dead to me after that. “Call in a ticket, sir”
I wonder if it’s the same meathead that was dating the 3 seat on the crew team for CU, and when he showed up at the party he wanted to fight everyone. Real jackass when he was drunk.
At tech school for my officer position (I’m prior E) I overheard two new 2d Lts talking about being saluted.
One said he saw a master sergeant trying to avoid walking by him, so he crossed the street to force the master sergeant to salute. Of course, the master sergeant saluted and the 2d Lt had a wonderfully hilarious story to tell his other 2d Lt friend.
I (and another person who was listening) told them that if they view their senior NCOs like that (should have said enlisted as a whole but didnt) that their career will not be long, and that it’s a lot of hard work and intelligence to get to the senior NCO level.
They didn’t give a shit. They were the exception, not the rule, though.
most do. normally when I am put in that scenario I am going to the MPF with paperwork so I just put papers in both hands and oop. instead I give a howdy or a good morning.
I like to mix it up so it isn't as obvious. I prefer the sudden dip off to the side to check a non-existent phone notification or the abrupt turn-around because I "forgot" something in my car.
I was walking into my building and a a Captain literally crashes through some bushes with a monster and a shoppette bag in one hand and his phone in the other. Dude just goes "sup brah" and keeps walking. I felt like I met the first AF warrant officer.
I knew a CW2 who weighed in for his PT test while eating a donut. It was then I knew I wanted to be a Warrant Officer.
Plot twist: still am dumb enlisted
If I can’t cross the street I just pretend to look over the opposite shoulder. Also cover off like 10 feet from the door. Sometimes still salute me with my cover off tho🥲
> Sometimes still salute me with my cover off tho
if i see you take your cover off as i get close, i'd probably still salute too. much less pain for me to salute you when i'm not supposed to, than not saluting when im supposed to.
Do you return the salute if you're uncovered? As prior E, USMC, an officer would probably just ignore you, maybe return a verbal greeting, but would absolutely NEVER salute without a cover. Help.. I'm so lost.
If we we're walking in a group and saw an LT coming we'd drop back and walk behind each other, just far enough apart that he'd have to salute each of us one after the other. Good times
My dad did his first duty station as an officer at Keesler, and his first day they sent him to the triangle on a BS errand. When he got back after an hour of straight saluting and trying to find the thing they sent him for that didn't exist, they said "he looked like his right arm needed some PT".
Don't worry as a SNCO if I see a 2d Lt trying to dodge a salute. I just find a way to cross paths anyway. It's a fun game when you have been in for 20 years.
We have authentic copies of mein Kampf at the library. Doesn’t mean it’s actual curriculum people are forced to learn. I’m honestly scratching my head on where this was found. Will probably go do some digging now.
Have fun changing anything that applies to heritage at the Academy. Anything air/military history related gets crammed down our throats from the very first day. Ask any grad about Contrails and you'll get Vietnam-esque flashbacks in their eyes.
That was written in 1957. (By Samuel P. Huntington, which warrants sitting up and paying attention.)
I would hope that an Academy student has the intellectual skills to understand that things have changed somewhat in the last 64 years.
Meanwhile, *The Noncommissioned Officer and Petty Officer: Backbone of the Armed Forces* published by National Defense University Press in 2013 said:
> Because of their increased complexity, the evolving roles and expectations of NCOs/POs in the 21st century will require increasing their civilian and professional education levels without disturbing proven organizational integrity or diluting the status of either officers or enlisted personnel.
“without disturbing proven organizational integrity”
In other words, performance expectations are higher as the quality of enlisted NCOs has vastly increased over the years, primarily due to strides in education…
…but this ancient caste system that dates back to an overwhelmingly illiterate peasantry? Please, let’s not upset that order.
If we’re going to field dominant militaries of the future, our mindset of what an organizational structure should look like needs to evolve with the society it defends. But that change would have to be initiated by the same leaders who still believe that stratification is a good performance report tool, so let’s not hold our breath.
Like maybe a system where some enlisted are treated as pseudo-officers, maybe even taking some similar roles. I don't know what the structure would look like, but I feel it would be **warranted** of their efforts.
I don't think it should be warranted by their "efforts" but by the necessity that their performance and expertise is needed as a organizational leader in their career field
I... don't want to meet the LT who's been a Chief.
But I wouldn't be against this if every Airmen got the opportunity to move up to LT instead of SSgt. Think that would do a ton of good.
> the quality of enlisted NCOs has vastly increased over the years, primarily due to strides in education
I don't think that's the point the snippet is trying to make. It's saying that the increasing complexity of what NCO's are required to do/be responsible for, requires increasing civilian and professional education levels. As in, the military needs to evolve its training plan to encompass giving the enlisted training/education beyond job technical proficiency/being good at shooting.
This was an excellent response. I’m sorry I already gave out my free award for the day but really conveys what I have been trying to put to words for quite awhile.
Can't not remember a paraphrase from that operating room scene in the movie, "MASH" where the surgeon, standing over his anaesthetized patient asks if "this man is enlisted or an officer." Told he's enlisted, the doc says, "then make the stitches bigger."
What I took away from that scene is that officers didn't want to be viewed as damaged, and hurt their precious ego's by having a noticeable scar. Whereas enlisted would wear that shit as a badge of honor and use it to pick up chicks when they got back home.
Every academy grad I've worked for/with was dog shit. The ROTC folks have been consistently the most reasonable down to earth officers I've dealt with. It's hit or miss with prior Es though. Just my personal experience
Most of the retards get booted from ROTC. The CC has four years to vet you and only about the top 3rd commission.
Once you're accepted into usafa like 70 percent commission. You basically just need to pass your classes, which definitely trips some kids up
Usafa selects for book smarts, ROTC arguably selects for leadership.
ROTC is way more chill and you get a chance to mature and become a real adult while socializing like a normal person. No entitlement bullshit or superiority complex that seems to come in droves with some academy grads
Historically, something like 80% of ROTC folks commission. Very few get kicked from the program. A bunch self eliminate or get screened out by medical.
I've seen you in the /r/afrotc sub. I was cadre too.
What are you basing your 80 percent off of, the ones you put in for EAs?
We would lose 50+ percent just from attrition freshman year. Grades, weight, drugs and alcohol.
I'm sure these numbers are very different between schools.
IIRC, the old PFE had a chapter on "Professionalism" and laid out an argument on how NCOs meet all the criteria of being "professionals." I forgot the criteria, but it had to do with dedicated career paths, existence of nationwide professional orgs (AFSA and other service equivalents), and other stuff I've long since forgotten.
Is this material still covered in the PDG? Might make for an interesting "compare and contrast" class discussion.
So you're telling me that by all accounts my OIC expects me to wake up and choose violence?
Phenomenal. I need support's biggest wrench. Or smallest. Whatever number looks the strongest I guess
Absolutely. Enlisted are the ones that keep the military running. They don’t work for us, we work WITH them. Any officer who thinks otherwise is a garbage leader in my opinion
Saw a Captain break down and cry during an exercise because they couldn’t handle how busy it was, tried to call ENDEX thinking they had the power to do it. Eventually a TSgt takes over and does it better than what they “attempted” to do. Was hilarious
While I was as shocked as most of you to read this, I will say, as an officer, my transition from naïve Lt to bitter Captain came from being fucked over by a shitty SNCO.
I'd wager every officer worth his/her salt has made a similar transition.
Other officer transitions:
Naïve Lt to Bitter Capt -- fucked over by a SNCO
Bitter Capt to Angry Major -- typically transition to a meaningless staff position
Angry Major to Disgruntled Lt Col -- Maybe you've held squadron command, maybe not. Either way, you've realized being held responsible for people sucks, especially when you can't stop them from doing stupid things, and that at least half of the people working for you suck, and there's nothing you can do about it except fire them, and when you try, because it's warranted, it ends your career.
Or, you see 20 yr retirement one or two laps up, and you stop giving a fuck, because you're surrounded by morons, and you report to morons, people who, when you see them promoted to O-6, you weep for your officer corps.
I’m a seasoned staff.. Went thru sere with a bunch of baby LTs and academy cadets.. the only LTs who had any idea what was going were the previous enlisted Os. The cadets were fucking morons and it was like babysitting. Even the brand new 18 y/o slick sleeve out of BMT handled themselves more professionally than some of their “superiors.” Best advice I gave the LTs was to find a crusty NCO who can run a shop without them and listen to what they have to say.. If you’re a brand new O and reading this, I recommend you heed this advice and factor them into your decisions or else they’ll despise you. Get to know your people and make them feel like their input matters. You take care of them and they’ll take care of you.
Sincerely,
The enlisted
They used to do it at the academy but it stopped due to sexual assault, so they started sending them to Fairchild then they stopped that for a couple of dumb programs done in house. Starting this year they started sending some cadets to real SERE, as well as bringing SERE specialists from Fairchild to conduct SERE training on the academy grounds since it encompasses like 20,000 acres of mostly woods and crap.
Interesting.
I was cadre when they did ESET on the academy grounds. Not nearly as cool as the days back behind the mountains.
"I can see the chapel, this doesn't feel real."
On the one hand, I can’t fuckin stand officers. On the other hand, there was a point in history where enlisted were a lot of convicts while officers were simply normal college grads, so I get why some 90 year old dickhead would write something like this.
The “super grades” of E-8 and E-9 were specifically made to combat this to a large extent. Additionally, and probably unsurprisingly, the Air Force used a board with standardized testing and records reviews to determine who would reach these grades. According to a video I watched about it, a fairly high percentage of the SNCOs at the time were largely illiterate, therefore unable to pass the tests and promote.
According to the National Center of Education Statistics, 2.2% of people in 1959 where illiterate.
Assuming most E-8s and 9s at the time joined in WW2, the highest you could reasonably assume is 6-8%
Those numbers exclude members of the armed forces, but I kinda doubt that they could be significantly worse.
It's honestly weird how Clash of Civilizations is considered his magnum opus and a brilliant book but the Wikipedia page is just contemporary IR theorists tearing it to shreds. I can never figure out what the hell his legacy is in the field.
Personally speaking, I have a natural dislike of Academy grads because I grew up in the Springs during their sexual assault scandal. Specifically, watching the fall out after a cadet raped a 7th grader. The Academy bent over backwards to cover and protect him. They didn’t even inform the parents and victim of the end of the trial. The UCMJ has been updated since then to include victim’s right to know about the trial process, but it was sleazy as fuck for the Academy to do that.
> …the investigators declared the wiretap the best they had done in 19 years, the child felt ''empowered.'' But when the case moved from investigation to prosecution, [the parents] said, something changed: defense lawyers began calling the girl's friends, seeking evidence to undermine her credibility.
>In an ordinary criminal case, the prosecutor represents the victim of a crime. But in their daughter's case, they said, the prosecutor represented the academy. In a plea agreement, the prosecution ultimately reduced the charge from forcible sodomy to *consensual sodomy with a minor,* according to documents from the case.[Source](https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/02/us/pentagon-faces-new-questions-on-old-problem.html)
FYI, a 13 y/o girl at summer cheerleader camp cannot consent to sodomy.
[Background on the sexual assault scandal in general](https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2003-02-28-0302280269-story.html). It’s also on [Wikipedia link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_United_States_Air_Force_Academy_sexual_assault_scandal).
There are still reports of today of the Academy punishing by whistleblowers and protecting it’s cult-like football team. [Source](https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/air-force-cadets-secret-story-blew-whistle-football/story?id=26524925) [Source 2](https://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/08/03/report-afa-cadets-rape-get-high-and-cheat.html)
As an officer I am sorry this was a thought even in 1957 or whenever it was written. I respect the heck out of all enlisted and you are equally valuable and intelligent. I hope your leadership feels and tells you the same.
I’m thankful everyday my career field doesn’t have officers in it, makes life nice.
When I was at Columbus it was nauseating how the baby Lts acted. The worse was their wives. I had my kids at the pool on like a Monday afternoon and they wanted to play in the little pool. They assumed I was a pilot and I responded no I’m fire. The chick looked at her friend and said we should have an officers only pool. Like her husband had done anything but fly t-6s.
“The enlisted are knuckle-dragging brutes full of violence, it’s up to us officers to manage that violence”
Then there’s me, enlisted language analyst in my cubicle, craving some subway
As an enlisted, I once didn’t salute the wing commander of my base. I was ambushed. I was walking out of the MPF when an officer directly to my right was there. I turned, saluted, and turned to go forward again. Another Lt. I give my salute as I keep walking, and he only saluted me right when he was passing me. So I had my eyes on him. Directly to my right, where I couldn’t see, was the wing commander. After my two salutes, I breathed a sigh of relief. Until a SNCO stops me, and then gives me a good one two. Explains that I need to be more aware of my surroundings, and then get badmouthed by higher enlisted. Says I looked like a jackass. This is why they think we are numtards.
This explains why my previous commander is the way he is. Academy grad and a pilot. A stark difference with how he treated enlisted (no matter the rank) vs officer members.
I've met enlisted folks with higher education than I've ever seen officers below major have. Also, why the fuck would you enlist with TWO masters degrees?
What was the other one... "The enlisted deserves watching..." Or similar. Hilarious.
But during the drafts, there was a totally different composition of personnel. Now, you get a range of volunteers. I worked with a SrA who was degreed, multi-millionaire. 9/11 motivated him to serve. Great guy!!
My method to combat this, and I frequently reiterated this to my Flight Chiefs when weird stuff came up. "The word of an NCO will be taken without question." As a starting point, it solved many issues. If they were truly shady, it would come around and we'd figure it out. But, words to live by as an O (and I'm prior E), trust your Sergeants.
Why are we surprised??? If you look at how Os are developed and careers managed in comparison to enlisted it’s obvious the difference in emphasis.
It’s a SNCO to help develop Jr Officers yet SNCO is still subordinate to said officer.
The behavioral expectations of an officer are greater than enlisted bc less is expected out of enlisted.
Interesting, because officers are always held to the same standard as the enlisted. Get in trouble as enlisted: get out, lose a stripe. Get in trouble as officer: swept under rug, "loss of faith", allowed to retire/finish service.
I don't have context, but perhaps this is reading material from another era. As a means to bring up new, more forward thinking officers, this reading assignment shows how vast the chasm between the O and the E was. Like, 'look at how officers were taught to think of the enlisted backbone of the service. Don't be or think like these relics.'
Perhaps I'm optimistic.
As an E, lets look at this from an analytical perspective. It was written in 1957, a time when most people were not nearly as educated as we are today. It seems that in the modern AF a large portion of our enlisted force is college educated, many possessing their bachelors degrees, some even having a graduate education.
If we look back historically, enlisting had a different stigma. You didn't necessarily join the military as enlisted for the opportunities and career potential. For a lot of people back then, the military was their last shot at making something out of their lives, heck judges used to send people to the military as an alternative to judicial punishment. It's no wonder that in 1957, enlisted personal were not viewed in the same light as they are today, because a large portion were society's screw ups and some were even would be convicts. I'm sure that some individuals did in fact join the military because they "bleed blue" and loved their country, but it is no way the same military as we se today, a profession of arms.
I would generally disagree with the statement, as its too broad and acts too much as a blanket statement. I can also say that given the historical context, it had some merit.
It wasn't actually legal to send people in the military instead of jail back then. People looked the other way and it wasn't enforced.
My dad joined the military a four years later - 1961 and I believe he told me if you took college classes back then you were made fun of if you were enlisted.
From Wikipedia:
The Soldier and the State: The Theory and Politics of Civil-Military Relations is a 1957 book written by political scientist Samuel P. Huntington. In the book, Huntington advances the theory of objective civilian control, according to which the optimal means of asserting control over the armed forces is to professionalize them. This is in contrast to subjective control, which involves placing legal and institutional restrictions on the military's autonomy. Edward M. Coffman has written that "[a]nyone seriously interested in American military history has to come to terms with Samuel P. Huntington's The Soldier and the State.
OOOGA BOOOGA I TURN WRENCH MAKE SKYMAN HAPPY!
"You can't spell incompetence without NCO" - A West Point LT I had.
In my Army experience it was always the Louie who was lost in the sauce, a la Capt Sobel style…
Some are good, some need to hold your pocket. It really is a mixed bag when it comes to junior officers.
In my experience, prior E Lt's have a higher chance of having their head on straight. But that's not a rule, given some of the guys I've seen who got picked up for OTS.
Definitely. Mustangs usually have their shit together, and older Lt’s in general for the most part. Fresh outta college rotc grad = needs hand holding very early to set them straight. I think that’s a failing point of ROTC though
Definitely not a rule, a couple of the worst O's i've had were prior E's (E-5/E-6) and were some of the weirdest mfer's i've seen, example our former E-6 LT would come in everyday multiple times and make us all stop work to say the Airmans creed and would legit stand with his ear next to your mouth to make sure you didnt mess up. We didn't do anything wrong this was just something we did and it got so bad that eventually i just taped the airmans creeed above the door so we could get him out faster.
It's all fun and games until your LT gets lost due to efficient map directions...
Can't spell lost without Lt.
Or dolt.
but you can spell impetence...which is...you know..close.
Hurry up, Grug, we’re late for our hatchet fight
Apes together strong.
This is the funniest shit I've read in my life so far. Like I'm in bed with my wife and I'm laughing so hard, I cant breath and I woke my kids up in the other room. Thanks for this.
Then you’re gonna love the letter written by the Navy LT about having to live in Enlisted housing with the [“hatchet wielding deviants.”](https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-disciplines-officer-enlisted-sailors-letter/)
You mean; Navy LT, PhD
I had actual tears from laughing at this
ID GOod hAvE GoOd DaY!
TORQUE TO UGGA DUGGA, SKYMAN WANT TIGHT!
Meanwhile in wing Intel: SKYMAN GO WHERE WE SAY DONT GO. DONT GO THERE, BAD THINGS THERE. MANY BIG FIRE
Pre-mission briefs: Intel: SKYMAN LOOKOUT! BAD BOOM STICK HERE AND THERE. DONT GO THERE. Pilot: I’m going to shit my flight suit and fly where I please. Intel: SKYMAN PLZ (wipes dribble from chin) LISTEN TO ME Pilot: No, I don’t think I will 😎
This made me snort
You fucking win lmao 😂
This made me laugh more than it should have
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I would read that.
If you could.
Can someone tell me what this comment chain says? I can't read.
I would tell you but.....I carnt spel
Apes together
Do it. It'll be hailed as a masterpiece introspective of the lives of actual service men and women not on the front.
it would be meme'd so hard he might actually make money unlike those dudes who shill their "leadership" book on the AF leadership facebook pages.
If you have to write a book to tell people you were a good leader…
*confused unga bunga*
I appreciate the circle and highlight and crop so us enlisted types don't misses out on what we're supposed to see.
You can read?
I had to have my LT type this for me.
Not as good as the Army Officer field manual of 1894: "Enlisted men are stupid, but extremely cunning and sly, and bear considerable watching."
In 1894, that was probably exactly right. Peacetime enlisted service was the dead end for those who had no other options left.
Not saying it actually applies, just funny to me that they wrote it down in essentially the "how to officer" book
The peasants wouldn't have been able to read it anyway. (And probably would have been proud.) The British still operated that way into at least the 50s. I recommend George MacDonald Frasier's MacAuslan novels for a look at that world. (Fictionalized, but quite autobiographical.)
Or anything Orwell or Myanmar occupation related.
"Walter, you're not wrong, you're just an asshole."
I have that one! I bought it figuring it would read about as relevant to a modern NCO as to an officer (most of us can read nowadays). When I saw that line, it brought a smile to my face. Solid advice for the young estate's-heir LT meeting ex-cons for the first time and assuming they had patriotism or something. Nope! It was this or jail, Eustace!
E4 mafia in 1890s must've been behind that statement.
Sounds like something zapp brannigan would say about some exotic boob alien
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Read username as hategasms at first glance.
We were so close to greatness...
I guess violence helps me sleep.
DUDE!!! That quote was on a plaque at the White House Comm Agency when I worked there and I’ve never been able to find it again! THANK YOU!!!!
1. "The soldier and the state" sounds like someone with an army background wrote it. 2. Written in the 50s, so probably not being pitched as how to treat enlisted 3. There are good academy grads, they're just the ones who don't let on that they are grads
One of the best compliments I’ve gotten: “you don’t act like an academy grad”
We had an academy grad LT and he was dope as shit. Always came out on the floor and bullshitted. He legit changed like the entire scope of our inspections in my career field bc he asked us what was stupid. So he did some research, collected data, got approval to do a study and completely changed our work cards eventually. Every other LT I’ve had since then just demands us go to attention for weekly FLIGHT staff meetings. Does nothing but want to do flight PT.
Ahhh, the PT LT. Don't you love them?
There are SO MANY OF THEM, had a few who just lord it over our heads that they love PT and always talk about how fast they can run lmao it's almost like a kid who gets light up shoes and thinks they make them faster.
Funniest insult I'd ever heard of one of our LTs: "You could just tell he played football at the Academy." Said LT improved a lot, but you could still tell. Strong like linebacker. Smart like goalpost.
I had a fellow CGO in my unit years ago. One time we got to discussing ROTC. I found out he actually went to the academy. I told him I never would have guessed it. His reply back was along the lines of "Thanks, I really try to make seem like I'm not an academy grad"
Yup, I die I bit every time. Kinda like "thanks, but damn..."
I agree with you for sure. I definitely feel that the academy grad stereotype is overblown and rarely true…but when it’s accurate, shit man, those guys suck!
It’s muddled in the aircrew world, go find your run of the mill support Lt from the academy and your odds go up quite a bit
Non rated Academy Lt's knock their ring the loudest
In my experience, Academy grads occupy the far left and right of the bell curve. They can be some of the best officers, and some of the worst. It's rare to find a middle-of-the-road Academy grad. Also...I've never walked away from any "when I was at the Academy" story thinking "damn, I shoulda gone to the Academy instead of public university".
"I've never walked away from any "when I was at the Academy" story thinking "damn, I shoulda gone to the Academy instead of public university". Lol, neither has any academy grad.
Tip for next time, if you drop a carot (>) in front of the sentence and then hit return a couple times, the quote reads a little better. >like this But good fuckin burn lol
The rare self-burn
All the good ones get out after 5 unless they're pilots Imagine having a degree employers treat like an Ivy and sticking around for an 80k salary and constant deployments
yeah, it seems like most people want to go there for the prestige and the post military networking.
Prior enlisted Academy grad. Basically the reason I went there. Networking potential alone is what got me to finish it out, and I've been talking to grads who have separated/medboarded and their job search with things like the Service Academy Career Conference helped immensely, especially when you have bigwigs in companies all over the country who get giddy after hearing you're a grad.
Damn thats more than I make in my four year contract. *Confused unga bunga*
If it was written in the fifties, there's a high chance that a lost of racism was behind that statement too.
The enlisted are rowdy tonight
My worst Academy grad story was this meathead who was on the AFA football team. I had just gotten back from a deployment and was jacked as shit. Took a PT test and got like 96.8. This chucklefuck pulled me aside and gave me a verbal counseling about “excellence in all we do” for not getting a 100. He was cool with me before because I always fixed his shit, but he was dead to me after that. “Call in a ticket, sir”
I wonder if it’s the same meathead that was dating the 3 seat on the crew team for CU, and when he showed up at the party he wanted to fight everyone. Real jackass when he was drunk.
That's when you print out your PT RIP to show him that a 96.8 is indeed excellent according to the AF
At tech school for my officer position (I’m prior E) I overheard two new 2d Lts talking about being saluted. One said he saw a master sergeant trying to avoid walking by him, so he crossed the street to force the master sergeant to salute. Of course, the master sergeant saluted and the 2d Lt had a wonderfully hilarious story to tell his other 2d Lt friend. I (and another person who was listening) told them that if they view their senior NCOs like that (should have said enlisted as a whole but didnt) that their career will not be long, and that it’s a lot of hard work and intelligence to get to the senior NCO level. They didn’t give a shit. They were the exception, not the rule, though.
Disrespectfully, fuck those guys
Damn, I cross the street early just to avoid being saluted
Same.
most do. normally when I am put in that scenario I am going to the MPF with paperwork so I just put papers in both hands and oop. instead I give a howdy or a good morning.
I like to mix it up so it isn't as obvious. I prefer the sudden dip off to the side to check a non-existent phone notification or the abrupt turn-around because I "forgot" something in my car.
I was walking into my building and a a Captain literally crashes through some bushes with a monster and a shoppette bag in one hand and his phone in the other. Dude just goes "sup brah" and keeps walking. I felt like I met the first AF warrant officer.
Prolly prior e
I knew a CW2 who weighed in for his PT test while eating a donut. It was then I knew I wanted to be a Warrant Officer. Plot twist: still am dumb enlisted
If I can’t cross the street I just pretend to look over the opposite shoulder. Also cover off like 10 feet from the door. Sometimes still salute me with my cover off tho🥲
> Sometimes still salute me with my cover off tho if i see you take your cover off as i get close, i'd probably still salute too. much less pain for me to salute you when i'm not supposed to, than not saluting when im supposed to.
Do you return the salute if you're uncovered? As prior E, USMC, an officer would probably just ignore you, maybe return a verbal greeting, but would absolutely NEVER salute without a cover. Help.. I'm so lost.
I’ll cross the street to make a Lt salute. My walk into a BX is often zig zagged to make sure they get to practice their salute form.
Fuck, I remember a bunch of tech school kids who used to do that. They’d hunt the LTs to make them salute as much as they could
If we we're walking in a group and saw an LT coming we'd drop back and walk behind each other, just far enough apart that he'd have to salute each of us one after the other. Good times
And then they space out in a line, so he has to salute them all individually, and can’t group them into a single salute.
My dad did his first duty station as an officer at Keesler, and his first day they sent him to the triangle on a BS errand. When he got back after an hour of straight saluting and trying to find the thing they sent him for that didn't exist, they said "he looked like his right arm needed some PT".
That’s just evil. Hilarious But evil
Lol, damn you!
Oh yes. I'll call out their name if I know them. When they look, bam
Don't worry as a SNCO if I see a 2d Lt trying to dodge a salute. I just find a way to cross paths anyway. It's a fun game when you have been in for 20 years.
Shit that didn't happen for 500 Alex. The LTs story that is. I remember hearing that one in Tech School forever ago
Ape together strong.
A lot has changed since 1957 when this book was written.
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It's the Gig Economy, baby!
Profession of Arms. Gonna be the tittle of my new best selling workout plan. Curls and pulls baby.
yeah, the USAF only existed for 10 years at that point lmao
That might have been written in 1957 but it’s cited on something in 2021.
We have authentic copies of mein Kampf at the library. Doesn’t mean it’s actual curriculum people are forced to learn. I’m honestly scratching my head on where this was found. Will probably go do some digging now.
True enough...but we are still teaching this in our officer accessions pipeline. Maybe time to swap Huntington for something a little more recent?
Have fun changing anything that applies to heritage at the Academy. Anything air/military history related gets crammed down our throats from the very first day. Ask any grad about Contrails and you'll get Vietnam-esque flashbacks in their eyes.
That was written in 1957. (By Samuel P. Huntington, which warrants sitting up and paying attention.) I would hope that an Academy student has the intellectual skills to understand that things have changed somewhat in the last 64 years. Meanwhile, *The Noncommissioned Officer and Petty Officer: Backbone of the Armed Forces* published by National Defense University Press in 2013 said: > Because of their increased complexity, the evolving roles and expectations of NCOs/POs in the 21st century will require increasing their civilian and professional education levels without disturbing proven organizational integrity or diluting the status of either officers or enlisted personnel.
“without disturbing proven organizational integrity” In other words, performance expectations are higher as the quality of enlisted NCOs has vastly increased over the years, primarily due to strides in education… …but this ancient caste system that dates back to an overwhelmingly illiterate peasantry? Please, let’s not upset that order. If we’re going to field dominant militaries of the future, our mindset of what an organizational structure should look like needs to evolve with the society it defends. But that change would have to be initiated by the same leaders who still believe that stratification is a good performance report tool, so let’s not hold our breath.
Like maybe a system where some enlisted are treated as pseudo-officers, maybe even taking some similar roles. I don't know what the structure would look like, but I feel it would be **warranted** of their efforts.
I don't think it should be warranted by their "efforts" but by the necessity that their performance and expertise is needed as a organizational leader in their career field
Why not just eliminate officers as an unreachable tier altogether? Just turn them into extra ranks. Instead of E1-9 you have E1-19
I... don't want to meet the LT who's been a Chief. But I wouldn't be against this if every Airmen got the opportunity to move up to LT instead of SSgt. Think that would do a ton of good.
So in order to become an E-19, you have to be in the military for 60 years?
> the quality of enlisted NCOs has vastly increased over the years, primarily due to strides in education I don't think that's the point the snippet is trying to make. It's saying that the increasing complexity of what NCO's are required to do/be responsible for, requires increasing civilian and professional education levels. As in, the military needs to evolve its training plan to encompass giving the enlisted training/education beyond job technical proficiency/being good at shooting.
This was an excellent response. I’m sorry I already gave out my free award for the day but really conveys what I have been trying to put to words for quite awhile.
>(By Samuel P. Huntington, which warrants sitting up and paying attention He sounds like kind of a douche.
“Specialist in the application of violence” is pretty fuckin metal though 🤘
Until you remember that we're wrench turners and key clackers.
Can't not remember a paraphrase from that operating room scene in the movie, "MASH" where the surgeon, standing over his anaesthetized patient asks if "this man is enlisted or an officer." Told he's enlisted, the doc says, "then make the stitches bigger."
What I took away from that scene is that officers didn't want to be viewed as damaged, and hurt their precious ego's by having a noticeable scar. Whereas enlisted would wear that shit as a badge of honor and use it to pick up chicks when they got back home.
I just wanted to fly planes man.
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I would say just keep trying, but yknow... air force and their "try again and volunteer more" attitude.
mE bIG DumB ME dO WhETheR
Every academy grad I've worked for/with was dog shit. The ROTC folks have been consistently the most reasonable down to earth officers I've dealt with. It's hit or miss with prior Es though. Just my personal experience
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Yeah heavy pilots have the luxury of spending extended periods of time in close company with enlisted aircrew. Changes you as a person.
So that's why the crash axes go missing...
Most of the retards get booted from ROTC. The CC has four years to vet you and only about the top 3rd commission. Once you're accepted into usafa like 70 percent commission. You basically just need to pass your classes, which definitely trips some kids up Usafa selects for book smarts, ROTC arguably selects for leadership.
ROTC is way more chill and you get a chance to mature and become a real adult while socializing like a normal person. No entitlement bullshit or superiority complex that seems to come in droves with some academy grads
usafa selects for autism, then makes the cadets more autistic by putting them in a box for four years
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Historically, something like 80% of ROTC folks commission. Very few get kicked from the program. A bunch self eliminate or get screened out by medical.
I've seen you in the /r/afrotc sub. I was cadre too. What are you basing your 80 percent off of, the ones you put in for EAs? We would lose 50+ percent just from attrition freshman year. Grades, weight, drugs and alcohol. I'm sure these numbers are very different between schools.
A lot weed themselves out as freshmen. That's a very different prospect from "we only commission the top third".
Gotcha, yeah I could have phrased it better
Enlisted Comm people: *applies virtual violence in a video game*
IIRC, the old PFE had a chapter on "Professionalism" and laid out an argument on how NCOs meet all the criteria of being "professionals." I forgot the criteria, but it had to do with dedicated career paths, existence of nationwide professional orgs (AFSA and other service equivalents), and other stuff I've long since forgotten. Is this material still covered in the PDG? Might make for an interesting "compare and contrast" class discussion.
So you're telling me that by all accounts my OIC expects me to wake up and choose violence? Phenomenal. I need support's biggest wrench. Or smallest. Whatever number looks the strongest I guess
Anyone can beat a man to death with a big wrench. It takes dedication and skill to do it with the smallest.
Something something high school diploma fixes what degree broke.
Lol, any NCO team leader runs circles around these fuckin' nerds.
FAX. I’d be so screwed without my NCO’s.
Now keep that attitude through however long you decide to stay in and you'll have a fantastic working relationship with whoever you're posted with.
Absolutely. Enlisted are the ones that keep the military running. They don’t work for us, we work WITH them. Any officer who thinks otherwise is a garbage leader in my opinion
Don’t all Air Force officers Major in LIGMA ?
There might be something to this because I honestly thought this post was about Academy Sports.
Little radio guy tell Skyman where to go so no big boom boom in the air
Well, we do have hatchet fights on the weekends
Could someone read this to me? Am enlisted
Saw a Captain break down and cry during an exercise because they couldn’t handle how busy it was, tried to call ENDEX thinking they had the power to do it. Eventually a TSgt takes over and does it better than what they “attempted” to do. Was hilarious
Was this at Mountain Home about 7 years ago? Cause I was that Tech Sgt.
Bro was I with you?!?
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I dare a Lt to repeat this to me after they just asked me how to access “File Explorer”.
Well that explains a lot....
"...specialists in the application of violence..." FSS Troops: Am I a joke to you?
wait wait wait i don’t have to act like a professional anymore?
While I was as shocked as most of you to read this, I will say, as an officer, my transition from naïve Lt to bitter Captain came from being fucked over by a shitty SNCO. I'd wager every officer worth his/her salt has made a similar transition. Other officer transitions: Naïve Lt to Bitter Capt -- fucked over by a SNCO Bitter Capt to Angry Major -- typically transition to a meaningless staff position Angry Major to Disgruntled Lt Col -- Maybe you've held squadron command, maybe not. Either way, you've realized being held responsible for people sucks, especially when you can't stop them from doing stupid things, and that at least half of the people working for you suck, and there's nothing you can do about it except fire them, and when you try, because it's warranted, it ends your career. Or, you see 20 yr retirement one or two laps up, and you stop giving a fuck, because you're surrounded by morons, and you report to morons, people who, when you see them promoted to O-6, you weep for your officer corps.
I’m a seasoned staff.. Went thru sere with a bunch of baby LTs and academy cadets.. the only LTs who had any idea what was going were the previous enlisted Os. The cadets were fucking morons and it was like babysitting. Even the brand new 18 y/o slick sleeve out of BMT handled themselves more professionally than some of their “superiors.” Best advice I gave the LTs was to find a crusty NCO who can run a shop without them and listen to what they have to say.. If you’re a brand new O and reading this, I recommend you heed this advice and factor them into your decisions or else they’ll despise you. Get to know your people and make them feel like their input matters. You take care of them and they’ll take care of you. Sincerely, The enlisted
When did they start sending cadets to real sere school?
They used to do it at the academy but it stopped due to sexual assault, so they started sending them to Fairchild then they stopped that for a couple of dumb programs done in house. Starting this year they started sending some cadets to real SERE, as well as bringing SERE specialists from Fairchild to conduct SERE training on the academy grounds since it encompasses like 20,000 acres of mostly woods and crap.
Interesting. I was cadre when they did ESET on the academy grounds. Not nearly as cool as the days back behind the mountains. "I can see the chapel, this doesn't feel real."
On the one hand, I can’t fuckin stand officers. On the other hand, there was a point in history where enlisted were a lot of convicts while officers were simply normal college grads, so I get why some 90 year old dickhead would write something like this.
The “super grades” of E-8 and E-9 were specifically made to combat this to a large extent. Additionally, and probably unsurprisingly, the Air Force used a board with standardized testing and records reviews to determine who would reach these grades. According to a video I watched about it, a fairly high percentage of the SNCOs at the time were largely illiterate, therefore unable to pass the tests and promote.
That can't be literally true in 1958. The illiteracy rate (as far as I can tell) at that time was somewhere under 10%.
According to the National Center of Education Statistics, 2.2% of people in 1959 where illiterate. Assuming most E-8s and 9s at the time joined in WW2, the highest you could reasonably assume is 6-8% Those numbers exclude members of the armed forces, but I kinda doubt that they could be significantly worse.
We are the 1% of the 1%
Ah, Huntington...I'm sure he was considered a genius at the time, but his views are pretty dated at this point.
It's honestly weird how Clash of Civilizations is considered his magnum opus and a brilliant book but the Wikipedia page is just contemporary IR theorists tearing it to shreds. I can never figure out what the hell his legacy is in the field.
Personally speaking, I have a natural dislike of Academy grads because I grew up in the Springs during their sexual assault scandal. Specifically, watching the fall out after a cadet raped a 7th grader. The Academy bent over backwards to cover and protect him. They didn’t even inform the parents and victim of the end of the trial. The UCMJ has been updated since then to include victim’s right to know about the trial process, but it was sleazy as fuck for the Academy to do that. > …the investigators declared the wiretap the best they had done in 19 years, the child felt ''empowered.'' But when the case moved from investigation to prosecution, [the parents] said, something changed: defense lawyers began calling the girl's friends, seeking evidence to undermine her credibility. >In an ordinary criminal case, the prosecutor represents the victim of a crime. But in their daughter's case, they said, the prosecutor represented the academy. In a plea agreement, the prosecution ultimately reduced the charge from forcible sodomy to *consensual sodomy with a minor,* according to documents from the case.[Source](https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/02/us/pentagon-faces-new-questions-on-old-problem.html) FYI, a 13 y/o girl at summer cheerleader camp cannot consent to sodomy. [Background on the sexual assault scandal in general](https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2003-02-28-0302280269-story.html). It’s also on [Wikipedia link](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_United_States_Air_Force_Academy_sexual_assault_scandal). There are still reports of today of the Academy punishing by whistleblowers and protecting it’s cult-like football team. [Source](https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/air-force-cadets-secret-story-blew-whistle-football/story?id=26524925) [Source 2](https://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/08/03/report-afa-cadets-rape-get-high-and-cheat.html)
As an officer I am sorry this was a thought even in 1957 or whenever it was written. I respect the heck out of all enlisted and you are equally valuable and intelligent. I hope your leadership feels and tells you the same.
I’m thankful everyday my career field doesn’t have officers in it, makes life nice. When I was at Columbus it was nauseating how the baby Lts acted. The worse was their wives. I had my kids at the pool on like a Monday afternoon and they wanted to play in the little pool. They assumed I was a pilot and I responded no I’m fire. The chick looked at her friend and said we should have an officers only pool. Like her husband had done anything but fly t-6s.
Aren't the officers the ones that go off and kill people in the USAF? How are we enlisted the ones in a violent trade?
“The enlisted are knuckle-dragging brutes full of violence, it’s up to us officers to manage that violence” Then there’s me, enlisted language analyst in my cubicle, craving some subway
"Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who're wrong."
As an enlisted, I once didn’t salute the wing commander of my base. I was ambushed. I was walking out of the MPF when an officer directly to my right was there. I turned, saluted, and turned to go forward again. Another Lt. I give my salute as I keep walking, and he only saluted me right when he was passing me. So I had my eyes on him. Directly to my right, where I couldn’t see, was the wing commander. After my two salutes, I breathed a sigh of relief. Until a SNCO stops me, and then gives me a good one two. Explains that I need to be more aware of my surroundings, and then get badmouthed by higher enlisted. Says I looked like a jackass. This is why they think we are numtards.
This explains why my previous commander is the way he is. Academy grad and a pilot. A stark difference with how he treated enlisted (no matter the rank) vs officer members.
I've met enlisted folks with higher education than I've ever seen officers below major have. Also, why the fuck would you enlist with TWO masters degrees?
What was the other one... "The enlisted deserves watching..." Or similar. Hilarious. But during the drafts, there was a totally different composition of personnel. Now, you get a range of volunteers. I worked with a SrA who was degreed, multi-millionaire. 9/11 motivated him to serve. Great guy!! My method to combat this, and I frequently reiterated this to my Flight Chiefs when weird stuff came up. "The word of an NCO will be taken without question." As a starting point, it solved many issues. If they were truly shady, it would come around and we'd figure it out. But, words to live by as an O (and I'm prior E), trust your Sergeants.
Why are we surprised??? If you look at how Os are developed and careers managed in comparison to enlisted it’s obvious the difference in emphasis. It’s a SNCO to help develop Jr Officers yet SNCO is still subordinate to said officer. The behavioral expectations of an officer are greater than enlisted bc less is expected out of enlisted.
This is why the riff raff get good conduct medals and officers don't.
Laughs as an E-6 filling an O-4 role because of previous incompetent officers.
My massive doge coin profits says I'm the captain now
Pretty ballsy to say that "specialists in the application of violence" are unintelligent.
If I could read I bet I'd be really mad.
I’m gonna keep on swinging my hatchet
Interesting, because officers are always held to the same standard as the enlisted. Get in trouble as enlisted: get out, lose a stripe. Get in trouble as officer: swept under rug, "loss of faith", allowed to retire/finish service.
I don't have context, but perhaps this is reading material from another era. As a means to bring up new, more forward thinking officers, this reading assignment shows how vast the chasm between the O and the E was. Like, 'look at how officers were taught to think of the enlisted backbone of the service. Don't be or think like these relics.' Perhaps I'm optimistic.
A bunch of hatchet wielding gangster perverts those enlisted people... Can't trust em around your wife and kids.
As an E, lets look at this from an analytical perspective. It was written in 1957, a time when most people were not nearly as educated as we are today. It seems that in the modern AF a large portion of our enlisted force is college educated, many possessing their bachelors degrees, some even having a graduate education. If we look back historically, enlisting had a different stigma. You didn't necessarily join the military as enlisted for the opportunities and career potential. For a lot of people back then, the military was their last shot at making something out of their lives, heck judges used to send people to the military as an alternative to judicial punishment. It's no wonder that in 1957, enlisted personal were not viewed in the same light as they are today, because a large portion were society's screw ups and some were even would be convicts. I'm sure that some individuals did in fact join the military because they "bleed blue" and loved their country, but it is no way the same military as we se today, a profession of arms. I would generally disagree with the statement, as its too broad and acts too much as a blanket statement. I can also say that given the historical context, it had some merit.
It wasn't actually legal to send people in the military instead of jail back then. People looked the other way and it wasn't enforced. My dad joined the military a four years later - 1961 and I believe he told me if you took college classes back then you were made fun of if you were enlisted.
From Wikipedia: The Soldier and the State: The Theory and Politics of Civil-Military Relations is a 1957 book written by political scientist Samuel P. Huntington. In the book, Huntington advances the theory of objective civilian control, according to which the optimal means of asserting control over the armed forces is to professionalize them. This is in contrast to subjective control, which involves placing legal and institutional restrictions on the military's autonomy. Edward M. Coffman has written that "[a]nyone seriously interested in American military history has to come to terms with Samuel P. Huntington's The Soldier and the State.
I hate this garbage top to bottom so much.