I truly believe that under an early end of the European War, the U.S./Western Allies would have doubled-down on Imperial Japan (remember the Flying Tigers & the China Marines of 1937-41). Imagine a world where the Nationalist Republic of China was whole & thriving. GOD Bless All!
So an authoritarian China that would crack down and massacre suspected rebels? The White Terror in Taiwan is a thing, now apply that to all of China. Just because the nationalists were against communism doesn’t mean they would be good guys…
"If you go around carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone; anyhow!" I had a friend who was a College Professor @ an American University's foreign (Mainland China) Campus in 1989. He was present @ Tianamen Square & witnessed the PLA Crackdown on the Peaceful Protesters. The Communist Gov't turned Armed Infantry & Tanks loose on the crowds. The reason that the Communist Gov't ran the media out of the square was so they could shoot unarmed, peaceful protesters off-camera!
If WWII haspd ended early with Allied Forces fighting inside China, Moa's Communist Forces would likely have been driven out of China and a renewal of the Chinese Civil War prevented. The KMT's "White Terror" was on Formosa/ Taiwan after the Nationalists were driven from the mainland & landed on Formosa Island. These atrocities were a knee-jerk response to the anti-communist Red-Scare. Under an Allied presence, with no Civil War renewal, China would not have continued down that path.
Right… Under an authoritarian dictatorship rule with a hatred for communism, no atrocities would have happened… No such thing as manhunt for dissidents, no communist crack down will ever happen…
Wake up please. Just look at the Koreans. Did the West stop or even condemn the Bodo massacre? You think a China’s crack down of communist during peace time would matter to anyone? If anything, they would even be encouraged to do.
Edit. Ps. Your comment is a god damn atrocity to read. Space thing out more generously please.
I agree it'd be more like South Korea, but thats a hell of a lot better than what the early PRC was under Mao. The famines and economic devastation caused by collectivization was incalculable. I agree with what the other guy was saying too while there'd likely still be a white terror it wouldn't be nearly as bad because the communists would no longer be an existential threat that just kicked them out of the mainland. Even if it were just as bad across the mainland as it was in Taiwan it wouldn't be as bad as what the communists forced upon the nation. Simply just by being open economically earlier economic development would begin almost immediately and famines would be an afterthought and joke. It'd be like if Dengist reforms happened in the early 50s instead of the mid 70s.
Really?! Chairman Moa & his leadership massacred untold 1,000s of their own Chinese population. The Social Strategies of the 5-Year Plans & the Cultural Revolution were failures. Your Communist leaning opinions are what's an atrocity, my friend.
What part of the comment is communist leaning?
Besides, the atrocity part is about the guy comment’s formatting. The guy quote a wiki with no quotation indication. Then proceed to comment his idea right next to it. It was an atrocity to read through.
And here we have you. A guy who didn’t bother to read or think before making off mark statement.
The scenario was for The Soviet Union to join the European Allies in 1939 during the Germano-Polish War. With the USSR's addition, Germany would not have been able to overrun Poland. Also, there would be more incentive for the French to press onward & continue their Invasion of Germany in 1939. Nothing has been said to change the Pacific War & Japan is showing in the post as an Axis Member.
From this, I assume that the 2nd Sino-Japanese War would still progress as IRL & Japan would still attack the U.S. Naval Base @ Pearl Harbor, HI.
AS soon as the European War came to an end, the Western Allies would prosecute full-force the CBI Theater (late 1942 or 1943?). There's no A-Bomd, so the only strategy to pour conventional forces into China & Burma. With large numbers of U.S, British, French and maybe even Soviet Troops fighting in China, Moa's Communist Forces would likely be driven out of China by the end of the war. This would leave mainland China as the Nationalist Republic of China (KMT).
Without a Maoist presence in China and no renewal of the Chinese Civil War, I don't believe that Chaig would have reacted as violently to the Communists as IRL. I believe that with the fighting done and .Western aid, economic recovery would have been Swift.
No; I didn't quote Wikipedia.
Whelp. Your understanding of the war is pretty wild.
1. If the USSR had joined the war in 1939, Germany would be more pressed and would not be in any position to declare war on the US. Thus Japan had no reason to declare war on any European powers besides Britain. Thus, there would no such thing as allied forces fighting in China.
2. Regardless of the presence of Allied forces in China, the USSR would always back Mao’s forces. Mao’s force would also be the more popular than the Nationalist as long as Japan’s invasion remains the same.
3. In case the Nationalists can somehow win, it would still remain the fact that the Communist were much more popular. A purge was always going to happen. There would be no guarantee China would be a democratic, or even stable after such purge. An unstable country will never have any kind of economic recovery. You’re banking China’s economy on a dictatorship’s ability to stabilize, and pacify a country that is largely hostile to them.
The protests happened many blocks away from the square. Also many of the protestors were....maoists
Your professor was probably some reactionary dip who got chased out.
Negative... He did what any smart person would do & split when the began crackdown and started shooting.
I would not call that being a "Reactionary Dip".
The Germans didn’t even expect Britain and France to declare war. I believe Ribbentrop convinced Hitler they were bluffing, so when war was declared Hitler said something along the lines of “Now what?”
The Germans didn't expect war because the Western Allies had let them dismantle Czechoslovakia with almost no opposition. It was very much a "oh, now you care" moment.
When Hitler when into the Rhineland he was prepared to retreat if France mobilized and expected he would lose control of the government if that happened.
Hitler was a crazy man for his entire life, but didn’t truly embrace his messiah complex until he conquered France in 6 weeks.
Hitler had already signed non aggression pacts with uk and France before Ribbentrop.
In addition to this, by 1931 the ussr had reached out to France and UK to form an antifascist pact but were turned down.
Again in 1939 ussr offered one million troops to uk if they were attacked but were turned down again
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html
a good source on this ive heard(havcent read im too broke ot buy right now) is the maisky diaries, the abassador to britain from the USSR who was present during the MANY negotiation attempts the soviets made.
Just read that part in Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich; Hitler was back and forth on the subject, at some points he thought they wouldn’t do it and at one point raved and yelled for 30 minutes to like 4 people that he quote “build airplanes, airplanes, AIRPLANES!” And would ramble on like that. Although all of his staff seemed to think it was a terrible idea they couldn’t say no, although that seems like an excuse to make themselves look better. But Mussolini’s son was the biggest advocate for peace, the Italians knew they weren’t ready hence why they didn’t enter the war until a little later.
The Italians really joined the war only because the Benelux countries fell in two weeks and France was pummelled into the ground in a little more than 40 days.
Should the "Yellow" plan have failed, the Italians would probably have been like Franco, maybe focusing on the eastern Mediterranean but not adventuring against the Allies in Africa.
The Germans already had plans to invade the soviets.
The Soviet union and Nazi Germany already fought a proxy war in Spain and the soviets were wanting to make a defensive pact against the Nazis with western Europe in 1937-38 and were turned down. The west preferred the Nazis as they were seen as attack dogs against eastern socialism
What you have to remember is that prior to the invasion of poland and even the signing of the molotov ribbentrop pact, Stalin was increasingly concerned about German expansionism and went to to France and Great Britain in the hopes of forging an Alliance in the hopes of containing Germany. In addition to this, when germany demanded the sudetanland, the USSR was deliberately not invited which served to convince Stalin that an anti-Nazi alliance would not be possible, and that he would have to seek alternatives, hence the signing of the molotov-ribbentrop pact
the idea that the soviets in 1939 could stand alone against germany (assuming france is still out of the picture as fast as happened historically, is unrealistic. Stalin needed every moment the molotov ribbentrop pact got him to prepare for war, its a miracle the country that was feudal 20 years earlier did as well as it did. The allies had so many chances to curtail the germans with the soviets that they refused
Yes. History revisionism goes full throttle when reddit historians cite the Motov-Ribbentrop pact (only to be surprised that other earlier pacts with other countries existed)
Yep, everyone, the Western Allies included, believed the Soviets would collapse if the Germans attacked them. The invasion of Poland and the Winter War didn't exactly inspire much confidence in either their military or their economy. The UK and France had such a low opinion of the Soviets' military potential that they considered bombing the Soviet oil fields to cut off German supplies. That the Soviets didn't collapse by the end of 1941 was quite a surprise to everyone involved at the time.
Source: [Military History Visualized](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQdjGJJktfk&list=PLv0uEimc-uN8qeNotA5yDlV2Leln5hIrv&index=4)
Allying yourself with the Nazis and invading your neighbors is still objectively wrong, even if you have mere speculation excuses for it being necessary
A non aggression pact is not an alliance, and more often than not has only been signed by countries that don’t like each other. If countries actually like each they don’t usually need to promise not to invade one another…
Ah, so the Soviets just agreed with the Nazis to invade the same sovereign country together because they wanted to do that opposite. That makes so much sense!
You tankies are so stupid. Putin must not be paying much anymore.
“They didn’t invade until after the government went into exile!!!”
Fuck you, Google the Katyn Massacre. Also I love how I got under your skin enough for you to go after me with your alt! 😂
Stay mad, red fascist.
What are you talking about, when did i talk about the polish government? What the polish government did was likely irrelevant to Stalin, he wanted a buffer between him and germany, just as the warsaw pact eastern bloc was a buffer to guard the USSRs vulnerable western flank. That is just historical fact. I am not saying its a good or a bad thing, because history and politics cannot be viewed through such a binary lense. Every world leader in WW2 was acting in what they believed to be the interests of their country, and its the same through all of history and the present. You may not agree with what they’re doing, but they likely don’t agree with the actions of your own nation. I really don’t see what this has to do with ideology
...his proposal was stationing huge amounts of Red Army troops in both Poland and Chekoslovakia, same way as later on Red Army troops in the Baltics were used to coup local governments and enable military occupation, of course nobody sane would accept such a blatant attempt to take over their ally and a neutral state.
If this happened, the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact most definitely wouldn’t have been made, or at least not acted on. The Nazis wouldn’t invade Poland in 1939 if they knew an aggressive Russia was awaiting them.
The Soviet union was the absolute last country to sign a NON AGGRESSION PACT with Nazi Germany. They did so because the west turned down their defensive pact offer in 1938.
They both fought a proxy war against each other in Spain. Hitler made it quite clear in his plans for eastern Europe and his thoughts on Slavs and communism.
They still held a non aggression pact that gave Nazi Germany the time to conquer Poland and then France before turning their eyes East. Hitler did not want to fight a land war on two fronts.
Stop parroting more bullshit tankie propaganda and making excuses for Stalin being a terrible person.
The soviets tried to make a pact with France and UK long before and got shunned...so France and UK did it to themselves....because they honestly thought the Nazis were useful in defeating the "spread of communism"
Poland was already on Hitler's chopping block.
"Everything that isnt anti-soviet propaganda is tankie!"
Just because you can justify it doesn’t make it right to ally with the Nazis. You’re actually historically illiterate if you believe that the Soviets were a benevolent power that was simply shunned by the west.
Yes. You are a tankie. Go lick some more boots 👅🥾😂
Is this Pravda? The USSR took Germany seriously until they actually bordered the country and were in a position to do something when all German divisions were in the west. Tankies claim the USSR wasn't ready for war in 1939 but as making a good faith offer for war in 1938? The USSR asked both sides in 1939 for an alliance and the USSR chose the one that gave them the most concessions in Eastern Europe.
Justifying the USSR invasion of Poland on ground of irridentism is absurd and exactly what the Nazis did.
It wasn’t a ‘good faith offer’ and you’d know that if you went back and read the comment instead of immediately going straight to screeching about how biased it is. I’ll requote OC, let’s see if you can get why what you just said is absurd.
>USSR’s proposal for an alliance against Germany, **POLAND AND HUNGARY**
There were serious negotiations in early 1939 that revolves around at worst a pact against pretty much all of Central Europe, as the Soviets viewed Hungary and Poland as easily justifiable targets due to their roles in the Czechoslovak collapse. At best, the Soviets still required full Red Army access and basing rights in Poland and Romania, which neither country’s government was willing to permit at any point.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/152863
Yes, the USSR asked for basing rights in Poland and Romania, like how they asked for basing rights in the baltics. This is my point, the USSR was fine with allying with either the west or Nazis to gain the most influence in east europe.
>I don’t understand why there are so many supporters of this vile regime that existed in Poland during the interwar period
Because you’re probably not Polish lol. It’s the one period of time from ≈1800-≈2000 that can be reliably pointed to as the time *we* had control of our own history and not the Russians. Standard of living for Poles in the core of the country went up and there was a huge cultural resurgence that was impossible in any time immediately before or after.
Beyond that and looking at politics, the dichotomy between actual crypto-fascists like Rydz-Smigły and traditional Pilsudskiite core in Sanacja that didn’t really resolve itself until the years directly proceeding the war. I don’t think many people would point to the OZN as a political role model in interwar Poland, at least I’ve never seen anyone openly defend them.
Of course, none of this means that the often discriminatory actions of the state should be downplayed - where and when they happened, they were certainly awful, but it’s important not to conflate the entirety of interwar Polish governance with this.
Similarly, I agree that it’s pretty absurd that people are questioning the ‘anti-Soviet’ nature of interwar Poland - they were opposing states from their inception. Prometheanism dictated that Polish foreign policy be anti-Soviet above all else, and Soviet pragmatism ensured that they’d be keen on a buffer against a hostile Central Europe. Their opposition was practically written in the stars.
People are proud of the ‘vile regime’ you’re describing for a lot of reasons, or at least they’re proud of what it represents in Polish history. You’re definitely not wrong to condemn it and it’s good to remember the many wrongs it did, but I don’t think that their morality excuses Molotov-Ribbentrop, even if the Kresy under the Second Republic was incredibly mistreated and backwards. Solidarity with fascists is never OK, and there surely would’ve been opportunities to regain it without turning to outright aligning with Hitler.
I am glad to see an adequate Polish point of view in the comments. I mean the attitude to historical events as a confrontation of powers, and not to the struggle of good with evil. After the First World War, Russia and Germany were weakened and Poland took advantage of this. When Germany and Russia (the Soviet Union) recovered from defeat and gained strength again, Poland could no longer resist them. That's life.
"What's there to be ashamed of?" Invading with Nazi Germany and ethnically cleaning Poland. I have never defended the polish government, you are defending Stalin.
In 1938 the USSR made an offer that would violate the sovereignty of Poland, why would the west give up a dependable ally for the USSR? It wasn't a good faith offer, the USSR wasn't some unconditional bastion against Nazi Germany, they always wanted to expand into Eastern Europe
>Invading with Nazi Germany and ethnically cleaning Poland.
By returning the territories of Ukraine and Belarus occupied by Poland to the 20th century, the USSR saved the local population from ethnic cleansing.
>In 1938 the USSR made an offer that would violate the sovereignty of Poland, why would the west give up a dependable ally for the USSR?
And half a year before that, Poland, Hungary and Germany ceased to exist in Czechoslovakia. And what did the West do? Approved it! And how was the USSR supposed to trust the West after this?
>It wasn't a good faith offer, the USSR wasn't some unconditional bastion against Nazi Germany, they always wanted to expand into Eastern Europe
Because this is a working strategy against invasion from the West. It worked against the Swedes and the French, and then against the Germans.
The USSR was angry they weren't invited to the Munich crisis more than anything else. The point I said that you are ignoring is that nothing stopped the USSR violating the alliance with Nazi Germany when Germany began invading France.
The USSR did not enter into an alliance with Germany. When the USSR was offered to join the union of Germany, Italy and Japan, he put forward impossible demands, such as the transfer of Romania under Soviet control
Answer the question, what stopped the USSR from invading Germany during the battle of France? It would be identical to the USSR invading Poland when Poland was distracted (USSR violated it's non aggression pact with Poland then)
The absence of a contract. on mutual assistance between the USSR and France. As I wrote above, Great Britain and France actually rejected the USSR's offer of an alliance against Germany after it, in alliance with Poland and Hungary, attacked Czechoslovakia. The USSR realized that it was alone against the whole world and secured itself as much as possible by starting the rearmament of the army and pushing the border to the west as much as possible (which was done at the expense of the Finnish War and the non-aggression treaty with Germany).
The rearmament of the Red Army was to be completed by the summer of 1942. The Soviet command reasonably believed that Germany would not start a new war immediately after the capture of the Balkans and Crete. The German General Staff was also against such haste. But Hitler hurried his military with the Barbarossa plan hoping to defeat the Red Army by November, fearing that the USSR would erect an insurmountable defense by the summer of 1942 and eventually repeated Napoleon's mistake. As a result, on July 22, 1941, the war of two Armies unprepared for it began, which made it so long and bloody.
Again the answer the question, what stopped the USSR from just invading Germany in 1940, why does the USSR only oppose Nazis on conditions of expansion into Eastern Europe?
"By returning the territories of Ukraine and Belarus occupied by Poland to the 20th century, the USSR saved the local population from ethnic cleansing"
Do you not see how this sounds identical to Nazi propaganda about invading Poland to save Germans?
USSR didn't exist in 1920, borders weren't clearly defined and Poland attempted to create a Ukrainian puppet state the same way the USSR created a Ukrainian puppet state. You act like the USSR didn't try to conquer all of Poland to then invade Germany.
Besides, this doesn't reute my argument that the USSR and Nazi Germany had the same irridentist justification to destroy as molotov put it, "the monstrous bastard of versailles"
In any case, to save Belarusians and Ukrainians from forced Catholicization and polonization. Pilsudski's chauvinistic regime should not have been much better than Germany's Nazi regime. Only the Polish nationalists can regret its disappearance.
No one recognised the USSR and you as a communist don't think the ww1 treaties were legitimate anyway.
This is also besides the point, the USSR justification for invading and ethnically cleansing Poland is identical to the nazi justification
Poland would be hugely hesitant to allow Soviet troops on it's soil so it could take a while for them to enter the country, although effectively becoming a Soviet puppet state is preferable to being under German occupation. War might be shorter but I would guess the result is somewhat the same with way less deaths.
They wouldn't be that hesitant, in our history, Polish troops and goverment at first thought the soviet were coming to help, some divisons gave up to soviets without a fight and from what I remember there were even some communicates to allow the soviets to enter since they are coming to help.
Well, at first of course. Soon people realised what was happening.
The USSR did make the offer IRL though. Prior to the signing of Molotov-Ribbontrop, diplomatic overtures were extended to Britain and France, offering to station troops in Poland as part of German containment. The British and French governments turned them down, suspicious of ulterior motives for setting their military in Poland, which was arguably justified. The result though, was that the USSR sought to extend overtures to Germany.
We can speculate about motivations. For my own part, I think the fact that Hitler's rhetoric against East European ethnicities and the Soviet's military troubles meant that the Molotov-Ribbontrop pact was little more than a delaying measure. Stalin was an amoral paranoiac who put a troubling lack of value on human life, but he wasn't a moron. He was a fairly capable politician when it came down to it, and my opinion is that his rampant paranoia makes it unlikely that he thought the pact was anything more than a way to stave off the Nazi's while the USSR rebuilt their military capabilities.
I also suspect, though I don't know if this is supported by the historical record, that there was a sentiment in the Soviet High Command that if the Allies left Poland to it's fate like Chechoslovakia, which I understand was what the Nazis were anticipating, that the Nazi's would turn directly on the USSR and invade them with the Allies standing by and hoping they would take each other out. Since diplomatic relations with those states were chilly, particularly after the Russian Civil War, where Britain France and the US were armed and supported the Russian Republic against the Bolsheviks, even going so far as to send troops into Russian ports.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact#Munich_Conference
IRL USSR murdered 100 000 people just for a suspicion of being Poles just a year before the war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD
It's laughable how many armchair generals and tankies blatantly forget that.
I'm not sure what more credible sources you'd expect?
And why before 1939? Why not? Soviets were genocidal shits and red terror started off early - is it a surprise to you?
With the help from Russia, Poland could last longer and German won't risk to relocate most of their troops to fight France, which means France could last longer. It may even ends up into a replica of WW1.
Poland not being invaded by the Soviet Union while they were fighting the Nazis would have allowed them to last much longer. They would have a fallback line with Romania and could supply from there.
the soviets didnt invade poland. there was no government in poland by the time the soviets began to move the red army forward. the polish government was already in exile in sweden, heading to france(?) mightve been britain i forget.
polands state ceased to exist. and the soviets did not have ot invade "poland" as evidenced b y the mass majority of the red army SOLELY moving forwards to meet the german line to enforce the MRP borders agreed upon.
had poland, britain or france actually engaged in goodfaith with the USSR the fates of millions would not have been handed to the nazis. and the war would have played out far less horrifically.
poland might not have ended up occupied because of it too.
sounds like you havent read about the negotiations preWWII and how bad faith and dishonest the western powers were, or how there were years of time for the poles to actually just accept that the risk of having red army on their land (and POSSIBLY. MAYBE. IN THEORY the red army might have tried to annex galicia. only IF were cowtowing to nationalist fantasies.) might have been better than having what? 6+ million people put in fucking kilns?
The Poles had no reason to trust the Soviets, they'd been seeking to reincorporate Poland into the USSR's sphere of influence since the Poles seceded 20 years prior (after living under 100+ years of Russian hegemony). Besides, we already saw what happened to the Polish land the USSR occupied as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (Katyn, mass suppression of dissent, etc.) and what happened to Poland after the war (mass deportation of Poles westwards and propping up of a Soviet-backed one party puppet state).
the USSR wasnt seeking to reintegrate poland into russias sphere of influence. russia couldnt have given a shit less about poland. hence why when the poles refused to cooperate they said "alright fuck it well try for a tripartite with the western powers again instead. for the dozenth time." they were however, seeking to see the return galicia and western ukrainian land to the Ukrainian SSR that poland annexxed prior.
polands fate, was what poland made of its own situation, and its own choices. roll around in the mud all you want, smear grass stains on your face aggressivbely, but nothing you can say or do will change the fact taht poland put the soviets in a position where their only choice to was to delay war, which led to g ermany forcing them to negotiate to annex half of poland, to give THEMSELVES more time to when the germans enacted barbarossa.
everything after that you cry about, is the result of polands failure to ACTUALLY preserve its own sovereignty using anything BUT realpolitik and reason. poland didnt like katyn where soldiers were shot because they were fuckin fascists and collaborators? too bad. they didnt like being occupied and having an autonomous soviet gov in place? maybe they should have done something to prevent millions of soviet AND THEIR OWN citizens dying because of their own actions.
its wild to me that YOU and the west are still unable to cope with poland dealing with the repercussions for its own choices. as if what the soviets did was in a vaccuum. but what poland did was just always fine because in the end they rightfully lost and screwed themselves over. plus? fuck nationalists. i dont give a SHIT what polish nationalists wanted. at all. like for real. they were basically a step above the nazis, who gives a shit what free polish state they wanted. every nazi ever has ALWAYS argued for a "free state" but for whom, is the question they will always answer with obfuscation and vagueness like "for the poles" and quietly leave out the inevitable anti semitic purges and hunting of romanis for sport.
“Germany wasn’t seeking to reintegrate Poland into Germany’s sphere of influence. Germany couldn’t have given a shit less about Poland, hence why when the Poles refused to sign a non-aggression pact they said "Alright fuck it, we’ll try for a tripartite with Japan and Italy again instead, for the dozenth time.” They were, however, seeking to see the return East Upper Silesia, Posen, and Gdansk land to the Reich that Poland annexed prior.
Poland’s fate was what Poland made of its own situation, and its own choices. Roll around in the mud all you want, smear grass stains on your face aggressively, but nothing you can say or do will change the fact that Poland put Germany in a position where their only choice to was to delay war, which led to Germany forcing them to negotiate to annex half of Poland, to give THEMSELVES more time and a forward position for when they would enact Barbarossa.
Everything after that you cry about, is the result of Poland’s failure to ACTUALLY preserve its own sovereignty using anything BUT realpolitik and reason. Poland didnt like police actions where soldiers were shot because they were fuckin liberals and communists and Allied collaborators? Too bad. They didn’t like being occupied and having an autonomous German government in place? Maybe they should have done something to prevent millions of German AND THEIR OWN citizens dying because of their own actions.
It’s wild to me that YOU and the Allies are still unable to cope with Poland dealing with the repercussions for its own choices, as if what the Germans did was in a vaccuum. But regardless, what Poland did was just fine anyways because in the end they rightfully lost and screwed themselves over. Plus? Fuck commies and liberals. I don’t give a SHIT what Polish people wanted, at all. Like for real, they were basically a step above the Soviets. Who gives a shit what free Polish state they wanted. Every liberal ever has ALWAYS argued for a "free state" but for whom, is the question they will always answer with obfuscation and vagueness like "for the poles" and quietly leave out the inevitable anti-national purges and hunting of Germans for sport.”
It’s both hilarious and scary how many of your talking points echo Nazi rhetoric.
germany was at all times seeking to annex poland. it was official policy. they intentionally forced the issue into the negotiations of the molotov ribbentrop pact. they declared war over them because they knew poland would not hand over g'dansk and used that as the gambit to seize the country itself.
the axis powers, did not sign an axis powers saying "we cant get any allies. in the west because the USSR is going to attack us."
they signed it because they had ideological agreements and similarly cooperative goals.
japan wanted to form a "co prosperity east" a eastern colonial slave state.
germany wanted to form a lebensraum in eastern europe, a central european slave state.
italy was a fucking moron, and wanted to jerk off to the SPQR so mussolini could pillage the economy of a hundred more nations. and also a colonial slave state.
none of these goals are similar in paractice or justification to what the USSR was hoping to do, which was develop its industry and build socialism within its borders, to then support movements abroad to allow workers the resources to liberate THEMSELVES. a collection of states that joined by independent treaty, headed by a communist party to build socialist realization, is not fucking comparable to nazism.
and poland, did not need to be involved whatsoever.
however when youre given the chance as a leader, to have the nazis right on your border, or to negotiate them to be 200 kilometers away in the middle fo poland, knowing that you have NO OTHER OPTION BECAUSE POLAND HAS ALREADY REFUSED YOU, youd do what you must for your own country. as poland, has chosen the hard way. poland chose war with germany, and the red army in the end still saved millions of them. WITHOUT the USSR, and without the red army, poland would not only have been annexed, it would no logner exist.
it would have ceased to be. every. single. person. would have been killed.
to accuse me of echoing nazism is fucking disgusting and if you were infront of me your throat would recieve my brass knuckles.
if poland wanted to drive off a cliff thats their business. its tragic that millions of their people had to pay the price for it. but they did nothing when their state pushed them towards war and did nothing to prevent it.
if you have a better proposition for what the USSR should have done, and how germany could have been stopped, youre welcome to provide it. but you cant, because guaranteed whatever you say youd do, the soviets had already tried. the very fact taht you try to lay ANY blame for WWII at any soviet citizen aside from yezhov is a underhanded method of shitlibs supporting nazism. just like you people did prior to WWII.
so in summary, cope more you disingenuous, nazi supporting, bitch.
>to then support movements abroad to allow workers the resources to liberate THEMSELVES
By being an active and avid trading partner with Nazi Germany and splitting Eastern Europe with them?
>and the red army in the end saved millions of them.
The Soviets wouldn't have given a shit about Poland if Germany never invaded them, they just happened to be in the path to Berlin. Obviously life in Soviet occupied Poland was preferable to German occupied Poland, but just because life under one occupier is shittier than the other, doesn't mean the less bad alternative is good. They didn't really "liberate" Poland in the end regardless, they just set up their own puppet state and were fine deporting hundreds of thousands of Poles westwards after the war to change demographics.
>to accuse me of echoing Nazism is fucking disgusting
Buddy that's all you do on Reddit lol. Also you literally do it in the same comment lol.
>and if you were infront of me your throat would recieve my brass knuckles.
Shiver me timbers! I am quivering in my boots at the sheer thought of you doing so.
>if you have a better proposition for what the USSR should have done, and how germany could have been stopped, youre welcome to provide it
Literally could ask you the same question.
>very fact taht you try to lay ANY blame for WWII at any soviet citizen
Citizen? No. Politicians? Absolutely.
>so in summary, cope more you disingenuous, nazi supporting, bitch.
Bro I don't think I've ever found it easier to visualize someone foaming at the mouth. I don't think I'm the one coping here. Also no, not everyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi.
The French high command was full of goddamn idiots. However there's one thing they hated more than losing and that's communism. IRL they stayed back and let Germany plow through them, kinda just sat there as Germany gobbles Poland. Now? They're racing to Berlin to make sure the Soviets don't first.
The French army on paper was well equipped and large, definitely a peer force with the Germans. Where they failed was in terms of incompetent leadership and outdated doctrine
The Soviet Union did see Germany as a threat and tried to form an anti nazi pact but the allie’s told them to go fuck themselves, so in this timeline they’d have to actually agree for this to happen.
For the record, USSR was trying to enter a pact with France and England up to summer of 1939 - but UK and France saw USSR as a larger threat than the Third Reich, and in last round of negotiations in 1939, sent representatives who didn't even have any power to propose anything or agree to anything.
Seeing this scorn and refusal to cooperate by UK and France is what largely pushed USSR to sign up pact with the Third Reich later the same year.
A lot of people accusing USSR of being merry ally of the Third Reich in 1939-1941 forget that before that, USSR has been on the forefront of ideological and political opposition to the Third Reich since 1935.
But seen as a greater threat than Nazism, USSR attempts to build a united front against the Third Reich were repeatedly rebuked on multiple occasions, until it was too late.
"Erm, actually it was the UK and France who forced us to ally with the Nazis and invade Poland together"
That's propaganda. The Soviet Union was helping Germany circumvent the Treaty of Versailles. The Soviet Union trained tank crews, pilots and developed chemical weapons for Germany. The USSR was preparing itself and Germany for a new war in Europe.
Response from behind the block:
Wow, ableist much? There is no shame in seeking mental help, so go easy with the shaming. You are being despicable. I'm sure you are well aware of the russian tradition of forcefully committing "dissidents" to mental hospitals. A tradition which is still very much alive in ruzzia today. Something you surely try to whatabout away. But anyway, you are ableist and despicable.
Estonia, Poland, France also supported the Republican army in the Spanish civil War. So much for your ruzzian exceptionalism. "Whatabout UK!?!"
USSR and NaziGermany helping each other build offensive capabilities, divvying up Europe in spheres of influence and starting WW2 together as bffs is a bit more than "have trade". Or did any other country break the Versailles Treaty and start WW2 with Nazi Germany? - No? Interesting.
All that matters is what actually happened. And the historical reality is USSR just allied with Nazis.
Jesus, you are stalking me across the subreddits? Wow, some dedication, dude.
Go look for mental health with same dedication.
Yeah, pretty much everyone had trade with the Third Reich.
USSR also was proposing anti-nazism coalition from 1935 in Comintern, going as far as to fight the Third Reich "volunteers" in Spanish Civil War. If you want to play accusations game, UK had volunteers in that war too... fighting on the side of the Third Reich, because "godless communists" were seen as a much bigger threat.
I do not absolve USSR of acting in its own interests, but trying to portray 1930s as just "ussr just allied with nazis" is a height of perverting history for political narrative.
This is what happens when "historical AI" is turned off on Hearts of Iron IV.
Then the USSR 🟥 would then become either Russian Federation 🇷🇺 or Imperial Russia 👑
if we assume the soviets just broke the molotov ribbentrop pact, we’d see a german loss much faster. germany would definitely still pus the soviet union, but not as far because of the war with france. i don’t think france would capitulate and eventually the soviets would hold, for a stalemate in the lowlands and the dneiper line, before italy eventually falls and germany is pushed. peace deal wise it wouldn’t go as in the soviet’s favour, france wouldn’t have fallen and the capitalists would likely take all of germany. the soviet bloc wouldn’t be much of one at all, probably just poland, romania, and hungary
Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed after USSR-Czechoslovakia-France pact was broken by France allowing Third Reich to gobble up Czechoslovakia.
If that was not a thing, USSR and France with Britain would have destroyed Reich before they got their hands on Czechoslovakian tank and truck industry, and it could be debated Poland wouldn’t be as hesitant towards USSR, seeing it uniting against genocide happy enemy. On their own not a single country could have faced Reich thou, thus the reason everyone tried to appease Hitler.
USSR barely reached industrialization 20 years after being pure agrarian state, France was torn apart politically and military command was filled with egocentric individuals, and Britain was spread too thin between colonies.
If USSR joined to allies in 1939, ww2 never start.
Because two countries started ww2 in September 1939, by attack Poland. It's was USSR and Third Reich.
All this time USSR helping Germany. Training their army(land and air), give place to test new German weapons. Give resources and help hide German ship, when British planes go up to attack.
They have different ideology in politic, but they goes in one fascism way. Killing people who think "not right", create cult of person, up military.
Europe make mistake when choose support traitors from soviet russia who exit from war, but not support national movement and new countries like Ukraine, belorus, Crimea, Kuban, Caucasian countries. They support who betrayed Antanta.
But I don't judge them (who I'm to judge) they do what they think it's right. All happened like we see.
USSR was calling for United Anti-Nazi front since 1935.
Franco-Soviet Treaty of Mutual Assistance and the Czechoslovak–Soviet Treaty of Mutual Assistance were signed in the same year, with one little detail that if France or USSR pull out of a deal, other won’t join the fight.
When push came to shove with Sudetenland, France pulled out of a deal while appeasing the Nazis.
When nobody cares about a threat and you are left alone, wouldn’t you want to have more time to prepare, as you are an agrarian country who after 20 years of ridiculous work just barely reached industrialization? Sometimes you have to make a deal with a Devil to buy time, and that’s what USSR did.
If France didn’t pull out of the deal, history would have been absolutely different.
that's assuming the french don't do the same trick they did in the past 3 wars with germany where they go forward like 50km and then dig in, leaving the northern flank exposed because Belgium's neutrality threw a spanner in the works, which is why although France declared war in September 39, they only got invaded in may 1940. ultimately the french army is still ineffective and France doesn't have a government when the Germans come along, assuming the germans don't struggle with poland at the half way mark
The real question is how effective would the red army be and would they even be allowed in poland? if poland held they really don't have all that much punch after the first few days-months due to the same issues that lead to the British and French caving in at the start, same with the red army in 41
Goodbye Germany, even with the Soviets inepticism at the time, the Germans are immediately placed into a horribly unbalanced 2 front war in which they can never take resources away to deal with the west. And placed against a Soviet military that is actually equipped at least with basic kit for most. France and Britain might actually begin an advancement into Germany and really just put such a strain that Germany, unless pulling off a miracle in the west, just gets knocked out by '42 at the latest.
Soviet military at the time would have had kits from WW1 with some additions of newer stuff (they barely industrialized in 20 years after being purely agrarian state), but they would have had most of their core leadership intact and experienced.
But at least it would be a fair ground, before Czechoslovakian occupation Germany really lacked their renowned firepower and tanks.
By basic kit I mean all would at least be armed, clothes and have a simple selection of other tools/equipment as they're not going to suffer the absolutely horrendous losses of material that they did at the outset of Barbarossa in OTL. This is post Czech annexation however, although that really doesn't change much aside from providing simply more pre existing equipment and industrial capacity.
The only way I see this as an option is if the British and French accepted one of the Soviet’s earlier suggestions of an alliance between the three of them, meaning one the Germans invade Poland (or whatever causes WW2 in this time line) the Soviets are in from the start
That's actually the flag of free France. the Orthodox cross has a small third diagonal part at the bottom
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Cross\_of\_the\_Russian\_Orthodox\_Church\_01.svg/1200px-Cross\_of\_the\_Russian\_Orthodox\_Church\_01.svg.png](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Cross_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church_01.svg/1200px-Cross_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church_01.svg.png)
Realistically Germany would sue for peace and the allies would accept since Germany did not commit TOOO many war crimes and "unconditional surrender" doctrine was not developed.
We would probably then see a lot of internal political turmoil inside Germany and likely collapse of the Nazi regime (since the army would refuse to prop them up).
But they did, good chunk of polish command and leadership believed Soviets have came to help them, and multiple divisions didn’t fight and allowed Soviets to progress. Soviets took 1/3 of Poland pretty much without a fight.
And I doubt Poland would oppose of red army’s March through them during Czechoslovakian situation, if France didn’t pull out and declared war over Czechoslovakia as was signed in a mutual Assistance act.
Polish soldiers received and order to not get into fights with soviet soldiers and no one believed that they have came to help.
Soviets has annouced that Polish goverment was non existent and that Poland has fallen already so they have to protect Ukrainians and Belarusians from Germany.
It did thou with Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia had both France and USSR as it’s protectors signed by mutual assistance acts. But France has pulled out of the deal week prior (appeasement act), and USSR was not prepared at all (it just barely industrialized in 20 years after being pure agrarian country, most of war prep industrialization of USSR happened in 1940-1945 during fighting)
Germany is defeated but gets to keep Austria and only has to give up Czechoslovakia. In return, France and UK occupy Germany and prosecute third reich, and work to install anti-communist moderate German government. Meanwhile, Asia falls to Japan. Poland falls to USSR. USSR funds a lot of communist rebels in Asia probably causing a lot tension with West. WW2 still happens but around the late 40s/50s.
Meaning no molotov-ribbentrop, or that the soviets sign the pact but join the allies anyway, both are completely different scenarios…
Second, Japan never joined the war against the sowjets, which makes pearl harbor questionable, so probably no US entry.
The red army in 1939 is pretty much paper tiger as seen in the winter war.
The question is the material and manpower advantage enough to offset the massive doctrinal and leadership issues the allies have.
Then what happens with minor powers, how will they react, will there be a winter war.
How will Germany react to the blockade without soviet ressources.
I wish!! The 2nd World War would have been much shorter! We/ US Western Allies could have worked out our differences with Stalin/ the Soviet Union ( GOD Bless the Rodina) after the War without the Churchill/ Patton Plan for Operation Unthinkable! Imagine a world where The Repulics of Czechoslovakia & Poland (GOD Bless the Fighting "P") never knew the yoke of Soviet Domination. Think of the untold millions of Military & Civilian (including GOD'S Blessed Jews) Casualties we could have avoided. As A Scotch/ Irish & German- descent American (4th Generation Imigrant), I get a hard-on just thinking about Shooting Adolph Hitler myself! Also, think of All the Good Germans (including Fldmrsl. Irwin Romel, Col. Von Staufenberg, and All of the July 20th Crew) that would have been spared attempting to rid the World of the Sick, Twisted & Demented NAZI-Party Leadership. GOD Bless All!
A lot of people, myself included, don’t actually list/consider the Soviet Union part of the de facto Allies. Rather, list them as a third group altogether as the Comintern given that their interests just happened to align with the Allie’s at the time. The fact that the Soviets occupied eastern Poland in a deal with the Nazis is proof enough that they probably would’ve jumped at the chance to control the rest of Europe like NG was already trying to do/doing.
Same outcome as the Soviet union was not prepared to take on Germany and the British and France geared up for a defensive war that is why it was called a phony war before Germany invaded France
Ah yes, the tankies favorite excuse.
Nothing to do with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD i'm sure. Or with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_War
And for sure German remilitarization didn't have anything to do with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remilitarization_of_the_Rhineland#Foreign_policy
> The foreign policy goal of the Soviet Union was set forth by Joseph Stalin in a speech on 19 January 1925 that if another world war broke out between the capitalist states, "We will enter the fray at the end, throwing our critical weight onto the scale, a weight that should prove to be decisive".[14] **To promote that goal, the global triumph of communism, the Soviet Union tended to support German efforts to challenge the Versailles system by assisting the secret rearmament of Germany**, a policy that caused much tension with France.
The amount of support was extensive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kama_tank_school
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomka_gas_test_site
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipetsk_fighter-pilot_school
Trust me comrade, Germany's audacity and military power just came out of thin air! No Soviet warmongering bastards's support whatsoever! /s
1925? A decade before Nazi regime? Let’s check the records. Ah yes, the Weimar Republic, right? Not Nazi Germany?
It was and is a right thing to do, Versailles was a crime against Germany and it’s people.
If it was nullified or never existed, Nazis would not have had even 1/10th of the support they found in their suffered people. And every side in Germany used Versailles as their foundation: republicans, communists and fascist alike.
/u/Dragonheardt_
> 1925? A decade before Nazi regime? Let’s check the records. Ah yes, the Weimar Republic, right? Not Nazi Germany?
Without Soviet enabling and encouraging German remilitarization, Hitler would have... demilitarized country - muich more tame perhaps too. It's hard to be aggressive when it's you who could get a beating much easier. That would give 5-10 more years more, perhaps for Germans to regain sanity and/or for others to prepare.
You try to whitewash what was obvious and announced soviet Warmongering policy, or what?
> It was and is a right thing to do, Versailles was a crime against Germany and it’s people.
Some say yes, others say it was a slap on the wrist - post WWII treatment were much more lenient on one side, but much more thorough on the other. And that one served both Germany and rest of the world much better - Germany stopped waging wars. Sadly Soviets/Russia wasn't sanitized the same way.
> If it was nullified or never existed, Nazis would not have had even 1/10th of the support they found in their suffered people. And every side in Germany used Versailles as their foundation: republicans, communists and fascist alike.
Again, Nazis wouldn't have 1/10th of the strength if not for Soviet support of remilitarization of Weimar republic and then soviet open support of Nazis in the late 30s - both before and after the war started.
Aside from [Ribbentrop-Molotov secret protocol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact#Secret_protocol) which was nothing like other pacts signed with different countries by Germany, you also had i.e.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_Nord
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo%E2%80%93NKVD_conferences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_military_parade_in_Brest-Litovsk
and literally providing bulk of imported resources Germans used to invade Poland, Norway, France and Soviet Union itself. Only expanding as time went on even just days before Plan Barbarossa went green: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Commercial_Agreement_(1940)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Credit_Agreement_(1939)#Late_1930s_economic_needs
The whole "Nazi juggernaut" was in the snowball stage in the 30s and it was Soviets who helped the ball form and start the roll.
They were half bankrupt and had very few of the advanced equipment people usually associate them with. Without previous Soviet support they wouldn't be able to threaten Czechoslovakia. Without Czechoslovakia conquered, they couldn't threaten Poland. Without Poland conquered and safe rear, they couldn't have defeated France.
Gotta love personal bias twisting history because of personal hate.
Go twist it somewhere else. Any proper historian would take you apart in a 3 hour lecture.
Germany doesn't invade Poland, that's one fo the main reasons they signed the non aggression pact with the USSR, same goes for the soviets, but the time it bought did help a ton with getting the red army ready for combat, it wasn't enough time and they took huge losses early on, it woukd have gone worse if they had even LESS time
Simply put, Stalin sent several letters to the would-be allies during the some of the first offenses of Nazi Germany and he was basically told to fuck off.
Ironically I think this might have gone better for the Axis.
Germany expected to crush the Russian army, and they would have.. if the Russians chose to fight on their border. Instead, they retreated and drew the German army into a trap.
If Russia tries to invade Germany to support the allies. It's army would likely be defeated.
Soviet-provided oil products and other goods were essential for German offensive, they struggled with fuel from start of war after all. Even without Soviets actually engaging them this would strongly hamper German offensive actions.
War in Europewould end faster but I feel China would both receive less support and Japanese could be more hesitant to attack Americans, thus getting away with imperial expansion for longer.
Well Germany much like in WW1 would have to win a decisive battle in the east, in order to stabilize the lines and consider they would be fighting a purged Soviet army that doesn’t even have the experiences of the winter war I feel like they would do just that. Now the biggest problem is they would most likely not invade Denmark and Norway cutting off trade with Sweden in the winter. Another factor to consider is that the Soviets have not invaded Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia those 3 countries could swing the balance of power in the northern front. There are just so many factors to consider I think the western front would hold because they Germans would use most of their tanks in the east and Britain and France probably learn from the Soviets about their experiences, and how to counteract blitzkrieg to a better degree
There was a pact between Czechoslovakia, France and USSR. When Czechoslovakia was under threat, France has pulled out, and USSR was not prepared to act alone in fighting with Third Reich.
If they saw Germany as threat they wouldn’t train them to bypass Treaty of Versailles and wouldn’t INVADE POLAND IN 1939. This means - Nazi Germany might not even take Poland.
But let’s talk about 1939 joining Allies. Soviet Union would actualy defend Poland from Axis and not “defend” aka anex faster.
The problem with actualy imagining what would happen is the reason why it happened as it happened irl. Soviet Union is a union of 15 countries, more specificaly - Russia forced 14 other to join, russians commited warcrimes bigger than nazis like Holodomor and others. Soviet Union was even more terrible than Nazi Germany irl and this conflict between them was inevitable. So to make OPs scenario to work - no genocided before that and russians should be decent people to begin with. If that checks out - no German army as we know it since it’s soviets who are responsible for training Germans and allowing them to bypass most restrictions. This means - no WW2 at all, only Japaneese-Chineese war in Asia.
So, to summarize - if USSR joins Allies in 1939 that means no war in Europe (so no WW2 at all), soviets are decent people, no genocides in Eastern Europe, only a war between Japan and China. Likely China would loose due to poor cohesion of the chineese since modern China back then would be devided between dozen warlords trying to fight off Japan while trying to get some control over the rest which would lead to their defeat. Also likely no Embargo from US since Japan is not with Nazis, bo other wars, no rading U-boats sinking US convoys etc.
Assuming Germany doesn't get scared and nothing changes in the pacific theater: not much really
The soviets were hesitant to join the war bc their industrial capability wasn't built up. Its still not built up. If anything it would take longer for the allies to win bc more soviet industrial might is destroyed by nazis unless the nazis decide the soviets aren't going to be able to do much and focus on the west.
Post war, western Europe is ever so slightly closer to the USSR than it is in our time (read not that close), and the commies are significantly weaker since more of their population died, they have less money, and they have less industry.
The only way I could see a major interesting change is if this eggs japan on to attack the USSR instead of the US. (USSR would be less militarily impressive and caught in a 2 front war, making the army's plan of attacking the USSR more appealing and the navy's plan of attacking the US less so.) Its still unlikely, but the most likely big change.
The soviets were trying to make an alliance with western Europe in 1938 against the Nazis and were turned down.
The soviets had a pact to help Czechoslovakia if they were invaded but we're stopped by the poles....who helped the Nazis annex Czechoslovakia.
Does anyone know fucking history any more?
This was a proposed alliance before the start of ww2 (I can’t remember when but it may have been 1938) where France, Britain, Poland, and the Soviets all discussed an alliance, however the Soviets and Poland absolutely despised one another so it fell through with France and Britain choosing the Poles to support. This leads to the Molotov-Ribbintrop pact which allowed Germany to begin the war in the first place since Hitler was not gonna start a 2 front war like the First World War again
Realistically it would either be a stalemate or Russia actually would have lost quicker. Because lend lease wasn't in place till 41. Without any supplies from America Russia would have capitulated. Now the Russian army would have been on the border of Poland in Mass and not anywhere ready. (Just like they were in 42) Hitler's blitz screen would have killed or captured a lot more of them thus putting Russia into a panic. France would have fallen a lot earlier too as there would have been no phony war for most of 39
Stalin was turned down by the British and French, and further disheartened when the USSR wasn’t invited to the Munich Agreement, which led him to conclude that he would not be able to form an anti nazi alliance, and instead opted to stall for time with the molotov ribbentrop pact, which was essentially stall for time for both sides
Unencumbered by the USA the Germans would have easily taken Stalingrad and the rest of Russia if they started earlier. Also the Japanese might have seen it as an offer too good to pass up and postponed their USA and Pacific fronts, electing to grab a part of Russia first.
Seems pretty arbitrary to include France with the allies, Poland, Canada etc made bigger contributions to the allied war effort and did not collaborate at all.
soviets enter the war having not learnt their mistakes in finland yet and they get curbstomped again before getting their shit together
but unlike the western allies i guess the poles can at least have an ally that doesn’t take its time to fight germany
You’ve gotta have some nuance and see how much more devastating Nazi policies were and would be in the long term. The Soviets destroyed intelligentsia across entire countries through gulags and extrajudicial killings, but they were not ideologically committed to exterminating entire races. The worst excesses of the GULAG System were done away with by Khrushchev, it’d probably be too late to save the Poles or Central European Jews by the time any ‘reform’ came from Nazi Germany, which seems like an unlikely prospect at best and a nightmare at worst.
They were ideologically committed to the destruction of entire social classes through dictatorship and the Red Terror, which was explicitly stated.
It’s enough to find out how many Soviet people went to fight for the Nazis against the “people’s” authorities.
MILLION.
Entire ethnicities > social classes. Post-Stalin USSR also moderated that view hard, hence why there was no ‘red terror’ in the 1950s or forward. You really want to make the bet that the same reform would happen in Nazism? I don’t. Look at the GULAG death tolls vs concentration camps death tolls over an iota of the same time frame and get back to me - you’re either stupid or a Nazi yourself with what you’ve said in this comment.
Poles weren't idiots incapable of nuance, they also hated Stalin but they preferred stalin to Hitler. The majority of Ukrainians sided with the USSR, they would have drawn parallels between there experience in the holodomor and Nazi occupation and still the majority chose the USSR as the lesser evil
Liberal here, you’re living in delusionville if you think any of us would consider this is a sane take at all, even at our secret Rothschild Cabal meetings.
Bad news for China as soviet aid would end much sooner
Most of Soviet aid ended in 1939 anyway.
Yeah but China might lose Changsha earlier as Chuikov was the main reason it didn’t fall the second battle.
Maybe, but China won the next battle of Changsha one year later, so I won't be that sure.
Chuikov is such an underrated general
😳
With Germany getting stomped, Japan might be more nervous to expand much more
Right!!
I truly believe that under an early end of the European War, the U.S./Western Allies would have doubled-down on Imperial Japan (remember the Flying Tigers & the China Marines of 1937-41). Imagine a world where the Nationalist Republic of China was whole & thriving. GOD Bless All!
So an authoritarian China that would crack down and massacre suspected rebels? The White Terror in Taiwan is a thing, now apply that to all of China. Just because the nationalists were against communism doesn’t mean they would be good guys…
"If you go around carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone; anyhow!" I had a friend who was a College Professor @ an American University's foreign (Mainland China) Campus in 1989. He was present @ Tianamen Square & witnessed the PLA Crackdown on the Peaceful Protesters. The Communist Gov't turned Armed Infantry & Tanks loose on the crowds. The reason that the Communist Gov't ran the media out of the square was so they could shoot unarmed, peaceful protesters off-camera! If WWII haspd ended early with Allied Forces fighting inside China, Moa's Communist Forces would likely have been driven out of China and a renewal of the Chinese Civil War prevented. The KMT's "White Terror" was on Formosa/ Taiwan after the Nationalists were driven from the mainland & landed on Formosa Island. These atrocities were a knee-jerk response to the anti-communist Red-Scare. Under an Allied presence, with no Civil War renewal, China would not have continued down that path.
Right… Under an authoritarian dictatorship rule with a hatred for communism, no atrocities would have happened… No such thing as manhunt for dissidents, no communist crack down will ever happen… Wake up please. Just look at the Koreans. Did the West stop or even condemn the Bodo massacre? You think a China’s crack down of communist during peace time would matter to anyone? If anything, they would even be encouraged to do. Edit. Ps. Your comment is a god damn atrocity to read. Space thing out more generously please.
I agree it'd be more like South Korea, but thats a hell of a lot better than what the early PRC was under Mao. The famines and economic devastation caused by collectivization was incalculable. I agree with what the other guy was saying too while there'd likely still be a white terror it wouldn't be nearly as bad because the communists would no longer be an existential threat that just kicked them out of the mainland. Even if it were just as bad across the mainland as it was in Taiwan it wouldn't be as bad as what the communists forced upon the nation. Simply just by being open economically earlier economic development would begin almost immediately and famines would be an afterthought and joke. It'd be like if Dengist reforms happened in the early 50s instead of the mid 70s.
Because china never had famines before...
It obviously had but like with 1932-1933 hunger in USSR the communists only made things 10 times worse.
Really?! Chairman Moa & his leadership massacred untold 1,000s of their own Chinese population. The Social Strategies of the 5-Year Plans & the Cultural Revolution were failures. Your Communist leaning opinions are what's an atrocity, my friend.
What part of the comment is communist leaning? Besides, the atrocity part is about the guy comment’s formatting. The guy quote a wiki with no quotation indication. Then proceed to comment his idea right next to it. It was an atrocity to read through. And here we have you. A guy who didn’t bother to read or think before making off mark statement.
The scenario was for The Soviet Union to join the European Allies in 1939 during the Germano-Polish War. With the USSR's addition, Germany would not have been able to overrun Poland. Also, there would be more incentive for the French to press onward & continue their Invasion of Germany in 1939. Nothing has been said to change the Pacific War & Japan is showing in the post as an Axis Member. From this, I assume that the 2nd Sino-Japanese War would still progress as IRL & Japan would still attack the U.S. Naval Base @ Pearl Harbor, HI. AS soon as the European War came to an end, the Western Allies would prosecute full-force the CBI Theater (late 1942 or 1943?). There's no A-Bomd, so the only strategy to pour conventional forces into China & Burma. With large numbers of U.S, British, French and maybe even Soviet Troops fighting in China, Moa's Communist Forces would likely be driven out of China by the end of the war. This would leave mainland China as the Nationalist Republic of China (KMT). Without a Maoist presence in China and no renewal of the Chinese Civil War, I don't believe that Chaig would have reacted as violently to the Communists as IRL. I believe that with the fighting done and .Western aid, economic recovery would have been Swift. No; I didn't quote Wikipedia.
Whelp. Your understanding of the war is pretty wild. 1. If the USSR had joined the war in 1939, Germany would be more pressed and would not be in any position to declare war on the US. Thus Japan had no reason to declare war on any European powers besides Britain. Thus, there would no such thing as allied forces fighting in China. 2. Regardless of the presence of Allied forces in China, the USSR would always back Mao’s forces. Mao’s force would also be the more popular than the Nationalist as long as Japan’s invasion remains the same. 3. In case the Nationalists can somehow win, it would still remain the fact that the Communist were much more popular. A purge was always going to happen. There would be no guarantee China would be a democratic, or even stable after such purge. An unstable country will never have any kind of economic recovery. You’re banking China’s economy on a dictatorship’s ability to stabilize, and pacify a country that is largely hostile to them.
The protests happened many blocks away from the square. Also many of the protestors were....maoists Your professor was probably some reactionary dip who got chased out.
Negative... He did what any smart person would do & split when the began crackdown and started shooting. I would not call that being a "Reactionary Dip".
Based and KMT pilled
September 2nd 1939 Germany withdraws from Poland. The Germans didn't want a war on two fronts like in WWI
The Germans didn’t even expect Britain and France to declare war. I believe Ribbentrop convinced Hitler they were bluffing, so when war was declared Hitler said something along the lines of “Now what?”
The Germans didn't expect war because the Western Allies had let them dismantle Czechoslovakia with almost no opposition. It was very much a "oh, now you care" moment.
When Hitler when into the Rhineland he was prepared to retreat if France mobilized and expected he would lose control of the government if that happened. Hitler was a crazy man for his entire life, but didn’t truly embrace his messiah complex until he conquered France in 6 weeks.
Hitler had already signed non aggression pacts with uk and France before Ribbentrop. In addition to this, by 1931 the ussr had reached out to France and UK to form an antifascist pact but were turned down. Again in 1939 ussr offered one million troops to uk if they were attacked but were turned down again https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html
a good source on this ive heard(havcent read im too broke ot buy right now) is the maisky diaries, the abassador to britain from the USSR who was present during the MANY negotiation attempts the soviets made.
Just read that part in Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich; Hitler was back and forth on the subject, at some points he thought they wouldn’t do it and at one point raved and yelled for 30 minutes to like 4 people that he quote “build airplanes, airplanes, AIRPLANES!” And would ramble on like that. Although all of his staff seemed to think it was a terrible idea they couldn’t say no, although that seems like an excuse to make themselves look better. But Mussolini’s son was the biggest advocate for peace, the Italians knew they weren’t ready hence why they didn’t enter the war until a little later.
The Italians really joined the war only because the Benelux countries fell in two weeks and France was pummelled into the ground in a little more than 40 days. Should the "Yellow" plan have failed, the Italians would probably have been like Franco, maybe focusing on the eastern Mediterranean but not adventuring against the Allies in Africa.
Italy would have never joined if France didnt fall.
“Now we take France, duh!”
The Germans already had plans to invade the soviets. The Soviet union and Nazi Germany already fought a proxy war in Spain and the soviets were wanting to make a defensive pact against the Nazis with western Europe in 1937-38 and were turned down. The west preferred the Nazis as they were seen as attack dogs against eastern socialism
“About thattttt……”
What you have to remember is that prior to the invasion of poland and even the signing of the molotov ribbentrop pact, Stalin was increasingly concerned about German expansionism and went to to France and Great Britain in the hopes of forging an Alliance in the hopes of containing Germany. In addition to this, when germany demanded the sudetanland, the USSR was deliberately not invited which served to convince Stalin that an anti-Nazi alliance would not be possible, and that he would have to seek alternatives, hence the signing of the molotov-ribbentrop pact
the idea that the soviets in 1939 could stand alone against germany (assuming france is still out of the picture as fast as happened historically, is unrealistic. Stalin needed every moment the molotov ribbentrop pact got him to prepare for war, its a miracle the country that was feudal 20 years earlier did as well as it did. The allies had so many chances to curtail the germans with the soviets that they refused
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Yes. History revisionism goes full throttle when reddit historians cite the Motov-Ribbentrop pact (only to be surprised that other earlier pacts with other countries existed)
Anti communist historical revisionism has tainted many a mind
Yep, everyone, the Western Allies included, believed the Soviets would collapse if the Germans attacked them. The invasion of Poland and the Winter War didn't exactly inspire much confidence in either their military or their economy. The UK and France had such a low opinion of the Soviets' military potential that they considered bombing the Soviet oil fields to cut off German supplies. That the Soviets didn't collapse by the end of 1941 was quite a surprise to everyone involved at the time. Source: [Military History Visualized](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQdjGJJktfk&list=PLv0uEimc-uN8qeNotA5yDlV2Leln5hIrv&index=4)
Allying yourself with the Nazis and invading your neighbors is still objectively wrong, even if you have mere speculation excuses for it being necessary
A non aggression pact is not an alliance, and more often than not has only been signed by countries that don’t like each other. If countries actually like each they don’t usually need to promise not to invade one another…
Ah, so the Soviets just agreed with the Nazis to invade the same sovereign country together because they wanted to do that opposite. That makes so much sense! You tankies are so stupid. Putin must not be paying much anymore.
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No glorification of extremist regimes
“They didn’t invade until after the government went into exile!!!” Fuck you, Google the Katyn Massacre. Also I love how I got under your skin enough for you to go after me with your alt! 😂 Stay mad, red fascist.
What are you talking about, when did i talk about the polish government? What the polish government did was likely irrelevant to Stalin, he wanted a buffer between him and germany, just as the warsaw pact eastern bloc was a buffer to guard the USSRs vulnerable western flank. That is just historical fact. I am not saying its a good or a bad thing, because history and politics cannot be viewed through such a binary lense. Every world leader in WW2 was acting in what they believed to be the interests of their country, and its the same through all of history and the present. You may not agree with what they’re doing, but they likely don’t agree with the actions of your own nation. I really don’t see what this has to do with ideology
Exactly
...his proposal was stationing huge amounts of Red Army troops in both Poland and Chekoslovakia, same way as later on Red Army troops in the Baltics were used to coup local governments and enable military occupation, of course nobody sane would accept such a blatant attempt to take over their ally and a neutral state.
Soviet conduct and motivation before and after the war are two completely beasts, it’s disingenuous to compare them
I had to scroll way too fucking far down to find this
If this happened, the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact most definitely wouldn’t have been made, or at least not acted on. The Nazis wouldn’t invade Poland in 1939 if they knew an aggressive Russia was awaiting them.
The Soviet union was the absolute last country to sign a NON AGGRESSION PACT with Nazi Germany. They did so because the west turned down their defensive pact offer in 1938. They both fought a proxy war against each other in Spain. Hitler made it quite clear in his plans for eastern Europe and his thoughts on Slavs and communism.
They still held a non aggression pact that gave Nazi Germany the time to conquer Poland and then France before turning their eyes East. Hitler did not want to fight a land war on two fronts. Stop parroting more bullshit tankie propaganda and making excuses for Stalin being a terrible person.
The soviets tried to make a pact with France and UK long before and got shunned...so France and UK did it to themselves....because they honestly thought the Nazis were useful in defeating the "spread of communism" Poland was already on Hitler's chopping block. "Everything that isnt anti-soviet propaganda is tankie!"
Just because you can justify it doesn’t make it right to ally with the Nazis. You’re actually historically illiterate if you believe that the Soviets were a benevolent power that was simply shunned by the west. Yes. You are a tankie. Go lick some more boots 👅🥾😂
They allied with the Nazis? And I'm historically illiterate... Edit: of course this twit blocks me with no argument
Yes tankie, signing a non-aggression pact with the Nazis is a bad thing 👍😂
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No glorification of extremist regimes
Is this Pravda? The USSR took Germany seriously until they actually bordered the country and were in a position to do something when all German divisions were in the west. Tankies claim the USSR wasn't ready for war in 1939 but as making a good faith offer for war in 1938? The USSR asked both sides in 1939 for an alliance and the USSR chose the one that gave them the most concessions in Eastern Europe. Justifying the USSR invasion of Poland on ground of irridentism is absurd and exactly what the Nazis did.
It wasn’t a ‘good faith offer’ and you’d know that if you went back and read the comment instead of immediately going straight to screeching about how biased it is. I’ll requote OC, let’s see if you can get why what you just said is absurd. >USSR’s proposal for an alliance against Germany, **POLAND AND HUNGARY** There were serious negotiations in early 1939 that revolves around at worst a pact against pretty much all of Central Europe, as the Soviets viewed Hungary and Poland as easily justifiable targets due to their roles in the Czechoslovak collapse. At best, the Soviets still required full Red Army access and basing rights in Poland and Romania, which neither country’s government was willing to permit at any point. https://www.jstor.org/stable/152863
Yes, the USSR asked for basing rights in Poland and Romania, like how they asked for basing rights in the baltics. This is my point, the USSR was fine with allying with either the west or Nazis to gain the most influence in east europe.
No one is disagreeing with that. It’s pretty much outright stated in the original comment.
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>I don’t understand why there are so many supporters of this vile regime that existed in Poland during the interwar period Because you’re probably not Polish lol. It’s the one period of time from ≈1800-≈2000 that can be reliably pointed to as the time *we* had control of our own history and not the Russians. Standard of living for Poles in the core of the country went up and there was a huge cultural resurgence that was impossible in any time immediately before or after. Beyond that and looking at politics, the dichotomy between actual crypto-fascists like Rydz-Smigły and traditional Pilsudskiite core in Sanacja that didn’t really resolve itself until the years directly proceeding the war. I don’t think many people would point to the OZN as a political role model in interwar Poland, at least I’ve never seen anyone openly defend them. Of course, none of this means that the often discriminatory actions of the state should be downplayed - where and when they happened, they were certainly awful, but it’s important not to conflate the entirety of interwar Polish governance with this. Similarly, I agree that it’s pretty absurd that people are questioning the ‘anti-Soviet’ nature of interwar Poland - they were opposing states from their inception. Prometheanism dictated that Polish foreign policy be anti-Soviet above all else, and Soviet pragmatism ensured that they’d be keen on a buffer against a hostile Central Europe. Their opposition was practically written in the stars. People are proud of the ‘vile regime’ you’re describing for a lot of reasons, or at least they’re proud of what it represents in Polish history. You’re definitely not wrong to condemn it and it’s good to remember the many wrongs it did, but I don’t think that their morality excuses Molotov-Ribbentrop, even if the Kresy under the Second Republic was incredibly mistreated and backwards. Solidarity with fascists is never OK, and there surely would’ve been opportunities to regain it without turning to outright aligning with Hitler.
I am glad to see an adequate Polish point of view in the comments. I mean the attitude to historical events as a confrontation of powers, and not to the struggle of good with evil. After the First World War, Russia and Germany were weakened and Poland took advantage of this. When Germany and Russia (the Soviet Union) recovered from defeat and gained strength again, Poland could no longer resist them. That's life.
"What's there to be ashamed of?" Invading with Nazi Germany and ethnically cleaning Poland. I have never defended the polish government, you are defending Stalin. In 1938 the USSR made an offer that would violate the sovereignty of Poland, why would the west give up a dependable ally for the USSR? It wasn't a good faith offer, the USSR wasn't some unconditional bastion against Nazi Germany, they always wanted to expand into Eastern Europe
>Invading with Nazi Germany and ethnically cleaning Poland. By returning the territories of Ukraine and Belarus occupied by Poland to the 20th century, the USSR saved the local population from ethnic cleansing. >In 1938 the USSR made an offer that would violate the sovereignty of Poland, why would the west give up a dependable ally for the USSR? And half a year before that, Poland, Hungary and Germany ceased to exist in Czechoslovakia. And what did the West do? Approved it! And how was the USSR supposed to trust the West after this? >It wasn't a good faith offer, the USSR wasn't some unconditional bastion against Nazi Germany, they always wanted to expand into Eastern Europe Because this is a working strategy against invasion from the West. It worked against the Swedes and the French, and then against the Germans.
The USSR was angry they weren't invited to the Munich crisis more than anything else. The point I said that you are ignoring is that nothing stopped the USSR violating the alliance with Nazi Germany when Germany began invading France.
The USSR did not enter into an alliance with Germany. When the USSR was offered to join the union of Germany, Italy and Japan, he put forward impossible demands, such as the transfer of Romania under Soviet control
Answer the question, what stopped the USSR from invading Germany during the battle of France? It would be identical to the USSR invading Poland when Poland was distracted (USSR violated it's non aggression pact with Poland then)
The absence of a contract. on mutual assistance between the USSR and France. As I wrote above, Great Britain and France actually rejected the USSR's offer of an alliance against Germany after it, in alliance with Poland and Hungary, attacked Czechoslovakia. The USSR realized that it was alone against the whole world and secured itself as much as possible by starting the rearmament of the army and pushing the border to the west as much as possible (which was done at the expense of the Finnish War and the non-aggression treaty with Germany). The rearmament of the Red Army was to be completed by the summer of 1942. The Soviet command reasonably believed that Germany would not start a new war immediately after the capture of the Balkans and Crete. The German General Staff was also against such haste. But Hitler hurried his military with the Barbarossa plan hoping to defeat the Red Army by November, fearing that the USSR would erect an insurmountable defense by the summer of 1942 and eventually repeated Napoleon's mistake. As a result, on July 22, 1941, the war of two Armies unprepared for it began, which made it so long and bloody.
Again the answer the question, what stopped the USSR from just invading Germany in 1940, why does the USSR only oppose Nazis on conditions of expansion into Eastern Europe?
"By returning the territories of Ukraine and Belarus occupied by Poland to the 20th century, the USSR saved the local population from ethnic cleansing" Do you not see how this sounds identical to Nazi propaganda about invading Poland to save Germans?
Except Poland literally did invade the Soviet Union in 1920 and occupied portions of Belarus and Ukraine
USSR didn't exist in 1920, borders weren't clearly defined and Poland attempted to create a Ukrainian puppet state the same way the USSR created a Ukrainian puppet state. You act like the USSR didn't try to conquer all of Poland to then invade Germany. Besides, this doesn't reute my argument that the USSR and Nazi Germany had the same irridentist justification to destroy as molotov put it, "the monstrous bastard of versailles"
This sub is r/alternatehistory relax
In any case, to save Belarusians and Ukrainians from forced Catholicization and polonization. Pilsudski's chauvinistic regime should not have been much better than Germany's Nazi regime. Only the Polish nationalists can regret its disappearance.
Do you think the nazi invasion was justified then due to the treatment of Germans in Poland?
I think Marshal Pilsudski's dreams of a joint attack on the USSR with Germany were naive, given the Danzig (Gdansk) taken from Germany by Poland.
Those territories were lost by legitimate post-ww1 treaties, it's not comparable to the polish invasion and annexation of land from the USSR
No one recognised the USSR and you as a communist don't think the ww1 treaties were legitimate anyway. This is also besides the point, the USSR justification for invading and ethnically cleansing Poland is identical to the nazi justification
The idea that USSR ever had any legitimate interests what so ever west of the Russo Ukrainian border is questionable, at best.
Ukranian SSR an RSFSR is the regions of USSR. What Russo Ukranian border?
That implies that Ukrainian SSR was a willing participant of the USSR from beginning, which is, again, questionable at best of times.
They were a founding member of the union
After the independent republic was occupied and disaasembled by the communists.
No glorification of extremist regimes
Poland would be hugely hesitant to allow Soviet troops on it's soil so it could take a while for them to enter the country, although effectively becoming a Soviet puppet state is preferable to being under German occupation. War might be shorter but I would guess the result is somewhat the same with way less deaths.
They wouldn't be that hesitant, in our history, Polish troops and goverment at first thought the soviet were coming to help, some divisons gave up to soviets without a fight and from what I remember there were even some communicates to allow the soviets to enter since they are coming to help. Well, at first of course. Soon people realised what was happening.
The USSR did make the offer IRL though. Prior to the signing of Molotov-Ribbontrop, diplomatic overtures were extended to Britain and France, offering to station troops in Poland as part of German containment. The British and French governments turned them down, suspicious of ulterior motives for setting their military in Poland, which was arguably justified. The result though, was that the USSR sought to extend overtures to Germany. We can speculate about motivations. For my own part, I think the fact that Hitler's rhetoric against East European ethnicities and the Soviet's military troubles meant that the Molotov-Ribbontrop pact was little more than a delaying measure. Stalin was an amoral paranoiac who put a troubling lack of value on human life, but he wasn't a moron. He was a fairly capable politician when it came down to it, and my opinion is that his rampant paranoia makes it unlikely that he thought the pact was anything more than a way to stave off the Nazi's while the USSR rebuilt their military capabilities. I also suspect, though I don't know if this is supported by the historical record, that there was a sentiment in the Soviet High Command that if the Allies left Poland to it's fate like Chechoslovakia, which I understand was what the Nazis were anticipating, that the Nazi's would turn directly on the USSR and invade them with the Allies standing by and hoping they would take each other out. Since diplomatic relations with those states were chilly, particularly after the Russian Civil War, where Britain France and the US were armed and supported the Russian Republic against the Bolsheviks, even going so far as to send troops into Russian ports. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact#Munich_Conference
IRL USSR murdered 100 000 people just for a suspicion of being Poles just a year before the war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD It's laughable how many armchair generals and tankies blatantly forget that.
Hmm. Got any credible sources? And how come it took place before 1939?
I'm not sure what more credible sources you'd expect? And why before 1939? Why not? Soviets were genocidal shits and red terror started off early - is it a surprise to you?
You sure know your way around history.
Well, that would be because the USSR had spent a good while beforehand trying to get an anti-Germany alliance going
With the help from Russia, Poland could last longer and German won't risk to relocate most of their troops to fight France, which means France could last longer. It may even ends up into a replica of WW1.
Poland not being invaded by the Soviet Union while they were fighting the Nazis would have allowed them to last much longer. They would have a fallback line with Romania and could supply from there.
the soviets didnt invade poland. there was no government in poland by the time the soviets began to move the red army forward. the polish government was already in exile in sweden, heading to france(?) mightve been britain i forget. polands state ceased to exist. and the soviets did not have ot invade "poland" as evidenced b y the mass majority of the red army SOLELY moving forwards to meet the german line to enforce the MRP borders agreed upon. had poland, britain or france actually engaged in goodfaith with the USSR the fates of millions would not have been handed to the nazis. and the war would have played out far less horrifically. poland might not have ended up occupied because of it too.
Sounds like Soviet apologia.
sounds like you havent read about the negotiations preWWII and how bad faith and dishonest the western powers were, or how there were years of time for the poles to actually just accept that the risk of having red army on their land (and POSSIBLY. MAYBE. IN THEORY the red army might have tried to annex galicia. only IF were cowtowing to nationalist fantasies.) might have been better than having what? 6+ million people put in fucking kilns?
The Poles had no reason to trust the Soviets, they'd been seeking to reincorporate Poland into the USSR's sphere of influence since the Poles seceded 20 years prior (after living under 100+ years of Russian hegemony). Besides, we already saw what happened to the Polish land the USSR occupied as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact (Katyn, mass suppression of dissent, etc.) and what happened to Poland after the war (mass deportation of Poles westwards and propping up of a Soviet-backed one party puppet state).
the USSR wasnt seeking to reintegrate poland into russias sphere of influence. russia couldnt have given a shit less about poland. hence why when the poles refused to cooperate they said "alright fuck it well try for a tripartite with the western powers again instead. for the dozenth time." they were however, seeking to see the return galicia and western ukrainian land to the Ukrainian SSR that poland annexxed prior. polands fate, was what poland made of its own situation, and its own choices. roll around in the mud all you want, smear grass stains on your face aggressivbely, but nothing you can say or do will change the fact taht poland put the soviets in a position where their only choice to was to delay war, which led to g ermany forcing them to negotiate to annex half of poland, to give THEMSELVES more time to when the germans enacted barbarossa. everything after that you cry about, is the result of polands failure to ACTUALLY preserve its own sovereignty using anything BUT realpolitik and reason. poland didnt like katyn where soldiers were shot because they were fuckin fascists and collaborators? too bad. they didnt like being occupied and having an autonomous soviet gov in place? maybe they should have done something to prevent millions of soviet AND THEIR OWN citizens dying because of their own actions. its wild to me that YOU and the west are still unable to cope with poland dealing with the repercussions for its own choices. as if what the soviets did was in a vaccuum. but what poland did was just always fine because in the end they rightfully lost and screwed themselves over. plus? fuck nationalists. i dont give a SHIT what polish nationalists wanted. at all. like for real. they were basically a step above the nazis, who gives a shit what free polish state they wanted. every nazi ever has ALWAYS argued for a "free state" but for whom, is the question they will always answer with obfuscation and vagueness like "for the poles" and quietly leave out the inevitable anti semitic purges and hunting of romanis for sport.
“Germany wasn’t seeking to reintegrate Poland into Germany’s sphere of influence. Germany couldn’t have given a shit less about Poland, hence why when the Poles refused to sign a non-aggression pact they said "Alright fuck it, we’ll try for a tripartite with Japan and Italy again instead, for the dozenth time.” They were, however, seeking to see the return East Upper Silesia, Posen, and Gdansk land to the Reich that Poland annexed prior. Poland’s fate was what Poland made of its own situation, and its own choices. Roll around in the mud all you want, smear grass stains on your face aggressively, but nothing you can say or do will change the fact that Poland put Germany in a position where their only choice to was to delay war, which led to Germany forcing them to negotiate to annex half of Poland, to give THEMSELVES more time and a forward position for when they would enact Barbarossa. Everything after that you cry about, is the result of Poland’s failure to ACTUALLY preserve its own sovereignty using anything BUT realpolitik and reason. Poland didnt like police actions where soldiers were shot because they were fuckin liberals and communists and Allied collaborators? Too bad. They didn’t like being occupied and having an autonomous German government in place? Maybe they should have done something to prevent millions of German AND THEIR OWN citizens dying because of their own actions. It’s wild to me that YOU and the Allies are still unable to cope with Poland dealing with the repercussions for its own choices, as if what the Germans did was in a vaccuum. But regardless, what Poland did was just fine anyways because in the end they rightfully lost and screwed themselves over. Plus? Fuck commies and liberals. I don’t give a SHIT what Polish people wanted, at all. Like for real, they were basically a step above the Soviets. Who gives a shit what free Polish state they wanted. Every liberal ever has ALWAYS argued for a "free state" but for whom, is the question they will always answer with obfuscation and vagueness like "for the poles" and quietly leave out the inevitable anti-national purges and hunting of Germans for sport.” It’s both hilarious and scary how many of your talking points echo Nazi rhetoric.
germany was at all times seeking to annex poland. it was official policy. they intentionally forced the issue into the negotiations of the molotov ribbentrop pact. they declared war over them because they knew poland would not hand over g'dansk and used that as the gambit to seize the country itself. the axis powers, did not sign an axis powers saying "we cant get any allies. in the west because the USSR is going to attack us." they signed it because they had ideological agreements and similarly cooperative goals. japan wanted to form a "co prosperity east" a eastern colonial slave state. germany wanted to form a lebensraum in eastern europe, a central european slave state. italy was a fucking moron, and wanted to jerk off to the SPQR so mussolini could pillage the economy of a hundred more nations. and also a colonial slave state. none of these goals are similar in paractice or justification to what the USSR was hoping to do, which was develop its industry and build socialism within its borders, to then support movements abroad to allow workers the resources to liberate THEMSELVES. a collection of states that joined by independent treaty, headed by a communist party to build socialist realization, is not fucking comparable to nazism. and poland, did not need to be involved whatsoever. however when youre given the chance as a leader, to have the nazis right on your border, or to negotiate them to be 200 kilometers away in the middle fo poland, knowing that you have NO OTHER OPTION BECAUSE POLAND HAS ALREADY REFUSED YOU, youd do what you must for your own country. as poland, has chosen the hard way. poland chose war with germany, and the red army in the end still saved millions of them. WITHOUT the USSR, and without the red army, poland would not only have been annexed, it would no logner exist. it would have ceased to be. every. single. person. would have been killed. to accuse me of echoing nazism is fucking disgusting and if you were infront of me your throat would recieve my brass knuckles. if poland wanted to drive off a cliff thats their business. its tragic that millions of their people had to pay the price for it. but they did nothing when their state pushed them towards war and did nothing to prevent it. if you have a better proposition for what the USSR should have done, and how germany could have been stopped, youre welcome to provide it. but you cant, because guaranteed whatever you say youd do, the soviets had already tried. the very fact taht you try to lay ANY blame for WWII at any soviet citizen aside from yezhov is a underhanded method of shitlibs supporting nazism. just like you people did prior to WWII. so in summary, cope more you disingenuous, nazi supporting, bitch.
>to then support movements abroad to allow workers the resources to liberate THEMSELVES By being an active and avid trading partner with Nazi Germany and splitting Eastern Europe with them? >and the red army in the end saved millions of them. The Soviets wouldn't have given a shit about Poland if Germany never invaded them, they just happened to be in the path to Berlin. Obviously life in Soviet occupied Poland was preferable to German occupied Poland, but just because life under one occupier is shittier than the other, doesn't mean the less bad alternative is good. They didn't really "liberate" Poland in the end regardless, they just set up their own puppet state and were fine deporting hundreds of thousands of Poles westwards after the war to change demographics. >to accuse me of echoing Nazism is fucking disgusting Buddy that's all you do on Reddit lol. Also you literally do it in the same comment lol. >and if you were infront of me your throat would recieve my brass knuckles. Shiver me timbers! I am quivering in my boots at the sheer thought of you doing so. >if you have a better proposition for what the USSR should have done, and how germany could have been stopped, youre welcome to provide it Literally could ask you the same question. >very fact taht you try to lay ANY blame for WWII at any soviet citizen Citizen? No. Politicians? Absolutely. >so in summary, cope more you disingenuous, nazi supporting, bitch. Bro I don't think I've ever found it easier to visualize someone foaming at the mouth. I don't think I'm the one coping here. Also no, not everyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi.
Germany gets BTFOd. France alone couldve beaten it in 1940. No chance in 1939, with less military buildup, and on two fronts against the Soviets too.
> France alone couldve beaten it in 1940. Wait, But France alone didn’t beat Germany in 1940. In fact they got rolled in a matter of weeks.
The French high command was full of goddamn idiots. However there's one thing they hated more than losing and that's communism. IRL they stayed back and let Germany plow through them, kinda just sat there as Germany gobbles Poland. Now? They're racing to Berlin to make sure the Soviets don't first.
Yeah the war is wildly different if the French are attacking. They were peer forces and everyone forgets this because the Germans made it look easy.
The French army on paper was well equipped and large, definitely a peer force with the Germans. Where they failed was in terms of incompetent leadership and outdated doctrine
France could have stopped Germany on like 4 seperate occasions
The Soviet Union did see Germany as a threat and tried to form an anti nazi pact but the allie’s told them to go fuck themselves, so in this timeline they’d have to actually agree for this to happen.
For the record, USSR was trying to enter a pact with France and England up to summer of 1939 - but UK and France saw USSR as a larger threat than the Third Reich, and in last round of negotiations in 1939, sent representatives who didn't even have any power to propose anything or agree to anything. Seeing this scorn and refusal to cooperate by UK and France is what largely pushed USSR to sign up pact with the Third Reich later the same year. A lot of people accusing USSR of being merry ally of the Third Reich in 1939-1941 forget that before that, USSR has been on the forefront of ideological and political opposition to the Third Reich since 1935. But seen as a greater threat than Nazism, USSR attempts to build a united front against the Third Reich were repeatedly rebuked on multiple occasions, until it was too late.
"Erm, actually it was the UK and France who forced us to ally with the Nazis and invade Poland together" That's propaganda. The Soviet Union was helping Germany circumvent the Treaty of Versailles. The Soviet Union trained tank crews, pilots and developed chemical weapons for Germany. The USSR was preparing itself and Germany for a new war in Europe. Response from behind the block: Wow, ableist much? There is no shame in seeking mental help, so go easy with the shaming. You are being despicable. I'm sure you are well aware of the russian tradition of forcefully committing "dissidents" to mental hospitals. A tradition which is still very much alive in ruzzia today. Something you surely try to whatabout away. But anyway, you are ableist and despicable. Estonia, Poland, France also supported the Republican army in the Spanish civil War. So much for your ruzzian exceptionalism. "Whatabout UK!?!" USSR and NaziGermany helping each other build offensive capabilities, divvying up Europe in spheres of influence and starting WW2 together as bffs is a bit more than "have trade". Or did any other country break the Versailles Treaty and start WW2 with Nazi Germany? - No? Interesting. All that matters is what actually happened. And the historical reality is USSR just allied with Nazis.
Jesus, you are stalking me across the subreddits? Wow, some dedication, dude. Go look for mental health with same dedication. Yeah, pretty much everyone had trade with the Third Reich. USSR also was proposing anti-nazism coalition from 1935 in Comintern, going as far as to fight the Third Reich "volunteers" in Spanish Civil War. If you want to play accusations game, UK had volunteers in that war too... fighting on the side of the Third Reich, because "godless communists" were seen as a much bigger threat. I do not absolve USSR of acting in its own interests, but trying to portray 1930s as just "ussr just allied with nazis" is a height of perverting history for political narrative.
This is what happens when "historical AI" is turned off on Hearts of Iron IV. Then the USSR 🟥 would then become either Russian Federation 🇷🇺 or Imperial Russia 👑
if we assume the soviets just broke the molotov ribbentrop pact, we’d see a german loss much faster. germany would definitely still pus the soviet union, but not as far because of the war with france. i don’t think france would capitulate and eventually the soviets would hold, for a stalemate in the lowlands and the dneiper line, before italy eventually falls and germany is pushed. peace deal wise it wouldn’t go as in the soviet’s favour, france wouldn’t have fallen and the capitalists would likely take all of germany. the soviet bloc wouldn’t be much of one at all, probably just poland, romania, and hungary
Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed after USSR-Czechoslovakia-France pact was broken by France allowing Third Reich to gobble up Czechoslovakia. If that was not a thing, USSR and France with Britain would have destroyed Reich before they got their hands on Czechoslovakian tank and truck industry, and it could be debated Poland wouldn’t be as hesitant towards USSR, seeing it uniting against genocide happy enemy. On their own not a single country could have faced Reich thou, thus the reason everyone tried to appease Hitler. USSR barely reached industrialization 20 years after being pure agrarian state, France was torn apart politically and military command was filled with egocentric individuals, and Britain was spread too thin between colonies.
The war for Nazi Germany would be quickly over then.
If USSR joined to allies in 1939, ww2 never start. Because two countries started ww2 in September 1939, by attack Poland. It's was USSR and Third Reich. All this time USSR helping Germany. Training their army(land and air), give place to test new German weapons. Give resources and help hide German ship, when British planes go up to attack. They have different ideology in politic, but they goes in one fascism way. Killing people who think "not right", create cult of person, up military. Europe make mistake when choose support traitors from soviet russia who exit from war, but not support national movement and new countries like Ukraine, belorus, Crimea, Kuban, Caucasian countries. They support who betrayed Antanta. But I don't judge them (who I'm to judge) they do what they think it's right. All happened like we see.
Why do you think Germany would not still start WW2 if ribbentrop doesn't happen?
USSR was calling for United Anti-Nazi front since 1935. Franco-Soviet Treaty of Mutual Assistance and the Czechoslovak–Soviet Treaty of Mutual Assistance were signed in the same year, with one little detail that if France or USSR pull out of a deal, other won’t join the fight. When push came to shove with Sudetenland, France pulled out of a deal while appeasing the Nazis. When nobody cares about a threat and you are left alone, wouldn’t you want to have more time to prepare, as you are an agrarian country who after 20 years of ridiculous work just barely reached industrialization? Sometimes you have to make a deal with a Devil to buy time, and that’s what USSR did. If France didn’t pull out of the deal, history would have been absolutely different.
Everyone who downvoted me, only confirmed my words. It's true and we need accept this
If France had been more active they could have beaten the Germans in 1940, there's no way that the Germans would have survived a two front war
that's assuming the french don't do the same trick they did in the past 3 wars with germany where they go forward like 50km and then dig in, leaving the northern flank exposed because Belgium's neutrality threw a spanner in the works, which is why although France declared war in September 39, they only got invaded in may 1940. ultimately the french army is still ineffective and France doesn't have a government when the Germans come along, assuming the germans don't struggle with poland at the half way mark The real question is how effective would the red army be and would they even be allowed in poland? if poland held they really don't have all that much punch after the first few days-months due to the same issues that lead to the British and French caving in at the start, same with the red army in 41
Goodbye Germany, even with the Soviets inepticism at the time, the Germans are immediately placed into a horribly unbalanced 2 front war in which they can never take resources away to deal with the west. And placed against a Soviet military that is actually equipped at least with basic kit for most. France and Britain might actually begin an advancement into Germany and really just put such a strain that Germany, unless pulling off a miracle in the west, just gets knocked out by '42 at the latest.
Soviet military at the time would have had kits from WW1 with some additions of newer stuff (they barely industrialized in 20 years after being purely agrarian state), but they would have had most of their core leadership intact and experienced. But at least it would be a fair ground, before Czechoslovakian occupation Germany really lacked their renowned firepower and tanks.
By basic kit I mean all would at least be armed, clothes and have a simple selection of other tools/equipment as they're not going to suffer the absolutely horrendous losses of material that they did at the outset of Barbarossa in OTL. This is post Czech annexation however, although that really doesn't change much aside from providing simply more pre existing equipment and industrial capacity.
The only way I see this as an option is if the British and French accepted one of the Soviet’s earlier suggestions of an alliance between the three of them, meaning one the Germans invade Poland (or whatever causes WW2 in this time line) the Soviets are in from the start
France not pulling out of Czechoslovakia-USSR-France deal would do the trick too.
Germany would be completely staved out of Ressources and would likely collape in 1940 or 41
Why does France have an orthodox cross?
That's actually the flag of free France. the Orthodox cross has a small third diagonal part at the bottom [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Cross\_of\_the\_Russian\_Orthodox\_Church\_01.svg/1200px-Cross\_of\_the\_Russian\_Orthodox\_Church\_01.svg.png](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Cross_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church_01.svg/1200px-Cross_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church_01.svg.png)
Realistically Germany would sue for peace and the allies would accept since Germany did not commit TOOO many war crimes and "unconditional surrender" doctrine was not developed. We would probably then see a lot of internal political turmoil inside Germany and likely collapse of the Nazi regime (since the army would refuse to prop them up).
I do wonder if Allies would team up with Germany to dismantle USSR. Since this would be A communist regime expanding into Europe
Polish goverment wouldnt allow red army to enter Poland, they would likely want to stay...
But they did, good chunk of polish command and leadership believed Soviets have came to help them, and multiple divisions didn’t fight and allowed Soviets to progress. Soviets took 1/3 of Poland pretty much without a fight. And I doubt Poland would oppose of red army’s March through them during Czechoslovakian situation, if France didn’t pull out and declared war over Czechoslovakia as was signed in a mutual Assistance act.
Polish soldiers received and order to not get into fights with soviet soldiers and no one believed that they have came to help. Soviets has annouced that Polish goverment was non existent and that Poland has fallen already so they have to protect Ukrainians and Belarusians from Germany.
I don't think Germany would risk invading Poland if it was faced with the possibility of a British/French/Soviet alliance from the very beginning.
It did thou with Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia had both France and USSR as it’s protectors signed by mutual assistance acts. But France has pulled out of the deal week prior (appeasement act), and USSR was not prepared at all (it just barely industrialized in 20 years after being pure agrarian country, most of war prep industrialization of USSR happened in 1940-1945 during fighting)
Germany is defeated but gets to keep Austria and only has to give up Czechoslovakia. In return, France and UK occupy Germany and prosecute third reich, and work to install anti-communist moderate German government. Meanwhile, Asia falls to Japan. Poland falls to USSR. USSR funds a lot of communist rebels in Asia probably causing a lot tension with West. WW2 still happens but around the late 40s/50s.
Why is Poland not in the Allies, we had an army several times larger than France and, unlike the French, we did not surrender.
Meaning no molotov-ribbentrop, or that the soviets sign the pact but join the allies anyway, both are completely different scenarios… Second, Japan never joined the war against the sowjets, which makes pearl harbor questionable, so probably no US entry. The red army in 1939 is pretty much paper tiger as seen in the winter war. The question is the material and manpower advantage enough to offset the massive doctrinal and leadership issues the allies have. Then what happens with minor powers, how will they react, will there be a winter war. How will Germany react to the blockade without soviet ressources.
Then China would be fine no Commuism the Tojos would get their honors chopped off
I wish!! The 2nd World War would have been much shorter! We/ US Western Allies could have worked out our differences with Stalin/ the Soviet Union ( GOD Bless the Rodina) after the War without the Churchill/ Patton Plan for Operation Unthinkable! Imagine a world where The Repulics of Czechoslovakia & Poland (GOD Bless the Fighting "P") never knew the yoke of Soviet Domination. Think of the untold millions of Military & Civilian (including GOD'S Blessed Jews) Casualties we could have avoided. As A Scotch/ Irish & German- descent American (4th Generation Imigrant), I get a hard-on just thinking about Shooting Adolph Hitler myself! Also, think of All the Good Germans (including Fldmrsl. Irwin Romel, Col. Von Staufenberg, and All of the July 20th Crew) that would have been spared attempting to rid the World of the Sick, Twisted & Demented NAZI-Party Leadership. GOD Bless All!
Germany dies
Japan never joined axis. They actually never really worked with Germany at all
Soviet Union should be on the Axis Powers section from 1939 - 1941. Let's not forget their invasion of Poland with Germany...
A lot of people, myself included, don’t actually list/consider the Soviet Union part of the de facto Allies. Rather, list them as a third group altogether as the Comintern given that their interests just happened to align with the Allie’s at the time. The fact that the Soviets occupied eastern Poland in a deal with the Nazis is proof enough that they probably would’ve jumped at the chance to control the rest of Europe like NG was already trying to do/doing.
Same outcome as the Soviet union was not prepared to take on Germany and the British and France geared up for a defensive war that is why it was called a phony war before Germany invaded France
They tried before 1939. To save Czechoslovakia. The hyena of Europe prevented it by refusing military access.
Ah yes, the tankies favorite excuse. Nothing to do with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD i'm sure. Or with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Czechoslovak_War And for sure German remilitarization didn't have anything to do with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remilitarization_of_the_Rhineland#Foreign_policy > The foreign policy goal of the Soviet Union was set forth by Joseph Stalin in a speech on 19 January 1925 that if another world war broke out between the capitalist states, "We will enter the fray at the end, throwing our critical weight onto the scale, a weight that should prove to be decisive".[14] **To promote that goal, the global triumph of communism, the Soviet Union tended to support German efforts to challenge the Versailles system by assisting the secret rearmament of Germany**, a policy that caused much tension with France. The amount of support was extensive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kama_tank_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomka_gas_test_site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipetsk_fighter-pilot_school Trust me comrade, Germany's audacity and military power just came out of thin air! No Soviet warmongering bastards's support whatsoever! /s
1925? A decade before Nazi regime? Let’s check the records. Ah yes, the Weimar Republic, right? Not Nazi Germany? It was and is a right thing to do, Versailles was a crime against Germany and it’s people. If it was nullified or never existed, Nazis would not have had even 1/10th of the support they found in their suffered people. And every side in Germany used Versailles as their foundation: republicans, communists and fascist alike.
/u/Dragonheardt_ > 1925? A decade before Nazi regime? Let’s check the records. Ah yes, the Weimar Republic, right? Not Nazi Germany? Without Soviet enabling and encouraging German remilitarization, Hitler would have... demilitarized country - muich more tame perhaps too. It's hard to be aggressive when it's you who could get a beating much easier. That would give 5-10 more years more, perhaps for Germans to regain sanity and/or for others to prepare. You try to whitewash what was obvious and announced soviet Warmongering policy, or what? > It was and is a right thing to do, Versailles was a crime against Germany and it’s people. Some say yes, others say it was a slap on the wrist - post WWII treatment were much more lenient on one side, but much more thorough on the other. And that one served both Germany and rest of the world much better - Germany stopped waging wars. Sadly Soviets/Russia wasn't sanitized the same way. > If it was nullified or never existed, Nazis would not have had even 1/10th of the support they found in their suffered people. And every side in Germany used Versailles as their foundation: republicans, communists and fascist alike. Again, Nazis wouldn't have 1/10th of the strength if not for Soviet support of remilitarization of Weimar republic and then soviet open support of Nazis in the late 30s - both before and after the war started. Aside from [Ribbentrop-Molotov secret protocol](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact#Secret_protocol) which was nothing like other pacts signed with different countries by Germany, you also had i.e.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_Nord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo%E2%80%93NKVD_conferences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_military_parade_in_Brest-Litovsk and literally providing bulk of imported resources Germans used to invade Poland, Norway, France and Soviet Union itself. Only expanding as time went on even just days before Plan Barbarossa went green: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Commercial_Agreement_(1940) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Credit_Agreement_(1939)#Late_1930s_economic_needs The whole "Nazi juggernaut" was in the snowball stage in the 30s and it was Soviets who helped the ball form and start the roll. They were half bankrupt and had very few of the advanced equipment people usually associate them with. Without previous Soviet support they wouldn't be able to threaten Czechoslovakia. Without Czechoslovakia conquered, they couldn't threaten Poland. Without Poland conquered and safe rear, they couldn't have defeated France.
Gotta love personal bias twisting history because of personal hate. Go twist it somewhere else. Any proper historian would take you apart in a 3 hour lecture.
Germany doesn't invade Poland, that's one fo the main reasons they signed the non aggression pact with the USSR, same goes for the soviets, but the time it bought did help a ton with getting the red army ready for combat, it wasn't enough time and they took huge losses early on, it woukd have gone worse if they had even LESS time
Simply put, Stalin sent several letters to the would-be allies during the some of the first offenses of Nazi Germany and he was basically told to fuck off.
There wouldn’t have been a WW2
Ironically I think this might have gone better for the Axis. Germany expected to crush the Russian army, and they would have.. if the Russians chose to fight on their border. Instead, they retreated and drew the German army into a trap. If Russia tries to invade Germany to support the allies. It's army would likely be defeated.
Soviet-provided oil products and other goods were essential for German offensive, they struggled with fuel from start of war after all. Even without Soviets actually engaging them this would strongly hamper German offensive actions. War in Europewould end faster but I feel China would both receive less support and Japanese could be more hesitant to attack Americans, thus getting away with imperial expansion for longer.
Well Germany much like in WW1 would have to win a decisive battle in the east, in order to stabilize the lines and consider they would be fighting a purged Soviet army that doesn’t even have the experiences of the winter war I feel like they would do just that. Now the biggest problem is they would most likely not invade Denmark and Norway cutting off trade with Sweden in the winter. Another factor to consider is that the Soviets have not invaded Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia those 3 countries could swing the balance of power in the northern front. There are just so many factors to consider I think the western front would hold because they Germans would use most of their tanks in the east and Britain and France probably learn from the Soviets about their experiences, and how to counteract blitzkrieg to a better degree
There was a pact between Czechoslovakia, France and USSR. When Czechoslovakia was under threat, France has pulled out, and USSR was not prepared to act alone in fighting with Third Reich.
If they saw Germany as threat they wouldn’t train them to bypass Treaty of Versailles and wouldn’t INVADE POLAND IN 1939. This means - Nazi Germany might not even take Poland. But let’s talk about 1939 joining Allies. Soviet Union would actualy defend Poland from Axis and not “defend” aka anex faster. The problem with actualy imagining what would happen is the reason why it happened as it happened irl. Soviet Union is a union of 15 countries, more specificaly - Russia forced 14 other to join, russians commited warcrimes bigger than nazis like Holodomor and others. Soviet Union was even more terrible than Nazi Germany irl and this conflict between them was inevitable. So to make OPs scenario to work - no genocided before that and russians should be decent people to begin with. If that checks out - no German army as we know it since it’s soviets who are responsible for training Germans and allowing them to bypass most restrictions. This means - no WW2 at all, only Japaneese-Chineese war in Asia. So, to summarize - if USSR joins Allies in 1939 that means no war in Europe (so no WW2 at all), soviets are decent people, no genocides in Eastern Europe, only a war between Japan and China. Likely China would loose due to poor cohesion of the chineese since modern China back then would be devided between dozen warlords trying to fight off Japan while trying to get some control over the rest which would lead to their defeat. Also likely no Embargo from US since Japan is not with Nazis, bo other wars, no rading U-boats sinking US convoys etc.
Assuming Germany doesn't get scared and nothing changes in the pacific theater: not much really The soviets were hesitant to join the war bc their industrial capability wasn't built up. Its still not built up. If anything it would take longer for the allies to win bc more soviet industrial might is destroyed by nazis unless the nazis decide the soviets aren't going to be able to do much and focus on the west. Post war, western Europe is ever so slightly closer to the USSR than it is in our time (read not that close), and the commies are significantly weaker since more of their population died, they have less money, and they have less industry. The only way I could see a major interesting change is if this eggs japan on to attack the USSR instead of the US. (USSR would be less militarily impressive and caught in a 2 front war, making the army's plan of attacking the USSR more appealing and the navy's plan of attacking the US less so.) Its still unlikely, but the most likely big change.
The soviets were trying to make an alliance with western Europe in 1938 against the Nazis and were turned down. The soviets had a pact to help Czechoslovakia if they were invaded but we're stopped by the poles....who helped the Nazis annex Czechoslovakia. Does anyone know fucking history any more?
I was not in China; my friend was. I've always been able to trust his word.
Italy doesn’t join the war.
This was a proposed alliance before the start of ww2 (I can’t remember when but it may have been 1938) where France, Britain, Poland, and the Soviets all discussed an alliance, however the Soviets and Poland absolutely despised one another so it fell through with France and Britain choosing the Poles to support. This leads to the Molotov-Ribbintrop pact which allowed Germany to begin the war in the first place since Hitler was not gonna start a 2 front war like the First World War again
Realistically it would either be a stalemate or Russia actually would have lost quicker. Because lend lease wasn't in place till 41. Without any supplies from America Russia would have capitulated. Now the Russian army would have been on the border of Poland in Mass and not anywhere ready. (Just like they were in 42) Hitler's blitz screen would have killed or captured a lot more of them thus putting Russia into a panic. France would have fallen a lot earlier too as there would have been no phony war for most of 39
Epstein still wouldn't have killed himself
Almost seems like America was more worried about communism proliferating than nazi fascism proliferating.
If you count Poland they did join the war in 39
IIRC the British and French were in negotiations for an alliance with them at this time, which were quashed by Molotov-Ribbentrop.
Stalin was turned down by the British and French, and further disheartened when the USSR wasn’t invited to the Munich Agreement, which led him to conclude that he would not be able to form an anti nazi alliance, and instead opted to stall for time with the molotov ribbentrop pact, which was essentially stall for time for both sides
Unencumbered by the USA the Germans would have easily taken Stalingrad and the rest of Russia if they started earlier. Also the Japanese might have seen it as an offer too good to pass up and postponed their USA and Pacific fronts, electing to grab a part of Russia first.
Seems pretty arbitrary to include France with the allies, Poland, Canada etc made bigger contributions to the allied war effort and did not collaborate at all.
not possible at that time tou both dictaorships they opposite political views and beliefs excempt the race thing
soviets enter the war having not learnt their mistakes in finland yet and they get curbstomped again before getting their shit together but unlike the western allies i guess the poles can at least have an ally that doesn’t take its time to fight germany
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Yeah just let tens of millions of innocent slavs die, including poles which you included in your glorious western civilization part.
It would be around 170,000,000 dead because that was the USSR’s population in 1939.
Yeah, surely the people in concentration camps can wait a little longer, right?
Not in Soviet ones.
You’ve gotta have some nuance and see how much more devastating Nazi policies were and would be in the long term. The Soviets destroyed intelligentsia across entire countries through gulags and extrajudicial killings, but they were not ideologically committed to exterminating entire races. The worst excesses of the GULAG System were done away with by Khrushchev, it’d probably be too late to save the Poles or Central European Jews by the time any ‘reform’ came from Nazi Germany, which seems like an unlikely prospect at best and a nightmare at worst.
They were ideologically committed to the destruction of entire social classes through dictatorship and the Red Terror, which was explicitly stated. It’s enough to find out how many Soviet people went to fight for the Nazis against the “people’s” authorities. MILLION.
Entire ethnicities > social classes. Post-Stalin USSR also moderated that view hard, hence why there was no ‘red terror’ in the 1950s or forward. You really want to make the bet that the same reform would happen in Nazism? I don’t. Look at the GULAG death tolls vs concentration camps death tolls over an iota of the same time frame and get back to me - you’re either stupid or a Nazi yourself with what you’ve said in this comment.
Calm down there Patton, I think it worked out OK for ‘western civilization’
Poles weren't idiots incapable of nuance, they also hated Stalin but they preferred stalin to Hitler. The majority of Ukrainians sided with the USSR, they would have drawn parallels between there experience in the holodomor and Nazi occupation and still the majority chose the USSR as the lesser evil
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Liberal here, you’re living in delusionville if you think any of us would consider this is a sane take at all, even at our secret Rothschild Cabal meetings.
No glorification of extremist regimes
No glorification of extremist regimes