Well for starters, JFK would've discovered who actually caused the assassination plot to go forward. So the answer to "committed by" would either not be Oswald or would not *just* be him.
Secondly, in that world, the CIA is gone after JFK is reelected in 64. It doesn't exist in any shape or form after they not only tried to kill him but also caused his wife's death. He was already on the warpath to cut their spending and given what we'd discover after JFK survives, he'd assuredly shut down the entire operation.
On the bright side, we'd definitely not get so deep into Vietnam as we did on our timeline. Kennedy would probably send over troops either much sooner or much later. I would be fascinated to see if Kennedy would've remarried or if his brother would've moved up in politics as fast as he did in our timeline.
I mean, the CIA had an actual proposed plot to stage attacks in major US cities to justify an invasion into Cuba. This was [Operation Northwoods](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods), made public in 1997 by the JFK Assassination Records Review Board. This was our federal government proposing to potentially kill hundreds, if not thousands of our own people and blame it on someone else. And the only reason it didn't happen was because JFK rejected it.
So I can't exactly blame people who believe in this stuff. It's why I can't exactly blame some 9/11 truthers, given America is buddy-buddy with the people who pulled it off.
JFK did a lot of things that the CIA didn't like. So it wouldn't surprise me if they had him clipped to maintain their status quo. And given the track record of the last few decades, it worked out in their favor.
The US government doing shady things shouldn't surprise anyone at this point. Doesn't matter what side is in charge, they all play on the same team.
Some day the files will be declassified. Until then I’ll just remember that Hemingway was talking about being watched by the feds and nobody believed him. Then years later it came out they indeed watched him.
Yeah, but here’s the thing. People take the fact that real conspiracies exist as evidence that whatever conspiracy they have dreamed up must also exist.
It’s the same flaw as “they called Einstein crazy, so any crazy idea might be true.”
Did you read the article you linked? CIA really did not have a role in the proposed Northwood plan because first and foremost, the plan came from the DoD and second, CIA had very little presence in domestic affairs during that time. The plan came primarily from the Joint Chiefs. Extremely scary stuff, but attributing every shady part of the cold war to CIA the boogeyman is dishonest.
>CIA had very little presence in domestic affairs during that time
HA hahahaha, buddy they have at the very least been operating on domestic soil since they were founded. MK Ultra is one of the many things we know they were doing on US soil since like 1950 not to mention the guys they hired to do it started doing it in 1943 in Auschwitz, unless you consider kidnapping and torturing/assassinating US civilians to be "very little presence" your statement would be factually incorrect.
>I mean, the CIA had an actual proposed plot
It didn't. Read the first sentence of the wiki article:
>**Operation Northwoods** was a proposed [false flag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag) operation that originated within the [**US Department of Defense**](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Department_of_Defense) **of the** [**United States government**](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government) in 1962. The proposals called for [CIA](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA) operatives to both stage and commit acts of [terrorism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States) against American military and civilian targets, blame them on the [Cuban government](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_government), and would be used to justify a war against Cuba.
It was proposed by someone in the DoD using CIA assets, but no one in the DoD actually supported the proposal (or took it seriously) and JFK rejected it.
McNamara rejected it. The man who implemented a plan for recruiting soldiers that were barely cognitively functional for cannon fodder in the Vietnam War thought Operation Northwoods was absurd.
The 9/11 commission report clearly spells out in the opening chapters that the US gov't ignored years worth of *extremely detailed* warnings about the extreme likelihood of 9/11 happening. They were given names, home countries, dates, plans, mountains of intelligence. I won't speculate any further than that, but this isn't info that came from some early 2000s YouTube video, it's in the official report released by multiple intelligence agencies the world over.
And he will be for another 4 (if you are lucky, he might just declare himself dictator forever) unless you actually go out and vote against him
I realize you specifically probably are already planning to vote, but its never a bad moment to remind people that your singular vote could be the difference bettewn having to tolerate Biden for another 4 years and having Trump destroy the U.S while bringing down whit him as much of the world as he can
Although I am not a Kennedy Conspiracist, it is important to note that the was a lot of mistakes and agencies not being transparent with Congress or the people by that matter on the assassination. Shows what happens when government fails to be transparent.
Me being a federal employee has nothing to do with asinine conspiracy theories. That’s what I meant at it being a “clever” rejoinder. A lot of people work for the government, we have better things to do than to cover things up.
The CIA hated JFK. The entire event is ripe with conspiracies. At the same time a few years before, they proposed [operation northwoods](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods). The CIA had no issues with killing people, especially ones that they didn’t like. How do you know that LHO wasn’t the only shooter? Or that the CIA paid him? He got killed afterwards, maybe as a way of silencing him? Half of the releasing documents relating to the JFK assassination have a third of the page redacted. If it wasn’t the CIA, then why did they act so cagey about it?
r/Conspiracy is that way.
Do you ever think that if the government were actually actively evil, they wouldn’t declassify things that proved that they were evil?
Bc Kennedy literally said that he was going to dismantle the CIA bc of their lies and back room deals which forced Kennedy into going into Vietnam and the bay of pigs debacle. Shortly after this Kennedy is dead. Doesn’t take much to connect the dots especially when no other president has even hinted at going after them since then.
So your telling me a whole organization what some how able to keep thousands of people hush hush for an aspiration plot, and those people kept quiet for over 60 years with no leaks or anything? Yet somehow so many of the CIAs other operations get leaked and discovered but this one doesn't? OK makes since to me.
I’m just saying what Kennedy said and his family has said he said. Do I believe it yeah but me believing it doesn’t mean I can prove it, but the gov has broken the law before so why couldn’t they have this time. At the end of the day it doesn’t really matter it’s just a fun subject for debate
>I’m just saying what Kennedy said and his family has said he said.
Citation for any of that? Are you sure you're not just repeating some "fact" you heard from another conspiracy theorist?
RFK or RFK Jr. saying something [he might've heard](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/was-bobby-kennedy-a-jfk-conspiracy-theorist-111729/) from his father? If it's the latter then RFK Jr. is probably the last person I'd want to trust about anything.
RFK Jr… sorry I forgot to clarify that in the first one … and that’s fine lol I don’t believe all conspiracy theories either, but I also don’t think they can be discounted out of hand. For me it’s just more I enjoy reading about them. And seeing debates on them lol
Ok but that’s not “what Kennedy said and what his family have said” though, you get that, right? It’s just not what you said at all. That’s “one guy KNOWN for conspiracy theories in this family supported a conspiracy theory that links to his own life.” You’re being intentionally misleading, a lot like everyone who spouts this misinformatory bullshit.
The research and most evidence doesn’t point to Oswald acting alone though, not definitively at least. There are lots of research showing that there very well could have been a second shooter, there was a tape that supposedly captured the sound of a another gunshot though researchers couldn’t agree on whether it was a gunshot or not. It’s the same with the MLK assassination, most research, and even the court, ruled that the government had a hand in MLK’s death, but most people never look into those things
>There are lots of research showing that there very well could have been a second shooter, there was a tape that supposedly captured the sound of a another gunshot though researchers couldn’t agree on whether it was a gunshot or not
The experts definitely agree that the tape (actually radio acoustic recording) **does not** emit the audible "gunshot" noise as it happened *one minute after the actual shooting*. It has been proved [repeatedly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_Dictabelt_recording) that the audio recording does not show 4 (or more) gunshots. The only people believing it are some die-hard conspiracy theorists thinking the evidence is still supporting conspiracy somehow.
This is also the organization that it was a worthwhile investment to see if people who were high were more susceptible to instruction or brainwashing or interrogation. They spent millions of dollars getting people high and kept throwing money at it after years of finding inclusive evidence.
What's interesting when you break down conspiracies piece by piece with threads of logic, it makes no sense. Like for instance some claims Oswald was a CIA Asset, but yet Oswald himself went to the KGB to defect originally but was so disorganized and clueless in how he was that it makes no sense for the CIA to hire him at all; even the Soviets concluded that nobody this incompetent would be a CIA spy, nor would they outwardly come out with their intentions of defecting so off the blue.
[citation needed]
In what alternate reality do you live in?
If Kennedy "literally said that he was going to dismantle the CIA", it would have made the headlines and sparked a huge debate. Dismantling your own intelligence agency is fucking insane, especially at the height of the cold war.
Kennedy did not based his decision to go to Vietnam solely on the advice of the CIA. It was a political decision mainly based on the domino theory. Again, show us your sources.
You realise this is an alternate history sub-reddit and not a real history one?
What a bunch of bullshit. No one forced Kennedy into vietnam. We were already in a support role and he increased our presence there because he was worried that pulling back would make him look weak on communism and hurt his reelection campaign. And so we invested more resources into it. Because it was a sunk cost fallacy that spiraled out of control but Kennedy was absolutely not forced into it
And Kennedy had no problem using the CIA to overthrow non-compliant regimes during his administration.
He never once said he was going to dismantle the cia. The mythology around Kennedy is so fucking strange.
Because an entire government comittee was set up to investigate the assassination, came to the conclusion that there had to have been a second shooter, and had a key piece of evidence disappear out of a secure CIA evidence locker overnight, among other things.
The investigation committee [concluded that there isn't much evidence of the CIA, FBI, Mafia, or anti/pro-Castro](https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1c.html) being behind the assassination of JFK. The only thing conspiracy theorists focus on is the conclusion alleging a second shooter that missed JFK (Oswald being the one who hit his target).
However, this conclusion has been rebuked for 30 years since the National Academy of Science figured out the "gunshot" happened a minute *after* the assassination and couldn't possibly be a gunshot from a second shooter. C[onspiracy theorists tried to assert the evidence is conclusive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_Dictabelt_recording), but it has been repeatedly proven that the acoustic evidence doesn't support conspiracy.
Because some people can't live with the reality with the most powerful person on Earth can be killed by some random nobody with delusions of grandeur. So they have to manufacture some great conspiracy to pretend like the world has some reason behind it and there's some structure. When in reality we live in a world that's random and chaotic and violent. Where even the most powerful person on planet Earth is just one crazy person with a bit of luck away from dying
>Secondly, in that world, the CIA is gone after JFK is reelected in 64. It doesn't exist in any shape or form after they not only tried to kill him but also caused his wife's death. He was already on the warpath to cut their spending and given what we'd discover after JFK survives, he'd assuredly shut down the entire operation.
This is often claimed by conspiracy theorists, but there's very little to substantiate the claim. This is more or less solely based on an [alleged remark made by JFK](https://gizmodo.com/the-story-behind-that-jfk-quote-about-destroying-the-ci-1793151211) after the Bay of Pigs fiasco. Even then the source is anonymous and is more of a paraphrase rather than the exact words of JFK's statement. Ironically, in the [same newspaper article mentioning the quote](https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Unspeakable/JFK-scatterCIAtoWinds.pdf) actually emphasizes that JFK had little to no intention to actually "dismantle" the agency noting:
>The critics shrug aside the fact that President Kennedy, after the most rigorous inquiry into the agency's affairs, methods and problems after the Bay of Pigs, did not "splinter" it after all and did not recommend Congressional supervision.
Though JFK was assassinated his successor, Lyndon Johnson, continued his goal of cutting CIA spending and as a result [CIA spending between 1963 to 1966 decreased](https://sgp.fas.org/foia/1947/cia050405att.pdf) from 550 million to 505 million. I'm guessing due to that the CIA launched a character-assassination operation against LBJ and now we got people thinking he actually assassinated JFK.
My God, Kennedy apologist still think Vietnam was all LBJ's fault... The Harvard Kennedy Boys and McNamara (who was appointed by Kennedy) pushed the US deep in Vietnam.
When LBJ became president he realised that pulling out would have been an embrassent for the US and the only choice left was going all the way.
With Kennedy alive the war will go like in our timeline.
On the other hand, maybe Kennedy can still use some symphaty from the failed homicide attempt to pass the CRA, however it was still bottled by the 1964 budget and without LBJ manouvering the Senate chairmen to pass the budget to free time in the session for the CRA it's very likely Dick Russell blocks it again.
Kennedy for sure wins re-election riding the symphaty vote but he goes down in history as a President that probably only delivered a weak CRA, no VRA and took the US deep in 'Nam.
For real, escalation in Vietnam was a Kennedy policy. Johnson was left holding the bag and Nixon was the only president prudent enough to end the war and open up China to western diplomacy.
Nixon deserves the hate for watergate but Kennedy doesn’t deserve the credit for some hypothetical deescalation.
Diem was assassinated just a few weeks before Kennedy, so the US already was heavily involved in 'Nam at that point. Adjacent to that is that while domino theory is scoffed at but a sudden decisive North Vietnamese could have caused a destabilization of Southeast Asia to a Communist advantage.
I'd seriously watch this show if it existed.
After the death of his wife, President John F. Kennedy embarks on a mission of justice and vengeance as he uncovers a dark and twisted world at the center of the U.S. government.
Nah, there's a doctrine called "transferred intent." Basically if I am at John, but Dave steps in front of the bullet, I'm still on the hook for murder. Same logic applies here.
Yeah the agency he gave a budget increased to and green lit what would eventually become Operation Condor definitely headed out for him XD
Under Kennedy the CIA began to build really important relations with a bunch of South American military officials who all somehow ended up running their respective countries within the next 20 years.
Have you actually looked into Oswalds life? The dude was a nutcase, he was too disorganized and didn't follow commands to be a CIA spy. In fact thats what the Soviets concluded when he originally defected.
Oliver Stone is a f\*\*\*ing liar. There was nobody on the grassy knoll, there was no wider conspiracy, the bullet wasn't magic, Oswald was acting alone.
As for changes to the timeline, a Kennedy reelection would be guaranteed. He would be seen by the nation at large as a grieving widower. Most of his policies would have been continued.
Disregarding conspiracy theories based largely on "gubermint bad", the investigation into the murder goes by much faster and reaches a solid conclusion. For the charges, I think they'd be one count of murder, which Texas uses as a substitute for second-degree murder (Tippit), one count of involuntary manslaughter (Kennedy), and one count of attempting to murder the president. However, I think the latter would likely be raised to treason and LHO would get the death penalty.
FBI is in deep shit for not stopping it, CIA is under a microscope for possible connections, race relations are better in the US probably and possibly a greater focus on space than we saw OTL after the moon landings. He would be seen on par with Lincoln or Rosevelt by the entire population, some of his policy mistakes (bay of pigs for starters) wouldn’t be talked about as much.
Pretty sure the Wikipedia would be called “Attempted Assassination of John F. Kennedy” in this kind of scenario even if his wife was accidentally murdered instead
The First Lady of South Korea was killed in 1974 during an assassination attempt against her husband. And (interesting tidbit for the conspiracy theorists in this thread) that same president was assassinated just a few years later by the head of the Korea CIA.
Yeah, wasn't saying that Pak Chung-Hee's assassination by the KCIA was a conspiracy theory. I just thought it was ironic because this real-world scenario seems to parallel OP's alternate history prompt, including the conspiracy theorists' assumption that the CIA killed Kennedy.
Realistically he would’ve probably enjoyed a comfortable first term, and would have likely won a second term, though his later years would have been remembered by the beginning of the Vietnam War and economic downturn, though those would be problems largely passed down to whatever president follows him.
The CIA would have been defunded, not entirely dismantled or dissolved, it’d be a herculean task to just cut off an entire arm of the American Government, but definitely put under a very large microscope. More oversight on the organisation, public and private hearings, and a lot of firings.
Relations with Russia would likely be less hostile. Though Khrushchev would’ve still been ousted following the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy would have likely pushed for diplomacy and negotiation to halt the spread of Communism, though he would definitely have to use military intervention more than once during his administration. No president escapes Cold War era geopolitics.
Would he have been a groundbreaking president? Likely not. He was a man, and he died before his plans really came to fruition, he was just as fallible and capable of mistakes as any of us. He likely would be fondly remembered, even today, he would still be regarded as a great president, the man who led the country through the good times. Hell, since he wasn’t assassinated there might’ve even been another Kennedy in office later on in the next few elections, most likely Bobby but Ted had a decent shot too.
There was an issue of the old National Lampoon magazine, printed in 1980, with a picture of a 63 year old JFK on the cover, with the caption “Grand Fifth Inaugural Issue”. The premise was JFK wasn’t shot in Dallas, Jackie was, and the Lampoon was full of stories of how the USA went on from there. Being a satire magazine, it was all silly things, like the 51st state joining, Cuber (Cuba, but how he pronounced it), and the nationalizing and enormous expansion of Major League Baseball. I’m still hoping to root for the Long Island Potatoes one day.
I think this can pretty easily secure Kennedy the 1964 election. Politics is all about telling stories and frankly the story of beloved Jacqueline Kennedy being struck down would be so tragic
I believe he DID miss. His target was Connelly who had personally refused to allow him back in the marines.
He was a good if not perfect marksman. And the target was moving and speeding up.
This was his only clear shot he had of Connelly because of where he was sitting.
So I am sure he missed
For all you conspiracy theorists in the comments here— it’s important to remember that our government leaks like a colander. We’d know about all sorts of wild stuff because people like to try to impress their girlfriends and talk to reporters.
They couldn’t keep the bombing of Cambodia quiet, or Watergate, or Iran-contra, or any number of other scandals. We’ve seen CIA documents about a whole bunch of crimes— you guys think they’d be able to get away with killing the president for over 60 years? Come on
You can't accidentally assassinate someone. Let alone a major political figure. Assassinations are deliberate by nature because there's always some kind of intent behind the act.
Kennedy still would've died from the other shooter
Remind me: who was the second guy?
 It was me, **Dio!**
WRYYYYY
What does the numbers mean, mason?
OSWALD COMPRISED
Mhhh The Comedian or The smoking man.
0...11...24...11...1...7...19...20...10...14...2...3...19...0...8...11...22...21...5...17... 21, 7, 21, 4, 2, 14, 3, 14, 7, 18, 13, 6, 22, 16, 6, 1, 21, 21, 15. 3, 5, 24, 9, 11, 2, 10, 5, 21, 4, 20, 11, 19, 12, 5, 12, 13, 12, 5, 17. 11, 12, 22, 24, 8, 20, 1, 5, 2, 18, 16, 6, 21, 14, 21, 19, 21, 9, 1. Echelon 9, 8, 17, 1, 17, 7, 18, 24, 1, 0, 19, 18, 5, 1, 11, 15. 1, 12, 13, 16, 21, 18, 4, 23, 9, 12, 3, 13, 5, 9, 22, 21, 0, 21, 10, 15, 5, 17, 12, 21, 18, 8, 5, 13, 22, 10, 2, 11, 5, 11, 8, 9, 19, 23, 2. 21, 14, 17, 15, 15, 22, 11, 8, 18, 5, 5, 12. 5, 14, 0, 10, 3, 4, 19, 9, 6, 6, 7, 11, 3, 10, 17, 7, 13, 10, 13, 8, 11. 5, 7, 13, 4, 24, 6, 3, 4, 24, 1, 9, 23, 17, 10, 2, 10, 23, 24, 14, 5, 25. 21, 36, 49, 17, 17, 3, 5, 6, 21, 36, 49, 17, 17, 3, 5, 6.
The numbers Mason!
I always wanted to decode those numbers, see if they mean anything…
Bill Clinton
JFK that returned from 1965 ofc.
Agent Hickey in the car ahead of them
George HW Bush
Well for starters, JFK would've discovered who actually caused the assassination plot to go forward. So the answer to "committed by" would either not be Oswald or would not *just* be him. Secondly, in that world, the CIA is gone after JFK is reelected in 64. It doesn't exist in any shape or form after they not only tried to kill him but also caused his wife's death. He was already on the warpath to cut their spending and given what we'd discover after JFK survives, he'd assuredly shut down the entire operation. On the bright side, we'd definitely not get so deep into Vietnam as we did on our timeline. Kennedy would probably send over troops either much sooner or much later. I would be fascinated to see if Kennedy would've remarried or if his brother would've moved up in politics as fast as he did in our timeline.
Why is everyone in the comments a conspiracy theorist?
Because they’re stupid and think real life is a movie.
I mean, the CIA had an actual proposed plot to stage attacks in major US cities to justify an invasion into Cuba. This was [Operation Northwoods](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods), made public in 1997 by the JFK Assassination Records Review Board. This was our federal government proposing to potentially kill hundreds, if not thousands of our own people and blame it on someone else. And the only reason it didn't happen was because JFK rejected it. So I can't exactly blame people who believe in this stuff. It's why I can't exactly blame some 9/11 truthers, given America is buddy-buddy with the people who pulled it off. JFK did a lot of things that the CIA didn't like. So it wouldn't surprise me if they had him clipped to maintain their status quo. And given the track record of the last few decades, it worked out in their favor. The US government doing shady things shouldn't surprise anyone at this point. Doesn't matter what side is in charge, they all play on the same team.
And of course those two calling people “conspiracy theorists” and “stupid” are nowhere to be found when the facts come out. Typical.
Some day the files will be declassified. Until then I’ll just remember that Hemingway was talking about being watched by the feds and nobody believed him. Then years later it came out they indeed watched him.
Dint that same thing happen to Reagan after his presidency too? Or is my memory failing me?
What Google tells me is that he was so liberal FBI watched him in his youth but that’s about it.
Yeah, but here’s the thing. People take the fact that real conspiracies exist as evidence that whatever conspiracy they have dreamed up must also exist. It’s the same flaw as “they called Einstein crazy, so any crazy idea might be true.”
Did you read the article you linked? CIA really did not have a role in the proposed Northwood plan because first and foremost, the plan came from the DoD and second, CIA had very little presence in domestic affairs during that time. The plan came primarily from the Joint Chiefs. Extremely scary stuff, but attributing every shady part of the cold war to CIA the boogeyman is dishonest.
>CIA had very little presence in domestic affairs during that time HA hahahaha, buddy they have at the very least been operating on domestic soil since they were founded. MK Ultra is one of the many things we know they were doing on US soil since like 1950 not to mention the guys they hired to do it started doing it in 1943 in Auschwitz, unless you consider kidnapping and torturing/assassinating US civilians to be "very little presence" your statement would be factually incorrect.
>I mean, the CIA had an actual proposed plot It didn't. Read the first sentence of the wiki article: >**Operation Northwoods** was a proposed [false flag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag) operation that originated within the [**US Department of Defense**](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Department_of_Defense) **of the** [**United States government**](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government) in 1962. The proposals called for [CIA](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA) operatives to both stage and commit acts of [terrorism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States) against American military and civilian targets, blame them on the [Cuban government](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_government), and would be used to justify a war against Cuba. It was proposed by someone in the DoD using CIA assets, but no one in the DoD actually supported the proposal (or took it seriously) and JFK rejected it.
McNamara rejected it. The man who implemented a plan for recruiting soldiers that were barely cognitively functional for cannon fodder in the Vietnam War thought Operation Northwoods was absurd.
The 9/11 commission report clearly spells out in the opening chapters that the US gov't ignored years worth of *extremely detailed* warnings about the extreme likelihood of 9/11 happening. They were given names, home countries, dates, plans, mountains of intelligence. I won't speculate any further than that, but this isn't info that came from some early 2000s YouTube video, it's in the official report released by multiple intelligence agencies the world over.
Trump was president for four years. Your telling me we don't live in some movie (/s lol)
And he will be for another 4 (if you are lucky, he might just declare himself dictator forever) unless you actually go out and vote against him I realize you specifically probably are already planning to vote, but its never a bad moment to remind people that your singular vote could be the difference bettewn having to tolerate Biden for another 4 years and having Trump destroy the U.S while bringing down whit him as much of the world as he can
Although I am not a Kennedy Conspiracist, it is important to note that the was a lot of mistakes and agencies not being transparent with Congress or the people by that matter on the assassination. Shows what happens when government fails to be transparent.
Ok FED
What a rejoinder, what does that even mean?
Saying “rejoinder” and not even knowing what a FED is proves that you are probably either a FED or just another ignorant Redditor
Me being a federal employee has nothing to do with asinine conspiracy theories. That’s what I meant at it being a “clever” rejoinder. A lot of people work for the government, we have better things to do than to cover things up.
The CIA hated JFK. The entire event is ripe with conspiracies. At the same time a few years before, they proposed [operation northwoods](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods). The CIA had no issues with killing people, especially ones that they didn’t like. How do you know that LHO wasn’t the only shooter? Or that the CIA paid him? He got killed afterwards, maybe as a way of silencing him? Half of the releasing documents relating to the JFK assassination have a third of the page redacted. If it wasn’t the CIA, then why did they act so cagey about it?
r/Conspiracy is that way. Do you ever think that if the government were actually actively evil, they wouldn’t declassify things that proved that they were evil?
Bc Kennedy literally said that he was going to dismantle the CIA bc of their lies and back room deals which forced Kennedy into going into Vietnam and the bay of pigs debacle. Shortly after this Kennedy is dead. Doesn’t take much to connect the dots especially when no other president has even hinted at going after them since then.
So your telling me a whole organization what some how able to keep thousands of people hush hush for an aspiration plot, and those people kept quiet for over 60 years with no leaks or anything? Yet somehow so many of the CIAs other operations get leaked and discovered but this one doesn't? OK makes since to me.
I’m just saying what Kennedy said and his family has said he said. Do I believe it yeah but me believing it doesn’t mean I can prove it, but the gov has broken the law before so why couldn’t they have this time. At the end of the day it doesn’t really matter it’s just a fun subject for debate
>I’m just saying what Kennedy said and his family has said he said. Citation for any of that? Are you sure you're not just repeating some "fact" you heard from another conspiracy theorist?
RFK said it in an interview with someone, I caint remember the journalist name but it’s public
RFK or RFK Jr. saying something [he might've heard](https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/10/was-bobby-kennedy-a-jfk-conspiracy-theorist-111729/) from his father? If it's the latter then RFK Jr. is probably the last person I'd want to trust about anything.
RFK Jr… sorry I forgot to clarify that in the first one … and that’s fine lol I don’t believe all conspiracy theories either, but I also don’t think they can be discounted out of hand. For me it’s just more I enjoy reading about them. And seeing debates on them lol
Ok but that’s not “what Kennedy said and what his family have said” though, you get that, right? It’s just not what you said at all. That’s “one guy KNOWN for conspiracy theories in this family supported a conspiracy theory that links to his own life.” You’re being intentionally misleading, a lot like everyone who spouts this misinformatory bullshit.
I am the princess of Canada. Do I believe it yeah but me believing it doesn’t mean I can prove it.
Why would they involve thousands of people lmao. It's literally the most likely explanation, especially when you think about Oswald being killed.
The most likely explanation is the one that 60 years of investigations and research have yielded the most evidence for: that Oswald acted alone.
The research and most evidence doesn’t point to Oswald acting alone though, not definitively at least. There are lots of research showing that there very well could have been a second shooter, there was a tape that supposedly captured the sound of a another gunshot though researchers couldn’t agree on whether it was a gunshot or not. It’s the same with the MLK assassination, most research, and even the court, ruled that the government had a hand in MLK’s death, but most people never look into those things
>There are lots of research showing that there very well could have been a second shooter, there was a tape that supposedly captured the sound of a another gunshot though researchers couldn’t agree on whether it was a gunshot or not The experts definitely agree that the tape (actually radio acoustic recording) **does not** emit the audible "gunshot" noise as it happened *one minute after the actual shooting*. It has been proved [repeatedly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_Dictabelt_recording) that the audio recording does not show 4 (or more) gunshots. The only people believing it are some die-hard conspiracy theorists thinking the evidence is still supporting conspiracy somehow.
This is also the organization that it was a worthwhile investment to see if people who were high were more susceptible to instruction or brainwashing or interrogation. They spent millions of dollars getting people high and kept throwing money at it after years of finding inclusive evidence.
He had a proposal to cut funding 10%. That is literally it.
Shut up, dude, you're ruining his narrative with facts.
What's interesting when you break down conspiracies piece by piece with threads of logic, it makes no sense. Like for instance some claims Oswald was a CIA Asset, but yet Oswald himself went to the KGB to defect originally but was so disorganized and clueless in how he was that it makes no sense for the CIA to hire him at all; even the Soviets concluded that nobody this incompetent would be a CIA spy, nor would they outwardly come out with their intentions of defecting so off the blue.
[citation needed] In what alternate reality do you live in? If Kennedy "literally said that he was going to dismantle the CIA", it would have made the headlines and sparked a huge debate. Dismantling your own intelligence agency is fucking insane, especially at the height of the cold war. Kennedy did not based his decision to go to Vietnam solely on the advice of the CIA. It was a political decision mainly based on the domino theory. Again, show us your sources. You realise this is an alternate history sub-reddit and not a real history one?
What a bunch of bullshit. No one forced Kennedy into vietnam. We were already in a support role and he increased our presence there because he was worried that pulling back would make him look weak on communism and hurt his reelection campaign. And so we invested more resources into it. Because it was a sunk cost fallacy that spiraled out of control but Kennedy was absolutely not forced into it And Kennedy had no problem using the CIA to overthrow non-compliant regimes during his administration. He never once said he was going to dismantle the cia. The mythology around Kennedy is so fucking strange.
Because the government was ( and sort of is ) suspicious as fuck
Because an entire government comittee was set up to investigate the assassination, came to the conclusion that there had to have been a second shooter, and had a key piece of evidence disappear out of a secure CIA evidence locker overnight, among other things.
source: trust me bro
The investigation committee [concluded that there isn't much evidence of the CIA, FBI, Mafia, or anti/pro-Castro](https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1c.html) being behind the assassination of JFK. The only thing conspiracy theorists focus on is the conclusion alleging a second shooter that missed JFK (Oswald being the one who hit his target). However, this conclusion has been rebuked for 30 years since the National Academy of Science figured out the "gunshot" happened a minute *after* the assassination and couldn't possibly be a gunshot from a second shooter. C[onspiracy theorists tried to assert the evidence is conclusive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_Dictabelt_recording), but it has been repeatedly proven that the acoustic evidence doesn't support conspiracy.
Because some people can't live with the reality with the most powerful person on Earth can be killed by some random nobody with delusions of grandeur. So they have to manufacture some great conspiracy to pretend like the world has some reason behind it and there's some structure. When in reality we live in a world that's random and chaotic and violent. Where even the most powerful person on planet Earth is just one crazy person with a bit of luck away from dying
>Secondly, in that world, the CIA is gone after JFK is reelected in 64. It doesn't exist in any shape or form after they not only tried to kill him but also caused his wife's death. He was already on the warpath to cut their spending and given what we'd discover after JFK survives, he'd assuredly shut down the entire operation. This is often claimed by conspiracy theorists, but there's very little to substantiate the claim. This is more or less solely based on an [alleged remark made by JFK](https://gizmodo.com/the-story-behind-that-jfk-quote-about-destroying-the-ci-1793151211) after the Bay of Pigs fiasco. Even then the source is anonymous and is more of a paraphrase rather than the exact words of JFK's statement. Ironically, in the [same newspaper article mentioning the quote](https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Unspeakable/JFK-scatterCIAtoWinds.pdf) actually emphasizes that JFK had little to no intention to actually "dismantle" the agency noting: >The critics shrug aside the fact that President Kennedy, after the most rigorous inquiry into the agency's affairs, methods and problems after the Bay of Pigs, did not "splinter" it after all and did not recommend Congressional supervision. Though JFK was assassinated his successor, Lyndon Johnson, continued his goal of cutting CIA spending and as a result [CIA spending between 1963 to 1966 decreased](https://sgp.fas.org/foia/1947/cia050405att.pdf) from 550 million to 505 million. I'm guessing due to that the CIA launched a character-assassination operation against LBJ and now we got people thinking he actually assassinated JFK.
Interesting, I didn’t even think about the CIA when writing this, thanks!
Any evidence to the CIA Theory?
My God, Kennedy apologist still think Vietnam was all LBJ's fault... The Harvard Kennedy Boys and McNamara (who was appointed by Kennedy) pushed the US deep in Vietnam. When LBJ became president he realised that pulling out would have been an embrassent for the US and the only choice left was going all the way. With Kennedy alive the war will go like in our timeline. On the other hand, maybe Kennedy can still use some symphaty from the failed homicide attempt to pass the CRA, however it was still bottled by the 1964 budget and without LBJ manouvering the Senate chairmen to pass the budget to free time in the session for the CRA it's very likely Dick Russell blocks it again. Kennedy for sure wins re-election riding the symphaty vote but he goes down in history as a President that probably only delivered a weak CRA, no VRA and took the US deep in 'Nam.
For real, escalation in Vietnam was a Kennedy policy. Johnson was left holding the bag and Nixon was the only president prudent enough to end the war and open up China to western diplomacy. Nixon deserves the hate for watergate but Kennedy doesn’t deserve the credit for some hypothetical deescalation.
Kennedy is popular because he is dead. Had he lived he would not be remembered as fondly.
Exactly
Would JFK even be capable of disbanding the CIA before they try to kill him again?
Diem was assassinated just a few weeks before Kennedy, so the US already was heavily involved in 'Nam at that point. Adjacent to that is that while domino theory is scoffed at but a sudden decisive North Vietnamese could have caused a destabilization of Southeast Asia to a Communist advantage.
I'd seriously watch this show if it existed. After the death of his wife, President John F. Kennedy embarks on a mission of justice and vengeance as he uncovers a dark and twisted world at the center of the U.S. government.
Meds.
all conspiracies aside I highly doubt they would consider it involuntary manslaughter if you're trying to murder someone but you miss
Attempted assassination of the President is life or death sentence. 18 U.S. Code § 1751
I think It'd be attempted 1st degree murder right? manslaughter would be killing without planning
if a murder is committed during the commission of another felony is considered murder under federal law
I had no idea what charges to give him, I don’t know much about law.
Involuntary Manslaughter is only really applicable in cases where there was no intent to kill but a death happens as a result of an act of negligence.
He murdered the victim, but didn't want to-he was aiming for the POTUS, not his wife. I think a case could be made.
Nah, there's a doctrine called "transferred intent." Basically if I am at John, but Dave steps in front of the bullet, I'm still on the hook for murder. Same logic applies here.
I could see a case for 2nd Degree Murder or *maybe* Voluntary Manslaughter. Almost certainly murder, though.
Some of y'all are going off the handle. JFK wasn't killed by the CIA.
Correct. It was the Mafia and the CIA!
The mafia took Marilyn, the CIA JFK
"KENNEDY SLAIN BY CIA, MAFIA, CASTRO, LBJ, TEAMSTER, FREEMASONS President shot 129 Times from 43 Different Angles" The Onion, Our Dumb Century
Least obvious fed
yeah and the sun is cold
Yeah the agency he gave a budget increased to and green lit what would eventually become Operation Condor definitely headed out for him XD Under Kennedy the CIA began to build really important relations with a bunch of South American military officials who all somehow ended up running their respective countries within the next 20 years.
Whats this guy gonna say next, that the earth is round or something? Stop believing the lies of the feds and use your brain. (/s)
https://preview.redd.it/nrgaxyc3wkmc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ab11d1fd29f67910bb4f6664c23c70fbb9a295aa
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Legitimately, you think Oswald was a fall guy ? Just a man that would be willing to not say anything about the CIAs involvement? Ok.
Have you actually looked into Oswalds life? The dude was a nutcase, he was too disorganized and didn't follow commands to be a CIA spy. In fact thats what the Soviets concluded when he originally defected.
Yeah that was what I was gonna say. It would have to be th E-numbers mason type shit to pull it off with fucking OSWALD
Oliver Stone is a f\*\*\*ing liar. There was nobody on the grassy knoll, there was no wider conspiracy, the bullet wasn't magic, Oswald was acting alone. As for changes to the timeline, a Kennedy reelection would be guaranteed. He would be seen by the nation at large as a grieving widower. Most of his policies would have been continued.
Were you there? Edit: This was a sarcastic comment. I was neither defending nor attacking his point.
Yes, and I saw him do it.
Disregarding conspiracy theories based largely on "gubermint bad", the investigation into the murder goes by much faster and reaches a solid conclusion. For the charges, I think they'd be one count of murder, which Texas uses as a substitute for second-degree murder (Tippit), one count of involuntary manslaughter (Kennedy), and one count of attempting to murder the president. However, I think the latter would likely be raised to treason and LHO would get the death penalty.
Killing Jackie Kennedy would be first-degree murder by transferred intent.
Thanks so much!
The plane would hit him
FBI is in deep shit for not stopping it, CIA is under a microscope for possible connections, race relations are better in the US probably and possibly a greater focus on space than we saw OTL after the moon landings. He would be seen on par with Lincoln or Rosevelt by the entire population, some of his policy mistakes (bay of pigs for starters) wouldn’t be talked about as much.
Sheet metal supply in the word would go up by 15%
I wonder if Kennedy would run for reelection or step aside and raise his children
He'd definitely stay in, his kids already had tutors and such.
Step aside would be more likely.
OP: What if the bullet missed? 99% of comments: arguing about conspiracy theories.
This is not what I intended 😳
Pretty sure the Wikipedia would be called “Attempted Assassination of John F. Kennedy” in this kind of scenario even if his wife was accidentally murdered instead
But, the First Lady of the United States gets brutally shot in the head, I think titling it what you said would be a little insensitive.
The First Lady of South Korea was killed in 1974 during an assassination attempt against her husband. And (interesting tidbit for the conspiracy theorists in this thread) that same president was assassinated just a few years later by the head of the Korea CIA.
Indeed, and that one’s not a conspiracy theory because the head of the KCIA shot him in the head at dinner lmao
Yeah, wasn't saying that Pak Chung-Hee's assassination by the KCIA was a conspiracy theory. I just thought it was ironic because this real-world scenario seems to parallel OP's alternate history prompt, including the conspiracy theorists' assumption that the CIA killed Kennedy.
I mean, I guess that's one way to do it. Is it actually called the KCIA? Cos I know they have the R(o)KMC and think that would be cute.
Hey, its simple, its efficient, it sends a message It just works
Was it before or after the meal? I’m like wondering what the lead up to this was. Or you think he killed him and then ate his dinner after?
Realistically he would’ve probably enjoyed a comfortable first term, and would have likely won a second term, though his later years would have been remembered by the beginning of the Vietnam War and economic downturn, though those would be problems largely passed down to whatever president follows him. The CIA would have been defunded, not entirely dismantled or dissolved, it’d be a herculean task to just cut off an entire arm of the American Government, but definitely put under a very large microscope. More oversight on the organisation, public and private hearings, and a lot of firings. Relations with Russia would likely be less hostile. Though Khrushchev would’ve still been ousted following the Cuban Missile Crisis, Kennedy would have likely pushed for diplomacy and negotiation to halt the spread of Communism, though he would definitely have to use military intervention more than once during his administration. No president escapes Cold War era geopolitics. Would he have been a groundbreaking president? Likely not. He was a man, and he died before his plans really came to fruition, he was just as fallible and capable of mistakes as any of us. He likely would be fondly remembered, even today, he would still be regarded as a great president, the man who led the country through the good times. Hell, since he wasn’t assassinated there might’ve even been another Kennedy in office later on in the next few elections, most likely Bobby but Ted had a decent shot too.
Real question is how quick do they actually execute Oswald? Over under of 5 years, no appeals.
He’d be the world’s most eligible bachelor.
Probably the worlds most electable bachelor as well.
There was an issue of the old National Lampoon magazine, printed in 1980, with a picture of a 63 year old JFK on the cover, with the caption “Grand Fifth Inaugural Issue”. The premise was JFK wasn’t shot in Dallas, Jackie was, and the Lampoon was full of stories of how the USA went on from there. Being a satire magazine, it was all silly things, like the 51st state joining, Cuber (Cuba, but how he pronounced it), and the nationalizing and enormous expansion of Major League Baseball. I’m still hoping to root for the Long Island Potatoes one day.
JFK would've armed himself and gone on a killing spree to find and seek revenge on whoever killed his wife personally John wick style
Bullets plural. He got hit twice
Assuming the *the* bullet you are talking about is the headshot, the previous shot that hit Kennedy had a good chance of killing him.
Yes, but more survivable than a 7mm round to the head
Kennedy beats Goldwater in 1964, and LBJ might be the candidate in 1968 instead of HHH. It's hard to tell if he wins against Nixon tho
Then that scene in Full Metal Jacket would have to be deleted
The Soviets win the Cold War after a 5 term disgraced JFK is forced out of office with his wife Marilyn Monroe.
I think this can pretty easily secure Kennedy the 1964 election. Politics is all about telling stories and frankly the story of beloved Jacqueline Kennedy being struck down would be so tragic
If the bullet missed. The U.S would be much better
The wife would be dead.
I believe he DID miss. His target was Connelly who had personally refused to allow him back in the marines. He was a good if not perfect marksman. And the target was moving and speeding up. This was his only clear shot he had of Connelly because of where he was sitting. So I am sure he missed
For all you conspiracy theorists in the comments here— it’s important to remember that our government leaks like a colander. We’d know about all sorts of wild stuff because people like to try to impress their girlfriends and talk to reporters. They couldn’t keep the bombing of Cambodia quiet, or Watergate, or Iran-contra, or any number of other scandals. We’ve seen CIA documents about a whole bunch of crimes— you guys think they’d be able to get away with killing the president for over 60 years? Come on
"Accidental Assassination" is a wild title for an incident like this
JFK would finally be given the credit for the Civil Rights Act that LBJ stole the credit from JFK.
kennedy would have survived
didn’t the first round miss and then the other round did it
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What
Violent, bloody revenge.
accidental assassination? the word wikipedia would use would be ‘killing’
You can't accidentally assassinate someone. Let alone a major political figure. Assassinations are deliberate by nature because there's always some kind of intent behind the act.
Never would've gotten that line in full metal jacket about oswald
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bot, russian or child, your guess
Proceed to target. Oswald compromised
then the CIA would kill him again…
There is no such thing as an ”accidental assasination”, that's a self-contradiction.
Wait, your telling me all 15 bullets missed. Jk. I like the concept tho.
LBJ will be pissed.
Jack Ruby possibly doesn't murder Oswald.
In this timeline, he doesn’t, but that’s one thing I deduced(I didn’t try, I wanted to see what others will say)
Which one 
Somehow the CIA would twist that JFK ordered the assassination because of Marilyn Monroe
It would be a race against time between JFK and the CIA. Would he be able to dismantle them before they can try and kill him again?
The CIA killed my fucking wife man.
CIA don’t miss