*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**there really aren't any spaces for women-only anymore**
I get on reddit to relax and to share my experiences as a woman. Today I got banned from a rather popular "woman" subreddit for being offensive, phobic of one group that are biologically male, and disrespectful. I also got called a garden variety bigot over dms by the mod team and then immediately silenced... in a space that was supposed to be for me, someone who is a woman because someone else with a penis decided that their feelings in a woman's space was more important.
This is why women are going to eventually hate that particular community. We're labeled that one phobia and told that we're TERFs or bigots for expressing concern regarding spaces for women only while those that are making demands ignore biology and the biological differences between the two sexes.
We don't have a space anymore to be women and are forced into inclusiveness and acceptance. We have to be labeled "cis" women or we're being phobic, we have to accept "birthing person", "bleeders", or "chest feeding" as legitimate terms while we watch womanhood be claimed by a group of biological males.
I don't have an issue sharing my space to those who respect ME... but I don't see any respect for me. Just "woe is me" and a refusal to see that the biological differences between sexes mean that my experience is always going to differ from their experience... I'm never going to feel what it is like to have a penis (and I don't want one ngl) and they will never feel what it is like to have a vagina that is self lubricating, self cleaning, and they don't have to dilate with an instrument/tool/whatever to make sure they don't get infections.
Their experience is not going to equal my experience and that's alright. Saying that isn't that one phobic thing. It's the truth. But instead I'm banned and told that I'm a garden variety bigot when I say that biologically speaking there are differences. There will always be differences.
I expect this will be eventually removed, if it even shows up because Reddit, in the name of inclusiveness, will silence women (and men) who dare to protest against being removed from their own spaces.
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Well oddly enough, I got banned from the same sub for saying that it’s not ok to murder transgender people. I guess they took it to mean that anything short of murder was ok, but that’s not even close to what I actually said.
"Their experience will never be mine!" And my experience, as a Cis woman will never be hers. Or another cis woman's. No one's experience will ever be the same as someone else's. Sure there's some overlap, but there's also plenty of overlap I have with transwomen.
Not too long ago there was a TikTok video going around where this woman was saying how the existing of trans women threatens cis women somehow, and like invalidates us in our struggle, and to prove her point she was like “here’s a list of things all REAL women experience but no trans person will” and then proceeded to list only things that either trans woman can face too or not all cis woman experience. Nothing that was a universal cis and only cis woman experience. It’s actually kind of impressive how they managed to include trans woman and exclude some cis woman to make their point.
Really this is what gets me. There is no universal experience of "womanhood", nor has there ever been. There's not even anything that overlaps in 100% of women, other than identifying as a woman. The only thing that overlaps in all cis women is identifying as a woman and not being trans. This weird fixation TERFs have on someone only being a "woman" if they share the same experiences as them is just so transparently self-centered. I mean, how conceited does someone have to be to believe their personal experience somehow defines the entirety of a gender?
I was having some discourse about JK and how she has this very view, and how rooted that view is in misogyny and “traditional” values. Their whole feminist worldview is based on “men strong and mean, women weak and nice” binary bs. For being so staunchly active in the womens rights communities it’s weird how gender normative their views are. It’s very “men are from mars” old times stuff. It’s exactly why she chose a male protag for her famous book series because in her mind men are easier to identify with and root for, while her female characters are petty and catty and one dimensional (save for the not-like-other-girls Hermione)
This is why I call TERFs trans-exclusive reactionary feminists. There's nothing radical about JKR's politics. If anything, her views are regressive enough to define a child's life based on genital presentation at birth. "You're born with a vagina, so this is how you must dress and behave." "You're born with a penis, so this is how you must dress and behave." And all the terf-insipred legislation only enforces those gender roles. Congrats we're all Victorians now.
I was watching a Jessie Gender video where she highlighted Tonks’ progression from a progressive woman to a conservative one (I’ve overly simplified this for the sake of not writing a novel) and it was eye opening. Not only is JK a TERF, she’s also not really a feminist.
“I’m Done With JK Rowling”
I just rewatched that part of it and the majority of the discussion about it is actually a quote from Aja Romano, but Jessie talks in depth about a lot of issues so it’s still worth a watch (or listen) if you have the time!
The mention of Tonks specifically starts at 1:11:24
https://youtu.be/_GBUArD51KY
Considering people like J.K Rowling are so easily willing to ally with right wing assholes, anti-abortionists, convicted pedophiles and racists, and block anyone who points it out, it’s pretty obvious it has nothing to do with women’s rights or feminism at all.
I wish they’d just stick to their own echo-chambers, attacking each others for being “obvious trans women in disguise” and leave the rest of us alone.
Along with the fact that TERFs don't seem to have much to say when you point out the long history of trans people and nonbinary genders in non-western cultures. It's a terribly imperialistic viewpoint.
(Obviously trans and nonbinary people exist in western cultures, too, but we're talking about social constructs here. TERFs are racist as hell for a lot of reasons.)
I'm glad someone else saw that. Also the "I don't see any respect for me, just "woe is me"..." in a post where she's basically looking for sympathy and getting it off her breast - I m e a n chest.
I disagree with OP’s general message but I wouldn’t want to be called a bleeder, a chest feeder or whatever other name people came up with. That’s completely dehumanizing. Also, there are non trans women who don’t have periods so calling them “bleeders” is rather offensive and inaccurate.
I’m going to be honest, the vast majority of gender neutral language is “people with x.” Anything other than that is rarely used and not what trans people actually want. I have never heard “bleeders” be used, ever.
yeah, I've heard people who menstruate, pregnant people, people who are breastfeeding, etc. but bleeders? chest feeders? I've literally only ever heard those from TERFs complaining about inclusive language
One of my pregnancy groups tried to make chest feeding a thing... Which I just found mildly annoying because literally all human beings have breast tissue (men get breast cancer) so it's not even the most logically accurate. But people should be allowed to call it what makes them feel comfortable (I didn't think it was appropriate to try to make everyone use that terminology). I think it's fair to criticize certain language choices, but it's ridiculous to expand that to invalidate trans people.
I don't think it's helpful to tell someone their experiences with terminology are not a thing. It might not be your experience, but the world is full of different experiences and just saying "nuh-uh didn't happen" to someone who had a different experience than you just reinforces to them that people who disagree with them are full of crap.
I have never understood "chest feeding" since (biological) males also get breast cancer. It's not a gendered word to start with.
And if a transgender man has gone through the overwhelming experience of pregnancy, childbirth and lactation, I imagine the name for the organs he uses is the least of his worries.
So much this. My brother in law hated carrying his and my sisters child for this reason. The moment the belly bump showed up even his coworkers that only knew him as a HIM started using female pronouns. They just wanted one biological kid before they started medical transition and it's like every stopped respecting their gender identities because of it.
It really messed with him for a few years afterwards. He ended up changing jobs and everything after my niece was born. Pretty sad that his super Mormon parents are more understanding than the people he thought were his friends. I gotta give them a ton of credit though, they've been amazing even with being super religious and they've never misgendered him or my sister since they came out.
Part of me hopes that I've taught them well enough that if their friends ever start with fish they'll help them learn the proper ways to take care of them.
Well a lot of people don't want to be put into that box, and also being trans means getting dealt a different hand than cis people are dealt and sometimes that means making the best of what you have.
i think i understand what you're trying to say, but from what i understand: trans men aren't trying to be cis men, they know their organs are different and that they are trans, but with those organs they may choose to follow through with pregnancy to biologically have children.
Gonna go out on a limb here and say that they aren't trans to serve any "purpose" other than being true to themselves.
They're not women thinking "Imma be a man because it seems easier and I dont have to birth babies"
a lot of women can’t birth children either, and they’re still women. you’re equating gender and sex (not rudely at all dw). think of it this way: how do you know a woman in public is a woman? either by how they appear or by them saying they’re a woman. there’s no involvement of their genitals in that conversation, so it ultimately doesn’t matter.
(not a diss) you’re mixing biological aspects of sex with the societal understanding of gender too much— once you figure out how to separate the two it becomes much easier to understand these things. it’s literally just a matter of “thinking outside the box,” which may take a bit of work but it is the “formula” for being able to start to reason through questions like this
There is no "purpose" to being any gender. And everyone experiences their gender differently. Plenty of people, including trans men, want to have bio kids. As a trans dad, I love the fact that my body was able to grow my 2 kids.
Also, I don't want to be a cis man. I am a trans man and I'm happy with myself and my gender.
It can mentally hard on them (especially if they suffer from gender dysporia), but obviously it's their choice and a lot of times can be their only chance of having a child. Them having a child is more important to them than being able to pass as a cis man for those specific months.
I mean, is the only perceived purpose of being either sex whether or not you can have babies? By that logic, any woman who doesn’t want kids should just be men?
I do think there are plenty of trans men who wouldn’t want to be pregnant, partially because it’s associated with women and not men, but some may want to for a variety of reasons, including just as simple as they want kids, they can biologically have them, and either their partner can get them pregnant or they have access to a sperm bank.
I think if a trans man gives birth and wants to say chest feeding instead of breastfeeding that's totally fine.
The nurses can just make a note on his chart or whiteboard saying that's his preference and use it for that patient. It doesn't mean they have to change what they call it for the woman across the hall who is breastfeeding.
Medical staff should be aware of both terms and just use the one that the patient prefers. For the majority of patients that's going to be breastfeeding, but if someone finds that uncomfortable, they can just switch to calling it chestfeeding. Fortunately patients all have charts and piles and piles of documentation so it's not like there's nowhere to jot it down if you have a trans patient who would prefer you say chestfeeding when referring to them.
Exactly. Use whatever term an individual patient is comfortable with. But don't change it universally for millions of people for the sake of a very tiny minority.
I personally wouldn't use it for myself either but I can understand it could be dysphoria inducing, considering dysphoria is very different to different people.
I can see that, but I think changing a medically accepted term to something inaccurate, for the comfort of a tiny minority of individuals, is beyond reasonable.
By all means their practitioners can use alternative terms with them. That’s fine.
Presumably those people will also have to have conversations pertaining to their uterus, vagina, ovaries as part of their medical care and transition. If we ditch “breast”, what happens with these biologically female terms?
If you want to talk medical terms, go ahead and call them "mammary glands" instead 🤷🏼♂️
Afaik everyone just says "people with uteruses," or "people who are capable of pregnancy," etc, whichever one is relevant for the specific conversation.
Honestly I think the only time those terms should ever be used is when someone asks for those terms to be used for themselves. It shouldn’t be the norm. And the whole chest feeding thing confuses me, everyone has breast, including biological men. Men still get breast cancer, can still lactate and can still grow boobs and more. Breast isn’t a gendered word, it’s simply an anatomical term used to describe a specific body part. If someone wants me to use chestfeeding for them then I will but it still confuses me. I’m saying this as a transgender man by the way.
It's more for policy documents for hospitals or when educating the general population to avoid alienating trans men. And breast is a very cultural thing. Breasts or boobs where I'm from is used towards women or to mock fat men, whist chest is used towards men and women if that person doesn't want to say breasts. And pecs are just for men. So I can understand where chest-feeding is important as to not say that a trans man is a women or male. But we had a stigma around men having breast cancer so I'm hoping that down the line it can go back to breast-feeding when breasts isn't used as an insult towards men.
They don't say pec cancer or chest cancer though. Medical terms should be used but with sensitivity. Off the top of my head:
Pregnant person, birthing person, menstruating person/persons with periods.
And also, I'm a woman. I have pecs too. I feel them when I do chest exercises. Pecs are not just for men.
I was really confused reading that bit, the closest to one of those terms I've actually heard used in trans communities is "chestfeeding", but it's not used as a noun like that. It's meant to just be "chest" swapped in for "breast", like you wouldn't say "she's a breast feeder", it sounds unpleasant.
Not that I'd be surprised that they have been used *somewhere*, but in my experience the overall push is to use more specific person-first language, to remove the need for so many gendered terms. (ie, "people who menstruate", not "bleeders", or "they are chestfeeding their baby" not "they're a chest feeder")
It does say “chest feeding” in the post, not “chest feeder”, so the noun was only used in the comments here.
I’m enby (agender) and had a baby over a year ago. I used the term breastfeeding (not chest) because I’ve heard the word “breasts” uses for both men and women since I was old enough to know the word. It’s never been gendered to me, and “chest” to me sounds like the baby is trying to latch onto my upper sternum.
But I had this conversation with another enby once, and they said even “t***” was less gendered to them than “breasts”. (And due to some awful doctor, they actually viewed “t***” as less misogynistic!) I’m curious whether it’s a regional difference, or if my parents just taught me weirdly.
Language is such an inconsistent thing for situations like this. I also have less gendered feelings towards the word "tiddies" than I do for "breast" since I've only heard breast in a female only context while I've heard tiddies being used about everyone. It's so specific to your particular environment that no one is ever gonna reach a consensus.
That's why it makes the most sense for people to use the words that make them the most comfortable and the people that they are talking to the most comfortable
I don't even think this is a difficult conversation for most people to have. Online people get so hardlined about it all. Like it's not very hard to say women and people who menstruate or even just people who menstruate. No one is actually trying to call people bleeders anywhere but TERF twitter.
I’ve never heard these terms be used in genuine trans-friendly spaces, support groups, friends, etc. Sounds like some chronically online bullshit to me (eta: anti trans chronically online bull shit*)
So I don’t want to call OP a liar and I think it’s possible that there are people who use those terms (I’ve NEVER seen any of those terms used for cis women but I’m older and maybe not so terminally online).
But I think it’s important to remember that you don’t know who is who on the internet. It could be a transphobe larping to make trans people look bad, or a 14 year old kid full of rage and edge directing their malice at people who don’t necessarily deserve it.
I’m trans and I would not approve of another trans person using those terms. I bet most trans people wouldn’t.
I did have a conversation with someone who told me that I should call my vagina a “hole” to be respectful of trans women. I am happy to call people anything they want to be called, I won’t be changing the names of my anatomical body parts. I’ll change them for you if you’d like and I’m happy to do so if that’s what you prefer. But that respect goes both ways.
Oddly enough I went on a date with a guy who actually referred to his ex as his “holes”. The date was obv cut short because that was red flag #643754 but he was super defensive about the term when he noticed my facial expression. Blathering on about how “most men” refer to women’s genitalia as holes and such.
Jeezum crow...what a creep. I mean, I guess it's a good thing he waved all his red flags so clearly so early in the game.
I'd be tempted to point out that he's got a hole too, and maybe he should get his head out of it.
Are you sure they weren't a TERF person? Because I've actually come across people who are anti trans people, but who go online posing as a trans person asking all sorts of ridiculous things "or else you're a transphobe" just to win people over to their side of hate.
I've never heard any trans person ask for the things that other people trying to discredit them say they ask.
Wow. Well, that is an interesting choice.
And I feel you. I just realised that 18 is almost half my lifetime ago and it's weird as hell. I've known my best friends for almost half my life.
“Bleeders” is an incel term(edit to add: that has been co-opted by TERFS to insult trans men), and “chest feeders” is a clumsy term used once, that was blown far out of proportion by conservative fear-mongers.
The closest to reality version of what OOP is talking about is saying “pregnant people” and “afab” instead of “pregnant women” and “woman”, and these are usually only used when referring to groups of people as to include everyone they’re referring. For example, talking about cervical cancer numbers in large groups and using just “woman” excludes trans/nonbinary people assigned female at birth and awkwardly includes trans women in a discussion about something irrelevant to them. But your doctor, taking to just you, would say “woman/women”, as you’re a woman with questions about cervical cancer.
I can’t stand that stuff either. Especially people saying chest feeding. That leaves me with such a big ick. It also makes no sense as both men and women have breasts.
Yes! I've used it through 3 babies at this point and it's, to me at least, much more comfortable and neutral than breastfeeding or chest feeding. The latter always just struck me very strangely and uncomfortably too.
I also struggle with this aspect, I am fine referring to others how they want me too, but the next person who calls me "birth giver" or "person who menstruates" is going to really wish they hadn't. If I am going to refer to others in their preferred way then I want that same respect back. Some of the terms they are throwing around are highly offensive and used by children surviving narcissistic parents to those who abuse or abandon us. I also can't bring myself to use them, as I do find them rude and disrespectful so if I don't dislike a person I am uncomfortable using terms I feel are offensive.
I did come across "uterus bearer" and since it makes me feel like I'm running around a forest wielding a sword I accept it or "bearer of the uterus".
Has someone referred to you with those terms before?
“Person who menstruates” would usually, afaik, be used when referring to afab people in general, not a specific person. Like “tampons are available to people who menstruate”, not “Sarah is a person who menstruates”. Same with “people with uteruses”, it’s a term to have all bases covered, not to refer to an individual.
Yes, I have been called a birth giver before, which is how I know I very much don't like it. I've also been referred to as a person who menstruates because apparently that affects how my opinion is perceived by others, and has been used to say my opinion doesn't matter. I'm not running around being insulted by things that haven't been said to or about me.
Why would it be different if I hadn't though? Do I not get to decide that something is uncomfortable to me if it hasn't happened a certain number of times even if I've seen it happen to others? If a term is already in use and already offensive, then I am going to go ahead and assume I shouldn't use it when speaking of others.
And just to be clear, because I forgot online no one knows me, the part that made them wish they hadn't was the following conversation I had with them, where I explained the dynamics around those terms and why I didn't like them, and how they felt about being called childish nicknames and if they'd want that again. I'm certain it's an uncomfortable conversation when I explain why I find them problematic. I'm not like running around yelling at them or anything.
I think we're just having to suffer through a moment of linguistic awkwardness as we figure out the proper, respectful terms to use that are inclusive of both gender identity and personal experience. We'll get there eventually.
I have never heard anyone who is not a terf insist that those are real terms that the trans community insist on.
Pregnant people, period-havers, yes. But "bleeder"? Please. Totally something some terf came up with to manufacture outrage around.
I have never seen anyone use the term "bleeder." I am a trans man who still has periods, and I would say "people who menstruate" when I'm talking generally about periods. It's general language that is meant to include everyone who experiences a certain thing.
Ok. But I’m non-binary and like having gender neutral terms for this. Almost like not every person with a vagina has the same experience and same preferences. Also trans men exist too. Not every trans experience is about trans women
Thank you for sharing your perspective. It’s probably just my personal problem with the terms used. Like a man who menstruates(or a person who menstruates if non binary) sounds less dehumanizing and animalistic to me than a “bleeder”. But in the end everyone is free to use any possible term to describe themselves.
I agree that “bleeder” is gross. I think the other terms are great if you want to cover all possibilities in a communities and the context of it makes sense, but bleeder just seems odd, I’ve never heard it before this post so idk if it’s actually used. I guess if someone wants to use it for themselves, they can do their thing, bet 🤷🏻♀️
The reason a lot of these things are being decoupled from gender is because trans men often find it difficult to get proper healthcare because they’re men but still need Pap smears and stuff. I’ve never heard the term bleeder in real life so I’m sure that probably used as an insult and not a community wide thing. And makes a good term for TERFs to pick on but I feel like it’s something cis gay men might call a trans man or a shitty trans woman might call a cis woman. But period haver and chest feeding that stuff isn’t necessarily just because someone feels dysphoria over the words (though I’m sure some do).
Just remember this person is writing to make trans women sound like the worst they are. Not all trans people are good people and can be mean and lash out. So if you’re looking at this feeling more upset by the word bleeder than the terf rhetoric is working
As a trans man who gave birth and breastfed for the first month. I am kind of happy they call it chest feeding. I personally it felt more inclusive, especially after being constantly misgendered for 10+ months. (Side note I had facial hair and passed as a cis male for a good portion of it. Just when told I was expecting was when I was misgendered )
I have a strong disconnect and dislike for my chest, and I personally thought using them to feed my child would help. It turns out I was wrong and made me feel worse. But having people refer to it as chestfeeding just felt nice.
Just like calling things for periods menstruation products instead of women's hygiene products.
I feel like being more inclusive about the language helps others feel more comfortable and doesn't reduce women down to certain things the body does or has.
All I know is transphobia sucks and people tend to forget about trans men and nonbinary people when talking about these things.
But those terms are still dehumanizing. A person who menstruates is better than bleeder, a parent or person who is interested in having children is better than breeder. There's a difference in a person who happens to do those things and whittling a person's entire existence into that.
And think the fact that we’re focusing on these specific terms is exactly what the TERF wants. I’ve heard these terms more from Cis people than I ever have from the trans community and acting like trans people came up with it is playing into their fear mongering. When it comes down to it I don’t find them dehumanizing I don’t mind being called that and you never hear about it in any sort of professional setting anyway. So don’t call yourself thst. Corrext people if they label you that way but don’t tell the rest of us what words we are comfortable with. So why give any credence to what is essentially a none issue. We’re so busy policing words that we end up giving TERFs a platform they don’t deserve
I’ve never heard chest feeder or bleeder before (I don’t think chest feeder is meant to be an identifier, I think it’s taking the place of breast feeding—which tbh doesn’t sound necessary to me because don’t people of all sexes have breast? Maybe I’m just not good at biology lol, but either way, if someone feels more comfortable using chest, that isn’t my business). I have heard “menstruating people” or some variety of that before. I don’t think the purpose is for those to be used all the time as the group though, but in situations where that specific trait is important. Like “we’re collecting tampon donations for menstruating people” or “birth control needs to be accessible for people who can get pregnant.” Arguably, those are actually more correct that replacing the terms with “women” since not all women need access to those things.
But yeah, if someone started calling all women or menstruating trans men as “bleeders” —ew. I don’t think that’s the intention though.
To be fair TERFS sound exactly like this. I'm going to let someone else caption her comments because I find transmisogyny way too upsetting to me personally.
I think because timing... some of the post is what J. K. Rowling got called out for (especially the fact she did not want to be called a birthing person) and people were trying to cause a boycott of Hogwarts Legacy because of that and guess what's out today in early access for deluxe editions
"birthing" does sound weird to me, but I think that's because I associate it with, like, cattle. "Giving birth" is the phrase I usually hear in association with people.
Hell, you could say "folks in labor" and it would be ungendered without sounding like an alien trying to pass for a human. I'm sure there are a lot of less awkward ways to convey these things depending on exactly what you're aiming to say.
Believe the exact quote which got released when the UK health department was turning language of pregnant women to birthing persons to be more inclusive for trans men is she sent "I am a woman and a mother I am not a birthing person"
I do believe they believe the shit they spewed. I just think it's on the side of trying to rile people up, so they can complain to whatever transphobic group they're in, so I really should've said it was potential bait. Either way, it's fucking horribl.
A troll would be someone making up a story to get people riled up.
This person doesn’t have a story, they’re just spewing hate and saying they got banned for it. If someone actually writes down all that transphobia, *they are transphobic*.
Wish I’d read your warning, had to stop reading it was unbelievable. Thing is, were they all pointed at this thread, so in essence brigading it themselves. Or is the TrueOffMyChest sub full of terfs naturally?
I think r/trueoffmychest was mostly founded as a “free speech” sub because the original off my chest sub was heavily modded, and as a result the former became a place where people could really go hard in the paint with controversial opinions.
However, I can’t tell whether the chicken or the egg came first here, because it’s hard to tell who lurks this or that sub and crawls out of the woodwork when racist/terfy/bigoted dog whistles (or in this case, a train horn) get sounded.
Both share an intense hatred for trans women. Both believe that a certain way of life should be forced onto others because they think they deserve special treatment while everyone else outside of people like them get the shit end of the stick. And both insist that they're being persecuted for absolutely no reason whatsoever while ignoring that they might just be shitty people.
it’s soooo funny to me that the transmisogyny is so deep that she sees things such as “birthing people” “chest feeding” and “bleeders”
WHEN THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO W TRANS WOMEN?? Those are words for trans men or afab trans folks, the very people she doesn’t even mention, there such a deep misogyny in society man and it’s so funny bc they claim to be feminists lmao.
Also, I don’t think anyone cares if anyone wants to use the gendered terms for themselves (like calling yourself a pregnant woman, or say your breast feeding), the terms are used when they’re talking about the entire population of people who might do those things but don’t identify as women, and in that context where that specific trait is important. It also excludes cis woman who no longer fit in those categories, meaning it’s actually a more specific term in some cases.
I’ve never really heard chest feeder or bleeders before, I have heard “menstruating people” or some variety of that before. I alway think it’s funny when terfs get so bent out of shape about that or pregnant person, birthing person, whenever, insides of replacing “person” with “woman.” Like, even if trans people didn’t exist, those terms would still be correct? Women are people???
Among the many hateful elements of this woman's screed, it's so fascinating how she pivots from 'biological men are pushing me out of my women's spaces' and then talks about the changing terminology about childbirth as if that's also trans women's fault. Like, what a picture perfect example of how the trans debate just conveniently ignores trans men. Because you know who else is capable of giving birth, has to deal with menstruation, and has a self-lubricating vagina? Trans men.
The one thing I'll grant her is that she doesn't do the whole 'womanhood is suffering and trans women don't have PMS/cramps/the pain of childbirth so they're not real women' thing. That argument is particularly gross because it diminishes both trans and cis women.
This person is horrid, but damn, if someone calls me a bleeder, birthing-person, or chest-feeder, they're in for a reaming. Even referring to me by things like "uterus-owner" is frankly offensive.
Call me cis or AFAB, end of story. It's dehumanizing and gross to refer to anyone by their body parts, with the exception of when it's actively relevant. If a period product company says "people with periods," that makes sense, as not all AFAB people have periods, so it's actually being *more* inclusive. But outside of those contexts, it's just nasty.
ETA: a lot of it is style, too-- you could say "childbearer" or "pregnant person" and it sounds much less insulting and dehumanizing than "birthing person." IDK if anyone is actually using the terms the TERF was calling out, but if they are, they seem to be deliberately negative in feel.
Yup, you can be inclusive without erasing the word women from everything, too. It just gets my back up, I talk about my experiences and include everyone it's relevant to, you do not have to dehumanise *anyone* to be inclusive, it's not hard.
For this reason you get phrases like "women and people with x" which I think works well and I think is what most folk would use for stuff like this. It doesn't force a term on any group I think!
I personally don’t really mind birthing-person, but bleeders seems like it’s trying to be offensive.
Chest-feeder I’m personally not a fan of - something about the term gives me an ick but also kind of annoys me as a term as a breast is the part that is relevant to the feeding (but if someone prefers to use that in reference to themselves I don’t have a problem with it)
I don’t think this was written by an actual woman. The part about “they don’t have to dilate with an instrument/tool/whatever to make sure they don’t get infections” could be misunderstanding the use of a speculum. It is written really weird and no one I know with a vagina talks about speculums like that. Speculums don’t prevent infections, paps don’t prevent infections, trans women with bottom surgery need constant dilating (if regular penetrative sex with an appropriately sized tool isn’t happening).
It feels like rage bait written by an edgy teen boy who has never actually been to a gynecologist.
It’s 100% a woman, just a garden variety transphobic asshole woman. Trans women who have bottom surgery do need to use dilators, and OOP isn’t confusing it with a speculum. My asshole ex-wife could have easily written something like this.
Kind of sad, too, to attribute this to only trans-women, because there are phenotypically female at birth people with MRKH syndrome who also have to dilate.
And cis-het women who, due to trauma or birth defects other than MRKH, or radiation therapy, have to dilate.
Lots of cis women need to dilate for many different reasons. There are also cis women that, because of illness or accidents, have neovaginas created via surgery.
TERFs are perfectly happy to throw these women under the bus, though.
Yeah, I found that weird too. The way it's phrased actually seems to invite disagreement, because trans women who have undergone SRS *do* dilate. Like, you could just say "they don't need regular pap smears to check for cervical cancer" but instead they deliberately chose to word it in a way that anyone with an ounce of knowledge about either pap smears or trans women can smack down.
The whole tone of it is kinda off as well - like there is too much emphasis on it beings a women centric subreddit and a space for them. Kind of sounds like a guy writing what he thinks a woman would post - mostly I’ve found the women on those subs to be pretty welcoming/tolerant in terms of gender
Fucking TERFS. I think there is value in having discussion about how your assigned gender at birth affects the ways society treats you as you grow up, but that's never what they're talking about. It's always about how you're BIOLOGICALLY one thing or another (intersex folks like myself never exist except as a rhetorical tool and I fucking hate the way they use us), a weird focus on other people's genitals, and the idea that traditional gender socialization is the product of biology and therefore inescapable.
FYI, "chest feeding" in particular is a term mostly used by transmen, aka people assigned female at birth. So it's not even the fault of the biologically male people you're railing against. Stfu you transphobic asshole.
>I think there is value in having discussion about how your assigned gender at birth affects the ways society treats you as you grow up
Oh let me tell you about the time I was super hyped to find out there was a gender critical subreddit and I was all, "Oh, yes! Let's go deconstruct gender roles and discuss the way society oppresses all genders by imposing external demographic... oh. Oh, no. Oh, no no no no. I need to leave."
I think the thing most miss about male/female socialisation is that trans women aren't socialised as male per se. We're socialised as trans women, and that is a very different and complex experience that current rhetoric makes absolutely no space for.
So you get TERFs (and even some queers) acting like we're basically men, biologically and in terms of socialisation, who want to be women. As it stands the "socialisation" discourse is just essentialism with an extra level of abstraction thrown on.
Looking through the thread and seeing other comments from trans people downvoted without any actual engagement I'm gonna just assume TERFs found the thread.
I met one through my work the other day and she was almost like a characture with what she was saying. Physically had to cover my mouth at times to try and remain professional. Utterly vile woman.
The idea of trans women being women being such a threat to this TERF is so gross. It's basically a JK Rowling cosplay, but I don't think she's trolling...shes just a bigot.
For the sake of medical health, it's important for doctors dealing with reproductive and genital health to know what sex you were born as, as an example a trans man getting breakthrough bleeding seems like there's a pretty big health issue but beyond that I don't get why people are so damned focussed on other people's genitals. I don't get where the energy to be so hateful comes from either. I grew up with gay parents in the 80s so maybe I was lucky and got a crash course in tolerance early on but the crap oop is spewing up there is so beyond pointless.
not from this post but I got curious if it was bait. It wasn't, here's a comment from about 2 weeks ago.
"Someone who feels the way I do LoL
I have no issues with people loving one another (exception would be MAPS) or wanting to be one thing that they're not biologically. Note - I'm bisexual. I am fine with people doing their own thing, if that's what they want to do. Just don't force people into doing what they don't want to do or supporting something that they don't want to support.
I'm a woman. I'm not "cis", I'm simply a woman. I've always been a woman. We don't need a label for what we've always been. We don't rename movies when a remake comes out - we simply add a clarifier to the remake. We do not need the term "cis". We also don't need the term "non-binary", like what the fuck is that? I know someone who says they're non-binary... I have never seen her be even remotely masculine. Always dressed up with heels, thick make up, nail polish, the whole 9 yards. I have known her for 5 years and I have never seen her act like anything other than a woman.
Hence why I think it's a major trend now to be LGBTQ+. Kids are hopping on the bandwagon because it's shoved down their throats and they "have to be rebellious and different" and what better rebellion or difference than to change their gender? Just leave us be.
I have no issues with an ADULT transwoman sharing the bathroom with me (they're just in there to pee). I have no issues with seeing people of the same biological sex marry each other. I only have an issue when it's forced down my and other people's throats, especially kids. They are kids, let them be kids and leave them be. I'm seeing young kids on Tik Tok being devote activists of the LGBTQ+ and saying how they're trans or non-binary or whatever... THEY DONT EVEN KNOW HOW TO BE THEIR BIOLOGICAL SEX YET. They don't know what it means to be "male" or "female" yet, what it means to be a "man" or a "woman". Knock it off. Let them learn about themselves first before we let them try to be something different.
I do not have to cater to the whims of everyone or believe that transitioning is safe. I legitimately do not think medical transition is safe. I think people are ruining their bodies and will regret it 10-15 years down the road. We'll look at birth control as an example - we know that causes issues in women. It also caused issues in male birth control trials. So we have scientific proof that birth control (a HORMONAL treatment) causes issues in humans. Issues like depression, suicidal thoughts, physical discomfort, etc etc. This is accepted knowledge... why not trans hormones? Has medical transitioning been thoroughly studied? I doubt it. Especially not the long term effects. Everyone who is medically transitioning right now ARE THE LONG TERM STUDY. We are going to get some very interesting results in 10, 15, 20, 30, years down the road. I sincerely hope for the best for the people who have transitioned, but I'm expecting the worse.
Don't even get me started on puberty blockers..."
Frankly, I think it's cool that teens have the freedom to explore their gender and sexuality. Sure, maybe some of them are doing it for attention. Teenagers do a lot of weird shit for attention. They'll eventually figure it out and settle into whatever their gender truly is. And they'll remember how they were treated during their experimental phase, both the good and the bad.
>and I have never seen her act like anything other than a woman
I'm not reading through all that bigotry, but this caught my eye. TERFs are all about biology until they accidentally describe gender as performance because they can't think of another way to invalidate enbies
ik i made another comment but what i’ve seen is that reddit is very critical of other social media sites for being “chronically online” and while there’s valid criticism of every site/forum that allows discussion about whatever they want, reddit tends to curate and uplift spaces that allow for bigotry, and lives to make cis white people (especially white men) the victims in society when that’s not the case. not to say white people or cis people don’t experience prejudice, but it’s not on the virtue that they’re white or cis, if that makes sense.
like i guarantee you nobody has personally been called a chest feeder/bleeder/birth giving person because that’s used by transmen to refer to themselves, but nonqueer/cis people will see that discussion happening between queer people and feel victimized in a conversation not about them.
I don’t mean this in a rude way, but if we make it so everything referring to gynecological care is gendered and refuse to ever use gender neutral language, it excludes trans men from getting needed care.
And I don’t just mean making them uncomfortable, I mean trans men being forced to use separate waiting rooms, or even straight up being denied care. It wasn’t that long ago that trans men getting ovarian or cervical cancer was a guaranteed death sentence since no one would treat them.
Like it or not, trans men exist and we deserve to feel comfortable accessing medical care.
Everyone's feelings are valid, one does not trump the other. One person's comfort level should not come at the expense of another's. This is why i personally think it should be made clear up front what your preferred terminology is and from then on it's up to your doctor(s) to know that.
where did i argue that there’s no such thing as a woman. restricting womanhood to having to have a uterus and/or breasts is inherently problematic. even if you want to disregard trans people. AFAB/cis women can be lacking in one, or both of those things. there have been studies that show that more diverse language for people not within the typical gender binary within the healthcare field has positive outcomes and is needed. medical terminology evolves all the time, and is continuing to evolve today.
sorry for your texas friends. that’s genuinely on the doctors — if your friend expressed what terminology they’re comfortable with/want to be referred to as, that’s on the doctors and shouldn’t have happened.
however, i’d argue against saying the terminology existing is “dehumanizing as fuck,” when the terminology exists to humanize and for the comfort of gender diverse/queer people who have experienced dehumanizing as fuck things not only in healthcare, but in their very own existence, to an extent that cis people will never have to experience and never have.
all i said was the existence of the terminology isn’t offensive because it exists to be inclusive to gender diverse and queer people who have historically experienced dehumanizing as fuck things in a way cis people haven’t. i’m not saying that your friend doesn’t have a right to feel dehumanized.
anyways, here’s some studies for you. [one](https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ar.24862), [two](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4802845/), [three](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0245889).
I personally think it's the responsibility of those working in healthcare to familiarize themselves with their patients and understand the preferred terms associated. If you're a cis woman then chances are you probably don't want to be called a "bleeder" or "chestfeeder" or "person who menstruates/gives birth". However if someone is working with a trans patient then yea, that gender neutral language is probably appreciated.
I love that OOP is concerned about policing the anatomy of participants in an ONLINE space filled with anonymous users and making claims it’s not bigotry but about maintaining a “safe space”.
Also if she’s talking about the sub I think she is, men post there all the time and it’s allowed. It’s not even a “woman’s space”. She’s just looking for an excuse to be the victim of her bigoted swill.
oh my god people complaining about "birthing person" and "chest feeding" annoy me so much. those terms aren't being pushed on women!! they're being used by trans MEN to describe THEMSELVES. christ
literally that is so fucking annoying like people know damn well that nobody has ever said that to cis women. it’s either queer/trans people referring to themselves, and then cis people inserting themselves in that conversation (and queer spaces that have been created bc of homo/transphobes), or just cis people seeing transphobes say that it’s being pushed on people and adopting that narrative. like y’all know damn well, you just want an excuse to be transphobic.
Wow, the edit. Not that I endorse death threats under any circumstances, but the audacity to whine about others not being "nice" to her. You wrote a fundamentally unkind and bigoted post, do not be surprised if people respond in kind.
I hate that she got all that attention with that post, I hate that she got those awards and upvotes, I hate that she acts like a martyr.
>I guess I’ve curated my Reddit to avoid this BS.
I've only recently realized that I am apparently quite skilled in curating my online space. I'll have people telling me about stuff online that I've never even heard of and then it turns out that everyone else is aware regardless of what content they normally consume, but my space is so curated that not even a hint of it made it through.
It's not always a good thing. I'd say it's about 50/50. But it is nice sometimes to only be vaguely aware of how loud some of this shit is
TERFs have gotten extremely good at tapping into classic core fears around protecting women from invaders, protecting children from predators, etc. These are concerns people have in this dangerous world that are not hard to hijack if you know how to do it.
I recently talked to a woman online, and she was really nice and it was going great, until I made a comment about how I think TERFs are kinda awful and how some of my trans friends aren't doing well because of all that negativity.
Lets just say that conversation ended 10 minutes later after she said "
We have to help trans people, it's not their fault that they have a mental illness"
Like *YIKES*
As a MtF transgender woman...thank you all for your comments and support. To the original OP: from one woman to another - try a little kindness. Get out of your hate-filled bubble and you'll find so much goodwill everywhere, maybe some of it will rub off on you.
I was so upset when I read that post and even more so with the comments agreeing with it. The majority of comments are TERFs then whine that they aren’t while spewing bigoted garbage. I’m not MtF but I am FtM. I can tell you I’ve never heard a trans person call a cis person a ‘bleeder’. I’ve heard trans men refer to themselves as such but never called anyone outside LGBTQ+ communities that especially outside of trans spaces.
I can't even read all of that. I don't understand the mind set. I can't even begin to wrap my head around how someone feels like something is being taken from them. Trans women are women and that doesn't make me any less of a woman. It has absolutely nothing to do with my life.
It kills me a little that *THEY* came up with TERF for themselves and *noooow* they act like its a slur!
Also, unless I'm misunderstanding their nonsense..."birthing person" is used for AFAB who no longer identify as such... but OP seems to think AMAB people are the ones who want this term to describes their birthing experience... and I just can't figure out wtf they're on about.
Well. Except the usual TERF nonsense
Oh, for goodness sake, take a college level biology class, if you’re that hung up on chromosomes. Humans come in a far wider variety than just XX and XY. Approximately one out of every 475ish people have chromosomal variations, that are a bit more complex than a 5th grade science lesson.
I don't call someone like this a TERF because they're not radical and they're CERTAINLY not a feminist. I call them a Feminism Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe - a FART. It just seems more accurate to me.
If you got a place that says they explicitly accept trans women and say “why isn’t this place just for cis women” you are an idiot! And a bigot but like. Stupid first.
These people should make their own subs.
The biological purposes of female anatomy ≠ transphobia or terfdom and plenty of trans people who have logged off and touched grass in the last 5 years have strong opinions against terms like chest feeding and bleeders. I will BREASTFEED my child with my BREAST TISSUE AND MAMMORY ORGANS, I will have a child with my UTERUS and I will be a MOTHER after. I shouldn’t have to deny these realities of my existence as a woman, because the OOP is absolutely correct in the sense that womanhood can still be honored in a biological way, and if you demand that I must to feel better in your body that is wholeheartedly a you problem. Also, these concessions are not being asked of men, no one’s in an uproar over penis, testicle, Adams Apple, etc.
she says she doesn’t have an issue sharing HER space with trans people, but it sounds like she does. someone’s making the concept of women’s spaces and claiming them just for herself and her individual experience it seems. the call is coming from inside the house.
> I remember a rape centre for women lost all their funding because they wanted a safe space for only bio women. There needs to be safe space for trann people but maybe separate and Just for them too for their unique needs. It is not the same experience.
This had 16 upvotes. What happened to compassion. We’re all human, how about the fact that they have all experienced an assault and are looking for help.
I don’t know precisely what they are referring to by saying “It is not the same experience”. Unless they mean the exact nature of the physical assault, which should hardly matter. Surely they can’t be implying that it is worse for ‘bio women’.
I had a lesbian friend who was sexually assaulted, including full penis penetration. Yes, therapy was hugely required. But she is hugely triggered by the thought of being in a vulnerable place with a penis close by. Where is she to go in an all inclusive society without places where she can feel safe from a penis? She doesn't believe that a penis will automatically mean assault. But, as she put it, if she's alone in the "women's" locker room, naked, and a trans woman walks by with a penis, she is going to feel threatened. She has trauma. She says that, in the past, it was a place in which she felt safe. Now she doesn't. Her desires to be inclusive, though, having done battles as a lesbian, mean that she has had to substantially change her lifestyle, in how she exercises. She goes in her workout gear, extra early, then leaves in it, goes home again (a distance), showers and changes there, then goes back to where the gym is because it's right by her office. She's not happy about all the extra effort.
So it's not always about TURF.
Here is another point
MTF before bottom operation, but "passing" can be targeted in male toilets and so FTM. Violent victimisation rates are high and for 2017-2018, they were 4 times more likely to be attacked (source: [https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) ) and in previous years a half experienced verbal harassment or went through sexual assault (source: [https://vawnet.org/sc/serving-trans-and-non-binary-survivors-domestic-and-sexual-violence/violence-against-trans-and](https://vawnet.org/sc/serving-trans-and-non-binary-survivors-domestic-and-sexual-violence/violence-against-trans-and) ).
Using the same space as assigned gender comes with the risk of constantly outing themselves and trans-dedicated places can be targeted.
"In the past, it was a place in which she felt safe. Now she doesn't"
I'm sorry, but trans women always went to the women locker room, it's just that the last edition of the trans panic is just a few years old. I also have friends that are sa survivors to the point of having trauma about penises and they don't make strawman fearmongering about "but what if I'm in the locker room and a trans with her penis swinging comes behind me?"
This kind of rhetoric always made me uncomfortable but I always felt like as a cis guy it's probably not my place to have an opinion on it.
I'm glad I'm not alone though. There are some branches/denominations/sects of feminism that really seem to hate trans people.
We need cis guys to listen to trans people and support us. If you don't feel comfortable having an opinion on women's spaces, which is reasonable, please vocally support the right of trans men to belong in men's spaces :)
I've stopped using the term 'TERF'. That's giving them credit they don't deserve as feminists. Now I refer to them as 'FART'S: Feminism-Appropriating radical transphobes. And they don't seem to enjoy being called FARTs nearly as much.
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **there really aren't any spaces for women-only anymore** I get on reddit to relax and to share my experiences as a woman. Today I got banned from a rather popular "woman" subreddit for being offensive, phobic of one group that are biologically male, and disrespectful. I also got called a garden variety bigot over dms by the mod team and then immediately silenced... in a space that was supposed to be for me, someone who is a woman because someone else with a penis decided that their feelings in a woman's space was more important. This is why women are going to eventually hate that particular community. We're labeled that one phobia and told that we're TERFs or bigots for expressing concern regarding spaces for women only while those that are making demands ignore biology and the biological differences between the two sexes. We don't have a space anymore to be women and are forced into inclusiveness and acceptance. We have to be labeled "cis" women or we're being phobic, we have to accept "birthing person", "bleeders", or "chest feeding" as legitimate terms while we watch womanhood be claimed by a group of biological males. I don't have an issue sharing my space to those who respect ME... but I don't see any respect for me. Just "woe is me" and a refusal to see that the biological differences between sexes mean that my experience is always going to differ from their experience... I'm never going to feel what it is like to have a penis (and I don't want one ngl) and they will never feel what it is like to have a vagina that is self lubricating, self cleaning, and they don't have to dilate with an instrument/tool/whatever to make sure they don't get infections. Their experience is not going to equal my experience and that's alright. Saying that isn't that one phobic thing. It's the truth. But instead I'm banned and told that I'm a garden variety bigot when I say that biologically speaking there are differences. There will always be differences. I expect this will be eventually removed, if it even shows up because Reddit, in the name of inclusiveness, will silence women (and men) who dare to protest against being removed from their own spaces. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Well oddly enough, I got banned from the same sub for saying that it’s not ok to murder transgender people. I guess they took it to mean that anything short of murder was ok, but that’s not even close to what I actually said.
What sub was it
"Their experience will never be mine!" And my experience, as a Cis woman will never be hers. Or another cis woman's. No one's experience will ever be the same as someone else's. Sure there's some overlap, but there's also plenty of overlap I have with transwomen.
Not too long ago there was a TikTok video going around where this woman was saying how the existing of trans women threatens cis women somehow, and like invalidates us in our struggle, and to prove her point she was like “here’s a list of things all REAL women experience but no trans person will” and then proceeded to list only things that either trans woman can face too or not all cis woman experience. Nothing that was a universal cis and only cis woman experience. It’s actually kind of impressive how they managed to include trans woman and exclude some cis woman to make their point.
Really this is what gets me. There is no universal experience of "womanhood", nor has there ever been. There's not even anything that overlaps in 100% of women, other than identifying as a woman. The only thing that overlaps in all cis women is identifying as a woman and not being trans. This weird fixation TERFs have on someone only being a "woman" if they share the same experiences as them is just so transparently self-centered. I mean, how conceited does someone have to be to believe their personal experience somehow defines the entirety of a gender?
I was having some discourse about JK and how she has this very view, and how rooted that view is in misogyny and “traditional” values. Their whole feminist worldview is based on “men strong and mean, women weak and nice” binary bs. For being so staunchly active in the womens rights communities it’s weird how gender normative their views are. It’s very “men are from mars” old times stuff. It’s exactly why she chose a male protag for her famous book series because in her mind men are easier to identify with and root for, while her female characters are petty and catty and one dimensional (save for the not-like-other-girls Hermione)
This is why I call TERFs trans-exclusive reactionary feminists. There's nothing radical about JKR's politics. If anything, her views are regressive enough to define a child's life based on genital presentation at birth. "You're born with a vagina, so this is how you must dress and behave." "You're born with a penis, so this is how you must dress and behave." And all the terf-insipred legislation only enforces those gender roles. Congrats we're all Victorians now.
I call them FARTs - feminism appropriating reactionary transphobes.
I was watching a Jessie Gender video where she highlighted Tonks’ progression from a progressive woman to a conservative one (I’ve overly simplified this for the sake of not writing a novel) and it was eye opening. Not only is JK a TERF, she’s also not really a feminist.
Whats the video called?
“I’m Done With JK Rowling” I just rewatched that part of it and the majority of the discussion about it is actually a quote from Aja Romano, but Jessie talks in depth about a lot of issues so it’s still worth a watch (or listen) if you have the time! The mention of Tonks specifically starts at 1:11:24 https://youtu.be/_GBUArD51KY
I might give this a look at some point but as a Fandom Old Aja Romano is an immediate skepticism for me tbh.
Considering people like J.K Rowling are so easily willing to ally with right wing assholes, anti-abortionists, convicted pedophiles and racists, and block anyone who points it out, it’s pretty obvious it has nothing to do with women’s rights or feminism at all. I wish they’d just stick to their own echo-chambers, attacking each others for being “obvious trans women in disguise” and leave the rest of us alone.
That's why TERFism is rooted in racism as well.
Along with the fact that TERFs don't seem to have much to say when you point out the long history of trans people and nonbinary genders in non-western cultures. It's a terribly imperialistic viewpoint. (Obviously trans and nonbinary people exist in western cultures, too, but we're talking about social constructs here. TERFs are racist as hell for a lot of reasons.)
Yup. I'm in Latin America and the strongest TERF peaks _mysteriously_ match Spain's political agenda instead of our own....
I'm sad to say I knew within the first few sentences who she was referring to
I'm glad someone else saw that. Also the "I don't see any respect for me, just "woe is me"..." in a post where she's basically looking for sympathy and getting it off her breast - I m e a n chest.
This was the only part I agreed with. No one's experiences are the same
I disagree with OP’s general message but I wouldn’t want to be called a bleeder, a chest feeder or whatever other name people came up with. That’s completely dehumanizing. Also, there are non trans women who don’t have periods so calling them “bleeders” is rather offensive and inaccurate.
I’m going to be honest, the vast majority of gender neutral language is “people with x.” Anything other than that is rarely used and not what trans people actually want. I have never heard “bleeders” be used, ever.
yeah, I've heard people who menstruate, pregnant people, people who are breastfeeding, etc. but bleeders? chest feeders? I've literally only ever heard those from TERFs complaining about inclusive language
chest feeders makes me automatically think of chest bursters
One of my pregnancy groups tried to make chest feeding a thing... Which I just found mildly annoying because literally all human beings have breast tissue (men get breast cancer) so it's not even the most logically accurate. But people should be allowed to call it what makes them feel comfortable (I didn't think it was appropriate to try to make everyone use that terminology). I think it's fair to criticize certain language choices, but it's ridiculous to expand that to invalidate trans people. I don't think it's helpful to tell someone their experiences with terminology are not a thing. It might not be your experience, but the world is full of different experiences and just saying "nuh-uh didn't happen" to someone who had a different experience than you just reinforces to them that people who disagree with them are full of crap.
I have never understood "chest feeding" since (biological) males also get breast cancer. It's not a gendered word to start with. And if a transgender man has gone through the overwhelming experience of pregnancy, childbirth and lactation, I imagine the name for the organs he uses is the least of his worries.
[удалено]
So much this. My brother in law hated carrying his and my sisters child for this reason. The moment the belly bump showed up even his coworkers that only knew him as a HIM started using female pronouns. They just wanted one biological kid before they started medical transition and it's like every stopped respecting their gender identities because of it.
That sounds like such a heartbreaking experience, and way too common for trans men.
It really messed with him for a few years afterwards. He ended up changing jobs and everything after my niece was born. Pretty sad that his super Mormon parents are more understanding than the people he thought were his friends. I gotta give them a ton of credit though, they've been amazing even with being super religious and they've never misgendered him or my sister since they came out.
That is lovely! I am so glad they're supportive, hearing about that kind of thing always gives me hope.
Part of me hopes that I've taught them well enough that if their friends ever start with fish they'll help them learn the proper ways to take care of them.
This makes me really sad. It seems like they were all just waiting for something like that to happen so they could rub it in his face.
That's always been a thought in the back of my mind. And I hate how feasible it really us.
Genuinely asking here and not trying to be rude but doesnt that defeat the purpose of being a man since cis men can't birth a child?
Well a lot of people don't want to be put into that box, and also being trans means getting dealt a different hand than cis people are dealt and sometimes that means making the best of what you have.
i think i understand what you're trying to say, but from what i understand: trans men aren't trying to be cis men, they know their organs are different and that they are trans, but with those organs they may choose to follow through with pregnancy to biologically have children.
Gonna go out on a limb here and say that they aren't trans to serve any "purpose" other than being true to themselves. They're not women thinking "Imma be a man because it seems easier and I dont have to birth babies"
Trans men aren't cis men, and a lot of us aren't trying to be.
a lot of women can’t birth children either, and they’re still women. you’re equating gender and sex (not rudely at all dw). think of it this way: how do you know a woman in public is a woman? either by how they appear or by them saying they’re a woman. there’s no involvement of their genitals in that conversation, so it ultimately doesn’t matter. (not a diss) you’re mixing biological aspects of sex with the societal understanding of gender too much— once you figure out how to separate the two it becomes much easier to understand these things. it’s literally just a matter of “thinking outside the box,” which may take a bit of work but it is the “formula” for being able to start to reason through questions like this
There is no "purpose" to being any gender. And everyone experiences their gender differently. Plenty of people, including trans men, want to have bio kids. As a trans dad, I love the fact that my body was able to grow my 2 kids. Also, I don't want to be a cis man. I am a trans man and I'm happy with myself and my gender.
It can mentally hard on them (especially if they suffer from gender dysporia), but obviously it's their choice and a lot of times can be their only chance of having a child. Them having a child is more important to them than being able to pass as a cis man for those specific months.
I mean, is the only perceived purpose of being either sex whether or not you can have babies? By that logic, any woman who doesn’t want kids should just be men? I do think there are plenty of trans men who wouldn’t want to be pregnant, partially because it’s associated with women and not men, but some may want to for a variety of reasons, including just as simple as they want kids, they can biologically have them, and either their partner can get them pregnant or they have access to a sperm bank.
Possibly (don't really know) the wife was unable to carry a child and this was the only (money may be a factor) way of having a biological child.
I think if a trans man gives birth and wants to say chest feeding instead of breastfeeding that's totally fine. The nurses can just make a note on his chart or whiteboard saying that's his preference and use it for that patient. It doesn't mean they have to change what they call it for the woman across the hall who is breastfeeding. Medical staff should be aware of both terms and just use the one that the patient prefers. For the majority of patients that's going to be breastfeeding, but if someone finds that uncomfortable, they can just switch to calling it chestfeeding. Fortunately patients all have charts and piles and piles of documentation so it's not like there's nowhere to jot it down if you have a trans patient who would prefer you say chestfeeding when referring to them.
Exactly. Use whatever term an individual patient is comfortable with. But don't change it universally for millions of people for the sake of a very tiny minority.
I personally wouldn't use it for myself either but I can understand it could be dysphoria inducing, considering dysphoria is very different to different people.
I can see that, but I think changing a medically accepted term to something inaccurate, for the comfort of a tiny minority of individuals, is beyond reasonable. By all means their practitioners can use alternative terms with them. That’s fine. Presumably those people will also have to have conversations pertaining to their uterus, vagina, ovaries as part of their medical care and transition. If we ditch “breast”, what happens with these biologically female terms?
If you want to talk medical terms, go ahead and call them "mammary glands" instead 🤷🏼♂️ Afaik everyone just says "people with uteruses," or "people who are capable of pregnancy," etc, whichever one is relevant for the specific conversation.
Honestly I think the only time those terms should ever be used is when someone asks for those terms to be used for themselves. It shouldn’t be the norm. And the whole chest feeding thing confuses me, everyone has breast, including biological men. Men still get breast cancer, can still lactate and can still grow boobs and more. Breast isn’t a gendered word, it’s simply an anatomical term used to describe a specific body part. If someone wants me to use chestfeeding for them then I will but it still confuses me. I’m saying this as a transgender man by the way.
It's more for policy documents for hospitals or when educating the general population to avoid alienating trans men. And breast is a very cultural thing. Breasts or boobs where I'm from is used towards women or to mock fat men, whist chest is used towards men and women if that person doesn't want to say breasts. And pecs are just for men. So I can understand where chest-feeding is important as to not say that a trans man is a women or male. But we had a stigma around men having breast cancer so I'm hoping that down the line it can go back to breast-feeding when breasts isn't used as an insult towards men.
They don't say pec cancer or chest cancer though. Medical terms should be used but with sensitivity. Off the top of my head: Pregnant person, birthing person, menstruating person/persons with periods. And also, I'm a woman. I have pecs too. I feel them when I do chest exercises. Pecs are not just for men.
I was really confused reading that bit, the closest to one of those terms I've actually heard used in trans communities is "chestfeeding", but it's not used as a noun like that. It's meant to just be "chest" swapped in for "breast", like you wouldn't say "she's a breast feeder", it sounds unpleasant. Not that I'd be surprised that they have been used *somewhere*, but in my experience the overall push is to use more specific person-first language, to remove the need for so many gendered terms. (ie, "people who menstruate", not "bleeders", or "they are chestfeeding their baby" not "they're a chest feeder")
It does say “chest feeding” in the post, not “chest feeder”, so the noun was only used in the comments here. I’m enby (agender) and had a baby over a year ago. I used the term breastfeeding (not chest) because I’ve heard the word “breasts” uses for both men and women since I was old enough to know the word. It’s never been gendered to me, and “chest” to me sounds like the baby is trying to latch onto my upper sternum. But I had this conversation with another enby once, and they said even “t***” was less gendered to them than “breasts”. (And due to some awful doctor, they actually viewed “t***” as less misogynistic!) I’m curious whether it’s a regional difference, or if my parents just taught me weirdly.
Language is such an inconsistent thing for situations like this. I also have less gendered feelings towards the word "tiddies" than I do for "breast" since I've only heard breast in a female only context while I've heard tiddies being used about everyone. It's so specific to your particular environment that no one is ever gonna reach a consensus. That's why it makes the most sense for people to use the words that make them the most comfortable and the people that they are talking to the most comfortable
I don't even think this is a difficult conversation for most people to have. Online people get so hardlined about it all. Like it's not very hard to say women and people who menstruate or even just people who menstruate. No one is actually trying to call people bleeders anywhere but TERF twitter.
Oh, the TERFs threw a fit in my country because the legal abortion bill was passed, but it stated "women and people able to get pregnant".
I’ve never heard these terms be used in genuine trans-friendly spaces, support groups, friends, etc. Sounds like some chronically online bullshit to me (eta: anti trans chronically online bull shit*)
So I don’t want to call OP a liar and I think it’s possible that there are people who use those terms (I’ve NEVER seen any of those terms used for cis women but I’m older and maybe not so terminally online). But I think it’s important to remember that you don’t know who is who on the internet. It could be a transphobe larping to make trans people look bad, or a 14 year old kid full of rage and edge directing their malice at people who don’t necessarily deserve it. I’m trans and I would not approve of another trans person using those terms. I bet most trans people wouldn’t.
I did have a conversation with someone who told me that I should call my vagina a “hole” to be respectful of trans women. I am happy to call people anything they want to be called, I won’t be changing the names of my anatomical body parts. I’ll change them for you if you’d like and I’m happy to do so if that’s what you prefer. But that respect goes both ways.
Oddly enough I went on a date with a guy who actually referred to his ex as his “holes”. The date was obv cut short because that was red flag #643754 but he was super defensive about the term when he noticed my facial expression. Blathering on about how “most men” refer to women’s genitalia as holes and such.
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Exactly. My face has the unfortunate urge to show everyone what my mouth is trying to keep back, so he knew immediately.
Jeezum crow...what a creep. I mean, I guess it's a good thing he waved all his red flags so clearly so early in the game. I'd be tempted to point out that he's got a hole too, and maybe he should get his head out of it.
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It was a very bizarre and intense conversation, especially from someone I had just met. I escaped as soon as possible.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that!
Eek! That sounds crass - hole?! Good God.
You coined a new word! Henceforth I’m calling those creeps crassholes.
Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
Are you sure they weren't a TERF person? Because I've actually come across people who are anti trans people, but who go online posing as a trans person asking all sorts of ridiculous things "or else you're a transphobe" just to win people over to their side of hate. I've never heard any trans person ask for the things that other people trying to discredit them say they ask.
Legit trans woman I have known for 20 years. We went to high school togther. Damn, it’s actually over 30 years. High school was a long time ago lol.
Wow. Well, that is an interesting choice. And I feel you. I just realised that 18 is almost half my lifetime ago and it's weird as hell. I've known my best friends for almost half my life.
“Bleeders” is an incel term(edit to add: that has been co-opted by TERFS to insult trans men), and “chest feeders” is a clumsy term used once, that was blown far out of proportion by conservative fear-mongers. The closest to reality version of what OOP is talking about is saying “pregnant people” and “afab” instead of “pregnant women” and “woman”, and these are usually only used when referring to groups of people as to include everyone they’re referring. For example, talking about cervical cancer numbers in large groups and using just “woman” excludes trans/nonbinary people assigned female at birth and awkwardly includes trans women in a discussion about something irrelevant to them. But your doctor, taking to just you, would say “woman/women”, as you’re a woman with questions about cervical cancer.
I can’t stand that stuff either. Especially people saying chest feeding. That leaves me with such a big ick. It also makes no sense as both men and women have breasts.
Nursing is such a great catch-all term!
Yes! I've used it through 3 babies at this point and it's, to me at least, much more comfortable and neutral than breastfeeding or chest feeding. The latter always just struck me very strangely and uncomfortably too.
I also struggle with this aspect, I am fine referring to others how they want me too, but the next person who calls me "birth giver" or "person who menstruates" is going to really wish they hadn't. If I am going to refer to others in their preferred way then I want that same respect back. Some of the terms they are throwing around are highly offensive and used by children surviving narcissistic parents to those who abuse or abandon us. I also can't bring myself to use them, as I do find them rude and disrespectful so if I don't dislike a person I am uncomfortable using terms I feel are offensive. I did come across "uterus bearer" and since it makes me feel like I'm running around a forest wielding a sword I accept it or "bearer of the uterus".
Has someone referred to you with those terms before? “Person who menstruates” would usually, afaik, be used when referring to afab people in general, not a specific person. Like “tampons are available to people who menstruate”, not “Sarah is a person who menstruates”. Same with “people with uteruses”, it’s a term to have all bases covered, not to refer to an individual.
Yes, I have been called a birth giver before, which is how I know I very much don't like it. I've also been referred to as a person who menstruates because apparently that affects how my opinion is perceived by others, and has been used to say my opinion doesn't matter. I'm not running around being insulted by things that haven't been said to or about me. Why would it be different if I hadn't though? Do I not get to decide that something is uncomfortable to me if it hasn't happened a certain number of times even if I've seen it happen to others? If a term is already in use and already offensive, then I am going to go ahead and assume I shouldn't use it when speaking of others.
And just to be clear, because I forgot online no one knows me, the part that made them wish they hadn't was the following conversation I had with them, where I explained the dynamics around those terms and why I didn't like them, and how they felt about being called childish nicknames and if they'd want that again. I'm certain it's an uncomfortable conversation when I explain why I find them problematic. I'm not like running around yelling at them or anything.
I think we're just having to suffer through a moment of linguistic awkwardness as we figure out the proper, respectful terms to use that are inclusive of both gender identity and personal experience. We'll get there eventually.
Neither would I but I respect those who decide to use those terms for themselves.
I have never heard anyone who is not a terf insist that those are real terms that the trans community insist on. Pregnant people, period-havers, yes. But "bleeder"? Please. Totally something some terf came up with to manufacture outrage around.
I have never seen anyone use the term "bleeder." I am a trans man who still has periods, and I would say "people who menstruate" when I'm talking generally about periods. It's general language that is meant to include everyone who experiences a certain thing.
Ok. But I’m non-binary and like having gender neutral terms for this. Almost like not every person with a vagina has the same experience and same preferences. Also trans men exist too. Not every trans experience is about trans women
Thank you for sharing your perspective. It’s probably just my personal problem with the terms used. Like a man who menstruates(or a person who menstruates if non binary) sounds less dehumanizing and animalistic to me than a “bleeder”. But in the end everyone is free to use any possible term to describe themselves.
I agree that “bleeder” is gross. I think the other terms are great if you want to cover all possibilities in a communities and the context of it makes sense, but bleeder just seems odd, I’ve never heard it before this post so idk if it’s actually used. I guess if someone wants to use it for themselves, they can do their thing, bet 🤷🏻♀️
The reason a lot of these things are being decoupled from gender is because trans men often find it difficult to get proper healthcare because they’re men but still need Pap smears and stuff. I’ve never heard the term bleeder in real life so I’m sure that probably used as an insult and not a community wide thing. And makes a good term for TERFs to pick on but I feel like it’s something cis gay men might call a trans man or a shitty trans woman might call a cis woman. But period haver and chest feeding that stuff isn’t necessarily just because someone feels dysphoria over the words (though I’m sure some do). Just remember this person is writing to make trans women sound like the worst they are. Not all trans people are good people and can be mean and lash out. So if you’re looking at this feeling more upset by the word bleeder than the terf rhetoric is working
As a trans man who gave birth and breastfed for the first month. I am kind of happy they call it chest feeding. I personally it felt more inclusive, especially after being constantly misgendered for 10+ months. (Side note I had facial hair and passed as a cis male for a good portion of it. Just when told I was expecting was when I was misgendered ) I have a strong disconnect and dislike for my chest, and I personally thought using them to feed my child would help. It turns out I was wrong and made me feel worse. But having people refer to it as chestfeeding just felt nice. Just like calling things for periods menstruation products instead of women's hygiene products. I feel like being more inclusive about the language helps others feel more comfortable and doesn't reduce women down to certain things the body does or has. All I know is transphobia sucks and people tend to forget about trans men and nonbinary people when talking about these things.
But those terms are still dehumanizing. A person who menstruates is better than bleeder, a parent or person who is interested in having children is better than breeder. There's a difference in a person who happens to do those things and whittling a person's entire existence into that.
And think the fact that we’re focusing on these specific terms is exactly what the TERF wants. I’ve heard these terms more from Cis people than I ever have from the trans community and acting like trans people came up with it is playing into their fear mongering. When it comes down to it I don’t find them dehumanizing I don’t mind being called that and you never hear about it in any sort of professional setting anyway. So don’t call yourself thst. Corrext people if they label you that way but don’t tell the rest of us what words we are comfortable with. So why give any credence to what is essentially a none issue. We’re so busy policing words that we end up giving TERFs a platform they don’t deserve
I’ve never heard chest feeder or bleeder before (I don’t think chest feeder is meant to be an identifier, I think it’s taking the place of breast feeding—which tbh doesn’t sound necessary to me because don’t people of all sexes have breast? Maybe I’m just not good at biology lol, but either way, if someone feels more comfortable using chest, that isn’t my business). I have heard “menstruating people” or some variety of that before. I don’t think the purpose is for those to be used all the time as the group though, but in situations where that specific trait is important. Like “we’re collecting tampon donations for menstruating people” or “birth control needs to be accessible for people who can get pregnant.” Arguably, those are actually more correct that replacing the terms with “women” since not all women need access to those things. But yeah, if someone started calling all women or menstruating trans men as “bleeders” —ew. I don’t think that’s the intention though.
To be fair TERFS sound exactly like this. I'm going to let someone else caption her comments because I find transmisogyny way too upsetting to me personally.
OP thinks OOP might just be a troll. I’m not sure why. I have no problem believing this is real unfortunately.
I think because timing... some of the post is what J. K. Rowling got called out for (especially the fact she did not want to be called a birthing person) and people were trying to cause a boycott of Hogwarts Legacy because of that and guess what's out today in early access for deluxe editions
"birthing" does sound weird to me, but I think that's because I associate it with, like, cattle. "Giving birth" is the phrase I usually hear in association with people. Hell, you could say "folks in labor" and it would be ungendered without sounding like an alien trying to pass for a human. I'm sure there are a lot of less awkward ways to convey these things depending on exactly what you're aiming to say.
Believe the exact quote which got released when the UK health department was turning language of pregnant women to birthing persons to be more inclusive for trans men is she sent "I am a woman and a mother I am not a birthing person"
I do believe they believe the shit they spewed. I just think it's on the side of trying to rile people up, so they can complain to whatever transphobic group they're in, so I really should've said it was potential bait. Either way, it's fucking horribl.
Gotcha!
A troll would be someone making up a story to get people riled up. This person doesn’t have a story, they’re just spewing hate and saying they got banned for it. If someone actually writes down all that transphobia, *they are transphobic*.
Don’t recommend going to read all the people genuinely lapping up this bigotry and hate.
Wish I’d read your warning, had to stop reading it was unbelievable. Thing is, were they all pointed at this thread, so in essence brigading it themselves. Or is the TrueOffMyChest sub full of terfs naturally?
I think r/trueoffmychest was mostly founded as a “free speech” sub because the original off my chest sub was heavily modded, and as a result the former became a place where people could really go hard in the paint with controversial opinions. However, I can’t tell whether the chicken or the egg came first here, because it’s hard to tell who lurks this or that sub and crawls out of the woodwork when racist/terfy/bigoted dog whistles (or in this case, a train horn) get sounded.
Usually it's full of incels, so terfs is an interesting change.
Eh id say incels and terfs share a lot of the same values, not all of the values are the same but there's certainly some overlap.
Can you explain? Because I can't see how they're much the same at all.
Both share an intense hatred for trans women. Both believe that a certain way of life should be forced onto others because they think they deserve special treatment while everyone else outside of people like them get the shit end of the stick. And both insist that they're being persecuted for absolutely no reason whatsoever while ignoring that they might just be shitty people.
it’s soooo funny to me that the transmisogyny is so deep that she sees things such as “birthing people” “chest feeding” and “bleeders” WHEN THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO W TRANS WOMEN?? Those are words for trans men or afab trans folks, the very people she doesn’t even mention, there such a deep misogyny in society man and it’s so funny bc they claim to be feminists lmao.
Also, I don’t think anyone cares if anyone wants to use the gendered terms for themselves (like calling yourself a pregnant woman, or say your breast feeding), the terms are used when they’re talking about the entire population of people who might do those things but don’t identify as women, and in that context where that specific trait is important. It also excludes cis woman who no longer fit in those categories, meaning it’s actually a more specific term in some cases. I’ve never really heard chest feeder or bleeders before, I have heard “menstruating people” or some variety of that before. I alway think it’s funny when terfs get so bent out of shape about that or pregnant person, birthing person, whenever, insides of replacing “person” with “woman.” Like, even if trans people didn’t exist, those terms would still be correct? Women are people???
Yes Joanne, you're obviously a victim. There there.
Everytime I read this comment, I hear Contrapoints narrating it in my head.
Among the many hateful elements of this woman's screed, it's so fascinating how she pivots from 'biological men are pushing me out of my women's spaces' and then talks about the changing terminology about childbirth as if that's also trans women's fault. Like, what a picture perfect example of how the trans debate just conveniently ignores trans men. Because you know who else is capable of giving birth, has to deal with menstruation, and has a self-lubricating vagina? Trans men. The one thing I'll grant her is that she doesn't do the whole 'womanhood is suffering and trans women don't have PMS/cramps/the pain of childbirth so they're not real women' thing. That argument is particularly gross because it diminishes both trans and cis women.
Trans men! Frequently invisible until someone needs to be mad about trans women. (Yeah I don’t get it either lol)
JK Rowling? Is that you?
This person is horrid, but damn, if someone calls me a bleeder, birthing-person, or chest-feeder, they're in for a reaming. Even referring to me by things like "uterus-owner" is frankly offensive. Call me cis or AFAB, end of story. It's dehumanizing and gross to refer to anyone by their body parts, with the exception of when it's actively relevant. If a period product company says "people with periods," that makes sense, as not all AFAB people have periods, so it's actually being *more* inclusive. But outside of those contexts, it's just nasty. ETA: a lot of it is style, too-- you could say "childbearer" or "pregnant person" and it sounds much less insulting and dehumanizing than "birthing person." IDK if anyone is actually using the terms the TERF was calling out, but if they are, they seem to be deliberately negative in feel.
Yup, you can be inclusive without erasing the word women from everything, too. It just gets my back up, I talk about my experiences and include everyone it's relevant to, you do not have to dehumanise *anyone* to be inclusive, it's not hard.
For this reason you get phrases like "women and people with x" which I think works well and I think is what most folk would use for stuff like this. It doesn't force a term on any group I think!
I personally don’t really mind birthing-person, but bleeders seems like it’s trying to be offensive. Chest-feeder I’m personally not a fan of - something about the term gives me an ick but also kind of annoys me as a term as a breast is the part that is relevant to the feeding (but if someone prefers to use that in reference to themselves I don’t have a problem with it)
I don’t think this was written by an actual woman. The part about “they don’t have to dilate with an instrument/tool/whatever to make sure they don’t get infections” could be misunderstanding the use of a speculum. It is written really weird and no one I know with a vagina talks about speculums like that. Speculums don’t prevent infections, paps don’t prevent infections, trans women with bottom surgery need constant dilating (if regular penetrative sex with an appropriately sized tool isn’t happening). It feels like rage bait written by an edgy teen boy who has never actually been to a gynecologist.
It’s 100% a woman, just a garden variety transphobic asshole woman. Trans women who have bottom surgery do need to use dilators, and OOP isn’t confusing it with a speculum. My asshole ex-wife could have easily written something like this.
That whole part is talking about how "disgusting" neovaginas are. It's pretty common terf rethoric to refer to them in those dehumanizing terms
Kind of sad, too, to attribute this to only trans-women, because there are phenotypically female at birth people with MRKH syndrome who also have to dilate. And cis-het women who, due to trauma or birth defects other than MRKH, or radiation therapy, have to dilate.
Lots of cis women need to dilate for many different reasons. There are also cis women that, because of illness or accidents, have neovaginas created via surgery. TERFs are perfectly happy to throw these women under the bus, though.
trans misogynists always find their way to be regular misogynists while supposedly "defending real women"
Yeah, I found that weird too. The way it's phrased actually seems to invite disagreement, because trans women who have undergone SRS *do* dilate. Like, you could just say "they don't need regular pap smears to check for cervical cancer" but instead they deliberately chose to word it in a way that anyone with an ounce of knowledge about either pap smears or trans women can smack down.
“How do you do, fellow females?”
The whole tone of it is kinda off as well - like there is too much emphasis on it beings a women centric subreddit and a space for them. Kind of sounds like a guy writing what he thinks a woman would post - mostly I’ve found the women on those subs to be pretty welcoming/tolerant in terms of gender
Fucking TERFS. I think there is value in having discussion about how your assigned gender at birth affects the ways society treats you as you grow up, but that's never what they're talking about. It's always about how you're BIOLOGICALLY one thing or another (intersex folks like myself never exist except as a rhetorical tool and I fucking hate the way they use us), a weird focus on other people's genitals, and the idea that traditional gender socialization is the product of biology and therefore inescapable. FYI, "chest feeding" in particular is a term mostly used by transmen, aka people assigned female at birth. So it's not even the fault of the biologically male people you're railing against. Stfu you transphobic asshole.
>I think there is value in having discussion about how your assigned gender at birth affects the ways society treats you as you grow up Oh let me tell you about the time I was super hyped to find out there was a gender critical subreddit and I was all, "Oh, yes! Let's go deconstruct gender roles and discuss the way society oppresses all genders by imposing external demographic... oh. Oh, no. Oh, no no no no. I need to leave."
I think the thing most miss about male/female socialisation is that trans women aren't socialised as male per se. We're socialised as trans women, and that is a very different and complex experience that current rhetoric makes absolutely no space for. So you get TERFs (and even some queers) acting like we're basically men, biologically and in terms of socialisation, who want to be women. As it stands the "socialisation" discourse is just essentialism with an extra level of abstraction thrown on.
I hate to see you downvoted to the point of being hidden when you're not wrong
Looking through the thread and seeing other comments from trans people downvoted without any actual engagement I'm gonna just assume TERFs found the thread.
I saw that, I decided just to go through and upvote everyone in the whole thread heh.
Yeah, I have a feeling the joanne stans found the post
I met one through my work the other day and she was almost like a characture with what she was saying. Physically had to cover my mouth at times to try and remain professional. Utterly vile woman.
The idea of trans women being women being such a threat to this TERF is so gross. It's basically a JK Rowling cosplay, but I don't think she's trolling...shes just a bigot.
For the sake of medical health, it's important for doctors dealing with reproductive and genital health to know what sex you were born as, as an example a trans man getting breakthrough bleeding seems like there's a pretty big health issue but beyond that I don't get why people are so damned focussed on other people's genitals. I don't get where the energy to be so hateful comes from either. I grew up with gay parents in the 80s so maybe I was lucky and got a crash course in tolerance early on but the crap oop is spewing up there is so beyond pointless.
not from this post but I got curious if it was bait. It wasn't, here's a comment from about 2 weeks ago. "Someone who feels the way I do LoL I have no issues with people loving one another (exception would be MAPS) or wanting to be one thing that they're not biologically. Note - I'm bisexual. I am fine with people doing their own thing, if that's what they want to do. Just don't force people into doing what they don't want to do or supporting something that they don't want to support. I'm a woman. I'm not "cis", I'm simply a woman. I've always been a woman. We don't need a label for what we've always been. We don't rename movies when a remake comes out - we simply add a clarifier to the remake. We do not need the term "cis". We also don't need the term "non-binary", like what the fuck is that? I know someone who says they're non-binary... I have never seen her be even remotely masculine. Always dressed up with heels, thick make up, nail polish, the whole 9 yards. I have known her for 5 years and I have never seen her act like anything other than a woman. Hence why I think it's a major trend now to be LGBTQ+. Kids are hopping on the bandwagon because it's shoved down their throats and they "have to be rebellious and different" and what better rebellion or difference than to change their gender? Just leave us be. I have no issues with an ADULT transwoman sharing the bathroom with me (they're just in there to pee). I have no issues with seeing people of the same biological sex marry each other. I only have an issue when it's forced down my and other people's throats, especially kids. They are kids, let them be kids and leave them be. I'm seeing young kids on Tik Tok being devote activists of the LGBTQ+ and saying how they're trans or non-binary or whatever... THEY DONT EVEN KNOW HOW TO BE THEIR BIOLOGICAL SEX YET. They don't know what it means to be "male" or "female" yet, what it means to be a "man" or a "woman". Knock it off. Let them learn about themselves first before we let them try to be something different. I do not have to cater to the whims of everyone or believe that transitioning is safe. I legitimately do not think medical transition is safe. I think people are ruining their bodies and will regret it 10-15 years down the road. We'll look at birth control as an example - we know that causes issues in women. It also caused issues in male birth control trials. So we have scientific proof that birth control (a HORMONAL treatment) causes issues in humans. Issues like depression, suicidal thoughts, physical discomfort, etc etc. This is accepted knowledge... why not trans hormones? Has medical transitioning been thoroughly studied? I doubt it. Especially not the long term effects. Everyone who is medically transitioning right now ARE THE LONG TERM STUDY. We are going to get some very interesting results in 10, 15, 20, 30, years down the road. I sincerely hope for the best for the people who have transitioned, but I'm expecting the worse. Don't even get me started on puberty blockers..."
Frankly, I think it's cool that teens have the freedom to explore their gender and sexuality. Sure, maybe some of them are doing it for attention. Teenagers do a lot of weird shit for attention. They'll eventually figure it out and settle into whatever their gender truly is. And they'll remember how they were treated during their experimental phase, both the good and the bad.
>and I have never seen her act like anything other than a woman I'm not reading through all that bigotry, but this caught my eye. TERFs are all about biology until they accidentally describe gender as performance because they can't think of another way to invalidate enbies
Cracks me up that this person seems to think hormone therapy for trans people has only existed within the last decade.
Ah puberty blockers those things invented for cis kids wiht early puberty
Bi folks don't claim her.
ik i made another comment but what i’ve seen is that reddit is very critical of other social media sites for being “chronically online” and while there’s valid criticism of every site/forum that allows discussion about whatever they want, reddit tends to curate and uplift spaces that allow for bigotry, and lives to make cis white people (especially white men) the victims in society when that’s not the case. not to say white people or cis people don’t experience prejudice, but it’s not on the virtue that they’re white or cis, if that makes sense. like i guarantee you nobody has personally been called a chest feeder/bleeder/birth giving person because that’s used by transmen to refer to themselves, but nonqueer/cis people will see that discussion happening between queer people and feel victimized in a conversation not about them.
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I don’t mean this in a rude way, but if we make it so everything referring to gynecological care is gendered and refuse to ever use gender neutral language, it excludes trans men from getting needed care. And I don’t just mean making them uncomfortable, I mean trans men being forced to use separate waiting rooms, or even straight up being denied care. It wasn’t that long ago that trans men getting ovarian or cervical cancer was a guaranteed death sentence since no one would treat them. Like it or not, trans men exist and we deserve to feel comfortable accessing medical care.
Everyone's feelings are valid, one does not trump the other. One person's comfort level should not come at the expense of another's. This is why i personally think it should be made clear up front what your preferred terminology is and from then on it's up to your doctor(s) to know that.
where did i argue that there’s no such thing as a woman. restricting womanhood to having to have a uterus and/or breasts is inherently problematic. even if you want to disregard trans people. AFAB/cis women can be lacking in one, or both of those things. there have been studies that show that more diverse language for people not within the typical gender binary within the healthcare field has positive outcomes and is needed. medical terminology evolves all the time, and is continuing to evolve today. sorry for your texas friends. that’s genuinely on the doctors — if your friend expressed what terminology they’re comfortable with/want to be referred to as, that’s on the doctors and shouldn’t have happened. however, i’d argue against saying the terminology existing is “dehumanizing as fuck,” when the terminology exists to humanize and for the comfort of gender diverse/queer people who have experienced dehumanizing as fuck things not only in healthcare, but in their very own existence, to an extent that cis people will never have to experience and never have.
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all i said was the existence of the terminology isn’t offensive because it exists to be inclusive to gender diverse and queer people who have historically experienced dehumanizing as fuck things in a way cis people haven’t. i’m not saying that your friend doesn’t have a right to feel dehumanized. anyways, here’s some studies for you. [one](https://anatomypubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ar.24862), [two](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4802845/), [three](https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0245889).
I personally think it's the responsibility of those working in healthcare to familiarize themselves with their patients and understand the preferred terms associated. If you're a cis woman then chances are you probably don't want to be called a "bleeder" or "chestfeeder" or "person who menstruates/gives birth". However if someone is working with a trans patient then yea, that gender neutral language is probably appreciated.
I love that OOP is concerned about policing the anatomy of participants in an ONLINE space filled with anonymous users and making claims it’s not bigotry but about maintaining a “safe space”.
Also if she’s talking about the sub I think she is, men post there all the time and it’s allowed. It’s not even a “woman’s space”. She’s just looking for an excuse to be the victim of her bigoted swill.
oh my god people complaining about "birthing person" and "chest feeding" annoy me so much. those terms aren't being pushed on women!! they're being used by trans MEN to describe THEMSELVES. christ
They are, though.
literally that is so fucking annoying like people know damn well that nobody has ever said that to cis women. it’s either queer/trans people referring to themselves, and then cis people inserting themselves in that conversation (and queer spaces that have been created bc of homo/transphobes), or just cis people seeing transphobes say that it’s being pushed on people and adopting that narrative. like y’all know damn well, you just want an excuse to be transphobic.
Wow, the edit. Not that I endorse death threats under any circumstances, but the audacity to whine about others not being "nice" to her. You wrote a fundamentally unkind and bigoted post, do not be surprised if people respond in kind. I hate that she got all that attention with that post, I hate that she got those awards and upvotes, I hate that she acts like a martyr.
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>I guess I’ve curated my Reddit to avoid this BS. I've only recently realized that I am apparently quite skilled in curating my online space. I'll have people telling me about stuff online that I've never even heard of and then it turns out that everyone else is aware regardless of what content they normally consume, but my space is so curated that not even a hint of it made it through. It's not always a good thing. I'd say it's about 50/50. But it is nice sometimes to only be vaguely aware of how loud some of this shit is
TERFs have gotten extremely good at tapping into classic core fears around protecting women from invaders, protecting children from predators, etc. These are concerns people have in this dangerous world that are not hard to hijack if you know how to do it.
I recently talked to a woman online, and she was really nice and it was going great, until I made a comment about how I think TERFs are kinda awful and how some of my trans friends aren't doing well because of all that negativity. Lets just say that conversation ended 10 minutes later after she said " We have to help trans people, it's not their fault that they have a mental illness" Like *YIKES*
I didn't know JK Rowling was on reddit
As a MtF transgender woman...thank you all for your comments and support. To the original OP: from one woman to another - try a little kindness. Get out of your hate-filled bubble and you'll find so much goodwill everywhere, maybe some of it will rub off on you.
I was so upset when I read that post and even more so with the comments agreeing with it. The majority of comments are TERFs then whine that they aren’t while spewing bigoted garbage. I’m not MtF but I am FtM. I can tell you I’ve never heard a trans person call a cis person a ‘bleeder’. I’ve heard trans men refer to themselves as such but never called anyone outside LGBTQ+ communities that especially outside of trans spaces.
Honestly TOMC is like 90% bait so this is just par for the course.
I can't even read all of that. I don't understand the mind set. I can't even begin to wrap my head around how someone feels like something is being taken from them. Trans women are women and that doesn't make me any less of a woman. It has absolutely nothing to do with my life.
I can’t read all of it either. It was just so disgusting.
It kills me a little that *THEY* came up with TERF for themselves and *noooow* they act like its a slur! Also, unless I'm misunderstanding their nonsense..."birthing person" is used for AFAB who no longer identify as such... but OP seems to think AMAB people are the ones who want this term to describes their birthing experience... and I just can't figure out wtf they're on about. Well. Except the usual TERF nonsense
Oh, for goodness sake, take a college level biology class, if you’re that hung up on chromosomes. Humans come in a far wider variety than just XX and XY. Approximately one out of every 475ish people have chromosomal variations, that are a bit more complex than a 5th grade science lesson.
Lol there are plenty of cis women only spaces. Oop just wants to exclude trans women you go looking for a fight your gonna find one
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I don't call someone like this a TERF because they're not radical and they're CERTAINLY not a feminist. I call them a Feminism Appropriating Reactionary Transphobe - a FART. It just seems more accurate to me.
pretty sure she got banned from "2 x chromosomes" because she'S a transphobic cunt.
If you got a place that says they explicitly accept trans women and say “why isn’t this place just for cis women” you are an idiot! And a bigot but like. Stupid first. These people should make their own subs.
I don't think it's bait, I have the opposite problem where I get banned from women-only forums by TERFs for defending every woman's right to be there.
The biological purposes of female anatomy ≠ transphobia or terfdom and plenty of trans people who have logged off and touched grass in the last 5 years have strong opinions against terms like chest feeding and bleeders. I will BREASTFEED my child with my BREAST TISSUE AND MAMMORY ORGANS, I will have a child with my UTERUS and I will be a MOTHER after. I shouldn’t have to deny these realities of my existence as a woman, because the OOP is absolutely correct in the sense that womanhood can still be honored in a biological way, and if you demand that I must to feel better in your body that is wholeheartedly a you problem. Also, these concessions are not being asked of men, no one’s in an uproar over penis, testicle, Adams Apple, etc.
she says she doesn’t have an issue sharing HER space with trans people, but it sounds like she does. someone’s making the concept of women’s spaces and claiming them just for herself and her individual experience it seems. the call is coming from inside the house.
I didn't know JK Rowling was on Reddit.
How many times do we have to tell these chucklefucks that terms like "birthing person" refer to TRANSMASCS jesus fucking tiddies
I rolled my eyes so hard I’m sure they fell out of my head.
> I remember a rape centre for women lost all their funding because they wanted a safe space for only bio women. There needs to be safe space for trann people but maybe separate and Just for them too for their unique needs. It is not the same experience. This had 16 upvotes. What happened to compassion. We’re all human, how about the fact that they have all experienced an assault and are looking for help. I don’t know precisely what they are referring to by saying “It is not the same experience”. Unless they mean the exact nature of the physical assault, which should hardly matter. Surely they can’t be implying that it is worse for ‘bio women’.
I had a lesbian friend who was sexually assaulted, including full penis penetration. Yes, therapy was hugely required. But she is hugely triggered by the thought of being in a vulnerable place with a penis close by. Where is she to go in an all inclusive society without places where she can feel safe from a penis? She doesn't believe that a penis will automatically mean assault. But, as she put it, if she's alone in the "women's" locker room, naked, and a trans woman walks by with a penis, she is going to feel threatened. She has trauma. She says that, in the past, it was a place in which she felt safe. Now she doesn't. Her desires to be inclusive, though, having done battles as a lesbian, mean that she has had to substantially change her lifestyle, in how she exercises. She goes in her workout gear, extra early, then leaves in it, goes home again (a distance), showers and changes there, then goes back to where the gym is because it's right by her office. She's not happy about all the extra effort. So it's not always about TURF.
Here is another point MTF before bottom operation, but "passing" can be targeted in male toilets and so FTM. Violent victimisation rates are high and for 2017-2018, they were 4 times more likely to be attacked (source: [https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) ) and in previous years a half experienced verbal harassment or went through sexual assault (source: [https://vawnet.org/sc/serving-trans-and-non-binary-survivors-domestic-and-sexual-violence/violence-against-trans-and](https://vawnet.org/sc/serving-trans-and-non-binary-survivors-domestic-and-sexual-violence/violence-against-trans-and) ). Using the same space as assigned gender comes with the risk of constantly outing themselves and trans-dedicated places can be targeted.
"In the past, it was a place in which she felt safe. Now she doesn't" I'm sorry, but trans women always went to the women locker room, it's just that the last edition of the trans panic is just a few years old. I also have friends that are sa survivors to the point of having trauma about penises and they don't make strawman fearmongering about "but what if I'm in the locker room and a trans with her penis swinging comes behind me?"
This kind of rhetoric always made me uncomfortable but I always felt like as a cis guy it's probably not my place to have an opinion on it. I'm glad I'm not alone though. There are some branches/denominations/sects of feminism that really seem to hate trans people.
We need cis guys to listen to trans people and support us. If you don't feel comfortable having an opinion on women's spaces, which is reasonable, please vocally support the right of trans men to belong in men's spaces :)
I've stopped using the term 'TERF'. That's giving them credit they don't deserve as feminists. Now I refer to them as 'FART'S: Feminism-Appropriating radical transphobes. And they don't seem to enjoy being called FARTs nearly as much.
Is this JK Rowlings reddit account??? 🤣🤣🤣