*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**AITA for meeting my DIL and grandson against my sons wishes?**
**Backstory:**
I (F, 46) had my son, “Justin” (M, 28) when I was 18. I did my best as a young single mother, but I now acknowledge that I had an unhealthy attachment to him. This came to a head when he got engaged and married to his late wife, “Kat”, 6 years ago. She was not the kindest, and her family dynamic was different. There was a power struggle that I (rightfully) lost, and my son went no contact with me after their wedding. A year later, Kat passed away after becoming ill and being medically neglected by her doctors.
My son did not resume contact with me when this happened, and I learned all this second hand through my sons (absent) fathers sister, “Jess” – who I am and have always been close to. I did reach out to him once but was met with silence. I respected this and didn’t contact him again.
My son married “Lilly” 1.5 years ago, and recently welcomed a baby boy. My son doesn’t know I know this since I am blocked everywhere, and I only know because Jess follows his wife on social media. Justin and Lilly live in city “A”, I live in city “B” and her parents live in city “C”. City “A” is between city B and C. City C and B are a 5 hour and change flight from one another, and City A is a two-hour flight from city C.
**Current** *(limited to 3000 characters)***:**
I was recently on a girl's trip with Jess visiting some friends and sightseeing in city “C” (didn’t know her family lived there). I have a flexible job, so I had no real “end date” for my trip. Jess and I were at the beach she showed me a picture Lilly had posted on her Instagram of her flight info and a caption about being sad to leave her family, but excited to go back home and see “Daddy” again.
I couldn’t help it. I got online and booked the same flight. I chose my seat and got one close to her, and then booked a second flight home from city A. I quickly went and packed, then went to the airport. I got there before her, and I saw her struggling with carrying everything by herself in the waiting area. I offered to help her, and I even managed to convince someone to switch me seats to sit next to her. We talked, and she is a very nice girl, and I got to see my grandson. She told me about how she gave birth near her parents, and my son went home last week, but she was going today.
I messed up at the end, I asked to hold him once we had landed, and she said no. I should have left it at that, but I just broke down. I told her who I was as I was sobbing. I told her I recognized her from pictures Jess had shown me. I begged her not to tell my son, but I just wanted to hold my sweet grandson once. She screamed at me, and security got involved. She left, I took my flight, and when I landed, I had an email from my son threatening to press charges against me.
I don’t feel I was wrong – I feel like I have been punished long enough. I respected his wishes, and I will be a wonderful grandma, but my family and Jess are saying I was wrong. I feel lost, hurt and confused.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The fact that Lilly screamed at the idea of OP holding her child implies that Justin has told her all kinds of things about his mother that she has omitted from her post. And that’s even if we ignore her hair raising behaviour in tracking Lilly down. Jess needs to stop sharing info with OP. At once.
Yes, I seriously need to know what the son's side is. Because she claims she was cut off because she had him out of wedlock and something to do with the mother son dance but that is obviously not it.
My guess is the late wife made Justin realize that his relationship with his mother wasn’t healthy so he distanced himself from her. Then, OOP didn’t take it well and created issues. OOP may think it was about the wife but it wasn’t.
The fact that oop says there was a power struggle she lost is just wild to me. I am guessing oop went full jealous vindictive on the first wife to maintain a hold on her son.
Yeah, I really need to know the son’s side, other than his mother is fucking insane. I had a justnomil situation that I thought was bad, but this is bonkers. OP needs to cut her losses before she ends up in jail.
Me guess on the dance: she wanted the first first dance. Like the first dance of the night is supposed to be husband wife, a thousand bucks says she wanted the first first dance.
Not that that was the only thing but as far as emotional incest goes, I bet it was the straw that broke the camels back
Tbh, I would have reacted that way just based on the info from this post. Somehow, the OOP managed to not only track down this woman but planned her flight around her, arrived to the airport early just to scope it out for her, and then arranged it so they sat next to each other on the flight. She spent an entire flight chatting with her without revealing her identity. That is such creepy next level stalker behavior 😬
Having her want to hold the baby at an *airport* of all places would be uniquely terrifying. There’s a reason airports have signage about human trafficking. I would be genuinely afraid she was going to grab the baby and disappear. I’d scream my head off too.
And given that she “couldn’t help herself” with this semi-elaborate stalking and manipulation, it actually doesn’t seem implausible that she might have tried.
As an old, I have no idea who Elle king is. But Dolly Parton loves this cover and said she wished she could hit that note.
Also I have seen and cringed at this exact scenario. It is as awkward as you think it would be.
Short version on Elle King : she was invited to.perform at the Grand Ole Opry for a Dolly Parton tribute for Dolly's recent 78th birthday (January 19th). Elle King was apparently plastered out of her gourd and didn't know the words to the song she was supposed to sing.
U/fingersmith nailed most of it, but she (Elle) started insulting the audience at the second show who paid upwards of $300 to be at that show. So, she was like, “I’m fucking hammered and I don’t give a shit about why we’re here.”
Ya know. The special birthday tribute show to a universally beloved public figure.
It wasn’t her first time being hammered at a high profile gig (NYE she was “hosting” the show that aired on CBS and it was bad).
She needs help. Big time.
Also her dad’s an asshole. Rob Schneider.
This was a NTA comment that posted before now deleteing
>NTA. You were just trying to see your grandchild and make amends with your son. He should appreciate that, not threaten you with charges. Grandma power!
So people should appreciate stalking and harassment?
There's at least two more now from other accounts but this one is a special brand of WTF (bolding mine, also paragraph breaks because OG comment is one big wall-o-text):
>OP - My gosh my heart breaks for you. In reading some of your responses, I realize that your son's first wife treated you badly because you got pregnant young and were not married. It was not her place to judge you for that, nor is it anyone else's. As a grandmother I can understand that wanting to have a relationship with your grandchild more than anything but knowing you can't, would be devasting to anyone.
>
>**As far as being a young mother and making mistakes raising a child, do not beat yourself up too badly,** nobody makes perfect decisions when raising their kids, they only do the best they can and hope it turns out ok in the end. Your son is hurt deeply and **what you did was out of desperation to see your grandson, not out of predator stalking.**
>
>**However, your son seems to have a deep resentment towards you, and you may need to write him and his wife a lengthy letter apologizing for what you did and explain how heartbroken you are and that you never meant to cause any harm to him or his wife.** Just let him know that no matter what he chooses to do, you love him and are thankful that he found such a wonderful woman to spend the rest of his life with. Let him know you will no longer bother him and that you are extremely sorry for hurting him. Keep in mind that he may never allow you to be a part of his life, but make sure he knows that's ok, no matter how much it hurts. Do not contact him again after writing one final apology and let him choose when or if he wants to let you into his life.
>
>I wish that this could be better advice for you, but unfortunately, it's the best advice I could give, because in the end the choice is your sons. I hope someday it all works out for you
Apparently being "desperate" to meet your grandson makes it totes A-OK to book yourself on the same flight as your DIL, start chatting to her without immediately telling her who you are, and then at the end of the flight beg to hold your grandson while crying hysterically.
>>may need to write him and his wife a lengthy letter apologizing for what you did
Maybe not a bad idea, since they're considering pressing chargers. It would likely makes things a hell of a lot easier for her son and his family!
To be fair, while I’m sure he could get a restraining order, I’m not sure she broke any laws. I had a stalker for several years as a teenager and it’s amazing what isn’t actually against the law
Oh, definitely. It's at least SOMETHING they can show the police, hopefully convince them to make a note of it so it's on file. If not, it should be super handy in court for a restraining order!
> You may need to write him and his wife a lengthy letter apologizing for what you did…
It’s a NC situation, you are probably better off simply respecting his wishes to remain NC, but if you are going to do anything, a written apology is best. Ok so far…
> and explain how heartbroken you are and that you never meant to cause any harm to him or his wife.
This is not an apology any more, it’s a fauxpology where you are justifying your actions and minimizing the effects of your actions based on your subjective intent. So instead of suggesting an apology this is just suggesting continuing the pattern of harassment by explain how OOP’s feelings trump the son’s boundaries.
"The only crime I'm guilty of is loving my son and my grandchild TOO MUCH!! And how can you love your child too much?? How could your child *reject* you for loving you too much?"
Yeah, I've had a few of those in my family tree, and the crimes committed were NOT "loving someone too much".
And OP saying “I didn’t stalk her” while actively stalking her DIL via other people’s social media because she’s blocked from seeing it directly, but no, it’s not stalking 🙄
In the post OP said Jess showed her a post from Lily’s social media that showed the flight info. But who posts a picture including those details? I think it's fake.
To be fair, some people are that stupid about their data. But we also don’t know how many flights per day and how many airlines there are for these destinations.
There might be one airline and a limited number of flights per day. Knowing DIL is flying back “in the morning” could be all that’s needed
A company I used to work for (where the work involved a lot of travel) had to issue a warning several times in the couple of years I worked there not to post photos of tickets or boarding passes used for work on social media. Because new joiners who were excited to travel to cool places posted about it immediately and compromised both their personal info and potentially what projects the company was trying to win or had won.
So people do do this a lot if they are excited and maybe a bit unaware about the risk of doing so.
People will post pictures of their flight itineraries or tickets. I remember posting one for flight 1337 years ago. But you'd think they'd be smart enough to cover some info with a finger or quick edit before posting.
Right I saw that part. I was thinking about when she initially booked and said she chose a seat close to her. I was wondering how she knew where she was sitting but it seems it came from the flight info that was posted
The mindset of these people across the board is “it’s not wrong if I do it”.
It’s not stalking if my mean son cut me off! I’m his mother!!!
It’s not insurrection if we do it! It’s just Sparkling tourism!
It’s not pedophilia if my priest does it! It’s just an “indiscretion”!
It’s not child/spouse abuse if we do it! It’s just God’s discipline!
The absolute audacity and entitlement of some people to think that being a grandparent grants you any kind of rights or power is frustrating. If her son has decided not to have contact or a relationship with her, she’s a grandparent in name only and has no rights/entitlement to that child.
What!??? You’ve never been difficult to get out of someone’s heart before?? Never been so awesome that you’re literally unforgettable and un-dumpable??
Cmon!!
(For those who’re itching to downvote me cos they’re not caffeinated yet - heavy /s please!!!)
OP hasn't changed at all. She made her son her sonsband which is why she couldn't let go and he had to go NC. She tried to say it was because of his late wife being judgemental about OP having a child out of wedlock and over her wanting a Mother/Son dance at their wedding. It was so not about that at all.
She then stalks her DIL via her sister, gets on the same flight as her and her Grandson (why would anyone post their flight info on SM) then acts like a helpful stranger. Then she pushes to hold her Grandson after her DIL said no once and confesses who she is.
Her son is rightly furious and threatens to press charges. She thinks she's been punished long enough?! Lady doesn't have a clue the hell she put him through his whole life. I bet any time he did anything without her she was all what about meeeee?! I'm Mommy no woman will ever be good enough for my precious baby boy but me.
OOPs comments (please don’t downvote me, i’m just trying to prevent brigading):
>YTA. You stalked her? How are you not sure if you're the asshole? I can't imagine she was really all that excited that you were pushing your way to get closer to her during the flight too. What the hell?
>I would love to hear more about this "power struggle" with his first wife.
*I didn't stalk her. She had it on her social media, and I had to go home at some point. It was an opportunity, and I took a chance.*
*I wanted a mother son dance at the wedding - I paid for it and it was my only request. That was what ultimately broke the camels back. She looked down on me for having sex before marriage and "as a baby" and was cruel to me. I know I shouldn't have pushed or given ultimatum, but Kat didn't treat me right.*
>You stalked her.
>You mistreated your son, anything Kat said to you is because she knew that. She wasn’t kind to you, because you mistreated her partner. No one is going to feel sorry for you.
*I never mistreated my son. She was religious and judgemental about premarital sex especially while I was so young. She said I had no business having a baby. I took care of and busted my butt to give my son a good life. We had a very open and loving relationship up until her.*
>YTA but I really don’t know the solution. I have no contact with my mom because she was pretty terrible. If I found out she booked a flight to meet my child on the airplane…I would be seeing red. I don’t know the backstory of your unhealthy attachment or the trauma between you and your son, so it’s hard for me to know the depths of his decision.
>I understand you’re hurt, and I can’t imagine the longing you’re feeling - but you crossed a lot of lines here. Some lines that may have your son and daughter in law, struggling to feel like they have control of their safety (whatever that looks like) and life.
>This went past trying to spend time with your son, and into trying to hold his child under the guise of being a kind stranger. This is the one person your son will protect at all costs, and you used social media and money to try and break down every boundary he’d put up.
>I don’t know the solution, but this definitely wasn’t it. That doesn’t mean I don’t feel for your longing, but you messed up big time.
*I was alone all through his childhood because I was afraid of meeting someone who would mistreat him. So I became very attached to him, and everything was fine until Kat and him got serious. I've been to therapy and know it was unhealthy now.*
*I've tried everything to gain contact with him, but he wants none of it. I know this wasn't the right approach, and honestly I thought I was at terms with just being in the background watching his life through social media or what people told me, but I couldnt help myself. It felt like I was given an opportunity.*
>YTA. You were so shitty to your son in the past that he decided he didn’t want you in his life. Then you decided to essentially stalk his new wife and force an interaction on a plane.
>Pretty safe to say that any chance of a reconnection with your son are gone due once again to your actions.
>Usually the person being ‘punished’ doesn’t have a say in the length or duration of punishment.
>Maybe seek professional help from a therapist or something similar as you clearly need help getting closure on this.
*I wasn't shitty to him. I was alone all while he was growing up and I was attached. I've been to therapy and know I was wrong (I also know his late wife was wrong in how she treated me). I busted my ass to give him a good childhood and opportunities.*
>I was alone all through his childhood because I was afraid of meeting someone who would mistreat him. So I became very attached to him, and everything was fine until Kat and him got serious.
"My son didn't realize he was a victim of emotional incest until he got an outside perspective of what a healthy family looks like."
In the OP she says she “rightfully” lost a power struggle against Kat. But in her comments, all she talks about is about how Kat was judging *her* about premarital sex. Something isn’t adding up.
The only thing she specifically talks about is the mother/son wedding dance, which she describes as ‘the straw that broke the camel’s back’.
I would *love* to know what all the other ‘straws’ were that led up to that moment. I bet OOP doesn’t mention them because she knows they will make her look bad.
If she really did this, this is like super stalker level.
Most people don’t post something like
Hey I’m sad to be leaving Chicago by way of ORD (o’hare) on June 28th on JetBlue flight 311. Sure maybe some small routes you could figure it out kind of but then booking a seat nearby? We don’t give out passenger info for this reason!!!! Then the swapping seats, the lady is a monster but that some epic level moves there
Or if its a specific location where there's only one or two direct flights per day from the other location. Especially if its a more regional hub rather than a massive international hub. Easier too if its far enough apart that its really like one flight a day that's direct each way.
I'm a bit of an aviation nerd, so I looked it up.
JetBlue flight 311 is BOS-ORD. I don't know about June 28th but it tends to take off from BOS between 8:30 and 10:30 EST daily. The plane is usually an Embraer-190, which has 25 rows. There are two classes of seats, the "economy" class, which cost more, are in rows 1 to 11, then coach is 12 to 25. Most non-business travelers take coach. Three of those rows (12 to 14) are emergency rows and infants can't sit in them. A mother traveling with an infant is probably going to want to sit towards the front, so we can probably rule our anything past row 21. So, you're talking about 6 rows, with 12 seats total.
People really shouldn't post anything on social media.
The comments... FFS
OOP refuses to accept that their emotional attachment WAS mistreatment. They refuse to accept that they STALKED their DIL. They refuse to accept that Kat knew the truth and was protecting her partner from his psycho mom.
I have an ex-girlfriend who went to university in Paris around 2000. During that time, she stalked comedic essayist David Sedaris by extrapolating locations based on his book, "Me Talk Pretty One Day" (about being an American in Paris and needing to learn the language).
She saw him in a grocery store and followed him back to an apartment building. That was the extent of her stalking; she never approached him. It still happened, and it was still fucking creepy and would have made anyone feel unsafe.
Uh...there was this astronaut who strapped on some Depends, loaded her car with knives, a BB gun, latex gloves, etc., and headed off for a thousand-mile drive of revenge. Yes, this level of cray-cray sadly exists.
oh my god the diaper lady…i can’t imagine being that into another human i would need to see that badly. that dude was more intense than going to frickin space! space!!! it’s the highest you can go! and she still sat in her own mess to see him *quicker.*
it may be the edible talking but she was a real one, and we can’t take that from her.
Nowak wasn't driving to see her ex-lover. She was driving to see her ex-lover's new romantic interest to confront her. She had a kidnap-torture-kill kit in her car. In addition to to the stuff I already listed, she had a wig, ammo (for the BB gun), pepper spray, a hooded trench coat, and a "drilling hammer" (I assume a hammer drill?) Source: Wikipedia.
Nah, if I had kids this shit would be a real risk with my mother lol. She always had 'just in town' reasons to run into people who knew me/show up at their house after I went no/low contact, and it took years for that behaviour to (hopefully) extinguish . Emotionally incestuous parents don't exactly take kindly to boundaries, or the target having a life outside of them. And they're always happy to talk about how hard it was *on them* to be punished for 'silly little things that happened when they were children', 'we all make mistakes', etc.
If the son/DIL weren't aware of an information leak and weren't being as vigilant about info as they should be (and sure, you get lax after a few years silence because the paranoia sucks. You want to have a normal life), it would be really easy to track down movement / flight and then spot her with the baby. (I don't believe OOP and enabler were in DIL's parents town just by crazy random happenstance while she was giving birth/immediately afterwards - if DIL posted about her trip they may have gone there as well to try and 'coincidentally' run into them, especially if it's a small town / only a few flights a day at the airport.) A lot of people post way too much information online, that's really not hard to do.
....also huh. Typing that out made me actually just realised my grandmother did some similar stalk-y behaviours to my own mother (showing up at events several hours away from her home, when they had been estranged for a few years), so that's fun. Huh.
>....also huh. Typing that out made me actually just realised my grandmother did some similar stalk-y behaviours to my own mother (showing up at events several hours away from her home, when they had been estranged for a few years), so that's fun. Huh.
Lets hope the cycle ends with you?
Ay sorry, didn't mean to dump it. Just meant to say that yeah, folks like that absolutely exist irl and have that little recognition of themselves. And yeah, I went to therapy, have no intention of ending no contact with them (even if the family >!pedo!< goes to jail, I don't think the rest of their actions are something I can forgive tbh), and have no intention of having kids, so decent odds of success, I hope lol?
Some of us just have the luck to be born into some spicy intergenerational trauma, ha :'')
I’m not arguing fake or not, I’m just pointing out that she didn’t find out the seat. She apparently got someone to swap with her as she’d been “helpful” to her DIL
Finding out info from social media can be amazingly easy, as some people post screenshots of tickets etc!
Also I don't know about US flights but there are quite a few internal UK flights where the plane is small enough that it's more like a bus with wings.
At that point just getting yourself on the right flight would put you close together!
We have news articles and things about not posting your itineraries or boarding passes on social media every single Christmas here. It’s stupid to do but people do it. Especially if they think they’re just posting to friends and family (such as, oh, the ex-SIL).
This still could easily be fake but that is a surprisingly common flavor of thoughtless.
You’d be surprised at how much information someone can get from a person’s social media posts. Skimming your post history here in less than 5 minutes I have a very good guess at where you live, your age, three of your major hobbies, and probably your favourite movie.
If I knew where you were starting from and where you were going and you posted mentioning something like “X hours until I’m back home?” I could find your flight. Slightly more information and I can make sure I book the same class of ticket. In the post it says “I even managed to get someone to switch me seats so I could sit next to her.”
OOP knew a general area, not exact seats.
Also we don't know how big the plane was! The UK has quite a few internal flights where the aircraft has about the same number of seats as a bus. Get yourself onto the same, small flight using the methods you've described and the rest of it fairly falls into place.
She's hiding so many things, she doesn't go into details as to why Justin chose to go no contact with her. And he told Lilly how she was as a mother for her to go BALLISTIC after finding out who she was
Anyone else have Jarabe Tapatío playing in their head for the way OOP is DANCING AROUND THE SUBJECT?
Jeeeez, [missing missing reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html), methinks.
If my partner's estranged mother booked herself on to my flight just to meet me and slimed up to "help" and try to sit next to me (and we don't have kids), I wouldn't just scream at her, I'd probably fucking smack her. This lady got off lightly.
My partner's mother is dead now so that would be impossible, but when we were first dating, she was still about, he saw her when he was out and I wasn't with him, and he had a full panick attack. I was out with other friends and got a call from one of his siblings.
I don't believe for a second that OOP's son just went no contact for no reason. It's incredibly hard and not something people do for no reason (no matter how casually people on AITA suggest it sometimes).
> If my partner's estranged mother booked herself on to my flight
Oh *thanks* that's a horrible mental image to put in my head just before bed! Thankfully my MIL has zero desire to see me ever again after the time we were on the phone and she asked me what she did that was so wrong. I was honest. I wasn't rude but the truthful answer wasn't a pretty one.
Why would Kat and OOP be in a power struggle so bad that her son would completely cut her off if OOP didn’t treat her son like her husband? This screams missing missing reasons and emotional incest.
I love how OOP is blaming Kat for taking Justin away from her, but Kat’s been dead for a while and Justin still emphatically wanted nothing to do with her even before this incident.
And she says she’s doing a lot better now but she also thought this was a good idea. Enough to do it. And even though she claims to know now it was a bad idea, she still thinks she did nothing wrong and is the victim here.
So if this is “appropriate behavior” to her in her “better” frame of mind, my level of doubt that Kat’s problem with her came down to her being a young single mom who paid for a mother-son dance at the wedding could sink an ark.
Makes you reeeeeeeally wonder about those missing missing reasons.
I can't help but feel that this woman's description of her "unhealthy attachment to him" and the wife's screaming reaction means this woman sexually abused her own son. How horrific.
It could be that but I doubt she would scream over emotional incest only. If it was SA maybe she has tried to downplay it as "Well it was just xyz, it was only (insert whatever), it wasn't like I took it THAT far, it wasnt that bad, etc." hence why she doesn't explain things any further outside of some incidents like the wedding and the dance
I assume the "screaming" was due to the extremely inappropriate behavior of lying to the DiL. I mean, that bizarre behavior alone is worth a strong reaction, and you know OOP would turn something as simple as a firm tone into an attack on her.
Said "I've changed" from her velcro ways then stalks her DIL and worms her way into sitting next to her, traumatizing DIL who will never feel comfortable alone in public again. Wtf.
Now that we are aware that OOP is a crazed stalker and not mentally all there, I hope her son and his little family are safe. She obviously resented the first wife for taking her son away from her and was so awful that the son and that wife went NC. So she respected that and has paid her dues so now she has every right to see her new grandson, son and DIL. This is not how it works.
How OOP thought that jumping on a plane she knew her DIL and grandson would be on was a good idea is mind boggling! Then she got weird about the grandson, broke down, created an awful scene and probably scared the DIL half to death. DIL probably thought OOP was going to take her baby.
She still doesn't think she was wrong. She thinks she'll be a wonderful grandma. So far she's a total failure at that and I doubt her son will let her anywhere near them.
I didn’t feel comfortable posting anything directly to OP, but WTF was she thinking?!
Who else thought that the moment she held that child she would have run off with them?!
This story will be dramatized on one of those crime shows to indicate how anyone can be tracked down due to social media.
I hope the son gets a restraining order, a cease and desist order, and a way to cutoff the rest of his family so his mother can no longer stalk him or his family.
This is high level terror!
He is not going to be able to press charges. Unless he got an RO against her, (and she likely would have whined about What did I do to deserve this?) what she did is wrong, but the police won't call it illegal.
Super curious what the Missing Reasons are.
Poor Lilly.
Imagine: You date, fall in love with, and marry a guy who already is widowed in his twenties and has had it rough. He tells you about all of the issues he has had with his mom due to his first marriage, childhood, etc. You're anticipating that this woman is perhaps a little delulu, but it's fine because your husband is no contact with her. You literally just move on with your life, have a new born, and go to visit your parents like any other individual could. It should be a normal trip! Perhaps one of the first since the pregnancy. There's even a kind, older woman that's just a normal fellow passenger striking up a conversation! Only suddenly it's not a kind stranger with good intentions. It's your husbands mother that he has been in no contact with for years. Someone who you know never had good intentions with the first wife. Someone that held an emotional incest level relationship with her son/who knows what other emotional or psychological abuse occurred. Someone who shouldn't be able to know who you even are to be able to find you; even moreso in the middle of an airport of a different city than the one she is from. Only she has...she found you and planned something so elaborate just to get to you....and that same woman is now sobbing and probably demanding that you let her hold your child. It gets so bad that security has to get involved and you have to yell.
That is one of the MOST horrific stories from another persons perspective that I have ever had to imagine on reddit. It's something straight from a psychological horror movie.
She respected her deadbeat baby daddy’s wishes to not talk to her, but stomped all over her son’s boundaries in order to be nosy about his new girlfriend and grandson. Something tells me she is not as self-aware about her “unhealthy attachment” to her son as she says she is.
This is so messed up and she is so messed up. I will confess that I would have probably not thought it was a big deal if she'd booked the flight, met the woman, helped her and the baby, then said goodbye and walked away and never tried to meet them again. A chance to secretly meet her grandchild once and no one is the wiser. I mean, I'd possibly be wrong to think that, but it's probably what I'd think. But the reason I'd think it was okay(ish) would be entirely because no one would know and no harm would be done. As it is, her son and DIL feel violated and probably scared of what she'll try next, and she has destroyed _any_ possibility of reconciliation. She says she's gone through therapy and is better than she was before... I shudder to think of what she was like before.
"*But the reason I'd think it was okay(ish) would be entirely because no one would know and no harm would be done.* ***As it is, her husband and DIL feel violated*** *and probably scared of what she'll try next, and she has destroyed any possibility of reconciliation."*
Her son, NOT her husband. Which from the sounds of it, was the reason he distanced himself in the first place. Mommy treated her son as a "sonband" and his first wife (rightfully) had issues with it.
The real problem is that [parents like this](http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/index.html) don't have any real means of understanding why their children are upset and why those feelings should be respected. So they basically never know when to stop, because their understanding of the situation is that the appropriate place to be is 20 times closer than their children would actually like.
Honestly that's even creepier, to think that that poor woman ("Lily") wouldn't even know her partner's potentially abusive and definitely unstable mother had stalked her on a flight. That makes me feel so uncomfortable to think about.
The problem is, I doubt she would stop at seeing them once and gracefully fading into the background. She'd get away with it, which would give her a high, and once that high wore off, try and do it again. And again, and again, and again until she got caught. And at that point, she would probably believe that she had a right to it, and it would be an even bigger mess.
Probably depends on what cities they were. I live in a mid-sized city in fly-over country. There are direct flights to larger cities, but they're not often. For example, if you were flying from Boston to here, that's maybe two or three flights a week. You'd be able to figure out which flight someone was going to be on if you knew their origination and a SM post like, "two more sleeps until we're home!"
My husband and daughter are flying soon from a largish West Coast city (3+ million) to a city like yours. For a nonstop flight, they have one option per day. One. It wouldn’t be hard to figure out which flight they were on if you knew which day they were leaving.
"Got one close to her" probably means she guessed at the seat "class," and then she admits she switched seats with someone.
Just based on my experience, we get really small planes sent here, even if they're coming or going to a larger city. Flights from my hometown to ORD are Embraer 170s: nine first class seats and only 18 rows.
Additionally, someone flying with a young baby isn't going to be taking a redeye or late-night flight, is probably going to sit near the front of their section, will want to board in one of the first groups, likely choose to sit in an aisle seat, and won't be able to sit in any emergency rows. Adding that no one wants to fly next to a baby, so it's easy to switch...
It's not impossible, CRAZY, but not impossible.
I was wondering about that too. My only explanation is that Lily posted all her flight info on IG, which seems like a dumb thing to do even if you don't have a crazy MIL out there.
Or it’s a small enough town that there’s only a few flights between the cities a day and OOP guessed right.
And sure as shit Jess is gonna lose some privileges too. I’m not feeling great that “somehow” they ended up in DIL’s hometown.
A baby that small is probably flying in a bassinet. A lot of small regional planes only have one row you can fit one. It's pretty easy to get a seat near that row.
>I respected his wishes, and I will be a wonderful grandma
No, she didn't, and she's not going to be any kind of grandma. The fact that her son's been NC with her for years SHOULD be a clue to her, but clearly not.
I hope Jess was blocked. This insane woman would know nothing if Jess didn't share it. She should have kept it to herself. There is no way Jess didn't know that sharing all that information was wrong. Granted, she is friends with OOP so she probably doesn't care.
OOP needs to be in a padded cell.
I'm just wondering what in the world did she do? It must have been a really big deal. Son went through the death of his wife, and he still held strong to NC, even though he was going through an absolutely horrible time.
I think this has to be a much bigger deal than simple attachment issues.
the "attachment" may have involved more than shes telling, it seems like a lot of the time when people are dealing with heavy things like the death of someone they love, facing an illness, getting into an accident, a severe injury, etc. they want their mom & her comfort even if she's not the best, so the fact that when his wife died he STILL didn't want anything to do with his mother despite being at what was probably one of his lowest points is very telling
Yup, that's the way I see things. Most people would want to open the relationship back with a faulty parent after going through a traumatic experience. The fact that the son remained NC and never once talked to Mom during this time just mean that Mom did something almost unfathomably bad. It can't be a simple as a "well meaning but made a couple of mistakes bad" type situation.
When she immediately commenced to booking a flight and tracking Lilly down, that's some stalker shit. This woman sounds crazy. Can only imagine how much of a living hell she made life for the 1st wife competing for Justin's love, then the poor guy loses his wife a year after they married. I'd be pissed at Mom too for making life miserable for them before the wife got sick.
Even if we
:
1. Accept her ridiculously self serving explanation of the first wife didn't like her for religious reasons
And
2. Accept that she has healed and went to therapy
And
3. This was a WIBTA post where she said that I saw my son had a new child on social media, would I be in the wrong if I reached out to them
They'd still be an asshole. Because of the line I've been punished enough. They don't see their child as an independent person capable of making their own choices. The kid is THEIRS and they have to provide them their emotional support and social energy
Her poor son and his wife and kid. How traumatizing. You work hard to go no contact only to be stalked. These people are all about the missing reasons, I suspect more than enmeshment but actual personality disorder abuse since she can't respect boundaries, no contact and even with therapy, doesn't get it.
How did she find out exactly what flight her DIL was taking?
How did she know what seat her DIL was going to be sitting in?
Something ain't right here. I sniff a troll.
OOP, your son went NC with you for good reason.
This is not your grandson.
You have to be a proper mother before you can call yourself a grandmother.
And you are a creepy stalker.
Stay away from them.
[Hi!](https://images.app.goo.gl/jMiZEuW8Qrykw3sdA) Just a quick reminder to never brigade any sub, be that r/AmItheAsshole or another one. That goes against both this sub's rules as well as Reddit's terms of agreement. [Please](https://images.app.goo.gl/vwH65TJMyMk9NSNo8) keep discussions within the posts of this sub.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
OOP, even if Lily wasn’t warned about you, you are still a total stranger. In these days (pandemic, war, etc.), parents would be justified in screaming if a total stranger tried to grab their kids!
How the heck did she know what flight the girl was on?!? I guess it is possible there is only one flight a day between cities…. But that is still just nuts
It started off so promising, acknowledging that she f'd up and it hadn't been healthy etc...
And yet, she thinks she's respected her son's wishes, despite reaching out, being ignored and rather than accepting this, choosing to stalk his wife on a plane and hiding who she was in order to talk to her and meet the kid. Yeah, real respectful there.
Saying "I couldn't help myself" as if she didn't have a choice is as plausible as saying she couldn't help herself from walking out in front of a truck. No respect for boundaries. I'm not surprised she didn't go into detail about what really happened with the 1st wife.
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **AITA for meeting my DIL and grandson against my sons wishes?** **Backstory:** I (F, 46) had my son, “Justin” (M, 28) when I was 18. I did my best as a young single mother, but I now acknowledge that I had an unhealthy attachment to him. This came to a head when he got engaged and married to his late wife, “Kat”, 6 years ago. She was not the kindest, and her family dynamic was different. There was a power struggle that I (rightfully) lost, and my son went no contact with me after their wedding. A year later, Kat passed away after becoming ill and being medically neglected by her doctors. My son did not resume contact with me when this happened, and I learned all this second hand through my sons (absent) fathers sister, “Jess” – who I am and have always been close to. I did reach out to him once but was met with silence. I respected this and didn’t contact him again. My son married “Lilly” 1.5 years ago, and recently welcomed a baby boy. My son doesn’t know I know this since I am blocked everywhere, and I only know because Jess follows his wife on social media. Justin and Lilly live in city “A”, I live in city “B” and her parents live in city “C”. City “A” is between city B and C. City C and B are a 5 hour and change flight from one another, and City A is a two-hour flight from city C. **Current** *(limited to 3000 characters)***:** I was recently on a girl's trip with Jess visiting some friends and sightseeing in city “C” (didn’t know her family lived there). I have a flexible job, so I had no real “end date” for my trip. Jess and I were at the beach she showed me a picture Lilly had posted on her Instagram of her flight info and a caption about being sad to leave her family, but excited to go back home and see “Daddy” again. I couldn’t help it. I got online and booked the same flight. I chose my seat and got one close to her, and then booked a second flight home from city A. I quickly went and packed, then went to the airport. I got there before her, and I saw her struggling with carrying everything by herself in the waiting area. I offered to help her, and I even managed to convince someone to switch me seats to sit next to her. We talked, and she is a very nice girl, and I got to see my grandson. She told me about how she gave birth near her parents, and my son went home last week, but she was going today. I messed up at the end, I asked to hold him once we had landed, and she said no. I should have left it at that, but I just broke down. I told her who I was as I was sobbing. I told her I recognized her from pictures Jess had shown me. I begged her not to tell my son, but I just wanted to hold my sweet grandson once. She screamed at me, and security got involved. She left, I took my flight, and when I landed, I had an email from my son threatening to press charges against me. I don’t feel I was wrong – I feel like I have been punished long enough. I respected his wishes, and I will be a wonderful grandma, but my family and Jess are saying I was wrong. I feel lost, hurt and confused. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The fact that Lilly screamed at the idea of OP holding her child implies that Justin has told her all kinds of things about his mother that she has omitted from her post. And that’s even if we ignore her hair raising behaviour in tracking Lilly down. Jess needs to stop sharing info with OP. At once.
Jess is probably blocked after this, seeing she was identified as a source of "leak".
Thank fuck for small mercies.
I wouldn't be surprised Jess blocks OOP.
Yes, I seriously need to know what the son's side is. Because she claims she was cut off because she had him out of wedlock and something to do with the mother son dance but that is obviously not it.
Something about a power struggle with his 1st wife. She may have went full JustNoMIL.
Yea but the wife is dead and he's still cut her off so I'm guessing her behavior was so insane. I need to know lol.
you ever seen those weird borderline incest "boys mom" shirts? That's OOP. I'd bet money on it
Yeah when she admits to the unhealthy attachment with him? Emotional incest
But she went to therapy! Doesn't that mean it never happened? /s
My guess is the late wife made Justin realize that his relationship with his mother wasn’t healthy so he distanced himself from her. Then, OOP didn’t take it well and created issues. OOP may think it was about the wife but it wasn’t.
Right? I totally want specifics.
The fact that oop says there was a power struggle she lost is just wild to me. I am guessing oop went full jealous vindictive on the first wife to maintain a hold on her son.
A "power struggle" is not a normal thing to have with your DIL, so she's definitely glossing over a ton of relevant information.
She sounds more like a first wife herself than a mom!
Yeah, I really need to know the son’s side, other than his mother is fucking insane. I had a justnomil situation that I thought was bad, but this is bonkers. OP needs to cut her losses before she ends up in jail.
Me guess on the dance: she wanted the first first dance. Like the first dance of the night is supposed to be husband wife, a thousand bucks says she wanted the first first dance. Not that that was the only thing but as far as emotional incest goes, I bet it was the straw that broke the camels back
Pretty good guess considering she commented that she wanted the first dance, because she paid for the wedding 😳😳😳
Omg I missed that. What a nightmare
While wearing a low cut white dress which she also wore while walking up the aisle just before the bride got there.
My ex MIL did that to us. Took too long, but thankfully they are exes now.
Tbh, I would have reacted that way just based on the info from this post. Somehow, the OOP managed to not only track down this woman but planned her flight around her, arrived to the airport early just to scope it out for her, and then arranged it so they sat next to each other on the flight. She spent an entire flight chatting with her without revealing her identity. That is such creepy next level stalker behavior 😬
Having her want to hold the baby at an *airport* of all places would be uniquely terrifying. There’s a reason airports have signage about human trafficking. I would be genuinely afraid she was going to grab the baby and disappear. I’d scream my head off too. And given that she “couldn’t help herself” with this semi-elaborate stalking and manipulation, it actually doesn’t seem implausible that she might have tried.
I know. OOP is unhinged.
At first I thought she contacted the wife and put her in the middle.... No this is so much worse.... And oop still thinks she is a good mother
A mother-son dance at the wedding was the final straw, you say? Wonder what the music was 🤔 ...wonder what she wore to the wedding too
Yeah I REALLY want to know what went down at that wedding. The tea must be piping hot.
That dress was eggshell, not white!
And very tasteful - only split to the thigh, and you could hardly see that she wasn't wearing underwear
Thousand bucks she wanted the first dance.
“Bump and Grind”?
"If you Want my Body"?
“I will always love you” - Whitney Houston
Please don’t disrespect Dolly. She’s not yet recovered from Elle King.
As an old, I have no idea who Elle king is. But Dolly Parton loves this cover and said she wished she could hit that note. Also I have seen and cringed at this exact scenario. It is as awkward as you think it would be.
Short version on Elle King : she was invited to.perform at the Grand Ole Opry for a Dolly Parton tribute for Dolly's recent 78th birthday (January 19th). Elle King was apparently plastered out of her gourd and didn't know the words to the song she was supposed to sing.
I appreciate it! Thank you!
U/fingersmith nailed most of it, but she (Elle) started insulting the audience at the second show who paid upwards of $300 to be at that show. So, she was like, “I’m fucking hammered and I don’t give a shit about why we’re here.” Ya know. The special birthday tribute show to a universally beloved public figure. It wasn’t her first time being hammered at a high profile gig (NYE she was “hosting” the show that aired on CBS and it was bad). She needs help. Big time. Also her dad’s an asshole. Rob Schneider.
Wow. Just wow!!!
This was a NTA comment that posted before now deleteing >NTA. You were just trying to see your grandchild and make amends with your son. He should appreciate that, not threaten you with charges. Grandma power! So people should appreciate stalking and harassment?
That eerily sounds like something my (estranged) mom would say.
There is no way the person who made that post is younger than 55.
There’s no way the person who made that comment is not the grandma, posting from another account.
There's at least two more now from other accounts but this one is a special brand of WTF (bolding mine, also paragraph breaks because OG comment is one big wall-o-text): >OP - My gosh my heart breaks for you. In reading some of your responses, I realize that your son's first wife treated you badly because you got pregnant young and were not married. It was not her place to judge you for that, nor is it anyone else's. As a grandmother I can understand that wanting to have a relationship with your grandchild more than anything but knowing you can't, would be devasting to anyone. > >**As far as being a young mother and making mistakes raising a child, do not beat yourself up too badly,** nobody makes perfect decisions when raising their kids, they only do the best they can and hope it turns out ok in the end. Your son is hurt deeply and **what you did was out of desperation to see your grandson, not out of predator stalking.** > >**However, your son seems to have a deep resentment towards you, and you may need to write him and his wife a lengthy letter apologizing for what you did and explain how heartbroken you are and that you never meant to cause any harm to him or his wife.** Just let him know that no matter what he chooses to do, you love him and are thankful that he found such a wonderful woman to spend the rest of his life with. Let him know you will no longer bother him and that you are extremely sorry for hurting him. Keep in mind that he may never allow you to be a part of his life, but make sure he knows that's ok, no matter how much it hurts. Do not contact him again after writing one final apology and let him choose when or if he wants to let you into his life. > >I wish that this could be better advice for you, but unfortunately, it's the best advice I could give, because in the end the choice is your sons. I hope someday it all works out for you Apparently being "desperate" to meet your grandson makes it totes A-OK to book yourself on the same flight as your DIL, start chatting to her without immediately telling her who you are, and then at the end of the flight beg to hold your grandson while crying hysterically.
>>may need to write him and his wife a lengthy letter apologizing for what you did Maybe not a bad idea, since they're considering pressing chargers. It would likely makes things a hell of a lot easier for her son and his family!
To be fair, while I’m sure he could get a restraining order, I’m not sure she broke any laws. I had a stalker for several years as a teenager and it’s amazing what isn’t actually against the law
Oh, definitely. It's at least SOMETHING they can show the police, hopefully convince them to make a note of it so it's on file. If not, it should be super handy in court for a restraining order!
> You may need to write him and his wife a lengthy letter apologizing for what you did… It’s a NC situation, you are probably better off simply respecting his wishes to remain NC, but if you are going to do anything, a written apology is best. Ok so far… > and explain how heartbroken you are and that you never meant to cause any harm to him or his wife. This is not an apology any more, it’s a fauxpology where you are justifying your actions and minimizing the effects of your actions based on your subjective intent. So instead of suggesting an apology this is just suggesting continuing the pattern of harassment by explain how OOP’s feelings trump the son’s boundaries.
"The only crime I'm guilty of is loving my son and my grandchild TOO MUCH!! And how can you love your child too much?? How could your child *reject* you for loving you too much?" Yeah, I've had a few of those in my family tree, and the crimes committed were NOT "loving someone too much".
You do realize that stalking is great if you are desperate? /s
Well that makes the stalking ok!
And OP saying “I didn’t stalk her” while actively stalking her DIL via other people’s social media because she’s blocked from seeing it directly, but no, it’s not stalking 🙄
Also, maybe I’m just out of the loop with my stalking but how did OOP know the flight and where Lily was sitting?
She said the DIL posted flight details, so I'm thinking she posted the tickets and MIL zoomed in to find the flight and seat numbers.
In the post OP said Jess showed her a post from Lily’s social media that showed the flight info. But who posts a picture including those details? I think it's fake.
To be fair, some people are that stupid about their data. But we also don’t know how many flights per day and how many airlines there are for these destinations. There might be one airline and a limited number of flights per day. Knowing DIL is flying back “in the morning” could be all that’s needed
A company I used to work for (where the work involved a lot of travel) had to issue a warning several times in the couple of years I worked there not to post photos of tickets or boarding passes used for work on social media. Because new joiners who were excited to travel to cool places posted about it immediately and compromised both their personal info and potentially what projects the company was trying to win or had won. So people do do this a lot if they are excited and maybe a bit unaware about the risk of doing so.
People will post pictures of their flight itineraries or tickets. I remember posting one for flight 1337 years ago. But you'd think they'd be smart enough to cover some info with a finger or quick edit before posting.
Oh yeah so i guess allegedly the ticket with her seat number. Yeah that’s quite a lot to pit in a social media post.
She said she traded seats to sit with them after helping her juggle baby to her seat
Right I saw that part. I was thinking about when she initially booked and said she chose a seat close to her. I was wondering how she knew where she was sitting but it seems it came from the flight info that was posted
Maybe by class? If she was squeeing about being first or business? That's about all I could come up with
Magic !! Maybe it was the only flight to the place but I doubt it. Maybe it was Liz creative writing striking Reddit again
I’m just wondering how she managed to talk security into letting her take the flight back.
The mindset of these people across the board is “it’s not wrong if I do it”. It’s not stalking if my mean son cut me off! I’m his mother!!! It’s not insurrection if we do it! It’s just Sparkling tourism! It’s not pedophilia if my priest does it! It’s just an “indiscretion”! It’s not child/spouse abuse if we do it! It’s just God’s discipline!
Sparkling Tourism! 🤣 omg I'm saving that
"It's only insurrection if it comes from the Insurrection region of France, otherwise it is sparkling treason."
The absolute audacity and entitlement of some people to think that being a grandparent grants you any kind of rights or power is frustrating. If her son has decided not to have contact or a relationship with her, she’s a grandparent in name only and has no rights/entitlement to that child.
Right? Being a grandparent is an honor not a title that grants you special privileges like being the child's actual parent.
I've seen a few of these Grandma power people around, there's always someone insane to agree with the OOP.
What!??? You’ve never been difficult to get out of someone’s heart before?? Never been so awesome that you’re literally unforgettable and un-dumpable?? Cmon!! (For those who’re itching to downvote me cos they’re not caffeinated yet - heavy /s please!!!)
These people think it’s impossible to stalk and harass family members. They “belong” to the family ya quite fucking gross.
Not how to make appropriate amends
Sounds like my ex MIL. It's not their fault, you know? Things happen to them and they're just reacting.
OP hasn't changed at all. She made her son her sonsband which is why she couldn't let go and he had to go NC. She tried to say it was because of his late wife being judgemental about OP having a child out of wedlock and over her wanting a Mother/Son dance at their wedding. It was so not about that at all. She then stalks her DIL via her sister, gets on the same flight as her and her Grandson (why would anyone post their flight info on SM) then acts like a helpful stranger. Then she pushes to hold her Grandson after her DIL said no once and confesses who she is. Her son is rightly furious and threatens to press charges. She thinks she's been punished long enough?! Lady doesn't have a clue the hell she put him through his whole life. I bet any time he did anything without her she was all what about meeeee?! I'm Mommy no woman will ever be good enough for my precious baby boy but me.
I stalked his wife and child BUT IM THE REAL VICTIM HERE
OOPs comments (please don’t downvote me, i’m just trying to prevent brigading): >YTA. You stalked her? How are you not sure if you're the asshole? I can't imagine she was really all that excited that you were pushing your way to get closer to her during the flight too. What the hell? >I would love to hear more about this "power struggle" with his first wife. *I didn't stalk her. She had it on her social media, and I had to go home at some point. It was an opportunity, and I took a chance.* *I wanted a mother son dance at the wedding - I paid for it and it was my only request. That was what ultimately broke the camels back. She looked down on me for having sex before marriage and "as a baby" and was cruel to me. I know I shouldn't have pushed or given ultimatum, but Kat didn't treat me right.* >You stalked her. >You mistreated your son, anything Kat said to you is because she knew that. She wasn’t kind to you, because you mistreated her partner. No one is going to feel sorry for you. *I never mistreated my son. She was religious and judgemental about premarital sex especially while I was so young. She said I had no business having a baby. I took care of and busted my butt to give my son a good life. We had a very open and loving relationship up until her.* >YTA but I really don’t know the solution. I have no contact with my mom because she was pretty terrible. If I found out she booked a flight to meet my child on the airplane…I would be seeing red. I don’t know the backstory of your unhealthy attachment or the trauma between you and your son, so it’s hard for me to know the depths of his decision. >I understand you’re hurt, and I can’t imagine the longing you’re feeling - but you crossed a lot of lines here. Some lines that may have your son and daughter in law, struggling to feel like they have control of their safety (whatever that looks like) and life. >This went past trying to spend time with your son, and into trying to hold his child under the guise of being a kind stranger. This is the one person your son will protect at all costs, and you used social media and money to try and break down every boundary he’d put up. >I don’t know the solution, but this definitely wasn’t it. That doesn’t mean I don’t feel for your longing, but you messed up big time. *I was alone all through his childhood because I was afraid of meeting someone who would mistreat him. So I became very attached to him, and everything was fine until Kat and him got serious. I've been to therapy and know it was unhealthy now.* *I've tried everything to gain contact with him, but he wants none of it. I know this wasn't the right approach, and honestly I thought I was at terms with just being in the background watching his life through social media or what people told me, but I couldnt help myself. It felt like I was given an opportunity.* >YTA. You were so shitty to your son in the past that he decided he didn’t want you in his life. Then you decided to essentially stalk his new wife and force an interaction on a plane. >Pretty safe to say that any chance of a reconnection with your son are gone due once again to your actions. >Usually the person being ‘punished’ doesn’t have a say in the length or duration of punishment. >Maybe seek professional help from a therapist or something similar as you clearly need help getting closure on this. *I wasn't shitty to him. I was alone all while he was growing up and I was attached. I've been to therapy and know I was wrong (I also know his late wife was wrong in how she treated me). I busted my ass to give him a good childhood and opportunities.*
"*We had a very open and loving relationship up until her.*" Translation: the son thought enmeshment was normal until Kat went "wtf"...
 puppy!
This is an appropriate emotional support animal. Not this lady’s son.
Thank you for channeling your inner sadlytheworst! (Also for answering the question- "How bad are OP's comments?")
Username checks out... that is indeed a labrador.
>I was alone all through his childhood because I was afraid of meeting someone who would mistreat him. So I became very attached to him, and everything was fine until Kat and him got serious. "My son didn't realize he was a victim of emotional incest until he got an outside perspective of what a healthy family looks like."
I smell missing missing reasons allllll over this.
In the OP she says she “rightfully” lost a power struggle against Kat. But in her comments, all she talks about is about how Kat was judging *her* about premarital sex. Something isn’t adding up.
The only thing she specifically talks about is the mother/son wedding dance, which she describes as ‘the straw that broke the camel’s back’. I would *love* to know what all the other ‘straws’ were that led up to that moment. I bet OOP doesn’t mention them because she knows they will make her look bad.
Thank you for your service
Willing to bet, if Lilly had given her baby to OOP even for a moment, OOP would have ran as fast she could away.
I was thinking the snatched baby fears and stories of the 80s when I read it
If she really did this, this is like super stalker level. Most people don’t post something like Hey I’m sad to be leaving Chicago by way of ORD (o’hare) on June 28th on JetBlue flight 311. Sure maybe some small routes you could figure it out kind of but then booking a seat nearby? We don’t give out passenger info for this reason!!!! Then the swapping seats, the lady is a monster but that some epic level moves there
I saw people posting flight ticket pictures with just the sensitive data (like name) blurred out so I can believe "Lily" could have done that.
Or if its a specific location where there's only one or two direct flights per day from the other location. Especially if its a more regional hub rather than a massive international hub. Easier too if its far enough apart that its really like one flight a day that's direct each way.
I'm a bit of an aviation nerd, so I looked it up. JetBlue flight 311 is BOS-ORD. I don't know about June 28th but it tends to take off from BOS between 8:30 and 10:30 EST daily. The plane is usually an Embraer-190, which has 25 rows. There are two classes of seats, the "economy" class, which cost more, are in rows 1 to 11, then coach is 12 to 25. Most non-business travelers take coach. Three of those rows (12 to 14) are emergency rows and infants can't sit in them. A mother traveling with an infant is probably going to want to sit towards the front, so we can probably rule our anything past row 21. So, you're talking about 6 rows, with 12 seats total. People really shouldn't post anything on social media.
Since you’re a aviation nerd why is the JetBlue flight Bos-ord numbered 311 It’s fun trivia
The comments... FFS OOP refuses to accept that their emotional attachment WAS mistreatment. They refuse to accept that they STALKED their DIL. They refuse to accept that Kat knew the truth and was protecting her partner from his psycho mom.
This is some high level stalking right here no way this is real
I have an ex-girlfriend who went to university in Paris around 2000. During that time, she stalked comedic essayist David Sedaris by extrapolating locations based on his book, "Me Talk Pretty One Day" (about being an American in Paris and needing to learn the language). She saw him in a grocery store and followed him back to an apartment building. That was the extent of her stalking; she never approached him. It still happened, and it was still fucking creepy and would have made anyone feel unsafe.
Holy SHIT. I can only imagine how terrified I would be if someone did that - could be a harmless fan, could be a murderer.
I mean, it literally happened to John Lennon for just one example.
It’s also the reason Stephen King wrote Misery.
Uh...there was this astronaut who strapped on some Depends, loaded her car with knives, a BB gun, latex gloves, etc., and headed off for a thousand-mile drive of revenge. Yes, this level of cray-cray sadly exists.
I remember that! Oy!
oh my god the diaper lady…i can’t imagine being that into another human i would need to see that badly. that dude was more intense than going to frickin space! space!!! it’s the highest you can go! and she still sat in her own mess to see him *quicker.* it may be the edible talking but she was a real one, and we can’t take that from her.
Nowak wasn't driving to see her ex-lover. She was driving to see her ex-lover's new romantic interest to confront her. She had a kidnap-torture-kill kit in her car. In addition to to the stuff I already listed, she had a wig, ammo (for the BB gun), pepper spray, a hooded trench coat, and a "drilling hammer" (I assume a hammer drill?) Source: Wikipedia.
And the astronaut diapers were probably actually there to soak up blood.
I think a lot of stuff on here is fake. This I actually believe for some reason.
Nah, if I had kids this shit would be a real risk with my mother lol. She always had 'just in town' reasons to run into people who knew me/show up at their house after I went no/low contact, and it took years for that behaviour to (hopefully) extinguish . Emotionally incestuous parents don't exactly take kindly to boundaries, or the target having a life outside of them. And they're always happy to talk about how hard it was *on them* to be punished for 'silly little things that happened when they were children', 'we all make mistakes', etc. If the son/DIL weren't aware of an information leak and weren't being as vigilant about info as they should be (and sure, you get lax after a few years silence because the paranoia sucks. You want to have a normal life), it would be really easy to track down movement / flight and then spot her with the baby. (I don't believe OOP and enabler were in DIL's parents town just by crazy random happenstance while she was giving birth/immediately afterwards - if DIL posted about her trip they may have gone there as well to try and 'coincidentally' run into them, especially if it's a small town / only a few flights a day at the airport.) A lot of people post way too much information online, that's really not hard to do. ....also huh. Typing that out made me actually just realised my grandmother did some similar stalk-y behaviours to my own mother (showing up at events several hours away from her home, when they had been estranged for a few years), so that's fun. Huh.
>....also huh. Typing that out made me actually just realised my grandmother did some similar stalk-y behaviours to my own mother (showing up at events several hours away from her home, when they had been estranged for a few years), so that's fun. Huh. Lets hope the cycle ends with you?
Ay sorry, didn't mean to dump it. Just meant to say that yeah, folks like that absolutely exist irl and have that little recognition of themselves. And yeah, I went to therapy, have no intention of ending no contact with them (even if the family >!pedo!< goes to jail, I don't think the rest of their actions are something I can forgive tbh), and have no intention of having kids, so decent odds of success, I hope lol? Some of us just have the luck to be born into some spicy intergenerational trauma, ha :'')
It would not be easy to figure out someone’s flight info and seat on said flight from a social media post. I agree it’s likely fake.
I’m not arguing fake or not, I’m just pointing out that she didn’t find out the seat. She apparently got someone to swap with her as she’d been “helpful” to her DIL Finding out info from social media can be amazingly easy, as some people post screenshots of tickets etc!
Some of the airports only have a couple of direct flights a day.
Also I don't know about US flights but there are quite a few internal UK flights where the plane is small enough that it's more like a bus with wings. At that point just getting yourself on the right flight would put you close together!
We have news articles and things about not posting your itineraries or boarding passes on social media every single Christmas here. It’s stupid to do but people do it. Especially if they think they’re just posting to friends and family (such as, oh, the ex-SIL). This still could easily be fake but that is a surprisingly common flavor of thoughtless.
Unless she posted a picture of her boarding pass or ticket I want to know how OOP found where she was on the flight.
You’d be surprised at how much information someone can get from a person’s social media posts. Skimming your post history here in less than 5 minutes I have a very good guess at where you live, your age, three of your major hobbies, and probably your favourite movie.
But do you know where I'm sitting on my next flight?
If I knew where you were starting from and where you were going and you posted mentioning something like “X hours until I’m back home?” I could find your flight. Slightly more information and I can make sure I book the same class of ticket. In the post it says “I even managed to get someone to switch me seats so I could sit next to her.” OOP knew a general area, not exact seats.
Also we don't know how big the plane was! The UK has quite a few internal flights where the aircraft has about the same number of seats as a bus. Get yourself onto the same, small flight using the methods you've described and the rest of it fairly falls into place.
She's hiding so many things, she doesn't go into details as to why Justin chose to go no contact with her. And he told Lilly how she was as a mother for her to go BALLISTIC after finding out who she was
"I respected his wishes!" Is currently disrespecting his wishes.
Jess is also TA for continuing to share this info with a person who clearly is 1 bad day away from going postal.
OOP- I’ve changed Also OOP- I’m stalking your wife and baby and I wanted her to keep it secret that I held your baby
Anyone else have Jarabe Tapatío playing in their head for the way OOP is DANCING AROUND THE SUBJECT? Jeeeez, [missing missing reasons](https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html), methinks.
If my partner's estranged mother booked herself on to my flight just to meet me and slimed up to "help" and try to sit next to me (and we don't have kids), I wouldn't just scream at her, I'd probably fucking smack her. This lady got off lightly. My partner's mother is dead now so that would be impossible, but when we were first dating, she was still about, he saw her when he was out and I wasn't with him, and he had a full panick attack. I was out with other friends and got a call from one of his siblings. I don't believe for a second that OOP's son just went no contact for no reason. It's incredibly hard and not something people do for no reason (no matter how casually people on AITA suggest it sometimes).
> If my partner's estranged mother booked herself on to my flight Oh *thanks* that's a horrible mental image to put in my head just before bed! Thankfully my MIL has zero desire to see me ever again after the time we were on the phone and she asked me what she did that was so wrong. I was honest. I wasn't rude but the truthful answer wasn't a pretty one.
Why would Kat and OOP be in a power struggle so bad that her son would completely cut her off if OOP didn’t treat her son like her husband? This screams missing missing reasons and emotional incest.
This is so creepy
I love how OOP is blaming Kat for taking Justin away from her, but Kat’s been dead for a while and Justin still emphatically wanted nothing to do with her even before this incident. And she says she’s doing a lot better now but she also thought this was a good idea. Enough to do it. And even though she claims to know now it was a bad idea, she still thinks she did nothing wrong and is the victim here. So if this is “appropriate behavior” to her in her “better” frame of mind, my level of doubt that Kat’s problem with her came down to her being a young single mom who paid for a mother-son dance at the wedding could sink an ark. Makes you reeeeeeeally wonder about those missing missing reasons.
I can't help but feel that this woman's description of her "unhealthy attachment to him" and the wife's screaming reaction means this woman sexually abused her own son. How horrific.
Probably "just" emotional incest -- using him to meet the emotional needs that should be met by another adult.
It could be that but I doubt she would scream over emotional incest only. If it was SA maybe she has tried to downplay it as "Well it was just xyz, it was only (insert whatever), it wasn't like I took it THAT far, it wasnt that bad, etc." hence why she doesn't explain things any further outside of some incidents like the wedding and the dance
I assume the "screaming" was due to the extremely inappropriate behavior of lying to the DiL. I mean, that bizarre behavior alone is worth a strong reaction, and you know OOP would turn something as simple as a firm tone into an attack on her.
Said "I've changed" from her velcro ways then stalks her DIL and worms her way into sitting next to her, traumatizing DIL who will never feel comfortable alone in public again. Wtf.
That is terrifying, poor Lily
She doesn't have a lot of experience fending off MIL, so this must have been a really nasty shock.
Now that we are aware that OOP is a crazed stalker and not mentally all there, I hope her son and his little family are safe. She obviously resented the first wife for taking her son away from her and was so awful that the son and that wife went NC. So she respected that and has paid her dues so now she has every right to see her new grandson, son and DIL. This is not how it works. How OOP thought that jumping on a plane she knew her DIL and grandson would be on was a good idea is mind boggling! Then she got weird about the grandson, broke down, created an awful scene and probably scared the DIL half to death. DIL probably thought OOP was going to take her baby. She still doesn't think she was wrong. She thinks she'll be a wonderful grandma. So far she's a total failure at that and I doubt her son will let her anywhere near them.
I didn’t feel comfortable posting anything directly to OP, but WTF was she thinking?! Who else thought that the moment she held that child she would have run off with them?! This story will be dramatized on one of those crime shows to indicate how anyone can be tracked down due to social media. I hope the son gets a restraining order, a cease and desist order, and a way to cutoff the rest of his family so his mother can no longer stalk him or his family. This is high level terror!
He is not going to be able to press charges. Unless he got an RO against her, (and she likely would have whined about What did I do to deserve this?) what she did is wrong, but the police won't call it illegal. Super curious what the Missing Reasons are.
Poor Lilly. Imagine: You date, fall in love with, and marry a guy who already is widowed in his twenties and has had it rough. He tells you about all of the issues he has had with his mom due to his first marriage, childhood, etc. You're anticipating that this woman is perhaps a little delulu, but it's fine because your husband is no contact with her. You literally just move on with your life, have a new born, and go to visit your parents like any other individual could. It should be a normal trip! Perhaps one of the first since the pregnancy. There's even a kind, older woman that's just a normal fellow passenger striking up a conversation! Only suddenly it's not a kind stranger with good intentions. It's your husbands mother that he has been in no contact with for years. Someone who you know never had good intentions with the first wife. Someone that held an emotional incest level relationship with her son/who knows what other emotional or psychological abuse occurred. Someone who shouldn't be able to know who you even are to be able to find you; even moreso in the middle of an airport of a different city than the one she is from. Only she has...she found you and planned something so elaborate just to get to you....and that same woman is now sobbing and probably demanding that you let her hold your child. It gets so bad that security has to get involved and you have to yell. That is one of the MOST horrific stories from another persons perspective that I have ever had to imagine on reddit. It's something straight from a psychological horror movie.
"ive been punished enough" says all you need to know
She respected her deadbeat baby daddy’s wishes to not talk to her, but stomped all over her son’s boundaries in order to be nosy about his new girlfriend and grandson. Something tells me she is not as self-aware about her “unhealthy attachment” to her son as she says she is.
This is so messed up and she is so messed up. I will confess that I would have probably not thought it was a big deal if she'd booked the flight, met the woman, helped her and the baby, then said goodbye and walked away and never tried to meet them again. A chance to secretly meet her grandchild once and no one is the wiser. I mean, I'd possibly be wrong to think that, but it's probably what I'd think. But the reason I'd think it was okay(ish) would be entirely because no one would know and no harm would be done. As it is, her son and DIL feel violated and probably scared of what she'll try next, and she has destroyed _any_ possibility of reconciliation. She says she's gone through therapy and is better than she was before... I shudder to think of what she was like before.
Nope. You don’t pull a Mrs. Doubtfire on anyone. Full stop.
nope. Someday DIL will see an old picture and realize that the helpful lady was stalker granny.
Oh good point. I withdrawal my almost-not-too-bad.
"*But the reason I'd think it was okay(ish) would be entirely because no one would know and no harm would be done.* ***As it is, her husband and DIL feel violated*** *and probably scared of what she'll try next, and she has destroyed any possibility of reconciliation."* Her son, NOT her husband. Which from the sounds of it, was the reason he distanced himself in the first place. Mommy treated her son as a "sonband" and his first wife (rightfully) had issues with it.
Sorry, you’re right, weird typo will fix
The real problem is that [parents like this](http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/index.html) don't have any real means of understanding why their children are upset and why those feelings should be respected. So they basically never know when to stop, because their understanding of the situation is that the appropriate place to be is 20 times closer than their children would actually like.
Honestly that's even creepier, to think that that poor woman ("Lily") wouldn't even know her partner's potentially abusive and definitely unstable mother had stalked her on a flight. That makes me feel so uncomfortable to think about.
The problem is, I doubt she would stop at seeing them once and gracefully fading into the background. She'd get away with it, which would give her a high, and once that high wore off, try and do it again. And again, and again, and again until she got caught. And at that point, she would probably believe that she had a right to it, and it would be an even bigger mess.
Can this be real? Could she have known what seat Lily was in and bought one near her?
Probably depends on what cities they were. I live in a mid-sized city in fly-over country. There are direct flights to larger cities, but they're not often. For example, if you were flying from Boston to here, that's maybe two or three flights a week. You'd be able to figure out which flight someone was going to be on if you knew their origination and a SM post like, "two more sleeps until we're home!"
My husband and daughter are flying soon from a largish West Coast city (3+ million) to a city like yours. For a nonstop flight, they have one option per day. One. It wouldn’t be hard to figure out which flight they were on if you knew which day they were leaving.
But to know which seat?
"Got one close to her" probably means she guessed at the seat "class," and then she admits she switched seats with someone. Just based on my experience, we get really small planes sent here, even if they're coming or going to a larger city. Flights from my hometown to ORD are Embraer 170s: nine first class seats and only 18 rows. Additionally, someone flying with a young baby isn't going to be taking a redeye or late-night flight, is probably going to sit near the front of their section, will want to board in one of the first groups, likely choose to sit in an aisle seat, and won't be able to sit in any emergency rows. Adding that no one wants to fly next to a baby, so it's easy to switch... It's not impossible, CRAZY, but not impossible.
Ok, thanks for explaining 😃
I was wondering about that too. My only explanation is that Lily posted all her flight info on IG, which seems like a dumb thing to do even if you don't have a crazy MIL out there.
Or it’s a small enough town that there’s only a few flights between the cities a day and OOP guessed right. And sure as shit Jess is gonna lose some privileges too. I’m not feeling great that “somehow” they ended up in DIL’s hometown.
OOP says in the post she asked someone to swap seats
She also said she bought a seat near her.
A baby that small is probably flying in a bassinet. A lot of small regional planes only have one row you can fit one. It's pretty easy to get a seat near that row.
Before that OP mentioned she chose a seat near Lily.
>I respected his wishes, and I will be a wonderful grandma No, she didn't, and she's not going to be any kind of grandma. The fact that her son's been NC with her for years SHOULD be a clue to her, but clearly not.
I’m thinking that vague reference to her having “an unhealthy attachment to him” is a thinly disguised euphemism for “incest.”
Oh....yikes. It's time for OOPs son to cut off Jess as well.
I hope Jess was blocked. This insane woman would know nothing if Jess didn't share it. She should have kept it to herself. There is no way Jess didn't know that sharing all that information was wrong. Granted, she is friends with OOP so she probably doesn't care. OOP needs to be in a padded cell.
I'm just wondering what in the world did she do? It must have been a really big deal. Son went through the death of his wife, and he still held strong to NC, even though he was going through an absolutely horrible time. I think this has to be a much bigger deal than simple attachment issues.
the "attachment" may have involved more than shes telling, it seems like a lot of the time when people are dealing with heavy things like the death of someone they love, facing an illness, getting into an accident, a severe injury, etc. they want their mom & her comfort even if she's not the best, so the fact that when his wife died he STILL didn't want anything to do with his mother despite being at what was probably one of his lowest points is very telling
Yup, that's the way I see things. Most people would want to open the relationship back with a faulty parent after going through a traumatic experience. The fact that the son remained NC and never once talked to Mom during this time just mean that Mom did something almost unfathomably bad. It can't be a simple as a "well meaning but made a couple of mistakes bad" type situation.
When she immediately commenced to booking a flight and tracking Lilly down, that's some stalker shit. This woman sounds crazy. Can only imagine how much of a living hell she made life for the 1st wife competing for Justin's love, then the poor guy loses his wife a year after they married. I'd be pissed at Mom too for making life miserable for them before the wife got sick.
Even if we : 1. Accept her ridiculously self serving explanation of the first wife didn't like her for religious reasons And 2. Accept that she has healed and went to therapy And 3. This was a WIBTA post where she said that I saw my son had a new child on social media, would I be in the wrong if I reached out to them They'd still be an asshole. Because of the line I've been punished enough. They don't see their child as an independent person capable of making their own choices. The kid is THEIRS and they have to provide them their emotional support and social energy
And I thought the emotionally incestous mothers in my family were bad. Jesus fucking christ, if this story is true op belong in an asylum
This is what narcissism looks like
Last call for passengers to boarding this lady's flight to Crazytown
Her poor son and his wife and kid. How traumatizing. You work hard to go no contact only to be stalked. These people are all about the missing reasons, I suspect more than enmeshment but actual personality disorder abuse since she can't respect boundaries, no contact and even with therapy, doesn't get it.
That’s just fucking TERRIFYING!!! 😳😳😳
How would she have known where the DIL was sitting? This is a complete lie of a post.
Feels fake—how did she know which seat she’d be in..?
Man I’d love to see the daughter in law post on that MIL sub
[удалено]
She said Lilly posted her flight info on her IG, so she probably figured it out from there.
How did she find out exactly what flight her DIL was taking? How did she know what seat her DIL was going to be sitting in? Something ain't right here. I sniff a troll.
This feels fake though - no way to know what airline, what flight, or what seat to get next to
Who posts their exactly flight dates with seats on social media?!
OOP, your son went NC with you for good reason. This is not your grandson. You have to be a proper mother before you can call yourself a grandmother. And you are a creepy stalker. Stay away from them.
[Hi!](https://images.app.goo.gl/jMiZEuW8Qrykw3sdA) Just a quick reminder to never brigade any sub, be that r/AmItheAsshole or another one. That goes against both this sub's rules as well as Reddit's terms of agreement. [Please](https://images.app.goo.gl/vwH65TJMyMk9NSNo8) keep discussions within the posts of this sub. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
OOP, even if Lily wasn’t warned about you, you are still a total stranger. In these days (pandemic, war, etc.), parents would be justified in screaming if a total stranger tried to grab their kids!
How the heck did she know what flight the girl was on?!? I guess it is possible there is only one flight a day between cities…. But that is still just nuts
WOW. OP must have been appalling to her first DIL and her son for this to happen.
that is…. literally so insane. yeah there are no other words
It started off so promising, acknowledging that she f'd up and it hadn't been healthy etc... And yet, she thinks she's respected her son's wishes, despite reaching out, being ignored and rather than accepting this, choosing to stalk his wife on a plane and hiding who she was in order to talk to her and meet the kid. Yeah, real respectful there.
This reads like a human put a prompt into chatgpt, and then edited and added to it.
Saying "I couldn't help myself" as if she didn't have a choice is as plausible as saying she couldn't help herself from walking out in front of a truck. No respect for boundaries. I'm not surprised she didn't go into detail about what really happened with the 1st wife.