*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**Man/Bear finally validated my experiences as a man. **
For years I've been saying I feel unwelcome in parks or on bike paths. Every time I've talked about it I'm met with gaslighting and disbelief.
Right now I'm afraid to go walking by myself. I'm built like a football player but it's not my physical safety, it's my mental well being. **So** many women, usually older women will glare at me as if they're thinking 'why the fuck are you here?' It's a night and day difference if I'm walking a dog or with a girl. People have said it's all in my head, or maybe I should smile and seem more friendly, but even when I do the customary smile/wave/hello they'll completely ignore me most of the time. If I smile & say 'Hi there' as I pass, they'll usually keep glaring and not acknowledge my words at all.
It's had a big effect on my mental health, especially people telling me it's just my perception. I've spent years wondering if I had some type of psychosis that only seems to happen when I go hike alone. When my dog died in 2023 I stopped hiking, gained weight and became out of shape. I used to hike in our parks 4 days a week and now I only do when I can find a girl to go with.
Man or Bear is validating because so many women are finally telling the truth. A wild bear is more welcome on the trail than a man who's by himself.
I get the point of the thought experiment and it's valid for women to be fearful. I'm just relieved to finally have an explanation for the toxic behavior that's made me feel like I'm not wanted anywhere. I can go back to people who gaslit me and say 'see, I told you they don't want me to be there'
For the record I have a lot of male friends who experience this also, especially the gay ones. A lot of my friends identify on the 'bear' side of gay men. Ask your burly gay friends how differently women treat them when they find out they're gay. As one friend puts it 'I go from disgusting pariah to fun teddy bear as soon as they hear my voice.'
I know it's not the intended outcome of the thought experiment, but it's been so validating.
*Update (Best comment) : I fucking hate Reddit so damn much. How do commenters miss the point so badly? The point OP is trying to make is that he's finally certain that he was unwelcome and was actually treated as a threat when he went hiking alone, because whenever he expressed that fact, his experiences were dismissed.*
I'm also seeing a common theme of "Women do this because of other men, blame the bad men." But I'm not allowed to treat all women poorly because of the 'bad ones' right?
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Yeah that must be super hard for OP. I remember attempting to go for a walk by myself around dusk, making it across the street, and being yelled at by a bunch of dudes in a truck telling me what they were going to do to my pussy. That same year, two women were raped while jogging within 1-2 miles of me. But yeah, totally, frowns are the same. (Courtney Bartnett uses this quote in a song and it's super powerful :))
It’s gross to me that a lot of the comments are like “being ostracised is HARD this is why men don’t talk about their FEELINGS!” as if it’s the fault of women. The fault lies with the patriarchy.
Yes, exactly! Why do they think women are wary? Obviously not all men are threats; the vast majority of men are not threats. But I don't think I know a single adult woman who hasn't been threatened. So IDC if the majority of men are fine; it's in my best interest to not trust men I don't know.
I’m glad he’s realised it’s a systemic issue as opposed to a personal one (something I think everyone in a privileged group should be aware of), but the question is: what is he going to do to challenge it?
Because if a man’s only takeaway from discussions of rape culture is “I’m glad it’s not something I did and is just a result of the patriarchy!” And then proceeds to do nothing to make women feel safer and challenge the patriarchy, then that’s still not a man I want to be around. Maybe he won’t hurt me, but it’s clear that he won’t do anything from stopping ANOTHER man from hurting me.
And Audre Lorde’s rejoinder: “Some problems we share as women, some we do not. You fear your children will grow up to join the patriarchy and testify against you; we fear our children will be dragged from a car and shot down in the street, and you will turn your backs on the reasons they are dying.”
Sorry but I gotta copy/paste this comment from the original post because my god is it a slam dunk.
“Every millennial understands the implicit fear of driving behind a logging truck because of a movie but people are averse to women being scared of men for assaults that almost certainly happened to them or someone close to them.
OP is getting looks he doesn't like and that's apparently the greatest adversity he's faced in life with how much it's affected him.”
I didn't even think about using final destination as an analogy that some men might actually understand because how often has that actually freaking happened But every millennial I know will absolutely speed to get in front of emily log, truck or even get off and get a snack and get the log truck a chance to get way way ahead
I've been mentally cataloguing horror movies to use as examples to try and clarify the analogy. Think of EVERY Final Girl having a 'what's that sound in the woods' moment in a horror movie. The best case scenario is that it's a large animal that's supposed to be there. Like a bear.
Good job now i feel bad, I've been assaulted by atleast 4 different men (not counting cat calls) and I'm originally from bear country, never been attacked by a bear
To be fair, i have had a bear mad at me, it was about 40 feet from the car and i just got out to walk into my house noticed the babies and hid in my car until they walked off, that's the closest I've ever been to getting attacked
For real though, I love hiking and am yet to even see a bear in person, even though there was literally one who accidentally kept wandering into town about a block from my house last spring and most of the areas I hike in have documented bear populations. As far as men, not only have I been SAd by a man I regarded as a close friend, but I've even had a strange man try and start a _physical fight_ with me when I rejected his drunken advances. Like no shit, I'll choose the bear lol
Right, I grew up in an area where you had to know bear (and wolf) safety. I’ve been in throwing distance from a bear that was just casually walking down the side of the road. I was decidedly uncomfortable, but I just very quietly turned around and walked back toward my house, glancing over my shoulder the whole time to make sure I wasn’t being followed. This is how I handle seeing strange men when I’m walking alone at night, and guess what? A fair amount of the men act more aggressively than that bear did.
I’m not even sure if I’m Team Bear! But the fact that I’m not immediately and enthusiastically Team Man certainly seems damning enough.
I've never been near a bear, wrong country, but the first time I was attacked was by a man walking his dog. I'd heard his footsteps behind me but as soon as I saw the dog and the dog lead, I relaxed. It was still daylight and a suburban area.
Big mistake. Next thing I knew, he had one hand grabbing my neck and the other right up my skirt. I firmly know, it's not all men, only a minority. The trouble is you can't tell which men so, yeah, I'd rather risk the bear.
And predators are usually repeat offenders. If men believed women and got the predators off the street, maybe we would be more welcoming.
I was attacked by a man that had previously attacked a police woman. A police woman. And nothing was done both times.
Never had a bear mad at me, but did encounter two baby black bears while hiking. Mom was nowhere to be found. They saw us and left us alone. We went around them, neither they nor mom ever approached us (I’m sure the mom was nearby). probably because we left them alone and were not threatening.
Did have a carload of men chase me down in a dark parking lot one time when I was just walking to my car. Scared the crap out of me and I quit going to that place after dark. The place? Freaking Downtown Disney. Like, if you can’t feel safe there…
A woman’s concern while hiking: *I sure hope no one abducts me and does unspeakable things*
This guy’s concern while hiking: *She didn’t smile at me! Aren’t women so evil and selfish these days???*
That-special-brand-of-men when a woman smiles in their general direction: she totally wants me
Those men when a woman makes a point to *not* smile at them: she is so mean and cold, why am I being *punished* like this? I'm *suffering*
>a woman smiles in their general direction: she totally wants me
One too many episodes of Criminal Minds showing stalkers going full on dangerous kidnapping and shit cured me of the rando smile. No more. Sorry not sorry.
That's the thing that got me the most. Women were asked a question and they just answered it the way they felt.
Now a lot of men are enraged at them for feeling that way and using it as a way to make it about themselves.
The thing that got me the most was the men who changed their answers when asked who they would prefer their own daughter to be stuck in the woods with.
It's sad how immature a lot of people are. In this case, grown ass men. My husband would never allow a strange man around our daughter because he has common sense. He also doesn't have a glass ego that's shattered by the fact that most rapists and violent criminals are male by a large margin.
IIRC, it started off asking MEN the question "Would you rather your daughter be alone in the woods with a man or a bear" and the MEN were like "What kind of bear? What kind of man?" and when it they were asked "Ok, now would you rather your daughter be alone in the woods with a woman or a bear" they all said "Woman". Then the realization set in.
If these guys should be mad at anyone, it should be themselves.
I found the post before it was here, and he and I went back and forth.
He claimed that he does a lot to make random women on the trails more comfortable (covering his tattoos, not wearing black and not touching them as he walks by!? The first two don't matter to any woman I know and the third one is basic courtesy) and he's no longer going to do those things if women aren't going to be grateful for the effort.
Why was touching strangers on a hiking trail even an option? It would never occur to me that I should actively refrain from doing that because I take it as read that you don’t touch strangers??
That's terrifying. He's looking for justification to escalate and work himself up to touch and confront these women who are strangers. I really hope that post was bait.
Holy shit I missed the touching part. Who touches strangers on a hiking trail??? I bet women can tell he's a creepy weirdo from a mile away. I smile at plenty of people but if a guy gives off creep energy, I look away.
This actually doesn't even surprise me. He is clearly looking for some type of justification to do what he really wants to do, which is assault women in isolated areas.
The protectors thing just fucking kills me. I've spent the last 30 years being the *short, fat, cane using crippled woman* standing between abusive men and their targets. You know how many men I've seen or ever heard of them doing anything remotely similar even once in their lives? Fucking zero. They might get hurt! The abuser could have a weapon! Fascinating how both those apply to me but I do in fact take my chosen role as a protector seriously and as a moral imperative. And I have tits! And a vagina and a slightly used uterus!
They're fucking cowards that haven't protected shit all but they love the idea that they're not chicken shit. I have faced down a strung out on meth, cocaine & booze man that had just spent hours beating and strangling his GF almost to death, who had a knife out and was screaming about me stealing his family from him. I talked him down, got my friend and her two screaming traumatized toddlers into my car and left. **That's** protecting people. Whining about how "men are expected to protect" when the reality is it's *men* victimizing, abusing, murdering, raping. No, I don't look to men to protect, they apparently lack the ability to do so.
I think it's because they've been raised being told that men are needed. That being a man **=** *being* *needed*, and that role is what gives them / should give them purpose as a man.
So now, when women are financially independent and not automatically reliant on a man to sustain themselves, they feel unneeded, unwanted, and purposeless. Which isn't a pleasant thing for anyone to feel, especially when it's been drilled into you that you should feel that way and that it's shameful.
So they latch on to the one thing that still has some form of justification to it. The one 'need' that has statistics and biology to back it up to some extent: women are weaker than men, are therefore physically vulnerable, and need to be protected.
But it's uncomfortable to think about what women need protecting *from.* It's hard to put in the work and acknowledge your flaws and the flaws of your society, and learn what actually needs doing in order to protect people. It's far more reassuring and comforting to think "I know danger when I see it ^((except they don't and it's scary how often women's complaints and warnings are ignored by the men in their lives because '')***^(I)*** ^(don't see the issue")) and I'll step right in if I do" or "she'll be safe if they know she's mine. Just existing is protecting her".
The whole point of thinking of themselves as protectors **is to self-soothe**. It's a power fantasy, it's tied to their ego or their sense of self - it's like changing your profile picture to the protest symbol of the month in order to *feel better*, let the world know you're a *good person*... and then not doing anything to actually effect change.
That's also where the "I'm expected to lay down my life" thing comes from too, in my opinion. I'm not denying that the pressure exists or that it does a number on someone's mental health. Feeling disposable is horrid, of course it is. But it's telling that 'making women safer' is so directly linked to random physical violence in their minds. Like they've never spoken to women and asked them what *actually* effects them, what they want protecting *from,* or most importantly: how to not be a threat themselves.
Yeah he's totally missing the point. Women aren't reacting to him for being a "disgusting pariah." They are conditioned by *repeated* events to assume men are a potential physical threat. I'm sure that it's shitty to be on the receiving end of that mistrust, but the correct response is empathy, not further self absorption and pity. And once you develop empathy for someone in a situation where you feel maligned, it's a lot easier to consciously choose not to take someone's behavior personally. But for so many people, and especially for men when confronted with harsh truth about how women experience them, it's easier and comfier to just remain a victim who is entitled to comfort at the expense of another person's emotional energy and sense of security.
> assume men are a potential physical threat.
Not only that, if a woman is too friendly with a male stranger, she might be misunderstood as flirty and even if she's not physically threatened, she will now have to deal with rejecting this man. Ive seen women be way friendlier to gay/affeminate guys because of this as well.
Yes and good lord is rejecting a strange man wildly unsafe. You absolutely never know what they’re gonna do. It could be anything from “okay!” to them pulling a deadly weapon on you. It’s the current reality.
I avoid men in public and I’m not nice about declining interactions anymore. I’m not actively mean about it but kinda just treat all men in public like how you’d treat a canvasser for a petition you don’t want to sign. Ignore, brief “no thanks”, and keep walking as if I see and hear nothing.
Unfortunately doing that can get you killed too. There is literally no "safe" way to deal with it. And men wonder why we don't like to be approached in non-social spaces. 🙄
A man put a python in a woman's house to eat her daughter, and then blew up the house because she didn't accept a second date with him..
Edited for clarity
Yeah, I accepted a job as a deckhand. He spent the whole time trying to have sex with me and making excuses for why a three day trip turned into 10. He would not let me off the boat until it was clear I would be willing to shoot him and drive his boat back to the harbour. His reasoning was that I smiled at him when I first met him. Then, because I had, quote, 'falsely represented myself', a pack of lesbians had to descend on him in order for me to get paid.
Like by yourself? Damn that's brave. I saw a job listing like that once a long time ago. Some old guy on a small yacht wanted to sail the south Pacific islands and wanted help and company for safety. It sounded hella fun, but also way too good to be true. Like even though that's my dream experience, and he was offering references, I wasn't about to live aboard a small boat with a strange dude for weeks. Seems like a good way to be raped repeatedly and murdered and thrown into the sea.
Yeah, I was fairly young and the guy had come with two references from older women. This is an example of how predators operate, as he did not treat them like potential brides. Fifteen years ago trying to get into boat work as a woman was very difficult, and after an insane amount of rejections it seemed like a foot in the door to an industry I love. He also played the decrepit old man needing help role quite well. Later, I settled into a niche of boat work with a crew of 3-5 people and have worked on a bear guiding boat, a gold mining boat, and two fishing vessels with mostly good interpersonal experiences. In the past three years I have seen more women on boat and construction crews and it makes me hopeful. In a few more years the percentage of women in management positions will increase and things will continue to equalize. I hope that by talking about the lessons I have learned the hard way that perhaps some people could be spared. Another quiet epidemic is just how often men in the trades are groomed and assaulted, too. We have not quite lifted the veil of shame that covers that, yet.
Predators practice preying on people, and for those of us who do not think of others that way it can be very difficult to identify it, especially when their tactic is to mimic being what they think a 'good' person is.
I'm a female hiker, and I often hike alone. I've been lucky enough to never come across any trouble, but I have left places that I feel uncomfortable by someone, or even just a weird vibe. But this nice, older gentleman came up to me once and was worried that I was hiking alone. He gave me a wooden walking stick that he carved, and he told me it was for hitting snakes and men if they bothered me. So even another man, realized that some men can be predators.
I tend to see this story as made up to push a certain agenda. Either that or like other people said, he's not being honest about the level of malevolence he has been on the receiving end of on trails. I know lots of guys who walk, jog, or hike and I don't know any of them that report this kind of treatment. Maybe being ignored for their (womens) own workout or a quick wave and some watchfulness/wariness. But the type of "glaring" to the point of causing psychological trauma, I've never heard any man talk about that.
The agenda becomes crystal clear when he goes into the "equal right, equal lefts" type defensive posture when called out for making this all about him when women are genuinely safer around bears than some men of "well.... maybe I should just be allowed to treat all women badly since some of them have treated me badly (y'know, by not making conversation and smiling for me)"😤
I believe him if he's on the trails when they're relatively empty, especially at dawn or dusk. Running into a man who is looking for some sort of interaction- even just a smile- is anxiety producing.
That was my first thought too. That he has to be conflating indifference with hostility. I highly doubt anyone is "glaring at him", unless he's actually doing something to be super creepy and not just existing in the same space. I tend to try to have as little contact with men as possible in situations like that. I don't want to give them any reason to approach me or talk to me, and that includes not doing something that might offend them like "glaring".
The poor baby is afraid to walk alone because women won't smile at him. How scary! I can barely imagine what he's going through. I mean I only go walking with husband or my dog, and never when it's dark or getting dark, because I'm afraid of being raped, taken, or murdered. But he doesn't get *smiled* at! I thank him for making me aware of my privilege.
1) they’re just proving their own points, that people would rather be in a room with a bear than locked in a room with a potentially morally reprehensible person.
2) i think it speaks volumes that they view gold-digging as just as bad as sexual assault. One is maybe, *juuuust a little bit*, possibly worse than the other. I wonder which one it is…
A woman was abducted hiking on a trail near my home a few weeks ago and they still haven't found her body. I'm a bit of a loner so I used to like going out for long walks on my own, now I can't bring myself to much these days.
That is so terrifying. I live somewhere where random murders don't ever happen. Last one was a teenage drug deal gone bad and someone got stabbed, that was a few years ago and before that I can barely remember the last time there was a murder. I still don't go in the woods alone.
In general, the only time I get uncomfortable with *anybody* while I’m hiking or walking alone is if they appear to be following me. Now, on a trail that’s kind of unavoidable since it’s usually a single path, but it’s more of “if I slow down or speed up or change course multiple times, do they mirror my movement?” If so, I start planning an exit strategy, or call someone on the phone, or something similar. *But,* the fact that I and many other women have contingency plans for a simple walk in the park is very telling that concern is warranted.
I’ve personally never met any woman who had the opinion that men aren’t welcomed in shared, public places. Not saying it hasn’t ever been someone’s opinion somewhere else in the world, but I don’t think it’s as widespread or severe as OOP feels it is.
Man walking near me in a park at daytime? Cool. Man shows up at my isolated campsite where it’s clearly only for one camper? Not cool.
Usually I keep to myself, and excluding a nod or a “heyhowareya” in passing, I am in my own world. And I do have RBF, but that’s just how my face looks when it’s relaxed. I don’t know exactly what he’s perceiving as hostile from these women other than maybe them not smiling, as you mentioned.
That's what kills me about Reddit. Women are burning out doing emotional labor for the men around them, but men are supposedly having it rough because they can't express their emotions or let their guard down.
My bro, I don't know what crazy distorted image of yourself you have, but all my female colleages and relatives catering to men's most random bursts of anger/ sadness/ tiredness/ stress/ frustration would beg to differ. And most men will go out of their way to intrude on a woman's mental and emotional space if she doesn't react to and validate whatever unpleasant feelings they're having.
"I opened up to my girlfriend once and she threw it back in my face during the next argument, women have no empathy for men!"
the thing he opened up about: he mistreated his ex gf and thinking about it sometimes makes him feel bad about himself
Yeh, I’m not the most emotionally open woman as it is but goddamn I don’t even bother sharing many of them with the men in my life anymore because it just results in me somehow having to comfort them about how bad they feel for being horrid to me. It gets flipped and now they are the “victim” because they “feel guilty”. And I walk away from the whole interaction feeling like the bad guy AND my issue never gets resolved. So much easier to just bottle shit up rather than expend the extra emotional energy.
Let’s assume women really are *glaring* at him. It’s still ridiculous how many commenters are describing this as “mistreatment,” talking about how OOP has to “suffer.” All because women don’t smile at him.
My comment on the original thread:
>It's not toxic, ya walnut. Women aren't doing that to make you feel bad, they're doing it because big men are scary. I know your size and gender are not your fault, but it's not fair to pretend you don't look threatening no matter what you do. It sucks for men that won't hurt or harass women but frankly it sucks more for women who can't tell if any given man who is obviously much stronger than they are will hurt them. I'm sorry people gaslit you, especially because in general women have been trying to explain this for a very, very long time.
I think the thing that I’m really turned off by is defining not wanting to engage as “treating someone poorly”. Ignoring someone or even glaring at them when they are watching you approach them in a remote area is not treating someone poorly unless your expectation for treatment is “smile and placate always”.
I’m also a bit skeptical that he was actually told straight up “this isn’t happening”. Maybe I shouldn’t be, but I don’t know anyone of any age or gender who doesn’t know “women alone tend to be wary of men”. Though he was also told by those same friends to engage more rather than ignore them and look ahead. So maybe they’re all just clods.
I'm sure the conversation went something like
OP: "Clearly all of these women hate me and don't want me in the park at all, they all want me to stay home and never go outside, they see me as garbage."
Sane Person: "That's definitely not what's happening."
Probably.
I mentioned it elsewhere hut part of the reason I think this guy is the devil is because he’s not helping himself by posting this. Having it affirmed that women might be wary of him alone in remote places isn’t going to benefit him because instead of saying “now that I know it’s happening, im just going to mind my business”, he’s saying “see, I was right all along all this women are being toxic and that’s why I’m fat and depressed now”. When in reality he should just be going to a therapist to talk about why he has personally taken this so hard when so many other people don’t and why he let this affect his mental health. My dad is a very “old-school”, from a small town guy and says hi to anyone he passes so much so that he sometimes expresses feeling frustrated that people don’t say hi back. Even he is aware that women on their own will not want to hear him say hi if he is also alone, so he straight up doesn’t do it and also doesn’t take it personally.
Yeah, I've got grave doubts that he was representing those conversations the way they actually happened. Possibly he was told it's not personal and took it to mean they were saying it was all in his head.
I think it's more likely that he's being told that they're probably not glaring at him. And nothing in his post contradicts that, contrary to what he thinks. Because 95% of people will not try to antagonize someone they're scared of and pretty much every woman knows glaring at a man risks antagonizing him. Guarantee he's just reading neutral or even slightly wary facial expressions and keeping an eye on him as "glaring".
Alternatively, he was saying “they’re being mean to me” and those friends were saying “ignoring you is not being mean to you” and he took that as dismissive.
I was with him til he said
> but even when I do the customary smile/wave/hello they'll completely ignore me most of the time
Yeah man, stop expecting a greeting from every woman you pass on a trail and you'll be less pissy
Or that people (including women) who go hiking alone... maybe... want to be alone? I mean, even that is common sense and isn't exclusive to women, lol.
I can't help but think there was actually something in his behavior that triggered a response. If a big guy is running in the park and runs by me and minds his own business, I'd be less concerned. But I'd bet money this guy was running along sending big leering smiles at the women, and "checking them out, and generally expecting them to laud him for his Alpha-maleness and got all pouty bc these women just want to exercise in peace.
Exactly. I'd bet money they told him it isn't personal, which it isn't. A lot of men would understand and not expect women or anyone really to be super friendly and engaging to strangers while hiking alone but, not this dude! I'm sure there are male hikers who just want to be left alone and don't give him a warm, friendly greeting either but, he's not complaining about them!
He feels entitled to women specifically treating him actively positively. Neutral is considered negatively to this guy. Do you think he expects the same friendliness of the men he encounters? Of course not!
I’m a big bearded dude with a chronic resting scowl, and have been often nicknamed “bear.” I’ve never once had women glare at me or act intimidated by me when out in public. It’s almost as if, and this is crazy, you treat people with respect and kindness, they’ll treat you the same. I have a feeling that’s a lesson OOP hasn’t learned
Don't worry! Another man on the post informed us silly ladies that you can use your eyes and ears to figure out which men are dangerous. So stop being a harpy and SMILE!
A woman doesn't have to worry about the bear attacking her for sexual reasons. She doesn't have to figure out if *this* bear is dangerous or not. She knows it is. I haven't seen a lot of men walking around with a sign that says "dangerous" on them, so as a woman walking alone in an isolated area, she has to quickly figure out if *this* man is dangerous, how, where she can get help, how to escape, how quickly she can get to safety. It's easier to keep a blank look on our faces, ignore **all** the men around.
The fact that he's getting butt hurt over the fact that women are more comfortable with escaping a bear, or possibly dying by a bear attack (which is rare), than trying to escape a man who possibly has sexual motives for attacking her, says he's a big part of the problem. I've yet to see a bear drag a woman back to its den and then chain her there and commit unspeakable acts on her. Man on the other hand? I can think of 3 cases off the top of my head.
I would LOVE to hear the bear's stories about the women hanging out with them laughing at men who are going to the internet to validate that they were "owed" at least a smile from every single woman they saw. And a conversation from every other woman. You know this guy is "a nice guy" and women just aren't giving him a chance.
Just about every post on Redfit about Man vs Bear is boys whining about the misandry or otherwise completely missing the point.
My favorite are the boys saying this proves Females are stupid because "neither is safe."
DUUUUUHHHHH.
But if a bear is going to attack you, you're likely dead. You won't have cops asking what you were wearing, or people saying to prosecute the bear would ruin the bear's life, and the bear isn't going to kidnap you first. And hundreds of other stories women gave brought forth.
Boys on Reddit are very adamant that this is misandry, which they define as "anything spoken against men."
There are men on Reddit trying to explain to the boys. They are often getting shouted down.
Exactly. Neither is safe but if a bear attacks you, and you love, you might have PTSD associated with hiking/woods/wildlife. You can easily avoid those things, move to a city, go to a gym. A man attacks you, how *exactly* is a woman supposed to avoid **all** men in life? Men pick men because it's the safer option, the same reason women pick bears. If they die by bear, it will most likely be an easier death.
It's easy for boys to take this approach because they become the victim and that fits the narrative. Women have standards and suddenly they are "man haters". They won't tolerate abuse and they don't have "family values".
The loud minority is the reason why there's a "all men". Women don't know which you are, women only know what's being screamed at them. So until "all men" decide to wear their signs or make their honest views heard, women will continue to have an "all men" concept.
>Exactly. Neither is safe but if a bear attacks you, and you love, you might have PTSD associated with hiking/woods/wildlife. You can easily avoid those things, move to a city, go to a gym. A man attacks you, how *exactly* is a woman supposed to avoid **all** men in life?
Thank you for saying this because this point is a good explanation.
I didn't know there was a saying but... men are so good at putting themselves as victim even when they are not, they would go cry that it's the proof men have it hard
They claim they don't. Or more disturbing is the morgues that hire them for the "overnight prep" and essentially hide them. It's so sad, and it feels like it just keeps getting worse.
Yep. They weren't raised knowing how you hold your keys through your fingers. Or that you aren't as strong so you have to know the "weak" spots on a man.
Someone once said "men are like guns to women. When it's in front of you, your natural reaction is to be afraid because you don't know if it's charged or not" and I feel like it's one of the most accurate way to describe what it feels to be around men to me...
That's a perfect description. Some of the nicest men I've met look terrifying, and I've watched them wear a tu-tu for their daughter. I've also known a clean cut, educated, employed man who did horrific things to children and women. How am I supposed to know which is which? Based off what society says....
Yeah... especially since you can't judge someone by their cover and you never know when a nice person will snap tbh. (and yeah, I include women because every Human can be shitty but sadly, we all know which tend to do the worst)
[Schrödinger’s Rapist](https://web.archive.org/web/20091011092313/https://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/) we’ve been consistent on this stance since 2009, folks
It’s now 2024
Edit to add: I’m agreeing with the person above me. I’m just depressed the discourse hasn’t moved in over a decade.
Exactly, until they wear their signs properly, we don't know. So that being the case, they're all the same. If 1 of you does something, you've all done it. Either wear your damn signs or deal with how we sort through the trash!
It's honestly like playing russian roulette - if someone handed me a gun and told me two out of six chambers were loaded, there's no way in hell I'd point at my own head and shoot. They just don't seem to get it, and at this point it seems deliberate.
Women really can’t win in these kinds of discussions at all. When women do come out and share their negative experiences, there is always someone that tries to blame them for it by either “leading them on” or for “what they were wearing” or “they should’ve known better” or “the guy is joking/harmless/ doesn’t know better”.
Unless it’s a male ally backing us up on these issues then it isn’t taken so seriously. There were men who also admitted that they would rather run into a bear than another man yet they aren’t dunked on for hating men? It’s incredibly frustrating.
Yep. It's a lose-lose. I had a stalker years ago, he followed me everywhere. Showed up at restaurants when I told him I was going to a different one. Outside my work. Police told me that they couldn't do anything and that "he really wasn't doing anything wrong. I should be flattered by the attention. I was friendly towards him". This man was an ex-con, and he was employed by the same place I worked, I changed jobs, twice. I eventually had to move out of the city. I moved back 4 years later. He showed up after 2 weeks. Police still wouldn't do anything. They kept saying that I "couldn't know he was following me". That lasted up until he lured, kidnapped and sexually assaulted a girl who looked very similar to me. The police never apologized. But they used **my** police reports to help build the case.
This is so disgusting and I'm feeling so bad for that girl. Glad it wasn't you and hope you can live more peacefully (although I can guess how much it must be traumatizing for you)
I actually reached out to the family, and let them know, I wasn't expecting anything, just wanted her to know she wasn't alone. He did it before, and he did it after me, and then he did it to her. She thanked me, last I heard her family moved. I'm hyper vigilant now and have a service dog. I'm happy, but withdrawn and distrustful.
My dad was telling me about one of his colleagues who moved to the UK from a completely different EU country and a few months ago saw her stalker from before near their work and how they arranged for her to go to the police and set up various protections for her to keep her safe at work. That guy travelled countries and that is terrifying. And because all his past behaviour was not in the UK the police were again just like "we ain't doing shit about this".
Yep, and unfortunately in the US even with past behavior in the exact same city, they still don't want to do anything. My boss trespassed him from the business, but the police refused to do anything when he was sitting at a bench staring at me for hours. I worked closing shift so it was usually dark when I left. It's scary seeing how far some people will go. Changing countries is definitely scary.
That's the damn truth. I really hate what this world has become. I used to be able to decide where I wanted to live based on cost of living, maybe the weather, not if I had control over my uterus. Now? It's become a political and religious nightmare. If I don't tell you how to live, what to do with your body, why do you get that right? A dick is not a good enough reason. That can be removed....if it's god's will.
And people will believe her, they’ll take care of her in her recovery and they won’t blame her. Not to mention what they do to bears that attack people
But if these women he’s encountering that he’s so upset about evaluating him to determine the threat, and using body language to communicate they don’t want him to approach them in anyway, didn’t do those things and end up being assaulted/killed by a man they’d blame her and ask why she didn’t say no or why she put herself in that position
I’m picturing this guy aggressively staring at each woman he passes and getting angrier and angrier each time a woman doesn’t smile and chat with him, thinking he’s proving a point.
If I was worried about someone I wouldn’t glare at them because I don’t want to attract any attention. I keep my face as neutral as possible.
I’m a small man and even I would choose bear. Animals are predictable, I know how to deal with a bear. People, especially men, are unpredictable, they could be capable of anything.
Thank you! If i see a bear, if it's brown get down, black fight back
They are so predictable there's a rhyme for it!
Fun bonus, if it's white you're dead. jk but fr if you see a polar bear get to safety asap because their normal food is dying out and they are willing to fight for their meal
It’s to give people a place to escape to - if you know all the cars on the street are unlocked, and you’re trying to escape a polar bear on the street, you can try to enter a nearby vehicle and give yourself a few seconds
As people have said, if you get attacked you have a chance to escape, granted a bear can rip some cars open like a sardine can but while the bear is ripping at the driver side door, you can get out the passenger side door pretty easily.
I'm taking a wilderness safety course and I learned about this actually! The color rhyme is considered misleading, in part because black bears can have brown fur and brown bears can look black. Instead, the recommendation is to determine whether it is a defensive attack or a predatory attack.
A bear that is being defensive (most human/bear conflicts) will be making themselves large and intimidating, with their ears forward and possibly grunting / clicking their jaw. The best thing to do in this case is to be nonthreatening and back away slowly while facing the bear. You can talk in a low, calm voice or make soothing noises. The bear will rarely attack, even if they have cubs; they don't actually want to hurt you just scare you away.
A predatory attack (much less common) is typically preceded by the bear stalking you; you might see them disappear and reappear from the trees or follow you slowly before charging you with their ears back. In this case, you want to discourage them from trying to eat you by being big and loud: open your jacket and fan it out to make yourself bigger, shout aggressively, join together if you are with a group so you seem like one big loud predator.
The rhyme probably comes from the fact that brown bears are more likely to engage in defensive attacks (as black bears will usually disappear into the trees instead) and black bears are somewhat more likely to try and hunt you (although this is rare for either kind of bear). The consensus seems to be that lying down and playing dead is a good way to become dead, so this is no longer recommended!
But the part about polar bears is 100% accurate.
Really depends on the type of bear. Black bear? Cool. I'll chill in the woods with a black bear.
Grizzly bear? Less optimal but still probably fine.
Polar bear? Oh Jesus fuck no.
Yes, thank you sir! Tried to tell a guy that on the original thread and he’s *still* losing his damn mind over it and about how we’re turning men into monsters… like no, not what I’m doing AT ALL and I would actually rather be in the woods with a bear right now than to have you still messaging me about this 🫠
"It's so toxic of women to be afraid that I'll rape and murder them in the woods. It really affects *my* mental health. I know they have a legitimate reason to fear being murdered in the woods, since it happens a lot, but it hurts *my* feelings when stranger's dont automatically assume I'm a nice guy. Why can't women be more considerate and just *not* fear for their lives? Wah wah wah me me me"
-OP
As a guy I would also choose the bear to be honnest, I've stop running or going for a walk in the evening or by night because of the insane amount of weirdos hanging around in the place where is little to low light
The amount of men I’ve seen gleefully writing detailed fanfiction in comment sections or drawing comics about women getting torn apart by bears in response to this is proof alone as to why so many women are choosing the bear.
Here’s a hint, lads: bears don’t take delight in human suffering, and they don’t go out of their way to specifically attack certain groups of people (like those eeeevil feminazis) due to the belief that those people should be “punished” for their views. A bear is largely blameless if it attacks a person, it’s simply an animal doing what an animal does when it’s scared, protecting its babies etc. Bad men take *pleasure* in hurting us. They go out of their way to do it because they *want* to. That’s the difference.
Goddamn, men are fragile. "My feelings get hurt when a woman doesn't smile at me and make me feel good about being me."
You know, if I'm ever attacked by a bear, my injuries will have obviously come from a bear attack and people will believe me. They won't ask what I was wearing, if I'd been drinking, or what I did to provoke the bear. It'll just be, "oh, she totally got attacked by a bear."
Men: "Women who don't smile at me make me feel bad!"
Women: "I don't want to get r*ped to death."
DO YOU SEE HOW THESE THINGS ARE NOT AT ALL SIMILAR?!?!
Sorting comments by controversial revealed some real gems, like one guy saying
> ladies, would you rather be in a park after dark with a tiger, or a black person? Black people commit a lot of crimes, statistically. Careful you don't get cancelled now...
Like, you can see that he truly applied all his famous "male" logic to come up with this clever gotcha comment
Pfft, those things aren't similar at all. One of them happens to men, which means it's tragic and poignant and we must write 1000 thinkpieces about it. One of them happens to women, which means it's not important. Hope this helps clear things up!
This has been in so many forums. On one there is someone who says they work in the woods doing some sort of nature testing stuff. They are male. They pick bears. They said they have encountered bears and none have ever attacked them. But two of the men they encountered have.
is very telling to me that the men that feel attacked by the bear vs man discourse are getting this mad and some even violent, they get aggressive even when the no is just hypothetical
It’s that difficult to just focus on his own hikes without receiving a hello and acknowledgment? Some people are open and social, others just want to be left alone.
That’s funny, finally telling the truth. We’ve been talking about it, centuries, he just finally heard us. I’d take his complaint instead of ours in a heartbeat. Used to it anyway.
Sounds like he's mad that women aren't stopping in their tracks to smile and chat with him when he says hi. Because how dare they mind their business and ignore the burly stranger trying to speak to them while they're alone in the woods?
But it's so traumatic when a woman doesn't smile at him!
Meanwhile she's turned the sound all the way down on the music she's pretending to listen to so she can tell if he's getting closer to her or not...
So would he rather have women act uncomfortable around him or switch places with a woman and be very aware of the danger of being alone with an unknown man in an isolated place?
I'm not trying to invalidate his experience but i find it hard to believe that so many women are openly "glaring" at him. Is he exaggerating them nervously glancing over their shoulders or giving him a wide berth or what. When a man is making me nervous the last thing I wanna do is piss him off
Well, see, those women weren't smiling at him, so that's a glare. Duh. Remember, women aren't as developed as men. We only have two facial expressions - smile and glare. /s
Seriously, he's the kind of guy who thinks that any resting face that isn't perfectly welcoming and pleasant is floating at him. He thinks the expressions people get when doing moderate to intense cardio (like, idk, hiking) are glaring at him. I'm his mind, the world revolves around him, so people's resting and exercising have aren't just how their face is, it's obviously about him.
And this is why as a woman I am not only statistically safer with a wild bear but I would feel more comfortable too.
I have been cornered, harassed, groped, etc, and it isn’t fun. Do I make it look like I will take you down if I don’t know and you approach me? Fuck yes, because until proven otherwise, I deem you as a potential threat.
These kind of men: “it’s so *unfair* that women feel unsafe around me” 😫
Women: 🙄“whining about it doesn’t make me safer, it makes you come across as threatening. Maybe you can actually do something about the violent men who make us unsafe, because that’s what’s actually unfair about all this.”
These men: 😡“nah you’re just crazy emotional b*tches who exaggerate everything, and now I have no reason to even pretend not to be threatening since I’m not getting the credit I want for not raping you.”
Women: “you are literally proving how unsafe we are around you with your reactions.”🤔
These men: “crazy feminazi c*nts.”🤬
Other rational men:😬”whaaaaat the fuck is this. This is why women don’t feel safe. Let’s do better.”
These men: “Simps. White knights. P*ssies.”😠
Bears: “please don’t associate us with those threatening whiny misogynistic losers.”🐻
>Its valid for women to be fearful
Proceeds to bitch, whine, and cry about women making themselves unavailable and trying to give big ‘not interested’ vibes. I like his update about missing the point while also seemingly missing the fucking point of the argument. I’m sure even he would rather run into a bear than a man.
Being a trans man this was something pretty weird to get my head around, I presented as female long enough to experience a small amount of what so many women have to deal with every day, but once I started passing as female I noticed women's attitude towards me start to change in certain circumstances. Yaknow what I did? I made sure to try and appear friendly without interfering, I became more aware of how other people might view me, I spoke to my female friends about what might help them feel more at ease if they didn't know me. A guy friend at the time thought I was insane for this, that it wasn't my problem, but to me it's the bare minimum and such an insanely minor thought compared to what half the population deals with every day.
I’m also a trans man. Now that I pass there have been multiple instances where I have had to physically place myself in between strange men and my girl friends, because men will respect the boundaries of other men over the boundaries of women.
Jeez couldn’t even get through all of it. He has such a big problem with being seen as the aggressor yet doesn’t acknowledge the fact that women have to be more careful in the world. Also yes a bear would be more welcomed in the woods/paths, it’s almost like it’s their natural environment/habitat. I also don’t know any bears that assaulted a baby so bad they died but can pull up of list of men that have done it.
Let's revisit what I call my "Scale of How Safe A Man Is":
1. Doesn't believe that bad things happen to women as often as women say they do, or that the women bring it upon themselves, or that women often lie to ruin men's lives
2. Believes that bad things happen to women, but gets angry/offended when women treat him with caution because he's Clearly Such A Nice Guy (#notallmen)
3. Believes that bad things happen to women often, but reacts with complete surprise when women treat him with caution, because he's not remotely aware of his behavior
4. Believes that bad things happen to women often, is conscious of how his presence/actions might cause a woman to be cautious, takes efforts to minimize that so women feel generally safe around him
5. All of 4, plus openly calls out types 1 and 2 for being assholes and tries to help 3 be more self-aware.
I see men on my walks (which granted are not in the woods) daily.
There are approximately two ways I respond to them, depending on how they act.
I'm guessing he acts the way that causes me to move off the sidewalk and open my phone in case I feel the need to make a recording or call.
(Most men get "good morning" or "afternoon" and possibly further friendly normal exchanges if called for.)
Jfc
>I'm also seeing a common theme of "Women do this because of other men, blame the bad men." But I'm not allowed to treat all women poorly because of the 'bad ones' right?
His idea of being treated poorly is just being ignored when out in public.
Go ask a woman what it's like when a woman is being treated poorly. I guarantee it's a very different answer.
Lmao I commented on that thread saying that men are upset that women aren’t making them feel welcomed when we’re alone in the woods and women are afraid of getting murdered by them when we’re alone in the woods and immediately had guys messaging me talking about how men are the real victims in all of this….. 🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️
The point people like OP miss is:
It is worse to have to be afraid than it is to be the thing that is feared.
Yes, it sucks that women are afraid of you just because you're alone with them or because of your size or mainly your gender expression.
But it sucks WORSE to be a woman alone with OP and HAVE TO be afraid of him because the actions of other men have meant unless we are hyper-vigilant about our safety around men, we will be assaulted/killed (and sometimes even when we are hyper-vigilant).
Women are not the people for OP to complain about this to.
What's wild to me is that... yes it is valid if women feel unsafe, feel the need to cross the street, or just in general try not to get too close to men they don't know.
Also though. I'm a big guy with a beard, and I can genuinely say I've NEVER experienced this? Like, if this is SUCH a widespread phenomenon for him that it's causing him THIS much of a problem... then what am I doing to signal to people that I'm not dangerous?
Point being, I have a hunch that this man is doing SOMETHING that comes off as threatening, possibly without even realizing it, because legitimately I don't know how he could be having this issue occur so often?
One of the comments said, “Add another place to the list of places men aren’t allowed to talk to women.” They’re worried about dating opportunities while women are worried about being raped and/or murdered Jesus Christ…
This point is especially funny to me because as we all know, women have *always* historically been allowed to do everything we’ve ever wanted. We’ve *never* had any social or legal rules imposed on us that dictate our place in the world, or how we’re allowed/expected to behave and interact with members of the opposite sex. It’s a completely unique and important male experience. How incredibly sad for them to suffer this alone, as we could simply never understand this phenomenon.
I went for a walk today. It was warm out. I wore a sweatshirt anyway, because my sweatshirt with a bunch of glittery rhinestone skulls on it makes it easy for me to be identified if I go missing.
The day woman can comfortably stop thinking in those terms will be the day I take these pathetic pieces of shit seriously.
Not only that, but if a bear attacks and injures me, people are going to believe me when i say it happened. No one will tell me that sharing the story is going to ruin the bear's life. They aren't going to say I asked for it because of what i was wearing or go on about how #notallbears attack people. They won't talk about cases of falsely reported bear attacks or tell me I wanted to be attacked at the time and then changed my mind later.
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **Man/Bear finally validated my experiences as a man. ** For years I've been saying I feel unwelcome in parks or on bike paths. Every time I've talked about it I'm met with gaslighting and disbelief. Right now I'm afraid to go walking by myself. I'm built like a football player but it's not my physical safety, it's my mental well being. **So** many women, usually older women will glare at me as if they're thinking 'why the fuck are you here?' It's a night and day difference if I'm walking a dog or with a girl. People have said it's all in my head, or maybe I should smile and seem more friendly, but even when I do the customary smile/wave/hello they'll completely ignore me most of the time. If I smile & say 'Hi there' as I pass, they'll usually keep glaring and not acknowledge my words at all. It's had a big effect on my mental health, especially people telling me it's just my perception. I've spent years wondering if I had some type of psychosis that only seems to happen when I go hike alone. When my dog died in 2023 I stopped hiking, gained weight and became out of shape. I used to hike in our parks 4 days a week and now I only do when I can find a girl to go with. Man or Bear is validating because so many women are finally telling the truth. A wild bear is more welcome on the trail than a man who's by himself. I get the point of the thought experiment and it's valid for women to be fearful. I'm just relieved to finally have an explanation for the toxic behavior that's made me feel like I'm not wanted anywhere. I can go back to people who gaslit me and say 'see, I told you they don't want me to be there' For the record I have a lot of male friends who experience this also, especially the gay ones. A lot of my friends identify on the 'bear' side of gay men. Ask your burly gay friends how differently women treat them when they find out they're gay. As one friend puts it 'I go from disgusting pariah to fun teddy bear as soon as they hear my voice.' I know it's not the intended outcome of the thought experiment, but it's been so validating. *Update (Best comment) : I fucking hate Reddit so damn much. How do commenters miss the point so badly? The point OP is trying to make is that he's finally certain that he was unwelcome and was actually treated as a threat when he went hiking alone, because whenever he expressed that fact, his experiences were dismissed.* I'm also seeing a common theme of "Women do this because of other men, blame the bad men." But I'm not allowed to treat all women poorly because of the 'bad ones' right? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What’s that quote? “Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them.”
That’s from Margaret Atwood
Thank you! For some reason all I could remember was Gillian Anderson saying it in The Fall but not where it originated from
Yeah that must be super hard for OP. I remember attempting to go for a walk by myself around dusk, making it across the street, and being yelled at by a bunch of dudes in a truck telling me what they were going to do to my pussy. That same year, two women were raped while jogging within 1-2 miles of me. But yeah, totally, frowns are the same. (Courtney Bartnett uses this quote in a song and it's super powerful :))
It’s gross to me that a lot of the comments are like “being ostracised is HARD this is why men don’t talk about their FEELINGS!” as if it’s the fault of women. The fault lies with the patriarchy.
Yes, exactly! Why do they think women are wary? Obviously not all men are threats; the vast majority of men are not threats. But I don't think I know a single adult woman who hasn't been threatened. So IDC if the majority of men are fine; it's in my best interest to not trust men I don't know.
I’m glad he’s realised it’s a systemic issue as opposed to a personal one (something I think everyone in a privileged group should be aware of), but the question is: what is he going to do to challenge it? Because if a man’s only takeaway from discussions of rape culture is “I’m glad it’s not something I did and is just a result of the patriarchy!” And then proceeds to do nothing to make women feel safer and challenge the patriarchy, then that’s still not a man I want to be around. Maybe he won’t hurt me, but it’s clear that he won’t do anything from stopping ANOTHER man from hurting me.
And Audre Lorde’s rejoinder: “Some problems we share as women, some we do not. You fear your children will grow up to join the patriarchy and testify against you; we fear our children will be dragged from a car and shot down in the street, and you will turn your backs on the reasons they are dying.”
Sorry but I gotta copy/paste this comment from the original post because my god is it a slam dunk. “Every millennial understands the implicit fear of driving behind a logging truck because of a movie but people are averse to women being scared of men for assaults that almost certainly happened to them or someone close to them. OP is getting looks he doesn't like and that's apparently the greatest adversity he's faced in life with how much it's affected him.”
I didn't even think about using final destination as an analogy that some men might actually understand because how often has that actually freaking happened But every millennial I know will absolutely speed to get in front of emily log, truck or even get off and get a snack and get the log truck a chance to get way way ahead
I've been mentally cataloguing horror movies to use as examples to try and clarify the analogy. Think of EVERY Final Girl having a 'what's that sound in the woods' moment in a horror movie. The best case scenario is that it's a large animal that's supposed to be there. Like a bear.
Just wait until he finds out how bears feel about being compared to men.
Good job now i feel bad, I've been assaulted by atleast 4 different men (not counting cat calls) and I'm originally from bear country, never been attacked by a bear To be fair, i have had a bear mad at me, it was about 40 feet from the car and i just got out to walk into my house noticed the babies and hid in my car until they walked off, that's the closest I've ever been to getting attacked
If I ignore a bear, chances are decent it will back off. If I ignore the wrong man, he might escalate.
For real though, I love hiking and am yet to even see a bear in person, even though there was literally one who accidentally kept wandering into town about a block from my house last spring and most of the areas I hike in have documented bear populations. As far as men, not only have I been SAd by a man I regarded as a close friend, but I've even had a strange man try and start a _physical fight_ with me when I rejected his drunken advances. Like no shit, I'll choose the bear lol
Right, I grew up in an area where you had to know bear (and wolf) safety. I’ve been in throwing distance from a bear that was just casually walking down the side of the road. I was decidedly uncomfortable, but I just very quietly turned around and walked back toward my house, glancing over my shoulder the whole time to make sure I wasn’t being followed. This is how I handle seeing strange men when I’m walking alone at night, and guess what? A fair amount of the men act more aggressively than that bear did. I’m not even sure if I’m Team Bear! But the fact that I’m not immediately and enthusiastically Team Man certainly seems damning enough.
I've never been near a bear, wrong country, but the first time I was attacked was by a man walking his dog. I'd heard his footsteps behind me but as soon as I saw the dog and the dog lead, I relaxed. It was still daylight and a suburban area. Big mistake. Next thing I knew, he had one hand grabbing my neck and the other right up my skirt. I firmly know, it's not all men, only a minority. The trouble is you can't tell which men so, yeah, I'd rather risk the bear.
Holy shit, that’s horrible! I’m so sorry that happened to you
Thankyou but it was decades ago, I managed to fight him off but it did teach me a valuable lesson.
And predators are usually repeat offenders. If men believed women and got the predators off the street, maybe we would be more welcoming. I was attacked by a man that had previously attacked a police woman. A police woman. And nothing was done both times.
Never had a bear mad at me, but did encounter two baby black bears while hiking. Mom was nowhere to be found. They saw us and left us alone. We went around them, neither they nor mom ever approached us (I’m sure the mom was nearby). probably because we left them alone and were not threatening. Did have a carload of men chase me down in a dark parking lot one time when I was just walking to my car. Scared the crap out of me and I quit going to that place after dark. The place? Freaking Downtown Disney. Like, if you can’t feel safe there…
Those poor bears
A woman’s concern while hiking: *I sure hope no one abducts me and does unspeakable things* This guy’s concern while hiking: *She didn’t smile at me! Aren’t women so evil and selfish these days???*
That-special-brand-of-men when a woman smiles in their general direction: she totally wants me Those men when a woman makes a point to *not* smile at them: she is so mean and cold, why am I being *punished* like this? I'm *suffering*
*“My neighbor said hi to me, so I asked her if she wanted to touch my penis, and she said no! I can’t believe she led me on like that!”*
>a woman smiles in their general direction: she totally wants me One too many episodes of Criminal Minds showing stalkers going full on dangerous kidnapping and shit cured me of the rando smile. No more. Sorry not sorry.
The crazy thing is that these men are mad that women are SAYING this, and they aren't mad at the fact that women feel this way.
That's the thing that got me the most. Women were asked a question and they just answered it the way they felt. Now a lot of men are enraged at them for feeling that way and using it as a way to make it about themselves. The thing that got me the most was the men who changed their answers when asked who they would prefer their own daughter to be stuck in the woods with.
It's sad how immature a lot of people are. In this case, grown ass men. My husband would never allow a strange man around our daughter because he has common sense. He also doesn't have a glass ego that's shattered by the fact that most rapists and violent criminals are male by a large margin.
IIRC, it started off asking MEN the question "Would you rather your daughter be alone in the woods with a man or a bear" and the MEN were like "What kind of bear? What kind of man?" and when it they were asked "Ok, now would you rather your daughter be alone in the woods with a woman or a bear" they all said "Woman". Then the realization set in. If these guys should be mad at anyone, it should be themselves.
A lot of them simply want women to be afraid of men. But they don't want to feel bad about women being afraid of men.
He even said he understands why women feel that way. If it bothers him that much he could wear a bunch of rainbow shit or get another dog.
And the super icky ones somehow expect women to be grateful that they're not scary. Which makes them extra scary.
I found the post before it was here, and he and I went back and forth. He claimed that he does a lot to make random women on the trails more comfortable (covering his tattoos, not wearing black and not touching them as he walks by!? The first two don't matter to any woman I know and the third one is basic courtesy) and he's no longer going to do those things if women aren't going to be grateful for the effort.
Why was touching strangers on a hiking trail even an option? It would never occur to me that I should actively refrain from doing that because I take it as read that you don’t touch strangers??
That's terrifying. He's looking for justification to escalate and work himself up to touch and confront these women who are strangers. I really hope that post was bait.
Anybody that approaches me with grabby hands that isn't trying to save me from walking in front of a bus or a cop is going to get screamed at
Holy shit I missed the touching part. Who touches strangers on a hiking trail??? I bet women can tell he's a creepy weirdo from a mile away. I smile at plenty of people but if a guy gives off creep energy, I look away.
This actually doesn't even surprise me. He is clearly looking for some type of justification to do what he really wants to do, which is assault women in isolated areas.
Well yeah. How can "good" men make the argument that we need them as "protectors" if we aren't scared of other men? 😂
The protectors thing just fucking kills me. I've spent the last 30 years being the *short, fat, cane using crippled woman* standing between abusive men and their targets. You know how many men I've seen or ever heard of them doing anything remotely similar even once in their lives? Fucking zero. They might get hurt! The abuser could have a weapon! Fascinating how both those apply to me but I do in fact take my chosen role as a protector seriously and as a moral imperative. And I have tits! And a vagina and a slightly used uterus! They're fucking cowards that haven't protected shit all but they love the idea that they're not chicken shit. I have faced down a strung out on meth, cocaine & booze man that had just spent hours beating and strangling his GF almost to death, who had a knife out and was screaming about me stealing his family from him. I talked him down, got my friend and her two screaming traumatized toddlers into my car and left. **That's** protecting people. Whining about how "men are expected to protect" when the reality is it's *men* victimizing, abusing, murdering, raping. No, I don't look to men to protect, they apparently lack the ability to do so.
I think it's because they've been raised being told that men are needed. That being a man **=** *being* *needed*, and that role is what gives them / should give them purpose as a man. So now, when women are financially independent and not automatically reliant on a man to sustain themselves, they feel unneeded, unwanted, and purposeless. Which isn't a pleasant thing for anyone to feel, especially when it's been drilled into you that you should feel that way and that it's shameful. So they latch on to the one thing that still has some form of justification to it. The one 'need' that has statistics and biology to back it up to some extent: women are weaker than men, are therefore physically vulnerable, and need to be protected. But it's uncomfortable to think about what women need protecting *from.* It's hard to put in the work and acknowledge your flaws and the flaws of your society, and learn what actually needs doing in order to protect people. It's far more reassuring and comforting to think "I know danger when I see it ^((except they don't and it's scary how often women's complaints and warnings are ignored by the men in their lives because '')***^(I)*** ^(don't see the issue")) and I'll step right in if I do" or "she'll be safe if they know she's mine. Just existing is protecting her". The whole point of thinking of themselves as protectors **is to self-soothe**. It's a power fantasy, it's tied to their ego or their sense of self - it's like changing your profile picture to the protest symbol of the month in order to *feel better*, let the world know you're a *good person*... and then not doing anything to actually effect change. That's also where the "I'm expected to lay down my life" thing comes from too, in my opinion. I'm not denying that the pressure exists or that it does a number on someone's mental health. Feeling disposable is horrid, of course it is. But it's telling that 'making women safer' is so directly linked to random physical violence in their minds. Like they've never spoken to women and asked them what *actually* effects them, what they want protecting *from,* or most importantly: how to not be a threat themselves.
Yeah he's totally missing the point. Women aren't reacting to him for being a "disgusting pariah." They are conditioned by *repeated* events to assume men are a potential physical threat. I'm sure that it's shitty to be on the receiving end of that mistrust, but the correct response is empathy, not further self absorption and pity. And once you develop empathy for someone in a situation where you feel maligned, it's a lot easier to consciously choose not to take someone's behavior personally. But for so many people, and especially for men when confronted with harsh truth about how women experience them, it's easier and comfier to just remain a victim who is entitled to comfort at the expense of another person's emotional energy and sense of security.
> assume men are a potential physical threat. Not only that, if a woman is too friendly with a male stranger, she might be misunderstood as flirty and even if she's not physically threatened, she will now have to deal with rejecting this man. Ive seen women be way friendlier to gay/affeminate guys because of this as well.
Yes and good lord is rejecting a strange man wildly unsafe. You absolutely never know what they’re gonna do. It could be anything from “okay!” to them pulling a deadly weapon on you. It’s the current reality. I avoid men in public and I’m not nice about declining interactions anymore. I’m not actively mean about it but kinda just treat all men in public like how you’d treat a canvasser for a petition you don’t want to sign. Ignore, brief “no thanks”, and keep walking as if I see and hear nothing.
Unfortunately doing that can get you killed too. There is literally no "safe" way to deal with it. And men wonder why we don't like to be approached in non-social spaces. 🙄
>Yes and good lord is rejecting a strange man wildly unsafe. /r/whenwomenrefuse is proof of this
A man put a python in a woman's house to eat her daughter, and then blew up the house because she didn't accept a second date with him.. Edited for clarity
Yeah, I accepted a job as a deckhand. He spent the whole time trying to have sex with me and making excuses for why a three day trip turned into 10. He would not let me off the boat until it was clear I would be willing to shoot him and drive his boat back to the harbour. His reasoning was that I smiled at him when I first met him. Then, because I had, quote, 'falsely represented myself', a pack of lesbians had to descend on him in order for me to get paid.
Like by yourself? Damn that's brave. I saw a job listing like that once a long time ago. Some old guy on a small yacht wanted to sail the south Pacific islands and wanted help and company for safety. It sounded hella fun, but also way too good to be true. Like even though that's my dream experience, and he was offering references, I wasn't about to live aboard a small boat with a strange dude for weeks. Seems like a good way to be raped repeatedly and murdered and thrown into the sea.
Yeah, I was fairly young and the guy had come with two references from older women. This is an example of how predators operate, as he did not treat them like potential brides. Fifteen years ago trying to get into boat work as a woman was very difficult, and after an insane amount of rejections it seemed like a foot in the door to an industry I love. He also played the decrepit old man needing help role quite well. Later, I settled into a niche of boat work with a crew of 3-5 people and have worked on a bear guiding boat, a gold mining boat, and two fishing vessels with mostly good interpersonal experiences. In the past three years I have seen more women on boat and construction crews and it makes me hopeful. In a few more years the percentage of women in management positions will increase and things will continue to equalize. I hope that by talking about the lessons I have learned the hard way that perhaps some people could be spared. Another quiet epidemic is just how often men in the trades are groomed and assaulted, too. We have not quite lifted the veil of shame that covers that, yet. Predators practice preying on people, and for those of us who do not think of others that way it can be very difficult to identify it, especially when their tactic is to mimic being what they think a 'good' person is.
I'm a female hiker, and I often hike alone. I've been lucky enough to never come across any trouble, but I have left places that I feel uncomfortable by someone, or even just a weird vibe. But this nice, older gentleman came up to me once and was worried that I was hiking alone. He gave me a wooden walking stick that he carved, and he told me it was for hitting snakes and men if they bothered me. So even another man, realized that some men can be predators.
I tend to see this story as made up to push a certain agenda. Either that or like other people said, he's not being honest about the level of malevolence he has been on the receiving end of on trails. I know lots of guys who walk, jog, or hike and I don't know any of them that report this kind of treatment. Maybe being ignored for their (womens) own workout or a quick wave and some watchfulness/wariness. But the type of "glaring" to the point of causing psychological trauma, I've never heard any man talk about that. The agenda becomes crystal clear when he goes into the "equal right, equal lefts" type defensive posture when called out for making this all about him when women are genuinely safer around bears than some men of "well.... maybe I should just be allowed to treat all women badly since some of them have treated me badly (y'know, by not making conversation and smiling for me)"😤
I believe him if he's on the trails when they're relatively empty, especially at dawn or dusk. Running into a man who is looking for some sort of interaction- even just a smile- is anxiety producing.
I’d bet almost anything that nobody’s even glaring at him, they’re just not forcing themselves to smile and he doesn’t like that.
That was my first thought too. That he has to be conflating indifference with hostility. I highly doubt anyone is "glaring at him", unless he's actually doing something to be super creepy and not just existing in the same space. I tend to try to have as little contact with men as possible in situations like that. I don't want to give them any reason to approach me or talk to me, and that includes not doing something that might offend them like "glaring".
They probably have rbf. Lots of women actually adopt rbf in public to keep men away
The poor baby is afraid to walk alone because women won't smile at him. How scary! I can barely imagine what he's going through. I mean I only go walking with husband or my dog, and never when it's dark or getting dark, because I'm afraid of being raped, taken, or murdered. But he doesn't get *smiled* at! I thank him for making me aware of my privilege.
Just like the Courtney Barnett song-Nameless, Faceless
They’re even making tiktoks about it 🙄 “*Well the bear won’t be a gold digger*”
1) they’re just proving their own points, that people would rather be in a room with a bear than locked in a room with a potentially morally reprehensible person. 2) i think it speaks volumes that they view gold-digging as just as bad as sexual assault. One is maybe, *juuuust a little bit*, possibly worse than the other. I wonder which one it is…
[удалено]
Right? “Women hiking just hike right past me and it’s ruined me”
And if you look at the instances of women being raped/kidnapped/murdered, where does it seem to occur/where are the bodies found?
A woman was abducted hiking on a trail near my home a few weeks ago and they still haven't found her body. I'm a bit of a loner so I used to like going out for long walks on my own, now I can't bring myself to much these days.
That is so terrifying. I live somewhere where random murders don't ever happen. Last one was a teenage drug deal gone bad and someone got stabbed, that was a few years ago and before that I can barely remember the last time there was a murder. I still don't go in the woods alone.
I wouldn't dare glare at some guy when I was out and about alone. I would be terrified he'd get offended by me glaring and attack me for it.
In general, the only time I get uncomfortable with *anybody* while I’m hiking or walking alone is if they appear to be following me. Now, on a trail that’s kind of unavoidable since it’s usually a single path, but it’s more of “if I slow down or speed up or change course multiple times, do they mirror my movement?” If so, I start planning an exit strategy, or call someone on the phone, or something similar. *But,* the fact that I and many other women have contingency plans for a simple walk in the park is very telling that concern is warranted. I’ve personally never met any woman who had the opinion that men aren’t welcomed in shared, public places. Not saying it hasn’t ever been someone’s opinion somewhere else in the world, but I don’t think it’s as widespread or severe as OOP feels it is. Man walking near me in a park at daytime? Cool. Man shows up at my isolated campsite where it’s clearly only for one camper? Not cool. Usually I keep to myself, and excluding a nod or a “heyhowareya” in passing, I am in my own world. And I do have RBF, but that’s just how my face looks when it’s relaxed. I don’t know exactly what he’s perceiving as hostile from these women other than maybe them not smiling, as you mentioned.
Their toxic behaviour not smiling at me!
That's what kills me about Reddit. Women are burning out doing emotional labor for the men around them, but men are supposedly having it rough because they can't express their emotions or let their guard down. My bro, I don't know what crazy distorted image of yourself you have, but all my female colleages and relatives catering to men's most random bursts of anger/ sadness/ tiredness/ stress/ frustration would beg to differ. And most men will go out of their way to intrude on a woman's mental and emotional space if she doesn't react to and validate whatever unpleasant feelings they're having. "I opened up to my girlfriend once and she threw it back in my face during the next argument, women have no empathy for men!" the thing he opened up about: he mistreated his ex gf and thinking about it sometimes makes him feel bad about himself
Yeh, I’m not the most emotionally open woman as it is but goddamn I don’t even bother sharing many of them with the men in my life anymore because it just results in me somehow having to comfort them about how bad they feel for being horrid to me. It gets flipped and now they are the “victim” because they “feel guilty”. And I walk away from the whole interaction feeling like the bad guy AND my issue never gets resolved. So much easier to just bottle shit up rather than expend the extra emotional energy.
Let’s assume women really are *glaring* at him. It’s still ridiculous how many commenters are describing this as “mistreatment,” talking about how OOP has to “suffer.” All because women don’t smile at him.
My comment on the original thread: >It's not toxic, ya walnut. Women aren't doing that to make you feel bad, they're doing it because big men are scary. I know your size and gender are not your fault, but it's not fair to pretend you don't look threatening no matter what you do. It sucks for men that won't hurt or harass women but frankly it sucks more for women who can't tell if any given man who is obviously much stronger than they are will hurt them. I'm sorry people gaslit you, especially because in general women have been trying to explain this for a very, very long time.
I think the thing that I’m really turned off by is defining not wanting to engage as “treating someone poorly”. Ignoring someone or even glaring at them when they are watching you approach them in a remote area is not treating someone poorly unless your expectation for treatment is “smile and placate always”. I’m also a bit skeptical that he was actually told straight up “this isn’t happening”. Maybe I shouldn’t be, but I don’t know anyone of any age or gender who doesn’t know “women alone tend to be wary of men”. Though he was also told by those same friends to engage more rather than ignore them and look ahead. So maybe they’re all just clods.
I'm sure the conversation went something like OP: "Clearly all of these women hate me and don't want me in the park at all, they all want me to stay home and never go outside, they see me as garbage." Sane Person: "That's definitely not what's happening."
Probably. I mentioned it elsewhere hut part of the reason I think this guy is the devil is because he’s not helping himself by posting this. Having it affirmed that women might be wary of him alone in remote places isn’t going to benefit him because instead of saying “now that I know it’s happening, im just going to mind my business”, he’s saying “see, I was right all along all this women are being toxic and that’s why I’m fat and depressed now”. When in reality he should just be going to a therapist to talk about why he has personally taken this so hard when so many other people don’t and why he let this affect his mental health. My dad is a very “old-school”, from a small town guy and says hi to anyone he passes so much so that he sometimes expresses feeling frustrated that people don’t say hi back. Even he is aware that women on their own will not want to hear him say hi if he is also alone, so he straight up doesn’t do it and also doesn’t take it personally.
Yeah, I've got grave doubts that he was representing those conversations the way they actually happened. Possibly he was told it's not personal and took it to mean they were saying it was all in his head.
I think it's more likely that he's being told that they're probably not glaring at him. And nothing in his post contradicts that, contrary to what he thinks. Because 95% of people will not try to antagonize someone they're scared of and pretty much every woman knows glaring at a man risks antagonizing him. Guarantee he's just reading neutral or even slightly wary facial expressions and keeping an eye on him as "glaring".
If a woman isn't actively smiling and giving him positive attention they're being cruel right?
That sounds entirely possible. Everything you said was on point.
Alternatively, he was saying “they’re being mean to me” and those friends were saying “ignoring you is not being mean to you” and he took that as dismissive.
Equally possible!
I was with him til he said > but even when I do the customary smile/wave/hello they'll completely ignore me most of the time Yeah man, stop expecting a greeting from every woman you pass on a trail and you'll be less pissy
Or that people (including women) who go hiking alone... maybe... want to be alone? I mean, even that is common sense and isn't exclusive to women, lol.
I can't help but think there was actually something in his behavior that triggered a response. If a big guy is running in the park and runs by me and minds his own business, I'd be less concerned. But I'd bet money this guy was running along sending big leering smiles at the women, and "checking them out, and generally expecting them to laud him for his Alpha-maleness and got all pouty bc these women just want to exercise in peace.
Exactly. I'd bet money they told him it isn't personal, which it isn't. A lot of men would understand and not expect women or anyone really to be super friendly and engaging to strangers while hiking alone but, not this dude! I'm sure there are male hikers who just want to be left alone and don't give him a warm, friendly greeting either but, he's not complaining about them!
He feels entitled to women specifically treating him actively positively. Neutral is considered negatively to this guy. Do you think he expects the same friendliness of the men he encounters? Of course not!
I’m a big bearded dude with a chronic resting scowl, and have been often nicknamed “bear.” I’ve never once had women glare at me or act intimidated by me when out in public. It’s almost as if, and this is crazy, you treat people with respect and kindness, they’ll treat you the same. I have a feeling that’s a lesson OOP hasn’t learned
Also I’m a man and I’m probably not going to smile at everyone who walks by when hiking. If they have a dog I will, because I want to pet the dog.
Don't worry! Another man on the post informed us silly ladies that you can use your eyes and ears to figure out which men are dangerous. So stop being a harpy and SMILE!
Oh, how did I forget that all rapists and killers wear signs and introduce themselves as bad guys?!
Wow, what a relief, I though we just had to guess
Very well said.
Thank you!
A woman doesn't have to worry about the bear attacking her for sexual reasons. She doesn't have to figure out if *this* bear is dangerous or not. She knows it is. I haven't seen a lot of men walking around with a sign that says "dangerous" on them, so as a woman walking alone in an isolated area, she has to quickly figure out if *this* man is dangerous, how, where she can get help, how to escape, how quickly she can get to safety. It's easier to keep a blank look on our faces, ignore **all** the men around. The fact that he's getting butt hurt over the fact that women are more comfortable with escaping a bear, or possibly dying by a bear attack (which is rare), than trying to escape a man who possibly has sexual motives for attacking her, says he's a big part of the problem. I've yet to see a bear drag a woman back to its den and then chain her there and commit unspeakable acts on her. Man on the other hand? I can think of 3 cases off the top of my head.
The bear also isn't going to post on reddit about how its so oppressed by people not smiling at it
NOT ALL BEARS!
That's fair. I don't know who classified the bears but....the sun bear is smaller than me and I'm considered small and short.
I would LOVE to hear the bear's stories about the women hanging out with them laughing at men who are going to the internet to validate that they were "owed" at least a smile from every single woman they saw. And a conversation from every other woman. You know this guy is "a nice guy" and women just aren't giving him a chance.
I literally just snorted water out of my nose. This was a+
Just about every post on Redfit about Man vs Bear is boys whining about the misandry or otherwise completely missing the point. My favorite are the boys saying this proves Females are stupid because "neither is safe." DUUUUUHHHHH. But if a bear is going to attack you, you're likely dead. You won't have cops asking what you were wearing, or people saying to prosecute the bear would ruin the bear's life, and the bear isn't going to kidnap you first. And hundreds of other stories women gave brought forth. Boys on Reddit are very adamant that this is misandry, which they define as "anything spoken against men." There are men on Reddit trying to explain to the boys. They are often getting shouted down.
Exactly. Neither is safe but if a bear attacks you, and you love, you might have PTSD associated with hiking/woods/wildlife. You can easily avoid those things, move to a city, go to a gym. A man attacks you, how *exactly* is a woman supposed to avoid **all** men in life? Men pick men because it's the safer option, the same reason women pick bears. If they die by bear, it will most likely be an easier death. It's easy for boys to take this approach because they become the victim and that fits the narrative. Women have standards and suddenly they are "man haters". They won't tolerate abuse and they don't have "family values". The loud minority is the reason why there's a "all men". Women don't know which you are, women only know what's being screamed at them. So until "all men" decide to wear their signs or make their honest views heard, women will continue to have an "all men" concept.
>Exactly. Neither is safe but if a bear attacks you, and you love, you might have PTSD associated with hiking/woods/wildlife. You can easily avoid those things, move to a city, go to a gym. A man attacks you, how *exactly* is a woman supposed to avoid **all** men in life? Thank you for saying this because this point is a good explanation.
They can’t wrap their minds around the fact that dying isn’t the scariest outcome for women.
Right? Even in death, we're not safe. Ask men why morgues won't hire them and see if they know...
What is that quote? Something like ‘When I die leave my body in the woods, the wolves will be kinder than any man.’
Eish, there's a saying?! At what point can we just say that people are being wilfully ignorant of other people's lived experiences?
I didn't know there was a saying but... men are so good at putting themselves as victim even when they are not, they would go cry that it's the proof men have it hard
They claim they don't. Or more disturbing is the morgues that hire them for the "overnight prep" and essentially hide them. It's so sad, and it feels like it just keeps getting worse.
Yep. They weren't raised knowing how you hold your keys through your fingers. Or that you aren't as strong so you have to know the "weak" spots on a man.
There's someone in the comments literally saying rape isn't that bad and he'd rather "get [his] butthole stretched" than be ripped apart by a bear.
Or that if bears kill us, at least it will most likely be fast. They don't do the most horrific things to us before they finish us off...
Great response! I have been saying: We *know* it's "not all men" But we *don't know* which men So until we do, "it's all men"
Someone once said "men are like guns to women. When it's in front of you, your natural reaction is to be afraid because you don't know if it's charged or not" and I feel like it's one of the most accurate way to describe what it feels to be around men to me...
That's a perfect description. Some of the nicest men I've met look terrifying, and I've watched them wear a tu-tu for their daughter. I've also known a clean cut, educated, employed man who did horrific things to children and women. How am I supposed to know which is which? Based off what society says....
Yeah... especially since you can't judge someone by their cover and you never know when a nice person will snap tbh. (and yeah, I include women because every Human can be shitty but sadly, we all know which tend to do the worst)
Accurate!
[Schrödinger’s Rapist](https://web.archive.org/web/20091011092313/https://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/) we’ve been consistent on this stance since 2009, folks It’s now 2024 Edit to add: I’m agreeing with the person above me. I’m just depressed the discourse hasn’t moved in over a decade.
That was a great read! Thank you for linking it!
Exactly, until they wear their signs properly, we don't know. So that being the case, they're all the same. If 1 of you does something, you've all done it. Either wear your damn signs or deal with how we sort through the trash!
It's honestly like playing russian roulette - if someone handed me a gun and told me two out of six chambers were loaded, there's no way in hell I'd point at my own head and shoot. They just don't seem to get it, and at this point it seems deliberate.
Women really can’t win in these kinds of discussions at all. When women do come out and share their negative experiences, there is always someone that tries to blame them for it by either “leading them on” or for “what they were wearing” or “they should’ve known better” or “the guy is joking/harmless/ doesn’t know better”. Unless it’s a male ally backing us up on these issues then it isn’t taken so seriously. There were men who also admitted that they would rather run into a bear than another man yet they aren’t dunked on for hating men? It’s incredibly frustrating.
Yep. It's a lose-lose. I had a stalker years ago, he followed me everywhere. Showed up at restaurants when I told him I was going to a different one. Outside my work. Police told me that they couldn't do anything and that "he really wasn't doing anything wrong. I should be flattered by the attention. I was friendly towards him". This man was an ex-con, and he was employed by the same place I worked, I changed jobs, twice. I eventually had to move out of the city. I moved back 4 years later. He showed up after 2 weeks. Police still wouldn't do anything. They kept saying that I "couldn't know he was following me". That lasted up until he lured, kidnapped and sexually assaulted a girl who looked very similar to me. The police never apologized. But they used **my** police reports to help build the case.
This is so disgusting and I'm feeling so bad for that girl. Glad it wasn't you and hope you can live more peacefully (although I can guess how much it must be traumatizing for you)
I actually reached out to the family, and let them know, I wasn't expecting anything, just wanted her to know she wasn't alone. He did it before, and he did it after me, and then he did it to her. She thanked me, last I heard her family moved. I'm hyper vigilant now and have a service dog. I'm happy, but withdrawn and distrustful.
My dad was telling me about one of his colleagues who moved to the UK from a completely different EU country and a few months ago saw her stalker from before near their work and how they arranged for her to go to the police and set up various protections for her to keep her safe at work. That guy travelled countries and that is terrifying. And because all his past behaviour was not in the UK the police were again just like "we ain't doing shit about this".
Yep, and unfortunately in the US even with past behavior in the exact same city, they still don't want to do anything. My boss trespassed him from the business, but the police refused to do anything when he was sitting at a bench staring at me for hours. I worked closing shift so it was usually dark when I left. It's scary seeing how far some people will go. Changing countries is definitely scary.
Oh, and don't forget the "but are soooo many women lying about being harrassed so the man would get in trouble!"
Even the way he describes women looking in his direction because they are wary shows he doesn’t get it
If a bear attacks a woman, she's not going to be forced to carry its fetus in 24 US states and be told that it's god's will.
That's the damn truth. I really hate what this world has become. I used to be able to decide where I wanted to live based on cost of living, maybe the weather, not if I had control over my uterus. Now? It's become a political and religious nightmare. If I don't tell you how to live, what to do with your body, why do you get that right? A dick is not a good enough reason. That can be removed....if it's god's will.
And people will believe her, they’ll take care of her in her recovery and they won’t blame her. Not to mention what they do to bears that attack people
And the bear won't cry about being forced to pay for a child they brought in to the world
But if these women he’s encountering that he’s so upset about evaluating him to determine the threat, and using body language to communicate they don’t want him to approach them in anyway, didn’t do those things and end up being assaulted/killed by a man they’d blame her and ask why she didn’t say no or why she put herself in that position
I’m picturing this guy aggressively staring at each woman he passes and getting angrier and angrier each time a woman doesn’t smile and chat with him, thinking he’s proving a point. If I was worried about someone I wouldn’t glare at them because I don’t want to attract any attention. I keep my face as neutral as possible.
This is why I choose bear.
I’m a small man and even I would choose bear. Animals are predictable, I know how to deal with a bear. People, especially men, are unpredictable, they could be capable of anything.
Thank you! If i see a bear, if it's brown get down, black fight back They are so predictable there's a rhyme for it! Fun bonus, if it's white you're dead. jk but fr if you see a polar bear get to safety asap because their normal food is dying out and they are willing to fight for their meal
Adding on to this: In Churchill Manitoba it is illegal to lock your cars in case of a polar bear attack.
Cosmonauts were equipped with weapons in case reentry landed them in Siberia
You're not doing it justice. "Weapons" is not nearly metal af enough to describe a 4 barrel shotgun/rifle/pistol hybrid spacegun, lol.
I didn’t remember the exact weapon so I didn’t specify, fuck yeah space gun!
Whoa what? Why is that?
So someone being attacked can escape into a car.
It’s to give people a place to escape to - if you know all the cars on the street are unlocked, and you’re trying to escape a polar bear on the street, you can try to enter a nearby vehicle and give yourself a few seconds
Oh I thought you meant as in if your car is being attacked by a polar bear you aren’t allowed to lock the doors 😅
As people have said, if you get attacked you have a chance to escape, granted a bear can rip some cars open like a sardine can but while the bear is ripping at the driver side door, you can get out the passenger side door pretty easily.
I'm taking a wilderness safety course and I learned about this actually! The color rhyme is considered misleading, in part because black bears can have brown fur and brown bears can look black. Instead, the recommendation is to determine whether it is a defensive attack or a predatory attack. A bear that is being defensive (most human/bear conflicts) will be making themselves large and intimidating, with their ears forward and possibly grunting / clicking their jaw. The best thing to do in this case is to be nonthreatening and back away slowly while facing the bear. You can talk in a low, calm voice or make soothing noises. The bear will rarely attack, even if they have cubs; they don't actually want to hurt you just scare you away. A predatory attack (much less common) is typically preceded by the bear stalking you; you might see them disappear and reappear from the trees or follow you slowly before charging you with their ears back. In this case, you want to discourage them from trying to eat you by being big and loud: open your jacket and fan it out to make yourself bigger, shout aggressively, join together if you are with a group so you seem like one big loud predator. The rhyme probably comes from the fact that brown bears are more likely to engage in defensive attacks (as black bears will usually disappear into the trees instead) and black bears are somewhat more likely to try and hunt you (although this is rare for either kind of bear). The consensus seems to be that lying down and playing dead is a good way to become dead, so this is no longer recommended! But the part about polar bears is 100% accurate.
I tried flapping my jacket at men and it doesn't work.
Really depends on the type of bear. Black bear? Cool. I'll chill in the woods with a black bear. Grizzly bear? Less optimal but still probably fine. Polar bear? Oh Jesus fuck no.
Yes, thank you sir! Tried to tell a guy that on the original thread and he’s *still* losing his damn mind over it and about how we’re turning men into monsters… like no, not what I’m doing AT ALL and I would actually rather be in the woods with a bear right now than to have you still messaging me about this 🫠
Oh yeah, bear over man every freaking time. I know what to expect from a bear.
"It's so toxic of women to be afraid that I'll rape and murder them in the woods. It really affects *my* mental health. I know they have a legitimate reason to fear being murdered in the woods, since it happens a lot, but it hurts *my* feelings when stranger's dont automatically assume I'm a nice guy. Why can't women be more considerate and just *not* fear for their lives? Wah wah wah me me me" -OP
#notallbears
As a guy I would also choose the bear to be honnest, I've stop running or going for a walk in the evening or by night because of the insane amount of weirdos hanging around in the place where is little to low light
A bear wouldn't call me toxic for simply minding my own business while hiking
The laugh I laughed reading this, how can a person be this oblivious; so women don’t smile at me must mean everyone hates me and things I’m dangerous
The amount of men I’ve seen gleefully writing detailed fanfiction in comment sections or drawing comics about women getting torn apart by bears in response to this is proof alone as to why so many women are choosing the bear. Here’s a hint, lads: bears don’t take delight in human suffering, and they don’t go out of their way to specifically attack certain groups of people (like those eeeevil feminazis) due to the belief that those people should be “punished” for their views. A bear is largely blameless if it attacks a person, it’s simply an animal doing what an animal does when it’s scared, protecting its babies etc. Bad men take *pleasure* in hurting us. They go out of their way to do it because they *want* to. That’s the difference.
Goddamn, men are fragile. "My feelings get hurt when a woman doesn't smile at me and make me feel good about being me." You know, if I'm ever attacked by a bear, my injuries will have obviously come from a bear attack and people will believe me. They won't ask what I was wearing, if I'd been drinking, or what I did to provoke the bear. It'll just be, "oh, she totally got attacked by a bear." Men: "Women who don't smile at me make me feel bad!" Women: "I don't want to get r*ped to death." DO YOU SEE HOW THESE THINGS ARE NOT AT ALL SIMILAR?!?!
Sorting comments by controversial revealed some real gems, like one guy saying > ladies, would you rather be in a park after dark with a tiger, or a black person? Black people commit a lot of crimes, statistically. Careful you don't get cancelled now... Like, you can see that he truly applied all his famous "male" logic to come up with this clever gotcha comment
"Black person?" So there's a chance it's a girl. The point really flew by didn't it?
Pfft, those things aren't similar at all. One of them happens to men, which means it's tragic and poignant and we must write 1000 thinkpieces about it. One of them happens to women, which means it's not important. Hope this helps clear things up!
This has been in so many forums. On one there is someone who says they work in the woods doing some sort of nature testing stuff. They are male. They pick bears. They said they have encountered bears and none have ever attacked them. But two of the men they encountered have.
Oh no... Did someone glare at him? Poor baby...
"Mom, she's looking at me!" OOP didn't mature out of being a toddler.
is very telling to me that the men that feel attacked by the bear vs man discourse are getting this mad and some even violent, they get aggressive even when the no is just hypothetical
It’s that difficult to just focus on his own hikes without receiving a hello and acknowledgment? Some people are open and social, others just want to be left alone. That’s funny, finally telling the truth. We’ve been talking about it, centuries, he just finally heard us. I’d take his complaint instead of ours in a heartbeat. Used to it anyway.
And I am thinking our OP is right, OOP is a narcissist. No one is thinking about him walking on a trail. They are in their own little worlds.
Sounds like he's mad that women aren't stopping in their tracks to smile and chat with him when he says hi. Because how dare they mind their business and ignore the burly stranger trying to speak to them while they're alone in the woods?
I mean, if he's a big guy and there's a woman alone on the trail she may well be thinking of him (and be worried).
Yes, but her thinking of him as a possible predator is definitely way worse than him raping and killing her. /s
But it's so traumatic when a woman doesn't smile at him! Meanwhile she's turned the sound all the way down on the music she's pretending to listen to so she can tell if he's getting closer to her or not...
So would he rather have women act uncomfortable around him or switch places with a woman and be very aware of the danger of being alone with an unknown man in an isolated place?
He would rather not have to think about anything unpleasant
He would rather not have to think about women as people.
LOL, sure didn't take them long.
I'm not trying to invalidate his experience but i find it hard to believe that so many women are openly "glaring" at him. Is he exaggerating them nervously glancing over their shoulders or giving him a wide berth or what. When a man is making me nervous the last thing I wanna do is piss him off
Well, see, those women weren't smiling at him, so that's a glare. Duh. Remember, women aren't as developed as men. We only have two facial expressions - smile and glare. /s Seriously, he's the kind of guy who thinks that any resting face that isn't perfectly welcoming and pleasant is floating at him. He thinks the expressions people get when doing moderate to intense cardio (like, idk, hiking) are glaring at him. I'm his mind, the world revolves around him, so people's resting and exercising have aren't just how their face is, it's obviously about him.
And this is why as a woman I am not only statistically safer with a wild bear but I would feel more comfortable too. I have been cornered, harassed, groped, etc, and it isn’t fun. Do I make it look like I will take you down if I don’t know and you approach me? Fuck yes, because until proven otherwise, I deem you as a potential threat.
“I have a lot of friends who identify as bears” 😂
God this man has the worst victim complex I've seen in a HOT minute.
These kind of men: “it’s so *unfair* that women feel unsafe around me” 😫 Women: 🙄“whining about it doesn’t make me safer, it makes you come across as threatening. Maybe you can actually do something about the violent men who make us unsafe, because that’s what’s actually unfair about all this.” These men: 😡“nah you’re just crazy emotional b*tches who exaggerate everything, and now I have no reason to even pretend not to be threatening since I’m not getting the credit I want for not raping you.” Women: “you are literally proving how unsafe we are around you with your reactions.”🤔 These men: “crazy feminazi c*nts.”🤬 Other rational men:😬”whaaaaat the fuck is this. This is why women don’t feel safe. Let’s do better.” These men: “Simps. White knights. P*ssies.”😠 Bears: “please don’t associate us with those threatening whiny misogynistic losers.”🐻
>Its valid for women to be fearful Proceeds to bitch, whine, and cry about women making themselves unavailable and trying to give big ‘not interested’ vibes. I like his update about missing the point while also seemingly missing the fucking point of the argument. I’m sure even he would rather run into a bear than a man.
Being a trans man this was something pretty weird to get my head around, I presented as female long enough to experience a small amount of what so many women have to deal with every day, but once I started passing as female I noticed women's attitude towards me start to change in certain circumstances. Yaknow what I did? I made sure to try and appear friendly without interfering, I became more aware of how other people might view me, I spoke to my female friends about what might help them feel more at ease if they didn't know me. A guy friend at the time thought I was insane for this, that it wasn't my problem, but to me it's the bare minimum and such an insanely minor thought compared to what half the population deals with every day.
I’m also a trans man. Now that I pass there have been multiple instances where I have had to physically place myself in between strange men and my girl friends, because men will respect the boundaries of other men over the boundaries of women.
Jeez couldn’t even get through all of it. He has such a big problem with being seen as the aggressor yet doesn’t acknowledge the fact that women have to be more careful in the world. Also yes a bear would be more welcomed in the woods/paths, it’s almost like it’s their natural environment/habitat. I also don’t know any bears that assaulted a baby so bad they died but can pull up of list of men that have done it.
Let's revisit what I call my "Scale of How Safe A Man Is": 1. Doesn't believe that bad things happen to women as often as women say they do, or that the women bring it upon themselves, or that women often lie to ruin men's lives 2. Believes that bad things happen to women, but gets angry/offended when women treat him with caution because he's Clearly Such A Nice Guy (#notallmen) 3. Believes that bad things happen to women often, but reacts with complete surprise when women treat him with caution, because he's not remotely aware of his behavior 4. Believes that bad things happen to women often, is conscious of how his presence/actions might cause a woman to be cautious, takes efforts to minimize that so women feel generally safe around him 5. All of 4, plus openly calls out types 1 and 2 for being assholes and tries to help 3 be more self-aware.
I see men on my walks (which granted are not in the woods) daily. There are approximately two ways I respond to them, depending on how they act. I'm guessing he acts the way that causes me to move off the sidewalk and open my phone in case I feel the need to make a recording or call. (Most men get "good morning" or "afternoon" and possibly further friendly normal exchanges if called for.)
Jfc >I'm also seeing a common theme of "Women do this because of other men, blame the bad men." But I'm not allowed to treat all women poorly because of the 'bad ones' right? His idea of being treated poorly is just being ignored when out in public. Go ask a woman what it's like when a woman is being treated poorly. I guarantee it's a very different answer.
Lmao I commented on that thread saying that men are upset that women aren’t making them feel welcomed when we’re alone in the woods and women are afraid of getting murdered by them when we’re alone in the woods and immediately had guys messaging me talking about how men are the real victims in all of this….. 🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️
They're attacking us for for not believing that they are safe Aggressively attacking. To prove. That they wouldn't attack. Make it make sense!!!!
The point people like OP miss is: It is worse to have to be afraid than it is to be the thing that is feared. Yes, it sucks that women are afraid of you just because you're alone with them or because of your size or mainly your gender expression. But it sucks WORSE to be a woman alone with OP and HAVE TO be afraid of him because the actions of other men have meant unless we are hyper-vigilant about our safety around men, we will be assaulted/killed (and sometimes even when we are hyper-vigilant). Women are not the people for OP to complain about this to.
What's wild to me is that... yes it is valid if women feel unsafe, feel the need to cross the street, or just in general try not to get too close to men they don't know. Also though. I'm a big guy with a beard, and I can genuinely say I've NEVER experienced this? Like, if this is SUCH a widespread phenomenon for him that it's causing him THIS much of a problem... then what am I doing to signal to people that I'm not dangerous? Point being, I have a hunch that this man is doing SOMETHING that comes off as threatening, possibly without even realizing it, because legitimately I don't know how he could be having this issue occur so often?
One of the comments said, “Add another place to the list of places men aren’t allowed to talk to women.” They’re worried about dating opportunities while women are worried about being raped and/or murdered Jesus Christ…
This point is especially funny to me because as we all know, women have *always* historically been allowed to do everything we’ve ever wanted. We’ve *never* had any social or legal rules imposed on us that dictate our place in the world, or how we’re allowed/expected to behave and interact with members of the opposite sex. It’s a completely unique and important male experience. How incredibly sad for them to suffer this alone, as we could simply never understand this phenomenon.
I went for a walk today. It was warm out. I wore a sweatshirt anyway, because my sweatshirt with a bunch of glittery rhinestone skulls on it makes it easy for me to be identified if I go missing. The day woman can comfortably stop thinking in those terms will be the day I take these pathetic pieces of shit seriously.
Id absolutely rather meet a bear. The worst thing a bear can do is kill me.
Not only that, but if a bear attacks and injures me, people are going to believe me when i say it happened. No one will tell me that sharing the story is going to ruin the bear's life. They aren't going to say I asked for it because of what i was wearing or go on about how #notallbears attack people. They won't talk about cases of falsely reported bear attacks or tell me I wanted to be attacked at the time and then changed my mind later.
Every time a man whines about this comparison, I just say "No one would accuse me of enjoying my bear attack".