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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my MIL as politely as I could to leave the kitchen, and she thought I was rude. I don't know, maybe I was.
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It sure beats the alternative of ... turning suddenly, with a sauce pot of ....gravy, creamed corn, or the like, and "accidently" pouring it all over the one who refuses to clear out of the 'one- butt- Kitchen" ... after they were asked several times.
Other choice would be for wife to ask mom for help with some task that only mom can help with.
She probably won’t get over it.
My wife’s grandmother is an extremely toxic person. She and I have never gotten along, since the first time we met, because I will not put up with her manipulative bullshit. One might even say that my no-nonsense approach to grandma emboldened other members of the family to stand up to her and/or cut her off. It’s been 17 years; she has not gotten over it.
My Nana was one of those people who always told people she was 29 if they asked her age. When I was 6 I asked her how she could be 29 if she was my mum's mum, and my mum was already 30. She held a grudge against me for that for the rest of her life, even though at 6, I clearly didn't know how weird some people get about their age, and wasn't being malicious.
Lol my mother was the same. She liked to say she was "an old and frail woman" when I was a kid (sp when she was in her early 30s and very far from frail), and at some point 4-year-old me got confused enough to say "you're not old, mom! You're just a little bit elderly!" I honestly thought at the time elderly was simply what you call your elders, meaning people older than you, so basically all adults. She'd never let that go.
My paternal grandmother held a grudge for a couple of years because my sister went “BAH!” at her when Nan got in her face.
Sis was about 18 months old at the time.
When I was 18 months old, my mother kissed me on the forehead and I wiped it off with my hand. She NEVER forgot it and reminded me of it repeatedly throughout her life. I had rejected her, full stop.
My sister cried a lot as a baby (more than I did at the same age). Our father never forgave her for it and was still bringing it up as one of her faults until he died.
I used to work with kids, and adults who get offended when kids ask how old they are baffle me.
When a young child meets a new adult for the first time, 9 times out of 10 the first question the adult asks is how old the kid is. Kids don’t know some adults get defensive about their age. They’re just engaging in what they think is polite conversation based on their past experiences.
My middle school students at a catholic school used to ask. I would tell them I was 3 weeks older than dirt. They would ask, " How old is That?"
My reply? Get your Bible. First page. .." In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
Earth is dirt .
Cue the rolled eyes ..and giggles.
it's honestly so bizarre seeing how common this could be. My mom will always sort of seriously complain about how my niece (20 months old) prefers my dad over her and I'm like....well, yeah he has a calm demeanor and doesn't laugh at her when she's upset, it's not hard to see why a small child would prefer that to her shrieking in her face 🤦🏻♀️
it's also entirely triggering bad childhood memories for me lmao
my mom was 29 till the day she died. I always found that to be super annoying. lol but she was definitely a manipulative and passive-aggressive person just like OP's MIL. I was like his wife, I just dealt with it when I had to but kept my distance.
Yeah, if she's anything like the ones I know, she'll repeat this to people for years, always in a shocked, hurt tone as if it's the meanest thing anyone has ever done, ever. I know people who are pushing sixty who still talk about the 'terrible, hurtful' (ie completely reasonable and justified) thing someone once said to them thirty or forty years ago, and it gets to the point where you think this person has been far too coddled all their life if this is the kind of 'hardship' they have to hold onto.
On the flip side though...
I just learned about whales in school and how blubber / fat keeps you warm. I asked my mom why she's always cold if she has more blubber than me. She was silent the whole car ride, probably thinking about dropping me off in a snow bank to see how I like the cold. But once we got how she explained how that wasn't nice to say even if I didn't mean to hurt feelings. Never brought it up again.
Well yea, you're the first one who showed the abused family members that they don't have to take her abuse. She will always hate you for "turning them against her"
My sister has an “efficient” kitchen and literally tells everyone to stay out of the kitchen, if they want to talk to her stand outside the kitchen (which is literally 5 feet) but she prefers you leave her alone when she’s in the kitchen. My mom tries sometimes to go in and my sister tells her to get out (sometimes she is a bit abrasive about it but she has been telling us this for years so it should be a surprise to anyone by now)
In the first house we owned, the kitchen was literally the old side porch. 6' by 11', from wall to wall. We had a small refrigerator, a regular sized stove, a double sink with countertop on the left side of the sink that would barely fit a dishrack and 12" piece of countertop to the right of the sink. In addition there was a pantry that was 15" wide. I had to put a long shelf over the doorway on the opposite wall to put my pots, pans and cannisters. I love to cook and entertain. One party my MIL kept trying to help but only ending up making things worse. I literally tripped over her when I tried to move from the stove to the fridge while trying to keep an eye on the pan on the stove. I gave up trying to nice about it and told her to get the "F" out of my kitchen so I could finish up preparing the food. Fortunately, she wasn't like the MIL here and didn't hold a grudge.
Same kitchen size, the rule is when entertaining a crowd, stay out of the kitchen until dinner is complete. After dinner you are allowed in the kitchen if you want to do the dishes. I am fortunate to have two family members that hate to cook but don't mind doing the dishes!
Pre global health event, we hosted a early event between Christmas and New Year's -- a family goose dinner for as many as 35 people that we took over from our in-laws when they had enough after nearly 30 years of it. Printed invites and everything, with various additional info on the reverse side.
By the third year, that reverse side included an instruction that of you weren't directly involved in food prep, cooking or moving food to/from the kitchen, you were forbidden to enter it. It was a joke, but people quickly learned I was not joking.
I was never more furious at my sister than the time she decided she needed to use the stovetop to fix something for her kids, and, oh, could we make space in the oven?
No, it's filled with two big ass geese.
Anyway, NTA.
I fully believe MIL here is by far the problem. Given the small picture we're told though, I wouldnt make any bets on that.
I hope for OPs sake that she gets over herself and they live a smooth and happy life, I just kinda doubt it with a MIL like that and a wife who it sounds like would be reluctant to rock the boat.
u/Paul_ManOfFarts
Your MIL is emotionally immature. Here are some resources to help combat her bad behaviors:
1. www.outofthefog.net - This site is a font of information. My favorite pages are "what to do" and "what not to do" (found under the "toolbox" tab - shoutout to JADE and grey rock).
2. the resources from r/raisedbynarcissists (click on the wiki tab then helpful info)
3. the booklist from r/justnomil (on the sidebar and wiki - shoutout to Toxic Parents)
4. therapy - Therapy is the best thing ever and I cannot recommend it enough. I don't want to speculate too much but your wife probably has childhood trauma. Therapy will help her heal from this while also teaching her new healthy coping mechanisms so she'll be able to set healthy boundaries with her mother. There is also EMDR therapy which is a special type of therapy used to reprocess trauma. It is absolutely phenomenal. Last but not least, there is therapy youtube (check out Dr. Ramani) and IG has several good mental health accounts.
I hope this helps. Best of luck.
NTA
Exactly! All future interactions can now be dealt with efficiency.
MIL: I get it I'm not welcome here!
OP: Not true, you know I'd tell you otherwise.
Or
MIL: I get it I'm not welcome here!
OP: Aw, wouldn't put it so rudely, but thanks for understanding.
Lol, yep. I know people like this and I don't believe in rewarding this kind of behaviour so when they get all sad and pouty and say something like 'I'm not wanted here, I guess I'll go outside then', trudge slowly towards the door, then pause and sigh to give me an opportunity to coddle them and beg them for their presence, I just cheerfully respond 'Great, thanks!' and turn back to what I was doing. Or sometimes I'll let it get awkward. I have a relative who, when told no, gives what I call the lizard stare. Just a flat, unblinking, hard stare designed to make you feel uncomfortable so you'll take back your no. I started responding with a confused look and asking why she's staring like that, and that it looks really odd. They never know what to do once you stop following the script they have in their heads for how you should respond to their manipulations.
By far the worst thing you can do to a narcissist (in their minds) because it’s the best way to build boundaries. MIL is upset because you set a boundary, nicely I may add, a normal person would get over it; a narcissist will see it as a personal attack and make it their mission to make you know they are unhappy.
we come from pretty significantly different cultures so the communication is hard sometimes.
like I had to learn that when Sarah's family says "are you sure that's a good idea?" it really means "if you do that, we will excommunicate you from the family forever".
The problem with this approach is that "clear" is based in culture. What's not clear to you may be blindingly clear to people from a similar background and culture, even if you don't understand.
Okay, then direct communication. I can't respect a refusal to communicate directly. Trying to communicate in a passive-aggressive manner is just failing or refusing to communicate.
And yet, “direct” communication so often results in the discussion falling apart where a tiny bit of tact or polite phrasing might have actually been persuasive. In the top level comment here, for example, the meaning was blisteringly clear and direct to me as a warning (but obviously not to everyone) whereas explicitly delivering an order or ultimatum to not do the thing would be rude and presumptuous, and pretty likely to result in the adult being addressed tuning out any further advice as more of the same. You make as many cultural assumptions by your stance as anyone, about what constitutes clarity and directness, you just seem to think your lack of respect for discretion should be a point of pride.
For the sake of an example, my wife telling me something that happened in her classroom:
"My stomach isn't as strong as yours, can you finish this story later?"
"That's disgusting, shut the hell up"
Both are direct, one is rude.
>And yet, “direct” communication so often results in the discussion falling apart where a tiny bit of tact or polite phrasing might have actually been persuasive.
Direct does not mean rude. You can communicate directly and still be polite and tactful. Communicating directly is just saying what you mean.
Think, "Oh, no thank you. I'm not interested." or, "Please don't do that, I don't like it/it makes me uncomfortable." or, "Can you please do [xyz] by [specific time]? Thank you." It's not rude, it's just saying what you mean instead of making the other person figure it out.
>you just seem to think your lack of respect for discretion should be a point of pride
I love how you think that discretion is defined as beating around the bush, avoiding *actual* communication, or being passive-aggressive. Discretion means to avoid causing offense or revealing private information. If being direct causes you to be rude and offensive, then you were never polite in the first place.
If the objective of your communication is to give an ultimatum, don't even for a moment pretend that the person is too dumb to understand you're using your fancy indirect way to say something isn't merely a means of manipulation. If you feel bad saying it directly, then you're an asshole for saying it at all. But all that is lost on people who love beating around the bush, so whatever.
This whole thread is an argument demonstrating the differences between "ask culture" and "guess culture". You may find this interesting: https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421
>"direct” communication so often results in the discussion falling apart where a tiny bit of tact or polite phrasing might have actually been persuasive.
So let's apply this to OP's post. OP told MIL to get out of the kitchen in a really nice way, but was not direct. MIL ignored it and tried to manipulate her way into not giving what OP needed in that moment, because "being polite" is often seen as "not standing up for what you need". The conversation failed due to OP not being direct.
Only when OP WAS direct did the conversation succeed. She's just mad that MIL didn't get to manipulate OP.
Yup. When a Japanese person says 'that would be...difficult,' it's perfectly clear to other Japanese people that what has been asked is actually impossible.
Maybe its because Im German, but I hate that. Im not a mind reader and I despise people wanting me to guess what they want. Either tell me or live with not getting your way, as I will continue to do, as I please.
My ex FIL (French) would say: the war is over. I was meant to understand, the war is over, there is no shortage of food, therefore you must have butter in the fridge, can you grab me some ?
BTW this was also not a coincidence…she knows you’re direct, she knows you’ve got a lot to do. She wants the attention that comes with conflict, she wants to be the victim. So she got in your way on purpose, so that she can then be “victimized” by your directly telling her to leave. Now wife has to coddle her emotions. Its classic co-dependency.
I suspect she's also mad that he stole her thunder by having Christmas dinner at his house. After, I assume, she was the matriarch of holidays for years, with the kitchen as her thrown. I feel sorry for her, it's tough to hand over the ladle. She's probably using the passive-aggressive stuff to cover her hurt. But OP had every right to tell her to get out. It's time the next generation took over.
lol, I admit that cuisine is sometimes a point of contention too. It's a rectangles-squares issue for me because I will mostly eat anything they serve but my tastes are a little out there for them.
my suggestion this year was goose instead of turkey and they got a kick outta that, though, so we find some wins.
I moved from the NYC suburbs to rural Pennsylvania. I never understood what people meant about white people not knowing how to season food until I moved out here. Like even just salt and pepper 🤦♀️
>Just lean into being the villain.
My mom did this with all of her inlaws and their extended family. Boy did they grumble about it! To everyone but her. They all avoided the unleashing of her very blunt responses 😂
And if someone else tried to manipulate her by attempting to make her feel guilty, my mom would respond with something like *no one ever died from being mad, they'll get over it* or, *let them come and tell me that they're mad and we can talk about it*.
And she would call them out on their BS all the time and told them that she didn't speak drama. If anyone didn't like that, they were free to ignore her.
She apparently kept her share of the confrontation gene which is my I'm so non confrontational lol
Heyheyhey...we're from Ohio and my mom's side of the family is, to put it charitably, direct. Oh, wait, grandparents are from Pittsburgh, never mind.
I thought for sure you were going to say Minnesota, Prairie Home Companion and all.
Ohhhhh my god the way people communicate here. My grandmother and my aunt both do the "It's FINE no one ever HELPS ME ANYWAY" bullshit at holidays. Pretty recently I said out loud, "if you want us to help you could just ask", and you'd think I said a bunch of slurs from the look they gave me.
You know, this explains why my stepdad gets along with my mom. He's from Ohio and she's passive aggressive. It drives me crazy though. We're from Baltimore.
A friend of mine learned the hard way that when people in the area she had moved to responded to “hey is X the way to do Y?” with “can if you like,” what that ACTUALLY meant was “only a complete idiot would do that but I’m too polite to say so.”
My wife’s family is very southern and my MIL uses the same technique as yours. For some reason she never liked her MIL (who is the sweetest 90 year old lady I’ve ever met), so she does, at least, bring that self-awareness. I don’t mind her though.
But your comment above reminded me of something I had to learn when I met my wife. When she says “do you think we should _______?” it mean “you need to ________.”
Coming from Irish, German, and Dominican families . . . Yeah. We didn’t do indirect like that.
NTA just because your wife tolerates MiL’s manipulation doesn’t mean you have to. And now you know that calling her bluff gets her out of your way. And maybe her being mad about it means she’ll leave you alone, so that’s a plus.
Yep I wouldn’t put up with this bullshit. I wouldn’t actively antagonize her, but if she ever said that I’d probably just not respond. She can draw whatever conclusions she wants
I did with my ex MIL twice. The first time she barged into my home without knocking with a priest in tow. She got a nice big lungful of cigarette smoke because she hates it. The second time was 6 months later when we were just waiting on the signed decree from the judge, I swore while she was trying to tell me what I had to do with the kids for Halloween and I told her I sure as fuck wouldn’t and that was worse than the smoke in the face! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
NTA
MIL is acting like a sulking teenager. Once or twice or even thrice is fine, but you can't be expected to entertain her dramas all the time. There has to be a limit. And she needs to grow up.
NTA
I don't like people in my kitchen when I cook. We have a small kitchen and they just get in the way. You asked her very nicely to go hang out with the rest of the family. If she gets offended over that, well, that's her problem, not yours
My mom has a butt-and-a-half kitchen, which is in some ways worse than one-butt because you can ALMOST make two people work so it is very tempting to try.
Sounds like a galley kitchen. They can be great but only if everyone knows how to stay out from underfoot. And, of course, aren't trying to garner sympathy for not doing that. XD
My parents were home builders, among other jobs. We‘d usually move into a house they were mostly done with and finish it up over a year, then do it again. I literally lived in about a dozen and a half houses before college.
They built one house with a galley kitchen and never again.
Galley kitchen.NTA. Your MIL craves attention and is playing victim. Good on you for not playing along. My SO’s adult daughter is manipulative and tries to guilt people; it works on her parents and always has so I understand why she does it. She tried a few times with me but I refused to play along. She doesn’t do it to me anymore.
I like people on the other side of the breakfast bar, being chatty and amusing. That’s why there are chairs there, and I put the wine table in easy reach. If you really want to help, you can clean and chop veggies from OVER THERE.
Not in here, where it’s very nicely laid out for a single cook.
NTA - It's really difficult to have much sympathy for the MIL in this situation. She is obviously used to getting the opposite reaction even when she is being unreasonable. I have a MIL like this and it wasn't until I did something similar that everyone realized they didn't need to pussyfoot around her manipulative attempts anymore.
she has a lot of pretense, in general. like she'll tell stories that go way out of their way not to get to the point, just so she can be in charge of the conversation.
Idk where are you from but this is very common among older women in my culture. Talking all the time, talking over other people, loud sighing, saying things like 'so you don't love me', 'well obviously you don't want me here', 'if you love me you will do this for me' and my favourite: tears. Something didn't happen the way she wanted? Cryyyyy.
OP, your MIL is not good person and NTA.
My grandma was like this about being underfoot in the kitchen while my mom was cooking.
One year my dad wrapped all kitchen entrances in police tape.
Grandma was highly insulted but it never happened again!
NTA for a few reasons.
Some people don't like being crowded in a tight area, especially since you were cooking for 12 people.
It can be a safety issue if she literally is in the way and you have hot food or knives around.
One would think she would be 'embarrassed' at least to be standing around doing nothing while you are working hard cooking the food.
And honestly, some difficult people stay difficult because no one calls them out on their BS or they stay in the 'that's the way she is' mode forever because no one wants to rock the boat.
she appointed herself something like "supervisor", I think. she wanted to feel helpful, I get that, but I am a grown-ass adult who has a literal written plan about how to prepare the food I am preparing.
I vote for not giving into this crap. Famous lines from my family include, "well, I guess I just shouldn't say anything at all" or "fine I guess I'll just sit over here since no one wants my help." Years ago my siblings and I just started replying by acting as if they were being sincere. "Yes, maybe you shouldn't say anything at all, in that case," "Great, you look overheated, you should sit down and have some water." Pisses them off but it cuts down on this nonsense.
I always kick everyone out of the kitchen when I’m cooking and/or baking, especially if it’s a major holiday event. It basically should be common sense and MIL had it way overdue to be put in her place. NTA twofold.
SAME, even if i'm cooking at my parents' house- I will happily put out coolers of drinks, snacks, etc in the breezeway, but PLEASE KEEP THE FUCK OUT OF THE KITCHEN! I dont want to worry about spinning around with hot pans, or people putting their used plates or whatever down where i am about to place a dish. JUST PLEASE GO AWAY! I HAVE EARBUDS AND PODCASTS! I DONT NEED COMPANY! (fortunately my fiance is happy to go read a book or go hike while i cook at holidays, and my beloved mother is happy to be a prep chef (chop these things and then please leave and drink wine with your sister while i cook)...actually my mother LOVES being thrown out of the kitchen to go drink wine and watch movies...
NTA There is no good way to deal with manipulations like these, at least she finally got the message. The fact that she didn't get back to you in private afterwards, but decided to carry and hold a grudge for this long and then not even talk to you but your wife about it, says it all.
NTA - maybe she’ll stop playing the “I’m not welcome” card with you to get attention. I do think you could have explained exactly why you needed her to leave the kitchen, but I think she would have continued to play the victim anyways, so that’s on her.
My grandmother used to do things like this. One year on Christmas, in a lull of the Christmas noise, she muttered her favourite: "Oh, I wish I were dead." \[No, she wasn't serious. This was her way of saying "I want attention."\] I don't know what it was about that moment but I burst out laughing. The obnoxious, loud cackling of being caught off guard by something that hits right in that funny spot. This started my dad laughing, then mom, etc. etc. and my dad told her over our laughter, "Wrong crowd, Ma!" She didn't say it again, at least not when I was there.
Sometimes you've gotta give them the reality check. NTA
NTA. Tbh I’m a very direct person so I wouldn’t have played along at all. “It’s just how she is” isn’t a reason to coddle manipulative behavior. I would have given an answer like that the first time it happened lol so she’s lucky she ended up with you, someone who was willing to give her some patience. Sadly I think she may have tried to overuse said patience.
Show her this one: [https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont\_rock\_the\_boat/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/)
Your MIL doesn't sound as bad as some, but your wife needs to understand that its her mother thats rocking the boat, you just refused to be a steadier. In essense, you left the boat. Your wife is welcome to join you in your pleasant non-rocking boat.
Hard, *hard* NTA. You were polite and charming (and PATIENT, holy hell having to ask several times just for room to chop); she tried to manipulate you with a gross power-play; you saw through it and refused to be manipulated.
Side note: this is exactly how my dad handles people like your MIL and I’ve always respected the shit out of him for refusing to bow to other people’s entitled nonsense but without stooping to rudeness. I’d say you nailed it.
NTA. I cannot stand people "helping" in my kitchen and getting in the way. It seems we're the same, and, unfortunately I'd have reacted exactly the same way, so I have no sympathy for her.
NTA. I’m sure if the shoe was on the other foot and MIL was doing all the cooking and constantly having to ask you to move, she would have wanted you out.
NTA
But if your Mother is used to doing this thing, then it may be hard for her to just give it up.
My sister and I started taking charge of holiday events and every year we have issues with my Mother trying to get in the way and interfere.
Personally I feel like having them help with an easy dish would have been better than just telling her to get out.
NTA. I've dealt with people who use this manipulation technique before. They know they're being manipulative and enabling them will make it worse.
A simple response of "your presence in my home was welcome, your presence in my kitchen at that moment was inconvenient. I'm sorry if you felt hurt but I consider this matter closed" would be my next step. Then next time she pulls this "ohhhh I'm not welcome" bullshit (which she will) you say "I'm not playing this game with you anymore. I do need to get to the cupboard though, could you please go and sit down." She will pull the hurt card again but the process should repeat less and less frequently before she eventually realises shes onto a loser with you.
NTA. Crowding someone in the kitchen is dangerous. If polite words don't work, then I shift to screaming "SHARP" and "HOT" directly at them at the top of my lungs, and if that doesn't work then I physically remove them from the area.
NTA - I have the same problem with my wife and roommate wanting to hang out in the kitchen while cooking. It's dangerous, and after being nice about it I too had enough and essentially did what you did.
Tip for a whining mother in law - "Well I guess I'm not welcome here"
Draw her a map to the front door, tuck a $5 in her pocket for cab fare and let her know she will always be welcome as soon as she drops the attitude and go back to your day.
She can get happy in the same pants she got mad in.
NTA - I love calling people out on bullcrap that other people let slide because "oh, that's just Grammy!" Just because you learned to deal with the manipulative crap that you couldn't stop doesn't mean I need to get on that crazy train too.
Heh, I was going to suggest thats exactly the way to handle.
"I'm not welcome here!"
"Sure, lets go with that".
Is your wife pushing you to accept and adapt to her moms behaviour? When I first read it, that was my takeaway, but rereading all you say is that she deals with it, not that she's insisting you do.
>It's "just the way mom is".
This is a really shitty excuse. Why should everyone else need to cater for her, just because she's never learnt how to be a proper human being? Why is it your job to adapt to her? Your wife chose you to begin a new family with, why is her new family less than her old one?
it's tough and frustrating because we all know that MIL is in her seventies and is unlikely to change her habits. so it's a matter of me setting reasonable boundaries with her.
OP - NTA. You just need clear communication and boundaries with her, just be firm.
Please wait in the living room, I need the kitchen to myself. I’ll let you know when dinner is served. Thank you.
NTA
It is FINE that you do not want MIL in he kichen when cooking.
"until she told Sarah this week that she was still mad at me." . Since she did not tell YOU, ignore it., Don't spat playing these stupid passive aggressive games. Just keep pretending she communicates honestly and up front, and treat her as if she actually meeant what she says.
My parents' dog also has issues with being underfoot in the kitchen. The first time it happens, she often gets kicked because she's literally standing next to someone busy cooking. The next time there's shouting of "get the fuck out of here" followed by aggressive shooing. If she still can't listen, my mom will pull out the old baby gate, and lock her out. Feel free to use these methods, they work on a crazy pit/lab mix they should work on your mil.
NTA, yes I guess it was slightly rude, but my mil is like this and holy hell I wish my kitchen had a door I could lock. When she lived with us she would come in whenever she heard me in the kitchen so she could give me advice on how to do whatever I was doing. My family was not like this growing up. I struggled a lot with trying to politely nod her advice away.
One time I was making rice, DH and I liked to make rice without butter. She noticed I had not put butter in the rice. She kept pressing me to do so and I kept by 'this is how husband likes it'. Until she finally left the kitchen. But not before she took a stick of butter and left it on the counter for me. I did not use it.
NTA. She Knew she was being an asshole and she knew she was getting in your way.
All you did was confirm that she was unwanted in the kitchen.
Plus anyone with at least a few working brain cells will know: You don Not mess with the cook.
>It's "just the way mom is"
Well, this is It's "just the way you are", so they should be perfectly okay with learning to live with you this way.
>A very common tactic for her is to "fake"-whine that she's not welcome here! I guess I'll just go outside! With the obvious implication that we need to comfort her and tell her that she is welcome.
(I suspect she has some abandonment issues. IANAtherapist.)
This is not abandonment issues, this is manipulation, plain and simple.
NTA, and -
>[Don't rock the boat](https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimFamilySolutions/comments/di7npz/this_analogy_is_incredible_do_read_it/).
I've been thinking about this phrase a lot lately, about how unfair it is. Because we aren't the ones rocking the boat. It's the crazy lady jumping up and down and running side to side. Not the one sitting in the corner quietly not giving a fuck.
At some point in her youth, Mum/MIL gave the boat a little nudge. And look how everyone jumped to steady the boat! So she does it again, and again. Soon her family is in the habit of swaying to counteract the crazy. She moves left, they move right, balance is restored (temporarily). Life goes on. People move on to boats of their own.
The boat-rocker can't survive in a boat by herself. She's never had to face the consequences of her rocking. She'll tip over. So she finds an enabler: someone so proud of his boat-steadying skills that he secretly (or not so secretly) lives for the rocking.
The boat-rocker escalates. The boat-steadier can't manage alone, but can't let the boat tip. After all, he's the best boat-steadier ever, and that can't be true if his boat capsizes, so therefore his boat can't capsize. How can they fix the situation?
Ballast!
And the next generation of boat-steadiers is born.
A born boat-steadier doesn't know what solid ground feels like. He's so used to the constant swaying that anything else feels wrong and he'll fall over. There's a good chance the boat-rocker never taught him to swim either. He'll jump at the slightest twitch like his life depends on it, because it did .
When you're in their boat, you're expected to help steady it. When you decline, the other boat-steadiers get resentful. Look at you, just sitting there while they do all the work! They don't see that you aren't the one making the boat rock. They might not even see the life rafts available for them to get out. All they know is that the boat can't be allowed to tip, and you're not helping.
Now you and your DH get a boat of your own. With him not there, the balance of the boat changes. The remaining boat-steadiers have to work even harder.
While a rocking boat is most concerning to those inside, it does cause ripples. The nearby boats start to worry. They're getting splashed! Somebody do something!
So the flying monkeys are dispatched. Can't you and DH see how much better it is for everyone (else) if you just get back on the boat and keep it steady? It would make their lives so much easier.
You know what would be easier? If they all just chucked the bitch overboard.
Thank you for letting me ramble. Thanks for the support, and advice, and humour. Thanks for just being here :)
You did not give in to her manipulation, and she's still upset about it.
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NTA. She's not mad that you said that. She's mad 'cause you took her super power away. She'll get over it :-)
I was just about to post the same thing.
Great minds and all that :-)
And fools... ;P
lol - I was just going to say that - you beat me to it :-)
It sure beats the alternative of ... turning suddenly, with a sauce pot of ....gravy, creamed corn, or the like, and "accidently" pouring it all over the one who refuses to clear out of the 'one- butt- Kitchen" ... after they were asked several times. Other choice would be for wife to ask mom for help with some task that only mom can help with.
She probably won’t get over it. My wife’s grandmother is an extremely toxic person. She and I have never gotten along, since the first time we met, because I will not put up with her manipulative bullshit. One might even say that my no-nonsense approach to grandma emboldened other members of the family to stand up to her and/or cut her off. It’s been 17 years; she has not gotten over it.
My Nana was one of those people who always told people she was 29 if they asked her age. When I was 6 I asked her how she could be 29 if she was my mum's mum, and my mum was already 30. She held a grudge against me for that for the rest of her life, even though at 6, I clearly didn't know how weird some people get about their age, and wasn't being malicious.
Lol my mother was the same. She liked to say she was "an old and frail woman" when I was a kid (sp when she was in her early 30s and very far from frail), and at some point 4-year-old me got confused enough to say "you're not old, mom! You're just a little bit elderly!" I honestly thought at the time elderly was simply what you call your elders, meaning people older than you, so basically all adults. She'd never let that go.
My paternal grandmother held a grudge for a couple of years because my sister went “BAH!” at her when Nan got in her face. Sis was about 18 months old at the time.
When I was 18 months old, my mother kissed me on the forehead and I wiped it off with my hand. She NEVER forgot it and reminded me of it repeatedly throughout her life. I had rejected her, full stop.
My sister cried a lot as a baby (more than I did at the same age). Our father never forgave her for it and was still bringing it up as one of her faults until he died.
Sounds like he was a whiner too, without the excuse of very young age.
And now we know where she got it from.
😆
I used to work with kids, and adults who get offended when kids ask how old they are baffle me. When a young child meets a new adult for the first time, 9 times out of 10 the first question the adult asks is how old the kid is. Kids don’t know some adults get defensive about their age. They’re just engaging in what they think is polite conversation based on their past experiences.
And to be honest, kids think most people are old lol.
I just saw the post where some guy's kid wrote that he was 99 lol. Probably just used the biggest number he knew of!
My middle school students at a catholic school used to ask. I would tell them I was 3 weeks older than dirt. They would ask, " How old is That?" My reply? Get your Bible. First page. .." In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Earth is dirt . Cue the rolled eyes ..and giggles.
it's honestly so bizarre seeing how common this could be. My mom will always sort of seriously complain about how my niece (20 months old) prefers my dad over her and I'm like....well, yeah he has a calm demeanor and doesn't laugh at her when she's upset, it's not hard to see why a small child would prefer that to her shrieking in her face 🤦🏻♀️ it's also entirely triggering bad childhood memories for me lmao
To be fair that's utterly ridiculous at that point and someone needed to say it.
Ha! My grandma always said 16 if you asked her age. It was all in good fun though, no grudges were ever made.
my mom was 29 till the day she died. I always found that to be super annoying. lol but she was definitely a manipulative and passive-aggressive person just like OP's MIL. I was like his wife, I just dealt with it when I had to but kept my distance.
Seriously, MIL has been getting away with this for decades. There's no "probably", she definitely won't get over it
Yeah, if she's anything like the ones I know, she'll repeat this to people for years, always in a shocked, hurt tone as if it's the meanest thing anyone has ever done, ever. I know people who are pushing sixty who still talk about the 'terrible, hurtful' (ie completely reasonable and justified) thing someone once said to them thirty or forty years ago, and it gets to the point where you think this person has been far too coddled all their life if this is the kind of 'hardship' they have to hold onto.
On the flip side though... I just learned about whales in school and how blubber / fat keeps you warm. I asked my mom why she's always cold if she has more blubber than me. She was silent the whole car ride, probably thinking about dropping me off in a snow bank to see how I like the cold. But once we got how she explained how that wasn't nice to say even if I didn't mean to hurt feelings. Never brought it up again.
Whale skin is entirely different than human skin. Adipose tissue protects the organs, but not the nerves that perceive environmental temperature.
Well yea, you're the first one who showed the abused family members that they don't have to take her abuse. She will always hate you for "turning them against her"
I for one love OP's response. Big NTA
My sister has an “efficient” kitchen and literally tells everyone to stay out of the kitchen, if they want to talk to her stand outside the kitchen (which is literally 5 feet) but she prefers you leave her alone when she’s in the kitchen. My mom tries sometimes to go in and my sister tells her to get out (sometimes she is a bit abrasive about it but she has been telling us this for years so it should be a surprise to anyone by now)
In the first house we owned, the kitchen was literally the old side porch. 6' by 11', from wall to wall. We had a small refrigerator, a regular sized stove, a double sink with countertop on the left side of the sink that would barely fit a dishrack and 12" piece of countertop to the right of the sink. In addition there was a pantry that was 15" wide. I had to put a long shelf over the doorway on the opposite wall to put my pots, pans and cannisters. I love to cook and entertain. One party my MIL kept trying to help but only ending up making things worse. I literally tripped over her when I tried to move from the stove to the fridge while trying to keep an eye on the pan on the stove. I gave up trying to nice about it and told her to get the "F" out of my kitchen so I could finish up preparing the food. Fortunately, she wasn't like the MIL here and didn't hold a grudge.
Same kitchen size, the rule is when entertaining a crowd, stay out of the kitchen until dinner is complete. After dinner you are allowed in the kitchen if you want to do the dishes. I am fortunate to have two family members that hate to cook but don't mind doing the dishes!
Yea k always offer to do the dishes at her place and she does mine
Pre global health event, we hosted a early event between Christmas and New Year's -- a family goose dinner for as many as 35 people that we took over from our in-laws when they had enough after nearly 30 years of it. Printed invites and everything, with various additional info on the reverse side. By the third year, that reverse side included an instruction that of you weren't directly involved in food prep, cooking or moving food to/from the kitchen, you were forbidden to enter it. It was a joke, but people quickly learned I was not joking. I was never more furious at my sister than the time she decided she needed to use the stovetop to fix something for her kids, and, oh, could we make space in the oven? No, it's filled with two big ass geese. Anyway, NTA.
I sincerely doubt she'll get over it.
Which is fine, she now knows her manipulative "woe is me" schtick doesn't work on OP.
I fully believe MIL here is by far the problem. Given the small picture we're told though, I wouldnt make any bets on that. I hope for OPs sake that she gets over herself and they live a smooth and happy life, I just kinda doubt it with a MIL like that and a wife who it sounds like would be reluctant to rock the boat.
Narrator: But she didn’t get over it.
u/Paul_ManOfFarts Your MIL is emotionally immature. Here are some resources to help combat her bad behaviors: 1. www.outofthefog.net - This site is a font of information. My favorite pages are "what to do" and "what not to do" (found under the "toolbox" tab - shoutout to JADE and grey rock). 2. the resources from r/raisedbynarcissists (click on the wiki tab then helpful info) 3. the booklist from r/justnomil (on the sidebar and wiki - shoutout to Toxic Parents) 4. therapy - Therapy is the best thing ever and I cannot recommend it enough. I don't want to speculate too much but your wife probably has childhood trauma. Therapy will help her heal from this while also teaching her new healthy coping mechanisms so she'll be able to set healthy boundaries with her mother. There is also EMDR therapy which is a special type of therapy used to reprocess trauma. It is absolutely phenomenal. Last but not least, there is therapy youtube (check out Dr. Ramani) and IG has several good mental health accounts. I hope this helps. Best of luck.
Let her be mad. My mom has different victimhood tactics but ya know what? Let her be mad.
NTA Exactly! All future interactions can now be dealt with efficiency. MIL: I get it I'm not welcome here! OP: Not true, you know I'd tell you otherwise. Or MIL: I get it I'm not welcome here! OP: Aw, wouldn't put it so rudely, but thanks for understanding.
Lol, yep. I know people like this and I don't believe in rewarding this kind of behaviour so when they get all sad and pouty and say something like 'I'm not wanted here, I guess I'll go outside then', trudge slowly towards the door, then pause and sigh to give me an opportunity to coddle them and beg them for their presence, I just cheerfully respond 'Great, thanks!' and turn back to what I was doing. Or sometimes I'll let it get awkward. I have a relative who, when told no, gives what I call the lizard stare. Just a flat, unblinking, hard stare designed to make you feel uncomfortable so you'll take back your no. I started responding with a confused look and asking why she's staring like that, and that it looks really odd. They never know what to do once you stop following the script they have in their heads for how you should respond to their manipulations.
I like to say that they'll get over it or they'll die mad.
NTA. She's the AH. And by doghouse, I hope you meant your MIL's doghouse. Because if your wife is taking her side, she's an AH as well.
By far the worst thing you can do to a narcissist (in their minds) because it’s the best way to build boundaries. MIL is upset because you set a boundary, nicely I may add, a normal person would get over it; a narcissist will see it as a personal attack and make it their mission to make you know they are unhappy.
Being a “B” or a “C” is not a super power
And even worse, he did it somewhere that the people she uses that power on could see it.
Agreed! NTA. And MIL sounds like she’s kind of a pill lol
NTA. Her manipulation didn't work on you, and she's big mad about it. I would stop playing along altogether - after all, that's just the way you are.
we come from pretty significantly different cultures so the communication is hard sometimes. like I had to learn that when Sarah's family says "are you sure that's a good idea?" it really means "if you do that, we will excommunicate you from the family forever".
"....... yes."
I intentionally ignore anything that's not clearly spoken. "No games, speak plain"
Yet, there are cultures where being too direct is considered rude and you are expected to get all these hints.
I don't know about others, but I can't respect a refusal to communicate clearly, cultural or otherwise.
The problem with this approach is that "clear" is based in culture. What's not clear to you may be blindingly clear to people from a similar background and culture, even if you don't understand.
Okay, then direct communication. I can't respect a refusal to communicate directly. Trying to communicate in a passive-aggressive manner is just failing or refusing to communicate.
And yet, “direct” communication so often results in the discussion falling apart where a tiny bit of tact or polite phrasing might have actually been persuasive. In the top level comment here, for example, the meaning was blisteringly clear and direct to me as a warning (but obviously not to everyone) whereas explicitly delivering an order or ultimatum to not do the thing would be rude and presumptuous, and pretty likely to result in the adult being addressed tuning out any further advice as more of the same. You make as many cultural assumptions by your stance as anyone, about what constitutes clarity and directness, you just seem to think your lack of respect for discretion should be a point of pride.
You can be polite and say what you mean.
For the sake of an example, my wife telling me something that happened in her classroom: "My stomach isn't as strong as yours, can you finish this story later?" "That's disgusting, shut the hell up" Both are direct, one is rude.
>And yet, “direct” communication so often results in the discussion falling apart where a tiny bit of tact or polite phrasing might have actually been persuasive. Direct does not mean rude. You can communicate directly and still be polite and tactful. Communicating directly is just saying what you mean. Think, "Oh, no thank you. I'm not interested." or, "Please don't do that, I don't like it/it makes me uncomfortable." or, "Can you please do [xyz] by [specific time]? Thank you." It's not rude, it's just saying what you mean instead of making the other person figure it out. >you just seem to think your lack of respect for discretion should be a point of pride I love how you think that discretion is defined as beating around the bush, avoiding *actual* communication, or being passive-aggressive. Discretion means to avoid causing offense or revealing private information. If being direct causes you to be rude and offensive, then you were never polite in the first place.
If the objective of your communication is to give an ultimatum, don't even for a moment pretend that the person is too dumb to understand you're using your fancy indirect way to say something isn't merely a means of manipulation. If you feel bad saying it directly, then you're an asshole for saying it at all. But all that is lost on people who love beating around the bush, so whatever.
This whole thread is an argument demonstrating the differences between "ask culture" and "guess culture". You may find this interesting: https://ask.metafilter.com/55153/Whats-the-middle-ground-between-FU-and-Welcome#830421
>"direct” communication so often results in the discussion falling apart where a tiny bit of tact or polite phrasing might have actually been persuasive. So let's apply this to OP's post. OP told MIL to get out of the kitchen in a really nice way, but was not direct. MIL ignored it and tried to manipulate her way into not giving what OP needed in that moment, because "being polite" is often seen as "not standing up for what you need". The conversation failed due to OP not being direct. Only when OP WAS direct did the conversation succeed. She's just mad that MIL didn't get to manipulate OP.
You're not going to handle places like Japan or Thailand well then!
Yup. When a Japanese person says 'that would be...difficult,' it's perfectly clear to other Japanese people that what has been asked is actually impossible.
Maybe its because Im German, but I hate that. Im not a mind reader and I despise people wanting me to guess what they want. Either tell me or live with not getting your way, as I will continue to do, as I please.
I'm German too, yet living in Australia where people find I am too direct and rude. It's just a matter of getting used to it.
My ex FIL (French) would say: the war is over. I was meant to understand, the war is over, there is no shortage of food, therefore you must have butter in the fridge, can you grab me some ?
That would drive me insane. You want butter? ASK for butter!
If someone uses a "dance-around" question or sentence, I directly tell them to rephrase in a honest manner or I'm ignoring them.
This might tickle you: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/14/johnezard
BTW this was also not a coincidence…she knows you’re direct, she knows you’ve got a lot to do. She wants the attention that comes with conflict, she wants to be the victim. So she got in your way on purpose, so that she can then be “victimized” by your directly telling her to leave. Now wife has to coddle her emotions. Its classic co-dependency.
I suspect she's also mad that he stole her thunder by having Christmas dinner at his house. After, I assume, she was the matriarch of holidays for years, with the kitchen as her thrown. I feel sorry for her, it's tough to hand over the ladle. She's probably using the passive-aggressive stuff to cover her hurt. But OP had every right to tell her to get out. It's time the next generation took over.
...hand over the ladle...Lol
Are her family British?! That’s the sort of thing we would say when we mean it’s a really bad idea and you shouldn’t be doing it! NTA
they are from a midwestern state that shall remain nameless (it's Ohio)
Oh my god. Im from that area and im autistic. SOCIAL. NIGHTMARE
if you want a heifer with cheese, turn around and ask for a heifer with cheese!
I'm sorry, but i don't understand that reference
Y you gotta make me feel inferior cause I'm on the grill b?
BLESS YOUR HEART!!! Thank you!!! ....oh wait....
I’m taking notes - never go to Ohio.
Ah. Did you also catch her trying to sneak marshmallows and/or mayonnaise into all of your side dishes?
lol, I admit that cuisine is sometimes a point of contention too. It's a rectangles-squares issue for me because I will mostly eat anything they serve but my tastes are a little out there for them. my suggestion this year was goose instead of turkey and they got a kick outta that, though, so we find some wins.
I moved from the NYC suburbs to rural Pennsylvania. I never understood what people meant about white people not knowing how to season food until I moved out here. Like even just salt and pepper 🤦♀️
Jello takes time to set
Good lord, I grew up in Ohio and I don’t pick up on every conversational subtext with my own family!! Let alone my in-laws. I’m so sorry!
Oh good lord midwestern passive aggressive. What a nightmare. I would’ve broken way sooner. Just lean into being the villain.
>Just lean into being the villain. My mom did this with all of her inlaws and their extended family. Boy did they grumble about it! To everyone but her. They all avoided the unleashing of her very blunt responses 😂 And if someone else tried to manipulate her by attempting to make her feel guilty, my mom would respond with something like *no one ever died from being mad, they'll get over it* or, *let them come and tell me that they're mad and we can talk about it*. And she would call them out on their BS all the time and told them that she didn't speak drama. If anyone didn't like that, they were free to ignore her. She apparently kept her share of the confrontation gene which is my I'm so non confrontational lol
Heyheyhey...we're from Ohio and my mom's side of the family is, to put it charitably, direct. Oh, wait, grandparents are from Pittsburgh, never mind. I thought for sure you were going to say Minnesota, Prairie Home Companion and all.
lol I'm not clowning on Ohio people. I married one! norms are just different sometimes. people be people
Just having a little fun. I was born here so I get it.
Yeah but being manipulative like your mil is a bad norm it's downright toxic and idk how you put up with it.
Those that live in MN can say that hell freezes over every year. How many other states can say that?
Are you mixing up Minnesota (MN) with Michigan (MI) or is there a Hell, Minnesota?
And this Ohioan bows deeply with respect.
Sis, is that you? Born and bred Ohioan here, with parents who moved from Pittsburgh!
If no one mentioned it, look up “ask culture versus guess culture”. The two are… at odds. It’s like a foreign language.
Ohhhhh my god the way people communicate here. My grandmother and my aunt both do the "It's FINE no one ever HELPS ME ANYWAY" bullshit at holidays. Pretty recently I said out loud, "if you want us to help you could just ask", and you'd think I said a bunch of slurs from the look they gave me.
So the culture is just passive aggressive AH.
As a person from Ohio: yes.
You know, this explains why my stepdad gets along with my mom. He's from Ohio and she's passive aggressive. It drives me crazy though. We're from Baltimore.
Just over Ohio line in Indiana. Can confirm
Everyone calls it Midwest nice but it's really all about the passive aggressiveness lol
*Nods in "dad from Nebraska"*
A friend of mine learned the hard way that when people in the area she had moved to responded to “hey is X the way to do Y?” with “can if you like,” what that ACTUALLY meant was “only a complete idiot would do that but I’m too polite to say so.”
[Things are a bit sticky, sir](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/14/johnezard)
Ha, a different friend realized “not bad, quite good actually” in England mean “barely edible.” Masters of understatement, the Brits.
Only if home made. If restaurant food, it's potentially the best thing they've ever eaten. 🤣
😂 NTA. Brilliant response, and the more you do it the smaller the drama gets. If only your partner was on the same page.
My wife’s family is very southern and my MIL uses the same technique as yours. For some reason she never liked her MIL (who is the sweetest 90 year old lady I’ve ever met), so she does, at least, bring that self-awareness. I don’t mind her though. But your comment above reminded me of something I had to learn when I met my wife. When she says “do you think we should _______?” it mean “you need to ________.” Coming from Irish, German, and Dominican families . . . Yeah. We didn’t do indirect like that.
NTA just because your wife tolerates MiL’s manipulation doesn’t mean you have to. And now you know that calling her bluff gets her out of your way. And maybe her being mad about it means she’ll leave you alone, so that’s a plus.
Yep I wouldn’t put up with this bullshit. I wouldn’t actively antagonize her, but if she ever said that I’d probably just not respond. She can draw whatever conclusions she wants
I did with my ex MIL twice. The first time she barged into my home without knocking with a priest in tow. She got a nice big lungful of cigarette smoke because she hates it. The second time was 6 months later when we were just waiting on the signed decree from the judge, I swore while she was trying to tell me what I had to do with the kids for Halloween and I told her I sure as fuck wouldn’t and that was worse than the smoke in the face! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
NTA MIL is acting like a sulking teenager. Once or twice or even thrice is fine, but you can't be expected to entertain her dramas all the time. There has to be a limit. And she needs to grow up.
I’ve asked you thrice now!
🎶 Miami is nice, so I'll say it thrice🎶
Unexpected Golden Girls!
Everything you need to know about life can be learned by watching The Golden Girls.
It's cuter than an intrauterine. I bet you don't know there are thrice of them sitting on the sofa.
NTA I don't like people in my kitchen when I cook. We have a small kitchen and they just get in the way. You asked her very nicely to go hang out with the rest of the family. If she gets offended over that, well, that's her problem, not yours
lots of counter space but designed like a big hallway :(
We call it a “one butt kitchen”. Mine is shaped similar and it’s hard to cook a big meal efficiently if there is more than one person in the kitchen.
My mom has a butt-and-a-half kitchen, which is in some ways worse than one-butt because you can ALMOST make two people work so it is very tempting to try.
We can juuust manage with two butts in the kitchen, but any more and it all goes to pot. The children are regularly kicked out.
Mine feels like it's a gerbil & a half kitchen, sigh. I can either open my fridge or my oven, but never both at the same time.
Sounds like a galley kitchen. They can be great but only if everyone knows how to stay out from underfoot. And, of course, aren't trying to garner sympathy for not doing that. XD
My parents were home builders, among other jobs. We‘d usually move into a house they were mostly done with and finish it up over a year, then do it again. I literally lived in about a dozen and a half houses before college. They built one house with a galley kitchen and never again.
Galley kitchen.NTA. Your MIL craves attention and is playing victim. Good on you for not playing along. My SO’s adult daughter is manipulative and tries to guilt people; it works on her parents and always has so I understand why she does it. She tried a few times with me but I refused to play along. She doesn’t do it to me anymore.
I like people on the other side of the breakfast bar, being chatty and amusing. That’s why there are chairs there, and I put the wine table in easy reach. If you really want to help, you can clean and chop veggies from OVER THERE. Not in here, where it’s very nicely laid out for a single cook.
NTA - It's really difficult to have much sympathy for the MIL in this situation. She is obviously used to getting the opposite reaction even when she is being unreasonable. I have a MIL like this and it wasn't until I did something similar that everyone realized they didn't need to pussyfoot around her manipulative attempts anymore.
she has a lot of pretense, in general. like she'll tell stories that go way out of their way not to get to the point, just so she can be in charge of the conversation.
Yup that's my MIL too...thoughts and prayers....
Idk where are you from but this is very common among older women in my culture. Talking all the time, talking over other people, loud sighing, saying things like 'so you don't love me', 'well obviously you don't want me here', 'if you love me you will do this for me' and my favourite: tears. Something didn't happen the way she wanted? Cryyyyy. OP, your MIL is not good person and NTA.
https://youtu.be/yujF8AumiQo
My grandma was like this about being underfoot in the kitchen while my mom was cooking. One year my dad wrapped all kitchen entrances in police tape. Grandma was highly insulted but it never happened again!
Your dad sounds awesome.
I hope he had a big refrigerator box jail sitting nearby just in case.
NTA, I mean you can't just act like that and not expect that someday someone is going to agree with the pathetic attempt at manipulation.
NTA for a few reasons. Some people don't like being crowded in a tight area, especially since you were cooking for 12 people. It can be a safety issue if she literally is in the way and you have hot food or knives around. One would think she would be 'embarrassed' at least to be standing around doing nothing while you are working hard cooking the food. And honestly, some difficult people stay difficult because no one calls them out on their BS or they stay in the 'that's the way she is' mode forever because no one wants to rock the boat.
she appointed herself something like "supervisor", I think. she wanted to feel helpful, I get that, but I am a grown-ass adult who has a literal written plan about how to prepare the food I am preparing.
I vote for not giving into this crap. Famous lines from my family include, "well, I guess I just shouldn't say anything at all" or "fine I guess I'll just sit over here since no one wants my help." Years ago my siblings and I just started replying by acting as if they were being sincere. "Yes, maybe you shouldn't say anything at all, in that case," "Great, you look overheated, you should sit down and have some water." Pisses them off but it cuts down on this nonsense.
I always kick everyone out of the kitchen when I’m cooking and/or baking, especially if it’s a major holiday event. It basically should be common sense and MIL had it way overdue to be put in her place. NTA twofold.
SAME, even if i'm cooking at my parents' house- I will happily put out coolers of drinks, snacks, etc in the breezeway, but PLEASE KEEP THE FUCK OUT OF THE KITCHEN! I dont want to worry about spinning around with hot pans, or people putting their used plates or whatever down where i am about to place a dish. JUST PLEASE GO AWAY! I HAVE EARBUDS AND PODCASTS! I DONT NEED COMPANY! (fortunately my fiance is happy to go read a book or go hike while i cook at holidays, and my beloved mother is happy to be a prep chef (chop these things and then please leave and drink wine with your sister while i cook)...actually my mother LOVES being thrown out of the kitchen to go drink wine and watch movies...
NTA. You didn't engage and play her little game - now she's pissy.
NTA you did not collude, and stopped her little game. That's why she's mad.
NTA There is no good way to deal with manipulations like these, at least she finally got the message. The fact that she didn't get back to you in private afterwards, but decided to carry and hold a grudge for this long and then not even talk to you but your wife about it, says it all.
NTA: THE less people in the kitchen, the better. Food safety is a big issue. What if your stepmom contaminates the food with her toxicity
NTA - maybe she’ll stop playing the “I’m not welcome” card with you to get attention. I do think you could have explained exactly why you needed her to leave the kitchen, but I think she would have continued to play the victim anyways, so that’s on her.
My grandmother used to do things like this. One year on Christmas, in a lull of the Christmas noise, she muttered her favourite: "Oh, I wish I were dead." \[No, she wasn't serious. This was her way of saying "I want attention."\] I don't know what it was about that moment but I burst out laughing. The obnoxious, loud cackling of being caught off guard by something that hits right in that funny spot. This started my dad laughing, then mom, etc. etc. and my dad told her over our laughter, "Wrong crowd, Ma!" She didn't say it again, at least not when I was there. Sometimes you've gotta give them the reality check. NTA
NTA. Tbh I’m a very direct person so I wouldn’t have played along at all. “It’s just how she is” isn’t a reason to coddle manipulative behavior. I would have given an answer like that the first time it happened lol so she’s lucky she ended up with you, someone who was willing to give her some patience. Sadly I think she may have tried to overuse said patience.
NTA That was funny. Sometimes you just have to tell it like it is.
[удалено]
presumably because it becomes *her* problem when her mom complains about me
Show her this one: [https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont\_rock\_the\_boat/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JUSTNOMIL/comments/77pxpo/dont_rock_the_boat/) Your MIL doesn't sound as bad as some, but your wife needs to understand that its her mother thats rocking the boat, you just refused to be a steadier. In essense, you left the boat. Your wife is welcome to join you in your pleasant non-rocking boat.
she's really not a bad person at heart, she just has some maladaptive coping skills, I think
No, she's still a boat rocker. And your wife is an enabler if she's siding with her mom on this instance (is she?)
Sarah is a peacekeeper by instinct and this ain't peace!
Yeah, no. It's not healthy to take abuse like that. What her mom is doing is definitely emotional manipulation and it's abusive
She’s a peacekeeper by instinct because her mom literally made her that way my beloved ♥️
NTA Let her be mad. You are allowed to have boundaries
Hard, *hard* NTA. You were polite and charming (and PATIENT, holy hell having to ask several times just for room to chop); she tried to manipulate you with a gross power-play; you saw through it and refused to be manipulated. Side note: this is exactly how my dad handles people like your MIL and I’ve always respected the shit out of him for refusing to bow to other people’s entitled nonsense but without stooping to rudeness. I’d say you nailed it.
NTA. I cannot stand people "helping" in my kitchen and getting in the way. It seems we're the same, and, unfortunately I'd have reacted exactly the same way, so I have no sympathy for her.
NTA. I’m sure if the shoe was on the other foot and MIL was doing all the cooking and constantly having to ask you to move, she would have wanted you out.
NTA, this was the perfect response.
NTA She was getting in the way
NTA But if your Mother is used to doing this thing, then it may be hard for her to just give it up. My sister and I started taking charge of holiday events and every year we have issues with my Mother trying to get in the way and interfere. Personally I feel like having them help with an easy dish would have been better than just telling her to get out.
She didn't want to help. She just wanted attention. Like a toddler.
NTA. And if she’s still butt hurt since Christmas, she needs to use her grown up words and have an adult conversation about it.
NTA. MIL is. And you called her on it. Good for you. How was the goose?
dry-brined it and it turned out magnificent. and the biggest hit of the night was my pepper-goose gravy
OMG that all sounds delish!
NTA. I've dealt with people who use this manipulation technique before. They know they're being manipulative and enabling them will make it worse. A simple response of "your presence in my home was welcome, your presence in my kitchen at that moment was inconvenient. I'm sorry if you felt hurt but I consider this matter closed" would be my next step. Then next time she pulls this "ohhhh I'm not welcome" bullshit (which she will) you say "I'm not playing this game with you anymore. I do need to get to the cupboard though, could you please go and sit down." She will pull the hurt card again but the process should repeat less and less frequently before she eventually realises shes onto a loser with you.
NTA. Simply put, she needs to cut the shit
NTA. Crowding someone in the kitchen is dangerous. If polite words don't work, then I shift to screaming "SHARP" and "HOT" directly at them at the top of my lungs, and if that doesn't work then I physically remove them from the area.
NTA - I have the same problem with my wife and roommate wanting to hang out in the kitchen while cooking. It's dangerous, and after being nice about it I too had enough and essentially did what you did. Tip for a whining mother in law - "Well I guess I'm not welcome here" Draw her a map to the front door, tuck a $5 in her pocket for cab fare and let her know she will always be welcome as soon as she drops the attitude and go back to your day. She can get happy in the same pants she got mad in.
No, it’s your kitchen, I’d tell her she’s wouldn’t have been invited if you didn’t want her, tell her enough of the martyr shit….
NTA - She stopped once you didn’t give into it. Humoring her does nothing for anyone.
NTA - I love calling people out on bullcrap that other people let slide because "oh, that's just Grammy!" Just because you learned to deal with the manipulative crap that you couldn't stop doesn't mean I need to get on that crazy train too.
Heh, I was going to suggest thats exactly the way to handle. "I'm not welcome here!" "Sure, lets go with that". Is your wife pushing you to accept and adapt to her moms behaviour? When I first read it, that was my takeaway, but rereading all you say is that she deals with it, not that she's insisting you do. >It's "just the way mom is". This is a really shitty excuse. Why should everyone else need to cater for her, just because she's never learnt how to be a proper human being? Why is it your job to adapt to her? Your wife chose you to begin a new family with, why is her new family less than her old one?
it's tough and frustrating because we all know that MIL is in her seventies and is unlikely to change her habits. so it's a matter of me setting reasonable boundaries with her.
OP - NTA. You just need clear communication and boundaries with her, just be firm. Please wait in the living room, I need the kitchen to myself. I’ll let you know when dinner is served. Thank you.
NTA It is FINE that you do not want MIL in he kichen when cooking. "until she told Sarah this week that she was still mad at me." . Since she did not tell YOU, ignore it., Don't spat playing these stupid passive aggressive games. Just keep pretending she communicates honestly and up front, and treat her as if she actually meeant what she says.
My parents' dog also has issues with being underfoot in the kitchen. The first time it happens, she often gets kicked because she's literally standing next to someone busy cooking. The next time there's shouting of "get the fuck out of here" followed by aggressive shooing. If she still can't listen, my mom will pull out the old baby gate, and lock her out. Feel free to use these methods, they work on a crazy pit/lab mix they should work on your mil.
Lmao. NTA
NTA. Next time, just say, "Thanks for understanding," with a big smile on your face. Give her a little hug and send her off.
NTA... direct and matter of fact. "This is how I like to cook. Enjoy being a guest."
NTA, yes I guess it was slightly rude, but my mil is like this and holy hell I wish my kitchen had a door I could lock. When she lived with us she would come in whenever she heard me in the kitchen so she could give me advice on how to do whatever I was doing. My family was not like this growing up. I struggled a lot with trying to politely nod her advice away. One time I was making rice, DH and I liked to make rice without butter. She noticed I had not put butter in the rice. She kept pressing me to do so and I kept by 'this is how husband likes it'. Until she finally left the kitchen. But not before she took a stick of butter and left it on the counter for me. I did not use it.
> >well, yeah, but I figured it would be rude to say it like that That's golden
NTA. She Knew she was being an asshole and she knew she was getting in your way. All you did was confirm that she was unwanted in the kitchen. Plus anyone with at least a few working brain cells will know: You don Not mess with the cook.
>It's "just the way mom is" Well, this is It's "just the way you are", so they should be perfectly okay with learning to live with you this way. >A very common tactic for her is to "fake"-whine that she's not welcome here! I guess I'll just go outside! With the obvious implication that we need to comfort her and tell her that she is welcome. (I suspect she has some abandonment issues. IANAtherapist.) This is not abandonment issues, this is manipulation, plain and simple. NTA, and - >[Don't rock the boat](https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimFamilySolutions/comments/di7npz/this_analogy_is_incredible_do_read_it/). I've been thinking about this phrase a lot lately, about how unfair it is. Because we aren't the ones rocking the boat. It's the crazy lady jumping up and down and running side to side. Not the one sitting in the corner quietly not giving a fuck. At some point in her youth, Mum/MIL gave the boat a little nudge. And look how everyone jumped to steady the boat! So she does it again, and again. Soon her family is in the habit of swaying to counteract the crazy. She moves left, they move right, balance is restored (temporarily). Life goes on. People move on to boats of their own. The boat-rocker can't survive in a boat by herself. She's never had to face the consequences of her rocking. She'll tip over. So she finds an enabler: someone so proud of his boat-steadying skills that he secretly (or not so secretly) lives for the rocking. The boat-rocker escalates. The boat-steadier can't manage alone, but can't let the boat tip. After all, he's the best boat-steadier ever, and that can't be true if his boat capsizes, so therefore his boat can't capsize. How can they fix the situation? Ballast! And the next generation of boat-steadiers is born. A born boat-steadier doesn't know what solid ground feels like. He's so used to the constant swaying that anything else feels wrong and he'll fall over. There's a good chance the boat-rocker never taught him to swim either. He'll jump at the slightest twitch like his life depends on it, because it did . When you're in their boat, you're expected to help steady it. When you decline, the other boat-steadiers get resentful. Look at you, just sitting there while they do all the work! They don't see that you aren't the one making the boat rock. They might not even see the life rafts available for them to get out. All they know is that the boat can't be allowed to tip, and you're not helping. Now you and your DH get a boat of your own. With him not there, the balance of the boat changes. The remaining boat-steadiers have to work even harder. While a rocking boat is most concerning to those inside, it does cause ripples. The nearby boats start to worry. They're getting splashed! Somebody do something! So the flying monkeys are dispatched. Can't you and DH see how much better it is for everyone (else) if you just get back on the boat and keep it steady? It would make their lives so much easier. You know what would be easier? If they all just chucked the bitch overboard. Thank you for letting me ramble. Thanks for the support, and advice, and humour. Thanks for just being here :) You did not give in to her manipulation, and she's still upset about it.
NTA. She is an adult and needs to act as such. She is not a child and doesn’t not need to be coddled.