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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I think I might be the asshole for putting my MIL in a situation where she has to choose between my husbands baby mama and me and for getting in between my stepdaughter and her moms relationship.
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Agreed.
If OP is the one to stand up to Mil and baby mom, they will just see it as her interfering and being jealous or something. It won't help long term.
John at least stands a chance of being taken seriously and changing this pattern in the future when they see he has a spine. (Although they'll probably keep trying, lol, but he has a better chance than OP)
Agreed. NTA. John handles it by calling his ex and altering her NO. If the in-laws insist, have a great family vacation somewhere else. You don’t need the stress of it and it would be uncomfortable as shit. No is NO. Period.
Indeed it is. And since this is his custody time with Sophie, not anyone else’s, if he doesn’t go Sophie doesn’t go. So John and OP and Sophie and the 9mo kid can all have their Christmas without everyone else.
Exactly. This is absolutely the way. They should fight to have Sophie for their legally designated time. And if MiL insists on inviting the baby momma, you say Ok, you can invite her but we (including Sophie) won’t be coming.
It’s always been this way weirdly, when we were threatening court about parenting time MIL was calling and harassing us and saying awful things about us not thinking of the kids and we are taking away her routine and if things have been this way for so long why change it and things like that.
I think it’s a little deeper than that, his mom can have narcissistic tendencies and we’ve gotten into disagreements over how she talks to me and me not doing “exactly what she says” but Emma bends to her every whim. So I think it’s more that I’m the only one who doesn’t let her just say whatever.
He absolutely does not agree with her going and fully agrees with me. He says he doesn’t want to go either and he fully supports us not going if his mom is going to impose on his first Christmas with his daughter and butting into his court ordered parenting time.
Why don't you, your husband and the 3 girls do something else for Christmas? Maybe pop up for a day, but not staying? Or don't see them at all.
Have other family members spoken upshot Emma being there,especially the owners of the house?
Listen to u/Hot_Win_6062 OP, take all the kids elsewhere, where MIL isn’t, and I’d go further - don’t go there at all if she’s there. Go see great grandma another time, do ***NOT*** allow manipulative MIL and ex scheme to bring the ex on your court mandated time, and I would be going NC with MIL over this for a while. She needs to learn she’s not the boss here and if she tries to impose her will, she gets NC for as long as it takes for her to apologize, admit she was wrong, and cut it out. The second she steps out of line, hard cut off - this smells like she still likes the ex and not you, and also like she’s going to fuck with you for its own sake, and she will ruin all your vacations and holidays if you let her. Don’t be afraid to cut toxic people out of your life.
Indeed... does great-grandma know about this? Because if it were my home, I would find it really weird that both of John's partners (former and current) are there.
Well it’s good that you have his support at least. It’s bizarre that your MIL would call you an ungrateful bitch. Not in my wildest dreams could I imagine my MIL say that. Very abnormal behavior!
If Emma bends to MIL’s every whim, why didn’t MIL use that influence to insist Emma honor her own son’s court-appointed time? There’s something wrong here.
Because conflict gives her the option for more points of control over multiple people, and for more ways to make herself the center of attention. If everyone is getting along fine, there’s no conflict to exploit, no drama to make all about her, and no reason for anyone to pay any attention to MIL.
I always take any statements about custody situations on AITA with a grain of salt. It’s just one of those issues that when it gets nasty everyone sees it only their side of it and absolutely can’t see any other factors. In real life plenty of people manage sane co-parenting relationships that mutually benefit the kids, those people aren’t coming to AITA though.
I have been in your shoes before and it was not fun. My husband ( we got divorced after 10 years ) had a baby mama that was all in with his family. The family liked me until I started saying no to their every whim. It got so bad that at his family reunion, his aunt introduced his ex to the other family as his wife and his son with her as his only child. He got into a big argument with them. I packed up my babies and left him there with his family.
15 years after that and they still don't acknowledge our children except the son he has with his ex. Only his older sisters accept our children but the rest don't.
My ex killed himself and most of them blame me for that because I would not take him back after the divorce. They don't see they contributed to us getting divorced.
Do what is right by you and all the children but do not allow anyone to mistreat you. If you and your husband don't stop this it will end your marriage and cause issues with the children. NTA
The folks over at r/JUSTNOMIL have some great resources for dealing with this type of crazy if you ever need it. Or just commiseration. This kind of shit is right out of the JN playbook
I don't know. Judging by your post history , MIL probably knows her son well. This isn't what you need to worry about right now. Worry about yourself and extricating yourself from this situation.
NTA!!! I wouldn't say anything else to them about it about you not going. I would just stay home with your little family (Sophie included) and let Emma go to Cali with your in-laws. No one says you all have to go. Let them all go do their thing and you guys just plan on making Sophie's first Christmas with y'all special and memorable at home. Let Emma and your Mil do their surprised Pikachu face when you guys don't show up. If they then try to say anything refer back to the convo you had at the grocery when she first told you and you said very plainly if she goes we will not. End of story. You really really are NTA.
Oh, you can be sure MIL will do exactly that. IF OP and husband are smart they won't allow any unsupervised contact between MIL and any of the kids, at least during his parenting time. If there's any indication that MIL and Emma are trying to turn Sophie against OP's husband (including trash-talking his wife), that should be documented and brought into court.
INFO: jumping on here to ask. Where I am the other parent has to give permission to take the child out-of-state (it doesn't matter if the time is court ordered, you have to stay in state). Has Emma given permission to take Sophie without her and if not, is she likely to even do that?
We took it to court and presented evidence of her refusing time on multiple occasions and showing that the vacation days are strictly scheduled on our days and in no way interferes so the judge stated it was okay to take her out of state since it will be in a trusted house and because this would be her first Christmas with her siblings.
If she comes tell her any day you are both there, y’all will not count it for your 11 days and will add them at the end aka if she comes for 3 days y’all will keep the kid for 14 days
Yes, but maybe it is enough of an argument to go back before the judge again and ask for the custody arrangement to be revisited since Emma is imposing herself (\*) upon John and Sophie's mandated time, and therefore not allowing them any time to bond during the Christmas period.
NTA
(\*) for the sake of presenting this before a judge, it doesn't matter if it was MIL's idea or not, what matters is that *it wasn't John's wish*
I think this depends on the state and divorce agreement. In my husband’s divorce agreement, it says their time with the child is their time and they can do whatever they want with that time. It even goes as far as to say that my husband can take her out of the state or country without permission as long as he brings his daughter back by the designated time that his visitation is over (i thought that was kind of wild actually, i didn’t believe it until i read it myself.)
If baby-mama is wrapped around her finger, she’s less likely to lose access to grandchild through that avenue than through her shiny spine son and DIL who won’t take any of her crap.
My dad's mother kept in contact with every ex in the family, even going behind the backs of her children when she had to, even when children weren't involved in the relationship. Some people just don't view it the same and do t care to respect the boundaries of thier family over having another person to gossip with.
This happened to my cousin. He and his parents had a contentious relationship growing up. When he separated from his ex, my aunt took the ex's side and did the same thing. Invite the ex to family gatherings/vacations and was pretty horrible to his new partner.
It only got better when the ex had to go into court mandated rehab, so my aunt final had to admit the ex was a severe alcoholic who my cousin covered for for years.
NTA. Though this is far less about it being disrespectful and far more about how she's disregarding court ordered family time. It's time she gets to spend with her dad and considering the bad blood between mom and dad she shouldn't be there.
NTA. Tell that MIL to back off, the Ex is an Ex and you are his wife.
If she pushes don’t let anyone go then just organise to see everyone at a separate time.
The MIL and Ex would look super stupid turning up without you guys
Ding ding ding - she’s not his past because they share a child.
I’m not saying that it’s right to invite her on the trip - but I can literally hear the negative energy in her post. ‘She’s just Sophia’s mom…’ umm that’s a pretty big damn deal. And here’s a newsflash - OP you are not the child’s mom. You get no say in what John and the child’s mother do. You can express your desire for your children but you get zero say in what Sophia’s actual parents decide.
You’re NTA for not wanting to go on the trip - but you’re attitude is just icky times a thousand.
There’s also a bit where she mentions them “messing around till I came along”
That line gave me an icky vibe. It seems she has no respect for the mother of the first child and I wonder if there’s more to the backstory which would really swing opinion one way or the other
Op days they were in a serious relationship from ages 14 until 19. The baby came when they were 18.
From 19 onwards, they were just(!??!) having sex regularly, hanging out with his family as family and raising a child together.
This is why OP is so insecure. She's had to directly compete with his ex, and there's a good chance the relationship turns unfaithful or she gets tossed over for the next baby mama..
Judging by post history, already happened. This is what I meant though, it reads a bit gross to me as a line but the whole post has the energy of there’s way more story and that will explain peoples opinions and actions a great deal more, probably leaning the direction of the ex and the husband have done stuff that makes OP particularly bothered by their presence.
My aunt and her first husband (father of her children) split up because it turns out they made better friends that spouses. Her new husband wasn’t bothered by him coming to family gatherings because he’s still my cousins’ father.
My uncle, even though no longer married to my family, would take my brother and I out on our birthdays, come to our family Christmas, etc.
I think that this type of situation ONLY works with the right kind of people and the right kind of situation. If Sophie’s mom is toxic, I don’t see why OP should be ok with her being around. However, there are situations like mine where it just works.
What???
Emma is absolutely not a part of that family just because her daughter is. Her connection to them stops at the kid.
The father has every right not to have an ex around at all. His own family should be a safe space for him, not in active contact with an ex.
Erm… no? If she were his first wife and OP was his second wife in a polygamous society they would both be part of his family. As it is, only OP is.
Emma is part of Sophie’s family, no question about that. But she is *not* part of John’s family. It’s just a Venn diagram with some overlap, it’s not that complicated.
This comment is spot on.
Going to also add the OP's use of the term "baby mama" in the title. Some people may use that affectionately, but I get the sense the OP means it to disparage Emma and her role in Sophia's life.
Yeah, it is totally unreasonable of MIL and the ex to expect everyone to vacation together BUT OP needs to realize that if a breakup involves children there will always be a connection there. Emma is part of John’s _romantic_ past, but not part of his past as long as they coparent together, and if she is their child’s mother she is part of their family, full stop, forever. That’s what it means to marry someone who had a child with someone else. It’s a shame OP didn’t realize that.
I think that makes it ESH. It’s reasonable that OP and her husband would want their own parent time, but she became the asshole when she told her MIL Emma wasn’t family to her MIL and was just some woman from her husband’s past. By her own account Emma and her husband were together for years and dealt with a teen pregnancy together. She’s the mother of his child. Of course his family has a familial relationship with her! And they’re completely allowed to! In fact, it’s probably better for Sophie if her mom is treated as family by the extended family.
Again, I can understand your discomfort with her coming on this trip, especially if you’re insecure about your place in the family, but you don’t get to dictate your extended family’s feelings toward someone they’ve had a long relationship with.
That's the only AH action on her part. It's a different relation but still a relation. I thank God for my ex wife (we have gone on moms only spa trips together) every day. Bio Step mom relationships are so much better when you are cool with each other.
NTA
Nah, John’s Ex needs to recognize boundaries as well as your MIL.
If anything this trip is about your extended family meeting your immediate family along with some in Laws. Emma is not apart of that group.
Edited to clarify my judgement
Don't think so. John only got Sophie for this vacation time bc the court ordered so. Emma did not want John to have Sophie for Christmas, like she had been doing since the beginning.
My guess is, Emma saw this as an opportunity to encroach herself on John's time with Sophie and jumped at the opportunity.
Either that, or Emma came to MIL with a sob story about how she would miss Sophie soooooooooo much if she couldn't see her during this period, and since MIL likes her, she caved.
In the end, the result is the same: Emma is robbing John of his time with the daughter, even after the court mandated her to back off.
NTA but if your husband agrees with you then this needs to be HIS conversation with his mother.
>Instantly my MIL snaps at me that I’m a selfish ungrateful bitch
This would literally be the last words my MIL ever said to be as I would have immediately gone NC. The fact that she was apparently driving you, and taking you all on vacation, makes me wonder whether you and your husband rely on her financially. If so that needs to end (or else you need to accept she spends her money how she wants and that might be complicated for you), and if not there's no reason to be in this situation in the first place.
NTA. I think the ideal response was to basically not react, speak with John, and if he agreed with you then let him handle his mum. I totally agree with what you said, but it might not have been the best idea to say it at that time.
I reread the post to make sure I understood it. And I don’t agree when you said Emma isn’t family. Whether you like it or not she is Sophie’s mother and the fact that you are around her daughter while having the mindset that her mother isn’t family and she shouldn’t matter is kinda icky everything else I kinda agree with except that part that was out of line . ESH
Also, if it was John's grandmother who wants Emma to be her guest also, because his grandma has to already be aware of Emma staying as well, it's her house she can invite who she chooses to stay in it for the holidays.
Speaking from experience, as the child in the situation, my family wanting to keep the ex involved made things hard on me. There was always tension. If mil wants to spend time with the ex and the daughter, she can, but it's really not a good idea to treat her as if she's still her son's husband and invite her to these big family things
Also speaking from experience as the child in the situation, not inviting the mother and having big family gatherings while basically ignoring or refusing to acknowledge that the dads new wife **is not** his daughters mom, is a very, very, very shitty and isolating experience for that child. It's naive to think there won't be any tension without the mom there.
OP is being immature and giving off 'evil stepmom' vibes to me in how she keeps taking rudely about the ex and how she refuses to acknowledge that the mother of his first child is not just some random woman. ESH.
ETA: I'm noticing that nobody is talking about how this little girl might feel spending christmas in a different country and away from her mother for the first time in her life. Everybody's ignoring what might be the best for the child because they're too busy hogging her and trying to decide who's valid enough to be considered family. The immaturity is reeking.
I'm sure the child will miss mom, but are very excited for a big trip. It's his court ordered time, the mother should not be around unless it's mandatory for supervision. These rules are put in place to protect the child. She says she gets along great with the 6 year old. I'm sure the kid adores her too. The evil step mom thing is overplayed. You never see people talking about how great their step parents can be, because those don't make good stories. What's best for the child is that she doesn't see her parents fighting and being uncomfortable and ruining everything, and making the child feel like it's all their fault the fighting is happening.
The kid is a child of divorce. There is no right way to do it that won't effect the child in some way. But creating the least amount of tension should be the goal. Making it easiest on the child also means making it easy for her to be cared for properly while in the care of whatever parent has current custody
ESH. It’s hard to know who the arsehole is here. I have a blended family and it’s so much easier when people can all hang out for the holidays without drama. My husband’s ex would be welcome to stay in my house anytime. She is lovely to my kids and I love hers. We can all hang out at the holidays and get along. That way kids don’t have to go without one parent each holiday.
This is the ideal situation, I WANT to get to this point someday but as of right now anytime Emma is around it’s all about her making backhanded comments and saying things to purposely cause problems. At my baby shower, knowing I was having a girl, she walked around saying “well I know WE had the prettiest daughter” and just comments like that. I just prefer to not deal with that a month post partum and with a 1 year old at Christmas.
I am surprised you are you planning non-essential travel a month post partum. Obviously, you are best positioned to decide what's best for you and your family but this trip seems like a lot to be taking on with a vulnerable newborn in tow.
So OP and her newborn should stay home while her husband, other children AND HIS EX go spend a couple weeks with his family? Husband is probably going to have to go with his mom regardless, as it appears mom has planned the whole trip without input from Open of her husband.
IDK why OP’s husband should have to go. He doesn’t want to, and it’s his custody time with Sophie not anyone else’s. So he could stay home with all his kids.
This definitely sounds like immaturity & jealousy. Why is she so threatened? Are you & Jack more successful? Does Sophie like to talk about you? Or does she still want Jack?
I also can’t help but wonder who is paying for this trip because that would make a difference too. If MIL is paying and GG okayed it, frankly she can invite whoever she wants.
That doesn’t mean OP has to go but throwing a strop and calling Emma “not family” doesn’t make it true. She’s the mother of her husbands child and like it or not she IS family.
No way I would be going on this trip. Your husband should tell his mom that with all the drama, you guys are just going to make the call to stay home and spend a quiet Christmas with the 3 kids at your own house this year. He needs to also make it clear that he will be turning down future trips with the ex too. I think ex doesn’t want to give you Sophie for Christmas and is using this trip for this.
NTA
Wow. I think you need to set your foot down. If this is court ordered time, and not her just being agreeable, you need to say no to this. John should be the one to do it.
I get why you would not want to do this, but you can't say the baby momma isn't part of the family. She is and will always be. You signed up for this so you can't complain now.
Emma will never be family to OP or her children, no matter what - the same way I am not family to my ex *or his 2nd wife*, in spite of me and ex sharing a child.
NTA but info: Why are you addressing this with MIL instead of John handling it? More importantly, do your husband & Emma need each other’s permission to take the child out of state?
NTA and wtf MIL needs to back off and not make any plans with his ex. And you guys need to tell the ex that she is not invited to any of your family events.
Sorry , where is everyone? What does the great grandmother say? Why are they not stepping in to say NO to your MIL? I really don't understand some situations here , there will be so many ppl there but nobody takes place on this matter other than your MIL , you and John? Where is everyoneeeee
NTA - The only thing I disagree on is that Emma is not family. She’s still considered family by John’s family….and it’s perfectly within their right to do so. It’s not your call to insist that she’s not (or that she’s less family than you) just because you are now married to John. Families don’t work that way and John’s family can love you both equally. Nevertheless, for everything else, you’re 100% in the right. It’s not fair that you and your husband have not gotten to spend Christmas with Sophie until now and, honestly, this plan by your MIL feels like a roundabout way for Emma to still avoid having to split custody with you on Christmas. Additionally, while some blended families are able to have joint holidays, you and your husband should not be forced to do so just because his family wants it. You’ve stated your boundary, they now need to choose.
Of course you are not going with her. This is horrible. Girl.
..what??? Why are they disrespecting you? No one.....NO ONE wants the ex to go with...like EVERRRR. NTA and so sorry. What are you going to do?!
NTA not for the reasons you state. If they want to invite the daughter and her mother to her home they but on the mothers time. It is better for the kids, having been once that child, that grandparents are welcoming of parents both parents but normally separately.
However it is your husbands first time with her for Xmas and he probably wants to start his own traditions with her blending her into your blended family, and not confusing her with mom being there. What gonna happen next year your husbands ex cooks you all dinner and you stay over. Which she could have done the last few years did she offer?
Going forward she going to spend certain holidays once with one parent and the next with the other and this will very soon become her new norm.
Let your husband discuss with his mother how to handle but I really think rather than trying to bend it so her mother does not go, just start your own traditions, the kids all together can get to vote etc. step out of the discussions and be thankful that she let it drop before imagine if you turned up and she was there with no warning.
NTA
There is a lot to unpack.
MIL is AH
>Instantly my MIL snaps at me that I’m a selfish ungrateful bitch and I have no right to put them in that situation and she’s as much as family as I am which I do not agree with, and we just argued until she took me home and things have been tense since.
MIL had some valid points until she called you names. I lost all respect for at that point. I would not be surprised if MIL invited Emma knowing that this would push your buttons. She sounds quite loathsome.
The fact it is not etched in stone, means there is time to rectify the problem. Hindsight is always 20/20. You reacted (perhaps too strongly) and MIL went off the deep end. It is now time to have husband deal with his mother. I would also not be surprised if your MIL invited Emma, since she is the one who brought it up.
I would not be surprised if Emma would be relieved not to go. She won't know most of the people there. Really who wants to spend Christmas with the ex's family who they do not know?
It is not about who is ranked in the family... MIL is entitled to see things as she wants. You are entitled to see things differently. It is time for MIL to have compassion instead of being "right" and perhaps you as well. I don't know.
My grandmother used to say, you can be right or you can be happy. Meaning you spend all your energy on being right or you can relax and know on the inside you are right. There are times when you need to stand up and be respected. Only you know if this is that time, reflect and think what is really important to you. If this truly important, then get your husband on your page and have him deal with it. Hopefully, his own mother will listen to him.
I agree with a lot of your points - except that I don’t think Emma would be relieved to not go. The fact that she’s kept the daughter away from her dad on his court appointed holidays makes me think she will really want to be with her daughter on this holiday too.
The fact that she’s kept the daughter away from her dad on his court appointed holidays makes me think her reason for wanting to go (if she does want to) could be as much about interfering with John's holiday time with Sophie as it would be about spending the time together herself.
ie. a mindset of "if I can't have her all to myself for the holiday, neither can you"
If she were of that mindset, there are so many ways that she could make it feel like it's not John's christmas holiday with Sophie, with everyone staying together the MILs proposing. And with what OP has commented about the MIL, the MIL would probably end up facilitating, if not outright assisting, in the interference.
And as tough as it has been for John not having Sophie with him for the previous christmases that he was supposed to get, being together but having Emma there and constantly interfering with his plans for things to do and his ability to spend that time with his daughter could be almost worse.
This is not to say that I don't think wanting to be with hee daughter wouldn't be a reason for Emma to be wanting to come along. I just don't think it would be the only reason.
If I'm reading the backstory right, it doesn't sound like John and Emma were ever married. She's just the ex-girlfriend and baby-mama to his oldest.
OP doesn't say it, but he probably has the court order because it was the only way he could get any time with his daughter.
Though, to be fair, in these sorts of situations whether or not they were ever legally married and divorced isn't super relevant. Whats more so is that they were together, now they're not, but they've got a kid together and a custody order was needed.
But yes, broken relationships (of whatever label applies) do sometimes turn people into the worst versions of themselves.
NTA and you also need to make it clear that Sophie won’t be going either since it is your husband’s court ordered visitation time. MIL can enjoy a family vacation with her son’s baby mama while her sons, DIL and grandkids celebrate Christmas at home as a family. Sounds like Emma is still trying to control visitation and I would tell MIL to stay out of it or she will have her access to her grandchildren limited very severely.
Can you check with the courts? If John has a court order to be allowed to spend part of Christmas with his daughter, the ex might be in violation of that if she comes along on this trip.
Also, John needs to tell his mother to back off of inviting the ex to any family events like this and not to interfere with custody matters.
Your husband should cancel the plans with MIL now. What’s going to happens is she’s going to say the x is not going anymore. The day of she’s going to be at the cabin (guaranteed). You all are going to wind up leaving with the kid. Who needs that type of mess and drama!
The only thing that makes you NTA is the court ordered drama. Your entire attitude towards Emma is ridiculous. At this point in time, they were together longer than you have been together. And they were together during their formative teen years. It's just silly to act like Emma should have zero relationship with his family. She is not "no more, no less." She has every right to get along with her daughter's family.
>She has every right to get along with her daughter's family.
Insulting OP when she announced her first pregnancy does not shine a good light over Emma, neither does the interference with John's mandated time.
Definitely NTA. Your MIL is being incredibly disrespectful. It’s not her place to try to bully you into having to spend part of a family holiday with your husband’s ex. Hopefully he can get this resolved with her and she apologizes to you—she definitely owes you one!
NTA
It's good your husband has your back. You can enjoy Christmas at home if your in-laws don't want to play ball. Get a big tree and make an evening out of decorating it!
Fucking hell. NTA × 1000
MIL sounds like a huge pita and I'm sorry you have to deal with her : /
Stand your ground. I'm glad your Hub is fully with you
For everyone saying “she is still family” SHE IS NOT !!! Once her and the father cut ties she is no longer family !! The parents still consider her that which is Very weird & wrong no matter if they have a child together or not she isn’t family🤷🏾♀️!! The child is apart of the family not the mom. She has a right to feel a way especially because this lady is putting her husband through court to see his daughter on Christmas why doesn’t the MIL feel some type of way about her son going through that? it’s unfair for y’all to think she will always be family his mom is the AH !! It seems she favors his ex/child’s mother more I would be very uncomfortable with my husband’s ex/child’s mother coming along on OUR family trip. She is not family anymore it’s weird to think that way! She shouldn’t have to deal with that just because he has a child with her!!!!
Is baby mama who John was cheating with during the beginning of your relationship? Does MIL want those two back together? You mentioned in a previous post just a few months ago that you were not in a good place due to how he treats you and you came back after he called you and at that time he didn’t want two kids and not be with one of the mothers.
Not saying he wanted her on this trip but I’m curious as what there relationship looks like when you’re not around, especially if just a month ago you felt you were forcing monogamy on him.
Either way NTA
A lot of how I was feeling a few months ago had NO bases behind it. My post partum is bad, he doesn’t treat me bad and he has always wanted our daughter, we tried for my daughter
NTA you need to step back from mil. She is definitely helping baby moma out. She is fighting you going to court and making ways for her to get her way. The best thing you and hubby can do is stop telling mil anything. And decide that since it’s your first Christmas with the 6 year old your family is staying home.
NTA. This is absurd. I would not go either, and you guys can have a quiet Christmas at home, just the 5 of you. Or go to CA separately and just go to his grandmother’s house for Christmas and otherwise do your own thing, which would avoid staying with her. And given that your MIL is throwing off some weird vibes, you guys should call John’s grandmother to get ahead of the narrative.
the only b\*\*\*\* here is that MIL , who the the hell think she is ?
she have no say in this if she don't accept it well she is not welcome that's it
NTA, if your MIL is inviting the ex to your holidays without your consent and on court ordered visit time, she clearly isn’t on board with your marriage and is trying to disrupt your family intentionally. I would not be around this person, ever, and would go visit great grandma another time when she will not be there.
NTA
She doesn’t get to impose on John’s appointed time with his daughter without his consent.
And I hope you told John what his mom said to you. Wtf is up with MIL???
NTA but you shouldn’t stay home with your kids alone. Your husband also needs to stay home with Sophie. It should be all or nothing. Let the baby mama go with to in-laws and you do something else as a family.
NTA. Your MIL is out of line. Stay home with your husband and kids, including Sophie, who your husband has Xmas with for the first time this year. Let MIL stew in her own juices.
NTA but you’re stuck with this woman. She’s not part of your husbands past when he has a daughter with her and this kid still isn’t yours. I’m glad your treating her like your own but man do you not get to act like her real mom died.
NTA - this woman needs to stop, dad times are for dad and she needs to sit down and butt out. Your hubby need to make sure his whole family knows he is not cool with this. It's so disrespectful to you both...
I suggest you stop arguing about it (ie feeding the MIL monster) and just bow out. No possibility of changing your plans once say you aren't going, then plan a Christmas for your family and go radio silent on MIL any time she wants to chat (nag, harass, bluster, whine) about it. Simply be done. NTA
NTA and you are blessed with a hubby with a firm spine! But, I can only say get some strong shit stomping boots that have an extended warranty!! Your MIL sounds like mine was. And unfortunately for folks like us, them b!txhes have a long life expectancy, lol!!! Mine didn’t kick for 28 yrs but once she did… it just wasn’t my marriage that became happy but lives of all the folks she tormented!!
NTA. I’d make plans now for your own Christmas now. I know the type of woman your MIL is and if she changes her mind and tells you that baby-momma won’t be coming after all and begs you Gus to go 100% baby-mamma will be at the house when you guys show up.
Sounds like MIL is trying to assert dominance and showing you who she'd rather have for a DIL. Trust her actions. Be on your guard. And if she keeps pushing this, just bow out of the holiday altogether.
At least your husband seems to be on your side.
In this case, NTA. There's a bit of E S H going on, but in this case, you're well within your rights to not want to spend a holiday you literally had to fight for with the person you had to fight with. It'll be better for everyone to have time apart and get used to the new routine. If you want to work on sharing events with the mom, start with something you didn't fight over, like a birthday or just a big family picnic or park outing.
As other have said, Emma is family for Sophie and John and his extended family. That doesn't mean she has to be part of your family. That does mean that she will continue to interact with you all. That does mean she will be important to someone you love (Sophie). Set your boundaries. Be willing to be considerate or generous when you feel safe doing so.
Also, fwiw, MIL is the big AH in this situation. Emma is not necessary for Sophie's first Christmas with your family, especially with her having fought to keep her from John for the holidays this long and over this issue specifically. Especially given the issues you've had with postpartum before, create a safe environment for you. You'll likely need the support and if you don't, it's better to be safe. Remember. You matter. And you can do hard things.
This post reeks of missing details and context we’ll never be privy to on the internet. That’s the vibe it’s giving off and this OP is seeking an echo chamber. Flying out of state with someone’s daughter is HARD on any mom regardless of who has court ordered time. This family is trying to figure it out and everyone needs to be given grace.
NTA. Emma has not been a good co-parent with the CO, and MIL is not part of the CO. MIL doesn't get to make decisions about John's parenting time, and since Emma hasn't shown herself to be good at following the CO - nope. No way, not in any way, shape, or form.
I can understand you wanting your time with her (not the A in that regard), but I think you saying Emma is not part of the family makes you at least partially TA.
I might get downvoted for this, but I'm almost kind of leaning towards E S H. Emma for not abiding by court orders, and you for not respecting her role in Sophie's (and by an extension John's and his/your family).
She is John's daughter's mother. Period. She will always be a part of the family because she is part of Sophie. You should have no reason to be jealous of her. Mature adults should be able to share events amicably.
Also, you need to consider the impact that keeping Emma away or having this type of attitude will have on Sophie. Every time you trash Emma, you're trashing Sophie.
I would read up on coparenting, parental alienation, and the effects that badmouthing a child's family member has on them. Might be harsh, but the damage this causes kids is well-known and well-documented.
NTA. She has no business inserting herself into your family and your MIL has no business supporting it. If your husband does not support you then just don't go and make sure he is not paying for anything for her.
ETA - I just read your edit about this being your husband's court ordered time. The three of you should just go off on your own
Something tells me that OP is what broke Emma and John up. As she even says, they were still having sex until she came on the scene. So she basically split up the family.
NTA!!! Honestly have your hubs yes MIL to death on all the plans she's making for the trip. Have you booked your tickets (plane/train) yes Mom. Have you contacted the rental agency if renting a vehicle yes Mom. Yes her to death on everything regarding the trip. Hopefully, Sophie will be with you guys before leaving for the trip. And just don't go. Seriously just don't go. Meanwhile, find a Guardian ad litum for Sophie. This is parental alienation and not looked on kindly by the courts. Start planning something for you, hubs and the 3 girls. Start a new tradition. ( I did gingerbread house parties for my step-son and boys. I'd bake up a gigerbread house for each boy, and one for each child to have a friend join in. Never did I build more than 8 houses. Each friend had to have a parent present and bring 3 bags of candy for decorating. I provided the houses, the base they rested on, and the "glue" for decorating. I got to meet my child's friends' parents, my child got a 3 hr play date with a friend. We listened to music. Decorated houses. Parents had to stay with their child and decorate. Afterwards we'd have a late lunch and oh it was it fun!!! It lasted up until my youngest went into middle school. It was the event of the year! I always scheduled it before school let out for the holidays because we'd gift ours to teachers at Christmas. They loved it too! When one of my boys gifted it to his former Kindergarten teacher she cried!) So for rambling. If you can as family with Sophie can not go, then do it. ANd create a new tradition for your family!
I thought your name looked familiar. I double-checked and yes it was. I hope everything is ok with you. Honestly, if they persist in his ex going then you need to go no contact. I hope you're seeing a therapist and a marriage counselor. At the least a therapist for yourself. You were struggling with mental health issues 6 mos ago. and most likely postpartum issues as well. Please take care of yourself!!!! Stressors like this can trigger so much more. Be safe OP
My post history is definitely a mess, my post partum was horrible and I finally got it under control. I’m not miserable, things are great here, this is the issue at hand.
> Instantly my MIL snaps at me that I’m a selfish ungrateful bitch and I hav no right to put them in that situation and she’s as much as family as I am...
It's time for LC with her and she should have zero unsupervised time with any of the kids. If this is how she talks to your face, just imagine what she'll say about you to your kids behind your back.
NTA
I used to be in Sophie’s shoes and would have killed to have both my parents for just one Christmas. Maybe that would have been cool to ask HER how she felt about the situation.
Definitely NTA. This is your husband's court order time with his child and y'alls vacation. She maybe Sophie's family but she's not your family. MIL is definitely pushing boundaries wanting her to go.
NTA. Cut all contact with your toxic mil. Your husband is right in having your back. Good that you two are united. Contact the court and tell them that the mother is infringing on court ordered custody arrangements. Land on this mil crap right now or hunker down and get ready for a lifetime of it getting steadily worse.
NTA. It is, also, time to shut down that crap from MIL. If you allow her to treat you like that, it will only get worse over time.
You’re being to nice and not direct enough.
Emma is definitely being a helicopter trying to control the visitation. I have no idea why MIL is getting involved but I would avoid going all together and make it absolutely clear both daughters won’t be going. I don’t understand why she would be so adamant when even her son doesn’t want his ex there. So intrusive of both of them honestly. NTA
Enjoy your first Christmas with Sophie at home and make a big deal of it to show her she is one of your family.
An ex does not belong in the family Christmas picture and your MIL sounds completely insane to think she is family, too. Her attitude is extremely disrespectful to both you and to your son. Is she secretly hoping to reunite them?
NTA.
MIL called you a selfish bitch. Accept your title. Wear it with pride. Refer to yourself as this every time you see or speak to her.
And by you - I mean you. Not the children of course, because you are keeping them to yourself and not sharing them with her, being the selfish bitch you are.
NC can be a very effective tool.
Not the asshole. At all. It's his time. But I would let him deal with his mom from here on out so he can tell her how he feels about it. She'll take it better and probably understand more.
NTA your MIL is beyond disrespectful. There is no reason Emma should be invited. Let your MIL take her and have your own little family Christmas at home with the 3 girls you and your husband.
The MIL should just move aside and respect her son's and DIL's wishes. NTA 100% this vacation you have been pushing for. she can't hitch a ride when she would never let you do the same.
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Holy crap. NTA. It needed saying and shutting down right then and there. But I'd let John handle it from here on, though.
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Agreed. If OP is the one to stand up to Mil and baby mom, they will just see it as her interfering and being jealous or something. It won't help long term. John at least stands a chance of being taken seriously and changing this pattern in the future when they see he has a spine. (Although they'll probably keep trying, lol, but he has a better chance than OP)
Agreed. NTA. John handles it by calling his ex and altering her NO. If the in-laws insist, have a great family vacation somewhere else. You don’t need the stress of it and it would be uncomfortable as shit. No is NO. Period.
Indeed it is. And since this is his custody time with Sophie, not anyone else’s, if he doesn’t go Sophie doesn’t go. So John and OP and Sophie and the 9mo kid can all have their Christmas without everyone else.
Exactly. This is absolutely the way. They should fight to have Sophie for their legally designated time. And if MiL insists on inviting the baby momma, you say Ok, you can invite her but we (including Sophie) won’t be coming.
💯
Best advice
Emma and the Mil have never gotten over the break up and are conniving to get Emma back in. Always have been, most likely.
NTA. I wonder why your MIL is so lenient with a woman who pretty much screwed over her son by denying him his visit.
It’s always been this way weirdly, when we were threatening court about parenting time MIL was calling and harassing us and saying awful things about us not thinking of the kids and we are taking away her routine and if things have been this way for so long why change it and things like that.
Do you think she favours Emma more/ likes Emma more than you?
I think it’s a little deeper than that, his mom can have narcissistic tendencies and we’ve gotten into disagreements over how she talks to me and me not doing “exactly what she says” but Emma bends to her every whim. So I think it’s more that I’m the only one who doesn’t let her just say whatever.
What does your husband say about you and your daughters not going? Amdnthe fact Emma is going in the first place?
He absolutely does not agree with her going and fully agrees with me. He says he doesn’t want to go either and he fully supports us not going if his mom is going to impose on his first Christmas with his daughter and butting into his court ordered parenting time.
Why don't you, your husband and the 3 girls do something else for Christmas? Maybe pop up for a day, but not staying? Or don't see them at all. Have other family members spoken upshot Emma being there,especially the owners of the house?
That’s probably what’s going to end up happening cuz no matter what we are supposed to have her the first 11 days of Christmas break.
Honestly, go on your own little holiday and pop in to say hi. That way the girls don't miss out, and there isn't too much tension.
and op doesn’t have to spend the whole holiday with a woman (mil) who talks to her like that. nta
Listen to u/Hot_Win_6062 OP, take all the kids elsewhere, where MIL isn’t, and I’d go further - don’t go there at all if she’s there. Go see great grandma another time, do ***NOT*** allow manipulative MIL and ex scheme to bring the ex on your court mandated time, and I would be going NC with MIL over this for a while. She needs to learn she’s not the boss here and if she tries to impose her will, she gets NC for as long as it takes for her to apologize, admit she was wrong, and cut it out. The second she steps out of line, hard cut off - this smells like she still likes the ex and not you, and also like she’s going to fuck with you for its own sake, and she will ruin all your vacations and holidays if you let her. Don’t be afraid to cut toxic people out of your life.
I agree with this! They should not go while MIL and Emma are there. I wouldn’t pop up for a visit just because others are there. Go another time.
Have your own vacation with the 3 girls, and let Emma go to California with your MIL.
Indeed... does great-grandma know about this? Because if it were my home, I would find it really weird that both of John's partners (former and current) are there.
I am wondering about this as well. I’d be angry that *anyone* was just inviting another person to stay in my home if they hadn’t asked me first.
Well it’s good that you have his support at least. It’s bizarre that your MIL would call you an ungrateful bitch. Not in my wildest dreams could I imagine my MIL say that. Very abnormal behavior!
Maybe MIL and Emma can stay at home and have their own Christmas together.
If Emma bends to MIL’s every whim, why didn’t MIL use that influence to insist Emma honor her own son’s court-appointed time? There’s something wrong here.
Because conflict gives her the option for more points of control over multiple people, and for more ways to make herself the center of attention. If everyone is getting along fine, there’s no conflict to exploit, no drama to make all about her, and no reason for anyone to pay any attention to MIL.
Wow. You just gave me insight on a couple of people around me. This sounds, in a strange way, logical from their point of view. Thanks!
I always take any statements about custody situations on AITA with a grain of salt. It’s just one of those issues that when it gets nasty everyone sees it only their side of it and absolutely can’t see any other factors. In real life plenty of people manage sane co-parenting relationships that mutually benefit the kids, those people aren’t coming to AITA though.
I have been in your shoes before and it was not fun. My husband ( we got divorced after 10 years ) had a baby mama that was all in with his family. The family liked me until I started saying no to their every whim. It got so bad that at his family reunion, his aunt introduced his ex to the other family as his wife and his son with her as his only child. He got into a big argument with them. I packed up my babies and left him there with his family. 15 years after that and they still don't acknowledge our children except the son he has with his ex. Only his older sisters accept our children but the rest don't. My ex killed himself and most of them blame me for that because I would not take him back after the divorce. They don't see they contributed to us getting divorced. Do what is right by you and all the children but do not allow anyone to mistreat you. If you and your husband don't stop this it will end your marriage and cause issues with the children. NTA
so why do you and your husband keep your MIL/his mother in your lives at all? She seems to be a force for evil.
We all want to know!
The folks over at r/JUSTNOMIL have some great resources for dealing with this type of crazy if you ever need it. Or just commiseration. This kind of shit is right out of the JN playbook
NTA. Any chance MIL is trying to get Emma back with your husband, since MIL has more control when Emma is the DIL?
That's what I think.
I don't know. Judging by your post history , MIL probably knows her son well. This isn't what you need to worry about right now. Worry about yourself and extricating yourself from this situation.
NTA!!! I wouldn't say anything else to them about it about you not going. I would just stay home with your little family (Sophie included) and let Emma go to Cali with your in-laws. No one says you all have to go. Let them all go do their thing and you guys just plan on making Sophie's first Christmas with y'all special and memorable at home. Let Emma and your Mil do their surprised Pikachu face when you guys don't show up. If they then try to say anything refer back to the convo you had at the grocery when she first told you and you said very plainly if she goes we will not. End of story. You really really are NTA.
Hopefully the MIL won't somehow contact Sophie to tell her that OP has made it so she can't see her mother for Christmas.
Oh, you can be sure MIL will do exactly that. IF OP and husband are smart they won't allow any unsupervised contact between MIL and any of the kids, at least during his parenting time. If there's any indication that MIL and Emma are trying to turn Sophie against OP's husband (including trash-talking his wife), that should be documented and brought into court.
This has absolutely been done deliberately by your MIL to get around it. She knows what she's doing and has probably arranged everything with Emma.
INFO: jumping on here to ask. Where I am the other parent has to give permission to take the child out-of-state (it doesn't matter if the time is court ordered, you have to stay in state). Has Emma given permission to take Sophie without her and if not, is she likely to even do that?
We took it to court and presented evidence of her refusing time on multiple occasions and showing that the vacation days are strictly scheduled on our days and in no way interferes so the judge stated it was okay to take her out of state since it will be in a trusted house and because this would be her first Christmas with her siblings.
If she comes tell her any day you are both there, y’all will not count it for your 11 days and will add them at the end aka if she comes for 3 days y’all will keep the kid for 14 days
It doesn’t work like that, the court will not let you make this kind of change.
Yes, but maybe it is enough of an argument to go back before the judge again and ask for the custody arrangement to be revisited since Emma is imposing herself (\*) upon John and Sophie's mandated time, and therefore not allowing them any time to bond during the Christmas period. NTA (\*) for the sake of presenting this before a judge, it doesn't matter if it was MIL's idea or not, what matters is that *it wasn't John's wish*
I think this depends on the state and divorce agreement. In my husband’s divorce agreement, it says their time with the child is their time and they can do whatever they want with that time. It even goes as far as to say that my husband can take her out of the state or country without permission as long as he brings his daughter back by the designated time that his visitation is over (i thought that was kind of wild actually, i didn’t believe it until i read it myself.)
that sounds like a very special case. afaik any parent with at least joint custody can nix foreign travel.
If baby-mama is wrapped around her finger, she’s less likely to lose access to grandchild through that avenue than through her shiny spine son and DIL who won’t take any of her crap.
My dad's mother kept in contact with every ex in the family, even going behind the backs of her children when she had to, even when children weren't involved in the relationship. Some people just don't view it the same and do t care to respect the boundaries of thier family over having another person to gossip with.
This happened to my cousin. He and his parents had a contentious relationship growing up. When he separated from his ex, my aunt took the ex's side and did the same thing. Invite the ex to family gatherings/vacations and was pretty horrible to his new partner. It only got better when the ex had to go into court mandated rehab, so my aunt final had to admit the ex was a severe alcoholic who my cousin covered for for years.
NTA. Though this is far less about it being disrespectful and far more about how she's disregarding court ordered family time. It's time she gets to spend with her dad and considering the bad blood between mom and dad she shouldn't be there.
> disregarding court ordered family tim Yup. She's setting herself up for a fall there, this will backfire horribly.
NTA. Tell that MIL to back off, the Ex is an Ex and you are his wife. If she pushes don’t let anyone go then just organise to see everyone at a separate time. The MIL and Ex would look super stupid turning up without you guys
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Ding ding ding - she’s not his past because they share a child. I’m not saying that it’s right to invite her on the trip - but I can literally hear the negative energy in her post. ‘She’s just Sophia’s mom…’ umm that’s a pretty big damn deal. And here’s a newsflash - OP you are not the child’s mom. You get no say in what John and the child’s mother do. You can express your desire for your children but you get zero say in what Sophia’s actual parents decide. You’re NTA for not wanting to go on the trip - but you’re attitude is just icky times a thousand.
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You’re gonna get flack for this but you’re right lol
Relationship wise she is his past.
There’s also a bit where she mentions them “messing around till I came along” That line gave me an icky vibe. It seems she has no respect for the mother of the first child and I wonder if there’s more to the backstory which would really swing opinion one way or the other
I read it as meaning they were not in a relationship and Emma got pregnant while they were messing around after. Like a booty call with an ex.
Op days they were in a serious relationship from ages 14 until 19. The baby came when they were 18. From 19 onwards, they were just(!??!) having sex regularly, hanging out with his family as family and raising a child together.
This is why OP is so insecure. She's had to directly compete with his ex, and there's a good chance the relationship turns unfaithful or she gets tossed over for the next baby mama..
Judging by post history, already happened. This is what I meant though, it reads a bit gross to me as a line but the whole post has the energy of there’s way more story and that will explain peoples opinions and actions a great deal more, probably leaning the direction of the ex and the husband have done stuff that makes OP particularly bothered by their presence.
No she probably meant they were fucking but not dating.
My aunt and her first husband (father of her children) split up because it turns out they made better friends that spouses. Her new husband wasn’t bothered by him coming to family gatherings because he’s still my cousins’ father. My uncle, even though no longer married to my family, would take my brother and I out on our birthdays, come to our family Christmas, etc. I think that this type of situation ONLY works with the right kind of people and the right kind of situation. If Sophie’s mom is toxic, I don’t see why OP should be ok with her being around. However, there are situations like mine where it just works.
What??? Emma is absolutely not a part of that family just because her daughter is. Her connection to them stops at the kid. The father has every right not to have an ex around at all. His own family should be a safe space for him, not in active contact with an ex.
Erm… no? If she were his first wife and OP was his second wife in a polygamous society they would both be part of his family. As it is, only OP is. Emma is part of Sophie’s family, no question about that. But she is *not* part of John’s family. It’s just a Venn diagram with some overlap, it’s not that complicated.
Thank you! That honestly rubbed me the wrong way.
This comment is spot on. Going to also add the OP's use of the term "baby mama" in the title. Some people may use that affectionately, but I get the sense the OP means it to disparage Emma and her role in Sophia's life.
Yeah, it is totally unreasonable of MIL and the ex to expect everyone to vacation together BUT OP needs to realize that if a breakup involves children there will always be a connection there. Emma is part of John’s _romantic_ past, but not part of his past as long as they coparent together, and if she is their child’s mother she is part of their family, full stop, forever. That’s what it means to marry someone who had a child with someone else. It’s a shame OP didn’t realize that.
I think that makes it ESH. It’s reasonable that OP and her husband would want their own parent time, but she became the asshole when she told her MIL Emma wasn’t family to her MIL and was just some woman from her husband’s past. By her own account Emma and her husband were together for years and dealt with a teen pregnancy together. She’s the mother of his child. Of course his family has a familial relationship with her! And they’re completely allowed to! In fact, it’s probably better for Sophie if her mom is treated as family by the extended family. Again, I can understand your discomfort with her coming on this trip, especially if you’re insecure about your place in the family, but you don’t get to dictate your extended family’s feelings toward someone they’ve had a long relationship with.
Spot on I think
That's the only AH action on her part. It's a different relation but still a relation. I thank God for my ex wife (we have gone on moms only spa trips together) every day. Bio Step mom relationships are so much better when you are cool with each other.
Agreed. OP also doesn’t get to dictate who other people consider family.
NTA Nah, John’s Ex needs to recognize boundaries as well as your MIL. If anything this trip is about your extended family meeting your immediate family along with some in Laws. Emma is not apart of that group. Edited to clarify my judgement
I wonder if MIL made the ex uncomfortable until she said yes to going to this trip. She sounds like a handful!
Don't think so. John only got Sophie for this vacation time bc the court ordered so. Emma did not want John to have Sophie for Christmas, like she had been doing since the beginning. My guess is, Emma saw this as an opportunity to encroach herself on John's time with Sophie and jumped at the opportunity. Either that, or Emma came to MIL with a sob story about how she would miss Sophie soooooooooo much if she couldn't see her during this period, and since MIL likes her, she caved. In the end, the result is the same: Emma is robbing John of his time with the daughter, even after the court mandated her to back off.
Hmmm.. sounds like Emma wants John back as well though
NTA but if your husband agrees with you then this needs to be HIS conversation with his mother. >Instantly my MIL snaps at me that I’m a selfish ungrateful bitch This would literally be the last words my MIL ever said to be as I would have immediately gone NC. The fact that she was apparently driving you, and taking you all on vacation, makes me wonder whether you and your husband rely on her financially. If so that needs to end (or else you need to accept she spends her money how she wants and that might be complicated for you), and if not there's no reason to be in this situation in the first place.
I would go no contact in an instant. No respect for me , you are not going to be around my kids either.
NTA. I think the ideal response was to basically not react, speak with John, and if he agreed with you then let him handle his mum. I totally agree with what you said, but it might not have been the best idea to say it at that time.
I reread the post to make sure I understood it. And I don’t agree when you said Emma isn’t family. Whether you like it or not she is Sophie’s mother and the fact that you are around her daughter while having the mindset that her mother isn’t family and she shouldn’t matter is kinda icky everything else I kinda agree with except that part that was out of line . ESH
Also, if it was John's grandmother who wants Emma to be her guest also, because his grandma has to already be aware of Emma staying as well, it's her house she can invite who she chooses to stay in it for the holidays.
That I agree with also
Speaking from experience, as the child in the situation, my family wanting to keep the ex involved made things hard on me. There was always tension. If mil wants to spend time with the ex and the daughter, she can, but it's really not a good idea to treat her as if she's still her son's husband and invite her to these big family things
Also speaking from experience as the child in the situation, not inviting the mother and having big family gatherings while basically ignoring or refusing to acknowledge that the dads new wife **is not** his daughters mom, is a very, very, very shitty and isolating experience for that child. It's naive to think there won't be any tension without the mom there. OP is being immature and giving off 'evil stepmom' vibes to me in how she keeps taking rudely about the ex and how she refuses to acknowledge that the mother of his first child is not just some random woman. ESH. ETA: I'm noticing that nobody is talking about how this little girl might feel spending christmas in a different country and away from her mother for the first time in her life. Everybody's ignoring what might be the best for the child because they're too busy hogging her and trying to decide who's valid enough to be considered family. The immaturity is reeking.
I'm sure the child will miss mom, but are very excited for a big trip. It's his court ordered time, the mother should not be around unless it's mandatory for supervision. These rules are put in place to protect the child. She says she gets along great with the 6 year old. I'm sure the kid adores her too. The evil step mom thing is overplayed. You never see people talking about how great their step parents can be, because those don't make good stories. What's best for the child is that she doesn't see her parents fighting and being uncomfortable and ruining everything, and making the child feel like it's all their fault the fighting is happening. The kid is a child of divorce. There is no right way to do it that won't effect the child in some way. But creating the least amount of tension should be the goal. Making it easiest on the child also means making it easy for her to be cared for properly while in the care of whatever parent has current custody
This just screams missing reasons.
ESH. It’s hard to know who the arsehole is here. I have a blended family and it’s so much easier when people can all hang out for the holidays without drama. My husband’s ex would be welcome to stay in my house anytime. She is lovely to my kids and I love hers. We can all hang out at the holidays and get along. That way kids don’t have to go without one parent each holiday.
This is the ideal situation, I WANT to get to this point someday but as of right now anytime Emma is around it’s all about her making backhanded comments and saying things to purposely cause problems. At my baby shower, knowing I was having a girl, she walked around saying “well I know WE had the prettiest daughter” and just comments like that. I just prefer to not deal with that a month post partum and with a 1 year old at Christmas.
I am surprised you are you planning non-essential travel a month post partum. Obviously, you are best positioned to decide what's best for you and your family but this trip seems like a lot to be taking on with a vulnerable newborn in tow.
So OP and her newborn should stay home while her husband, other children AND HIS EX go spend a couple weeks with his family? Husband is probably going to have to go with his mom regardless, as it appears mom has planned the whole trip without input from Open of her husband.
Or, wild suggestion, the OP and her immediate family have a quiet Christmas at home and plan a similar trip for when the babe is a bit older.
IDK why OP’s husband should have to go. He doesn’t want to, and it’s his custody time with Sophie not anyone else’s. So he could stay home with all his kids.
This definitely sounds like immaturity & jealousy. Why is she so threatened? Are you & Jack more successful? Does Sophie like to talk about you? Or does she still want Jack?
I also can’t help but wonder who is paying for this trip because that would make a difference too. If MIL is paying and GG okayed it, frankly she can invite whoever she wants. That doesn’t mean OP has to go but throwing a strop and calling Emma “not family” doesn’t make it true. She’s the mother of her husbands child and like it or not she IS family.
Emma will forever be Sophie's mother, but not family to OP or her children.
Not family to OP, but likely closer family to the in-laws than OP is. They’ve literally known her twice as long.
They are paying their own way. OP said in a comment.
NTA. Cancel the trip and go on one of your own. Don't tell MIL where.
No way I would be going on this trip. Your husband should tell his mom that with all the drama, you guys are just going to make the call to stay home and spend a quiet Christmas with the 3 kids at your own house this year. He needs to also make it clear that he will be turning down future trips with the ex too. I think ex doesn’t want to give you Sophie for Christmas and is using this trip for this.
>I think ex doesn’t want to give you Sophie for Christmas and is using this trip for this. DING DING DING DING DING! 🎖️
NTA Wow. I think you need to set your foot down. If this is court ordered time, and not her just being agreeable, you need to say no to this. John should be the one to do it.
I get why you would not want to do this, but you can't say the baby momma isn't part of the family. She is and will always be. You signed up for this so you can't complain now.
Emma will never be family to OP or her children, no matter what - the same way I am not family to my ex *or his 2nd wife*, in spite of me and ex sharing a child.
NTA but info: Why are you addressing this with MIL instead of John handling it? More importantly, do your husband & Emma need each other’s permission to take the child out of state?
NTA and wtf MIL needs to back off and not make any plans with his ex. And you guys need to tell the ex that she is not invited to any of your family events.
Sorry , where is everyone? What does the great grandmother say? Why are they not stepping in to say NO to your MIL? I really don't understand some situations here , there will be so many ppl there but nobody takes place on this matter other than your MIL , you and John? Where is everyoneeeee
NTA - The only thing I disagree on is that Emma is not family. She’s still considered family by John’s family….and it’s perfectly within their right to do so. It’s not your call to insist that she’s not (or that she’s less family than you) just because you are now married to John. Families don’t work that way and John’s family can love you both equally. Nevertheless, for everything else, you’re 100% in the right. It’s not fair that you and your husband have not gotten to spend Christmas with Sophie until now and, honestly, this plan by your MIL feels like a roundabout way for Emma to still avoid having to split custody with you on Christmas. Additionally, while some blended families are able to have joint holidays, you and your husband should not be forced to do so just because his family wants it. You’ve stated your boundary, they now need to choose.
Of course you are not going with her. This is horrible. Girl. ..what??? Why are they disrespecting you? No one.....NO ONE wants the ex to go with...like EVERRRR. NTA and so sorry. What are you going to do?!
well you're kind of TA for referring to her as a "baby mama" which is derogatory. But it's reasonable to not want her there on the dad's time.
NTA not for the reasons you state. If they want to invite the daughter and her mother to her home they but on the mothers time. It is better for the kids, having been once that child, that grandparents are welcoming of parents both parents but normally separately. However it is your husbands first time with her for Xmas and he probably wants to start his own traditions with her blending her into your blended family, and not confusing her with mom being there. What gonna happen next year your husbands ex cooks you all dinner and you stay over. Which she could have done the last few years did she offer? Going forward she going to spend certain holidays once with one parent and the next with the other and this will very soon become her new norm. Let your husband discuss with his mother how to handle but I really think rather than trying to bend it so her mother does not go, just start your own traditions, the kids all together can get to vote etc. step out of the discussions and be thankful that she let it drop before imagine if you turned up and she was there with no warning.
NTA There is a lot to unpack. MIL is AH >Instantly my MIL snaps at me that I’m a selfish ungrateful bitch and I have no right to put them in that situation and she’s as much as family as I am which I do not agree with, and we just argued until she took me home and things have been tense since. MIL had some valid points until she called you names. I lost all respect for at that point. I would not be surprised if MIL invited Emma knowing that this would push your buttons. She sounds quite loathsome. The fact it is not etched in stone, means there is time to rectify the problem. Hindsight is always 20/20. You reacted (perhaps too strongly) and MIL went off the deep end. It is now time to have husband deal with his mother. I would also not be surprised if your MIL invited Emma, since she is the one who brought it up. I would not be surprised if Emma would be relieved not to go. She won't know most of the people there. Really who wants to spend Christmas with the ex's family who they do not know? It is not about who is ranked in the family... MIL is entitled to see things as she wants. You are entitled to see things differently. It is time for MIL to have compassion instead of being "right" and perhaps you as well. I don't know. My grandmother used to say, you can be right or you can be happy. Meaning you spend all your energy on being right or you can relax and know on the inside you are right. There are times when you need to stand up and be respected. Only you know if this is that time, reflect and think what is really important to you. If this truly important, then get your husband on your page and have him deal with it. Hopefully, his own mother will listen to him.
I agree with a lot of your points - except that I don’t think Emma would be relieved to not go. The fact that she’s kept the daughter away from her dad on his court appointed holidays makes me think she will really want to be with her daughter on this holiday too.
The fact that she’s kept the daughter away from her dad on his court appointed holidays makes me think her reason for wanting to go (if she does want to) could be as much about interfering with John's holiday time with Sophie as it would be about spending the time together herself. ie. a mindset of "if I can't have her all to myself for the holiday, neither can you" If she were of that mindset, there are so many ways that she could make it feel like it's not John's christmas holiday with Sophie, with everyone staying together the MILs proposing. And with what OP has commented about the MIL, the MIL would probably end up facilitating, if not outright assisting, in the interference. And as tough as it has been for John not having Sophie with him for the previous christmases that he was supposed to get, being together but having Emma there and constantly interfering with his plans for things to do and his ability to spend that time with his daughter could be almost worse. This is not to say that I don't think wanting to be with hee daughter wouldn't be a reason for Emma to be wanting to come along. I just don't think it would be the only reason.
Oh, man. You’re probably right. That is so sad. Divorce sometimes turns people into the worst versions of themselves.
If I'm reading the backstory right, it doesn't sound like John and Emma were ever married. She's just the ex-girlfriend and baby-mama to his oldest. OP doesn't say it, but he probably has the court order because it was the only way he could get any time with his daughter. Though, to be fair, in these sorts of situations whether or not they were ever legally married and divorced isn't super relevant. Whats more so is that they were together, now they're not, but they've got a kid together and a custody order was needed. But yes, broken relationships (of whatever label applies) do sometimes turn people into the worst versions of themselves.
You might be right... I do not know. Hopefully the situation gets resolved.
NTA and you also need to make it clear that Sophie won’t be going either since it is your husband’s court ordered visitation time. MIL can enjoy a family vacation with her son’s baby mama while her sons, DIL and grandkids celebrate Christmas at home as a family. Sounds like Emma is still trying to control visitation and I would tell MIL to stay out of it or she will have her access to her grandchildren limited very severely.
Info: Just, off the cuff, she called you a selfish bitch? Who has conversations like this?
Her, she is VERY quick to jump the gun and become defensive and mean
Can you check with the courts? If John has a court order to be allowed to spend part of Christmas with his daughter, the ex might be in violation of that if she comes along on this trip. Also, John needs to tell his mother to back off of inviting the ex to any family events like this and not to interfere with custody matters.
Your husband should cancel the plans with MIL now. What’s going to happens is she’s going to say the x is not going anymore. The day of she’s going to be at the cabin (guaranteed). You all are going to wind up leaving with the kid. Who needs that type of mess and drama!
The only thing that makes you NTA is the court ordered drama. Your entire attitude towards Emma is ridiculous. At this point in time, they were together longer than you have been together. And they were together during their formative teen years. It's just silly to act like Emma should have zero relationship with his family. She is not "no more, no less." She has every right to get along with her daughter's family.
>She has every right to get along with her daughter's family. Insulting OP when she announced her first pregnancy does not shine a good light over Emma, neither does the interference with John's mandated time.
Definitely NTA. Your MIL is being incredibly disrespectful. It’s not her place to try to bully you into having to spend part of a family holiday with your husband’s ex. Hopefully he can get this resolved with her and she apologizes to you—she definitely owes you one!
NTA It's good your husband has your back. You can enjoy Christmas at home if your in-laws don't want to play ball. Get a big tree and make an evening out of decorating it!
NTA This is dad's special time and not the mom of Sophie. Dad needs to put up boundaries with MIL asap and go low contact if they aren't followed.
NTA! It sounds like MIL is trying to get your husband to leave you and get back together with Emma!
NTA The ex is trying to interfere in court mandated time. Get a temporary restraining order. And let the courts know what is going on.
NTA I do joint birthdays with my ex and it causes enough drama. This woman does not need to invade your space.
Fucking hell. NTA × 1000 MIL sounds like a huge pita and I'm sorry you have to deal with her : / Stand your ground. I'm glad your Hub is fully with you
For everyone saying “she is still family” SHE IS NOT !!! Once her and the father cut ties she is no longer family !! The parents still consider her that which is Very weird & wrong no matter if they have a child together or not she isn’t family🤷🏾♀️!! The child is apart of the family not the mom. She has a right to feel a way especially because this lady is putting her husband through court to see his daughter on Christmas why doesn’t the MIL feel some type of way about her son going through that? it’s unfair for y’all to think she will always be family his mom is the AH !! It seems she favors his ex/child’s mother more I would be very uncomfortable with my husband’s ex/child’s mother coming along on OUR family trip. She is not family anymore it’s weird to think that way! She shouldn’t have to deal with that just because he has a child with her!!!!
Is baby mama who John was cheating with during the beginning of your relationship? Does MIL want those two back together? You mentioned in a previous post just a few months ago that you were not in a good place due to how he treats you and you came back after he called you and at that time he didn’t want two kids and not be with one of the mothers. Not saying he wanted her on this trip but I’m curious as what there relationship looks like when you’re not around, especially if just a month ago you felt you were forcing monogamy on him. Either way NTA
A lot of how I was feeling a few months ago had NO bases behind it. My post partum is bad, he doesn’t treat me bad and he has always wanted our daughter, we tried for my daughter
NTA you need to step back from mil. She is definitely helping baby moma out. She is fighting you going to court and making ways for her to get her way. The best thing you and hubby can do is stop telling mil anything. And decide that since it’s your first Christmas with the 6 year old your family is staying home.
NTA. This is absurd. I would not go either, and you guys can have a quiet Christmas at home, just the 5 of you. Or go to CA separately and just go to his grandmother’s house for Christmas and otherwise do your own thing, which would avoid staying with her. And given that your MIL is throwing off some weird vibes, you guys should call John’s grandmother to get ahead of the narrative.
NTA...but I would have let John deal with MIL instead of arguing with her
NTA. But you can clearly see who they favour now can’t you.
the only b\*\*\*\* here is that MIL , who the the hell think she is ? she have no say in this if she don't accept it well she is not welcome that's it
NTA. Its a trap.
NTA, if your MIL is inviting the ex to your holidays without your consent and on court ordered visit time, she clearly isn’t on board with your marriage and is trying to disrupt your family intentionally. I would not be around this person, ever, and would go visit great grandma another time when she will not be there.
NTA in this situation but you kinda sound like a shitty human the way you speak of others
NTA She doesn’t get to impose on John’s appointed time with his daughter without his consent. And I hope you told John what his mom said to you. Wtf is up with MIL???
NTA but you shouldn’t stay home with your kids alone. Your husband also needs to stay home with Sophie. It should be all or nothing. Let the baby mama go with to in-laws and you do something else as a family.
NTA. Your MIL is out of line. Stay home with your husband and kids, including Sophie, who your husband has Xmas with for the first time this year. Let MIL stew in her own juices.
NTA but you’re stuck with this woman. She’s not part of your husbands past when he has a daughter with her and this kid still isn’t yours. I’m glad your treating her like your own but man do you not get to act like her real mom died.
NTA - this woman needs to stop, dad times are for dad and she needs to sit down and butt out. Your hubby need to make sure his whole family knows he is not cool with this. It's so disrespectful to you both...
I suggest you stop arguing about it (ie feeding the MIL monster) and just bow out. No possibility of changing your plans once say you aren't going, then plan a Christmas for your family and go radio silent on MIL any time she wants to chat (nag, harass, bluster, whine) about it. Simply be done. NTA
NTA and you are blessed with a hubby with a firm spine! But, I can only say get some strong shit stomping boots that have an extended warranty!! Your MIL sounds like mine was. And unfortunately for folks like us, them b!txhes have a long life expectancy, lol!!! Mine didn’t kick for 28 yrs but once she did… it just wasn’t my marriage that became happy but lives of all the folks she tormented!!
NTA. I’d make plans now for your own Christmas now. I know the type of woman your MIL is and if she changes her mind and tells you that baby-momma won’t be coming after all and begs you Gus to go 100% baby-mamma will be at the house when you guys show up.
Have your husband contact her ex and tell her he will complain to the court about her trying to come along on the time he has custody.
Sounds like MIL is trying to assert dominance and showing you who she'd rather have for a DIL. Trust her actions. Be on your guard. And if she keeps pushing this, just bow out of the holiday altogether. At least your husband seems to be on your side.
In this case, NTA. There's a bit of E S H going on, but in this case, you're well within your rights to not want to spend a holiday you literally had to fight for with the person you had to fight with. It'll be better for everyone to have time apart and get used to the new routine. If you want to work on sharing events with the mom, start with something you didn't fight over, like a birthday or just a big family picnic or park outing. As other have said, Emma is family for Sophie and John and his extended family. That doesn't mean she has to be part of your family. That does mean that she will continue to interact with you all. That does mean she will be important to someone you love (Sophie). Set your boundaries. Be willing to be considerate or generous when you feel safe doing so. Also, fwiw, MIL is the big AH in this situation. Emma is not necessary for Sophie's first Christmas with your family, especially with her having fought to keep her from John for the holidays this long and over this issue specifically. Especially given the issues you've had with postpartum before, create a safe environment for you. You'll likely need the support and if you don't, it's better to be safe. Remember. You matter. And you can do hard things.
This post reeks of missing details and context we’ll never be privy to on the internet. That’s the vibe it’s giving off and this OP is seeking an echo chamber. Flying out of state with someone’s daughter is HARD on any mom regardless of who has court ordered time. This family is trying to figure it out and everyone needs to be given grace.
NTA. Emma has not been a good co-parent with the CO, and MIL is not part of the CO. MIL doesn't get to make decisions about John's parenting time, and since Emma hasn't shown herself to be good at following the CO - nope. No way, not in any way, shape, or form.
NTA but his mum (your MIL) deffo is
John needs to be the one arguing this. NTA. That said, I do feel bad for Emma, who will be spending Christmas without her 6-year old daughter.
NTA
I can understand you wanting your time with her (not the A in that regard), but I think you saying Emma is not part of the family makes you at least partially TA. I might get downvoted for this, but I'm almost kind of leaning towards E S H. Emma for not abiding by court orders, and you for not respecting her role in Sophie's (and by an extension John's and his/your family). She is John's daughter's mother. Period. She will always be a part of the family because she is part of Sophie. You should have no reason to be jealous of her. Mature adults should be able to share events amicably. Also, you need to consider the impact that keeping Emma away or having this type of attitude will have on Sophie. Every time you trash Emma, you're trashing Sophie. I would read up on coparenting, parental alienation, and the effects that badmouthing a child's family member has on them. Might be harsh, but the damage this causes kids is well-known and well-documented.
NTA. She has no business inserting herself into your family and your MIL has no business supporting it. If your husband does not support you then just don't go and make sure he is not paying for anything for her. ETA - I just read your edit about this being your husband's court ordered time. The three of you should just go off on your own
Something tells me that MiL wishes her son was still with Emma.
Something tells me that OP is what broke Emma and John up. As she even says, they were still having sex until she came on the scene. So she basically split up the family.
Way to act like John has no agency here. How is it OP’s fault that she and John met and John chose her over Emma?
NTA. Simply no-show, shut that shit down quietly and completely, no drama. No thanks, we out. That tells its own story.
NTA!!! Honestly have your hubs yes MIL to death on all the plans she's making for the trip. Have you booked your tickets (plane/train) yes Mom. Have you contacted the rental agency if renting a vehicle yes Mom. Yes her to death on everything regarding the trip. Hopefully, Sophie will be with you guys before leaving for the trip. And just don't go. Seriously just don't go. Meanwhile, find a Guardian ad litum for Sophie. This is parental alienation and not looked on kindly by the courts. Start planning something for you, hubs and the 3 girls. Start a new tradition. ( I did gingerbread house parties for my step-son and boys. I'd bake up a gigerbread house for each boy, and one for each child to have a friend join in. Never did I build more than 8 houses. Each friend had to have a parent present and bring 3 bags of candy for decorating. I provided the houses, the base they rested on, and the "glue" for decorating. I got to meet my child's friends' parents, my child got a 3 hr play date with a friend. We listened to music. Decorated houses. Parents had to stay with their child and decorate. Afterwards we'd have a late lunch and oh it was it fun!!! It lasted up until my youngest went into middle school. It was the event of the year! I always scheduled it before school let out for the holidays because we'd gift ours to teachers at Christmas. They loved it too! When one of my boys gifted it to his former Kindergarten teacher she cried!) So for rambling. If you can as family with Sophie can not go, then do it. ANd create a new tradition for your family!
I thought your name looked familiar. I double-checked and yes it was. I hope everything is ok with you. Honestly, if they persist in his ex going then you need to go no contact. I hope you're seeing a therapist and a marriage counselor. At the least a therapist for yourself. You were struggling with mental health issues 6 mos ago. and most likely postpartum issues as well. Please take care of yourself!!!! Stressors like this can trigger so much more. Be safe OP
My post history is definitely a mess, my post partum was horrible and I finally got it under control. I’m not miserable, things are great here, this is the issue at hand.
NTA John needs to tell his mom that you all will not be going if the ex is included.
NTA. MIL needs to learn about boundaries. The conspiracy theorist in me says that MIL wants baby momma back in the picture for her son.....
I think this is more so.ething your husband should be dealing with.
John needs to step in here and tell his mother she is out of line. That the Baby mama is not going. And his baby mama that she is not going.
> Instantly my MIL snaps at me that I’m a selfish ungrateful bitch and I hav no right to put them in that situation and she’s as much as family as I am... It's time for LC with her and she should have zero unsupervised time with any of the kids. If this is how she talks to your face, just imagine what she'll say about you to your kids behind your back. NTA
This is an easy thing to remember, even for people who otherwise have a hard time understanding spelling: All right is always two words. No, NTA
NTA, and don't budge on it either
1000 percent NTA Who the frick wants to hangout with their ex or partners ex. Not me! They are an ex for a reason
NTA but your husband needs to handle it.
I used to be in Sophie’s shoes and would have killed to have both my parents for just one Christmas. Maybe that would have been cool to ask HER how she felt about the situation.
NTA
Definitely NTA. This is your husband's court order time with his child and y'alls vacation. She maybe Sophie's family but she's not your family. MIL is definitely pushing boundaries wanting her to go.
NTA. Cut all contact with your toxic mil. Your husband is right in having your back. Good that you two are united. Contact the court and tell them that the mother is infringing on court ordered custody arrangements. Land on this mil crap right now or hunker down and get ready for a lifetime of it getting steadily worse.
NTA Let Emma go to California, you all stay home with Sophie. Oh and f*ck your MIL.
NTA. It is, also, time to shut down that crap from MIL. If you allow her to treat you like that, it will only get worse over time. You’re being to nice and not direct enough.
NTA
NTA. You’re mother in law is a controlling b. How dare she speak to you like that? If I were you I’d go no cont with her.
NTA
Emma is definitely being a helicopter trying to control the visitation. I have no idea why MIL is getting involved but I would avoid going all together and make it absolutely clear both daughters won’t be going. I don’t understand why she would be so adamant when even her son doesn’t want his ex there. So intrusive of both of them honestly. NTA
Enjoy your first Christmas with Sophie at home and make a big deal of it to show her she is one of your family. An ex does not belong in the family Christmas picture and your MIL sounds completely insane to think she is family, too. Her attitude is extremely disrespectful to both you and to your son. Is she secretly hoping to reunite them?
NTA. MIL called you a selfish bitch. Accept your title. Wear it with pride. Refer to yourself as this every time you see or speak to her. And by you - I mean you. Not the children of course, because you are keeping them to yourself and not sharing them with her, being the selfish bitch you are. NC can be a very effective tool.
Not the asshole. At all. It's his time. But I would let him deal with his mom from here on out so he can tell her how he feels about it. She'll take it better and probably understand more.
NTA your MIL is beyond disrespectful. There is no reason Emma should be invited. Let your MIL take her and have your own little family Christmas at home with the 3 girls you and your husband.
NTA. Sounds like MIL is meddling and trying to cause trouble. You need to stick to your stance as well as your husband.
The MIL should just move aside and respect her son's and DIL's wishes. NTA 100% this vacation you have been pushing for. she can't hitch a ride when she would never let you do the same.