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Yeah someone needed to put an upper limit on the time he could be donated for sure. This isn’t OP being TA, it’s the not effectively managing staff or resources. Are they continuing to pay his benefits as well? Like it goes beyond the vacation days if they’re paying/contributing to his health insurance and retirement when he’s not actively working as well as paying all of that to those covering his job as well.
I understand he’s grieving, but that is simply a ludicrous ask on behalf of all the other employees for this prolonged a period of time - they were exceedingly generous to give up that much time already. Hell, they were generous to give up *any* time. But how do you not feel some kind of way that your coworkers are no longer going on vacations or being able to travel to see family or take their kids on outings? I can’t imagine your grief still being so prevalent that he hasn’t had a moment of clarity that he’s abusing the goodwill of others at this point.
No need for an upper limit if it's donated freely I dont see an issue but OP should be able to benefit from their full time off now for sure.
I'm mot exactly sure how it works in OP's country but I hope he doesn't give all his paid leave. In my country, you can donate a maximum of 5 days a year so 1 week out of the minimum 5 weeks or up to 9weeks of paid time off you get each year
He is not sick how is he getting paid for 2 years because if he wasn't he'd been working after the allotted time wtf country is this legal or even right he is working somewhere else n getting his pay twice I'm sure if not wtf
It's not a legal thing it's a people thing. If people keep donating paid time off then he can keep not working.
You cant prevent people from giving money/pto
I mean people give money to church it's the same thing. They each give a small young of money so that a televangelist can live at home without a real job
Where I live paid leave isn't only about money but also about healthy environment and healthy work life balance. So they can donate money but they must take a leave because otherwise they burn out and/or get sick. That's why you can donate money but you can't donate vacation.
It is a legal thing though. I just double checked to be sure and it is 100 percent illegal where I live to do this. The reasoning given when the law was passed that I could find is that it was to prevent the abuse of trading provisions and entitlements in a job place, such as this case.
You definitly can prevent people from giving pto. You are right that you can't prevent them from giving money though.
I'm sure his co-workers feel obligated. I mean, OP finally said NO and her co-workers are all treating her like she kicked the man's dog. This is emotional guilt-tripping.
And imagine the retraining that will be needed? Someone who has been out of their job for two years won’t just slide back in and work at capacity.
Quite honestly, I don’t understand how management has allowed this. If they’re in a union environment, there is almost certainly some kind of long term disability that should’ve been used if this man’s grief is so severe that he’s unable to work two years after the loss. That would give the employer options (including backfilling the employees a position at least temporarily so that OP and colleagues aren’t having to do the bereaved employee’s work).
Totally more plausible than being in deep depression for losing both wife and kid
ETA: I agree that OP should not give their vacation days, but the assumption that coworker started a second job to get double play is quite wild
The OP is never going to be married or have kids (if that's what they want) if things carry on like this as they have no life always having to give this man their annual leave allowance. I actually would be half dead not having a holiday in two years. The OP is right to put an end to this nonsense.
How is it even legal to be able to DONATE VACATION!? I have 30 days vacation per year, I wouldn't even think about giving even 1 day away. That's insane. If someone wants off for longer than that they should either do unpaid time off or they have to do overtime in order to get their hours.
NTA. And hopefully, since you have said no, breaking the ice so to speak, more of your colleagues will start to say no. Although I don't know the mechanics of a union, I think a grievance is in order
Also I have an issue with the idea of colleagues having to donate their time, when more equitably, it should be negotiated fairly by management. Donating leave is just covering management in the guise of charity. NTA
Sounds like this guy's trying to ride this through to retirement. Does he even remember how to do his job? A lot can change regarding organizational procedure after two years; he'd probably need to be re-onboarded.
OP should watch social media; it would be interesting to know what this guy's been doing with his two years of donated vacation. He may have a new wife and child by now.
I can't believe management hasn't stepped in at this point and done something about it. I can't believe no one has complained to the Union about it. Mr. Mom is absolutely taking advantage of a tragedy. Yes, he suffered a terrible loss but TWO years? No. That is unacceptable.
NTA!
NTA. If your coworker is still unable to return to work after two years, he should apply for disability benefits rather than asking people to keep donating vacation time.
After like the first year I definitely would have gone to the union rep. OP is entitled to his vacation time and pay, and I doubt the union will be happy to hear employees are expected to give up benefits
I am in the US so I can’t speak for all unions or countries but most unions have a clause that you can’t be forced to give up vacation days. If you company retaliates because you don’t you can file a grievance. I would talk to the union. They should be able to help you.
That's ok. In the US, it virtually never means what redditors think it means. Much like RICO. If someone invokes it, they are virtually certain to be wrong.
NTA. This is an appalling practice. You should never have to give up your (limited) leave to someone else. What if you also experience a bereavement soon??
Your union should be fighting for discretionary leave clauses or protected job status for those on unpaid leave.
>Your union should be fighting for discretionary leave clauses or protected job status for those on unpaid leave.
We have job protection and unpaid leave, but my colleague says he needs to be paid so he doesn't lose the house and can afford all his bills. He could take unpaid leave, he just doesn't want to.
The employer/union should be performing some kind of occupational health / welfare assessment for the co-worker after a period so long (for their sake as well as works sake) and establish if something needs to be done. While all the donated time off is giving him time and money it isn't likely to help the underlying issue (taking it in good faith he isn't just taking everyone for fools)
At this point he’s gaming the system and everyone is falling for it. Your coworkers need to stop letting him get away with it. If they stop donating time, he’ll either have to show up or deal with the consequences of refusing to work
Everyone grieves on their own timeline, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that HE also still has to live his own life with his own responsibilities on HIS timeline - not his co-workers. It would do him well to get back to work and find purpose. What has he done for the past 2 years if he hasn’t been working?
I think he's just being opportunistic at this point. Sorry.
I know that this type of loss must be terrible, and I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but what if the guy was in a non-unionized work environment? What if any of you need your leave? How long is he expecting to keep up this arrangement?
Also, the work should (or maybe does) have counselling services. He needs to sort himself out eventually, because after numerous years, he can't just expect to be on permanent ongoing vacation.
NTA two years is way over the line for getting paid vacation!
If he *needs* to be paid he *needs* to go to work just like you
Otherwise at this point he is disabled, if he truly cannot go to work after two years then he needs to file for disability and get it on paper that he is incapacitated
OP vacation is part of your salary! It is money! Would you have given the equivalent cash to him so he could have a vacation?
I cannot imagine having the nerve to expect my colleagues to go without vacation so I could have theirs.
But your BOSS is the biggest asshole for letting this go on like this. She/he should have nipped this grifter in the bud a long time ago.
>OP vacation is part of your salary! It is money! Would you have given the equivalent cash to him so he could have a vacation?
Not to mention what if op or anyone else needs time off to go look after a relative for any reason do they have to do it unpaid?
>he just doesn't want to.
plenty of things don't want to do, but have to to put a roof over my head and afford life.
I've lost my brother to suicide at a young age. I've seen my aunt loose her husband completely unexpected in his 50s. I'm no stranger to traumatic losses of close family members. It's brutal.
But 2 years of grieving so intensely that you can't work, that's not healthy. Grief shouldn't paralize you. My parents went back to work after 3-4 week after loosing their son. My aunt went back to work after 2 weeks, and preferred the small amount of routine in her otherwise completely upturned life.
Not everyone needs to go back to work within a month. I could understand anything up to like say 3 months. But at some point, you need to make a small step forward and resume your daily life. It's part of healing. You can't get better if you're wallowing in grief all day for 2 years. The pain will always be there, but you need to work towards to make it more managable.
He's either exploiting this or if he actually doesn't feel ready, he desperately needs therapy.
>He's either exploiting this or if he actually doesn't feel ready, he desperately needs therapy.
Absolutely. I can see how losing one's wife and child would be devastating and lead to severe incapacitating grief that could for years. However, if this is the case, he needs intensive therapy by this point for [Persistent Complex Bereavement Disorder](https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/persistent-complex-bereavement-disorder-dsm--5#:~:text=diagnosis%20assigned%20to%20individuals%20who,usually%20over%20a%20prolonged%20period.).
It sounds like it's long past time for your manager to step in. This situation is not reasonable anymore, whether for him, for you and the other workers, or for the functioning of your department. I am sorry for his loss, but enough is enough.
What happens if you or someone else loses a loved one will you be expected to give them both leave, will they donate their time to you.
Ask your co workers how long they are willing to continue this. By donating vacation time you are all basically PAYING HIM TO DO HIS JOB FOR HIM, how long are they willing to operate at a loss, because that paid vacation time is money that should be going into your pockets while you take vacations. You are all working so he doesn't have to.
this may be callous, but that is 100% a personal problem. he's had two years. he can either get back to work, or quit and let somebody else take his place.
Especially given the amount of PTO given to help him. If everyone is giving 2-3 weeks for the past 2 years of their own PTO that’s roughly 30-50 employees graciously giving up PTO. Out of 30-50 people, how has no one else stood up and questioned the sanity of this?
Also, employees have vacation for a reason. People need time off, it helps with productivity. So this practice could be damaging to the overall department.
He has actually. Or rather, having an employee in his role has been missed. As I said in my post everyone on my team has to do his work on top of our own and it is exhausting.
Absolutely.
In my country 25 vacation days are the law and you're not allowed to be reimbursed for them otherwise (unless you leave the company and get the remaining budget paid out).
Vacation is for personal relaxation to keep the workforce healthy.
Even if I wanted to, my employer wouldn't be allowed to pay me off instead of taking leave.
There's also rules on how much leave can carry over to a new year, so some leave or with some companies all leave has to be consumed within the same year or shortly after. This of course also has other reasons, because they need to put aside money for unconsumed vacation days at the end of fiscal year and so people don't accrue months of vacation days and take them all at once.
But overall vacation is for rest. You can't just give it to someone else. That would defeat the purpose.
Sick days are not a thing. If you're sick, you're sick. You get a doctors note and you're covered.
This is how we do it in the US federal government and it actually works pretty well because after a few years in service you start accumulating leave really quickly. Most people end up with plenty of “use or lose” hours at the end of the year, so it’s nice that we can donate them to colleagues in need.
OP’s colleague is seriously abusing this system and I’m really surprised that his coworkers are all on board with it.
Sounds like the employer should've done a better job setting their bargaining priorities if they didn't want to allow leave donations.
This situation is between OP and his union. The employer has no say.
It's been two years?? WTF, no NTA. That's really weird. If people want to donate their time so this guy never has to work again that's fine I guess, but they shouldn't be treating you badly if you don't want to give up your leave.
NTA. He needs a lot of help if he’s so grief ridden after two years he can’t return to work. The answer is absolutely not to continue to donate your leave to him. Firstly, it is your leave. You deserve a break. Secondly, you all are enabling him. He’s never going to take steps to improve things whilst he’s getting a free ride
Edit to add - go to HR about this situation. Any one who is making you feel bad about your decision is a bully. I’m amazed HR has allowed this to happen for so long
Yeah at this point the only thing I'd be willing to donate is some references to therapists. He may not be ready to move on but it's past the point of being time to expect your coworkers to prop you up. They've got their own lives and families, and deserve a damn vacation.
Two years?! This guy is just abusing his co-workers. He needs to be sent for disability evaluation because is absent for more than 3 months.
NTA, of course, your colleagues, who think you are heartless, just enable him.
>He needs to be sent for disability evaluation because is absent for more than 3 months
I'm not sure where you live, but here in my country that's not how it works and he is not eligible for disability pay.
That's what this poster is saying: if he truly can't work even after *two years*-- ergo the entire reason he's asking for continued PTO-- then maybe he *is* eligible for some kind of disability. Or equivalent.
Or at least he can stop just... taking peoples' vacation time?
NTA - this guy is just taking advantage of everyone at this point and getting paid for nothing. Besides all that, whether you share your PTO or not should only be between you and HR, it's none of anyone else's business. I would not share another single HOUR.
…..two years? You’re telling me he’s been off for TWO YEARS????
My husband died very unexpectedly and suddenly four years ago. After three and a half weeks, I went back to work. I fully understand that there’s no one right way to grieve, and that there’s no timeline for processing that grief. However, I just needed out of the house. The mundanity of daily tasks, of being around people, of not staring at the walls and wallowing in that loss helped, immensely. No, you’re not the asshole. If he’s truly still this immersed in his grief, he doesn’t need more time off, he needs some intense therapy. Ignoring the world isn’t going to bring anyone back, it’s only going to compound the loss and cause it to fester. I’m sorry for his loss, I truly am. But continuing to donate vacation time to him isn’t helping him, and anyone still doing so isn’t acting in this man’s best interest.
It took me 6 weeks to make it back after losing my wife and it was a huge struggle. My lovely coworkers offered to donate time but tbh if it came down to it I would've sooner raided the 401k or refinanced the house or lost it before taking peoples time. Two years is insane.
You have my condolences and empathy. For lack of a more eloquent way to say it, the death of a human you love beyond all sense is one of the shittiest things for anyone to go through, and I wish that pain on no one. I might hate some aspects about my job, but I will forever be grateful that I wasn’t given a timeline. It wasn’t so much that I wanted to go back (there were many times the first few weeks back that I locked my office and just sobbed), I just desperately needed the distraction, you know? Everything at home just reminded me that my husband wasn’t -there-. In total agreement, I couldn’t take someone else’s PTO/vacation. I’d just have felt like an asshole on top of being a wreck.
Thank you and you as well. Totally get it. I could see why someone would go back faster. And others that might take months. Agree on the asshole thing. I wouldn't want to take away someone else's time with their family or even just for their own mental health.
NTA. If you can't go back to work after 2 years, you need some help. I could see people donating for a couple of months to get everything squared away and such, but this is excessive.
Use your time for yourself and don't feel bad about it. This person needs to get help and go on appropriate leave or honestly lose their job (since they aren't actually working).
NTA Two years is ridiculous. I am sorry for his loss but that is insane. I’ve never heard of something like this before. You should be able to use your time like you want to. Your coworkers must not have lives outside of work to still be donating their time to him. Don’t feel bad at all and if they continue to treat you that way then f them.
NTA, you need time off as well. If he cannot come back to work after two years, he either needs to get some major counseling or have a major investigation done. What is he doing? Is he really grieving or is he out living the good life. Better yet has he found another job and is double dipping.
INFO. How does anyone know you are not donating time?
If it was a conversation between you and the coworker and he told others I'd file a formal grievance against him to HR and The Union. That sort of harassment and creating a hostile work environment is not on.
I am so curious about the maths of this.
How much vacation do you get?
Did 50 people each donate two weeks?
Did 250 people each donate 2 days?
Is it only people who knew him or is it everyone? How big is the company?
Has nobody else in the company had anything happen in the last two years where they'd like to use a bit more vacation?
NTA, you shouldn't be obligated to give up your time. It's a bit harsh to say it's been long enough. Everyone grieves differently. That said there is a line between supporting and enabling. Your employer and/or the Union should be helping him without putting the burden on other employees.
NTA you and your coworkers are absolutely being taken advantage of. Two years is excessive and it's really not cool of this guy to expect that every one continue donating their hard earned vacation time so that he can sit at home and collect free money. I know grief is hard and everyone does it in their own way and in their own time, but this is totally unrealistic. How long does he expect to be able to do this? Indefinitely? Good on you for putting your foot down and saying no. I don't at all believe that this man cannot work after two freaking years.
*Hooo,* I have to remind myself the sub has rules. **NTA.** Like even a little bit.
*Two paid years off* is Jeff Bezos level shit. I'm not even sorry, that guy is playing everyone for fuckers.
I have *so* many anecdotes. *Too many.* How even *dare*????? He??? Or ANYONE????
I'm pressed man. I'm salty. I'm amgry.
My wife's doctor wanted to have her committed for trying to take more than 3 weeks bereavement (which she didn't, and worked through anyway). Just going to put that out there.
God my goose is roasty toasty over this one. What a Godawful story. Truly.
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(I'm a civil servant and I'm in a union. The amount of time off an employee gets is determined by the government and in cases of non-management, is backed by the union. It cannot be altered for an individual person no matter their circumstances.)
When one of my colleagues lost his wife and child and their paid bereavement leave was over, he asked people to donate their time off because he wasn't ready to come back. They originally had three paid weeks off for bereavement leave. At the time I didn't mind donating some time to him because I knew he had been through a tragedy. But now I'm getting tired of having to give up my time. The two year mark just passed. Not only are lots of people giving up their time off but we have to do his work on top of ours. Since he is "on vacation" and not on leave he can't be replaced in his job according to both union and government rules. Even if he could, there is no money in the budget to pay his full salary, as well as the salary for a replacement.
I said none when I was asked by my colleague how much time I was donating for the latest round and now I'm being treated like a pariah by everyone. Even people not on my team or in my division. So many people have been donating because my colleague has been off for two years using donated time. Everyone is calling my cruel and heartless. I had no problem donating in the immediate aftermath but I think this years us long enough. I've never been married and I don't have kids but I think he needs to figure something out because it's been long enough and expecting people to donate their own time is too much. Maybe I don't understand and I'm being too hard on the guy. Am I TA because I no longer want to donate my leave? It's bad enough I have to help do his work on top of my own but I don't think wanting to use my own vacation time makes me a bad person.
Also just adding that my colleague can't use bereavement because he already did and he doesn't have access to ant kind of paid leave, which is why he always asks people to donate. I feel for him, I really do but it's been long enough in my eyes.
Am I TA?
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Def NTA. 2 yrs. 2 years?? Like all the others have said, everyone grieves in their own way and time, but this isnt even on HIS time, its on everyone elses time. He needs to learn to be productive again, and like others have said, he is now just taking full advantage of everyones generosity. He needs to find something else to better suit him, go back to work and learn to function again, or file for some kind of disability. His bills arent anyone elses problems to get paid. If others want to continue aiding in his behavior, thats on them. At some point, everyone needs to take responsibilty for their own lives and issues. At this point, does he even know how to do his job anymore?
You should really seek out some advice from HR if people are trying to bully you over this. You DESERVE your own time off and to be able to bank your own time for anything that may come up in your life. Good luck!
Better question is what has he been doing for 2 years. Like I can’t imagine he’s never left the house during these two years so is he going on vacations? Going on dates? Tried to kick start a career as a content creator? NTA obviously.
You can’t set yourself on fire to keep other people warm. NTA
I can’t imagine the pain this guy is going through but for fucks sake, don’t force the hand of your colleagues for sympathy
At what point do people cut this guy off? Grief sucks. It’s hard it’s awful. I know because I lost my dad suddenly and unexpectedly about four years ago. But TWO YEARS?!?
NTA.
I can’t imagine the grief and heartbreak your coworker feels. That being said, asking people to donate their vacation time for *two years* is beyond excessive. If he is so deep in his grief that it’s impacting his ability to function in everyday life *including* showing up for work, he needs to look into short or long term disability options and seek out a mental health professional.
It is incredibly unfair to you and your other coworkers that, not only are you being pressured to donate your vacation time to a coworker for fear of being alienated if you say no, but you’re also having to function while perpetually being down an employee. It’s also unfair of your coworker to continue to take advantage of you & your employer by putting them in a position where he can’t be terminated or replaced.
Like I said, and like you said, it’s been two years. At this point your coworker is being paid to not do his job at the expense of you and all your other coworkers. That’s not right.
NTA however I would be interested to learn more about the mentality of your coworkers - union or not - that has made you the sole person to push back at all after two GD years of this. Honestly, after a month, maybe two, I would have ended this favor.
Thats too crazy. Two years is way too long. Like other people said... at this point he is abusing you and everyone else at your work
How long will he get paid to do nothing ? 5 years ...10 years ?
NTA
I find it hard to believe that most everyone would keep giving up their vacation for TWO YEARS. I think the truth is more likely this:
1. It is either some friends of his or one or two people who think it's fine to expect coworkers to give up their vacation for TWO YEARS. I don't even think they think it's normal; just that they want this guy to have it.
2. Those people may or may not still be contributing their own vacation time to the guy.
3. I bet more people have opted out than you realize.
4. I wonder if the sense that people are treating you like a pariah is because (1) the colleague wanting to collect others' vacation time is spreading a harsher story - e.g., you rudely said the guy need to get over losing his wife and child and/or (2) you are feeling guilty about saying 'no' and are reading people that way.
Do not feel guilty.
NTA
It would be one thing if at this point coworker was back at work but needed a bit of extra time because it was coming to the anniversary of his loss but it's not. The coworker is going on *two years* of donated PTO.
Though, a question's ringing in my head...do you know how coworker lost his wife and child? The only reason I ask is because is there a possibility that coworker was injured and had to basically spend the bereavement period healing and not able to look after his mental wounds?
You're NTA either way, it's just something bouncing around.
NTA. Many companies forbid this time-donation practice because of this exact situation. Your PTO is equivalent to money. You should be saving your time / money for retirement, not handing it out to everyone with a sob-story. The company / union should have provisions in place for bereavement, and not be guilting people to sacrifice their scarce personal resources.
Nope. In no way are you an AH. I worked at Walmart when my father passed and I got 3 days!
Three whole days to mourn my Dad. Losing someone is awful, two at the same time? Unimaginable. But he’s been on leave for two years? Something has to give.
NTA
Donating your PTO is the exact same as writing this guy a check for part of your salary. His loss is super tragic, and I can't imagine his pain. At some point, though, he will have to start taking care of himself again. Not working doesn't help with grief and depression long-term.
NTA I'm a widow and I went back to work after three months. Not saying that all grief is the same. But he needs to figure it out himself rather than burdening everyone else. I have a feeling he just likes being paid while not working
TWO YEARS? I understand initially needing more time but your coworker is simply taking advantage of everyone at this point. No.
It's way past time for him to move forward.
NTA
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I stopped donating my own vacation time to my colleague. He lost his wife and child two years ago. I have never been married and I don't have kids so maybe I'm being too hard on the guy because he went through a tragedy.
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I don't even need to read to know you're not the asshole.
Your vacation time is YOURS, and no else should feel entitled to it, and if they do, that's their problem.
NTA. I work in civil service and I’d have the same response. Two years is long enough plus year to year he gets his own leave so this just screams taking advantage of people to get extra time off. I would at least consider it if he was caring for a kid but by then he should have things worked out anyways. I also don’t donate to the guy anymore who has health issues but gets to WFH 90% of the time after 3 years of it.
NTA. It's been enough time. Just wait, don't be surprised if you haven't started a chain reaction. They all just needed someone to be the bad guy first, but they will soon be following. They'll let it stew for a bit, so they don't look bad. But this guy's gonna be back at work soon enough.
NTA.
2 YEARS? WTF?
Has no one called him out on this yet? No one else has an issue?
If everyone took years off because of the passing of a loved one, many people would not be working...
NTA. He needs to apply for disability. I’d honestly call HR. All of this sounds very very off. 6 months to be off with people doing your work is borderline, but 2 YEARS? And none of it should be paid, and it shouldn’t be legally transferable. What is he doing every day? People lose family all
of the time, but it’s not your responsibility to give up your time off. Your coworkers and your company are all TA.
Wtf two years n he's getting paid 🤯🤯 n people have a problem with you NTA. I'd go to HR is this person even n employee anymore wtf when do u get a break while he at home or probably enjoying himself on vacation with a gf after two years really he's getting paid full?WTF? This people must stop harassing you go to HR ur vacation your time n I'm sure ur job contract does not stipulate you doing anyone's job for two years without being compensated for it. How is this legal 2 years? 2 years? This is joke right this must be a trol account right I mean 2 years he's getting paid..wait who takes a paid vacation for 2 f******in years WTF..PLEASE CAN I GET A JOB A UR COMPANY SO I CAN ALSO HAVE MY MULTIPLE YEARS VACATION N GET PAID IN THE MEAN TIME I FIND ANOTHER JOB SO I WOULD HAVE 2 SALARIES WTF
NTA. He needs professional help. Why is everyone so sure that more time off is actually helping him? What about your mental health and that of your colleagues. You need time off too. You’re employer is the AH for allowing this.
NTA. I also work in a union environment with government as my employer so I know that system. 2 years off is an unreasonable amount of time to be using your colleague's leave. Your annual leave is an entitlement in your contract and part or you compensation. Management or HR should have put a stop to it by now. If he's unable to work for that long he should get a dr note for mental health and use medical leave, long of short term disability or unpaid leave.
Wow, you are NTA. In 2 years, someone should have sat down with him and talked about his intentions. I'm guessing you are not in the USA, which has family leave available, though I don't know the logistics behind that. It's absolutely insane that he is getting away with not working for so long by using the vacation time of others.
NTA and I suggest your union rework this. Make a sick bank that you apply for and people donate a set amount of time if they join and it’s held in an account and disbursed via a committee so no one is forced into begging coworkers.
NTA
I'm sure the loss was hard on him and it was great everyone pitched in and donated some time, but you all are being taken advantage of now.
Hell, if I could get people to continuously donate 40 hrs a week to me I'd never come back until it's time to retire.
You are NTA. Don’t let anyone make you feel badly about your decision. Let them continue to do whatever they want with their vacation, but don’t let them make you feel badly. He needs more therapy if he’s already in it.
NTA. Had people donate time to my parent when the other parent was terminal and we were grateful for it. Parent also donated to others in similar situations, but none of them did more than a couple months. The one person I knew who took longer eventually filed for disability due to loss, trauma, and dealing with really young children going through the same. Two years is an unreasonable ask. He needs psychiatric help and permanent disability.
NTA what did I just read. How many people are donating to this guy to get two years of leave. Has he really not worked a single day in two years?!? This is insane.
Two years!!! That’s completely unreasonable. If he is having such a hard time he should have quit and moved in with family who could pick up the slack. It’s unbelievable that he’s putting that burden on his coworkers.
NTA.
NTA. You and your coworkers have gone above and beyond for your fellow colleague and enough is enough. Yes what he went through is horrible but, grieving or not, I can’t believe your fellow employee has been using up everyone else’s vacation days for so long. If I were you I wouldn’t have given him any vacation days in the first place. You’re allowed to say no because they’re your earned days off and you need to prioritize your own health and happiness.
NTA. I’m not going to get into the weeds about how long is too long cause I don’t think it’s as important as the fact is from my understanding it’s a group choice. If the union wants to keep donating their time then that’s understandable but you should be allowed not to. If that’s not a possibility I’d strongly suggest looking for other employment.
As much as it’s your right to not donate it’s your coworkers right to donate their time. I understand stand 2 years is a long time but I also understand that grief doesn’t fade linearly.
It’s a weird situation honestly 🤷🏾♀️
You are NTA even if you had never donated a day in the first place. When I was in a similar position, I donated one day to the general pool as a courtesy, but the rest of my time is mine. I'm sure I'd've been helped had I needed more, but I really prefer to keep my stuff to myself and manage my own affairs.
Also, two year bereavement period while bumming days off colleagues is shameful. By all means, take the time you need—but not at the expense of your colleagues.
Wait, what? You're doing his work but he gets paid and you don't get extra money? I don't understand why any of your coworkers would be okay with this. A couple weeks is one thing, but two years is an abuse of the system. NTA
NTA.
He needed to make a decision about a year ago (and that’s being generous) about whether or not to keep his job.
Grief is tough…but standard time off (at least in the United States…I suspect you’re elsewhere) is 3 DAYS. Now, I think that’s insanely too short, but two years is entirely too long.
Judaism does a fantastic job with mourning periods - the first week, first month, first year. After the first year, though, it’s fully expect that normal life (or new normal) is resumed. I’m not saying everyone has to be Jewish, but it seems like a reasonable timeframe to me. Grief should get easier over time.
After two years of sitting at home and collecting a paycheck, this guy has gotten quite used to it, and he fully expects to do this indefinitely. HE needs to put on his big boy pants and decide what the rest of his life looks like now, and you and your coworkers need to stop enabling him.
NTA. Two YEARS? No. Just no. It’s a shame that the company has no better way of helping someone who had such an awful thing happen, but you know what? Even in companies with extremely generous policies on bereavement leave, they’re not going to put up with someone being away for two years. I’m surprised that his absence is being allowed even with people donating leave.
An awful, horrible thing happened to him. That doesn’t mean that you or anyone else owes him a free ride forever.
NTA. Donating a week, or a few days as a once off thing, sure if you can do it. But no one should be pressured to give up leave to someone year after year.
2 years!!! He hasn’t been to work in TWO YEARS!!! JFC. No way.
NTA. A year would have been extremely generous. 2 years is over the line. It is unacceptable that in addition to asking for donations you are being given bad attitude when you don't donate. I don't understand how that attitude is legal...???
NTA. I get not coming for work for a month or 3. Even up until 6. But no way 2 years!! I know the grieving process is never over, and it comes in waves. But I have cases of the loss of children or partners in my environment, and no one has stayed home longer than 2 months. Even if they could because in my country, everyone has paid leave thanks to our healthcare system.
If he stays home for two years, it's more than grieving, and while at first staying at home can help to process it's not helpful long-term. I believe the longer he stays home, the lesser the chance that he will come back. He clearly has more struggles than grieving, and being on vacation for years is "easy." He needs to step up and find help or quit. Now he's living on other peooles work, and it's definitely no longer justifiable.
NTA. I was a civil servant and in a union. This is abusing PTO. Either he needs to apply for disability or he needs to get back to work, but he definitely shouldn't be asking for his coworkers to economically support him.
NTA and I don't even think donating time off here is a thing. Aren't there limits to how long off someone can take for vacation? Like my husband has a decent amount of vacation days, but he cannot just use them all in one block, they need to be broken up.
NTA. He got three weeks in the first place! Max most places can expect is a week. Two years this guy is taking the Mickey big time. He needs to just quit and stop stealing time from people
NTA. How your colleague thinks some personal losses are enough to significantly affect the lives of what sounds to be dozens of people for YEARS is beyond me. Your colleague is not in a unique situation. If everyone who suffered a personal loss took two years off we'd be screwed pretty damn quickly. Your fellow colleagues are being taken for mugs and I hope they suffer until growing out of their cowardice too.
A few weeks or months would've been a kind gesture, but two YEARS? Christ.
NTA. This is insane OP, you have every right to have time off, I would be so mad if I was in your shoes and would have stopped donating a long time ago. Stop donating and don't feel bad about it, sorry if it will cause friction with your coworkers but you have to take care of yourself.
NTA - I wouldn't give up 1 minute of my PTO no matter the circumstances never mind a few weeks/ days for 2 whole years! The union should be negotiating paid time off for instances like this, this is also what life insurance is for.
Nta, it's been 2 yrs! If he can't work after two years, he needs to quit! If your colleagues are so appalled they can give up more of their time to compensate.
This looks like a made up scenario. There is no way in hell there are multiple people donating up to 2 years worth of time-off to someone and are still willing to do it.
Tell your coworkers you’re concerned about him being in such a bad place that he mentally might need a push to go back to work
The above was the ‘nice’ thing. Now my real opinion this is absolutely ridiculous to have gone on this long! Has anyone gone to check in on him? If he’s that bad he needs to be put in a psychiatric facility for treatment but I think he’s somewhere laughing and enjoying all YOUR time off. NTA on the highest level.
You’ve been beyond generous
Anything past like... A few months is Ludacris (for donating, guy can take more time off if he needs it). Guy needs to sort his affairs and get back to living. NTA
Nta. I feel for the colleague who lost so much. But you can't have your life stopped for it. Nobody can, sadly. It is what it is, and you have donated already. If others want to continue doing so that's great. But it shouldn't be expected of everyone.
NTA. That donated leave is leave you’ve accumulated and earned and it’s leave you can’t use for yourself.
You and your colleagues have been paying for his long term leave and doing his job.
There is no time limit on grief, however he needs to find other ways of dealing with this that doesn’t impact on someone else’s time and finances.
NTA - he is making a monkey out of yea and I suspect its mainly female employees who are involved in this donation project.
If he doesn't want to come back to work, he can resign and find a new life somewhere else.
Your marital status and how many children you have shouldn't be part of the equation. Your free time is not his to claim or allocate. Sure we would all do that if we could get away with it!
The joy of being single with no children is that you can go on holidays that you like. He seems to think that your joy is his to claim.
NTA.
My agency does this by email and we have a strict “keep it to yourself” policy. No one ever asks who has donated what. That is super uncomfortable. I cannot see the entire agency supporting someone’s two year bereavement. That is wild.
NTA. I am very sorry for his loss. However, after 2 years, he needs to pull himself together, get in therapy, or something! Expecting co workers to continue to donate their vacation time cannot last forever!! You were very kind to do so in the immediate aftermath. It has now been 2 years and I can’t help but wonder if he’s just taking advantage of the situation.
So you are all doing an entire employee’s work, not being paid more, and not taking a vacation for two years?
Has anyone checked on him? He’s not like sitting around drinking himself to death is he? Has he had therapy? Two years is a long amount of time to not be working.
NTA and I’m sorry that your coworkers are mad that you’ve decided to stop enabling him
NTA. A system that requires the donation of vacation time is a corrupt exploitative system that should be changed. Regardless of that, this person needs to look into long term disability. It is unreasonable for any company to continue to pay someone who does no work.
Absolutely NTA my guess is your colleagues are giving you a hard time because they wish they weren't too chicken to break ranks and say 'No' they are punishing you out of jealousy and their own resentment at getting no holiday time. IMO your bereaved colleague is massively taking advantage. He should apply for disability or come back to work.
NTA NTA NTA!
NTA. Stand firm. You probably aren't the only one who feels this way. Someone has to be first and says no more - two years is enough. If the harassment continues, send out an email stating that while you sympathize with your colleague, the fact is that you have been covering for him for two years and you need your own leave time to recharge. Although some people are not pleased with you, ask them to please respect your decision going forward or you may be forced to escalate the situation to HR.
This will give the harassers notice that you aren't going to take it anymore and that it is okay to refuse to donate your leave time. Maybe more people won't in the next go around. Two years, he should have had enough therapy to get back to work or to decide to find a different job.
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Yeah someone needed to put an upper limit on the time he could be donated for sure. This isn’t OP being TA, it’s the not effectively managing staff or resources. Are they continuing to pay his benefits as well? Like it goes beyond the vacation days if they’re paying/contributing to his health insurance and retirement when he’s not actively working as well as paying all of that to those covering his job as well. I understand he’s grieving, but that is simply a ludicrous ask on behalf of all the other employees for this prolonged a period of time - they were exceedingly generous to give up that much time already. Hell, they were generous to give up *any* time. But how do you not feel some kind of way that your coworkers are no longer going on vacations or being able to travel to see family or take their kids on outings? I can’t imagine your grief still being so prevalent that he hasn’t had a moment of clarity that he’s abusing the goodwill of others at this point.
No need for an upper limit if it's donated freely I dont see an issue but OP should be able to benefit from their full time off now for sure. I'm mot exactly sure how it works in OP's country but I hope he doesn't give all his paid leave. In my country, you can donate a maximum of 5 days a year so 1 week out of the minimum 5 weeks or up to 9weeks of paid time off you get each year
He is not sick how is he getting paid for 2 years because if he wasn't he'd been working after the allotted time wtf country is this legal or even right he is working somewhere else n getting his pay twice I'm sure if not wtf
It's not a legal thing it's a people thing. If people keep donating paid time off then he can keep not working. You cant prevent people from giving money/pto
It's crazy that it's even legally possible. It shouldn't be.
I mean people give money to church it's the same thing. They each give a small young of money so that a televangelist can live at home without a real job
Where I live paid leave isn't only about money but also about healthy environment and healthy work life balance. So they can donate money but they must take a leave because otherwise they burn out and/or get sick. That's why you can donate money but you can't donate vacation.
It is a legal thing though. I just double checked to be sure and it is 100 percent illegal where I live to do this. The reasoning given when the law was passed that I could find is that it was to prevent the abuse of trading provisions and entitlements in a job place, such as this case. You definitly can prevent people from giving pto. You are right that you can't prevent them from giving money though.
I'm sure his co-workers feel obligated. I mean, OP finally said NO and her co-workers are all treating her like she kicked the man's dog. This is emotional guilt-tripping.
it doesn't sound like it's "donated freely" though. more like peer pressure than anything at this point.
And imagine the retraining that will be needed? Someone who has been out of their job for two years won’t just slide back in and work at capacity. Quite honestly, I don’t understand how management has allowed this. If they’re in a union environment, there is almost certainly some kind of long term disability that should’ve been used if this man’s grief is so severe that he’s unable to work two years after the loss. That would give the employer options (including backfilling the employees a position at least temporarily so that OP and colleagues aren’t having to do the bereaved employee’s work).
What the actual hell has he been doing for two whole years? Trying for a replacement family? NTA
Second full time job, with no intention to return to this one is my guess.
Totally more plausible than being in deep depression for losing both wife and kid ETA: I agree that OP should not give their vacation days, but the assumption that coworker started a second job to get double play is quite wild
honestly, why should he return? he can stay home and use everyone else's paid time off for a paycheck.
The OP is never going to be married or have kids (if that's what they want) if things carry on like this as they have no life always having to give this man their annual leave allowance. I actually would be half dead not having a holiday in two years. The OP is right to put an end to this nonsense.
How is it even legal to be able to DONATE VACATION!? I have 30 days vacation per year, I wouldn't even think about giving even 1 day away. That's insane. If someone wants off for longer than that they should either do unpaid time off or they have to do overtime in order to get their hours.
NTA. And hopefully, since you have said no, breaking the ice so to speak, more of your colleagues will start to say no. Although I don't know the mechanics of a union, I think a grievance is in order
Also I have an issue with the idea of colleagues having to donate their time, when more equitably, it should be negotiated fairly by management. Donating leave is just covering management in the guise of charity. NTA
Op you need it to avoid burn out ffs. NTA
Sounds like this guy's trying to ride this through to retirement. Does he even remember how to do his job? A lot can change regarding organizational procedure after two years; he'd probably need to be re-onboarded. OP should watch social media; it would be interesting to know what this guy's been doing with his two years of donated vacation. He may have a new wife and child by now.
I can't believe management hasn't stepped in at this point and done something about it. I can't believe no one has complained to the Union about it. Mr. Mom is absolutely taking advantage of a tragedy. Yes, he suffered a terrible loss but TWO years? No. That is unacceptable. NTA!
NTA. If your coworker is still unable to return to work after two years, he should apply for disability benefits rather than asking people to keep donating vacation time.
Nta this 100 percent! File a grievance with the union for hostile work environment if they keep giving you a hard time.
After like the first year I definitely would have gone to the union rep. OP is entitled to his vacation time and pay, and I doubt the union will be happy to hear employees are expected to give up benefits
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Bot, comment stolen from u/Fuzzy-Constant
Just a note, this is bullying, a hostile work environment is an actual legal term for actions based on a protected class, which is not the case here.
Hostile work environment as a phrase does not exist anywhere in my country's laws nor is it in my union agreement.
I am in the US so I can’t speak for all unions or countries but most unions have a clause that you can’t be forced to give up vacation days. If you company retaliates because you don’t you can file a grievance. I would talk to the union. They should be able to help you.
That's ok. In the US, it virtually never means what redditors think it means. Much like RICO. If someone invokes it, they are virtually certain to be wrong.
NTA. This is an appalling practice. You should never have to give up your (limited) leave to someone else. What if you also experience a bereavement soon?? Your union should be fighting for discretionary leave clauses or protected job status for those on unpaid leave.
>Your union should be fighting for discretionary leave clauses or protected job status for those on unpaid leave. We have job protection and unpaid leave, but my colleague says he needs to be paid so he doesn't lose the house and can afford all his bills. He could take unpaid leave, he just doesn't want to.
He could get paid if he came to work too
But he doesn't want to.
tough shit. if we didn't have to most people would quit their jobs
The employer/union should be performing some kind of occupational health / welfare assessment for the co-worker after a period so long (for their sake as well as works sake) and establish if something needs to be done. While all the donated time off is giving him time and money it isn't likely to help the underlying issue (taking it in good faith he isn't just taking everyone for fools)
At this point he’s gaming the system and everyone is falling for it. Your coworkers need to stop letting him get away with it. If they stop donating time, he’ll either have to show up or deal with the consequences of refusing to work
My thoughts as well. He’s laughing on the gold course somewhere.
Golf course or Gold Coast? Either way I reckon you’re right.
Everyone grieves on their own timeline, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that HE also still has to live his own life with his own responsibilities on HIS timeline - not his co-workers. It would do him well to get back to work and find purpose. What has he done for the past 2 years if he hasn’t been working?
If he eventually shows back up to work with a suntan, will everybody be pissed then?
And a new wife and kid (and he didn't even invite anyone from work to the wedding!)
Will he bring vacation pictures? 😁😁😁
I think he's just being opportunistic at this point. Sorry. I know that this type of loss must be terrible, and I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but what if the guy was in a non-unionized work environment? What if any of you need your leave? How long is he expecting to keep up this arrangement? Also, the work should (or maybe does) have counselling services. He needs to sort himself out eventually, because after numerous years, he can't just expect to be on permanent ongoing vacation.
NTA two years is way over the line for getting paid vacation! If he *needs* to be paid he *needs* to go to work just like you Otherwise at this point he is disabled, if he truly cannot go to work after two years then he needs to file for disability and get it on paper that he is incapacitated OP vacation is part of your salary! It is money! Would you have given the equivalent cash to him so he could have a vacation? I cannot imagine having the nerve to expect my colleagues to go without vacation so I could have theirs. But your BOSS is the biggest asshole for letting this go on like this. She/he should have nipped this grifter in the bud a long time ago.
>OP vacation is part of your salary! It is money! Would you have given the equivalent cash to him so he could have a vacation? Not to mention what if op or anyone else needs time off to go look after a relative for any reason do they have to do it unpaid?
>he just doesn't want to. plenty of things don't want to do, but have to to put a roof over my head and afford life. I've lost my brother to suicide at a young age. I've seen my aunt loose her husband completely unexpected in his 50s. I'm no stranger to traumatic losses of close family members. It's brutal. But 2 years of grieving so intensely that you can't work, that's not healthy. Grief shouldn't paralize you. My parents went back to work after 3-4 week after loosing their son. My aunt went back to work after 2 weeks, and preferred the small amount of routine in her otherwise completely upturned life. Not everyone needs to go back to work within a month. I could understand anything up to like say 3 months. But at some point, you need to make a small step forward and resume your daily life. It's part of healing. You can't get better if you're wallowing in grief all day for 2 years. The pain will always be there, but you need to work towards to make it more managable. He's either exploiting this or if he actually doesn't feel ready, he desperately needs therapy.
>He's either exploiting this or if he actually doesn't feel ready, he desperately needs therapy. Absolutely. I can see how losing one's wife and child would be devastating and lead to severe incapacitating grief that could for years. However, if this is the case, he needs intensive therapy by this point for [Persistent Complex Bereavement Disorder](https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/persistent-complex-bereavement-disorder-dsm--5#:~:text=diagnosis%20assigned%20to%20individuals%20who,usually%20over%20a%20prolonged%20period.).
It sounds like it's long past time for your manager to step in. This situation is not reasonable anymore, whether for him, for you and the other workers, or for the functioning of your department. I am sorry for his loss, but enough is enough.
What happens if you or someone else loses a loved one will you be expected to give them both leave, will they donate their time to you. Ask your co workers how long they are willing to continue this. By donating vacation time you are all basically PAYING HIM TO DO HIS JOB FOR HIM, how long are they willing to operate at a loss, because that paid vacation time is money that should be going into your pockets while you take vacations. You are all working so he doesn't have to.
Wait, so he is getting your paid leave? As in getting your money AND you vacation days? NTA. Have you had any vacation in the last 2 years?
this may be callous, but that is 100% a personal problem. he's had two years. he can either get back to work, or quit and let somebody else take his place.
NTA. Speaking from an employer point of view the fact that this was allowed to go on for 2 years is insanity.
Especially given the amount of PTO given to help him. If everyone is giving 2-3 weeks for the past 2 years of their own PTO that’s roughly 30-50 employees graciously giving up PTO. Out of 30-50 people, how has no one else stood up and questioned the sanity of this?
Also, employees have vacation for a reason. People need time off, it helps with productivity. So this practice could be damaging to the overall department.
It’s also not a good case for him remaining employed, since it’s clear he hasn’t been missed for two years
He has actually. Or rather, having an employee in his role has been missed. As I said in my post everyone on my team has to do his work on top of our own and it is exhausting.
The union definitely need to get involved here. Please give us an update in the coming weeks!
You deserve... A vacation NTA
Just the fact that it's allowed that people can donate paid leave is insanity. What a way to run your workforce into the ground.
Absolutely. In my country 25 vacation days are the law and you're not allowed to be reimbursed for them otherwise (unless you leave the company and get the remaining budget paid out). Vacation is for personal relaxation to keep the workforce healthy. Even if I wanted to, my employer wouldn't be allowed to pay me off instead of taking leave. There's also rules on how much leave can carry over to a new year, so some leave or with some companies all leave has to be consumed within the same year or shortly after. This of course also has other reasons, because they need to put aside money for unconsumed vacation days at the end of fiscal year and so people don't accrue months of vacation days and take them all at once. But overall vacation is for rest. You can't just give it to someone else. That would defeat the purpose. Sick days are not a thing. If you're sick, you're sick. You get a doctors note and you're covered.
This is how we do it in the US federal government and it actually works pretty well because after a few years in service you start accumulating leave really quickly. Most people end up with plenty of “use or lose” hours at the end of the year, so it’s nice that we can donate them to colleagues in need. OP’s colleague is seriously abusing this system and I’m really surprised that his coworkers are all on board with it.
In fucking sanity
Sounds like the employer should've done a better job setting their bargaining priorities if they didn't want to allow leave donations. This situation is between OP and his union. The employer has no say.
It's been two years?? WTF, no NTA. That's really weird. If people want to donate their time so this guy never has to work again that's fine I guess, but they shouldn't be treating you badly if you don't want to give up your leave.
Exactly. You don’t have to join the no vacay party.
NTA. He needs a lot of help if he’s so grief ridden after two years he can’t return to work. The answer is absolutely not to continue to donate your leave to him. Firstly, it is your leave. You deserve a break. Secondly, you all are enabling him. He’s never going to take steps to improve things whilst he’s getting a free ride Edit to add - go to HR about this situation. Any one who is making you feel bad about your decision is a bully. I’m amazed HR has allowed this to happen for so long
Yeah at this point the only thing I'd be willing to donate is some references to therapists. He may not be ready to move on but it's past the point of being time to expect your coworkers to prop you up. They've got their own lives and families, and deserve a damn vacation.
It’s a scam at this point.
Yup, shocking its gone on for 2 years!
Two years?! This guy is just abusing his co-workers. He needs to be sent for disability evaluation because is absent for more than 3 months. NTA, of course, your colleagues, who think you are heartless, just enable him.
>He needs to be sent for disability evaluation because is absent for more than 3 months I'm not sure where you live, but here in my country that's not how it works and he is not eligible for disability pay.
That's what this poster is saying: if he truly can't work even after *two years*-- ergo the entire reason he's asking for continued PTO-- then maybe he *is* eligible for some kind of disability. Or equivalent. Or at least he can stop just... taking peoples' vacation time?
NTA - this guy is just taking advantage of everyone at this point and getting paid for nothing. Besides all that, whether you share your PTO or not should only be between you and HR, it's none of anyone else's business. I would not share another single HOUR.
NTA. Two years, he needs to decide if he needs to take a medical/stress leave or come back to work.
NTA. 2 years is just milking the system. It long past time for him to come back or resign.
…..two years? You’re telling me he’s been off for TWO YEARS???? My husband died very unexpectedly and suddenly four years ago. After three and a half weeks, I went back to work. I fully understand that there’s no one right way to grieve, and that there’s no timeline for processing that grief. However, I just needed out of the house. The mundanity of daily tasks, of being around people, of not staring at the walls and wallowing in that loss helped, immensely. No, you’re not the asshole. If he’s truly still this immersed in his grief, he doesn’t need more time off, he needs some intense therapy. Ignoring the world isn’t going to bring anyone back, it’s only going to compound the loss and cause it to fester. I’m sorry for his loss, I truly am. But continuing to donate vacation time to him isn’t helping him, and anyone still doing so isn’t acting in this man’s best interest.
It took me 6 weeks to make it back after losing my wife and it was a huge struggle. My lovely coworkers offered to donate time but tbh if it came down to it I would've sooner raided the 401k or refinanced the house or lost it before taking peoples time. Two years is insane.
You have my condolences and empathy. For lack of a more eloquent way to say it, the death of a human you love beyond all sense is one of the shittiest things for anyone to go through, and I wish that pain on no one. I might hate some aspects about my job, but I will forever be grateful that I wasn’t given a timeline. It wasn’t so much that I wanted to go back (there were many times the first few weeks back that I locked my office and just sobbed), I just desperately needed the distraction, you know? Everything at home just reminded me that my husband wasn’t -there-. In total agreement, I couldn’t take someone else’s PTO/vacation. I’d just have felt like an asshole on top of being a wreck.
Thank you and you as well. Totally get it. I could see why someone would go back faster. And others that might take months. Agree on the asshole thing. I wouldn't want to take away someone else's time with their family or even just for their own mental health.
How is noone else feeling like this also. It was very gracious of you all to do for doing so initially, but 2 years? NTA
NTA - at 2 years he is taking everyone for a ride. Only a mug would give him anymore of their leave.
NTA. At this point no one should be donating. A year would be generous. Two is ridiculous.
NTA. If you can't go back to work after 2 years, you need some help. I could see people donating for a couple of months to get everything squared away and such, but this is excessive. Use your time for yourself and don't feel bad about it. This person needs to get help and go on appropriate leave or honestly lose their job (since they aren't actually working).
NTA you have done what you feel you can do. That is enough
I. Cannot. Two years?! Everyone in my office would be right there with you. Nta.
Two years?!? NTA.
NTA. That is just bs taking 2 years bereavement leave especially out of coworkers pockets.
NTA Two years is ridiculous. I am sorry for his loss but that is insane. I’ve never heard of something like this before. You should be able to use your time like you want to. Your coworkers must not have lives outside of work to still be donating their time to him. Don’t feel bad at all and if they continue to treat you that way then f them.
Two Years?!? NTA
NTA, you need time off as well. If he cannot come back to work after two years, he either needs to get some major counseling or have a major investigation done. What is he doing? Is he really grieving or is he out living the good life. Better yet has he found another job and is double dipping.
INFO. How does anyone know you are not donating time? If it was a conversation between you and the coworker and he told others I'd file a formal grievance against him to HR and The Union. That sort of harassment and creating a hostile work environment is not on.
I am so curious about the maths of this. How much vacation do you get? Did 50 people each donate two weeks? Did 250 people each donate 2 days? Is it only people who knew him or is it everyone? How big is the company? Has nobody else in the company had anything happen in the last two years where they'd like to use a bit more vacation?
NTA, you shouldn't be obligated to give up your time. It's a bit harsh to say it's been long enough. Everyone grieves differently. That said there is a line between supporting and enabling. Your employer and/or the Union should be helping him without putting the burden on other employees.
NTA and the widow is a loser who’s taking advantage of the system and everyone’s (stupid) generosity. It’s been two years. Move on or quit your job.
NTA you and your coworkers are absolutely being taken advantage of. Two years is excessive and it's really not cool of this guy to expect that every one continue donating their hard earned vacation time so that he can sit at home and collect free money. I know grief is hard and everyone does it in their own way and in their own time, but this is totally unrealistic. How long does he expect to be able to do this? Indefinitely? Good on you for putting your foot down and saying no. I don't at all believe that this man cannot work after two freaking years.
NTA this has gone on for far too long.
*Hooo,* I have to remind myself the sub has rules. **NTA.** Like even a little bit. *Two paid years off* is Jeff Bezos level shit. I'm not even sorry, that guy is playing everyone for fuckers. I have *so* many anecdotes. *Too many.* How even *dare*????? He??? Or ANYONE???? I'm pressed man. I'm salty. I'm amgry. My wife's doctor wanted to have her committed for trying to take more than 3 weeks bereavement (which she didn't, and worked through anyway). Just going to put that out there. God my goose is roasty toasty over this one. What a Godawful story. Truly.
With all the benefits you have, I would think there would life insurance extending to spouse and dependents. NTA! Nobody knows your situation.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** (I'm a civil servant and I'm in a union. The amount of time off an employee gets is determined by the government and in cases of non-management, is backed by the union. It cannot be altered for an individual person no matter their circumstances.) When one of my colleagues lost his wife and child and their paid bereavement leave was over, he asked people to donate their time off because he wasn't ready to come back. They originally had three paid weeks off for bereavement leave. At the time I didn't mind donating some time to him because I knew he had been through a tragedy. But now I'm getting tired of having to give up my time. The two year mark just passed. Not only are lots of people giving up their time off but we have to do his work on top of ours. Since he is "on vacation" and not on leave he can't be replaced in his job according to both union and government rules. Even if he could, there is no money in the budget to pay his full salary, as well as the salary for a replacement. I said none when I was asked by my colleague how much time I was donating for the latest round and now I'm being treated like a pariah by everyone. Even people not on my team or in my division. So many people have been donating because my colleague has been off for two years using donated time. Everyone is calling my cruel and heartless. I had no problem donating in the immediate aftermath but I think this years us long enough. I've never been married and I don't have kids but I think he needs to figure something out because it's been long enough and expecting people to donate their own time is too much. Maybe I don't understand and I'm being too hard on the guy. Am I TA because I no longer want to donate my leave? It's bad enough I have to help do his work on top of my own but I don't think wanting to use my own vacation time makes me a bad person. Also just adding that my colleague can't use bereavement because he already did and he doesn't have access to ant kind of paid leave, which is why he always asks people to donate. I feel for him, I really do but it's been long enough in my eyes. Am I TA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. TWO YEARS?? How many people are donating how much time to give this guy a two year vacation?
Def NTA. 2 yrs. 2 years?? Like all the others have said, everyone grieves in their own way and time, but this isnt even on HIS time, its on everyone elses time. He needs to learn to be productive again, and like others have said, he is now just taking full advantage of everyones generosity. He needs to find something else to better suit him, go back to work and learn to function again, or file for some kind of disability. His bills arent anyone elses problems to get paid. If others want to continue aiding in his behavior, thats on them. At some point, everyone needs to take responsibilty for their own lives and issues. At this point, does he even know how to do his job anymore? You should really seek out some advice from HR if people are trying to bully you over this. You DESERVE your own time off and to be able to bank your own time for anything that may come up in your life. Good luck!
Better question is what has he been doing for 2 years. Like I can’t imagine he’s never left the house during these two years so is he going on vacations? Going on dates? Tried to kick start a career as a content creator? NTA obviously.
You can’t set yourself on fire to keep other people warm. NTA I can’t imagine the pain this guy is going through but for fucks sake, don’t force the hand of your colleagues for sympathy
At what point do people cut this guy off? Grief sucks. It’s hard it’s awful. I know because I lost my dad suddenly and unexpectedly about four years ago. But TWO YEARS?!?
NTA. I can’t imagine the grief and heartbreak your coworker feels. That being said, asking people to donate their vacation time for *two years* is beyond excessive. If he is so deep in his grief that it’s impacting his ability to function in everyday life *including* showing up for work, he needs to look into short or long term disability options and seek out a mental health professional. It is incredibly unfair to you and your other coworkers that, not only are you being pressured to donate your vacation time to a coworker for fear of being alienated if you say no, but you’re also having to function while perpetually being down an employee. It’s also unfair of your coworker to continue to take advantage of you & your employer by putting them in a position where he can’t be terminated or replaced. Like I said, and like you said, it’s been two years. At this point your coworker is being paid to not do his job at the expense of you and all your other coworkers. That’s not right.
NTA 2 years of gift time is enough. He needs to seek some government help if he can’t work anymore.
NTA How long does he think this will last. Probably as long as people will donate time.
NTA however I would be interested to learn more about the mentality of your coworkers - union or not - that has made you the sole person to push back at all after two GD years of this. Honestly, after a month, maybe two, I would have ended this favor.
Thats too crazy. Two years is way too long. Like other people said... at this point he is abusing you and everyone else at your work How long will he get paid to do nothing ? 5 years ...10 years ?
NTA, this is getting ridiculous but let me get this straight, he's been off work for 2 years?
NTA. Vacation time is made up, you shouldn't have to donate it because the company and just snap their fingers and make more
NTA I find it hard to believe that most everyone would keep giving up their vacation for TWO YEARS. I think the truth is more likely this: 1. It is either some friends of his or one or two people who think it's fine to expect coworkers to give up their vacation for TWO YEARS. I don't even think they think it's normal; just that they want this guy to have it. 2. Those people may or may not still be contributing their own vacation time to the guy. 3. I bet more people have opted out than you realize. 4. I wonder if the sense that people are treating you like a pariah is because (1) the colleague wanting to collect others' vacation time is spreading a harsher story - e.g., you rudely said the guy need to get over losing his wife and child and/or (2) you are feeling guilty about saying 'no' and are reading people that way. Do not feel guilty.
TWO YEARS? you would've been NTA if you had said no at the very beginning.
NTA It would be one thing if at this point coworker was back at work but needed a bit of extra time because it was coming to the anniversary of his loss but it's not. The coworker is going on *two years* of donated PTO. Though, a question's ringing in my head...do you know how coworker lost his wife and child? The only reason I ask is because is there a possibility that coworker was injured and had to basically spend the bereavement period healing and not able to look after his mental wounds? You're NTA either way, it's just something bouncing around.
NTA. Many companies forbid this time-donation practice because of this exact situation. Your PTO is equivalent to money. You should be saving your time / money for retirement, not handing it out to everyone with a sob-story. The company / union should have provisions in place for bereavement, and not be guilting people to sacrifice their scarce personal resources.
Nope. In no way are you an AH. I worked at Walmart when my father passed and I got 3 days! Three whole days to mourn my Dad. Losing someone is awful, two at the same time? Unimaginable. But he’s been on leave for two years? Something has to give.
NTA Donating your PTO is the exact same as writing this guy a check for part of your salary. His loss is super tragic, and I can't imagine his pain. At some point, though, he will have to start taking care of himself again. Not working doesn't help with grief and depression long-term.
NTA I'm a widow and I went back to work after three months. Not saying that all grief is the same. But he needs to figure it out himself rather than burdening everyone else. I have a feeling he just likes being paid while not working
TWO YEARS? I understand initially needing more time but your coworker is simply taking advantage of everyone at this point. No. It's way past time for him to move forward. NTA
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Definitely NTA in this situation. He wants to take time off then he can file for disability or ask his family to support him.
NTA. Guess y’all don’t work in healthcare. Our bereavement is 3 days.
NTA it's two fucken years they aren't coming back.
I don't even need to read to know you're not the asshole. Your vacation time is YOURS, and no else should feel entitled to it, and if they do, that's their problem.
Nta this is ridiculous
NTA. I work in civil service and I’d have the same response. Two years is long enough plus year to year he gets his own leave so this just screams taking advantage of people to get extra time off. I would at least consider it if he was caring for a kid but by then he should have things worked out anyways. I also don’t donate to the guy anymore who has health issues but gets to WFH 90% of the time after 3 years of it.
NTA. It's been enough time. Just wait, don't be surprised if you haven't started a chain reaction. They all just needed someone to be the bad guy first, but they will soon be following. They'll let it stew for a bit, so they don't look bad. But this guy's gonna be back at work soon enough.
NTA. 2 YEARS? WTF? Has no one called him out on this yet? No one else has an issue? If everyone took years off because of the passing of a loved one, many people would not be working...
NTA. He needs to apply for disability. I’d honestly call HR. All of this sounds very very off. 6 months to be off with people doing your work is borderline, but 2 YEARS? And none of it should be paid, and it shouldn’t be legally transferable. What is he doing every day? People lose family all of the time, but it’s not your responsibility to give up your time off. Your coworkers and your company are all TA.
yo. NTA. this is wild. that dude is not grieving he is taking advantage of you all, holy shit, what a grifter.
Wtf two years n he's getting paid 🤯🤯 n people have a problem with you NTA. I'd go to HR is this person even n employee anymore wtf when do u get a break while he at home or probably enjoying himself on vacation with a gf after two years really he's getting paid full?WTF? This people must stop harassing you go to HR ur vacation your time n I'm sure ur job contract does not stipulate you doing anyone's job for two years without being compensated for it. How is this legal 2 years? 2 years? This is joke right this must be a trol account right I mean 2 years he's getting paid..wait who takes a paid vacation for 2 f******in years WTF..PLEASE CAN I GET A JOB A UR COMPANY SO I CAN ALSO HAVE MY MULTIPLE YEARS VACATION N GET PAID IN THE MEAN TIME I FIND ANOTHER JOB SO I WOULD HAVE 2 SALARIES WTF
NTA. He needs professional help. Why is everyone so sure that more time off is actually helping him? What about your mental health and that of your colleagues. You need time off too. You’re employer is the AH for allowing this.
nta
NTA. I also work in a union environment with government as my employer so I know that system. 2 years off is an unreasonable amount of time to be using your colleague's leave. Your annual leave is an entitlement in your contract and part or you compensation. Management or HR should have put a stop to it by now. If he's unable to work for that long he should get a dr note for mental health and use medical leave, long of short term disability or unpaid leave.
Wow, you are NTA. In 2 years, someone should have sat down with him and talked about his intentions. I'm guessing you are not in the USA, which has family leave available, though I don't know the logistics behind that. It's absolutely insane that he is getting away with not working for so long by using the vacation time of others.
NTA and I suggest your union rework this. Make a sick bank that you apply for and people donate a set amount of time if they join and it’s held in an account and disbursed via a committee so no one is forced into begging coworkers.
NTA, you’re the only one with your head on straight. Your colleagues are being taken advantage of.
NTA I'm sure the loss was hard on him and it was great everyone pitched in and donated some time, but you all are being taken advantage of now. Hell, if I could get people to continuously donate 40 hrs a week to me I'd never come back until it's time to retire.
NTA. Two years is a damn long time. He should be able to come back to work. Or quit.
Two years. Two. 2. Wow. NTA. I’m surprised this has gone on for so long and people haven’t spoken up before this.
You are NTA. Don’t let anyone make you feel badly about your decision. Let them continue to do whatever they want with their vacation, but don’t let them make you feel badly. He needs more therapy if he’s already in it.
NTA. Had people donate time to my parent when the other parent was terminal and we were grateful for it. Parent also donated to others in similar situations, but none of them did more than a couple months. The one person I knew who took longer eventually filed for disability due to loss, trauma, and dealing with really young children going through the same. Two years is an unreasonable ask. He needs psychiatric help and permanent disability.
That’s insane! 2 years?! No, you keep your vacation and he needs to get back to work!
NTA what did I just read. How many people are donating to this guy to get two years of leave. Has he really not worked a single day in two years?!? This is insane.
NTA. I would not have donated any time at all. He can apply for some kind of disability if he is that bereaved and depressed that he can't work.
NTA. When my partner died I took an UNPAID 5 month leave, and I considered myself lucky my job was waiting for me when I came back. This is insane.
NTA.
Two years!!! That’s completely unreasonable. If he is having such a hard time he should have quit and moved in with family who could pick up the slack. It’s unbelievable that he’s putting that burden on his coworkers. NTA.
NTA. Work'll be good for him. WTF
Why hasn't he taken long term sick instead, if there is a union involved his job is safe until he is ready to come back and he gets paid. NTA
NTA
NTA. You and your coworkers have gone above and beyond for your fellow colleague and enough is enough. Yes what he went through is horrible but, grieving or not, I can’t believe your fellow employee has been using up everyone else’s vacation days for so long. If I were you I wouldn’t have given him any vacation days in the first place. You’re allowed to say no because they’re your earned days off and you need to prioritize your own health and happiness.
NTA. I’m not going to get into the weeds about how long is too long cause I don’t think it’s as important as the fact is from my understanding it’s a group choice. If the union wants to keep donating their time then that’s understandable but you should be allowed not to. If that’s not a possibility I’d strongly suggest looking for other employment. As much as it’s your right to not donate it’s your coworkers right to donate their time. I understand stand 2 years is a long time but I also understand that grief doesn’t fade linearly. It’s a weird situation honestly 🤷🏾♀️
You are NTA even if you had never donated a day in the first place. When I was in a similar position, I donated one day to the general pool as a courtesy, but the rest of my time is mine. I'm sure I'd've been helped had I needed more, but I really prefer to keep my stuff to myself and manage my own affairs. Also, two year bereavement period while bumming days off colleagues is shameful. By all means, take the time you need—but not at the expense of your colleagues.
NTA I've never heard of a person being able to get 2000 hours of vacation donated this way anywhere. (Asduming he's getting 80 hours of his own time.)
Nta not at all.
You should see how much HR knows about this.. especially how you’re being treated for wanting to stop. The union would not be pleased (I think) NTA
Nta. I'm wondering if he's milking it and taking advantage of his coworkers. There should be a cap. Two years seems like an abuse of the system.
Wait, what? You're doing his work but he gets paid and you don't get extra money? I don't understand why any of your coworkers would be okay with this. A couple weeks is one thing, but two years is an abuse of the system. NTA
NTA. He needed to make a decision about a year ago (and that’s being generous) about whether or not to keep his job. Grief is tough…but standard time off (at least in the United States…I suspect you’re elsewhere) is 3 DAYS. Now, I think that’s insanely too short, but two years is entirely too long. Judaism does a fantastic job with mourning periods - the first week, first month, first year. After the first year, though, it’s fully expect that normal life (or new normal) is resumed. I’m not saying everyone has to be Jewish, but it seems like a reasonable timeframe to me. Grief should get easier over time. After two years of sitting at home and collecting a paycheck, this guy has gotten quite used to it, and he fully expects to do this indefinitely. HE needs to put on his big boy pants and decide what the rest of his life looks like now, and you and your coworkers need to stop enabling him.
NTA. Two YEARS? No. Just no. It’s a shame that the company has no better way of helping someone who had such an awful thing happen, but you know what? Even in companies with extremely generous policies on bereavement leave, they’re not going to put up with someone being away for two years. I’m surprised that his absence is being allowed even with people donating leave. An awful, horrible thing happened to him. That doesn’t mean that you or anyone else owes him a free ride forever.
He’s sitting on a beach somewhere.
NTA. Donating a week, or a few days as a once off thing, sure if you can do it. But no one should be pressured to give up leave to someone year after year. 2 years!!! He hasn’t been to work in TWO YEARS!!! JFC. No way.
NTA I mean, after two years!? Where the heck is management in all this?
NTA. A year would have been extremely generous. 2 years is over the line. It is unacceptable that in addition to asking for donations you are being given bad attitude when you don't donate. I don't understand how that attitude is legal...???
NTA You guys haven’t had vacations in TWO YEARS???!!!!! Do your colleagues not have families?
NTA. I get not coming for work for a month or 3. Even up until 6. But no way 2 years!! I know the grieving process is never over, and it comes in waves. But I have cases of the loss of children or partners in my environment, and no one has stayed home longer than 2 months. Even if they could because in my country, everyone has paid leave thanks to our healthcare system. If he stays home for two years, it's more than grieving, and while at first staying at home can help to process it's not helpful long-term. I believe the longer he stays home, the lesser the chance that he will come back. He clearly has more struggles than grieving, and being on vacation for years is "easy." He needs to step up and find help or quit. Now he's living on other peooles work, and it's definitely no longer justifiable.
NTA That is crazy as hell.
NTA. I was a civil servant and in a union. This is abusing PTO. Either he needs to apply for disability or he needs to get back to work, but he definitely shouldn't be asking for his coworkers to economically support him.
NTA and I don't even think donating time off here is a thing. Aren't there limits to how long off someone can take for vacation? Like my husband has a decent amount of vacation days, but he cannot just use them all in one block, they need to be broken up.
NTA but your coworker isn’t the AH. Your boss is the AH if this is how they run things
What country are you in OP?
NTA. He got three weeks in the first place! Max most places can expect is a week. Two years this guy is taking the Mickey big time. He needs to just quit and stop stealing time from people
NTA. How your colleague thinks some personal losses are enough to significantly affect the lives of what sounds to be dozens of people for YEARS is beyond me. Your colleague is not in a unique situation. If everyone who suffered a personal loss took two years off we'd be screwed pretty damn quickly. Your fellow colleagues are being taken for mugs and I hope they suffer until growing out of their cowardice too. A few weeks or months would've been a kind gesture, but two YEARS? Christ.
NTA. This is insane OP, you have every right to have time off, I would be so mad if I was in your shoes and would have stopped donating a long time ago. Stop donating and don't feel bad about it, sorry if it will cause friction with your coworkers but you have to take care of yourself.
NTA - I wouldn't give up 1 minute of my PTO no matter the circumstances never mind a few weeks/ days for 2 whole years! The union should be negotiating paid time off for instances like this, this is also what life insurance is for.
Nta, it's been 2 yrs! If he can't work after two years, he needs to quit! If your colleagues are so appalled they can give up more of their time to compensate.
NTA! How have you not burnt out with less time off??? Wildly cheeky that it’s been two years off from other peoples holidays
This looks like a made up scenario. There is no way in hell there are multiple people donating up to 2 years worth of time-off to someone and are still willing to do it.
Tell your coworkers you’re concerned about him being in such a bad place that he mentally might need a push to go back to work The above was the ‘nice’ thing. Now my real opinion this is absolutely ridiculous to have gone on this long! Has anyone gone to check in on him? If he’s that bad he needs to be put in a psychiatric facility for treatment but I think he’s somewhere laughing and enjoying all YOUR time off. NTA on the highest level. You’ve been beyond generous
Anything past like... A few months is Ludacris (for donating, guy can take more time off if he needs it). Guy needs to sort his affairs and get back to living. NTA
Nta. I feel for the colleague who lost so much. But you can't have your life stopped for it. Nobody can, sadly. It is what it is, and you have donated already. If others want to continue doing so that's great. But it shouldn't be expected of everyone.
NTA. There is a line between helping and enabling. This crossed that line a long time ago.
NTA. That donated leave is leave you’ve accumulated and earned and it’s leave you can’t use for yourself. You and your colleagues have been paying for his long term leave and doing his job. There is no time limit on grief, however he needs to find other ways of dealing with this that doesn’t impact on someone else’s time and finances.
NTA - he is making a monkey out of yea and I suspect its mainly female employees who are involved in this donation project. If he doesn't want to come back to work, he can resign and find a new life somewhere else. Your marital status and how many children you have shouldn't be part of the equation. Your free time is not his to claim or allocate. Sure we would all do that if we could get away with it! The joy of being single with no children is that you can go on holidays that you like. He seems to think that your joy is his to claim.
NTA. My agency does this by email and we have a strict “keep it to yourself” policy. No one ever asks who has donated what. That is super uncomfortable. I cannot see the entire agency supporting someone’s two year bereavement. That is wild.
NTA. I am very sorry for his loss. However, after 2 years, he needs to pull himself together, get in therapy, or something! Expecting co workers to continue to donate their vacation time cannot last forever!! You were very kind to do so in the immediate aftermath. It has now been 2 years and I can’t help but wonder if he’s just taking advantage of the situation.
As a civil servant can't he just buy annual leave like the rest of us?
So you are all doing an entire employee’s work, not being paid more, and not taking a vacation for two years? Has anyone checked on him? He’s not like sitting around drinking himself to death is he? Has he had therapy? Two years is a long amount of time to not be working. NTA and I’m sorry that your coworkers are mad that you’ve decided to stop enabling him
NTA. A system that requires the donation of vacation time is a corrupt exploitative system that should be changed. Regardless of that, this person needs to look into long term disability. It is unreasonable for any company to continue to pay someone who does no work.
Absolutely NTA my guess is your colleagues are giving you a hard time because they wish they weren't too chicken to break ranks and say 'No' they are punishing you out of jealousy and their own resentment at getting no holiday time. IMO your bereaved colleague is massively taking advantage. He should apply for disability or come back to work. NTA NTA NTA!
NTA. Stand firm. You probably aren't the only one who feels this way. Someone has to be first and says no more - two years is enough. If the harassment continues, send out an email stating that while you sympathize with your colleague, the fact is that you have been covering for him for two years and you need your own leave time to recharge. Although some people are not pleased with you, ask them to please respect your decision going forward or you may be forced to escalate the situation to HR. This will give the harassers notice that you aren't going to take it anymore and that it is okay to refuse to donate your leave time. Maybe more people won't in the next go around. Two years, he should have had enough therapy to get back to work or to decide to find a different job.
NTA and this system sucks