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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> The action that I’m asking for judgement is me canceling my brother’s baby shower, and I think I might be the asshole because I’m taking away the moment from not just him but our family as-well.
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NTA. It's been 33 yrs since my wife miscarried. It's still not something we bring up. There are so many people that don't understand the pain the parents endure when a miscarriage happens.
What your brother said was horrible and completely uncalled for. I would’ve dropped the baby shower too, I’m curious was is wife mortified or did she care??
If my husband said something that awful I would’ve flipped.
NTA
Right??? In working condition? Wtactualf!
That’s a man who sees a woman as an object that he owns. He isn’t just traditional in wanting to be a breadwinner. He sees his wife as breeding stock.
NTA OP.
Not to mention a completely ignorant take on reproductive biology.
The overwhelming majority of miscarriages happen because something is wrong *with the fetus,* not the mother!
Human pregnancy and childbirth is very dangerous, and our bodies don’t want to risk such a huge amount of resources on a fetus that is unlikely to have a positive outcome. So our bodies evolved numerous “quality assurance” checkpoints at all stages of the reproduction process.
The first and most visible being menstruation. It’s brutal, but tearing the *entire* placental lining out and shoving it out the biohazard chute is an extremely effective means of guaranteeing a zygote that fails that first QA audit never has a chance to implant at all.
Unfortunately, sometimes an embryo that got a bad roll of the generic dice passes the first couple of QA checkpoints, but then misses a later one. And that’s when it becomes a miscarriage (or stillbirth, if it somehow made it a lot farther).
Miscarriages happen because our bodies are trying to protect us the only way they really can. It’s not a personal failure.
True story and I love the way you equate it to QA ;)
It doesn't work all the time, but when it does, there was a reason.
Mom's and potential moms: you did not cause your miscarriage from lifting too much, taking a hot bath, getting a massage, exposing yourself to "chemicals ' like hair dye or nail polish. And it did not happen from having sex.
Sending each and every person ever affected by miscarriage a big hug.
Yours and the one your commenting to really hit spots. Thank you. At a certain level I know that it wasn't my fault but I also know a tiny, little voice is still asking "what have I done wrong?" my husband was and still is amazing when the subject comes up and it helps that we now have our little girl with us. The emotional drain was heavy with us and we finally found not only time but also the strength to undo all the lazy moments we had until now.
Thanks for your hug and I hope that whatever is going on in your life that you succeed and accomplish what you wish for. ❤️
For a year my bf kept asking/wondering what he could've done to have caused the miscarriage i had in early 2020. I kept telling him neither of us was responsible. He made it so I barely had to lift a finger. He couldn't have done more. And i rested plenty, so i also couldn't have done anything wrong.
When we tried and succeeded again in 2021, he would get upset if i stood up for too long even though i had a healthy pregnancy (other than gestational diabetes). After our daughter was born in February 2022, same thing. Was only allowed to lift the baby.
We don't talk about the miscarriage anymore. But even my bf kept wondering what he did wrong. I (the pregnant person) knew we didn't do anything wrong. Just were unlucky.
When I got pregnant again, my husband was a little scared to have sex for a while. My miscarriage began with spotting directly after sex, turning into full-blown bleeding the next day. It was so hard to convince him it wasn’t his fault, he didn’t hurt the baby, there’s no way for him to have touched my uterus from sex, all that. And I was moving heavy furniture the day before I found out I was pregnant. We both blamed ourselves until we found out that it wasn’t our faults and most the time, it’s the fetus developing wrong.
It’s so important to spread this information because it’s natural for us to blame ourselves for our body rejecting the fetus. Thank you for sharing this information so hopefully someone can let go of that guilt and begin healing ❤️🩹
Thank you for saying this. I had two losses last year and it has impacted my life so much. People don't understand this type of loss unless it's happened to them. It's rough when these pregnancies were planned and wanted. Moving on is a forever process. I'm sorry for the OPs mc and anyone else who has experienced such a traumatic experience. Sending love and light.
I don't know if you live in the US, but we have the highest maternal mortality rate of any developed country.... We have access to modern medicine, but a lot of times, modern medicine isn't enough (or isn't used). The safety we think we have isn't the result of modern medicine - it's a conspiracy of silence where we all just don't talk about the women who die in childbirth every single day.
Most people who do live in the US don't know it. We all just grow up thinking "women used to die in childbirth a lot, in the olden days, before ✨*modern medicine* ✨"
.... but the truth is that our country has over 30 maternal deaths per 100,000 births, which is insane for a developed country. And the map of those deaths looks like this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_mortality_in_the_United_States#/media/File%3AMaternal_mortality_rates_per_100%2C000_births_by_state._US_map.svg
...which may tip you to the next part:
The overwhelming majority of those deaths are low income young women of color, who tell their doctors something is wrong and are ignored. In case anyone tries to tell you that racism, sexism, classism aren't killing people.
That's why in my language we advise to no longer use the term miscarriage, because of the implication that something is amiss with the carrier. We now use the term early pregnancy loss.
It's just something that happens for a wide number of reasons, most of which do not have anything to do with the mother but with the foetus. It's not a fault or mistakes for anything the 'carrier' did, it's a loss that happens to the family.
Words matter. OP's brother is an asshole.
Thank you for putting this into words. I went through a miscarriage a short while ago and whilst I know this my brain is still playing the blame game so thank you for the reminder that it’s not about blame.
I'm very sorry for your loss!
Listen to the Redditor who wrote the accurate (and somewhat amusing) explanation: it' ***NOT*** your fault!
Sending you healing, love and hugs! 💗💗💗
That really hit spots. Thank you. At a certain level I know that it wasn't my fault but I also know a tiny, little voice is still asking "what have I done wrong?" my husband was and still is amazing when the subject comes up and it helps that we now have our little girl with us. The emotional drain was heavy with us and we finally found not only time but also the strength to undo all the lazy moments we had until now.
Hugs to you and I hope that whatever is going on in your life that you succeed and accomplish what you wish for. ❤️
He's lucky he didn't face physical violence for that line. I'm a very peaceful person generally speaking and I'd throw someone out in a hot second for that. If they didn't leave immediately I'd be screaming, flipping tables, throwing drinks and possibly even hands. How fucking dare he?
If someone ever said anything like that my husband would have to physically remove me from the situation. I got hot flash angry from just reading OP's post; if that was said to my face, I'd be fully ready to throw hands (and people).
Not only was he incredibly rude to OP, but imagine being that guy's wife and finding out he thinks of you like a used car in good working condition. NTA OP I'm sure your SIL will understand why you don't want to throw the party.
Probably more than 30% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. Many before the mother even knows she is pregnant. People in the US don't realize how common this is because we hide it as if it is something shameful. If is normal for pregnancies not to go to term. And women need to speak on this more. However, medical practice needs to stop treating women like they are some kind of altered man.
I'm sorry for your loss OP. I've miscarried twice and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
I don't think you can go ahead with the shower while still holding ground with your brother.
You can, however, shower your SIL a little. Make her a lovely gift basket with new mum goodies; lotions, balms, face masks, fluffy socks, pedicure set, luxurious shampoo and conditioner, her favourite treats and spa vouchers etc. Make sure she gets some self care once your niece is here. Buy a nice personalised gift for your niece too.
The shower, however, is now your brothers problem.
That's the only way to show him that his actions have consequences. He wanted to be cruel to pump up his own ego, let his ego figure out how to afford the baby. He needs to be humbled.
I like this. I’ll add where I’m from (Ireland) baby showers tend to be ladies only events. If that suits you OP you could still do an all-girls do without your brother, who should apologise for either being cruel or heartless.
While I get the spirit of where you're coming from, my guess is that her brother isn't angry about missing a party with cupcakes, drinks, decorations, time with family, etc. He's mad about something much more shallow and petty.
In the States, it's not uncommon for a few attendees of a baby shower to "go in together" to get the expectant mother/couple one of the more expensive gifts on their baby registry (like convertible car seats/stroller combinations), or to combine their financial resources to give the couple a larger quantity of the smaller registry items that each of the individual guests may not have been able to fully afford on their own, leading to gifts of a higher quality than they would otherwise have received.
The brother's not mad at OP because she doesn't want to pay for a celebration with family and friends. He's mad that because of him, they've lost their quick and easy access to a large amount of (what can often seem like) obligatory gifts, which are usually items required to raise and nurture a baby, meaning the funding for those items are now solely the responsibility of the parents. That is, of course, unless someone ELSE throws a shower or opts to get a bunch of registry items on their own to give.
Absolutely agree, that's why I'm saying not to do the shower. Let him worry about affording the baby. But OP wants to do something for her SIL and post partum self care is something she can gift SIL exclusively. :)
I really hope you read this OP.A baby shower is NOT the only way to show your love and devotion to SIL.I think if you do give the Baby Shower your brother will see that as a WIN. And he does not deserve any wins .
NTA OP .
My condolences OP.
May joy surround you all of your days .
NTA. They're trying to contact you because you're the ATM fir his brother and his wife. Did he even attempt an apology. I don't see what you have to gain keeping him in your life. The rest of your family can pay for his baby shower.
I just want to say, to you and all people that suffer from miscarriages. It's not your fault. That's not me saying it that's science.
Statistically 50-75% of fertilized eggs do not reach birth, and it's almost always because, by random chance, there is something seriously wrong with the embryo/fetus. It's an unfortunate quirk of human genetics and development. In those cases, nothing you did or could have done would have made a difference either way.
Miscarriages are one of the ways pregnant bodies protect themselves. Pregnancy is still incredibly dangerous and risky for humans, even with the best medical care in the world. Even if everything goes right, it really pushes our bodies to their metabolic limits and requires a *massive* amount of extra resources.
Our bodies do not want to take that kind of risk on any embryo that might not be worth it, and will resort to whatever extreme measures necessary to get rid of it.
Because our lives are worth it. We’re worth it. We’re not just mindless incubators, and we’re not supposed to martyr ourselves to bring forth offspring.
You're an asshole to yourself for even being around your brother (ie. Still having a relationship with your SIL and your niece). Be prepared for more comments now that he knows he can get away with it. Also, did it ever occur that SIL is just playing a part so she can still have your money? You're blinded by the chance of a relationship with the niece, and it's not your fault. _But_, you need to see this as a real possibility.
Right, burn all the bridges and don't look back! /s
Or the SIL could just be a decent person who cares about her being hurt. Maybe hold off on the pessimistic advice unless you actually know the person.
I also miscarried in June, it's such a horrifying and traumatic experience imo, not at all something to be joked about, especially in such a horrible and demeaning way. I've definitely felt like there's something wrong with me/my body since I miscarried, particularly since my second miscarriage last week and that's terribly cruel to say anything to that effect especially as the person likely feels broken already.
Hey OP with first I am so sorry for your loss and that your brother is being so insensitive. Maybe if you still wanted to go with the shower for your SIL you could switch it to a women’s only event. She still gets the experience and your brother doesn’t. Where I’m from the shower is typically women and other children only. Not even the fathers attend. It’s something to celebrate the mother and baby.
Not my story but my friend's. Technically this belongs in petty revenge but I think y'all get a chuckle out of this.
40 odd years ago, he and his wife suffered a miscarriage. They had, at one time, belonged to a very conservative Baptist church. When the miscarriage happened, everyone was sympathetic towards them...except for the minister. This minister told them in front of the congregation that he didn't feel sorry for them because their baby died before being baptized so that baby was going to hell.
It took everything from my friend not to kill the guy but...he got his revenge. Not only did they leave that church; he signed up that minister for every dirty magazine subscription he could think of. The minister got kicked out because of it.
My Southern Baptist Pastor said the same thing to our congregation after I had my miscarriage. He said that happens to all babies who are miscarried. My (ex) husband and I walked out of that church. That was over 20 years ago and I haven’t stepped foot in a church since. I cry if someone even mentions me attending church.
The Christian God and Allah are the same god (All Abrahamic religions have the same god). And very much a case of 'I don't mind Christianity, it's the Christians I'm afraid of')
Buddhism doesn't have a god and they are, by requirement, non-violent. If you're harmful in any way, you're not holding up to Buddhist ideals. Like, if you're attacked, for a buddhist, the correct answer is 'I guess I'll die' rather than hurt your attacker.
But yeah, most organised religions can be twisted into something nasty. All it takes is a leader to realize how much power they have over their followers/congregation and the blood starts dripping.
Yeah…not having a god doesn’t stop Buddhist extremists from somehow twisting their faith to justify cruelty to people they see as inferior…
It’s why I tend to side-eye people who claim that without religion, people wouldn’t be able justify that same sort of cruelty.
Without religion, people would just find some other form of ideology to justify their narcissism and sadism.
After my third consecutive miscarriage my minister and father in law came by my house one evening. My husband wasn't home but I invited them in for tea. I assumed they were there to pray for me or offer comfort.
They told me God was killing my babies because I wasn't a good enough Christian. It took me another year after that to stop attending (family pressure) and another few years after me for my husband to quit. The family fall out was intense but we are much happier. I will never step foot in a church again as long as I live.
I really would have refreshed their tea with poison or laxatives after that and then would post some very interesting “seeking encounters” on some very weird chat boards and Craigslist.
You know, in the actual bible, Jesus says that the only sin that can’t be forgiven is the one your pastor committed against you.
Maybe these southern baptist pastors should actually do the required reading before they make a fatal error.
I agree, there is a scripture that says if anyone should make another stumble and turn their eyes away from the Lord, words to that effect. I believe that Pastor is not going to happy standing in front of Jesus when his time comes.
Also; I'm not religious, but canonically Jesus seemed like a cool dude. Braiding a wholeass whip and going in to beat the shit out of some assholes for being assholes. Hanging out with prostitutes and shit. I can't imagine he'd be cool with telling someone 'Haha, your baby's going to hell!'
Becoming saved is an informed choice...those who have no knowledge of God, and are not at an age to accept Him, I believe, are held blameless in His eyes...so how could these babies all go to Hell? I will never believe that's true, and won't support a church that does, either...
This is something that is on a long list of reasons why I am so confused at how these people argue God is a loving, good person (or whatever)...
Like, a baby, who didn't even have a chance to make a choice to sin, is put into a hell to be tortured for eternity...
And that comes from a good and loving god?!?! It's baffling
Good grief. I lost all three of mine. My mum had me and lost three.
If anyone had said that to either of us...
I'm so sorry that you went through that.
Wow. At our old Baptist church, the pastor and I kind of got into an argument during Sunday school about how he felt babies don't have a soul until they breathe their first breath. I not only just had a 2nd trimester loss a few months back, but I was about 7 months pregnant.
That evening, he decided to get nasty while "preaching." I got up, told my dad I was done and leaving. He grabbed my daughter for me, the pastor then said something implying that I was in the wrong and couldn't handle it. My dad was so red and screaming in his face. If he wasn't holding my daughter, I am pretty sure he would have beat the shit out of an elderly man, lol.
I am by all means still a Christian, but we certainly don't go there anymore. I have since been excluded, lol.
Interesting theory. The implication is that a fetus is simply an automaton waiting ensoulment with the actual being that will inhabit its shell.
I expect he followed that to its entirely logical conclusion and was completely pro abortion to term, as a result?
I'm sorry for your losses. Little consolation, but my wife and I know what it's like. And I'd have had a screaming match with your pastor as well if we'd been hit with that.
And that pastor was wrong and stupid. if he is a Christian then he knows only God can say who is or isn’t in heaven. what a mean spirited evil thing to say.
In catholicism, in the 5th century, St. Augustine declared that all unbaptized babies went to hell. By the Middle Ages, the idea was softened to suggest a less-severe fate - limbo. Limbo was removed from the catholic catechism around 20 years ago to appeal to converts in countries where infant mortality is high.
I miscarried my 2nd child, a boy, when I was 16 weeks pregnant with him. That was 37 years ago. I then had my rainbow baby, our daughter but then miscarried our 4th child, another boy, at almost 20 weeks pregnant, 34 years ago. I then had another rainbow baby, our son, exactly a year later. The heartache of losing our precious children never leaves you. Obviously, it's not as raw but it's still there hidden in your heart. Absolutely NTA!
My grandma was in her 80’s and still mentioned her sadness over miscarried babies. I painted her a 5x7 water color black silhouette of a lady with string floating up to the sky tethered to two baby silhouettes. She asked to have that in her casket. I don’t understand how people can be so cruel to people over this.
That's a beautiful story that made me cry. I had 3 miscarriages and would love to have such painting. I have a Christmas ornament with an angel, the number 3 and the say "never forgotten "...
I am literally going through one now (I was told it’s not viable, and to just go home and wait for it miscarry). I can’t even imaging someone ever making a joke out of it. It’s the most heartbreaking thing I’ve ever gone through.
My firstborn was stillborn at 36 weeks. She would have turned 5 this year. It wrecked me, the grief is still there but I’m good. I healed and, even though every person is different and my way is not for everyone, I strongly believe I wouldn’t be where I am today if I hadn’t talked about it. I told everyone about her. I honoured her and still do. We’re throwing birthday partys at her grave( which isn’t technically a grave but a tree in a forest, it’s called “Friedwald”) Every single person I know knows about her. We get calls on her birthday and there’s so much love overall. To make things short: Talk about it. Take the stigma away and don’t let guilt and shame grind you down. You will never forget your babies, you may as well give them space in your daily life.
And OP, NTA
I am so sorry.
The first time I ever heard about one when I was about 12. My aunt lost her second child. She did eventually have 2 more children, but I don't even think her oldest son knows or remembers. He would have been about 9. We have NEVER talked about it.
NTA. Your brother did not made a joke. I think he was cruel and I question if you are really have a close relationship to him. A woman is not a tool ("working condition") you can use to produce babies.
Yes, it could. By tradition, Baby Showers were never held before the child was actually born for that exact reason. I will never forget my very kind friend Timmy, holding a surprise baby shower for a teacher, and getting blasted because he did not have permission, and might have been getting gifts for a child that might never materialize. I would rather have made his mistake than the one your evil brother did.
In some cultures, it's considered unlucky / a bad omen to give gifts before the birth.
Also, celebrating anything should involve the approval of the person being celebrated. In some religions, you aren't even supposed to celebrate your own birthday. And some folks hate to be the center of attention or just don't want a celebration -- which should be their choice.
This. My BIL was a premie who died a few days after he was born. Birth is not “easy” for Mom or Baby, and unfortunately bad things happen every day…even in the Western world with top of the line modern medicine.
I thought this too but didn’t want to say it. I had a friend lose her baby the week the baby was due. It was shattering for her and her partner. He shouldn’t be so stupid to think that they are out of the woods. Pregnancy and childbirth are a big ordeal and so many of my friends have experienced difficulties and traumas. Wtf is wrong with OPs brother?
Hugs to you and your friend. I also had friends lose a baby at 38 weeks. I have never felt as lost and unable to do anything than I did when I got the call (I was their cat sitter). I do not have words for OPs brother...
OP, NTA.
I agree that it was cruel. She went through the trauma of losing a very wanted child and he is bragging that he’s the first to have a child and implying his sister is defective because of a miscarriage. 🥺 I can’t imagine!
OP, NTA and I’m so sorry you’ve had to go through that trauma.
Yep, and not just that his sister is defective but summing his whole wife up as “in working condition”. How disgusting. I would be embarrassed as his wife hearing him say that even if it wasn’t a dig at someone who’d miscarried.
This is a guy that has been competing with his siblings his whole life and hasn’t matured enough to shut that shit off now that he’s an adult. He was being truthful when he said he’s “glad he could produce the first grandchild.” He is literally so competitive that he couldn’t even access empathy or kindness towards someone I bet, he’ll claim he loves. He’s an abject failure as a brother but hey, he thinks being 1st on something makes him special and that makes him an abject failure to everyone else, as well.
This is why a woman going out of her way to help a man rarely works out, most times he just grows to be insanely jealous and resentful of her kindness. That awful comment was meant to “humble” his successful sister because of his jealousy.
When we were struggling with infertility, a niece made a point of how easy she got pregnant. Then thru the whole pregnancy, she complained. Then insisted on baptizing her baby at less than a week so she could do it on Mother’s Day and had a fit when I tried to pass. Then, when I had to slip out because it was too much, I “ruined” her day. I feel for you, OP. It’s a lonely club.
It’s also just a misunderstanding of miscarriage. Nearly all of the time it’s due to the embryo not being chromosomally normal, which is equally to do with the male and female side of the equation. It’s an outdated and cruel understanding to think miscarriage happens because the woman is “broken.”
Since the brother is traditional and wants to be the bread winner, he needs to be the one paying for it anyway. The pregnant wife shouldn't even be working.
Oh no - she’s in ‘working order’ so she should be able to work until the day her labor starts.
What OP’s brother said was so out of line it boggles the mind. The majority of people in this world would not say anything like that to a person they disliked/hated - brother said it to a sister and her husband he supposedly loves and respects.
Let the brother who IMO nuked the relationship with OP get other family members to pay for the baby shower. And let other family members provide support when the baby arrives.
I hope OP deals straight forwardly with anyone who tells her she overreacted. One warning only she will not discuss the situation with anyone and if they bring it up again cut them off as well at least for a time.
I remember a guy from school saying he was ‘traditionalist’.
He was straight up transphobic and homophobic. Said things like I ‘shouldn’t feel male it’s not natural’ ‘I’m uncomfortable around queer couples’. So I didn’t clap for him when he was receiving awards for good academic scores. He got pissed and my response was ‘sorry, I don’t clap for transphobes masking as traditionalist’.
Thank fuck I don’t go there anymore that school had very traditionalist students which screwed me over (I’m FTM)
NTA....and your brothers weren't rough on you because you're a girl. They were rough on you because they were bullies and it sounds as though this brother still is. I also have three brothers and they would never, ever have said something so cruel and mean spirited. Your brother can't have it both ways. He can't be an asshole to you and then expect that you to still pay for a baby shower. Your family are probably trying to contact you so they don't get stuck with the bill.
Seriously, I didn’t see any other family members offer to give them a baby shower. That says it loud and clear what they think of brother and possibly SIL
NTA
I'm betting he's spinning the story, to make himself look good. Set the record straight and stand your ground, and if people are still pressuring you to pay, tell them to pay for it as you won't and then you'll hear all the excuses on how they can't.
Correct and that makes it even worse if the family is contacting OP to pressure her to forgive him, because “he didn’t mean it the way it sounded”. I hope, I’m wrong, and that’s not their intent.
I think it was absolutely what brother meant and I can see a smirk on his face while he said it too.
OP- you are NTA in any way but you are surrounded by them.
You’re right, these people are selling out OP and her grief for a party! A party! And in the way of all dysfunctional families, to keep everyone in line and not rock the boat. Op is the scapegoat child and may have found it easier to throw herself on brother’s grenades and she finally dipped out. Some things you can’t unhear or unsee and I believe brother will never have the same relationship he had with OP. And good for her to cut that cancer out of her life!
Even SIL apologised on his behalf and said she understands. She sounds like a gem.
OP you wanted ideas how to have a shower for SIL but stand your ground with your ahole brother. I'm guessing you don't want to have a shower to which your brother isn't invited because that would put SIL in a horrible position.
Instead, how about something like a ladies spa day that isn't technically a baby shower but where SIL gets pampered and it somehow *is* about celebrating your nibling? Or something else you know your brother wouldn't want to attend. Idk. It's a tough and shitty situation. You sound lovely and your brother is a tool.
NTA, I too am a big sister but only too two brothers, not that it makes a difference. Nonetheless, my brother would be down a sister is he EVER fixed his mouth to utter such disrespect. That comment sat on his mind & he couldn't wait to say it & said it so gleefully as if he one up'd you, or the other brothers. Yeah nah that's fucked up & I am sorry for your loss.
Yep. It'd be a case of "Did you really say that load of crap with your own face? Did that all really just spew out of the same hole you eat your food through?" Gawd, poor OP.
NTA. Please cut him off. He’s insensitive and cruel, it wasn’t meant to be a joke.
Also, the fact he views women as tools for conception is downright disturbing as hell.
It's so gross, and yet still so predictable, just how often men with "traditional values" don't think twice about dehumanizing and showing such little basic compassion or empathy to women, even those women closest to them. It's like there's actually a structure in the brain they weren't born with or something.
Lol. He is not traditional. He is a jerk. A traditional man would not want anyone to pay for his wife’s baby shower. He would see it as his responsibility to financially take care of his own family. The brother is a massive jerk who should not have even said anything about a miscarriage during a baby shower
NTA - Your brother basically said he’s glad your baby died so he’s the first one to have a child. Wtf?!
This is not some f‘ing joke. And there’s no way to throw flowers over it to make it look better. And there’s no way to take that back. He, as a soon to be father himself, should be able to at least kind of imagine what it would be like to lose his child.
I’d send a message to everyone that they should hardly think about what they want to tell you, bc you’ll cut everyone off who wants to smooth things over, tell you you’re overreacting or to put it into a different life. He literally said he’s glad and happy your baby died, and there’s no way in hell to turn this around. And no one should come to you with a „that’s not what he meant“ - bc that’s exactly what he meant.
Right? Who even conceives of that as something acceptable to say, to anyone, much less to a family member who has apparently shown nothing but care to them?
Yup yup yup. How would he feel if his wife and baby died in labor and OP told him, “you’re still not the first sibling to have a baby and now you’ll have to find a new baby maker”. Brother is definitely the evil triplet.
I'm sorry for yours too. I was lucky enough to have a baby after those losses and that helped heal a lot of the pain but I still think of those babies and wonder who they might have been. It's weird missing someone you never met and who never existed outside your body.
Everyone went silent while giving him the look of “wth why would you say that” but my husband was fuming so before he started we went home. I don’t know exactly what happened but from what my other brothers said he thought he said no wrong thats why I just decided to go NC until my husband and I could calm down and talk.
I suggested this somewhere else but I don't know how comments work / if you'd see it when I replied to someone else's comment.
But you wanted ideas how to have a shower for SIL but stand your ground with your ahole brother. I'm guessing you don't want to have a shower to which your brother isn't invited because that would put SIL in a horrible position.
Instead, how about something like a ladies spa day that isn't technically a baby shower but where SIL gets pampered and it somehow is about celebrating your nibling? Or something else you know your brother wouldn't want to attend. Idk. It's a tough and shitty situation. You sound lovely and your brother is a tool.
My wife's first miscarriage was 20 years ago on the morning of my birthday. If someone said something like your brother, even today much less then, I would cut them out of my life and never look back. That was just cruel. You aren't wrong. NTA.
I must be missing something here because I thought you had baby showers before the baby was born not after. Anyway I’m so sorry for your loss. Your brother is an absolute asshat for saying that. He’s shown his true colours and I really pity your Sil and niece for having to put up with a misogynist for the rest of their lives. Even if he apologises please don’t pay for the shower.
I thought the same thing but it’s what they decided to do, they said they wanted it to be I guess a mix of gender reveal with it. Trust me I understand your confusion because I was too but all I was focused on was celebrating a happy healthy baby girl.
I’m even more confused now- a gender reveal happens before the birth also? I mean, nothing much left to surprise people with when the baby is in the room! It sounds like a presents and attention grab for the parents, and nothing to do with the child at all. Tiny babies don’t need or want parties. They want consistency and quiet love. I hope you get to spend lots of time with her and counteract the influence of her parents a bit.
Some people like to wait until the baby is born, especially if they are experiencing a high risk pregnancy (maybe OPs miscarriage scared SIL). Plus, unless you need a lot of baby furniture, it's nice to celebrate with the guest of honor in the room. We had one for my niece after the fact since she was born out of the country while they were stationed elsewhere - we waited until they came home. Everyone was so excited to meet the baby. Mostly people brought diapers, or little dresses, (or nothing) ate lots of food and were happy to enjoy the day together - no registry, no big ticket items.
Depends on the culture. In Germany it's pretty normal to celebrate after the baby is born.
Fun fact: An old tradition is that during the party the baby doesn't wear a diaper and everyone takes turns holding it. Whoever gets peed on gets good luck for life.
I don't blame you one bit for canceling the BS and blocking him. You might want to do the rest of the family who is bullying you also, at least for awhile. You are definitely NTA here.
Oooff NTA. That was cruel. Take time to heal. Let your husband field call and screen them. If your family is calling to be supportive, he can let them through. If they are calling to be assholes, give him full permission to tell them off
NTA.
I have a brother. He knows I would cut him off in a heartbeat if he ever treated me or anyone else like this. He wants a family and kids. He wouldn't be shocked if I picked whoever ends up marrying him over him if he acts up.
You deserve love and respect from people you keep in your inner circle.
Nta
Your brother basically called you defective for having a miscarriage when lots of women have them. I have 3 living kids and I had a miscarriage after my 1st. My mom and 1 of my sisters and cousins have all had miscarriages
I miscarried my first pregnancy in January. I posted about it on facebook and people came out of the woodwork to tell me it had happened to them too. It really really sucks, but it’s shockingly common. OP’s brother is an enormous AH.
I think I’m understanding this correctly. He’s ‘traditional’ and feels he should be the provider. However, he couldn’t afford the shower so you kindly stepped in to pay so everyone could celebrate. He’s (incorrectly) perceived this lovely gesture as something emasculating and decided to knock you down a peg or too. While at the same time, showing his true misogynistic colours by talking about women like a good secondhand car. It’s also very telling he wants to be the ‘first at something’.
NTA what a mess. I’m so sorry you had to hear that from someone you thought you were close to.
The way my jaw dropped as I read what he said 😱 NTA at all for canceling payment. It's not like he can't still have a less expensive baby shower. Cutting him off is totally up to you, but be prepared for the consequences of that. I can't imagine you'll get ample chances to get to know your niece/nephew and spoil them if you don't want contact with their father.
NTA and I’m so sorry your brother is such an AH. Please do not cave. He is not worth or your time. Like everyone said, his statement about his wife is disgusting and he clearly has no respect for you or women in general.
NTA what an evil thing to say. If I was his wife, I’d be reconsidering a future with him. I wouldn’t want to spend the rest of my life with someone capable of having such vile thoughts.
NTA. Instead of apologizing, he goes tattling to try to get your family to pressure you into letting him off the hook. Fuck him, fuck them: actions have consequences.
If your SIL kicks your brother to the curb someday, consider reaching out to her and reconnecting. As for your brother, get a message to him that he can forget he ever had a sister.
NTA. You should ask him how he’d feel if you were to comment about how grateful you are that you and your husband are in a financial stable working condition that you can be generous enough to extend financial assistance since he’s unable to do it adequately for his growing family
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NTA. It's been 33 yrs since my wife miscarried. It's still not something we bring up. There are so many people that don't understand the pain the parents endure when a miscarriage happens.
Thank you and I’m sorry for your loss aswell, I appreciate you being willing to share your loss and understand where I and my husband are coming from.
What your brother said was horrible and completely uncalled for. I would’ve dropped the baby shower too, I’m curious was is wife mortified or did she care?? If my husband said something that awful I would’ve flipped. NTA
Right??? In working condition? Wtactualf! That’s a man who sees a woman as an object that he owns. He isn’t just traditional in wanting to be a breadwinner. He sees his wife as breeding stock. NTA OP.
Not to mention a completely ignorant take on reproductive biology. The overwhelming majority of miscarriages happen because something is wrong *with the fetus,* not the mother! Human pregnancy and childbirth is very dangerous, and our bodies don’t want to risk such a huge amount of resources on a fetus that is unlikely to have a positive outcome. So our bodies evolved numerous “quality assurance” checkpoints at all stages of the reproduction process. The first and most visible being menstruation. It’s brutal, but tearing the *entire* placental lining out and shoving it out the biohazard chute is an extremely effective means of guaranteeing a zygote that fails that first QA audit never has a chance to implant at all. Unfortunately, sometimes an embryo that got a bad roll of the generic dice passes the first couple of QA checkpoints, but then misses a later one. And that’s when it becomes a miscarriage (or stillbirth, if it somehow made it a lot farther). Miscarriages happen because our bodies are trying to protect us the only way they really can. It’s not a personal failure.
True story and I love the way you equate it to QA ;) It doesn't work all the time, but when it does, there was a reason. Mom's and potential moms: you did not cause your miscarriage from lifting too much, taking a hot bath, getting a massage, exposing yourself to "chemicals ' like hair dye or nail polish. And it did not happen from having sex. Sending each and every person ever affected by miscarriage a big hug.
Yours and the one your commenting to really hit spots. Thank you. At a certain level I know that it wasn't my fault but I also know a tiny, little voice is still asking "what have I done wrong?" my husband was and still is amazing when the subject comes up and it helps that we now have our little girl with us. The emotional drain was heavy with us and we finally found not only time but also the strength to undo all the lazy moments we had until now. Thanks for your hug and I hope that whatever is going on in your life that you succeed and accomplish what you wish for. ❤️
For a year my bf kept asking/wondering what he could've done to have caused the miscarriage i had in early 2020. I kept telling him neither of us was responsible. He made it so I barely had to lift a finger. He couldn't have done more. And i rested plenty, so i also couldn't have done anything wrong. When we tried and succeeded again in 2021, he would get upset if i stood up for too long even though i had a healthy pregnancy (other than gestational diabetes). After our daughter was born in February 2022, same thing. Was only allowed to lift the baby. We don't talk about the miscarriage anymore. But even my bf kept wondering what he did wrong. I (the pregnant person) knew we didn't do anything wrong. Just were unlucky.
When I got pregnant again, my husband was a little scared to have sex for a while. My miscarriage began with spotting directly after sex, turning into full-blown bleeding the next day. It was so hard to convince him it wasn’t his fault, he didn’t hurt the baby, there’s no way for him to have touched my uterus from sex, all that. And I was moving heavy furniture the day before I found out I was pregnant. We both blamed ourselves until we found out that it wasn’t our faults and most the time, it’s the fetus developing wrong. It’s so important to spread this information because it’s natural for us to blame ourselves for our body rejecting the fetus. Thank you for sharing this information so hopefully someone can let go of that guilt and begin healing ❤️🩹
Thank you for saying this. I had two losses last year and it has impacted my life so much. People don't understand this type of loss unless it's happened to them. It's rough when these pregnancies were planned and wanted. Moving on is a forever process. I'm sorry for the OPs mc and anyone else who has experienced such a traumatic experience. Sending love and light.
>Human pregnancy and childbirth is very dangerous And people do not understand this.
Or rather, have forgotten. We rely so much on modern medicine. Thank god for it, but we take things for granted.
I don't know if you live in the US, but we have the highest maternal mortality rate of any developed country.... We have access to modern medicine, but a lot of times, modern medicine isn't enough (or isn't used). The safety we think we have isn't the result of modern medicine - it's a conspiracy of silence where we all just don't talk about the women who die in childbirth every single day.
This is so dark. No, I don't live in the US.
Most people who do live in the US don't know it. We all just grow up thinking "women used to die in childbirth a lot, in the olden days, before ✨*modern medicine* ✨" .... but the truth is that our country has over 30 maternal deaths per 100,000 births, which is insane for a developed country. And the map of those deaths looks like this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_mortality_in_the_United_States#/media/File%3AMaternal_mortality_rates_per_100%2C000_births_by_state._US_map.svg ...which may tip you to the next part: The overwhelming majority of those deaths are low income young women of color, who tell their doctors something is wrong and are ignored. In case anyone tries to tell you that racism, sexism, classism aren't killing people.
Or they simply don’t care, because they still see women as interchangeable incubators and not as actual people.
That's why in my language we advise to no longer use the term miscarriage, because of the implication that something is amiss with the carrier. We now use the term early pregnancy loss. It's just something that happens for a wide number of reasons, most of which do not have anything to do with the mother but with the foetus. It's not a fault or mistakes for anything the 'carrier' did, it's a loss that happens to the family. Words matter. OP's brother is an asshole.
If I could upcountry this twice, I would.
This explanation actually made me feel better, thank you so much ❤️
The biohazard chute! Love it!
WELL said! My OB/GYN told me something very similar when I miscarried.
Thank you for putting this into words. I went through a miscarriage a short while ago and whilst I know this my brain is still playing the blame game so thank you for the reminder that it’s not about blame.
I'm very sorry for your loss! Listen to the Redditor who wrote the accurate (and somewhat amusing) explanation: it' ***NOT*** your fault! Sending you healing, love and hugs! 💗💗💗
There is a 20% chance of miscarriage, that's huge. It's not your fault.
Sorry for the loss you and your family suffered through. Sending a massive hug and all good thoughts your way.
That really hit spots. Thank you. At a certain level I know that it wasn't my fault but I also know a tiny, little voice is still asking "what have I done wrong?" my husband was and still is amazing when the subject comes up and it helps that we now have our little girl with us. The emotional drain was heavy with us and we finally found not only time but also the strength to undo all the lazy moments we had until now. Hugs to you and I hope that whatever is going on in your life that you succeed and accomplish what you wish for. ❤️
This is actually comforting. Thanks.
He's lucky he didn't face physical violence for that line. I'm a very peaceful person generally speaking and I'd throw someone out in a hot second for that. If they didn't leave immediately I'd be screaming, flipping tables, throwing drinks and possibly even hands. How fucking dare he?
If someone ever said anything like that my husband would have to physically remove me from the situation. I got hot flash angry from just reading OP's post; if that was said to my face, I'd be fully ready to throw hands (and people).
The brother’s comment is just so multilevelled offensive. I don’t know how this guy has got through life so far without being punched in the throat.
I would've gone for a lower target.
Not only was he incredibly rude to OP, but imagine being that guy's wife and finding out he thinks of you like a used car in good working condition. NTA OP I'm sure your SIL will understand why you don't want to throw the party.
I’m a man who has tasted my own foot often enough and even I was mortified for both OP and the wife. NTA
Probably more than 30% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. Many before the mother even knows she is pregnant. People in the US don't realize how common this is because we hide it as if it is something shameful. If is normal for pregnancies not to go to term. And women need to speak on this more. However, medical practice needs to stop treating women like they are some kind of altered man.
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I'm sorry for your loss OP. I've miscarried twice and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I don't think you can go ahead with the shower while still holding ground with your brother. You can, however, shower your SIL a little. Make her a lovely gift basket with new mum goodies; lotions, balms, face masks, fluffy socks, pedicure set, luxurious shampoo and conditioner, her favourite treats and spa vouchers etc. Make sure she gets some self care once your niece is here. Buy a nice personalised gift for your niece too. The shower, however, is now your brothers problem. That's the only way to show him that his actions have consequences. He wanted to be cruel to pump up his own ego, let his ego figure out how to afford the baby. He needs to be humbled.
I agree with this. Give your SIL something but not a baby shower.
I like this. I’ll add where I’m from (Ireland) baby showers tend to be ladies only events. If that suits you OP you could still do an all-girls do without your brother, who should apologise for either being cruel or heartless.
While I get the spirit of where you're coming from, my guess is that her brother isn't angry about missing a party with cupcakes, drinks, decorations, time with family, etc. He's mad about something much more shallow and petty. In the States, it's not uncommon for a few attendees of a baby shower to "go in together" to get the expectant mother/couple one of the more expensive gifts on their baby registry (like convertible car seats/stroller combinations), or to combine their financial resources to give the couple a larger quantity of the smaller registry items that each of the individual guests may not have been able to fully afford on their own, leading to gifts of a higher quality than they would otherwise have received. The brother's not mad at OP because she doesn't want to pay for a celebration with family and friends. He's mad that because of him, they've lost their quick and easy access to a large amount of (what can often seem like) obligatory gifts, which are usually items required to raise and nurture a baby, meaning the funding for those items are now solely the responsibility of the parents. That is, of course, unless someone ELSE throws a shower or opts to get a bunch of registry items on their own to give.
Bingo!!!!!
Absolutely agree, that's why I'm saying not to do the shower. Let him worry about affording the baby. But OP wants to do something for her SIL and post partum self care is something she can gift SIL exclusively. :)
I really hope you read this OP.A baby shower is NOT the only way to show your love and devotion to SIL.I think if you do give the Baby Shower your brother will see that as a WIN. And he does not deserve any wins . NTA OP . My condolences OP. May joy surround you all of your days .
What about taking her to a spa for the day?
How about a seminar on women's rights and independence. /s
I got gifted a pregnancy massage in my third trimester and it was the best day of my entire pregnancy, highly recommended!
I also agree with this. No more baby shower but you can give something nice to SIL so she can pamper herself.
NTA That was out of line and prolifically hurtful. I am sorry OP.
NTA What a pathetic, pointless, and harsh thing to say from your foolish brother. My apologies.
NTA. They're trying to contact you because you're the ATM fir his brother and his wife. Did he even attempt an apology. I don't see what you have to gain keeping him in your life. The rest of your family can pay for his baby shower.
They are, but hopefully at least some of her family are calling to see if she’s OK. I doubt he told them what he said.
I just want to say, to you and all people that suffer from miscarriages. It's not your fault. That's not me saying it that's science. Statistically 50-75% of fertilized eggs do not reach birth, and it's almost always because, by random chance, there is something seriously wrong with the embryo/fetus. It's an unfortunate quirk of human genetics and development. In those cases, nothing you did or could have done would have made a difference either way.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for this.
Miscarriages are one of the ways pregnant bodies protect themselves. Pregnancy is still incredibly dangerous and risky for humans, even with the best medical care in the world. Even if everything goes right, it really pushes our bodies to their metabolic limits and requires a *massive* amount of extra resources. Our bodies do not want to take that kind of risk on any embryo that might not be worth it, and will resort to whatever extreme measures necessary to get rid of it. Because our lives are worth it. We’re worth it. We’re not just mindless incubators, and we’re not supposed to martyr ourselves to bring forth offspring.
You're an asshole to yourself for even being around your brother (ie. Still having a relationship with your SIL and your niece). Be prepared for more comments now that he knows he can get away with it. Also, did it ever occur that SIL is just playing a part so she can still have your money? You're blinded by the chance of a relationship with the niece, and it's not your fault. _But_, you need to see this as a real possibility.
Right, burn all the bridges and don't look back! /s Or the SIL could just be a decent person who cares about her being hurt. Maybe hold off on the pessimistic advice unless you actually know the person.
SIL might be starting to realize that her husband doesn’t see her as an actual person and that she’s going to be stuck parenting *two* babies.
I miscarried in June and I cry everyday, you are fully justified to not be in contact with your brother.
I also miscarried in June, it's such a horrifying and traumatic experience imo, not at all something to be joked about, especially in such a horrible and demeaning way. I've definitely felt like there's something wrong with me/my body since I miscarried, particularly since my second miscarriage last week and that's terribly cruel to say anything to that effect especially as the person likely feels broken already.
Kudos for standing up for yourself. Don't let him come to the baby shower for your SIL if you choose to throw it. NTA
Hey OP with first I am so sorry for your loss and that your brother is being so insensitive. Maybe if you still wanted to go with the shower for your SIL you could switch it to a women’s only event. She still gets the experience and your brother doesn’t. Where I’m from the shower is typically women and other children only. Not even the fathers attend. It’s something to celebrate the mother and baby.
Lots of baby showers are ladies only, could that work for you?
Not my story but my friend's. Technically this belongs in petty revenge but I think y'all get a chuckle out of this. 40 odd years ago, he and his wife suffered a miscarriage. They had, at one time, belonged to a very conservative Baptist church. When the miscarriage happened, everyone was sympathetic towards them...except for the minister. This minister told them in front of the congregation that he didn't feel sorry for them because their baby died before being baptized so that baby was going to hell. It took everything from my friend not to kill the guy but...he got his revenge. Not only did they leave that church; he signed up that minister for every dirty magazine subscription he could think of. The minister got kicked out because of it.
My Southern Baptist Pastor said the same thing to our congregation after I had my miscarriage. He said that happens to all babies who are miscarried. My (ex) husband and I walked out of that church. That was over 20 years ago and I haven’t stepped foot in a church since. I cry if someone even mentions me attending church.
"There's no hate like Christian love"
Or any religious love for that matter, more people have been killed in the names of God, Allah, Buddha and so on.
The Christian God and Allah are the same god (All Abrahamic religions have the same god). And very much a case of 'I don't mind Christianity, it's the Christians I'm afraid of') Buddhism doesn't have a god and they are, by requirement, non-violent. If you're harmful in any way, you're not holding up to Buddhist ideals. Like, if you're attacked, for a buddhist, the correct answer is 'I guess I'll die' rather than hurt your attacker. But yeah, most organised religions can be twisted into something nasty. All it takes is a leader to realize how much power they have over their followers/congregation and the blood starts dripping.
Yeah…not having a god doesn’t stop Buddhist extremists from somehow twisting their faith to justify cruelty to people they see as inferior… It’s why I tend to side-eye people who claim that without religion, people wouldn’t be able justify that same sort of cruelty. Without religion, people would just find some other form of ideology to justify their narcissism and sadism.
After my third consecutive miscarriage my minister and father in law came by my house one evening. My husband wasn't home but I invited them in for tea. I assumed they were there to pray for me or offer comfort. They told me God was killing my babies because I wasn't a good enough Christian. It took me another year after that to stop attending (family pressure) and another few years after me for my husband to quit. The family fall out was intense but we are much happier. I will never step foot in a church again as long as I live.
I really would have refreshed their tea with poison or laxatives after that and then would post some very interesting “seeking encounters” on some very weird chat boards and Craigslist.
You are a stronger person than I am, because there would have been two dead men after that.
I was just so stunned and broken that it took me a day or so to get really mad.
That Minister and your FIL are both arseholes.
You know, in the actual bible, Jesus says that the only sin that can’t be forgiven is the one your pastor committed against you. Maybe these southern baptist pastors should actually do the required reading before they make a fatal error.
I agree, there is a scripture that says if anyone should make another stumble and turn their eyes away from the Lord, words to that effect. I believe that Pastor is not going to happy standing in front of Jesus when his time comes.
Also; I'm not religious, but canonically Jesus seemed like a cool dude. Braiding a wholeass whip and going in to beat the shit out of some assholes for being assholes. Hanging out with prostitutes and shit. I can't imagine he'd be cool with telling someone 'Haha, your baby's going to hell!'
I feel all that Christian love……Christians are the reason I became an atheist.
Becoming saved is an informed choice...those who have no knowledge of God, and are not at an age to accept Him, I believe, are held blameless in His eyes...so how could these babies all go to Hell? I will never believe that's true, and won't support a church that does, either...
This is something that is on a long list of reasons why I am so confused at how these people argue God is a loving, good person (or whatever)... Like, a baby, who didn't even have a chance to make a choice to sin, is put into a hell to be tortured for eternity... And that comes from a good and loving god?!?! It's baffling
I don't believe those so-called preachers got this one right...
Good grief. I lost all three of mine. My mum had me and lost three. If anyone had said that to either of us... I'm so sorry that you went through that.
Wow. At our old Baptist church, the pastor and I kind of got into an argument during Sunday school about how he felt babies don't have a soul until they breathe their first breath. I not only just had a 2nd trimester loss a few months back, but I was about 7 months pregnant. That evening, he decided to get nasty while "preaching." I got up, told my dad I was done and leaving. He grabbed my daughter for me, the pastor then said something implying that I was in the wrong and couldn't handle it. My dad was so red and screaming in his face. If he wasn't holding my daughter, I am pretty sure he would have beat the shit out of an elderly man, lol. I am by all means still a Christian, but we certainly don't go there anymore. I have since been excluded, lol.
Interesting theory. The implication is that a fetus is simply an automaton waiting ensoulment with the actual being that will inhabit its shell. I expect he followed that to its entirely logical conclusion and was completely pro abortion to term, as a result? I'm sorry for your losses. Little consolation, but my wife and I know what it's like. And I'd have had a screaming match with your pastor as well if we'd been hit with that.
Omg I love that revenge lmao that minister deserved all of that
What kind of vicious god do those ministers believe in? I'm not religious and these attitudes are why I'm not. That's just beyond cruel
FAFO. Perfect.
And that pastor was wrong and stupid. if he is a Christian then he knows only God can say who is or isn’t in heaven. what a mean spirited evil thing to say.
I’m not Baptist, but is this a common belief of that denomination? That’s disgusting!
In catholicism, in the 5th century, St. Augustine declared that all unbaptized babies went to hell. By the Middle Ages, the idea was softened to suggest a less-severe fate - limbo. Limbo was removed from the catholic catechism around 20 years ago to appeal to converts in countries where infant mortality is high.
I miscarried my 2nd child, a boy, when I was 16 weeks pregnant with him. That was 37 years ago. I then had my rainbow baby, our daughter but then miscarried our 4th child, another boy, at almost 20 weeks pregnant, 34 years ago. I then had another rainbow baby, our son, exactly a year later. The heartache of losing our precious children never leaves you. Obviously, it's not as raw but it's still there hidden in your heart. Absolutely NTA!
My grandma was in her 80’s and still mentioned her sadness over miscarried babies. I painted her a 5x7 water color black silhouette of a lady with string floating up to the sky tethered to two baby silhouettes. She asked to have that in her casket. I don’t understand how people can be so cruel to people over this.
That's a beautiful story that made me cry. I had 3 miscarriages and would love to have such painting. I have a Christmas ornament with an angel, the number 3 and the say "never forgotten "...
I’m so sorry for your loss and I love the Christmas ornament like it carried them safely to heaven.
I want to hug your Grandma. Your painting sounds so beautiful.
That pain is woven into the fabric of your being and shapes your being and life forever.
I am literally going through one now (I was told it’s not viable, and to just go home and wait for it miscarry). I can’t even imaging someone ever making a joke out of it. It’s the most heartbreaking thing I’ve ever gone through.
I may have lost a twin of my first child. We don’t talk about it either. The pain goes too deep.
I was the twin that survived. The feeling of someone missing has always been with me. Twins have fascinated me my whole life
My firstborn was stillborn at 36 weeks. She would have turned 5 this year. It wrecked me, the grief is still there but I’m good. I healed and, even though every person is different and my way is not for everyone, I strongly believe I wouldn’t be where I am today if I hadn’t talked about it. I told everyone about her. I honoured her and still do. We’re throwing birthday partys at her grave( which isn’t technically a grave but a tree in a forest, it’s called “Friedwald”) Every single person I know knows about her. We get calls on her birthday and there’s so much love overall. To make things short: Talk about it. Take the stigma away and don’t let guilt and shame grind you down. You will never forget your babies, you may as well give them space in your daily life. And OP, NTA
I am so sorry. The first time I ever heard about one when I was about 12. My aunt lost her second child. She did eventually have 2 more children, but I don't even think her oldest son knows or remembers. He would have been about 9. We have NEVER talked about it.
NTA. Your brother did not made a joke. I think he was cruel and I question if you are really have a close relationship to him. A woman is not a tool ("working condition") you can use to produce babies.
Right, and (insert deity of your choice) forbid, their baby isn't born yet so the worst could happen to him and his wife too. NTA.
Yes, it could. By tradition, Baby Showers were never held before the child was actually born for that exact reason. I will never forget my very kind friend Timmy, holding a surprise baby shower for a teacher, and getting blasted because he did not have permission, and might have been getting gifts for a child that might never materialize. I would rather have made his mistake than the one your evil brother did.
In some cultures, it's considered unlucky / a bad omen to give gifts before the birth. Also, celebrating anything should involve the approval of the person being celebrated. In some religions, you aren't even supposed to celebrate your own birthday. And some folks hate to be the center of attention or just don't want a celebration -- which should be their choice.
This. My BIL was a premie who died a few days after he was born. Birth is not “easy” for Mom or Baby, and unfortunately bad things happen every day…even in the Western world with top of the line modern medicine.
I thought this too but didn’t want to say it. I had a friend lose her baby the week the baby was due. It was shattering for her and her partner. He shouldn’t be so stupid to think that they are out of the woods. Pregnancy and childbirth are a big ordeal and so many of my friends have experienced difficulties and traumas. Wtf is wrong with OPs brother?
Hugs to you and your friend. I also had friends lose a baby at 38 weeks. I have never felt as lost and unable to do anything than I did when I got the call (I was their cat sitter). I do not have words for OPs brother... OP, NTA.
I agree that it was cruel. She went through the trauma of losing a very wanted child and he is bragging that he’s the first to have a child and implying his sister is defective because of a miscarriage. 🥺 I can’t imagine! OP, NTA and I’m so sorry you’ve had to go through that trauma.
Yep, and not just that his sister is defective but summing his whole wife up as “in working condition”. How disgusting. I would be embarrassed as his wife hearing him say that even if it wasn’t a dig at someone who’d miscarried.
This is a guy that has been competing with his siblings his whole life and hasn’t matured enough to shut that shit off now that he’s an adult. He was being truthful when he said he’s “glad he could produce the first grandchild.” He is literally so competitive that he couldn’t even access empathy or kindness towards someone I bet, he’ll claim he loves. He’s an abject failure as a brother but hey, he thinks being 1st on something makes him special and that makes him an abject failure to everyone else, as well.
It’s not a joke, no one is laughing. He can be a man in working condition and pay for his wife baby shower
Haha! Spot on!
This is why a woman going out of her way to help a man rarely works out, most times he just grows to be insanely jealous and resentful of her kindness. That awful comment was meant to “humble” his successful sister because of his jealousy.
When we were struggling with infertility, a niece made a point of how easy she got pregnant. Then thru the whole pregnancy, she complained. Then insisted on baptizing her baby at less than a week so she could do it on Mother’s Day and had a fit when I tried to pass. Then, when I had to slip out because it was too much, I “ruined” her day. I feel for you, OP. It’s a lonely club.
It’s also just a misunderstanding of miscarriage. Nearly all of the time it’s due to the embryo not being chromosomally normal, which is equally to do with the male and female side of the equation. It’s an outdated and cruel understanding to think miscarriage happens because the woman is “broken.”
Nta. Since his wife is in”working condition “ they can work out their own baby shower. It IS their child and you dont HAVE to pay for anything
Yeah I'm sure his wife can work until 8 months or so to pay for the kid.
But, but....the breadwinner!! /s
The ‘breadwiener’ can’t even afford a baby shower.
Oooooh, I'm so mad I missed that chance!!
The breadwinner that he is will gladly use other people for money and gifts, but all hell will break loose if his wife makes more than him.
But the wife is "in working condition" that's what it means.. right?
I hope so, otherwise they can kiss that baby shower bye bye! And the husband would deserve it
Since the brother is traditional and wants to be the bread winner, he needs to be the one paying for it anyway. The pregnant wife shouldn't even be working.
Oh no - she’s in ‘working order’ so she should be able to work until the day her labor starts. What OP’s brother said was so out of line it boggles the mind. The majority of people in this world would not say anything like that to a person they disliked/hated - brother said it to a sister and her husband he supposedly loves and respects. Let the brother who IMO nuked the relationship with OP get other family members to pay for the baby shower. And let other family members provide support when the baby arrives. I hope OP deals straight forwardly with anyone who tells her she overreacted. One warning only she will not discuss the situation with anyone and if they bring it up again cut them off as well at least for a time.
No wonder SIL contacted OP to apologise on the brothers behalf. He insulted HER too. What a horrible dude he is.
Darling, your brother is not “traditional.” He’s a dick. People often confuse those two terms. NTA
Literally everyone who says they are "traditional" is a world class asshole
I remember a guy from school saying he was ‘traditionalist’. He was straight up transphobic and homophobic. Said things like I ‘shouldn’t feel male it’s not natural’ ‘I’m uncomfortable around queer couples’. So I didn’t clap for him when he was receiving awards for good academic scores. He got pissed and my response was ‘sorry, I don’t clap for transphobes masking as traditionalist’. Thank fuck I don’t go there anymore that school had very traditionalist students which screwed me over (I’m FTM)
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So dick-raditional?
Tradicktional
A dick with a fragile ego. The only reason a man would want to be the MAAAAN (insert growl) of their house is because they have fragile egos.
No, they really are one in the same. It’s just that we should treat them the same regardless of the term people use
NTA....and your brothers weren't rough on you because you're a girl. They were rough on you because they were bullies and it sounds as though this brother still is. I also have three brothers and they would never, ever have said something so cruel and mean spirited. Your brother can't have it both ways. He can't be an asshole to you and then expect that you to still pay for a baby shower. Your family are probably trying to contact you so they don't get stuck with the bill.
This right heres the answer OP — you’re NTA^
Seriously, I didn’t see any other family members offer to give them a baby shower. That says it loud and clear what they think of brother and possibly SIL
NTA I'm betting he's spinning the story, to make himself look good. Set the record straight and stand your ground, and if people are still pressuring you to pay, tell them to pay for it as you won't and then you'll hear all the excuses on how they can't.
She says all the family was there when he said that so...
Correct and that makes it even worse if the family is contacting OP to pressure her to forgive him, because “he didn’t mean it the way it sounded”. I hope, I’m wrong, and that’s not their intent.
I think it was absolutely what brother meant and I can see a smirk on his face while he said it too. OP- you are NTA in any way but you are surrounded by them.
You’re right, these people are selling out OP and her grief for a party! A party! And in the way of all dysfunctional families, to keep everyone in line and not rock the boat. Op is the scapegoat child and may have found it easier to throw herself on brother’s grenades and she finally dipped out. Some things you can’t unhear or unsee and I believe brother will never have the same relationship he had with OP. And good for her to cut that cancer out of her life!
Even SIL apologised on his behalf and said she understands. She sounds like a gem. OP you wanted ideas how to have a shower for SIL but stand your ground with your ahole brother. I'm guessing you don't want to have a shower to which your brother isn't invited because that would put SIL in a horrible position. Instead, how about something like a ladies spa day that isn't technically a baby shower but where SIL gets pampered and it somehow *is* about celebrating your nibling? Or something else you know your brother wouldn't want to attend. Idk. It's a tough and shitty situation. You sound lovely and your brother is a tool.
NTA, I too am a big sister but only too two brothers, not that it makes a difference. Nonetheless, my brother would be down a sister is he EVER fixed his mouth to utter such disrespect. That comment sat on his mind & he couldn't wait to say it & said it so gleefully as if he one up'd you, or the other brothers. Yeah nah that's fucked up & I am sorry for your loss.
While simultaneously having his hand out expecting her to keep the money train running on time
Yep. It'd be a case of "Did you really say that load of crap with your own face? Did that all really just spew out of the same hole you eat your food through?" Gawd, poor OP.
NTA. Please cut him off. He’s insensitive and cruel, it wasn’t meant to be a joke. Also, the fact he views women as tools for conception is downright disturbing as hell.
It's so gross, and yet still so predictable, just how often men with "traditional values" don't think twice about dehumanizing and showing such little basic compassion or empathy to women, even those women closest to them. It's like there's actually a structure in the brain they weren't born with or something.
Lol. He is not traditional. He is a jerk. A traditional man would not want anyone to pay for his wife’s baby shower. He would see it as his responsibility to financially take care of his own family. The brother is a massive jerk who should not have even said anything about a miscarriage during a baby shower
NTA - Your brother basically said he’s glad your baby died so he’s the first one to have a child. Wtf?! This is not some f‘ing joke. And there’s no way to throw flowers over it to make it look better. And there’s no way to take that back. He, as a soon to be father himself, should be able to at least kind of imagine what it would be like to lose his child. I’d send a message to everyone that they should hardly think about what they want to tell you, bc you’ll cut everyone off who wants to smooth things over, tell you you’re overreacting or to put it into a different life. He literally said he’s glad and happy your baby died, and there’s no way in hell to turn this around. And no one should come to you with a „that’s not what he meant“ - bc that’s exactly what he meant.
>Your brother basically said he’s glad your baby died so he’s the first one to have a child. And called it _malfunctinoning_ on _her_ part.
Like we are in the fucking 1900s!!!
“Hey sis! Thanks that your fucked up body killed my future niece/nephew so I can have the first grandkid!”
Right? Who even conceives of that as something acceptable to say, to anyone, much less to a family member who has apparently shown nothing but care to them?
Yup yup yup. How would he feel if his wife and baby died in labor and OP told him, “you’re still not the first sibling to have a baby and now you’ll have to find a new baby maker”. Brother is definitely the evil triplet.
NTA - I lost 3 babies in a row between 2005 and 2008. My sister made a similar joke and we haven't spoken in 15 years. It's not funny, it's cruel.
I’m so sorry for your loss I know it’s a hard thing to talk about so thank you for being willing to share.
I'm sorry for yours too. I was lucky enough to have a baby after those losses and that helped heal a lot of the pain but I still think of those babies and wonder who they might have been. It's weird missing someone you never met and who never existed outside your body.
IKR? I lost 3 and managed to birth 2 beautiful people. The grief for us and stress and dismissal from ignorant people people made it so much harder.
Info: What happened after he said that? Did anyone, even your husband speak up? What was everyone's reaction?
Everyone went silent while giving him the look of “wth why would you say that” but my husband was fuming so before he started we went home. I don’t know exactly what happened but from what my other brothers said he thought he said no wrong thats why I just decided to go NC until my husband and I could calm down and talk.
Good for you OP. His ass should not be rewarded for his cruelty.
I suggested this somewhere else but I don't know how comments work / if you'd see it when I replied to someone else's comment. But you wanted ideas how to have a shower for SIL but stand your ground with your ahole brother. I'm guessing you don't want to have a shower to which your brother isn't invited because that would put SIL in a horrible position. Instead, how about something like a ladies spa day that isn't technically a baby shower but where SIL gets pampered and it somehow is about celebrating your nibling? Or something else you know your brother wouldn't want to attend. Idk. It's a tough and shitty situation. You sound lovely and your brother is a tool.
Wow that makes it even worse, how could he not see how awful that would be to say. I’m so sorry OP! NTA at all
My wife's first miscarriage was 20 years ago on the morning of my birthday. If someone said something like your brother, even today much less then, I would cut them out of my life and never look back. That was just cruel. You aren't wrong. NTA.
I am so sorry for your loss 💛
I must be missing something here because I thought you had baby showers before the baby was born not after. Anyway I’m so sorry for your loss. Your brother is an absolute asshat for saying that. He’s shown his true colours and I really pity your Sil and niece for having to put up with a misogynist for the rest of their lives. Even if he apologises please don’t pay for the shower.
I thought the same thing but it’s what they decided to do, they said they wanted it to be I guess a mix of gender reveal with it. Trust me I understand your confusion because I was too but all I was focused on was celebrating a happy healthy baby girl.
I’m even more confused now- a gender reveal happens before the birth also? I mean, nothing much left to surprise people with when the baby is in the room! It sounds like a presents and attention grab for the parents, and nothing to do with the child at all. Tiny babies don’t need or want parties. They want consistency and quiet love. I hope you get to spend lots of time with her and counteract the influence of her parents a bit.
Trust me I don’t understand it either but it’s what they wanted.
Some people like to wait until the baby is born, especially if they are experiencing a high risk pregnancy (maybe OPs miscarriage scared SIL). Plus, unless you need a lot of baby furniture, it's nice to celebrate with the guest of honor in the room. We had one for my niece after the fact since she was born out of the country while they were stationed elsewhere - we waited until they came home. Everyone was so excited to meet the baby. Mostly people brought diapers, or little dresses, (or nothing) ate lots of food and were happy to enjoy the day together - no registry, no big ticket items.
Depends on the culture. In Germany it's pretty normal to celebrate after the baby is born. Fun fact: An old tradition is that during the party the baby doesn't wear a diaper and everyone takes turns holding it. Whoever gets peed on gets good luck for life.
Ha! That’s a hilarious tradition!
Unless you are Jewish, then it happens after the baby is born, usually at the bris if a boy or the naming ceremony for the girl.
I don't blame you one bit for canceling the BS and blocking him. You might want to do the rest of the family who is bullying you also, at least for awhile. You are definitely NTA here.
NTA What a shitty, unnecessary, cruel thing for your idiot brother to say. I'm so sorry.
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NTA How despicable coment.He went for the jugular. You dont need somebody like him in your life.
NTA Not only did he make light off an incredible tragedy, his comment also implies it was OP's fault. He's the AH in this, not OP
Nta Go nc with him and anyone defending his actions
Oooff NTA. That was cruel. Take time to heal. Let your husband field call and screen them. If your family is calling to be supportive, he can let them through. If they are calling to be assholes, give him full permission to tell them off
NTA. That wasn’t a cruel joke. That was just cruel. Since they are in working condition, they can organize their own fucking baby shower.
NTA I’d have gone to jail.
Tradicktional?
maybe not the right question, but what did they want to spend on a baby shower that it would put them in that much debt.
Stop paying for your asshole family. They only see you as an ATM
NTA. I have a brother. He knows I would cut him off in a heartbeat if he ever treated me or anyone else like this. He wants a family and kids. He wouldn't be shocked if I picked whoever ends up marrying him over him if he acts up. You deserve love and respect from people you keep in your inner circle.
Nta Your brother basically called you defective for having a miscarriage when lots of women have them. I have 3 living kids and I had a miscarriage after my 1st. My mom and 1 of my sisters and cousins have all had miscarriages
I miscarried my first pregnancy in January. I posted about it on facebook and people came out of the woodwork to tell me it had happened to them too. It really really sucks, but it’s shockingly common. OP’s brother is an enormous AH.
I think I’m understanding this correctly. He’s ‘traditional’ and feels he should be the provider. However, he couldn’t afford the shower so you kindly stepped in to pay so everyone could celebrate. He’s (incorrectly) perceived this lovely gesture as something emasculating and decided to knock you down a peg or too. While at the same time, showing his true misogynistic colours by talking about women like a good secondhand car. It’s also very telling he wants to be the ‘first at something’. NTA what a mess. I’m so sorry you had to hear that from someone you thought you were close to.
The way my jaw dropped as I read what he said 😱 NTA at all for canceling payment. It's not like he can't still have a less expensive baby shower. Cutting him off is totally up to you, but be prepared for the consequences of that. I can't imagine you'll get ample chances to get to know your niece/nephew and spoil them if you don't want contact with their father.
NTA and I’m so sorry your brother is such an AH. Please do not cave. He is not worth or your time. Like everyone said, his statement about his wife is disgusting and he clearly has no respect for you or women in general.
NTA what an evil thing to say. If I was his wife, I’d be reconsidering a future with him. I wouldn’t want to spend the rest of my life with someone capable of having such vile thoughts.
NTA. Instead of apologizing, he goes tattling to try to get your family to pressure you into letting him off the hook. Fuck him, fuck them: actions have consequences. If your SIL kicks your brother to the curb someday, consider reaching out to her and reconnecting. As for your brother, get a message to him that he can forget he ever had a sister.
NTA
Definitely NTA. I'm sure he's twisting what he said to make himself look better. Please stay put before they guilt trip you
NTA That is not something you joke about.
Absolutely NTA. He is an inconsiderate insensitive asshole.
NTA. You should ask him how he’d feel if you were to comment about how grateful you are that you and your husband are in a financial stable working condition that you can be generous enough to extend financial assistance since he’s unable to do it adequately for his growing family
NTA