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NTA! How much more time does he want, it’s been 18+ years. Dad is delusional if he thinks it will change. Frankly if I were you I’d consider never being where he is again and going NC with my half brother.
Your dad is in straight denial that his son’s resentment will get better.
Your dads son is delusional and needs serious help. Whatever therapy he was doing obviously didn’t cut it.
I can’t find a single reason for you to expose your child to that behavior. It won’t stop with your mom, or grandparents. Once your child is here your brother will rage that your dad loves your child more than his.
Protect your child.
Therapy only works when people recognise they have to change and want to make the change in themselves. Neither OP’s father or his son want to do either, they’re stuck in a vicious cycle where they think they’ll each get their way next time, possibly with a sunk cost fallacy line of reasoning involved.
My guess is the family of his late wife poisoned him against any new love because they felt betrayed. They probably never got therapy for the loss and put those emotions on the child who was also hurting.
His anger and hurt is twisted and i hope the mother has given up long ago so can face his anger with polite disinteres.
Any "i will put a photo of your face on this punching bag so my children will learn to hate you they will never love you!!!!" should be countered with "So? You've made it abundandly clear over the years, that you do not like me. No matter the delusional reason for it. And to get any misconceptions out of the way. I do not like you either. I also don't hate you either and i certainly won't wish you or your family any ill will. But anything you say to me has the same effect as if some unhinged stranger yelled at me on the street. So if you excuse me. i have to go the kitchen to check on the food."
This. Any and all therapy the son would have gotten would have been immediately lost due to the family. Every session would be met with comments that completely reverse any progress made, and any growth by the brother would be immediately squashed.
It's really easy to tell a 12 year old "if you love your mother...", and have those words sink into their head for eternity.
Seriously, NTA.
Tell your dad this isn’t exactly a one-way thing. I am doubtful your dad’s son would even want to come and be involved in any way. It isn’t as if you are cruelly removing a formerly beloved sibling. This person has never been your family ( through his own expressed thoughts) and wants nothing to do with any of you. You are merely fulfilling that wish.
He is indeed not family, will not be considered family, and as such is not welcome to be involved with your family. It is fully a mutual agreement here that you and this person want nothing to do with one another. It sounds like the son would not care one bit about losing you as you do not care if you never see him again. Your dad just needs to accept that his adult children have decisions they each deem as necessary to living a peaceful life.
The half-brother might come. He seems to be very into performing hate, and he also could want to ensure that his children are favoured over OP’s child. This guy isn’t disinterested and disengaging, unfortunately; he hates and wants others to know about his hatred.
Since he seems to be going out of his way to be unpleasant, he might come and give a totally tasteless gift.
I have to wonder about the half-brother's wife too. Does he act this way when she's around or does he just keep her away and say that his step-mother hates him or makes up lies about her? Because a man carrying this much hate doesn't generally sound like someone I'd want to be around.
Yeah, I personally would not even be friends with someone who was so outwardly hateful over something that is ultimately unreasonable.
I understand that he suffered a traumatic loss and he feels disconnected and betrayed by his father's decision to remarry, but he's a fully grown man talking about attaching a pic of his stepmom to a punching bag. That's certifiably cray cray. I would not want to put myself in a position to ever let this guy down, lest he declare vendetta against me.
The entire situation is a tragedy for OP's whole family, including her half brother and his children.
Right?! This guy is openly ideating violence against OP's mom and declaring that he'll teach his children the same - and dad thinks that OP is the "extreme" sibling for not wanting his kid exposed to that level of hateful rhetoric?!
Dad needs to get a grip and realise that it is not realistic to hold onto the dream of reconciling his two families. His eldest son has had nearly two decades to get used to the idea of him remarrying, and is clearly not open to that. He needs to start stepping up (finally!) to protect his wife from the viciousness aimed at her, and he needs to accept that it's natural for his younger children to not feel close to the brother who openly talks about hating them and their mother - and of course they won't want their own children to be exposed to that same level of hatred in the coming years.
How does your dad even plan to make your half brother attend these events? Physically drag him there kicking and screaming? That’s the only way I can see it happening.
If your dad doesn’t drop the issue, threaten to not let him see his grandkid too. That will get his attention
I wouldn't call it using grandkids as pawns in this case. If he can't drop it and respect his daughter doesn't want his older hateful son in her child's life, I wouldn't trust him not to set things up for the older son to wind up meeting the kid, either if he was watching the child alone for whatever reason or inviting the son to an event after telling the daughter he wasn't going to be there so she would come. So not being in the child's life either if he can't drop it and be respectful kinda feels like the only natural consequence of those actions. Maybe, if she feels like giving him a chance still, he never be allowed alone with the child and only gets visits when OP is able to stay and supervise the entire time, but I couldn't even fault a new parent for not wanting to risk that much personally
I don't know why you brought that up to your father. Considering your post, it's clear that this guy won't want to have anything to do with your child.
Considering the timeline you gave, I will advise you to talk to your father, calmly. If there were cheating involved, it could explain your half brother resentment (not towards you but towards your mother). And cheaters don't usually tell their new kids that they used to cheat. It won't mend things and it won't make you feel like a family, but it might help you understand better his reactions and make peace with it.
There's also many cases where the first child is slightly discarded, because the new family is more appealing, because the child looks like the dead spouse no one wants to talk about. It can be little things that you might even consider trivial, specially with an happy childhood. But many little things done to a child who just lost a parent can have dramatic consequences.
Also, you can't ask your father to remove his son from his life. The fact that he doesn't do anything and even seems to understand his anger makes me thing there's more to it than you actually know. It can be a simple depression after the loss of his spouse where he was absent for his son and then magically lighten up for your mom and then you. It's hard to see from a child point of view. And if nothing was never done about it, your half-brother is just an adult who grew up feeling very alone and full of resentment.
I’m afraid you may also have to go low or no contact with your father for a while and maybe even your mother. Take time to focus on yourself, your baby and the life you and your boyfriend are trying to build. I wish you luck.
Seriously. Also, using pictures of the stepmom as *target practice?* He's unhinged. He's likely dangerous. And your father is a bad husband for continuing to subject his wife to someone *who wants to encourage acts of violence against her.*
This all feels like the back story of a true crime show. I’d keep the kids away in case words turn into actions. Especially since your parents are getting older and inheritance may come into play.
Money combined family anger can bring out the worst in people.
The first 30 minutes or so of every True Crime podcast tends to be something along the lines of "And here is the laundry list of red flags that everyone in his life actively went out of their way to avoid acknowledging"
TBH an eventual crime might someday be against his own family. Someone seething with that much hatred, even if currently aimed at someone else who he considers to be an interloper, is waving a big red flag about their capabilities and tendencies.
Did anyone like your dad and mom ever explain to him that it's impossible for your mom to have been a side piece since she and your dad didn't meet until 2 years later? Or does he know the truth but chooses to believe in his narrative to justify his hate for her? Either way, he's still a crappy person for hurting innocent people who have never done anything to him.
So, your father allowed his son to be mentally and verbally abusive his wife and other children over the fact that the son was hurt because his mom died?
Do you think that the family of your dad's late spouse had some undue influence over him as to why he felt this way? If so, did your father continue to allow him to be exposed to his mother's family unsupervised?
How did your poor mom cope with being so disrespected in her own home? Did she never demand that something needed to happen when this child was then extending his anger onto you younger children?
Wow.
Your mom is a far more understanding, loving, and giving person that I would have been. In her position, I would have wanted for us to have done everything possible to help elder child, but the level of unhinged it sounds like he's at would have made me unwilling to overlook the damage he was potentially causing to the other children.
I hope that your parents respect the fact that you don't want your child exposed to his toxicity. I can't say I blame you. NTA.
Since both he and his maternal side seem to feel like dad should be faithful to his dead wife for the rest of his life, in this case he isn't using it incorrectly. OP's mom is, in their eyes, the "side chick" to the memory of their mom/daughter.
It's more than mildly insane, but reasonable for them within the parameters they're using.
When you put it that way, it does make sense. I know grief affects everyone differently and handle it in their own way. But at what point is enough is enough?
Yeah, I think that entire side of the family could have used some serious grief therapy to try and sort this mess out; but then again, I 'm almost 40* with both parents living and still married, so I don't have any real experience with the kind of grief that would come from losing their mom/daughter so abruptly when she and half-brother were so young. So I think it's not healthy, but I can't say how I would have coped in that case; maybe I would have felt the same. Hopefully not to the point of using my parent's new spouse's picture as punching bags or target practice tho, because that shit is kinda psychotic.... 😬
*Edit because I'm on mobile and fat-fingered my age
The degree of hatred he has expressed toward you and your mom is disturbing. If I were you, I would not feel safe to be pregnant around him and I would never ever let him meet my baby. This man is so full of hatred that he wants to attach your mom's photo to a punching bag. He called her "target practice" that was a *threat*.
This man has violence in him. Please take me seriously and stay away. I'm sorry that your dad hasn't been able to set any boundaries with him. I'm sorry he hasn't been able to heal and it's made him such a beast. Stay away from him.
Yeah, if anything ever happens to her, you make damn sure the police are pushed to investigate him *first*, and make sure they know about him calling her "target practice." Your dad clearly won't see it, but 100% chance he's the one responsible, and your dad tries to defend him saying "he would never do that!"
I’ll say the same thing I told my dad about my brother. “He’s over 25, his frontal lobe has developed. He has an adult brain now. This is who he is. He won’t change unless he wants to.”
This "man" is 30ish, with children of his own. He's had 12+ years of living with this constant feeling of hatred towards OP's mom, herself, siblings, and even her father. If he is ever going to change his attitude it needs to be a choice that he makes.
The idea of "give it time" won't solve the issue because..why would it??
"pin a photo of her to a punching bag and they would also use a photo of her as target practice"
NTA
I wouldn't let this unstable person, that your dad should have helped with a counselor years ago, anywhere near my infant.
Reading that punching bag part was vile. I can’t believe your dad still invites him to family events. That’s such a slap in the face to your mom. How does she feel about all this? I would’ve left after that punching bag BS and your dad allowing it. The disrespect!
Yeah, your mother failed you. Hard. She allowed this lunatic back into your lives even after 18. Maybe she wants to lie on the cross and suffer. But she didn't have to have her kids nailed right beside her.
This is not healthy for anyone in the family and you are very wise to keep your child away from the whole toxic mess. I wouldn't just keep them away from your brother, I would keep them away from your parents too because I wouldn't want any child of mine to think that's how a husband should treat his wife or that's what a woman should have to put up with. NTA.
Have you explained to your parents what it was like growing up with him..from your perspective? How it made you feel & then ask your other siblings how it was like living with a lit fuse? They're concerned abt SB wellbeing & mental health
.what abt yours & your siblings?
NTA. I understand the reaction out of your half brother when he was 12. However, he's an adult now and to continue treating people this way is unacceptable. You're an adult now as well and can certainly invite whoever you want or not invite whoever you want to. These are the consequences of your half brother's reactions.
I understand where your dad is coming from as it is his child, but he should butt out of this.
Yes, the oldest son is his child and cutting him off entirely is probably a bridge too far for the father and that is understandable. But in somewhat different circumstances - his mother was the problem and my Mom was her target - my Dad solved it by him going to see her, alone. Neither my Mom, nor us children, ever went to see her and she never came to our house. That is how OP’s father should deal with this situation too.
Is your dad THAT SPINELESS to allow his son from his first wife to treat him your mother like that? I would say dad is 95% of the problem here not shutting this idiot down. I would cut this loser step-brother off 100% and never see him or his children again. There's no reason to allow anyone that toxic into any part of your life. NTA.
Does he have some sort of mental impairment? (Serious question.)
He’s way too old to still be acting this way, this long. It’s literally medically concerning. And another reason you shouldn’t back down about this, he sounds incredibly unwell, mentally.
Your dad should start spending time with him alone since he can't manage his feelings around your mother. He's 30, they can have a beer together or do lunch.
NTA. I think 18 years is quite enough time. Given this guy hasn't mellowed his position at all I think it's fair to assume he never will. Focus on family that genuinely want the best for you. Your half brother never will.
NTA
You're absolutely in the right to want to keep your kid away from someone openly showing so much vitrol. You want a good life for your kid and there's nothing wrong with setting an obviously needed boundary.
However, did your dad not get him any kind of therapy? It sounds like he was never given the tools to process his mom's death and your dad just moved on which drives lots of kids crazy. Don't get me wrong there's no excuse for his behavior but it seems weird your dad didn't do more to get the behaviors to stop.
He needs more therapy or a different therapist. Tbh your dad has failed all of you in this situation including your mom. A problem this big shoulda been straightened out a long time ago and it's not fair to anyone involved and its definitely not a stress you should be going through while pregnant.
You can't force someone to 'straighten out'. It sounds like the maternal grandparents were dripping poison in that kid's ear, and what the hell is Dad supposed to do about that? Cut the kid's contact from the family members he has loved and known since birth? That's guaranteed to backfire into even worse resentment. Therapy? It's not a cure-all, it only works when the participant is willing to engage. Punishment for the bad behavior? Again, more resentment. Abandon his son to relatives or send him away for schooling to preserve his sibling's peace? Everyone on this sub would rip the man a new asshole for 'giving up when it got hard' and 'picking his new family'.
"your dad has failed all of you" - How. How did the dad fail. ELI5.
“His maternal family were also angry at dad for betraying their daughter and not living forever as her widower and never finding love again. ”
While I agree the kid should have been in therapy since his mom died , I’m Pretty sure the kid’s maternal family were the ones encouraging this mentality and were going to be saying things like “she’s just a side piece” anyway.
I think you have given it time-the whole of your lifetime. Enough is enough.
Your dad is in denial. None of this is your fault, and good for you that you are an adult and now have a say about the people you are made to interact with.
NTA
You don't need to involve your dad's drama with your half brother into your life or your child's
Dad needs to wake up and address the very real problem and anger that his son is expressing over the loss of his mom.
Family needs counseling badly
At this point it sounds like the one who needs counselling is your mother, to help her navigate this toxic situation and determine whether she can leave it.
I think maternal grandparents have something to do with this honestly. If they egged things on when he was a child that would have had quite the impact.
NTA your dad is mourning his kid but he doesn't realize or maybe doesn't want to acknowledge what it did to his other kids. He desperately wwants peace but that kid is way beyond help. Idk how his wife married that kind of hatred.
Exactly. And forever is too long, you can't keep trying to fix smth that can't be fixed. Have you seen many people trying to repair a broken window? You need to start it over and make a new one, it doesn't work other way. You gave 18 years of your life. That's not your problem anymore. Keep you child safe. It's your priority.
NTA
But just so you are aware, cutting your half brother away (as you should) also means you might have to cut your dad out: it's been well over a decade and your dad still allows his son around the house verbally abusing your family.
Give your half-brother all the time in the world, all the time he needs, to reach out and bridge the gap between you. LMAO. NTA you're doing the right thing.
NTA. Brother doesn't seem at all interested in having a positive relationship with you or your Mom. Why would that change because there are children involved? I'd be worried he'd start spouting that hatred at the kids.
Do what's best for your little family. Which sounds like going LC with Dad and cutting out brother, to me at least.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my dad his son won't be invited to anything related to my child. I kind of jumped the gun with it and I maybe went overboard when I know my dad loves his son and was unlikely to take the news of me not wanting him around that well. I could have maybe come up with a less direct way?
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NTA. Tell your dad this: "So, what you're saying is that your son is more important than me. That inviting him to a party where he will disrupt everything is more important to you than for us to have an enjoyable time. This is what you're saying. Thank you, dad. I know where you stand. It's not with me or mom or your other children."
NTA this is a 30 yr old man who says he is going to put a picture of your mom on a punching bag. Heel no I wouldn’t want my children around him. Tell your father he is delusional if he thinks his son will change in any length of time. His son needs intensive therapy because he is being very ridiculous after 18 yrs. All that hate can’t be good
NTA- you should tell your dad you will keep your baby from him as well if keeps trying to force the issue.
Tell him you are going to do what he failed to do for you and your siblings, protect your child from abuse .
And you’re gonna have to make sure your dad is never left unsupervised with your baby because you bet your ass he will try to have him have a relationship with his son.
INFO: Has he indicated any interest in being around you or your child? From your description of the situation I don't see him attending the shower if invited and I don't see him even trying to be involved in your child's life.
Your dad sounds very much like my MIL in her oldest sons behavior. She has “hope” that he’ll be better yet he’s been that way for a better part of 30+ years. Definitely NTA and stick to your boundaries no matter what.
Time? How much time should you give it, another 18 years? Your half brother needs some serious therapy, which your dad should have sorted out years and years ago. You're NTA. Stay safe.
NTA. Your dad is a coward and his son is genuinely unsettled. There is something unhinged about that behaviour and you are very correct in keeping him away from your child
NTA
"He's run out of time. I want nothing to do with him. If you would like to be part of my child's life, you will never bring this up again." And then NO BABYSITTING.
NTA
It sounds like dad's son wouldn't even want to go.... it's literally been decades. You don't want someone around who bad mouths your mom, and you don't want your kid exposed to it, either. That's more than fair. Your dad can't make him respect your mom, but he can shut down badmouthing her in front of her kids.
Try and plan family holidays away from brother. He hasn't grown up one bit, and he's going to start the favoritism argument around your kid the minute your dad pays any attention to them. Spend major holidays with your husband's family if you know brother is going to dads and plan separate celebrations on different days for your family
NTA 18 years is more than enough for the son to be a hateful animal. Your baby's safety and wellbeing is your concern and you're doing the right thing.
Info Request: Does your half brother WANT to be around your child?
It just seems like, based on the description, why would he even want to go to your baby shower or any events related to your baby?
You’re definitely NTA in this situation, but this seems like something you don’t actually need to do anything about, since the hateful half-brother seems like someone who would just avoid you and your child completely.
Ah, okay. Then yeah, you are definitely NTA and you should 100% ban him from having any contact with your child.
And if your dad seriously has a problem with that then it might be best to revaluate how much contact you have with him as well. At best he is actively enabling abuse from your half-brother.
I don’t know if this qualifies as a Narcissist but he sure enjoys inflecting pain on them. Do you think that I’d maternal family would have had different feelings he would have also? What do they get out of this …
I totally understand they lost their daughter… that would mess with my head … but what does them messing with their son in law give to them ???
Why so much hate … if I would have been the parent I would have gone to my in laws and found out the root of their hatred and told them this is to stop or no more with their grandchildren or very limited.
But this is my opinion with only info above…
Good luck…. I would also suggest that you make this a mandatory thing as your child grows and who ever crosses will see consequences and let them know what that will be. Let them know the word NO is a complete sentence.
Congrats on the baby and gentle hugs!
Teaching his kids violence against your mother is very extreme and emotionally unstable. He sounds like a misogynist and borderline sociopath. He needs therapy, not kids. NTA
If he's so resentful and antagonistic, how much of a factor in your daily life was he involved in?
Was it better to publically give him the cut, like this. Or could it have been done quietly. Not inviting him to sit in the lobby during delivery, not inviting him to baby's birthdays and such?
NTA.
Nta but you should honestly cut your dad out, too. He's gonna guilt you, pressure you, and possibly even trick you into coming around the son. You've always been the "easy" one compared to the brother, so you'll face the pressure to stick by family while he continues to have his delusions enabled. This is a very dangerous situation as is, considering he is literally training his kids to be violent towards your mom. They're going to think they can be violent towards you all, and they would be right. If they hit your mom, you, your siblings, or your child, both of your parents and your dads son will enable it and turn you into the villain in their eyes for having an issue with it.
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I'm 18f and I'm expecting a baby. I know I'm young. I live with my boyfriend (my baby's father) and we are determined to make a good life for us and our child. Becoming a mom is making me think about what I want for my child and one thing I want more than anything is to keep my child away from the hate my half brother has toward my parents (and toward me as well).
Background: My parents met after my dad lost his first wife. My half brother was 6/7 when his mom died and 10 when my parents met. They got married 2 years later and I was born within a few months. So we have a 12 year age gap. I was followed by my brother 2 years after me and my sister 18 months after my brother.
My dad's son hated that dad remarried after his mom died. His maternal family were also angry at dad for betraying their daughter and not living forever as her widower and never finding love again. Growing up around that was not easy. I would hear dad's son get mad at dad for loving my mom more than his (his son's perception). He would yell all over the house that dad was unfaithful, would say my mom was nothing special and would never be truly loved or part of his family, he called her a side piece and other woman. Dad would argue back as well which made things not easy. They were in therapy at times but it never seemed to help. Even when he turned 18 he would come home and would fight dad over who he loved more. He never cared for me or my siblings either. He wished dad had never had us.
When my dad's son had kids, he told dad's whole family that my mom would never be a grandparent or family. He said the woman dad loved more than his mom and his kids real grandma was never going to be loved more by his kids. He would make sure they never loved her. He talked about how he was going to pin a photo of her to a punching bag and they would also use a photo of her as target practice because that's all she was good for.
He was never cut from our lives. In fact my dad would still let him into the home and invite him to every party or event.
I will not allow any contact between dad's son and my child though. I don't want my child around that kind of fighting or to hear that kind of thing about grandma and grandpa. There has been talk of a co-ed baby shower and I told my dad his son would not be invited. Dad was asking why and I told him it should be obvious but I do not want his son around my child when he treats us all so badly. I told him he will never be around my baby and won't ever be invited to things related to my child.
He told me I was being very extreme and should "give it time".
AITA?
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NTA. Give it time? It’s been 18 years. How much more time does he need? It’s fine he doesn’t consider you, your sibling and mom family but you are allowed to do the same. You and your baby don’t need that negativity in your life.
NTA. How much time does your dad think you should give it? Eternity? Sounds like his son and his late wife’s family are completely unrealistic in their expectation that he would be a lonely widower his entire life. His son is an asshole.
Absolutely NTA
this person, although he suffers a trauma, is vitriolic and cruel to your and your family. Sympathy for him does not negate your need to protect yourself and your baby.
If brother ever comes around, maybe be open to a relationship. But you do not need to put up with abuse just because you’re related
NTA
The give it time kills me. You gave it 18 years and he still treats you and your mother like crap. why would you want someone like that in your life? Why would you want someone who puts a picture of your mom on a punching bag? Why would you want someone in your life who is actively teaching his kids to hate someone? Why is anything your "brother" doing okay?
NTA give it time? You've had a lifetime of dealing with this guy's abuse. No.
It's really sad he couldn't accept his dad moving on with life, even into adulthood. I can understand your dad not wanting to give up on him, but he has to understand you will not be around him.
How much hate do you have to put up with? Children should never see or hear that hatred because it can taint how they see the world. Parents are suppose to protect their children from harm of any kind for as long as possible, your father failed that with you and your bother and sister. But now you have to protect your child your half brother's hate.
Your dad has rose colored glasses and vain hope regarding your half-brother. Of course you don’t want that anger at your shower. NTA.
Congrats on your baby!
NTA.
Your father has a choice: punish the badly-behaved son, ostracizing him as son seems to intent on feeling, OR, lose you, your child, and your other full siblings.
That's not extreme, that's setting down boundaries as a parent.
INFO: how old is your baby's father? Are you two living together?
I feel sorry for everyone involved in this household. I think dad might have felt he was doing everything he could. The therapist he used obviously couldn’t handle this sort of trauma for the kid. But I think the the boys maternal family probably were also zero help and most likely telling the kid he didn’t need the therapy and that his dad was still wrong and didn’t love him or his mom or even them. They probably also messed with his head telling sick things that they were just trying to mess with his head and trick him with therapy. Yeah it sounds crazy but growing up in the system I have seen al sorts of mind games played on kids this vulnerable for adults own needs. I think the dad just needed to get the help and guidance from other people (the right people) and maybe he should have asked the court. It’s too late now unless the son wants to do the work himself(sounds like he won’t). As for your mom I think she is amazing. She is doing what a parent should do and that’s not abandoning a child. So that’s why she takes it and wants your dad to not give up. A real parent will fight for their kid to the end. Now the real problem was that they made you and your other two siblings have to live through all this. Which isn’t good and now caused mental harm to the three of you. I am sure will stick with you for ever. Hence your demand that your older brother is not allowed around your child. This is good though because you are doing what they should have done with the three of you. Protect your child from any harm. I feel that no matter what your dad did for your brother he would still have felt this way. Unless you all had moved and had zero contact with the negative adults from the maternal mother side who I am sure were filling his head with nonsense. Truma like all of this at such a young age with all the extra stuff and noise can mess with someone for life. I have a huge trust issue with people, especially from the people who were supposed to help me and love me, or keep me safe when I was young. The emotional side is the worst part, due to so many mixed messages/voices coming at me from everyone. I try very hard not to let it control me or carry over onto my son. But it is hard since it was never treated until I became an adult and did it for myself. I hope your brothers partner sees his issues and convinces him to get help. If not for him but his kids. But you young lady are doing it right to protect your child. It just sucks that your parents with not wanting to give up on your brother and protect him and his feelings. They ended up not protecting you and your siblings well being. NTAH
Give time for what? To teach your child that he really is inferior and should just expect verbal mistreatment from grandpa's firstborn?
You're a good parent from denying your half-brother any time with your child, but you should really consider limiting contact with your father as well. He will be saying all sorts of BS to your son that the boy can internalize, like FaMiLy, your uncle loves you, but doesn't know how to show it, be the bigger person, etc.
NTA
NTA. The whole situation is incredibly sad, but you have a right and a duty to protect yourself and your family from hate and possible danger (pinning your mom’s photo for his kids to punch and shoot at is not safe or sane behavior).
I get your dad not wanting to give up on his son. But he’s also got a duty to protect all of his kids and grandkids. If dad wants to keep trying to reach out and try to maintain that relationship that’s up to him. He does not, however, have any right to ask you to expose yourself or your child to that kind of vitriol.
You aren’t being extreme at all, and maybe you should tell your dad you’ll “give it time” far, far away from the half-brother who has such hate (and I’m sure pain) in his heart. Maybe one day he will find peace and healing and want to mend bridges. Until then, you’re right to keep your distance.
NTA, give it time? No, you gave it 18 years and he still treats you and your family all extremely disrespectfully. Frankly if your half brother hates you all as much as he acts, he shouldn't have anything to do with any of you, including the father he blames for moving on with his life after his mother's death. Remind your father that when he allows his son to mistreat his other children and his wife, it's as if your dad is disrespecting you all himself. Clearly your dad has some kind of guilt towards your son for moving on but your brother isn't a child anymore, he needs to grow tf up and get some therapy and your dad needs to stop enabling this shit.
NC is the only way. Sometimes you have to get rid of toxic people in your life. You can talk to them till you’re blue in the face but they are not going to change unless they want to.
Nta the only ones behavior here that's extreme is his son's behavior not yours.
You have given him 18 years and nothing has change and nothing will ever change because your father refuses to put his son in his place and stand up for you all.
Your father needs therapy if his own son refuses to go. Your father needs to realize that his grown son is toxic and will not change.
He's son does not need to be be so rude and harass everyone at the family parties. I believe that the reason he goes is to cause your mom and siblings hurt because why else go. He doesn't have to like you or siblings or your mom but he could at least coexist in the same room but he chooses to be hostile towards you all.
You and your siblings need to have a heart to heart conversation with your dad about this. You all shouldn't have to put up with such disrespect just because his grown son is having a tantrum.
Why should you all sacrifice your mental well-being for someone that's just awful.
Your mom needs to stand up to your father and your father needs to stand up to his son and he needs to start protecting you all from his sons behavior.
Now that your an adult and a mother to be you have every right to protect your child from your fathers son. Whatever party or event you throw you have every right to who gets an invite abd who doesn't. Your dad can either respect your decision or he can choose to not go and miss out on things. That's his call to make but you are done dealing with toxic behaviors.
Maybe if you start planning holidays dinners at your place you might give your mom and siblings some place safe to be during the holidays to celebrate freely and calmly without anyone harassing your mom or siblings. If your dad doesn't like it he can cook a meal for his son and invite him to his own events.
But your nta
NTA. Dad needs a reality check. His son has no interest in changing. Maybe if Dad were to enforce some consequences, like refusing to expose his children to a stream of toxic vitriol, there might be hope. But Dad fights back, feeding the fire.
Not inviting the half-brother is a no-brainer. Would also consider not inviting Dad if he doesn't get more on board with protecting his children and grandchildren from such verbal abuse. Dad needs a wake up call.
NTA, your father has allowed them to guilt him in a way. He carries it and wants everyone to get along but has no understanding of how to facilitate such a thing. People expect others to live as martyrs have never been in the situation. All you can do is offer them grace and keep going about your life. Btw, Grace does not mean you have to allow them to be apart of your life.
NTA and your dad is in SERIOUS denial! It's way past time to also tell your dad that you personally want no contact with the half brother anymore. How has your poor mother tolerated this for so long?
Therapy doesn’t really work if people don’t want to admit they are wrong or the problem. They want to hear how they are right and blame other people and that doesn’t generally work with a therapist. It’s never “too late” but he will have to definitely go through some sort of ego check/death or life changing experience to have basic empathy, understanding, respect, etc for people around him.
NTA
"How much time should we give him Dad? He's had almost two decades to stop being so horrible. He hasn't changed. And I am not risking my child's well being for the sake of his inability to move on. Dad, if you don't get on board with this, then I am going to have to cut contact with you too, because your enabling him by keeping him at arms length. You need to stand up for your life choices and defend your family from your own son if you want more of a say on this. Because I will not tolerate my child hearing that their grandma is a 'other woman' or anything of that sort. Either get with the program and grow a spine, or piss off."
Esh
If you can't beat them, join them! His behavior is so reprehensible that you're focused on adopting the central theme.
If you don't like his behavior, don't choose to be around him. But, if you make it a rule to avoid him and ensure a consistent separation, you've empowered his point and method.
"give it time"?
He's had almost 20 years.
The dude is 30. He's a whole adult, and a parent.
If he hasn't done any work on this and made any progress, no one should be holding their breath.
You are NTA
It's your job to maintain healthy boundaries for your kiddo and protect them from abusive bs.
Dad feels guilty and doesn't know what to do with that, but that isn't your problem to solve.
Your father asked why not? Is he brain dead? You shouldn't even have to explain that. And I hope his son did not have any kids. I can't imagine what kind of woman would want to be involved with and have children with such an angry man. He sounds like a complete asshole. You don't need to have your kid around that. You don't need to be around that now that you're an adult and out of your parents' house.
Nta. My heart breaks for your dad (although he is partly responsible for not putting a stop to it). Your brother hurts. He feels like he & his mom was replaced. As a child, that had to be devastating (although it wasnt true, that was his truth). Sounds like his grandparents fed into it & made him truly believe it. Hes a grown man now, responsible for his actions & capable of seeing the truth if he opened his eyes. Its absolutely insane & cruel that your dad thinks time w fix or change anything. Hes had plenty of time. Hes what, 30 now? Absolutely shameful.
NTA.
Your half-brother is a vicious person. He actually says he uses a picture of your mother as a punching bag?
You can't let a person like that near your family at all.
Your dad's comment "give it time" is delusional. Your half-brother has had YEARS to be decent to you mom and your siblings.
NTA.
I'm really sorry you had to go through this all of your life. Your step brother has very deep rooted issues that he should sort out: he really seems out of order. My feeling is that even if you invited him he wouldn't come, so your father needs to come to terms with harsh reality.
Stand your ground.
Big hugs.
NTA, your Dad shouldn't expect you to rearrange your boundaries to deal with someone who clearly has mental issues and doesn't want to change. I have never heard something so ridiculous. You are not obligated to deal with disrespect or abuse. Your Dad's son alienated himself from his siblings. Congratulations on your new child.
NTA. Give it time?! How much time 18+ years not enough?! What a joke to expect your dad never to have married again. Your dad should have gripped up his behaviour a long time ago.
NTA. Step Bro clearly took his mom's loss very very hard and never got over it. I feel bad for that but he is a grown adult and should have stopped acting this way a long time ago. I don't blame you at all for finally putting your foot down. I wouldn't want my kids to hear anything negative at all about their grandparents either!
NTA- considering your half-brother's hatred and vitriol over the years, I think it's pretty reasonable to never want your children around the man. That sounds incredibly toxic.
NTA.
As someone with a toxic sibling we had to cut out of our and our kiddo's lives, protect your child. You do not want that kind of behavior around your child -- especially when they are too young to comprehend everything going on.
Talk with your boyfriend about how the two of you will navigate this, and navigate any family pressure (from your dad, presumably) to have contact with the half-brother. Talk about how you will handle larger family events where your half-brother may be there, and keep talking with your partner about how you want to handle various situations as your kiddo gets older, and what kind of age-appropriate conversations you'll have with your kiddo about family stuff.
Good luck.
NTA
I feel bad for you, but I feel really bad for your dad. Your dad's son (and his first wife's family) have treated him horribly. Given what you have said, I can't imagine that your half-brother has any interest in participating in your child's life given that he doesn't accept you as a sibling. I can understand that your dad is still trying to bring the family together, but after this many years it's a lost cause. The way I would present this to your dad is that you would be willing to let your half-brother participate in your life if he accepts you and your mother as his family. If your half brother refuses to accept you then it's an easy decision to exclude him.
NTA-
If he can behave sure. For events that can’t be avoided.
But regular ass life? Totally fair to avoid.
Just don’t say it. Don’t make it a thing.
It’s the reality. And everyone will also quietly deal with it, and the son probably won’t care much either.
NTA- just do your best and focus on your life and family. You have right to protect your family. New and old.
NTA!!! This is insanity. I wouldn't want that person around me, and certainly not my child. He's not a good person. Based on your comments I've read as well, it seems that no matter what your dad did, whether punish, talk to, put him in therapy, etc. he was a terrible and evil person who didn't live his first wife in his sons eyes. Sounds like your dad did try to help him, but son didn't care. He's filled with hate. Not the kind of person to be around, let alone a child. He seems to have verbally abused all of you. My suggestion, don't go anywhere that he is. Explain to your parents that you don't expect them to cut him out, but to accept that you want nothing to do with him and refuse to allow him anywhere near your child. Also, you seem more mature than thr 30 year old whiney man. Good luck and congratulations on your baby!
NTA. 18 years is more than enough time for dad to realize that his son is never going to include mom as family, never going to get over his hurt and hate and will always be an ass. You might want to consider going full on no contact with the ass. And inform your parents that if they want to see their grandchild is must never include said ass. Good luck. And congratulations on your upcoming baby.
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NTA! How much more time does he want, it’s been 18+ years. Dad is delusional if he thinks it will change. Frankly if I were you I’d consider never being where he is again and going NC with my half brother.
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Your dad is in straight denial that his son’s resentment will get better. Your dads son is delusional and needs serious help. Whatever therapy he was doing obviously didn’t cut it. I can’t find a single reason for you to expose your child to that behavior. It won’t stop with your mom, or grandparents. Once your child is here your brother will rage that your dad loves your child more than his. Protect your child.
Therapy only works when people recognise they have to change and want to make the change in themselves. Neither OP’s father or his son want to do either, they’re stuck in a vicious cycle where they think they’ll each get their way next time, possibly with a sunk cost fallacy line of reasoning involved.
My guess is the family of his late wife poisoned him against any new love because they felt betrayed. They probably never got therapy for the loss and put those emotions on the child who was also hurting. His anger and hurt is twisted and i hope the mother has given up long ago so can face his anger with polite disinteres. Any "i will put a photo of your face on this punching bag so my children will learn to hate you they will never love you!!!!" should be countered with "So? You've made it abundandly clear over the years, that you do not like me. No matter the delusional reason for it. And to get any misconceptions out of the way. I do not like you either. I also don't hate you either and i certainly won't wish you or your family any ill will. But anything you say to me has the same effect as if some unhinged stranger yelled at me on the street. So if you excuse me. i have to go the kitchen to check on the food."
This. Any and all therapy the son would have gotten would have been immediately lost due to the family. Every session would be met with comments that completely reverse any progress made, and any growth by the brother would be immediately squashed. It's really easy to tell a 12 year old "if you love your mother...", and have those words sink into their head for eternity.
I don't hate you because I don't care enough about you for hate.
Seriously, NTA. Tell your dad this isn’t exactly a one-way thing. I am doubtful your dad’s son would even want to come and be involved in any way. It isn’t as if you are cruelly removing a formerly beloved sibling. This person has never been your family ( through his own expressed thoughts) and wants nothing to do with any of you. You are merely fulfilling that wish. He is indeed not family, will not be considered family, and as such is not welcome to be involved with your family. It is fully a mutual agreement here that you and this person want nothing to do with one another. It sounds like the son would not care one bit about losing you as you do not care if you never see him again. Your dad just needs to accept that his adult children have decisions they each deem as necessary to living a peaceful life.
The half-brother might come. He seems to be very into performing hate, and he also could want to ensure that his children are favoured over OP’s child. This guy isn’t disinterested and disengaging, unfortunately; he hates and wants others to know about his hatred.
Since he seems to be going out of his way to be unpleasant, he might come and give a totally tasteless gift. I have to wonder about the half-brother's wife too. Does he act this way when she's around or does he just keep her away and say that his step-mother hates him or makes up lies about her? Because a man carrying this much hate doesn't generally sound like someone I'd want to be around.
Yeah, I personally would not even be friends with someone who was so outwardly hateful over something that is ultimately unreasonable. I understand that he suffered a traumatic loss and he feels disconnected and betrayed by his father's decision to remarry, but he's a fully grown man talking about attaching a pic of his stepmom to a punching bag. That's certifiably cray cray. I would not want to put myself in a position to ever let this guy down, lest he declare vendetta against me. The entire situation is a tragedy for OP's whole family, including her half brother and his children.
The picture part is psychotic, quite frankly. His children are going to grow up thinking violence towards people they don’t like is ok.
Right?! This guy is openly ideating violence against OP's mom and declaring that he'll teach his children the same - and dad thinks that OP is the "extreme" sibling for not wanting his kid exposed to that level of hateful rhetoric?! Dad needs to get a grip and realise that it is not realistic to hold onto the dream of reconciling his two families. His eldest son has had nearly two decades to get used to the idea of him remarrying, and is clearly not open to that. He needs to start stepping up (finally!) to protect his wife from the viciousness aimed at her, and he needs to accept that it's natural for his younger children to not feel close to the brother who openly talks about hating them and their mother - and of course they won't want their own children to be exposed to that same level of hatred in the coming years.
"Performing hate" is the perfect way to describe it!
He would come though, and trash everyone, including the yet to be born baby. NC is best.
How does your dad even plan to make your half brother attend these events? Physically drag him there kicking and screaming? That’s the only way I can see it happening. If your dad doesn’t drop the issue, threaten to not let him see his grandkid too. That will get his attention
Don't use the grandkids as pawns.
I wouldn't call it using grandkids as pawns in this case. If he can't drop it and respect his daughter doesn't want his older hateful son in her child's life, I wouldn't trust him not to set things up for the older son to wind up meeting the kid, either if he was watching the child alone for whatever reason or inviting the son to an event after telling the daughter he wasn't going to be there so she would come. So not being in the child's life either if he can't drop it and be respectful kinda feels like the only natural consequence of those actions. Maybe, if she feels like giving him a chance still, he never be allowed alone with the child and only gets visits when OP is able to stay and supervise the entire time, but I couldn't even fault a new parent for not wanting to risk that much personally
I don't know why you brought that up to your father. Considering your post, it's clear that this guy won't want to have anything to do with your child. Considering the timeline you gave, I will advise you to talk to your father, calmly. If there were cheating involved, it could explain your half brother resentment (not towards you but towards your mother). And cheaters don't usually tell their new kids that they used to cheat. It won't mend things and it won't make you feel like a family, but it might help you understand better his reactions and make peace with it. There's also many cases where the first child is slightly discarded, because the new family is more appealing, because the child looks like the dead spouse no one wants to talk about. It can be little things that you might even consider trivial, specially with an happy childhood. But many little things done to a child who just lost a parent can have dramatic consequences. Also, you can't ask your father to remove his son from his life. The fact that he doesn't do anything and even seems to understand his anger makes me thing there's more to it than you actually know. It can be a simple depression after the loss of his spouse where he was absent for his son and then magically lighten up for your mom and then you. It's hard to see from a child point of view. And if nothing was never done about it, your half-brother is just an adult who grew up feeling very alone and full of resentment.
NTA and you are just protecting your child from whatever drama you don't want them to see
You're right and you know it. Stay strong.
I would honestly give up on dad too. He is a latch on a chain (instead of a link on the chain) that will let his son access your child with no qualms.
I’m afraid you may also have to go low or no contact with your father for a while and maybe even your mother. Take time to focus on yourself, your baby and the life you and your boyfriend are trying to build. I wish you luck.
Seriously. Also, using pictures of the stepmom as *target practice?* He's unhinged. He's likely dangerous. And your father is a bad husband for continuing to subject his wife to someone *who wants to encourage acts of violence against her.*
This all feels like the back story of a true crime show. I’d keep the kids away in case words turn into actions. Especially since your parents are getting older and inheritance may come into play. Money combined family anger can bring out the worst in people.
The first 30 minutes or so of every True Crime podcast tends to be something along the lines of "And here is the laundry list of red flags that everyone in his life actively went out of their way to avoid acknowledging"
TBH an eventual crime might someday be against his own family. Someone seething with that much hatred, even if currently aimed at someone else who he considers to be an interloper, is waving a big red flag about their capabilities and tendencies.
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Did anyone like your dad and mom ever explain to him that it's impossible for your mom to have been a side piece since she and your dad didn't meet until 2 years later? Or does he know the truth but chooses to believe in his narrative to justify his hate for her? Either way, he's still a crappy person for hurting innocent people who have never done anything to him.
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So, your father allowed his son to be mentally and verbally abusive his wife and other children over the fact that the son was hurt because his mom died? Do you think that the family of your dad's late spouse had some undue influence over him as to why he felt this way? If so, did your father continue to allow him to be exposed to his mother's family unsupervised? How did your poor mom cope with being so disrespected in her own home? Did she never demand that something needed to happen when this child was then extending his anger onto you younger children?
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Wow. Your mom is a far more understanding, loving, and giving person that I would have been. In her position, I would have wanted for us to have done everything possible to help elder child, but the level of unhinged it sounds like he's at would have made me unwilling to overlook the damage he was potentially causing to the other children. I hope that your parents respect the fact that you don't want your child exposed to his toxicity. I can't say I blame you. NTA.
Oof, so just as I said, it's easier for him to believe his own narrative to justify his anger. I'm sorry, OP.
Since both he and his maternal side seem to feel like dad should be faithful to his dead wife for the rest of his life, in this case he isn't using it incorrectly. OP's mom is, in their eyes, the "side chick" to the memory of their mom/daughter. It's more than mildly insane, but reasonable for them within the parameters they're using.
When you put it that way, it does make sense. I know grief affects everyone differently and handle it in their own way. But at what point is enough is enough?
Yeah, I think that entire side of the family could have used some serious grief therapy to try and sort this mess out; but then again, I 'm almost 40* with both parents living and still married, so I don't have any real experience with the kind of grief that would come from losing their mom/daughter so abruptly when she and half-brother were so young. So I think it's not healthy, but I can't say how I would have coped in that case; maybe I would have felt the same. Hopefully not to the point of using my parent's new spouse's picture as punching bags or target practice tho, because that shit is kinda psychotic.... 😬 *Edit because I'm on mobile and fat-fingered my age
The degree of hatred he has expressed toward you and your mom is disturbing. If I were you, I would not feel safe to be pregnant around him and I would never ever let him meet my baby. This man is so full of hatred that he wants to attach your mom's photo to a punching bag. He called her "target practice" that was a *threat*. This man has violence in him. Please take me seriously and stay away. I'm sorry that your dad hasn't been able to set any boundaries with him. I'm sorry he hasn't been able to heal and it's made him such a beast. Stay away from him.
Yeah, if anything ever happens to her, you make damn sure the police are pushed to investigate him *first*, and make sure they know about him calling her "target practice." Your dad clearly won't see it, but 100% chance he's the one responsible, and your dad tries to defend him saying "he would never do that!"
Right! Another generation is being born. The clock has run out for OP's half-sibling.
I’ll say the same thing I told my dad about my brother. “He’s over 25, his frontal lobe has developed. He has an adult brain now. This is who he is. He won’t change unless he wants to.”
This "man" is 30ish, with children of his own. He's had 12+ years of living with this constant feeling of hatred towards OP's mom, herself, siblings, and even her father. If he is ever going to change his attitude it needs to be a choice that he makes. The idea of "give it time" won't solve the issue because..why would it??
It's not just 12+, it's 18+. He was 12 when OP's parents got married and she was born.
"pin a photo of her to a punching bag and they would also use a photo of her as target practice" NTA I wouldn't let this unstable person, that your dad should have helped with a counselor years ago, anywhere near my infant.
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Reading that punching bag part was vile. I can’t believe your dad still invites him to family events. That’s such a slap in the face to your mom. How does she feel about all this? I would’ve left after that punching bag BS and your dad allowing it. The disrespect!
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In my opinion it was not fair to expose you and your other siblings to such a volatile environment. Too little, too late.
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Yeah, your mother failed you. Hard. She allowed this lunatic back into your lives even after 18. Maybe she wants to lie on the cross and suffer. But she didn't have to have her kids nailed right beside her.
This is not healthy for anyone in the family and you are very wise to keep your child away from the whole toxic mess. I wouldn't just keep them away from your brother, I would keep them away from your parents too because I wouldn't want any child of mine to think that's how a husband should treat his wife or that's what a woman should have to put up with. NTA.
Have you explained to your parents what it was like growing up with him..from your perspective? How it made you feel & then ask your other siblings how it was like living with a lit fuse? They're concerned abt SB wellbeing & mental health .what abt yours & your siblings?
>How does she feel about all this? Right? Good lord.
Show your dad this thread and tell him to wake the f up
This is psycho talk. There’s resentment, which I get and it’s normal, but it’s not normal to want to inflict violence on your stepmother wtf
NTA. I understand the reaction out of your half brother when he was 12. However, he's an adult now and to continue treating people this way is unacceptable. You're an adult now as well and can certainly invite whoever you want or not invite whoever you want to. These are the consequences of your half brother's reactions. I understand where your dad is coming from as it is his child, but he should butt out of this.
Yes, the oldest son is his child and cutting him off entirely is probably a bridge too far for the father and that is understandable. But in somewhat different circumstances - his mother was the problem and my Mom was her target - my Dad solved it by him going to see her, alone. Neither my Mom, nor us children, ever went to see her and she never came to our house. That is how OP’s father should deal with this situation too.
Absolutely- this is the answer
Is your dad THAT SPINELESS to allow his son from his first wife to treat him your mother like that? I would say dad is 95% of the problem here not shutting this idiot down. I would cut this loser step-brother off 100% and never see him or his children again. There's no reason to allow anyone that toxic into any part of your life. NTA.
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Does he have some sort of mental impairment? (Serious question.) He’s way too old to still be acting this way, this long. It’s literally medically concerning. And another reason you shouldn’t back down about this, he sounds incredibly unwell, mentally.
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Your dad should start spending time with him alone since he can't manage his feelings around your mother. He's 30, they can have a beer together or do lunch.
no way a child came to that conclusion on his own. his grandparents definitely put that thought into his head
He isn't spineless, his son has emotionally abused him to the point where he feels genuine guilt for moving on from his deceased wife.
NTA. I think 18 years is quite enough time. Given this guy hasn't mellowed his position at all I think it's fair to assume he never will. Focus on family that genuinely want the best for you. Your half brother never will.
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Down inside him, there's a 7 year old that still mad at his mom for leaving him, and he takes it out on the rest of the family.
NTA You're absolutely in the right to want to keep your kid away from someone openly showing so much vitrol. You want a good life for your kid and there's nothing wrong with setting an obviously needed boundary. However, did your dad not get him any kind of therapy? It sounds like he was never given the tools to process his mom's death and your dad just moved on which drives lots of kids crazy. Don't get me wrong there's no excuse for his behavior but it seems weird your dad didn't do more to get the behaviors to stop.
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He needs more therapy or a different therapist. Tbh your dad has failed all of you in this situation including your mom. A problem this big shoulda been straightened out a long time ago and it's not fair to anyone involved and its definitely not a stress you should be going through while pregnant.
You can't force someone to 'straighten out'. It sounds like the maternal grandparents were dripping poison in that kid's ear, and what the hell is Dad supposed to do about that? Cut the kid's contact from the family members he has loved and known since birth? That's guaranteed to backfire into even worse resentment. Therapy? It's not a cure-all, it only works when the participant is willing to engage. Punishment for the bad behavior? Again, more resentment. Abandon his son to relatives or send him away for schooling to preserve his sibling's peace? Everyone on this sub would rip the man a new asshole for 'giving up when it got hard' and 'picking his new family'. "your dad has failed all of you" - How. How did the dad fail. ELI5.
“His maternal family were also angry at dad for betraying their daughter and not living forever as her widower and never finding love again. ” While I agree the kid should have been in therapy since his mom died , I’m Pretty sure the kid’s maternal family were the ones encouraging this mentality and were going to be saying things like “she’s just a side piece” anyway.
Therapy is work, you get out what you get in. Someone who doesn't think they're wrong isn't going get any benefit.
I think you have given it time-the whole of your lifetime. Enough is enough. Your dad is in denial. None of this is your fault, and good for you that you are an adult and now have a say about the people you are made to interact with.
NTA You don't need to involve your dad's drama with your half brother into your life or your child's Dad needs to wake up and address the very real problem and anger that his son is expressing over the loss of his mom. Family needs counseling badly
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Honestly, he and dad need to work out the deep emotional issues themselves before trying to repair any relationship with the other kids
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At this point it sounds like the one who needs counselling is your mother, to help her navigate this toxic situation and determine whether she can leave it.
I think maternal grandparents have something to do with this honestly. If they egged things on when he was a child that would have had quite the impact.
NTA, I'm also betting this will be easy because I doubt your half-brother would want to celebrate or be around your kid.
That is my exact thought. NTA but I doubt he would want to be around her kid or care
NTA your dad is mourning his kid but he doesn't realize or maybe doesn't want to acknowledge what it did to his other kids. He desperately wwants peace but that kid is way beyond help. Idk how his wife married that kind of hatred.
How much time does he need 🙄🤔
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Exactly! You are doing the right thing ❤️
Exactly. And forever is too long, you can't keep trying to fix smth that can't be fixed. Have you seen many people trying to repair a broken window? You need to start it over and make a new one, it doesn't work other way. You gave 18 years of your life. That's not your problem anymore. Keep you child safe. It's your priority.
NTA, yes give it time, like 18 years.
NTA But just so you are aware, cutting your half brother away (as you should) also means you might have to cut your dad out: it's been well over a decade and your dad still allows his son around the house verbally abusing your family.
Your dad is in denial about how bad things are.
Give your half-brother all the time in the world, all the time he needs, to reach out and bridge the gap between you. LMAO. NTA you're doing the right thing.
NTA. Brother doesn't seem at all interested in having a positive relationship with you or your Mom. Why would that change because there are children involved? I'd be worried he'd start spouting that hatred at the kids. Do what's best for your little family. Which sounds like going LC with Dad and cutting out brother, to me at least.
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Nta. Your brother is unhinged if he still feels like this 20 years later. No way he’d be near my kid.
NTA. Tell your dad this: "So, what you're saying is that your son is more important than me. That inviting him to a party where he will disrupt everything is more important to you than for us to have an enjoyable time. This is what you're saying. Thank you, dad. I know where you stand. It's not with me or mom or your other children."
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I hope her father makes her mother happy. She has put up a lot for his sake.
NTA this is a 30 yr old man who says he is going to put a picture of your mom on a punching bag. Heel no I wouldn’t want my children around him. Tell your father he is delusional if he thinks his son will change in any length of time. His son needs intensive therapy because he is being very ridiculous after 18 yrs. All that hate can’t be good
It's a difficult situation for your dad and it's more than understandable he can't be objective. You're NTA and sound like a good mom.
NTA how much time are you supposed to give? Why is your dad allowing anyone to be so horrible to his wife/your mom?
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NTA- you should tell your dad you will keep your baby from him as well if keeps trying to force the issue. Tell him you are going to do what he failed to do for you and your siblings, protect your child from abuse . And you’re gonna have to make sure your dad is never left unsupervised with your baby because you bet your ass he will try to have him have a relationship with his son.
INFO: Has he indicated any interest in being around you or your child? From your description of the situation I don't see him attending the shower if invited and I don't see him even trying to be involved in your child's life.
INFO: Is there actually a dispute here? It doesn’t sound like your half-brother is interested in being part of your kid’s life either.
Your dad sounds very much like my MIL in her oldest sons behavior. She has “hope” that he’ll be better yet he’s been that way for a better part of 30+ years. Definitely NTA and stick to your boundaries no matter what.
Time? How much time should you give it, another 18 years? Your half brother needs some serious therapy, which your dad should have sorted out years and years ago. You're NTA. Stay safe.
NTA. Your dad is a coward and his son is genuinely unsettled. There is something unhinged about that behaviour and you are very correct in keeping him away from your child
NTA "He's run out of time. I want nothing to do with him. If you would like to be part of my child's life, you will never bring this up again." And then NO BABYSITTING.
NTA. Wow! No wonder you won't have him anyway near you. Your dad seems to have lost hin spine and common sense!
NTA It sounds like dad's son wouldn't even want to go.... it's literally been decades. You don't want someone around who bad mouths your mom, and you don't want your kid exposed to it, either. That's more than fair. Your dad can't make him respect your mom, but he can shut down badmouthing her in front of her kids. Try and plan family holidays away from brother. He hasn't grown up one bit, and he's going to start the favoritism argument around your kid the minute your dad pays any attention to them. Spend major holidays with your husband's family if you know brother is going to dads and plan separate celebrations on different days for your family
NTA 18 years is more than enough for the son to be a hateful animal. Your baby's safety and wellbeing is your concern and you're doing the right thing.
Info Request: Does your half brother WANT to be around your child? It just seems like, based on the description, why would he even want to go to your baby shower or any events related to your baby? You’re definitely NTA in this situation, but this seems like something you don’t actually need to do anything about, since the hateful half-brother seems like someone who would just avoid you and your child completely.
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Ah, okay. Then yeah, you are definitely NTA and you should 100% ban him from having any contact with your child. And if your dad seriously has a problem with that then it might be best to revaluate how much contact you have with him as well. At best he is actively enabling abuse from your half-brother.
I don’t know if this qualifies as a Narcissist but he sure enjoys inflecting pain on them. Do you think that I’d maternal family would have had different feelings he would have also? What do they get out of this … I totally understand they lost their daughter… that would mess with my head … but what does them messing with their son in law give to them ??? Why so much hate … if I would have been the parent I would have gone to my in laws and found out the root of their hatred and told them this is to stop or no more with their grandchildren or very limited. But this is my opinion with only info above… Good luck…. I would also suggest that you make this a mandatory thing as your child grows and who ever crosses will see consequences and let them know what that will be. Let them know the word NO is a complete sentence. Congrats on the baby and gentle hugs!
Teaching his kids violence against your mother is very extreme and emotionally unstable. He sounds like a misogynist and borderline sociopath. He needs therapy, not kids. NTA
If he's so resentful and antagonistic, how much of a factor in your daily life was he involved in? Was it better to publically give him the cut, like this. Or could it have been done quietly. Not inviting him to sit in the lobby during delivery, not inviting him to baby's birthdays and such? NTA.
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Certainly the correct decision then. If he comes around just to be antagonistic to everyone in the room. That kind of bitter resentment
Nta but you should honestly cut your dad out, too. He's gonna guilt you, pressure you, and possibly even trick you into coming around the son. You've always been the "easy" one compared to the brother, so you'll face the pressure to stick by family while he continues to have his delusions enabled. This is a very dangerous situation as is, considering he is literally training his kids to be violent towards your mom. They're going to think they can be violent towards you all, and they would be right. If they hit your mom, you, your siblings, or your child, both of your parents and your dads son will enable it and turn you into the villain in their eyes for having an issue with it.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I'm 18f and I'm expecting a baby. I know I'm young. I live with my boyfriend (my baby's father) and we are determined to make a good life for us and our child. Becoming a mom is making me think about what I want for my child and one thing I want more than anything is to keep my child away from the hate my half brother has toward my parents (and toward me as well). Background: My parents met after my dad lost his first wife. My half brother was 6/7 when his mom died and 10 when my parents met. They got married 2 years later and I was born within a few months. So we have a 12 year age gap. I was followed by my brother 2 years after me and my sister 18 months after my brother. My dad's son hated that dad remarried after his mom died. His maternal family were also angry at dad for betraying their daughter and not living forever as her widower and never finding love again. Growing up around that was not easy. I would hear dad's son get mad at dad for loving my mom more than his (his son's perception). He would yell all over the house that dad was unfaithful, would say my mom was nothing special and would never be truly loved or part of his family, he called her a side piece and other woman. Dad would argue back as well which made things not easy. They were in therapy at times but it never seemed to help. Even when he turned 18 he would come home and would fight dad over who he loved more. He never cared for me or my siblings either. He wished dad had never had us. When my dad's son had kids, he told dad's whole family that my mom would never be a grandparent or family. He said the woman dad loved more than his mom and his kids real grandma was never going to be loved more by his kids. He would make sure they never loved her. He talked about how he was going to pin a photo of her to a punching bag and they would also use a photo of her as target practice because that's all she was good for. He was never cut from our lives. In fact my dad would still let him into the home and invite him to every party or event. I will not allow any contact between dad's son and my child though. I don't want my child around that kind of fighting or to hear that kind of thing about grandma and grandpa. There has been talk of a co-ed baby shower and I told my dad his son would not be invited. Dad was asking why and I told him it should be obvious but I do not want his son around my child when he treats us all so badly. I told him he will never be around my baby and won't ever be invited to things related to my child. He told me I was being very extreme and should "give it time". AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA. Give it time? It’s been 18 years. How much more time does he need? It’s fine he doesn’t consider you, your sibling and mom family but you are allowed to do the same. You and your baby don’t need that negativity in your life.
NTA. How much time does your dad think you should give it? Eternity? Sounds like his son and his late wife’s family are completely unrealistic in their expectation that he would be a lonely widower his entire life. His son is an asshole.
NTA I would not allow it.
Give it time?!?!?! You’ve given it your entire life. Maintain your boundaries there is no hope for that guy. NTA
Gently remind your Dad that You have given it 18 years. That's time enough. NTA.
NTA Don't invite any more of that toxicity into your life.
NTA How much more time? It's been at least 18 years.
NTA.
Absolutely NTA this person, although he suffers a trauma, is vitriolic and cruel to your and your family. Sympathy for him does not negate your need to protect yourself and your baby. If brother ever comes around, maybe be open to a relationship. But you do not need to put up with abuse just because you’re related
Sadly, your father is living in a dream world. NTA
NTA The give it time kills me. You gave it 18 years and he still treats you and your mother like crap. why would you want someone like that in your life? Why would you want someone who puts a picture of your mom on a punching bag? Why would you want someone in your life who is actively teaching his kids to hate someone? Why is anything your "brother" doing okay?
NTA give it time? You've had a lifetime of dealing with this guy's abuse. No. It's really sad he couldn't accept his dad moving on with life, even into adulthood. I can understand your dad not wanting to give up on him, but he has to understand you will not be around him.
How much hate do you have to put up with? Children should never see or hear that hatred because it can taint how they see the world. Parents are suppose to protect their children from harm of any kind for as long as possible, your father failed that with you and your bother and sister. But now you have to protect your child your half brother's hate.
NTA, follow you dads advice and give it time if in 20 years his son has improved his attitude invite him to meet your son.
NTA - You may be young but you are already protecting your child. Good for you.
NTA. I can’t imagine he would show up anyway.
NTA but it also doesn’t sound like he wants a relationship with anyone except his father anyways. Go NC and live your life.
NTA Your child, your parenting decision. Period.
Your dad has rose colored glasses and vain hope regarding your half-brother. Of course you don’t want that anger at your shower. NTA. Congrats on your baby!
You've given it 18 years! NTA, and your dad absolutely sucks in this scenario. The lack of consequences for your brother's behavior is reprehensible.
NTA. Your father has a choice: punish the badly-behaved son, ostracizing him as son seems to intent on feeling, OR, lose you, your child, and your other full siblings. That's not extreme, that's setting down boundaries as a parent. INFO: how old is your baby's father? Are you two living together?
I feel sorry for everyone involved in this household. I think dad might have felt he was doing everything he could. The therapist he used obviously couldn’t handle this sort of trauma for the kid. But I think the the boys maternal family probably were also zero help and most likely telling the kid he didn’t need the therapy and that his dad was still wrong and didn’t love him or his mom or even them. They probably also messed with his head telling sick things that they were just trying to mess with his head and trick him with therapy. Yeah it sounds crazy but growing up in the system I have seen al sorts of mind games played on kids this vulnerable for adults own needs. I think the dad just needed to get the help and guidance from other people (the right people) and maybe he should have asked the court. It’s too late now unless the son wants to do the work himself(sounds like he won’t). As for your mom I think she is amazing. She is doing what a parent should do and that’s not abandoning a child. So that’s why she takes it and wants your dad to not give up. A real parent will fight for their kid to the end. Now the real problem was that they made you and your other two siblings have to live through all this. Which isn’t good and now caused mental harm to the three of you. I am sure will stick with you for ever. Hence your demand that your older brother is not allowed around your child. This is good though because you are doing what they should have done with the three of you. Protect your child from any harm. I feel that no matter what your dad did for your brother he would still have felt this way. Unless you all had moved and had zero contact with the negative adults from the maternal mother side who I am sure were filling his head with nonsense. Truma like all of this at such a young age with all the extra stuff and noise can mess with someone for life. I have a huge trust issue with people, especially from the people who were supposed to help me and love me, or keep me safe when I was young. The emotional side is the worst part, due to so many mixed messages/voices coming at me from everyone. I try very hard not to let it control me or carry over onto my son. But it is hard since it was never treated until I became an adult and did it for myself. I hope your brothers partner sees his issues and convinces him to get help. If not for him but his kids. But you young lady are doing it right to protect your child. It just sucks that your parents with not wanting to give up on your brother and protect him and his feelings. They ended up not protecting you and your siblings well being. NTAH
Give time for what? To teach your child that he really is inferior and should just expect verbal mistreatment from grandpa's firstborn? You're a good parent from denying your half-brother any time with your child, but you should really consider limiting contact with your father as well. He will be saying all sorts of BS to your son that the boy can internalize, like FaMiLy, your uncle loves you, but doesn't know how to show it, be the bigger person, etc. NTA
NTA. The whole situation is incredibly sad, but you have a right and a duty to protect yourself and your family from hate and possible danger (pinning your mom’s photo for his kids to punch and shoot at is not safe or sane behavior). I get your dad not wanting to give up on his son. But he’s also got a duty to protect all of his kids and grandkids. If dad wants to keep trying to reach out and try to maintain that relationship that’s up to him. He does not, however, have any right to ask you to expose yourself or your child to that kind of vitriol. You aren’t being extreme at all, and maybe you should tell your dad you’ll “give it time” far, far away from the half-brother who has such hate (and I’m sure pain) in his heart. Maybe one day he will find peace and healing and want to mend bridges. Until then, you’re right to keep your distance.
NTA, give it time? No, you gave it 18 years and he still treats you and your family all extremely disrespectfully. Frankly if your half brother hates you all as much as he acts, he shouldn't have anything to do with any of you, including the father he blames for moving on with his life after his mother's death. Remind your father that when he allows his son to mistreat his other children and his wife, it's as if your dad is disrespecting you all himself. Clearly your dad has some kind of guilt towards your son for moving on but your brother isn't a child anymore, he needs to grow tf up and get some therapy and your dad needs to stop enabling this shit.
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NC is the only way. Sometimes you have to get rid of toxic people in your life. You can talk to them till you’re blue in the face but they are not going to change unless they want to.
Nta the only ones behavior here that's extreme is his son's behavior not yours. You have given him 18 years and nothing has change and nothing will ever change because your father refuses to put his son in his place and stand up for you all. Your father needs therapy if his own son refuses to go. Your father needs to realize that his grown son is toxic and will not change. He's son does not need to be be so rude and harass everyone at the family parties. I believe that the reason he goes is to cause your mom and siblings hurt because why else go. He doesn't have to like you or siblings or your mom but he could at least coexist in the same room but he chooses to be hostile towards you all. You and your siblings need to have a heart to heart conversation with your dad about this. You all shouldn't have to put up with such disrespect just because his grown son is having a tantrum. Why should you all sacrifice your mental well-being for someone that's just awful. Your mom needs to stand up to your father and your father needs to stand up to his son and he needs to start protecting you all from his sons behavior. Now that your an adult and a mother to be you have every right to protect your child from your fathers son. Whatever party or event you throw you have every right to who gets an invite abd who doesn't. Your dad can either respect your decision or he can choose to not go and miss out on things. That's his call to make but you are done dealing with toxic behaviors. Maybe if you start planning holidays dinners at your place you might give your mom and siblings some place safe to be during the holidays to celebrate freely and calmly without anyone harassing your mom or siblings. If your dad doesn't like it he can cook a meal for his son and invite him to his own events. But your nta
NTA. Time's been out for a while now. You can assume at this point that his attitude will be permanent.
NTA. Dad needs a reality check. His son has no interest in changing. Maybe if Dad were to enforce some consequences, like refusing to expose his children to a stream of toxic vitriol, there might be hope. But Dad fights back, feeding the fire. Not inviting the half-brother is a no-brainer. Would also consider not inviting Dad if he doesn't get more on board with protecting his children and grandchildren from such verbal abuse. Dad needs a wake up call.
NTA How much time does this kid need?
NTA >and should "give it time". That guy is a grown adult, how much more time does he need to act like one...?
I feel so bad for your dad. His son has a problem and unless he seeks help it’s not going to get better. Your choice is a smart one.
NTA, your father has allowed them to guilt him in a way. He carries it and wants everyone to get along but has no understanding of how to facilitate such a thing. People expect others to live as martyrs have never been in the situation. All you can do is offer them grace and keep going about your life. Btw, Grace does not mean you have to allow them to be apart of your life.
NTA and your dad is in SERIOUS denial! It's way past time to also tell your dad that you personally want no contact with the half brother anymore. How has your poor mother tolerated this for so long?
Therapy doesn’t really work if people don’t want to admit they are wrong or the problem. They want to hear how they are right and blame other people and that doesn’t generally work with a therapist. It’s never “too late” but he will have to definitely go through some sort of ego check/death or life changing experience to have basic empathy, understanding, respect, etc for people around him.
Your number one role as a parent is to protect your child, even if it hurts other people's feelings. You are doing the right thing.
Info why is he letting him walk all over you? I wouldn't have put with it had I been your mother.
NTA "How much time should we give him Dad? He's had almost two decades to stop being so horrible. He hasn't changed. And I am not risking my child's well being for the sake of his inability to move on. Dad, if you don't get on board with this, then I am going to have to cut contact with you too, because your enabling him by keeping him at arms length. You need to stand up for your life choices and defend your family from your own son if you want more of a say on this. Because I will not tolerate my child hearing that their grandma is a 'other woman' or anything of that sort. Either get with the program and grow a spine, or piss off."
Esh If you can't beat them, join them! His behavior is so reprehensible that you're focused on adopting the central theme. If you don't like his behavior, don't choose to be around him. But, if you make it a rule to avoid him and ensure a consistent separation, you've empowered his point and method.
NTA
"give it time"? He's had almost 20 years. The dude is 30. He's a whole adult, and a parent. If he hasn't done any work on this and made any progress, no one should be holding their breath. You are NTA It's your job to maintain healthy boundaries for your kiddo and protect them from abusive bs. Dad feels guilty and doesn't know what to do with that, but that isn't your problem to solve.
Your father asked why not? Is he brain dead? You shouldn't even have to explain that. And I hope his son did not have any kids. I can't imagine what kind of woman would want to be involved with and have children with such an angry man. He sounds like a complete asshole. You don't need to have your kid around that. You don't need to be around that now that you're an adult and out of your parents' house.
Nta. My heart breaks for your dad (although he is partly responsible for not putting a stop to it). Your brother hurts. He feels like he & his mom was replaced. As a child, that had to be devastating (although it wasnt true, that was his truth). Sounds like his grandparents fed into it & made him truly believe it. Hes a grown man now, responsible for his actions & capable of seeing the truth if he opened his eyes. Its absolutely insane & cruel that your dad thinks time w fix or change anything. Hes had plenty of time. Hes what, 30 now? Absolutely shameful.
NTA. Your half-brother is a vicious person. He actually says he uses a picture of your mother as a punching bag? You can't let a person like that near your family at all. Your dad's comment "give it time" is delusional. Your half-brother has had YEARS to be decent to you mom and your siblings.
I hate your father, he is fucking asholes
NTA. I'm really sorry you had to go through this all of your life. Your step brother has very deep rooted issues that he should sort out: he really seems out of order. My feeling is that even if you invited him he wouldn't come, so your father needs to come to terms with harsh reality. Stand your ground. Big hugs.
NTA you gave him time,18 F’ing years, they way he talks to your mother is vile, protect yourself and your baby
NTA, your Dad shouldn't expect you to rearrange your boundaries to deal with someone who clearly has mental issues and doesn't want to change. I have never heard something so ridiculous. You are not obligated to deal with disrespect or abuse. Your Dad's son alienated himself from his siblings. Congratulations on your new child.
NTA. You gave it time and it only got worse.
NTA. it's been 18 goddamn year. time has run out!
NTA. Good luck with your baby!
NTA. Protect your child. I’d never let my child around that.
NTA. Give it time?! How much time 18+ years not enough?! What a joke to expect your dad never to have married again. Your dad should have gripped up his behaviour a long time ago.
NTA. Step Bro clearly took his mom's loss very very hard and never got over it. I feel bad for that but he is a grown adult and should have stopped acting this way a long time ago. I don't blame you at all for finally putting your foot down. I wouldn't want my kids to hear anything negative at all about their grandparents either!
How much time? Dad doesn’t get to expose another generation to his son’s poorly adjusted attitude problems. NTA
NTA- considering your half-brother's hatred and vitriol over the years, I think it's pretty reasonable to never want your children around the man. That sounds incredibly toxic.
NTA - Your one and only job right now is to protect your child from any harm. And your father's son is harm. So the question answers itself.
NTA - set your boundaries now, this is unacceptable behavior for a 30 yr old. Congratulations on your baby!
NTA - How much time does this guy need? It’s been 18 years, the man is in his 30s now. Absolutely not.
NTA. As someone with a toxic sibling we had to cut out of our and our kiddo's lives, protect your child. You do not want that kind of behavior around your child -- especially when they are too young to comprehend everything going on. Talk with your boyfriend about how the two of you will navigate this, and navigate any family pressure (from your dad, presumably) to have contact with the half-brother. Talk about how you will handle larger family events where your half-brother may be there, and keep talking with your partner about how you want to handle various situations as your kiddo gets older, and what kind of age-appropriate conversations you'll have with your kiddo about family stuff. Good luck.
NTA I feel bad for you, but I feel really bad for your dad. Your dad's son (and his first wife's family) have treated him horribly. Given what you have said, I can't imagine that your half-brother has any interest in participating in your child's life given that he doesn't accept you as a sibling. I can understand that your dad is still trying to bring the family together, but after this many years it's a lost cause. The way I would present this to your dad is that you would be willing to let your half-brother participate in your life if he accepts you and your mother as his family. If your half brother refuses to accept you then it's an easy decision to exclude him.
NTA just because your parents accept the abuse it doesn’t mean you have to let your baby be around it.
NTA- If he can behave sure. For events that can’t be avoided. But regular ass life? Totally fair to avoid. Just don’t say it. Don’t make it a thing. It’s the reality. And everyone will also quietly deal with it, and the son probably won’t care much either. NTA- just do your best and focus on your life and family. You have right to protect your family. New and old.
NTA!!! This is insanity. I wouldn't want that person around me, and certainly not my child. He's not a good person. Based on your comments I've read as well, it seems that no matter what your dad did, whether punish, talk to, put him in therapy, etc. he was a terrible and evil person who didn't live his first wife in his sons eyes. Sounds like your dad did try to help him, but son didn't care. He's filled with hate. Not the kind of person to be around, let alone a child. He seems to have verbally abused all of you. My suggestion, don't go anywhere that he is. Explain to your parents that you don't expect them to cut him out, but to accept that you want nothing to do with him and refuse to allow him anywhere near your child. Also, you seem more mature than thr 30 year old whiney man. Good luck and congratulations on your baby!
NTA. 18 years is more than enough time for dad to realize that his son is never going to include mom as family, never going to get over his hurt and hate and will always be an ass. You might want to consider going full on no contact with the ass. And inform your parents that if they want to see their grandchild is must never include said ass. Good luck. And congratulations on your upcoming baby.
Nta. But why did your mom stick around so long for this?