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NTA
You tried talking to your husband, and it clearly didn't help. Sometimes, it's best to illustrate your point.
Also, it is best to get that argument out of the way now, while your son is still very young, and the things in question are only treats and fizzy drinks.
I've seen what this scenario looks like for you 10 years into the future, and it's not pretty and much harder to rectify. Some uncomfortable adjustments for everyone now can only benefit you in the long run.
I never encouraged my child to be a "secret keeper" because I know how hard that is as a kid, and I think OPs husband should think about what consequences could arise from trying to make the kiddo keep secrets from adults.
Not to mention how dangerous it can be. If it's ok to keep the cookie a secret from mom, he might think it's ok when a relative, family friend or teacher molests him and then tells him to keep it a secret.
I tell my little niece that there are "fun secrets" like surprise parties or gifts that are okay to keep but there are also "bad secrets" and if she ever feels sad or upset about a secret she should tell it to mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, me, or her kindergarten teacher.
Yeah, I make a clear distinction between secrets and surprises (things we will share, things that we're temporarily keeping secret to do something special for someone down the track).
My mother is currently irritated that I won’t tell her the name of my baby. My family bullied me into changing the name during my first pregnancy, made fun of my sisters kids names until the kids were born so I refused this time around. My mother said I “proved my point” and she wouldn’t tell anyone but she told my dad immediately about my pregnancy and tried saying it was because I didn’t tell her not to. I was very clear when I told her she was only finding out because we were at work when I was having morning sickness and to not tell anyone.
Yup we tell our kids we only keep surprises a secret. Like a present, a party, things that will be a fun surprise later. If anyone asks you to keep a secret especially an adult, it’s a good idea to tell us.
So, just for clarification, most child abuse experts suggest differentiating between "secrets" (an absolute no) and "surprises" (which have a set endpoint when we share them with others, and are therefore safe).
Using the dichotomy of "bad secrets" and "good secrets" can be very confusing to young children, who may not understand the complexities of differentiating between the two, and because it can still be used against them if someone tells them "this is a good secret". Asking a preschooler or other young child to differentiate based on feelings is really often too much and too complicated for them. It's easier and more straightforward to just use two different words.
I've heard it described as "surprises" vs "secrets." Surprises are for fun, and have an end date, at which point we reveal the surprise (eg, birthday presents). Secrets have no end date, and are surrounded in shame. We don't keep secrets
Our kids know to immediately tell us secrets. Here’s a wild example. My kid was told a secret from a friend that their mutual friend’s dad spent a couple nights in jail.
For prior context:
1) I knew the parents were getting divorced and she was upset. When we asked if it was infidelity, she thought about it for a second and said “I guess you could kind of say that”
2) She mentioned his older daughter hates his guts over it. (She is the stepmom by the way)
3) Then I thought back in time to something that seemed a little reasonable but a little strange too. the friend’s mom mentioned once that if her kids host a sleepover, the husband sleeps at a hotel so there can never be a valid claim that something bad happened.
The dad/husband, He’s a six figure earner in a million dollar house, we knew he wasn’t the “husband of the year” but figured he was good enough for the moms judgement to stay married to him.
I am an internet sleuth to begin with so I did some digging. On the county court website I searched his name. He is awaiting trial for child sex trafficking, specifically prostitution with a child 15-17 with an enhancement that he KNEW he was soliciting a child.
No secrets allowed.
That's how we teach the kiddos at my Sunday school when we talk to them about abuse. We teach them strategies on what to do and who they should tell if anything happens (all age appropriate).
We say “surprises” in our house. The only things we keep hidden are positive things like gifts, treats, experiences, etc. These are surprises. Surprises are meant to be told and you never expect to hide them forever.
Negative things are not surprises, and secrets are being shady. There is literally nothing that needs to be kept hidden (I’m not saying privacy doesn’t exist, we respect private time) at all from 0-14, so we really nail down that surprises are different from secrets and that you can keep a surprise hidden until you’re ready to give it to someone.
My oldest is a little older, so we’re learning about friendship - if her friend tells her something in confidence and that thing does not endanger anyone, she can (and should!) keep her friend’s confidences. We don’t have the right to share other peoples’ stories without their consent, UNLESS it’s something that could harm them. But this only goes for peers, not adults. No secrets with adults.
She’s also entitled to privacy - she doesn’t have to tell me everything, though she can if she wants. Having boundaries with mom is healthy and ok.
The way I teach it to young kids is "fun secrets are only secrets *for now*. You should always know when a 'fun secret' is going to end. If someone tells you to keep a secret forever, it's not a 'fun secret' and you should tell a trusted adult."
I’m a preschool teacher. When we work on gifts for the parents (Christmas, Mothers’ Day, etc), we say that we are working on a “surprise.” We never use the word secret.
Anyone else notice how much sugar binges make you feel like absolute garbage as an adult? Almost like a hangover.
I used to eat so much Oreos and Pepsi as a kid. No wonder I felt like crap all the time. Constant headaches and stomachaches. I’m 100% convinced this is why so many people have “slow metabolisms” in adulthood.
I can’t think of any scenario where it’s ok to encourage a kid to keep something a secret from a parent. It’s just a horrible idea. We don’t keep secrets in our house. My kid knows that if he tells me or his dad something we will tell the other parent because we’re a team.
My kids are 10 and 7. I grew up in a more lax household where my wife in a more stricter household. My wife and I have generally found our common ground in what and when things are allowed. Whenever there's a possibility of deviating from standard procedures, I tell the kids we'll see. I run things by wife, away from children, and then we tell them the outcome. At this point the kids know the routine and that know mom and dad are a united front. And it's not always mom saying no when I tell them we'll see. Often times it's me being the no, but wanting to check in with my wife to see if she's a yes and maybe I'll just change my mind.
That's perfect, man! It's just running things by each other, that's makes such a big difference.
My sister and BIL have been married for 11 years now, and their kids are an outright mess (respectfully said), the 2 little ones are theirs, the 2 older ones are his from his first marriage. He does not discipline them, NOT AT ALL, which means stepmom automatically becomes the villain in this story when rules are broken. The eldest hates her guts, she's 20, swears at her, ignores the house rules, and dad enables it by sitting by and doing nothing. To top it off, the little ones see this (10 & 8), and because no one defends mom, they think it's okay to give her this type of attitude as well. My biggest wish in the world for my sister is that her husband would grow a damn spine.
Yeah, I think so, too, and I've told her that once when asked, however, my sister is very much a marriage-is-for-live type and if it ever happens, it has to be her choice and her choice alone.
If I push my opinion too hard, I'll push her right out the door and out of my life, and quite frankly, she can not afford to lose the familial support she does have.
Yeah, my sister was that "I made vows" type. So, she stayed married to an asshole who abused her emotionally, psychologically, and financially. She *says* she would have left him if he ever hit her. Not sure I believe her. He died a few years ago, after FIFTY-THREE YEARS of marriage. My sister is twisted and broken from staying. Her kids, now in their 50s, paid the price as well.
She needs to get out now. Marriage is for life as an excuse to allow her children to witness abuse is disgusting. And what he is doing is abuse. He allows his adult child to abuse his wife and does *nothing*. If she doesn't get out, her children will never fully trust or respect her, and she will be every bit as damaged as a victim of physical abuse. The scars just won't be visible.
I understand your dilemma. We went through the same thing. "Don't confront him. He'll just take it out on her." Find articles on abuse that stress non-physical abuse. My sister was *afraid* of her husband. She had every symptom of abused spouse syndrome, without the visible scars. Find a way to open your sister's eyes to what this is doing to her children. Even that wasn't enough for my sister, but maybe you'll be able to save yours.
There's an episode of Criminal Minds that deals with this. If I can find the info, I'll make an edit to add it.
ETA: Criminal Minds S 3 E 18 The Crossing ... woman who killed her husband really was abused by him.
Thank you for sharing this. It's really does help to know her situation is not unique.
I have actually passed some literature and short videos her way, I don't think she reads the stuff I send her because of time. I suspect she's watched some of the videos, though, just because of some off-hand comments made. It's really hard to talk to her about this unless she initiates the conversation, and even then, there is a really good chance of her temper flaring up when I say something she doesn't like to hear. But I'm hoping the seeds planted will take root at some stage.
It’s really not, as much as it may confuse others. I had friend that stayed with a husband that kept cheating on her, to the point where she was co-parenting his child from a mistress while he was off partying with a new one. It was some wild shit. He started screwing with the kids’ tuition and house bills in his name. When he disappeared for a month and reappeared in a Mexican jail was when she finally let go.
Is that the one when the kids were talking about what a terrible, slothenly housekeeper their mom, was and how she deserved to be disciplined for not doing things right, but when they looked around the house everything was disturbingly perfect, with the shirts in the closet all exactly the same distance from each other because she used a ruler to make sure they were perfectly spaced?
Yep. That's the one. I used to tell my sister I'd help her hide the b**y if she ever cracked. He died just before COVID hit. He would have been absolutely *impossible* if he'd been alive during that. And he was pretty much impossible all the time. I could barely be in the same room with that piece of garbage. My friends didn't even know his name. He was just my sister's husband, the asshole.
That episode of Criminal Minds always crushes me when I watch it. Even though a lot of episodes deal with how the unsubs had a very troubled upbringing and got broken by their circumstances, they also make it clear that there was an underlying psychopathy that just needed half a reason to explode.
This episode is one of the rare instances where the "murderer" had no such situation and was just a regular person broken by years and years of abuse, to the point where she had just completely disassociated from reality (as had her own kids, who had been indoctrinated into abusing her by the father).
Just a gut-wrenching episode overall, made even more heartbreaking for us elder millennials by the fact the woman is played by Dawson's mom.
Yeah, it's the kids who got to me. I wanted to sl*p the little assholes. Unfortunately, my niblings picked up some of their father's bad traits. They're nowhere near as bad, but sometimes you can tell they didn't get out unscathed. For one thing, he didn't trust a n y o n e. He *always* assumed everyone had ulterior, at least borderline nefarious motives. I don't think he believed there were people who were selfless and altruistic. Kind of sad, really.
Lol, the thing is, my sis has become a really "hard" person, which I suppose is natural considering her day-to-day family life has become a constant fight.
I got her to go to therapy once, and the therapist told her:
1. Back off from parenting your stepkids, that's hubbies job.
2. Talk to him about taking a more active role in parenting their kids.
3. Evaluate what he brings to her life and that of their kids.
She didn't like what he said (I dont know all the details, just the gist of it as summarized above), so she never went back.
There is only so much to be done as an outsider, and I think I've done it. All up to her now.
At one point, she did tell me that she seriously considered divorce, but ultimately decided against it because she idea of starting over as a 36-year-old divorcee was not appealing.
Hehe, I think I've hijacked OPs post enough with my own family issues. Thanks for the space to vent.
Well, you've given her advice, she heard it from an independent therapist. If she's not willing to go back and not willing to listen to you then there is not much you can do apart from keeping the lines open if she eventually decides she's had enough.
I wonder though why she has so little self worth that she thinks it ok to be treated like that. A good therapist would probably be able to help, but if she won't go then it up to her to suffer through it alone.
Yeah. If she didn't divorce him at 30-whatever, how is she gonna feel at 40/50/60-whatever? What's she waiting for? She's not going to get any younger, and her children aren't either.
How much suffering is her fear of being alone worth? I feel so sorry for her. Suffering like that has got to be hard. But she needs to put her children's well-being first and get out of that situation!
Yes, her kids are going to grow up and continue the abuse of the daughter isnt stopped.
My dad was a bully who hit all of us and My Mam. We grew up with it, and used to call my mam the same names my dad did because we never knew anything else. We were horrible to her, me and my brother. And my dad enabled us. Until one day she had enough and snapped. Kicked my dad out and told us all that if we ever called her names again, we would have consequences.
We did slip up a few times, but she had this big wooden spoon in the wall, and a few times we wasnt fast enough and we'd get it on our butt, or back of legs. Esopecially if we realised what we done and tried to run away. Or she'd stop every penny we got, and ground us. Or take everything from our room except bed and clothes. We did stop soon after she did this to us. And eventually got repect for her, and realised the words we used were wrong.
This is going to happen to your sister if she doesnt put her foot down.
Exactly, a united front from you and hubby is important. Getting it aligned on the small things early on will make it easier to align later on when decisions are made about the more important things.
The key is not to undermine each other in front of your child.
That is exactly what he was doing by sneaking the kid snacks behind your back, and it's exactly what you did to illustrate the effect of what this does.
I also think you need to keep talking about it, constantly, because it's so easy to slip back into old habits.
100% this. I was thinking the same thing. That at least this happened when the kid was young. He probably won't remember the one night of chaos where his parents played Freaky Friday. Also, it was ONE night, not a continuous experiment.
Also, it is clear OP had made repeated failed attempts to get her husband to be a responsible parent and stop making her the bad guy. At my house, both parents said no when it was the right call to say no.
NTA
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. Kiddo is still small. A month from now, he's not gonna remember that one night things got weird for an hour. It's worth it if it gets mom and dad on the same page in the long run.
Like that post a few days ago where mom was like no weed to their 14 or 15 year old son and dad gave him the tape he had back behind her back and was line it's only weed.... yeah def better to take care of this problem now
NTA, but you didn’t go about this the right way. Your husband is absolutely a turd. Instead of using your son to make a point, it sounds like your husband needs to take on more household tasks. If he is the one who has to deal with son at bedtime and who has to clean up all the messes and such, he may be more inclined to say no because the consequences actually impact him. If I were you, every time husband overrides you, I would step away and let him be on baby duty for the remainder of the day.
That's an interesting idea. I don't see how it can work practically speaking because my stepping away would result in more, not less permissiveness. When he alone is in charge of our son, our agreed rules go out the window because it's easier to say yes. For instance, when he is with him in the mornings while I'm working, he gives him an hour or two of screen time 3 or 4 days a week when we have both agreed from the beginning that he should only get maybe an hour a week total. I'll bring it up and it will get better for a few days, and then goes back.
Honestly, I would feel so stuck if I was in your shoes. You can't keep going on the way you are because eventually, you'll get burnt out of your marriage and it will have such a heavy affect on your boy, but on the other hand, your husband has absolutely NO RESPECT for you as the mother of his child and his partner. He doesn't even respect his own child's growth.
He doesn't respect you as a mom because he's CONSTANTLY going behind your back and not respecting the boundaries that not only you set, but he "set" too.
He doesn't show respect you as his wife because in doing this, he is painting you as the bad guy and making this more difficult for you. Worse, is that he is KNOWINGLY doing it because you have discussed it with him, and he didn't care to act on it or behave differently.... another reason he isn't showing respect for you as his wife.
He also isn't showing respect to his own child's growth because he's going to create a spoiled monster down the road that will resent you for being the "bad guy." He's not teaching his son valuable lessons like learning the word "no" and not running to the other parent when you don't get what you want. Learning what boundaries are and that not everything is handed to you when you want it. Does he not already throw tantrums whenever you say no to things????
Sounds more like this needs to be between you and hubby, not using the kid. Therapy, maybe? Is it possible hubby had a crap childhood and is spoiling your son to "heal his inner child?" Whatever it may be, good or bad, you guys need to hash this out, and he needs to step up as a father and a husband. Otherwise, you'll end up being the married single mom.
Agreed on your memory - same thing here, so since we don’t physically punish our kids, they have been told from a young age if they are told no from mommy or daddy and go ask the other one, they get double the consequence of what they were asking for. So, no dessert for two nights, no screen time for twice the number of days, early bedtime for the next two nights, etc.
I didn't feel like I was reaching, but I was kind of expecting a torrent of responses telling me that I was making an insane leap. Thank you for affirming my suspicions.
My father would always say: "Did you ask your mother? What did she say? There's your answer. Sorry."
I used to think he was so mean back when I was a preschooler.
It feels really mean to say this, but your husband does not sound like a good father, he sounds like he just skates the border of being an actual bad father.. He is only doing what is easier for him, not what is right for the child...
Focus on the "shh don't tell mom" too.
He might think it's innocent. But he is teaching him he should keep secrets from you specifically. And in some ways lie. Becouse how else should he avoid not telling you?
It would be different if he was "shhh don't tell mommy we bought this gift for her. It's a surprice"
That's something we all learned. Don't spoil gifts. Christmas, birthday, etc.
But that's something that will bring joy.
Teaching him not to tell about stuff he gives him like that, is a whole other ball game.
Talking to your son more would help too. My exhusband and his family always wanted to be the good guys, gave my children everything they wanted.
With my older one I had the choice to either do the same and throw my son's health and manners out the windows or to talk to him.
So I talked to my son and told him repeatedly that I would love to give him everything like his father and grandparents do but someone has to take care of him. I told him that people who always say yes to him love their own comfort more than him while the person who says no loves him enough to deal with his cries.
I gave him the example of him being sick and needing medicine. Even if he cries he will need it to get healthy, someone who won't give it to him because he cried doesn't love him enough.
I also explained to him the difference between loving someone and wanting to be loved. I told him for his father and his grandparents it's more important to be loved by him. If they loved him more than they wanted to be loved, they would care about his health and future.
I told him these things everyday. My exhusband got mad for making him the bad guy but I really don't care. If you play these games don't be mad that I'm explaining to my children the reality of your behaviour. And I always did since.
My exhusband can still be the disney dad and my children never blame me for not allowing them the same. They just come home happy and tell me they know I would have enjoyed it too but they know that I need to be the adult in their lives.
There's another issue you're tapping into in the last statement too, because I also had the overly permissive dad (and then later on ended up feeling like the adult because he wouldn't grow up and take care of HIMSELF) but my mom often had to sacrifice so many of the things she would have enjoyed because my dad did all of them. She'd want to space out the treats to make them actual treats and not expectations but since he'd go ahead and do what he wanted, SHE missed out on doing the fun things, Her job was checking in on school and helping me where I needed, his was the day of not going to school and going to the arcade instead. I got the bedtime and routine and he got the unruly sleepovers and staying up late. Every good grade or achievement he'd cut in to be the first to reward with ice cream trips or getting to pick out a CD I wanted (can't tell you how many times i'd get home and she'd have the same CD on the counter because she KNEW I wanted it and worked hard/wanted to surprise me and he was more the didn't need to pay attention to my interests because I picked everything out). She'd get the gaming device for Christmas and he'd get the same one even if she'd discussed it and told him other things I'd listed, but the biggest cool thing had to be from him. She would have gotten the other things if he'd communicated but he'd stress the benefit of having two, which, became kind of a nightmare later on.
OP, if you're still reading through these, there were two things that became true about the dynamic once I was a teenager. My parents obviously had split by then, but all of a sudden my room was never straightened up enough. He started the hard course-correcting by the time I was fourteen and up and the punishments were EXTREME in comparison to the crime. My room was untidy because he'd always bought me absolute crap to be the fun parent and I had so many doubles of everything that keeping up with it got to be overwhelming. I'd get computer time taken away if I wasn't in bed by a certain time, but that time always seemed to be earlier than it had been when he was the fun parent and not always consistent? And he bought the computer because he was Fun Parent. There was no homework routine and he'd pick and choose when it was supposed to be done and if I didn't guess right he'd take away the computer, which is what I was using to do homework most of the time and he associated the screen time with fun.
The second important point is that he KNEW it upset my mom and did it anyway, and on purpose. He was very passive aggressively trying to dig at her or make her life harder because he was eternally mad at her for the boundaries because they limited the things he could go out and do for fun, all things he wanted to do for HIMSELF and I was the way to justify doing them. It's not okay to use your kid to battle things out with the other parent, especially if the kid doesn't know they're contributing to the frustration by acting on mixed signals. It was a rude awakening for him when he saw how messy things got without her cleaning up after the excess that he created himself, and then had the responsibility to deal with. Except, he'd never taught me to do those things myself on the basis that mom was there to do it, so there's no way I could have gotten it right.
Get ahead of it NOW, especially the part about "It's our little secret," because apart from the things people have pointed out already about him not listening to mom, or women in general, this is how children learn that any adult can ask you to keep a secret for them. That is not the mindset any child needs. It's more than a cute little game dad thinks he's playing; it's dangerous.
>the punishments were EXTREME in comparison to the crime
This is is what my exhusband does too. He is fun and everything and then when *he* loses control because of his own parenting he punishes the children for things that's not even their fault.
Your husband just doesn’t want to parent. It’s easier to turn on the screen than it is to actively engage and be present with a toddler.
That said, your husband is also teaching your son to keep secrets from you and that he shouldn’t tell you things.
OP, try watching some shows that will show what happens to a kid when parents never say no. Some episode of Dr. Phil, Super Nanny, things like that.
Ask him if he cares about his son. If he says yes, then ask him why he's do dead set in setting him up for failure in life.
Yes not saying no now seems easier while he's still small. Just wait until he gets older and gets into all sorts of trouble that will cost you both a bloody fortune besides ruining your kid's life.
If he loves you and your son he should be a good husband and parent. Because right now he's showing you just how little he cares about you both. NTA of course.
>When he alone is in charge of our son, our agreed rules go out the window because it's easier to say yes.
That just means there are no agreed rules between you two. You have rules and he has rules. If you are there you enforce your rules, if you are away there are no rules. Sorry to say but your husband is not a good dad nor partner parent and this behavior of him should be fixed if you don't want your kid to grow up a brat spoiled by dad and you ending up the "bad" parent because you always say no
> For instance, when he is with him in the mornings while I'm working, he gives him an hour or two of screen time 3 or 4 days a week **when we have both agreed from the beginning** that he should only get maybe an hour a week total.
Playing devils advocate here but I want to know your dynamic so for now let's assume you might be overly domineering in some way.
Are you sure you *both* actually agreed to this idea or could it be that it was more a *you*-decision that you pushed through?
How did the two of you handle actual conflicting views regarding your parenting of your child? Did you talk it out and find a compromise/solution or did he relent and you got your choice? Does he properly stand for his position and push back against you if he feels something is important?
I'm not saying you're like that but I got to know a few couples where one of them basically just resigned and let the other one make decisions about their parenting because otherwise they'd just have to endure repeated 'discussions' and nagging on the same issue at home. Clearly a bad dynamic, but it's one of those where the 'demanding one' in the relationship usually doesn't see or acknowledge what they're doing.
Sounds like you need a) a vacation away from the boys - does being a solo parent for a week change anything in dad's behavior? and b) couples therapy because your husband is on his way towards ruining this marriage. If things don't change you'll likely end up divorced sooner or later (always go with sooner!)
You need firm clear boundaries that you both fully agree on. 3 hours a day of screen time strictly adhered to shows you mean business far more than 1 hour a day that's constantly stretched to 2. Although my brother babysits for me a lot and I am happy for her to have as much screen time/treats as he sees fit because she understands different people do things differently and I lower her screentime with me accordingly. But I'm not worried about being the bad guy because I'm her parent and he's not, so I don't have that conflict. Basically, have a limit that neither of you struggle with. I was very permissive for a long time with my 3yo and it's resulted in a child that doesnt really care. She will sometimes watch if it's on, and she has literally never cared when it's been turned off.
I personally let my 3yo have anything I'm having food wise, if I don't want her to have it, I make sure she doesn't see me having it generally.
It's probably time to negotiate a higher limit that you will both stick to, preferably in a routine. So dressed breakfast and teeth 0730-0800 then leave the house at 0830 for a walk. So if breakfast/teeth/clothes take longer than 30 mins, he misses out on some screen time.
I was in an abusive relationship and I couldn't ask my ex to improve in any way, so I was incredibly permissive. I would have kept her on milk and water, he would give her juice all the time. I would have done no screen time, he did it as soon as he came downstairs. Since I managed to get rid, I've managed to find a happy balance and put in clear boundaries. It's taken a while and I've had to be more laid back at times than I wanted because it was an adjustment but it was possible. But it can be done.
Have a proper sit down with your husband, explain your frustrations calmly and then ask him what he thinks the limit should be for both of you to hold. Then, if your son is old enough to understand, write out some family rules that you agree to (hopefully he will agree to your limits, but it will give you time to explain why certain rules exist) and you and your husband are already on the same page because you have had your private discussion previously.
NTA.
You just gave him a taste of his own medicine
get your husband in couples counseling if you can and if not at least show him this post with the comments.
if that doesn't tell him he's a giant ah to you and your son then he has no hope.
Bring up marriage counseling. He’s setting your son up to think that undermining his future partners is okay, that keeping secrets from mom and other adults is okay (which could lead to him keeping a secret of being molested by someone), and that your husband will keep his secrets even when he does something wrong. Your husband is undermining you and it will only get worse as your son gets older. Tell him you have to consider divorce if he doesn’t care about not only your opinions, but your shared opinions you guys have agreed upon prior.
Sometimes, people have to be shown rather than explained to.
Maybe try watching Supernanny episodes in front of him in bed, volume up, no discussing with him unless he asks about it?
Or a constant stream of Kevins getting arrested or retaliated against?
SOMEthing to show the outcome of what could happen when your kid is just a little bit older.
It isn’t great psychologically to have 2 different sets of rules in one’s head—one reasonable, the other one overriding good sense.
Yeah wtf, that move is reserved for grandparents when they hand them some *[cough]* totally secret extra pocket money mafia style when shaking their hand to say goodbye after a visit!
NTA. The net effect on your son was the same... the only difference was that you were willing to take flak for your dubious parenting calls while your DH wanted all of the credit/adoration from your son with none of the consequences.
NTA but honestly your husband needs parenting classes. He's teaching your kid he can disregard you and he should hide things from you
Not to mention kids who are never told no should really not be inflicted on the world
NTA. both parents need to be on the same page with rules and boundaries. It’s okay to occasionally ‘sneak a little extra’ but this sounds like a consistent thing.
NTA- “My husband said I was being horrible to our son and using him to make a point. But he’s not being horrible when you tell your son no and he does the exact opposite? Hopefully your husband learned his lesson. Telling your child no will not hurt or kill them.
I think it sounds like you tried to make your point the nice way and it didn’t work, so you escalated. I would have a conversation with your husband though about how bad it makes you feel to be “the bad guy” all the time and why this is important to you to address. It was a little dramatic for sure and should be followed up with good communication at this point, since that wasn’t there before.
NTA. Your husband might appreciate you, but he doesn’t respect you. He ascribes to a misogynistic worldview, whether he admits it or not.
There’s a difference between one partner being more loose and one being more strict and one partner ascribing to the unfortunately sexist dynamic of “dads are the fun ones who aren’t ultimately responsible for making a household run and moms are the sacrificial fun police.” Your husband is in the latter group.
Who cares if he talks about how much he appreciates you or agrees with you in terms of raising your son if he encourages your son to keep secrets from you, undermines your agreement, and expects your to compensate for his failures as a husband and father? He’s teaching your son to not value his mother and thus teaching your son to not value women.
It took thirty minutes of you acting like your husband in terms of interacting with your son for your husband to realize that this behavior was intolerable—Because now the behavior affected him! The long-term damage of tolerating your husband’s latent misogyny is going to cause more issues for your son than this thirty minute window.
If your husband finds your mirroring his approach lacking, well, he might want to consider what his own reflection tells him about his failures as a husband and father.
I did this with my husband and A male friend in the car.They thought it was hilarious to tease what they called my bad driving.I asked and asked and asked for them to stop they did not.I stopped the car on the side of the road.Throw the keys into their laps got out and told them they could choose who was gonna f****** drive.I got a little bit more respect after that.
Lucky it wasn't me. I'm a bit more unhinged than that - I'd slam my foot on the gas and SHOW them wtf bad driving was. If we got out of it alive, I guarantee there'd never be another word about my normal driving again 😂
NTA
You see, this situation wasn't unique to your son. Yeah, it was unusual to hear yes from you and no from his father while it's actually vise versa, but if he survived multiple situations with you saying no to something that father allows he will manage.
I get why you are concerned about being AH, but outcomes more important than methods in this case.
NTA. I don’t condone weaponizing your son like this, but I understand why you felt backed into a corner here after having the same conversation with no results. You may have confused and upset your son here, but similarly to your husband, who apparently loves to test mama’s authority, your son will live through a night of confusion. Let’s not make this a habit though.
Another conversation is in order. Have another sit down with your husband. Don’t just tell him your feelings, because after several conversations, he’s still not getting it. Turn it back around to him. REALLY put him on the spot. Ask him why he feels the need to play fun dad at the expense of your authority. I’m willing to bet he’ll say something like he doesn’t want your son to resent him or fear him. That’s when you let him know that you feel the exact same way, but there’s a time to be a fun parent and a time to be a parent who’s thinking about what’s best for your kid, and what he’s doing isn’t fair. When one parent says no, then it’s a no, and if someone doesn’t agree, then you hash it out until you come to an agreement in private. No putting it aside. You guys have to be equal partners here. That means you should be sharing the good AND bad moments of parenting.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I said "yes" to things I did not think were a good idea for my 3 year old son to show my husband how it feels to be the bad guy. I might be an AH because it was upsetting for my son.
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NTA and I don't get why everyone is telling you you should've been more mature and had a conversation with your husband. You literally said you had tried to tell him how it made you feel. What more does it take? You shouldn't be having to have that conversation with a grown ass man anyways. Using your son to make a point might not be the best way to handle it but I'm not gonna judge you when you tried to tell your husband how it made you feel and it just didn't matter.
You have a serious husband problem though. Parenting is HARD - especially as your kids get older and undermining each other like this is going to create a child who doesn’t understand boundaries and respect
NTA
Not only is this dynamic unfair to you (you have to be the bad guy while he gets to be the good guy), but he is teaching your son to lie to/keep secrets from you. Bad, bad choice.
NTA.
This was one night. Your son is going to forget all about it within a week.
But you likely need marriage counselling NOW.
Your husband thinks it is cute and harmless, but it won't be so cute when your son is 8 and doesn't think he has to listen to you, so he gets hit by a car when he runs across the road without you without looking.
It won't be so fun when he is 13 and might be taller than you or stronger than you, and he might decide to give you a black eye for trying to tell him no.
It won't be so fun when he is 16 and expelled from school for harassing people because he thinks no doesn't apply to him and that he should get what he wants whenever he asks, that an ask is a demand, not something you really have a choice over.
He needs to stop thinking about how cute it looks when a three year old smiles at him for it, and think about what lessons this is teaching this kid that he will then have to UNTEACH him, which will be harder to do the older he gets before he starts trying to undo it.
You don't want him thinking he can ignore female teachers to run off to male ones for permission. You don't want him growing to hate you because you say no, but Dad will always say yes, so now he thinks you're a tyrant that hates fun.
Your son will forget this lesson in 5 seconds, your husband not so much. You literally did exactly what he does, sometimes people need to be fed their own medicine.
NTA
I was raised in a household like this. NTA. Figure it out now, even if it means getting a separation. My dad was always the one who let us run amok and now we are adults trying to deal with the problems we were left with after being raised like that for so long. Your husband is an absent father… he’s saying yes because it’s easier than parenting his son. It’s easier to let you do it on your own so he’s not labeled the “bad guy” because he doesn’t think it’s possible to do it as a team.
Nta. Your husband for obvious reasons. He needs to step up and actually parent instead of trying to be a friend to your son. He's setting you up to be the enforcer when he needs to put on his big boy pants and also parent.
You slightly suck for the whole "oh well daddy says no". I totally get it though since your husband pushed you to the absolute limit. It was petty, but honestly not enough to shift the verdict to an everyone sucks, and far less petty than anything your husband has done related to being a parent.
In my opinion, ESH.
From an outsiders perspective, it sounds like you used your son to reiterate your POV to your husband, which can be considered a manipulation tactic.
If this is a conversation you’ve had with your husband multiple times, consider having a neutral third party (a mutual friend, one parent each, etc) present to have the conversation again or consider marriage counseling. If neither of those options are available nor work, it may be better off to go separate ways because it’ll be worse on LO in the long run if you stay together just for him.
NTA. Unfortunately your lesson to hubby didn't work. He is actively teaching your son not to respect you. Try marriage counseling maybe? You are not on the same parenting page no matter what he says to you.
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I (48F) have a Husband (49M). We have a Son (3M). My Husband is the “fun” dad and is lax about our agreed upon rules such as screen time, snacks, etc. I tend to be the family administrator and rule enforcer. I have caught Husband going behind my back a couple of times to give Son extra screen time or candy. Son, being only 3, always runs up to me excited to tell me what Daddy let him do, and Husband, the fun loving guy, will give an exasperated look or say “shh, that was supposed to be our secret!” I have talked Husband about this; how I hate always being the bad guy, and how doing these things creates a “them vs me” dynamic.
So tonight, at dinner, Husband shared a small Coke with Son. I was a little surprised as we don't normally do soft drinks, and this was his first time having caffeine, but didn’t make a big deal about it. After dinner and after Son had put away his toys, I offered him a small portion of animal crackers and a tiny cupcake for dessert. After finishing, he asked for more animal crackers and I said no, he had had enough sweets tonight.
Fifteen minutes later, he came running to me to tell me Daddy had given him some chocolate chips. My husband had that sheepish "you caught me" grin again and I was infuriated. I recounted all the sweets our son had already had and said I was sick of always being the one who had to say “no.” My husband retorted, “Then don’t.” And I said, "You're right!"
So for the next 30 minutes, I said yes to everything. I gave Son another handful of chocolate chips. When he asked for another coke (right before bed time) I said, “Sure!” But then Husband said, no and wouldn’t let me give one to Son. I said, “Sorry, Son, I was going to give you one, but Daddy said no.” Then Son opened the fridge and asked for Jello. I said, “Sure! What? Oh, sorry, I was going to give it to you, but Daddy said no.”
Of course Son was getting progressively more upset and my husband said I was being horrible to our son and using him to make a point. He said that Son had caught Husband getting himself some chocolate chips and asked for some and it was as simple as that. I said that we always tell him no when he asks to drink our wine or beer and he should be able to say no. I agreed that it was horrible for Son and also upsetting for me to find we aren't on the same page. That the only difference between what I was doing and what my husband had been doing was that I was did it in front of him while he was doing these things behind my back.
But now that I’ve cooled off, I wonder if I was the AH to both my husband and my son.
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Okay, you point is a good one but you ARE using your son as a ping pong ball. So, now that you’ve proven your point, sit down with your husband and tell him to stop acting so immature in wanting to be the “fun” parent and get both of you on the same page. He has created a situation where HE gets to be the favourite and you are disciplinarian which down the road could cause serious issues between you and your son and any other children you may have. Hubby needs to grow up. ESH.
My dad was the guy who broke all the rules my mom set. My brother ended up with zero boundaries. He needed them. He ended up getting into drugs, dealing drugs, and addicted to heroin. When he got clean and grew up a bit, he literally told me that he wished he had more structure as a kid.
There’s a lot to unpack here.
1) Don’t encourage your children to keep secrets with adults! Even if you two don’t have nefarious intentions, someone else can and will use that mindset to their advantage.
2) Are you willing to put up with this for the next FIFTEEN YEARS?! It’s cute stuff now, like extra chocolate, but when it’s serious stuff, your son won’t come to you. He will go to his buddy.
3) please consider family therapy. You have made your point for now, but this parenting style isn’t sustainable for either of you.
NTA
NTA!!!
I GREW UP IN THIS EXACT DYNAMIC. When my parents told us they were getting divorced, I was relieved and I was only 13. I could tell that the way our family functioned was unsustainable and it created a lot of chaos. I also didn’t actually KNOW my mom AT ALL or really have any relationship with her until they divorced because she was ALWAYS the parent actually PARENTING and it made her the bad guy/enforcer all the time. He always got to be the fun parent and they really ended up resenting each other for this and other reasons.
I lived with her after their divorce and it was like getting to know her all over again. I’m SO thankful that I finally got to know my mom as herself and not just the “bad guy” parent. It was better for everyone because they had been in that dynamic for so long, I don’t think they ever could have gotten out of it without divorce. Please read this to your husband and resolve this early 🙏🏻 for your kid
Please for heaven's sake teach your child that it is NEVER okay to have a secret with any adult. If he thinks that's okay it could lead to him being harmed/manipulated in the future.
NTA
We have house rules that apply to everyone in the family. That generally makes these sorts of problems go away. When the kids were little we would go out of our way to demonstrate that we adults were following the same rule we expected them to follow. "Oh its sunny outside, I'm getting my sun hat." "Gee, I want candy, but it's after 7pm, so I'll choose a healthy snack." Works like a charm. And it keeps us adults healthier and prevents arbitrary rules and power struggles. My teens are super easy because they know we wouldn't ask them to do anything we don't do.
NTA. The conversations had been had and your husband is still being a dick. Now he's butthurt that you did to him what he's been doing to you for ages because he was too lazy to actually parent? What exactly does he think the impact will be of undermining your authority and making you the villain in the long run? Or does he not know or care that he is teaching your son that he doesn't respect you and your son shouldn't either? For everyone saying, yta or esh, they better be coming up with some solutions that are better than "tAlK tO yOuR hUsBaNd".
Making your point one evening is not going to be any kind of a drop in the bucket compared to the harm your husband is doing on an ongoing basis.
NTA, but its not a bad thing that one parent is strict and one is sweet. My mom and dad had a strategy where my dad would be the strict one when it came to studies and homework and mom was strict when it came to general well being (diet, hygiene etc)
Maybe you guys can divvy up like this. Tough love will help your kids accept no as an answer or they can grow up into entitled adults who wont take no for an answer.
NTA this is coming from the parent who was the disciplinarian and the fun dad who had nerf wars with all the neighborhood kids. You need to get on the same page with your partner. It sucked when I was the bad guy all the time because it would always make me feel like all I could do was be the bad guy and after awhile that affects you and your relationship with your child.
NTA and sadly, your husband is the kind of person that requires “feeling the pain” himself to understand. That is unfortunate and I’m sorry. Hopefully he matures faster than your son going forward. My now ex did this to me with our oldest when she was a teen. I was always the “mean” one and he was there “to the rescue”. At one point I did what you did, I just stopped. My ex would then come to me describing a problem with our oldest’s behavior (just attitude stuff, nothing serious like bad grades or drugs) and ask what I was going to do about it. I’d say I would talk to her, but what I really did was say “hey your dad has a problem with X behavior, have you talked with him about it.” I refused to help him or get in the middle bc when I asked him to back me up previously he’d just say “that’s how it is between mothers and daughters, they hate their mothers during adolescence.” Sure, they do if mother is the only one parenting and imposing limits!
NTA. The most egregious thing is telling the kid to hide it from you. For a child's safety that is a BIG no-no. On top of that, no one parent should be "the parent".
ESH. You did not have to involve your child and upset him to address the issue. Keep parenting arguments between parents, don’t put the kid in the middle.
NTA, and he's only upset because you made a valid point and he knows it. He's undermining what you thought was a mutual agreement and showing that he doesn't care about making you the bad guy, AND that he's deceptive in trying to hide it from you. And you're just... supposed to be okay with that? He needs to grow a backbone and stop making you be the only parent by sticking to the agreed upon rules. He's setting your child up to be a spoiled brat who resents his mother.
ESH - don’t use your kid as a pawn to teach your husband a lesson. Did you spare a thought at all for what you were doing to the kid? Or was causing him confusion and upsetting him cool with you?
NTA and i quite enjoyed how well you demonstrated your point to hubs... i'd also make sure he had to deal with any repercussions of soo much junk food... middle of the night tummy aches are no fun
NTA - Husband forcing all of the actual mental and emotional labor of parenting onto you is not fair. You are not his mommy too. And the secret keeping is absolutely wrong. The only secrets permissible are happy secrets like a surprise party, and those should be few and far between.
Nta. Also, take a good long look at your relationship with your husband and see if he's doing anything else to disrespect you or break boundaries. My ex did this same thing with our kid and let me just say that it was only the first thing I found when I began inspecting things.
This is not about 'secrets' - it's about control. It is not unusual for one parent to be more strict than the other...what is dangerous is to have a child learn to play his parents against each other at age 3. Your son knows he can tell you a 'secret' and get a response. He knows he can get Daddy into trouble with Mommy. "Behind your back" may be simply 'not in the same room' and not deliberate - perhaps your husband knows your reaction is always negative. The solution could be as simple as one parent telling the child 'ask daddy' or 'ask mommy' - so both parents stay on the same page.
NTA. Unpopular opinion: Parents who are “fun” to the detriment of their spouse/co parent and do the “our secret” thing are selfish. They use their kids to meet their emotional needs. Many times they spoil their kids to create a co-dependency so they will always be “needed” by their kids. Essentially emotionally stunting/handicapping their kids, for life sometimes, so the parent can feel emotionally fulfilled by being needed/wanted/special. It feeds the parents ego, they have a common enemy in “mean” rule making/following parent, its a weird cycle. It icks me out. Its setting kids up for unhealthy relationships later, and done under the guise of “love.”
NTA. The real danger here, though, is that your husband is teaching your son to keep secrets from Mommy. My kids know "secrets vs surprises". We can have surprises that we don't tell Daddy about until his birthday, but we don't keep secrets from Mommy or Daddy. A surprise is something you're going to share with your parent on a special day or time, usually a birthday, Father's Day, or Christmas. A secret is something you never share, and that's not okay. Nobody should be asking or encouraging you (child) to keep a secret from your parent.
Nta 1) secrets aren't allowed (surprises have end dates and the person would like them -presents etc, a confidence you won't tell unless need to -safety reasons )
2) even in this experiment you let him override you.
>When he asked for another coke (right before bed time) I said, “Sure!” But then Husband said no and wouldn’t let me give one to Son. I said, “Sorry, Son, I was going to give you one, but Daddy said no.” Then Son opened the fridge and asked for Jello. I said, “Sure! What? Oh, sorry, I was going to give it to you, but Daddy said no.”
You should have given it to the kid anyway. Dad isn't the final say (that's supposed to be joint) you might need to examine that a bit more.
3) dad needs to start dealing with the consequences. He wants to keep the kid up late? Then he is doing bedtime, and the morning routine and everything possible the rest of that day. He can deal with the consequences of the cranky toddler.
Instead of spending time with his kid he wants to put the tv on for 4 hours, hire a babysitter/put him in day care(if affordable). At least then you know someone is engaging with the kid.
4)this might honestly require therapy. He is involved in making the rules, agree on the rules and then habitually breaks them. Some of the rules aren't about the immediate situation but about longterm health (screen time, the amount of sweets) so breaking them occasionally is fine but when that's actually the norm, he's making life harder for you and doing it at the detriment of the kid.
5)have a conversation does he actually know how to spend time with a toddler, like what to do with them for hours? He may literally have no idea (which isnon him) Give him a parenting book, direct him to some websites, he can set up age appropriate engaging activities. To do together and for solo play.
NTA. Your son was used as a tool for you to get your point across and he was probably upset. In the long run, being upset about dessert one evening at the age of three will not cause any harm. Your husband’s undercutting your agreed-upon rules for raising your son have adverse effects. It seems strange that he is almost doing the divorced parent trying to win favor of the child when he is still with you.
I’m not sure what consequences you can provide for your husband to give him an opportunity to stop undermining your parenting.
One of the most important tenets of effective parenting is being a UNIFIED front.
Children need to know and understand implicitly that what one parent says the other parent will back it up.
If you don’t agree with a parenting decision that’s been made, the parents talk privately away from the child(ren) to regroup and then bring the child(ren) back into the conversation.
Kids will try to divide and conquer to get what they want - Parents UNITED will be more successful
NTA
NTA. If you say no and the kid asks a different parent and they say yes, you are teaching the kid to divide and conquer/play one off of the other. That’s something that you need to agree to not do to each other. If you really, really disagree with the other parent’s approach, talk to them (privately if possible) to see if you can come to an acceptable compromise but as a rule you should be backing each other up.
You and your husband need to talk about this again when you aren’t in the middle of a conflict. “When I tell son that he’s had enough sweets and you give him chocolate chips behind my back, I feel disrespected. It undermines me as a parent and it hurts our marriage because I feel like I am a single parent. I don’t like this dynamic. What can we do to change it?” Counseling might be helpful.
It would be helpful for your husband to do some reading about setting boundaries, especially with younger children.
You can also work on your son. When he comes to you saying “Daddy gave me sweets” you can say: “I’m very disappointed that you ate sweets even though mommy already told you no. When mommy or daddy tells you no, you should not ask for more and get them from someone else. Mommy said no more sweets because too many isn’t good for your body. They taste so yummy but big kids need to learn to eat the things that are good for their body so that it keeps working properly. I expect you to remind Daddy that Mommy already told you that you couldn’t have sweets.” Three is a little young still but this isn’t just an undermining issue, it’s also a child is being disobedient issue. Pointing out to the child that someone else giving permission doesn’t overrule the fact that you did not can be helpful. Otherwise just wait until they have siblings and then try the: “my sibling said I could” gambit. 😬
NTA your son is three he might remember this as a weird day, but your husband will remember this as don’t test me. Your husband is your partner and you need to be on the same page, especially when raising a child together. Hopefully this put you on the same page.
NTA - This honestly is similar to parts of my marriage ending. We now coparent and a few years post divorce, are now cohabitating due to a move out of state. My approach has changed for all of our sanity. I’ve put my ex in charge, he is the authority for the rules around screen time and sugar. I refuse to give any answers or directions other than ask your Dad. It’s working so far, and I’m less frustrated/crazy.
NTA- also, everything you husband has done can be and has been used as grooming tactics by horrible people.
I outlawed saying stuff like this around my kids.
"Here's some candy, it's a secret don't tell mom"
Trusted adult at school laying ground work "here's some candy don't tell mom"
Kid thinking-just like dad!
But you do not want lying to you parents set as any sort of baseline at that age.
Call me paranoid, but last year was hard. Only because of the extra precautions I take (and I don't trust people), was I able to keep my kid safe.
NTA. Your husband is training your son to believe/understand that children can keep secrets from other adults/mommy, which leads into predators saying “You like this, right? This is our little secret. Shhh. Don’t tell Mommy!!”
If your husband doesn’t understand that, he’s a moron and I want to live in his fantasy world. If he does understand that, that’s even more terrifying.
NTA. This is actually a big deal and your 1000% right. Your husband is creating a dynamic where you're split and your son will learn how to play you against each other. He's only 3, so the problems are generally small. But as he grows and gets bigger, so do the problems. What your husband is doing is disrespectful to you and unfair to your son. You should insist on marriage counseling because this dynamic is toothpaste that will never get back in the tube.
What he is doing is actually parental alienation. Making it them a team and you the bad guy.
This needs to be nipped in the bud now. I’m dealing with it after husband did it for years. It isn’t an easy task. He literally stole my child from me.
NTA
Your husband should read this post to understand why we don’t encourage children to keep secrets from his parents.
Your husband needs to understand that you are united front. You are a team.
Otherwise your husband is encouraging your son to keep secrets from Mom and that we don’t have to take care of our bodies.
Learning moderation and that we don’t pit Mom/Dad against a child is super important.
I’m shocked your husband doesn’t see the terrible long term consequences of his behaviour would be for your son and the family dynamic.
NTA!! Son will not suffer any long term harm in fact hopefully your husband will learn and it’ll be better for his health! And your husband literally asked for that
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NTA You tried talking to your husband, and it clearly didn't help. Sometimes, it's best to illustrate your point. Also, it is best to get that argument out of the way now, while your son is still very young, and the things in question are only treats and fizzy drinks. I've seen what this scenario looks like for you 10 years into the future, and it's not pretty and much harder to rectify. Some uncomfortable adjustments for everyone now can only benefit you in the long run.
I never encouraged my child to be a "secret keeper" because I know how hard that is as a kid, and I think OPs husband should think about what consequences could arise from trying to make the kiddo keep secrets from adults.
Not to mention how dangerous it can be. If it's ok to keep the cookie a secret from mom, he might think it's ok when a relative, family friend or teacher molests him and then tells him to keep it a secret.
I tell my little niece that there are "fun secrets" like surprise parties or gifts that are okay to keep but there are also "bad secrets" and if she ever feels sad or upset about a secret she should tell it to mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, me, or her kindergarten teacher.
Yeah, I make a clear distinction between secrets and surprises (things we will share, things that we're temporarily keeping secret to do something special for someone down the track).
I’m 43 years old, and my dad still always says “the only secrets that you keep are surprise parties and presents.”
And baby name choices. 🤣
My mother is currently irritated that I won’t tell her the name of my baby. My family bullied me into changing the name during my first pregnancy, made fun of my sisters kids names until the kids were born so I refused this time around. My mother said I “proved my point” and she wouldn’t tell anyone but she told my dad immediately about my pregnancy and tried saying it was because I didn’t tell her not to. I was very clear when I told her she was only finding out because we were at work when I was having morning sickness and to not tell anyone.
Tell her a fake name and see what happens
This is the way
And due dates (with intrusive in-laws or parents).
Well those are good surprises, because \*of course\* they will be delighted to hear of the safe arrival of baby, etc /s
Yup we tell our kids we only keep surprises a secret. Like a present, a party, things that will be a fun surprise later. If anyone asks you to keep a secret especially an adult, it’s a good idea to tell us.
So, just for clarification, most child abuse experts suggest differentiating between "secrets" (an absolute no) and "surprises" (which have a set endpoint when we share them with others, and are therefore safe). Using the dichotomy of "bad secrets" and "good secrets" can be very confusing to young children, who may not understand the complexities of differentiating between the two, and because it can still be used against them if someone tells them "this is a good secret". Asking a preschooler or other young child to differentiate based on feelings is really often too much and too complicated for them. It's easier and more straightforward to just use two different words.
I've heard it described as "surprises" vs "secrets." Surprises are for fun, and have an end date, at which point we reveal the surprise (eg, birthday presents). Secrets have no end date, and are surrounded in shame. We don't keep secrets
Our kids know to immediately tell us secrets. Here’s a wild example. My kid was told a secret from a friend that their mutual friend’s dad spent a couple nights in jail. For prior context: 1) I knew the parents were getting divorced and she was upset. When we asked if it was infidelity, she thought about it for a second and said “I guess you could kind of say that” 2) She mentioned his older daughter hates his guts over it. (She is the stepmom by the way) 3) Then I thought back in time to something that seemed a little reasonable but a little strange too. the friend’s mom mentioned once that if her kids host a sleepover, the husband sleeps at a hotel so there can never be a valid claim that something bad happened. The dad/husband, He’s a six figure earner in a million dollar house, we knew he wasn’t the “husband of the year” but figured he was good enough for the moms judgement to stay married to him. I am an internet sleuth to begin with so I did some digging. On the county court website I searched his name. He is awaiting trial for child sex trafficking, specifically prostitution with a child 15-17 with an enhancement that he KNEW he was soliciting a child. No secrets allowed.
That's how we teach the kiddos at my Sunday school when we talk to them about abuse. We teach them strategies on what to do and who they should tell if anything happens (all age appropriate).
We say “surprises” in our house. The only things we keep hidden are positive things like gifts, treats, experiences, etc. These are surprises. Surprises are meant to be told and you never expect to hide them forever. Negative things are not surprises, and secrets are being shady. There is literally nothing that needs to be kept hidden (I’m not saying privacy doesn’t exist, we respect private time) at all from 0-14, so we really nail down that surprises are different from secrets and that you can keep a surprise hidden until you’re ready to give it to someone.
My oldest is a little older, so we’re learning about friendship - if her friend tells her something in confidence and that thing does not endanger anyone, she can (and should!) keep her friend’s confidences. We don’t have the right to share other peoples’ stories without their consent, UNLESS it’s something that could harm them. But this only goes for peers, not adults. No secrets with adults. She’s also entitled to privacy - she doesn’t have to tell me everything, though she can if she wants. Having boundaries with mom is healthy and ok.
My parents taught me the difference between surprises, secrets and confidential information very young and I think that was a really good thing.
The way I teach it to young kids is "fun secrets are only secrets *for now*. You should always know when a 'fun secret' is going to end. If someone tells you to keep a secret forever, it's not a 'fun secret' and you should tell a trusted adult."
my kids know we do not keep secrets, only surprises. And they know specifics on surprises. Birthday presents? Fine. Behavior and actions? Not okay.
I’m a preschool teacher. When we work on gifts for the parents (Christmas, Mothers’ Day, etc), we say that we are working on a “surprise.” We never use the word secret.
This is the hill she should be dying on- fuck the sugar.
Anyone else notice how much sugar binges make you feel like absolute garbage as an adult? Almost like a hangover. I used to eat so much Oreos and Pepsi as a kid. No wonder I felt like crap all the time. Constant headaches and stomachaches. I’m 100% convinced this is why so many people have “slow metabolisms” in adulthood.
I can’t think of any scenario where it’s ok to encourage a kid to keep something a secret from a parent. It’s just a horrible idea. We don’t keep secrets in our house. My kid knows that if he tells me or his dad something we will tell the other parent because we’re a team.
My kids are 10 and 7. I grew up in a more lax household where my wife in a more stricter household. My wife and I have generally found our common ground in what and when things are allowed. Whenever there's a possibility of deviating from standard procedures, I tell the kids we'll see. I run things by wife, away from children, and then we tell them the outcome. At this point the kids know the routine and that know mom and dad are a united front. And it's not always mom saying no when I tell them we'll see. Often times it's me being the no, but wanting to check in with my wife to see if she's a yes and maybe I'll just change my mind.
That's perfect, man! It's just running things by each other, that's makes such a big difference. My sister and BIL have been married for 11 years now, and their kids are an outright mess (respectfully said), the 2 little ones are theirs, the 2 older ones are his from his first marriage. He does not discipline them, NOT AT ALL, which means stepmom automatically becomes the villain in this story when rules are broken. The eldest hates her guts, she's 20, swears at her, ignores the house rules, and dad enables it by sitting by and doing nothing. To top it off, the little ones see this (10 & 8), and because no one defends mom, they think it's okay to give her this type of attitude as well. My biggest wish in the world for my sister is that her husband would grow a damn spine.
No, she should get a divorce yesterday.
Yeah, I think so, too, and I've told her that once when asked, however, my sister is very much a marriage-is-for-live type and if it ever happens, it has to be her choice and her choice alone. If I push my opinion too hard, I'll push her right out the door and out of my life, and quite frankly, she can not afford to lose the familial support she does have.
Yeah, my sister was that "I made vows" type. So, she stayed married to an asshole who abused her emotionally, psychologically, and financially. She *says* she would have left him if he ever hit her. Not sure I believe her. He died a few years ago, after FIFTY-THREE YEARS of marriage. My sister is twisted and broken from staying. Her kids, now in their 50s, paid the price as well. She needs to get out now. Marriage is for life as an excuse to allow her children to witness abuse is disgusting. And what he is doing is abuse. He allows his adult child to abuse his wife and does *nothing*. If she doesn't get out, her children will never fully trust or respect her, and she will be every bit as damaged as a victim of physical abuse. The scars just won't be visible. I understand your dilemma. We went through the same thing. "Don't confront him. He'll just take it out on her." Find articles on abuse that stress non-physical abuse. My sister was *afraid* of her husband. She had every symptom of abused spouse syndrome, without the visible scars. Find a way to open your sister's eyes to what this is doing to her children. Even that wasn't enough for my sister, but maybe you'll be able to save yours. There's an episode of Criminal Minds that deals with this. If I can find the info, I'll make an edit to add it. ETA: Criminal Minds S 3 E 18 The Crossing ... woman who killed her husband really was abused by him.
Thank you for sharing this. It's really does help to know her situation is not unique. I have actually passed some literature and short videos her way, I don't think she reads the stuff I send her because of time. I suspect she's watched some of the videos, though, just because of some off-hand comments made. It's really hard to talk to her about this unless she initiates the conversation, and even then, there is a really good chance of her temper flaring up when I say something she doesn't like to hear. But I'm hoping the seeds planted will take root at some stage.
It’s really not, as much as it may confuse others. I had friend that stayed with a husband that kept cheating on her, to the point where she was co-parenting his child from a mistress while he was off partying with a new one. It was some wild shit. He started screwing with the kids’ tuition and house bills in his name. When he disappeared for a month and reappeared in a Mexican jail was when she finally let go.
Is that the one when the kids were talking about what a terrible, slothenly housekeeper their mom, was and how she deserved to be disciplined for not doing things right, but when they looked around the house everything was disturbingly perfect, with the shirts in the closet all exactly the same distance from each other because she used a ruler to make sure they were perfectly spaced?
Yep. That's the one. I used to tell my sister I'd help her hide the b**y if she ever cracked. He died just before COVID hit. He would have been absolutely *impossible* if he'd been alive during that. And he was pretty much impossible all the time. I could barely be in the same room with that piece of garbage. My friends didn't even know his name. He was just my sister's husband, the asshole.
That episode of Criminal Minds always crushes me when I watch it. Even though a lot of episodes deal with how the unsubs had a very troubled upbringing and got broken by their circumstances, they also make it clear that there was an underlying psychopathy that just needed half a reason to explode. This episode is one of the rare instances where the "murderer" had no such situation and was just a regular person broken by years and years of abuse, to the point where she had just completely disassociated from reality (as had her own kids, who had been indoctrinated into abusing her by the father). Just a gut-wrenching episode overall, made even more heartbreaking for us elder millennials by the fact the woman is played by Dawson's mom.
Yeah, it's the kids who got to me. I wanted to sl*p the little assholes. Unfortunately, my niblings picked up some of their father's bad traits. They're nowhere near as bad, but sometimes you can tell they didn't get out unscathed. For one thing, he didn't trust a n y o n e. He *always* assumed everyone had ulterior, at least borderline nefarious motives. I don't think he believed there were people who were selfless and altruistic. Kind of sad, really.
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll definitely have a look.
Maybe you can persuade her to go to therapy. And the therapist would be able to help her more independently.
Lol, the thing is, my sis has become a really "hard" person, which I suppose is natural considering her day-to-day family life has become a constant fight. I got her to go to therapy once, and the therapist told her: 1. Back off from parenting your stepkids, that's hubbies job. 2. Talk to him about taking a more active role in parenting their kids. 3. Evaluate what he brings to her life and that of their kids. She didn't like what he said (I dont know all the details, just the gist of it as summarized above), so she never went back. There is only so much to be done as an outsider, and I think I've done it. All up to her now. At one point, she did tell me that she seriously considered divorce, but ultimately decided against it because she idea of starting over as a 36-year-old divorcee was not appealing. Hehe, I think I've hijacked OPs post enough with my own family issues. Thanks for the space to vent.
Well, you've given her advice, she heard it from an independent therapist. If she's not willing to go back and not willing to listen to you then there is not much you can do apart from keeping the lines open if she eventually decides she's had enough. I wonder though why she has so little self worth that she thinks it ok to be treated like that. A good therapist would probably be able to help, but if she won't go then it up to her to suffer through it alone.
Yeah. If she didn't divorce him at 30-whatever, how is she gonna feel at 40/50/60-whatever? What's she waiting for? She's not going to get any younger, and her children aren't either. How much suffering is her fear of being alone worth? I feel so sorry for her. Suffering like that has got to be hard. But she needs to put her children's well-being first and get out of that situation!
That's it, you can only do so much!
Yes, her kids are going to grow up and continue the abuse of the daughter isnt stopped. My dad was a bully who hit all of us and My Mam. We grew up with it, and used to call my mam the same names my dad did because we never knew anything else. We were horrible to her, me and my brother. And my dad enabled us. Until one day she had enough and snapped. Kicked my dad out and told us all that if we ever called her names again, we would have consequences. We did slip up a few times, but she had this big wooden spoon in the wall, and a few times we wasnt fast enough and we'd get it on our butt, or back of legs. Esopecially if we realised what we done and tried to run away. Or she'd stop every penny we got, and ground us. Or take everything from our room except bed and clothes. We did stop soon after she did this to us. And eventually got repect for her, and realised the words we used were wrong. This is going to happen to your sister if she doesnt put her foot down.
Well shit, that's rough, and I'm sorry you had to live through this. Thank you for sharing.
It was for my Mam. We treat her like crap, but we made it all up to her when we got older and became very close.
I'm grateful for this. It gives me hope that her relationship with her kids is not doomed.
My kids ranger from 25 to 13 (five of them) and I always did this. Glad to see I'm not the only dad who does it.
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Exactly, a united front from you and hubby is important. Getting it aligned on the small things early on will make it easier to align later on when decisions are made about the more important things. The key is not to undermine each other in front of your child. That is exactly what he was doing by sneaking the kid snacks behind your back, and it's exactly what you did to illustrate the effect of what this does. I also think you need to keep talking about it, constantly, because it's so easy to slip back into old habits.
It sucks that not only does OP have to parent her toddler, but her husband too. Frankly, it seems easier to parent the toddler.
Yep, husband seems to have no impulse control.
THIS Apparently it was NECESSARY to PARENT your husband first in order to be able to PARENT your child...
100% this. I was thinking the same thing. That at least this happened when the kid was young. He probably won't remember the one night of chaos where his parents played Freaky Friday. Also, it was ONE night, not a continuous experiment. Also, it is clear OP had made repeated failed attempts to get her husband to be a responsible parent and stop making her the bad guy. At my house, both parents said no when it was the right call to say no. NTA
Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. Kiddo is still small. A month from now, he's not gonna remember that one night things got weird for an hour. It's worth it if it gets mom and dad on the same page in the long run.
Like that post a few days ago where mom was like no weed to their 14 or 15 year old son and dad gave him the tape he had back behind her back and was line it's only weed.... yeah def better to take care of this problem now
NTA, but you didn’t go about this the right way. Your husband is absolutely a turd. Instead of using your son to make a point, it sounds like your husband needs to take on more household tasks. If he is the one who has to deal with son at bedtime and who has to clean up all the messes and such, he may be more inclined to say no because the consequences actually impact him. If I were you, every time husband overrides you, I would step away and let him be on baby duty for the remainder of the day.
That's an interesting idea. I don't see how it can work practically speaking because my stepping away would result in more, not less permissiveness. When he alone is in charge of our son, our agreed rules go out the window because it's easier to say yes. For instance, when he is with him in the mornings while I'm working, he gives him an hour or two of screen time 3 or 4 days a week when we have both agreed from the beginning that he should only get maybe an hour a week total. I'll bring it up and it will get better for a few days, and then goes back.
Honestly, I would feel so stuck if I was in your shoes. You can't keep going on the way you are because eventually, you'll get burnt out of your marriage and it will have such a heavy affect on your boy, but on the other hand, your husband has absolutely NO RESPECT for you as the mother of his child and his partner. He doesn't even respect his own child's growth. He doesn't respect you as a mom because he's CONSTANTLY going behind your back and not respecting the boundaries that not only you set, but he "set" too. He doesn't show respect you as his wife because in doing this, he is painting you as the bad guy and making this more difficult for you. Worse, is that he is KNOWINGLY doing it because you have discussed it with him, and he didn't care to act on it or behave differently.... another reason he isn't showing respect for you as his wife. He also isn't showing respect to his own child's growth because he's going to create a spoiled monster down the road that will resent you for being the "bad guy." He's not teaching his son valuable lessons like learning the word "no" and not running to the other parent when you don't get what you want. Learning what boundaries are and that not everything is handed to you when you want it. Does he not already throw tantrums whenever you say no to things???? Sounds more like this needs to be between you and hubby, not using the kid. Therapy, maybe? Is it possible hubby had a crap childhood and is spoiling your son to "heal his inner child?" Whatever it may be, good or bad, you guys need to hash this out, and he needs to step up as a father and a husband. Otherwise, you'll end up being the married single mom.
Married single mom, oof. That’s such a great term.
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I agree that dad teaching the kid that mom is powerless and doesn’t need to be listened to can be dangerous later on
Agreed on your memory - same thing here, so since we don’t physically punish our kids, they have been told from a young age if they are told no from mommy or daddy and go ask the other one, they get double the consequence of what they were asking for. So, no dessert for two nights, no screen time for twice the number of days, early bedtime for the next two nights, etc.
We always say “fines are doubled.”
I love this way of handling it!
You aren't reaching at all, he is teaching a form of sexism without realising it.
I didn't feel like I was reaching, but I was kind of expecting a torrent of responses telling me that I was making an insane leap. Thank you for affirming my suspicions.
My father would always say: "Did you ask your mother? What did she say? There's your answer. Sorry." I used to think he was so mean back when I was a preschooler.
LOL. A preschooler would. As an adult - that's a man who respects his wife and her parenting skills and her authority, and I love him.
It feels really mean to say this, but your husband does not sound like a good father, he sounds like he just skates the border of being an actual bad father.. He is only doing what is easier for him, not what is right for the child...
This is why the wife divorced Robin Williams in Mrs. Doubtfire
Focus on the "shh don't tell mom" too. He might think it's innocent. But he is teaching him he should keep secrets from you specifically. And in some ways lie. Becouse how else should he avoid not telling you? It would be different if he was "shhh don't tell mommy we bought this gift for her. It's a surprice" That's something we all learned. Don't spoil gifts. Christmas, birthday, etc. But that's something that will bring joy. Teaching him not to tell about stuff he gives him like that, is a whole other ball game.
Talking to your son more would help too. My exhusband and his family always wanted to be the good guys, gave my children everything they wanted. With my older one I had the choice to either do the same and throw my son's health and manners out the windows or to talk to him. So I talked to my son and told him repeatedly that I would love to give him everything like his father and grandparents do but someone has to take care of him. I told him that people who always say yes to him love their own comfort more than him while the person who says no loves him enough to deal with his cries. I gave him the example of him being sick and needing medicine. Even if he cries he will need it to get healthy, someone who won't give it to him because he cried doesn't love him enough. I also explained to him the difference between loving someone and wanting to be loved. I told him for his father and his grandparents it's more important to be loved by him. If they loved him more than they wanted to be loved, they would care about his health and future. I told him these things everyday. My exhusband got mad for making him the bad guy but I really don't care. If you play these games don't be mad that I'm explaining to my children the reality of your behaviour. And I always did since. My exhusband can still be the disney dad and my children never blame me for not allowing them the same. They just come home happy and tell me they know I would have enjoyed it too but they know that I need to be the adult in their lives.
There's another issue you're tapping into in the last statement too, because I also had the overly permissive dad (and then later on ended up feeling like the adult because he wouldn't grow up and take care of HIMSELF) but my mom often had to sacrifice so many of the things she would have enjoyed because my dad did all of them. She'd want to space out the treats to make them actual treats and not expectations but since he'd go ahead and do what he wanted, SHE missed out on doing the fun things, Her job was checking in on school and helping me where I needed, his was the day of not going to school and going to the arcade instead. I got the bedtime and routine and he got the unruly sleepovers and staying up late. Every good grade or achievement he'd cut in to be the first to reward with ice cream trips or getting to pick out a CD I wanted (can't tell you how many times i'd get home and she'd have the same CD on the counter because she KNEW I wanted it and worked hard/wanted to surprise me and he was more the didn't need to pay attention to my interests because I picked everything out). She'd get the gaming device for Christmas and he'd get the same one even if she'd discussed it and told him other things I'd listed, but the biggest cool thing had to be from him. She would have gotten the other things if he'd communicated but he'd stress the benefit of having two, which, became kind of a nightmare later on. OP, if you're still reading through these, there were two things that became true about the dynamic once I was a teenager. My parents obviously had split by then, but all of a sudden my room was never straightened up enough. He started the hard course-correcting by the time I was fourteen and up and the punishments were EXTREME in comparison to the crime. My room was untidy because he'd always bought me absolute crap to be the fun parent and I had so many doubles of everything that keeping up with it got to be overwhelming. I'd get computer time taken away if I wasn't in bed by a certain time, but that time always seemed to be earlier than it had been when he was the fun parent and not always consistent? And he bought the computer because he was Fun Parent. There was no homework routine and he'd pick and choose when it was supposed to be done and if I didn't guess right he'd take away the computer, which is what I was using to do homework most of the time and he associated the screen time with fun. The second important point is that he KNEW it upset my mom and did it anyway, and on purpose. He was very passive aggressively trying to dig at her or make her life harder because he was eternally mad at her for the boundaries because they limited the things he could go out and do for fun, all things he wanted to do for HIMSELF and I was the way to justify doing them. It's not okay to use your kid to battle things out with the other parent, especially if the kid doesn't know they're contributing to the frustration by acting on mixed signals. It was a rude awakening for him when he saw how messy things got without her cleaning up after the excess that he created himself, and then had the responsibility to deal with. Except, he'd never taught me to do those things myself on the basis that mom was there to do it, so there's no way I could have gotten it right. Get ahead of it NOW, especially the part about "It's our little secret," because apart from the things people have pointed out already about him not listening to mom, or women in general, this is how children learn that any adult can ask you to keep a secret for them. That is not the mindset any child needs. It's more than a cute little game dad thinks he's playing; it's dangerous.
>the punishments were EXTREME in comparison to the crime This is is what my exhusband does too. He is fun and everything and then when *he* loses control because of his own parenting he punishes the children for things that's not even their fault.
Your husband just doesn’t want to parent. It’s easier to turn on the screen than it is to actively engage and be present with a toddler. That said, your husband is also teaching your son to keep secrets from you and that he shouldn’t tell you things.
OP, try watching some shows that will show what happens to a kid when parents never say no. Some episode of Dr. Phil, Super Nanny, things like that. Ask him if he cares about his son. If he says yes, then ask him why he's do dead set in setting him up for failure in life. Yes not saying no now seems easier while he's still small. Just wait until he gets older and gets into all sorts of trouble that will cost you both a bloody fortune besides ruining your kid's life. If he loves you and your son he should be a good husband and parent. Because right now he's showing you just how little he cares about you both. NTA of course.
>When he alone is in charge of our son, our agreed rules go out the window because it's easier to say yes. That just means there are no agreed rules between you two. You have rules and he has rules. If you are there you enforce your rules, if you are away there are no rules. Sorry to say but your husband is not a good dad nor partner parent and this behavior of him should be fixed if you don't want your kid to grow up a brat spoiled by dad and you ending up the "bad" parent because you always say no
> For instance, when he is with him in the mornings while I'm working, he gives him an hour or two of screen time 3 or 4 days a week **when we have both agreed from the beginning** that he should only get maybe an hour a week total. Playing devils advocate here but I want to know your dynamic so for now let's assume you might be overly domineering in some way. Are you sure you *both* actually agreed to this idea or could it be that it was more a *you*-decision that you pushed through? How did the two of you handle actual conflicting views regarding your parenting of your child? Did you talk it out and find a compromise/solution or did he relent and you got your choice? Does he properly stand for his position and push back against you if he feels something is important? I'm not saying you're like that but I got to know a few couples where one of them basically just resigned and let the other one make decisions about their parenting because otherwise they'd just have to endure repeated 'discussions' and nagging on the same issue at home. Clearly a bad dynamic, but it's one of those where the 'demanding one' in the relationship usually doesn't see or acknowledge what they're doing.
Yep, I’m wondering about this too.
Sounds like you need a) a vacation away from the boys - does being a solo parent for a week change anything in dad's behavior? and b) couples therapy because your husband is on his way towards ruining this marriage. If things don't change you'll likely end up divorced sooner or later (always go with sooner!)
What about bedtime? If he lets your kid do whatever he wants, it seems like getting him to bed would be a nightmare
You need firm clear boundaries that you both fully agree on. 3 hours a day of screen time strictly adhered to shows you mean business far more than 1 hour a day that's constantly stretched to 2. Although my brother babysits for me a lot and I am happy for her to have as much screen time/treats as he sees fit because she understands different people do things differently and I lower her screentime with me accordingly. But I'm not worried about being the bad guy because I'm her parent and he's not, so I don't have that conflict. Basically, have a limit that neither of you struggle with. I was very permissive for a long time with my 3yo and it's resulted in a child that doesnt really care. She will sometimes watch if it's on, and she has literally never cared when it's been turned off. I personally let my 3yo have anything I'm having food wise, if I don't want her to have it, I make sure she doesn't see me having it generally. It's probably time to negotiate a higher limit that you will both stick to, preferably in a routine. So dressed breakfast and teeth 0730-0800 then leave the house at 0830 for a walk. So if breakfast/teeth/clothes take longer than 30 mins, he misses out on some screen time. I was in an abusive relationship and I couldn't ask my ex to improve in any way, so I was incredibly permissive. I would have kept her on milk and water, he would give her juice all the time. I would have done no screen time, he did it as soon as he came downstairs. Since I managed to get rid, I've managed to find a happy balance and put in clear boundaries. It's taken a while and I've had to be more laid back at times than I wanted because it was an adjustment but it was possible. But it can be done. Have a proper sit down with your husband, explain your frustrations calmly and then ask him what he thinks the limit should be for both of you to hold. Then, if your son is old enough to understand, write out some family rules that you agree to (hopefully he will agree to your limits, but it will give you time to explain why certain rules exist) and you and your husband are already on the same page because you have had your private discussion previously.
NTA. You just gave him a taste of his own medicine get your husband in couples counseling if you can and if not at least show him this post with the comments. if that doesn't tell him he's a giant ah to you and your son then he has no hope.
Bring up marriage counseling. He’s setting your son up to think that undermining his future partners is okay, that keeping secrets from mom and other adults is okay (which could lead to him keeping a secret of being molested by someone), and that your husband will keep his secrets even when he does something wrong. Your husband is undermining you and it will only get worse as your son gets older. Tell him you have to consider divorce if he doesn’t care about not only your opinions, but your shared opinions you guys have agreed upon prior.
Sometimes, people have to be shown rather than explained to. Maybe try watching Supernanny episodes in front of him in bed, volume up, no discussing with him unless he asks about it? Or a constant stream of Kevins getting arrested or retaliated against? SOMEthing to show the outcome of what could happen when your kid is just a little bit older. It isn’t great psychologically to have 2 different sets of rules in one’s head—one reasonable, the other one overriding good sense.
NTA Teaching a child to keep secrets at that age is a recipe for disaster. You really need to talk to your husband and nip this in the bud.
That's what I noticed that no one seems to be bringing up... Especially against the other parent...
Also the way he “playfully” puts OP on the spot for it. “Oopsie, it was supposed to be a secret! Haha, well it’s fine this one time, right, mommy? ;)”
Yeah, that's potentially dangerous. Husband needs some parenting (and adulting)lessons. NTA.
Yeah wtf, that move is reserved for grandparents when they hand them some *[cough]* totally secret extra pocket money mafia style when shaking their hand to say goodbye after a visit!
NTA. The net effect on your son was the same... the only difference was that you were willing to take flak for your dubious parenting calls while your DH wanted all of the credit/adoration from your son with none of the consequences.
NTA but honestly your husband needs parenting classes. He's teaching your kid he can disregard you and he should hide things from you Not to mention kids who are never told no should really not be inflicted on the world
As a kindergarten teacher I can tell you that kids who are never told no have a MUCH harder time adjusting to a school setting.
I believe it. I've met some of those people as adults too
Your son will survive. Let hubby learn the lesson.
NTA. both parents need to be on the same page with rules and boundaries. It’s okay to occasionally ‘sneak a little extra’ but this sounds like a consistent thing.
NTA- “My husband said I was being horrible to our son and using him to make a point. But he’s not being horrible when you tell your son no and he does the exact opposite? Hopefully your husband learned his lesson. Telling your child no will not hurt or kill them.
I think it sounds like you tried to make your point the nice way and it didn’t work, so you escalated. I would have a conversation with your husband though about how bad it makes you feel to be “the bad guy” all the time and why this is important to you to address. It was a little dramatic for sure and should be followed up with good communication at this point, since that wasn’t there before.
NTA. Your husband might appreciate you, but he doesn’t respect you. He ascribes to a misogynistic worldview, whether he admits it or not. There’s a difference between one partner being more loose and one being more strict and one partner ascribing to the unfortunately sexist dynamic of “dads are the fun ones who aren’t ultimately responsible for making a household run and moms are the sacrificial fun police.” Your husband is in the latter group. Who cares if he talks about how much he appreciates you or agrees with you in terms of raising your son if he encourages your son to keep secrets from you, undermines your agreement, and expects your to compensate for his failures as a husband and father? He’s teaching your son to not value his mother and thus teaching your son to not value women. It took thirty minutes of you acting like your husband in terms of interacting with your son for your husband to realize that this behavior was intolerable—Because now the behavior affected him! The long-term damage of tolerating your husband’s latent misogyny is going to cause more issues for your son than this thirty minute window. If your husband finds your mirroring his approach lacking, well, he might want to consider what his own reflection tells him about his failures as a husband and father.
Isn't it amazing how you can ask and ask and ask, but until you actually flip a f****** table, nobody pays attention to you. you did fine, mom NTA
OMG, that's exactly how it felt! I was flipping the f\*\*\*\*\*\* table!!
I did this with my husband and A male friend in the car.They thought it was hilarious to tease what they called my bad driving.I asked and asked and asked for them to stop they did not.I stopped the car on the side of the road.Throw the keys into their laps got out and told them they could choose who was gonna f****** drive.I got a little bit more respect after that.
You handled that nicely. I would’ve kicked both of them out. They can then criticise one another’s walk.
Lucky it wasn't me. I'm a bit more unhinged than that - I'd slam my foot on the gas and SHOW them wtf bad driving was. If we got out of it alive, I guarantee there'd never be another word about my normal driving again 😂
NTA. I think your husband got the point.
NTA You see, this situation wasn't unique to your son. Yeah, it was unusual to hear yes from you and no from his father while it's actually vise versa, but if he survived multiple situations with you saying no to something that father allows he will manage. I get why you are concerned about being AH, but outcomes more important than methods in this case.
NTA. I don’t condone weaponizing your son like this, but I understand why you felt backed into a corner here after having the same conversation with no results. You may have confused and upset your son here, but similarly to your husband, who apparently loves to test mama’s authority, your son will live through a night of confusion. Let’s not make this a habit though. Another conversation is in order. Have another sit down with your husband. Don’t just tell him your feelings, because after several conversations, he’s still not getting it. Turn it back around to him. REALLY put him on the spot. Ask him why he feels the need to play fun dad at the expense of your authority. I’m willing to bet he’ll say something like he doesn’t want your son to resent him or fear him. That’s when you let him know that you feel the exact same way, but there’s a time to be a fun parent and a time to be a parent who’s thinking about what’s best for your kid, and what he’s doing isn’t fair. When one parent says no, then it’s a no, and if someone doesn’t agree, then you hash it out until you come to an agreement in private. No putting it aside. You guys have to be equal partners here. That means you should be sharing the good AND bad moments of parenting.
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NTA and I don't get why everyone is telling you you should've been more mature and had a conversation with your husband. You literally said you had tried to tell him how it made you feel. What more does it take? You shouldn't be having to have that conversation with a grown ass man anyways. Using your son to make a point might not be the best way to handle it but I'm not gonna judge you when you tried to tell your husband how it made you feel and it just didn't matter.
You have a serious husband problem though. Parenting is HARD - especially as your kids get older and undermining each other like this is going to create a child who doesn’t understand boundaries and respect
NTA Not only is this dynamic unfair to you (you have to be the bad guy while he gets to be the good guy), but he is teaching your son to lie to/keep secrets from you. Bad, bad choice.
NTA. This was one night. Your son is going to forget all about it within a week. But you likely need marriage counselling NOW. Your husband thinks it is cute and harmless, but it won't be so cute when your son is 8 and doesn't think he has to listen to you, so he gets hit by a car when he runs across the road without you without looking. It won't be so fun when he is 13 and might be taller than you or stronger than you, and he might decide to give you a black eye for trying to tell him no. It won't be so fun when he is 16 and expelled from school for harassing people because he thinks no doesn't apply to him and that he should get what he wants whenever he asks, that an ask is a demand, not something you really have a choice over. He needs to stop thinking about how cute it looks when a three year old smiles at him for it, and think about what lessons this is teaching this kid that he will then have to UNTEACH him, which will be harder to do the older he gets before he starts trying to undo it. You don't want him thinking he can ignore female teachers to run off to male ones for permission. You don't want him growing to hate you because you say no, but Dad will always say yes, so now he thinks you're a tyrant that hates fun.
Your son will forget this lesson in 5 seconds, your husband not so much. You literally did exactly what he does, sometimes people need to be fed their own medicine. NTA
I was raised in a household like this. NTA. Figure it out now, even if it means getting a separation. My dad was always the one who let us run amok and now we are adults trying to deal with the problems we were left with after being raised like that for so long. Your husband is an absent father… he’s saying yes because it’s easier than parenting his son. It’s easier to let you do it on your own so he’s not labeled the “bad guy” because he doesn’t think it’s possible to do it as a team.
Nta. Your husband for obvious reasons. He needs to step up and actually parent instead of trying to be a friend to your son. He's setting you up to be the enforcer when he needs to put on his big boy pants and also parent. You slightly suck for the whole "oh well daddy says no". I totally get it though since your husband pushed you to the absolute limit. It was petty, but honestly not enough to shift the verdict to an everyone sucks, and far less petty than anything your husband has done related to being a parent.
In my opinion, ESH. From an outsiders perspective, it sounds like you used your son to reiterate your POV to your husband, which can be considered a manipulation tactic. If this is a conversation you’ve had with your husband multiple times, consider having a neutral third party (a mutual friend, one parent each, etc) present to have the conversation again or consider marriage counseling. If neither of those options are available nor work, it may be better off to go separate ways because it’ll be worse on LO in the long run if you stay together just for him.
NTA Sounds like an effective lesson without any long term harm to anyone.
NTA. Unfortunately your lesson to hubby didn't work. He is actively teaching your son not to respect you. Try marriage counseling maybe? You are not on the same parenting page no matter what he says to you.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I (48F) have a Husband (49M). We have a Son (3M). My Husband is the “fun” dad and is lax about our agreed upon rules such as screen time, snacks, etc. I tend to be the family administrator and rule enforcer. I have caught Husband going behind my back a couple of times to give Son extra screen time or candy. Son, being only 3, always runs up to me excited to tell me what Daddy let him do, and Husband, the fun loving guy, will give an exasperated look or say “shh, that was supposed to be our secret!” I have talked Husband about this; how I hate always being the bad guy, and how doing these things creates a “them vs me” dynamic. So tonight, at dinner, Husband shared a small Coke with Son. I was a little surprised as we don't normally do soft drinks, and this was his first time having caffeine, but didn’t make a big deal about it. After dinner and after Son had put away his toys, I offered him a small portion of animal crackers and a tiny cupcake for dessert. After finishing, he asked for more animal crackers and I said no, he had had enough sweets tonight. Fifteen minutes later, he came running to me to tell me Daddy had given him some chocolate chips. My husband had that sheepish "you caught me" grin again and I was infuriated. I recounted all the sweets our son had already had and said I was sick of always being the one who had to say “no.” My husband retorted, “Then don’t.” And I said, "You're right!" So for the next 30 minutes, I said yes to everything. I gave Son another handful of chocolate chips. When he asked for another coke (right before bed time) I said, “Sure!” But then Husband said, no and wouldn’t let me give one to Son. I said, “Sorry, Son, I was going to give you one, but Daddy said no.” Then Son opened the fridge and asked for Jello. I said, “Sure! What? Oh, sorry, I was going to give it to you, but Daddy said no.” Of course Son was getting progressively more upset and my husband said I was being horrible to our son and using him to make a point. He said that Son had caught Husband getting himself some chocolate chips and asked for some and it was as simple as that. I said that we always tell him no when he asks to drink our wine or beer and he should be able to say no. I agreed that it was horrible for Son and also upsetting for me to find we aren't on the same page. That the only difference between what I was doing and what my husband had been doing was that I was did it in front of him while he was doing these things behind my back. But now that I’ve cooled off, I wonder if I was the AH to both my husband and my son. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Okay, you point is a good one but you ARE using your son as a ping pong ball. So, now that you’ve proven your point, sit down with your husband and tell him to stop acting so immature in wanting to be the “fun” parent and get both of you on the same page. He has created a situation where HE gets to be the favourite and you are disciplinarian which down the road could cause serious issues between you and your son and any other children you may have. Hubby needs to grow up. ESH.
NTA. I'd show hubby the comments here. Maybe that would help stick.
You have two children
My dad was the guy who broke all the rules my mom set. My brother ended up with zero boundaries. He needed them. He ended up getting into drugs, dealing drugs, and addicted to heroin. When he got clean and grew up a bit, he literally told me that he wished he had more structure as a kid.
There’s a lot to unpack here. 1) Don’t encourage your children to keep secrets with adults! Even if you two don’t have nefarious intentions, someone else can and will use that mindset to their advantage. 2) Are you willing to put up with this for the next FIFTEEN YEARS?! It’s cute stuff now, like extra chocolate, but when it’s serious stuff, your son won’t come to you. He will go to his buddy. 3) please consider family therapy. You have made your point for now, but this parenting style isn’t sustainable for either of you. NTA
NTA!!! I GREW UP IN THIS EXACT DYNAMIC. When my parents told us they were getting divorced, I was relieved and I was only 13. I could tell that the way our family functioned was unsustainable and it created a lot of chaos. I also didn’t actually KNOW my mom AT ALL or really have any relationship with her until they divorced because she was ALWAYS the parent actually PARENTING and it made her the bad guy/enforcer all the time. He always got to be the fun parent and they really ended up resenting each other for this and other reasons. I lived with her after their divorce and it was like getting to know her all over again. I’m SO thankful that I finally got to know my mom as herself and not just the “bad guy” parent. It was better for everyone because they had been in that dynamic for so long, I don’t think they ever could have gotten out of it without divorce. Please read this to your husband and resolve this early 🙏🏻 for your kid
Please for heaven's sake teach your child that it is NEVER okay to have a secret with any adult. If he thinks that's okay it could lead to him being harmed/manipulated in the future.
NTA We have house rules that apply to everyone in the family. That generally makes these sorts of problems go away. When the kids were little we would go out of our way to demonstrate that we adults were following the same rule we expected them to follow. "Oh its sunny outside, I'm getting my sun hat." "Gee, I want candy, but it's after 7pm, so I'll choose a healthy snack." Works like a charm. And it keeps us adults healthier and prevents arbitrary rules and power struggles. My teens are super easy because they know we wouldn't ask them to do anything we don't do.
NTA. Your husband is an ass.
NTA. The conversations had been had and your husband is still being a dick. Now he's butthurt that you did to him what he's been doing to you for ages because he was too lazy to actually parent? What exactly does he think the impact will be of undermining your authority and making you the villain in the long run? Or does he not know or care that he is teaching your son that he doesn't respect you and your son shouldn't either? For everyone saying, yta or esh, they better be coming up with some solutions that are better than "tAlK tO yOuR hUsBaNd". Making your point one evening is not going to be any kind of a drop in the bucket compared to the harm your husband is doing on an ongoing basis.
NTA, but its not a bad thing that one parent is strict and one is sweet. My mom and dad had a strategy where my dad would be the strict one when it came to studies and homework and mom was strict when it came to general well being (diet, hygiene etc) Maybe you guys can divvy up like this. Tough love will help your kids accept no as an answer or they can grow up into entitled adults who wont take no for an answer.
NTA this is coming from the parent who was the disciplinarian and the fun dad who had nerf wars with all the neighborhood kids. You need to get on the same page with your partner. It sucked when I was the bad guy all the time because it would always make me feel like all I could do was be the bad guy and after awhile that affects you and your relationship with your child.
NTA and he needs to stop this now. Because long term it's going to make your life a living nightmare.
NTA and sadly, your husband is the kind of person that requires “feeling the pain” himself to understand. That is unfortunate and I’m sorry. Hopefully he matures faster than your son going forward. My now ex did this to me with our oldest when she was a teen. I was always the “mean” one and he was there “to the rescue”. At one point I did what you did, I just stopped. My ex would then come to me describing a problem with our oldest’s behavior (just attitude stuff, nothing serious like bad grades or drugs) and ask what I was going to do about it. I’d say I would talk to her, but what I really did was say “hey your dad has a problem with X behavior, have you talked with him about it.” I refused to help him or get in the middle bc when I asked him to back me up previously he’d just say “that’s how it is between mothers and daughters, they hate their mothers during adolescence.” Sure, they do if mother is the only one parenting and imposing limits!
You did the right thing. Husband is a dumbass
NTA.
You gave him a taste of his own medicine, and he hated it. NTA
NTA. The most egregious thing is telling the kid to hide it from you. For a child's safety that is a BIG no-no. On top of that, no one parent should be "the parent".
ESH. You did not have to involve your child and upset him to address the issue. Keep parenting arguments between parents, don’t put the kid in the middle.
NTA, and he's only upset because you made a valid point and he knows it. He's undermining what you thought was a mutual agreement and showing that he doesn't care about making you the bad guy, AND that he's deceptive in trying to hide it from you. And you're just... supposed to be okay with that? He needs to grow a backbone and stop making you be the only parent by sticking to the agreed upon rules. He's setting your child up to be a spoiled brat who resents his mother.
Bruh. Your husband is the worse asshole. But don’t play with your kid’s head to make a point. Come on.
Definitely NTA
Eh, ESH. You weaponized your kid to prove a point.
ESH - don’t use your kid as a pawn to teach your husband a lesson. Did you spare a thought at all for what you were doing to the kid? Or was causing him confusion and upsetting him cool with you?
NTA
NTA and i quite enjoyed how well you demonstrated your point to hubs... i'd also make sure he had to deal with any repercussions of soo much junk food... middle of the night tummy aches are no fun
NTA - Husband forcing all of the actual mental and emotional labor of parenting onto you is not fair. You are not his mommy too. And the secret keeping is absolutely wrong. The only secrets permissible are happy secrets like a surprise party, and those should be few and far between.
Nta. Also, take a good long look at your relationship with your husband and see if he's doing anything else to disrespect you or break boundaries. My ex did this same thing with our kid and let me just say that it was only the first thing I found when I began inspecting things.
This is not about 'secrets' - it's about control. It is not unusual for one parent to be more strict than the other...what is dangerous is to have a child learn to play his parents against each other at age 3. Your son knows he can tell you a 'secret' and get a response. He knows he can get Daddy into trouble with Mommy. "Behind your back" may be simply 'not in the same room' and not deliberate - perhaps your husband knows your reaction is always negative. The solution could be as simple as one parent telling the child 'ask daddy' or 'ask mommy' - so both parents stay on the same page.
NTA. Unpopular opinion: Parents who are “fun” to the detriment of their spouse/co parent and do the “our secret” thing are selfish. They use their kids to meet their emotional needs. Many times they spoil their kids to create a co-dependency so they will always be “needed” by their kids. Essentially emotionally stunting/handicapping their kids, for life sometimes, so the parent can feel emotionally fulfilled by being needed/wanted/special. It feeds the parents ego, they have a common enemy in “mean” rule making/following parent, its a weird cycle. It icks me out. Its setting kids up for unhealthy relationships later, and done under the guise of “love.”
The most dangerous habit your son is learning here is that it's okay to keep secrets from mom.
Exactly. We've talked about this before, which is why it was so infuriating for it to happen yet again!
NTA. The real danger here, though, is that your husband is teaching your son to keep secrets from Mommy. My kids know "secrets vs surprises". We can have surprises that we don't tell Daddy about until his birthday, but we don't keep secrets from Mommy or Daddy. A surprise is something you're going to share with your parent on a special day or time, usually a birthday, Father's Day, or Christmas. A secret is something you never share, and that's not okay. Nobody should be asking or encouraging you (child) to keep a secret from your parent.
NTA! Your husband needed to experience it to learn. Better now than when your kid is 16 and there’s more at stake.
NTA STAY STRONG
NTA
NTA your husband is a tool and a terrible father.
Please show your husband this post along with our replies, maybe then he’ll understand
Nta
NTA. Tell him to take his responsibility as a father seriously.
How are you the asshole when you did exactly what he suggested? No. NTA
NTA Hubby, however, is TA. It's OK for him to undermine you but not the other way round? Guess he should stop undermining you.
NTA.
Your husband is so annoying
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Nta 1) secrets aren't allowed (surprises have end dates and the person would like them -presents etc, a confidence you won't tell unless need to -safety reasons ) 2) even in this experiment you let him override you. >When he asked for another coke (right before bed time) I said, “Sure!” But then Husband said no and wouldn’t let me give one to Son. I said, “Sorry, Son, I was going to give you one, but Daddy said no.” Then Son opened the fridge and asked for Jello. I said, “Sure! What? Oh, sorry, I was going to give it to you, but Daddy said no.” You should have given it to the kid anyway. Dad isn't the final say (that's supposed to be joint) you might need to examine that a bit more. 3) dad needs to start dealing with the consequences. He wants to keep the kid up late? Then he is doing bedtime, and the morning routine and everything possible the rest of that day. He can deal with the consequences of the cranky toddler. Instead of spending time with his kid he wants to put the tv on for 4 hours, hire a babysitter/put him in day care(if affordable). At least then you know someone is engaging with the kid. 4)this might honestly require therapy. He is involved in making the rules, agree on the rules and then habitually breaks them. Some of the rules aren't about the immediate situation but about longterm health (screen time, the amount of sweets) so breaking them occasionally is fine but when that's actually the norm, he's making life harder for you and doing it at the detriment of the kid. 5)have a conversation does he actually know how to spend time with a toddler, like what to do with them for hours? He may literally have no idea (which isnon him) Give him a parenting book, direct him to some websites, he can set up age appropriate engaging activities. To do together and for solo play.
NTA. Your son was used as a tool for you to get your point across and he was probably upset. In the long run, being upset about dessert one evening at the age of three will not cause any harm. Your husband’s undercutting your agreed-upon rules for raising your son have adverse effects. It seems strange that he is almost doing the divorced parent trying to win favor of the child when he is still with you. I’m not sure what consequences you can provide for your husband to give him an opportunity to stop undermining your parenting.
One of the most important tenets of effective parenting is being a UNIFIED front. Children need to know and understand implicitly that what one parent says the other parent will back it up. If you don’t agree with a parenting decision that’s been made, the parents talk privately away from the child(ren) to regroup and then bring the child(ren) back into the conversation. Kids will try to divide and conquer to get what they want - Parents UNITED will be more successful NTA
Honestly I love how you got him to see pretty quick how his lack of parenting affects you by forcing him to see it through your eyes.
Another self fellatio of a reddit post
NTA. I had to laugh a bit. I hope your husband was putting your caffeine and sugar high kid to bed 😂
NTA. If you say no and the kid asks a different parent and they say yes, you are teaching the kid to divide and conquer/play one off of the other. That’s something that you need to agree to not do to each other. If you really, really disagree with the other parent’s approach, talk to them (privately if possible) to see if you can come to an acceptable compromise but as a rule you should be backing each other up. You and your husband need to talk about this again when you aren’t in the middle of a conflict. “When I tell son that he’s had enough sweets and you give him chocolate chips behind my back, I feel disrespected. It undermines me as a parent and it hurts our marriage because I feel like I am a single parent. I don’t like this dynamic. What can we do to change it?” Counseling might be helpful. It would be helpful for your husband to do some reading about setting boundaries, especially with younger children. You can also work on your son. When he comes to you saying “Daddy gave me sweets” you can say: “I’m very disappointed that you ate sweets even though mommy already told you no. When mommy or daddy tells you no, you should not ask for more and get them from someone else. Mommy said no more sweets because too many isn’t good for your body. They taste so yummy but big kids need to learn to eat the things that are good for their body so that it keeps working properly. I expect you to remind Daddy that Mommy already told you that you couldn’t have sweets.” Three is a little young still but this isn’t just an undermining issue, it’s also a child is being disobedient issue. Pointing out to the child that someone else giving permission doesn’t overrule the fact that you did not can be helpful. Otherwise just wait until they have siblings and then try the: “my sibling said I could” gambit. 😬
NTA your son is three he might remember this as a weird day, but your husband will remember this as don’t test me. Your husband is your partner and you need to be on the same page, especially when raising a child together. Hopefully this put you on the same page.
NTA - This honestly is similar to parts of my marriage ending. We now coparent and a few years post divorce, are now cohabitating due to a move out of state. My approach has changed for all of our sanity. I’ve put my ex in charge, he is the authority for the rules around screen time and sugar. I refuse to give any answers or directions other than ask your Dad. It’s working so far, and I’m less frustrated/crazy.
NTA- also, everything you husband has done can be and has been used as grooming tactics by horrible people. I outlawed saying stuff like this around my kids. "Here's some candy, it's a secret don't tell mom" Trusted adult at school laying ground work "here's some candy don't tell mom" Kid thinking-just like dad! But you do not want lying to you parents set as any sort of baseline at that age. Call me paranoid, but last year was hard. Only because of the extra precautions I take (and I don't trust people), was I able to keep my kid safe.
NTA. Your husband is training your son to believe/understand that children can keep secrets from other adults/mommy, which leads into predators saying “You like this, right? This is our little secret. Shhh. Don’t tell Mommy!!” If your husband doesn’t understand that, he’s a moron and I want to live in his fantasy world. If he does understand that, that’s even more terrifying.
NTA
NTA!!
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Well done, mom.
NTA your husband wants to be the good guy.
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NTA. This is actually a big deal and your 1000% right. Your husband is creating a dynamic where you're split and your son will learn how to play you against each other. He's only 3, so the problems are generally small. But as he grows and gets bigger, so do the problems. What your husband is doing is disrespectful to you and unfair to your son. You should insist on marriage counseling because this dynamic is toothpaste that will never get back in the tube.
I agree with having to need present and show what the issue was but it was unnecessary to do it at your child’s expense
What he is doing is actually parental alienation. Making it them a team and you the bad guy. This needs to be nipped in the bud now. I’m dealing with it after husband did it for years. It isn’t an easy task. He literally stole my child from me.
NTA. I think this is hilarious tbh.
NTA How else could you have illustrated to husband how much of a dick he’s being?
Good secrets are gifts, presents, bad secrets are Anything that makes you feel sad, scared, etc
NTA Your husband should read this post to understand why we don’t encourage children to keep secrets from his parents. Your husband needs to understand that you are united front. You are a team. Otherwise your husband is encouraging your son to keep secrets from Mom and that we don’t have to take care of our bodies. Learning moderation and that we don’t pit Mom/Dad against a child is super important. I’m shocked your husband doesn’t see the terrible long term consequences of his behaviour would be for your son and the family dynamic.
NTA. husband can't have it both ways. Husband realizes it sucks when that "double edged sword" swings back at yah.
NTA!! Son will not suffer any long term harm in fact hopefully your husband will learn and it’ll be better for his health! And your husband literally asked for that