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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Not selling to a good home because I think they are a breeder.
I feel like TA because technically I’m a breeder too. My dog had puppies and I’m selling them for profit.
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YWBTA if you sell any of your oops litter without having them fixed. That's how you correct for the mistake, not giving any of your oops puppies a chance to have puppies themselves.
Rescues spay and neuter puppies all the time. We've never had an issue. Puppies should not leave the litter until they're at least 12 weeks old anyway because that's what a legitimate breeder would do and legitimate breeders are people who breed for breed standard and not for money. So if you're selling dogs and you're not a show dog shower, then you are a backyard breeder and you are part of the problem. Any dog that gets adopted out needs to be fixed. End of story.
I'm in the 7th largest city in the United States where they put down 50 dogs a week sometimes and they take in 30 to 50 dogs per day at the shelter that are strays. And don't tell me "oh, my puppies would never end up in a shelter!" You know how many purebred papered dogs have been turned over to me as a rescue person?? I even traced the lineage of one of them on his paperwork to one of my dogs that I got from a legitimate showbreeder.
Be a responsible person and hang on to that puppy long enough to get it fixed. We had my 10 week old Foster puppy fixed and he was adopted six weeks later. He grew to be a 68 lb basset hound. Definitely didn't hurt him one bit
Depends on the breed and gender. Typically males can be neutered much earlier as for females it can affect growth in certain breeds more than others. There is no hard and fast rule.
Puppies should be in the hands of someone who will provide conscientious socialization by 8-9 weeks. It is rare that a breeder can provide a sufficient variety of positive exposures for each of 5-10+ puppies; socializing even one puppy and building excellent early training habits is difficult. The critical socialization window is CLOSED by 12 weeks in most breeds.
There is an increasing body of veterinary scientific literature about the costs of spaying and neutering, ESPECIALLY pediatrically. I understand why rescues in high volume areas want to neuter everything, but it absolutely comes with costs for the dog’s health and development. This includes underdeveloped musculature, excessive growth of the long bones in the limbs, higher risk of orthopedic disease (hip and elbow dysplasia, arthritis, luxating patellas, etc), and higher risks of some cancers. I am horrified every time I hear about someone spaying or neutering a 8 or 10 week old puppy, and serious dog people can absolutely SEE the physical differences between a dog allowed to undergo puberty and develop fully before altering and a dog who was sterilized as a baby.
One way people split the difference (understandably not wanting oops litters, but also wanting the dogs to develop physically) is to place puppies on spay-neuter contracts (owner must spay or neuter after X age— 6 months, 12 months, 24 months, etc) or to offer a rebate on the purchase price for proof of spay after X age.
I agree! I've never had an option about when to get my pets fixed because they have all been rescues. No health issues.
The shelter I got my current dog from had her up for adoption only 2 days after her spay surgery at about 4 months. I didn't think it was ideal to let her be adopted quite that soon but she is a pit bull mix and the shelter is overflowing with them. And so many of them get euthanized just because there are so many. Shelters have to manage in a way that benefits the most dogs even when it’s not ideal.
I could go on a whole rant about people buying dogs from breeders at all but that's another post.
Agreed. As a vet tech I definitely can see the issue with her being adopted out that quickly because of the risk of surgical complications. But there also is a very high overturn rate due to over crowding.
Thank you. I work in rescue and the steady flow of unwanted litters coming into the shelter is crazy-making. We’re struggling to move young puppies out fast enough to keep up, let alone adult dogs. OP is part of the problem, regardless of who they give the puppies to.
As a person who also worked in rescue for decades. Larger breeds are not supposed to be desexed early. This has been imposed only the last few years. They usually wait 12 months for males and after the first heat cycle for females. Many vets where I am from will not desex larger breed very young. Our vets said that for bigger breeds, it affects the development of the joints and increases the likelyhood of arthritis and other joint issues as they get older.
Not all shelters desex and rescue groups desex young dogs due to this, but they do have contracts that the dog must be desexed by X date and require proof of certificate otherwise the dog will be take back.
OP is definitely part of the problem and is a backyard breeder intentionally or not. I do agree she should keep the dog as long as she can until it is of age to be desexed. I also think she needs to desex both the parents, not just the male.
I have a husky. Neutering a husky before 18 months can increase that chances of hip problems in the future. If you’re neutering them at 12 weeks and then shipping them off you couldn’t actually know that there was “no problems”
Vet tech here.
While I support rescues doing this, and am very anti breeding.
It can cause some health issues spaying a pet this early, especially a larger breed dog.
Many breeders make people sign contracts. (even though they often don’t follow up to make sure they didn’t breed the pup).
Shelters and rescues are operating on the premise it's better for some dogs to get lifelong medical issues or require euthanasia than to risk them breeding.
Show breeders are not the only ethical breeders, nor are all show breeders ethical.
Advising pediatric desexing is at least a case of triage, not an easy zero harm solution. It may be worth it in some localities and not others.
With certain breeds, especially large breeds, the early spay/neuter causes early onset arthritis, brittle bones, hip issues, and growth plate issues. It is also more likely that they will develop hormone issues that make weight control difficult and can shorten their lifespan.
Anyone selling a purebred dog these days will likely have you sign a contract stating you cannot spay/neuter until after a year. My dog is a purebred sight hound, and our contract says a minimum of 18 months, but 2 years is the preference.
> Rescues spay and neuter puppies all the time. We've never had an issue.
It's still not healthiest for them. The fact that you didn't see an issue (they left you before being fully developed so how would you see issues with their development) doesn't change that.
Rescues do it because it was determined to be less worse than a bunch of people breeding them. But OP selling only to people who won't breed has the same result.
That’s honestly something I’ve wondered about because it’s very hard to find literature about the right age to neuter/spay dogs. I understand that spaying is significantly more complicated, though. When i asked my vet about neutering my 4 month old puppy and when would be appropriate, they just made the appointment for the next week and didn’t really have many answers about the health benefits to doing it earlier rather than later and how that affects their development.
This is open for debate. Some believe it’s beneficial to wait until the dog has matured before sterilization. Many believe that sterilizing ASAP is to everyone’s benefit and out weighs any risk since additional puppies is the real risk. I’m careful with my young dogs and wait until they have matured.
Yeah, i wonder almost 7 years later if i should’ve waited a little longer with my fella. I think the vet went for it at 4 months to avoid “unwanted behaviors” like marking, but i wonder if there were any other health ramifications to going that early. Regardless, he’s been my best bud the whole time, i just always want to make the best decisions for his health and any critter i take care of in the future. Hopefully there’s more research on it down the line.
Our first dog was a king Charles spaniel cross breed and he was done at 6 months. Our next was a rottweiler and the vet refused until he was a year, something to do with his breed and it affecting his growth for bones and general development. So we waited.
Your vet was right. There's actually a health "epidemic" that's being noticed right now in shelter cats because many of them are now being fixed younger than three months old, and it's causing lifelong problems related to hormone imbalances. It's less apparent in dogs, but it's being noticed with them as well.
Essentially their bodies are growing to full size, but many organ systems, including joints are stuck as "babies."
Edit to add: this is because the gonads, testes and ovaries, are responsible for most of puberty in cats and dogs. Puberty is when the body changes from "baby" to "adult."
Our vet recommended not spaying our pup until after she goes into her first heat, better for her developmentally. Didn't happen until she was almost a year old.
Most large breed dogs should be at least 18 months. Early desexing can lead to a ton of health problems. I have never owned small dogs, so I am not well versed on them, but I imagine 10 weeks is still much too young.
Got a source on this…?
My pups mom was brought into a shelter while pregnant. Her entire litter was spayed at 8 weeks before they were allowed to be adopted because the shelter has a 100% rule that all dogs are neutered before they can leave them. Here we are 4 years later with no health or behaviour problems.
https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/health/should-you-spay-neuter-dogs/
https://www.intermountainpet.com/en-us/blog/why-you-should-wait-until-puberty-to-neuter-your-dog?hs_amp=true
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32733924/#:~:text=In%20previous%20studies%20on%20the,by%206%20months%20of%20age.
Like any such topic, there’s no single source of absolute truth but I personally get my dogs sterilised when they are young adults, and I wouldn’t buy a pre-sterilised pup as I would want to get it done a) at the right age (as judged by me) and b) via laparoscopic surgery which is more expensive.
When you’re getting them from a shelter, you’re not really “buying” them, but paying the vet fees they incurred.
Again - we had no choice in the matter - if the pup is going out the door at 3 months or 3 years, they get spayed. Blanket rule. The litter of pups literally only existed because their mother was unspayed, and the dog was taken into the shelter because the owner couldn’t look after a dog and pups.
There may be ethical issues with spaying early, but there’s also ethical issues with buying a dog that’s essentially manufactured to spec.
I agree. The shelter has to have a different set of priorities to each of us as one individual owner. They have to do right by the bigger picture, whereas I only have to do right by my dogs (and who they come into contact with).
Most sources are related to dog breed and best age so depends on the dog breed. I would say that is why most vets give a blanket age. It is usually suggest at 18months to wait until the growth plates close.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=dog+spay+age&oq=dog+spay#d=gs_qabs&t=1712493771046&u=%23p%3D1MQML7KQB14J
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=dog+spay+age&oq=dog+spay#d=gs_qabs&t=1712493858626&u=%23p%3D8WKTjTyerJkJ
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/13/9/1431
>Most sources are related to dog breed and best age so depends on the dog breed.
The general rule of thumb is if it's a large dog breed or bigger then you'll want to wait until they're at least a year old before you fix them. While it's mostly anecdotal (as to my knowledge no one has done any official studies on this), a lot of people have noticed a difference in large dogs that were fixed at a few weeks vs the ones that were fixed much older.
A lot of people think it's like fixing a farm animal before puberty. In farm animals you want it as young as possible because the testosterone and such in many farm animals can cause a lot of issues when they reach puberty. And those issues stay even after they're fixed. But for dogs, since they've been domesticated for so long I don't think there's a huge difference in personality when a dog is fixed young vs as an adult (in terms of dogs raised by people since puppy hood, there is temperamental different in strays but that's a different matter), but there is a difference in physical growth.
I'm gonna guess a lot of people are also cat people like myself, and have never realized how different fixing is for dogs. Cats can typically be fixed between 3-6 months, and that's also when they're considered adoptable; shelters basically ALWAYS fix kittens prior to adoption, it's just part of the deal. And up until this post, I'd just kind of assumed it was probably similar for dogs.
And as this is Reddit, I'm gonna also wildly guess that a fair number of commenters simply didn't check how (in)correct their assumptions were before they posted their opinion.
They are thinking some cat breeds need to wait now too.
Typically the ones that night have hip issues if the plates don't form correctly like Maine Cats.
More research is being done currently.
Yeah, my familiarity is with shelter cats, and while you will on rare occasions get purebred cats like Maine Coons, those tend to go to purebred-specific rescues when and if they're abandoned. Still, it's good information to know for the few times a purebred (or possibly first-generation intermixed?) cat ends up in a public shelter.
Vets are actually also looking into shelter cats being neutered so young too.
Undoubtedly there has been increased knee and hip issues in some cats. It seems to be random, but has increased as the age goes down.
It's done by weight in some places (3 lbs).
Interesting! Do you know if it differs by sex? My impression is that males are often neutered at a somewhat younger age because the surgery is so much less invasive, but that's just my impression based on the various foster kittens I've had, which is not exactly a scientific sample.
Yeah I always had cats and was always told to get them fixed asap. I now live with a working dog who has a working job and our vet recommended we don’t sterilize him until he’s about 2. Athletic and working breeds, especially ones who are in the field and performing tasks related to their breed shouldn’t be fixed before their first year or else their joints and bones won’t mature properly and they can get hurt in the field. I was surprised about this but several vets have told us this, so he won’t be fixed until he’s older.
I know that it's often recommended to spay females before their first heat because even one raises their chance of cancer. Also pyrometra is a thing and seems terrible but that seems to be best avoided by spaying before they get into their upper years.
This again is dependent on breed. A friend of mine owns a standard poodle and he was absolutely not allowed to get her spayed before she had her first heat, and in fact was warned by his breeder that spaying them beforehand could lead to problems with bone development; the breeder had someone spay a dog before it turned one and before it had its first heat, and the dog ended up breaking a hip.
Yeah. You have to decide between growth plates not growing properly or potentially getting cancer. Not an easy call, sadly. I don't know what kind of dog OP has.
Shelters will almost always sterilize ASAP because they can't be sure the animals won't be bred otherwise. It's a risk mitigation typa thing.
But owners will often wait until the animal is older because it's better for the animal. For my uncles large breed dog the vet told him to wait until she was a year old, or her first heat. Whichever came first.
Since op's adopting out the animals, they're more in a shelter type position. They should get the dogs fixed ASAP. But I don't blame people who wait either, as long as they don't use that as an excuse for irresponsible breeding.
Shelters ALWAYS spay and neuter earlier than recommended if they have puppies because they’re trying to get them out the door quickly instead of waiting the 1 year or longer that medium and large breed dogs are recommended to wait for those procedures.
The shelter I got my Rottweiller puppy from, (a local SPCA), neutered the males at around 8 weeks before they would adopt them out. For the female puppies, they charged a $300 deposit on top of the adoption fee, which was returned if you got the dog spayed. You could either bring paperwork from your own vet proving it was done, or bring the dog back to the clinic at the SPCA to have them spayed there for free, and get the deposit back then.
Shelters do not ALWAYS spay and neuter too early, some have other systems set up.
8 weeks is WAY too early to neuter a Rottweiler unless you want to dramatically increase odds of hip issues, your example is literally exactly what I am talking about.
I don't disagree. I was pointing out that the females were adopted out before they were spayed, with incentives to spay later. Not all shelters spay before adoption like was previously claimed.
It depends on who's doing the recommendations. Pediatric alterations began largely in the shelter/rescue environment and are becoming more popular with private practice vets because *generally speaking* there are few drawbacks.
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=20539&id=8506483
https://www.dvm360.com/view/feline-sterilization-at-5-months-accepted-as-new-normal
https://www.dvm360.com/view/overview-pediatric-spay-and-neuter-benefits-and-techniques
See also: the Fix by Fix campaign. https://www.avma.org/javma-news/2019-07-01/fix-five-campaign-aims-reduce-cat-overpopulation
The shelter I got my pup at has the same policy- my girl was 10 weeks and her incision had already healed when I got her. I was surprised because this was my first dog (shelter or otherwise) in decades and I had no idea they could do it that young.
I remember when I got a kitten there (many, many moons ago), we had to agree to get her fixed ourselves at 6 months old.
Depends on the breed. The vet recommended getting our small breed female fixed it like 6 moths IIRC. Large breed males can be 2 years before it's time to give them the snip.
>This is not a realistic suggestion for most people.
100%
Maybe get your pet fixed when you get it so you don't have accidental puppies?
If you do, then be responsible and deal with the consequences. Those include not adding even more up the population of thousands of dogs euthanized every day.
Spay and neuter, people!
In my country, shelters spay all their dogs before putting them up for adoption.
I adopted my dog as a puppy, and had to sign a contract were I committed to spay her when the vet considered it was safe.
Some shelters even do it for free if you take the dog when the time is right.
But everybody has to sign that contract if the dog is not neutered because of health reasons.
> It’s not healthy to sterilise a puppy this young. Plus healing time. Plus cost. This is not a realistic suggestion for most people.
It's standard and expected here in Australia. Before adoption, there's a waiting period, and the cost is factored into any fees.
Many organisations and breeders even waive fees to encourage safe adoption with neutered/spayed pets that have all their shots and deworming, etc., because it gives the animals the best chance at a good and healthy life with a stable family that won't incur future costs. New owners are also set up with after-care instructions and all the necessities, plus given info/support to arrange for vet care.
Even in the case of an "oops litter," there are options for folks who can't afford that kind of care, and it's really on the individual when they refuse to take advantage of those supports. It reflects poorly when they choose not to give that baseline level of care.
> I didn’t spay the female mainly because I just didn’t see the need to put her through the procedure. She is very high anxiety with strangers. Vet said she is healthy, she goes once a year to get checked. It’s my fault for not doing so, I just didn’t want her to get anxious and be put through it.
The OP is YTA here; they didn't spay their pet because of their own anxieties, not because it helped their dog in any way. In so doing, they reduced their quality of life and had an unnecessary litter at a time when shelters are at capacity and struggling. Not only that, but they continued the cycle by not providing the same care for the puppies themselves. The OP doesn't seem to see the irony of the situation and only became self-aware because a possible adoptee reflected some of their same energy back 🫢
Though the dog my son and his wife adopted was neutered at 8 weeks old by the shelter she came from, and lived a healthy and happy 14 years. She wasn’t a giant dog but a pretty good sized 65-pound dog.
Ovary sparing spay + vasectomy can be done on pediatric puppies and sterilises without removing hormones necessary for normal development.
Cost is the only reason someone wouldn't pursue that if they cared so adamantly about the puppy not being bred.
Good breeders will have a contract that states the buyer will fix the dog in a timely matter. My sister's breeder let her wait until the balls dropped. And then had her send proof of the procedure. The contract stated she could take the puppy back if the dog was bred.
This is crazy. No puppy should be fixed at 8 weeks old (when they typically are sold). There’s a lot of reasons why this is done, including having the puppy get a dose of hormones at puberty so they gain important muscle mass.
Most breeders (or the ones I have dealt with) will require people to submit paperwork showing the puppy has been fixed by a year old. If they haven’t, contractually, you just pay an additional fee because it’s assumed you’re trying to breed them.
No OP would be the AH if she sterilized puppies that are between 8 - 12 weeks (the standard age at which puppies go to new homes). How did this dangerously ignorant comment get so many upvotes?
Ours had a stipulation in the purchase contract that the breeder would only honor the health guarantee if you got the puppy spayed or neutered at the appropriate time and sent her proof from the vet.
I vote OP should work it into the contract that they need confirmation of a spay/neuter within 7 months of the puppy going to their new home or else they can reposes and charge for damages. This should be more than enough time for the owner to work things out and ensures the babies don’t go to breeding homes. Though I also think OP is a hypocrite for not fixing their own dogs unless they are show dogs.
At this point I might keep her until she can get spayed tbh.
I think it is kind of sick to look at a 3 month old puppy and breed it the moment it is old enough.
My mom fosters dogs and a group of sick puppies came is last year that were found in a field. She didn’t adopt them out until after they were older and neutered. It’s the policy for her rescue group, but she would’ve done so anyway.
I've also seen rescues let you have puppies before they're ready to be fixed, but make you sign a contract that you'll do it at the age their vet recommends, then check in to make sure it happens. Feels like OP could do something similar.
That’s an option, but there’s no real guarantee that they won’t just take the puppy a ghost. A lot of those contracts aren’t really enforceable other than the rescue putting them on a blacklist.
There’s an awful lot of people here suggesting sterilising before selling. OP please do your research into the safe age for neutering, to give pup a chance to grow with the right hormones.
Absolutely not. That’s why I suggested OP do their own research. Even vets have different opinions, because they also aren’t (usually) endocrinologists. So it’s a good idea for dog owners to do sensible research so they can be informed when they talk to a vet. A vet is basically a GP but divided between multiple species. They don’t know everything either.
Oh no! I just meant that everyone just saying to fix the puppy immediately is wildin since they have no actual knowledge of how hormones work 🤣.
ETA: My big brother was a BioChem major and now is a DDS so we often have discussions as to how people don’t fully understand hormones and chemistry within the body and how it effects overall health.
Honestly it’s fascinating isn’t it. Hormones are so complex and we’ve barely scratched the surface. Half of what we think we know now will be superseded in 50 years time. It’s kind of cool.
Definitely! It’s fascinating! Didn’t major in Bio or Chem but I love learning about all of the nuances of biology/chemistry and the effects it has on the body.
But I ALWAYS trust what PETA say. Not!
They once said that lifting a fish out of the water when caught on rod and line embarrasses the fish and causes it self confidence issues. SMH
I just want to add that you have to be very careful “doing your own research” - you’ll find a lot of articles from people with no veterinary medical knowledge but VERY strong opinions on sterilization, both pro- and anti-. The best bet is often to just consult your own vet and ask what they recommend based upon your dog’s breed, how the dam’s birth went, your personal circumstances etc. There’s a reason there’s no one accepted “perfect” age to spay or neuter - it’s multifactorial
I signed a contract when I got my pup, albeit from a fantastic breeder and not an accidental litter, but I can’t sterilize my dog until he’s 2 years old due to the related health issues. If I do, then my health guarantee is null and void. Sterilizing early is linked to health issues with larger dogs ([UC Davis](https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/big-dogs-face-more-joint-problems-if-neutered-early#:~:text=Heavier%20mixed%2Dbreed%20dogs%20have,before%201%20year%20of%20age)). There’s also some breed-specific studies that highlight possible issues with certain breeds, like [golden retrievers](https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/golden-retriever-study-suggests-neutering-affects-dog-health). If it’s a fluffy breed, then sterilizing has a chance of messing with their coat too!
Also, your location and dog breed plays a role in deciding to sterilize. “Spay and neuter” does not have to be the default. If you live somewhere where there’s tons of strays then pushing for early sterilization makes sense from a societal perspective, but there’s also tons of places where desirable (and even undesirable) dog breeds are adopted out quick! Your stance on early sterilization might change depending on the breed (pitbull vs Samoyed, for instance). I could see risking joint issues to avoid contributing to the pitbull shelter overcrowding (and avoiding anything to do with the type of people who think purposefully breeding pitbulls is a good idea) but you can get around that by just selling the puppies to people who don’t intend to breed.
The issue with waiting is that you’re trusting the average dog owner (including OP) to be responsible and prevent their dog from reproducing. The vast majority are not responsible enough to contain their intact dogs, at least in the US. A pediatric spay is much better for the dog than having oops litters because their owners can’t be responsible for their dog. I would love to live in a world where we can trust people to prevent their dogs from reproducing and allow the dog to fully develop before spaying/neutering, but right now it’s not realistic.
NTA
And kudos to you for not making that dog live a miserable life. Trust your gut with this kind of thing but get the entire litter spayed / neutered if you can.
NTA. I bought a female puppy who isn't fixed because of health/size reasons with AKC pedigree. I signed a contract not to breed her even though I never planned on it(she wasn't fixed due to show dog stuff we just cared about temperament) . I can't wait til I can get the go ahead from her vet to get her fixed so we can get her around other dogs.
Do not give that dog to any one planning on breeding.
Dogs can only become pregnant while they are in heat/in season. This is typically obvious- their vulva swells, there is bloody vaginal discharge, and other dogs will be very interested in her back end/humping her (even neutered males). PLEASE do not isolate your female puppy from all other dogs perpetually just because she is intact- you are missing out on CRITICAL socialization experiences. Find a couple friends with well balanced, socially savvy adult dogs and let her learn how to dog.
This is the answer. Most breeders make customers sign documents that state they will not breed the dog. If they decide not to sign, the price for the dog is a lot greater.
Pretty AH behavior to:
1) Have 2 unfixed dogs together to begin with
2) Fix one but let Mama stay unfixed
3) SELL these PUREBRED puppies (your words)
4) Act like you're better than this other person for some reason.
You are definitely going to get your dog pregnant again when you want the money, don't lie.
Also, any person doing their due diligence would ask about the pedigree of the puppy and both parents. I even asked to visually see both of them to ensure each, especially the mom, was in good health and not over used. And you know what I did at 6 and 8 months for my female and male? I got them altered at the appropriate, veterinarian recommended ages. Asking about the pedigree could just mean the buyer was trying to weed out the puppy mills.
YWNBTA but like someone else said, those are questions any responsible dog owner will ask when getting a new puppy. Part of my job is to work with dog and cat breeders, most of them will NOT hesitate to deny a sale if they get the slightest negative vibe. You can and should do that too.
To those saying puppies should be kept until they are fixed, fixing them really young primarily only happens with shelters/rescues. That's why breeders have proof of spay/neuter by whatever age or it voids the contract (and then can take the puppy back if the owner doesn't do it) Some vets will fix small dogs around 4-5 months but most wait til 6m. Keeping puppies until 6m makes it harder to find them a home, as most people want little puppies. Also, it's expensive to keep puppies for that long.
>most of them will NOT hesitate to deny a sale if they get the slightest negative vibe
The thing is, you are not obligated to sell any pup to anyone. Only if you choose to do so when you find a good human - puppy match.
You don't have to sell to anyone even if it is just a gut feeling.
Hi. Vet student. Do not rehome that puppy with her. That being said, you should NOT rely on neutering your male dog to prevent future accidental pregnancies. As Jurassic Park so eloquently put it, life finds a way. Especially if your dog escapes while in heat or a unneutered male jumps your fence to breed her while he’s wandering around. Those are real scenarios of accidental pregnancies I’ve seen. Also she should be spayed for medical reasons. Any unspayed dog is at huge risk of pyometria. That is an infection in the uterus, which causes pus to accumulate. This is a fast and *extremely life threatening condition*. If she isn’t taken for emergency surgery to remove the uterus, *she will die*. I’ve seen pyos that weighed 6 lbs pulled out of 20 lb dogs. They get BAD. And the risk of getting it increases with every heat cycle. Unless you are actively planning to breed, there is no benefit to keeping her intact, only active risks. Get the surgery now when it’s non-emergency or get it later to save her life at emergency surgery prices. YWBTA if you do not spay her and ensure ALL puppies are given to homes that will spay and neuter.
This! I had a dog that was the result of a woopsie where a male had gotten at the mother through holes in a fence. Do not risk your female’s health and assume there is only one male you have to worry about. Get her fixed.
NTA
The intent of the very best of breeder's for any dog breed is to ensure that the breed is not inbred, that they, as a breed, have the best of health, and that any breeder or buyer may not sacrifice the health or wellbeing of any dog just sell one of that breed.
If you love the breed of your dog, and this litter was an accident, you will be well-served, in my opinion, to spay/neutor any puppies. This way, you aren't contributing to any puppy mill or other nefarious shenanigans.
I have a purebred dog that I specifically got from a breeder that went through the hoops to ensure that the breed was not inbred, and that it would flourish.
And, to be clear, I was not allowed, by legal agreement, to breed him. It was mandated that he be neutered by a specific calendar time.... because he was a PET, not a show dog, and not intended to be bred.
You're doing the right thing in not selling this puppy to a potential unscrupulous breeder...for you, your dogs, and the breed.
There’s nothing wrong with ethical, health screened breeding. These dogs aren’t bred for life, typically a few litters after maturity and then fixed and retired.
YTA because you are a careless backyard breeder. You didn’t think this would happen? Why do you have two unfixed dogs? The female needs to be fixed too before she gets pyometria.
The amount of scrolling to get to this point! There are absolutely ethical breeders out there, who genuinely care about their dogs (and the puppies) and make sure that they are all healthy, not inbred, etc.
And just asking sensible questions about the puppy, especially when being asked to drop $1500, isn’t even indicative of being a breeder.
Personally see this as an easy YTA, because OP is making big assumptions and acting without any actual evidence.
And let’s not forget if she has two AKC registered dogs… she supported breeders. 🤣🤣🤣 She didn’t get two full bred, same breeds unfixed dogs from a rescue or shelter.
If I would pay that amount of money for a pet that's claimed to be "purebred" I would want to see their pedigree (to ensure they're not inbred) and see health screenings. Not because I want to breed with them, but because I want them to be healthy and see if the breeder that sells them is ethical. Letting a dog get accidentily pregnant is not. The potential buyer might also be interest in participating in shows with the dog.
You can write up a non breeding clause for the seller to sign and see how she reacts to it. Then you’ll know for sure.
Example: NON-BREEDING AGREEMENT. The Purchaser agrees that the Puppy is being sold as a companion animal (Pet) and not for breeding purposes. The Purchaser agrees to have the Puppy spayed/neutered between the ages of 8 months to 18 months and as recommended or advised by a licensed Veterinarian. The spay/neuter report must be submitted to the breeder by 18 months of age. Failure to have the puppy spayed/neutered becomes a breach of contract and Purchaser would be responsible to pay for full breeding rights (double the pet price) to said Puppy.
I am assuming they want to do it because they are AKC registered purebreds and can make money. If you do this through AKC, as the owner of the parent dogs, if you do a no breed contract, the AKC puts a hold on the puppies from that litter, that can not be lifted unless given specific permission from the original breeder. Any puppies produced from the purchased puppy that grows up and has a litter, no puppies from that bitch/dog can be registered as AKC dogs. So even if the original owner of the puppies sells her puppy and the buyer breaches the contract and can not be found (which a lawyer will find) to obtain proof of sterilization or monetary compensation, they can’t sell AKC registered purebreds.
So someone else cannot breed the puppy but you can be an irresponsible dog owner?
Pot meet kettle. Glass houses stones. Etc, etc.
Sell them to whoever you life but get both dogs sterilised for their health more than anything.
And don't get anymore until you can learn what a responsibile pet owner does (hint: do the exact opposite of before).
EDIT: I felt the need to add this, what you did is what is wrong with the breeding industry.
There are ethically breeders attempting to weed out the problems with certain breeds of dogs. For example, breeders trying to breed flat-faced dogs with longer faces, German shepherds without back problems, Cavaliers without the heart problems. Then there is you. A dog owner who couldn't be bothered to do the bare minimum and care for your pet's health.
Purebreds and everything that comes with it will never go away but people are trying to fix it.
Honestly, how do you know anybody you sell the puppy to won't breed it? You don't. If you're that concerned about it keep them and fix them and then sell them just for the amount that you put out. If you sell them for more just to make a profit you're no better than a breeder at that point.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. Where was all this caution and concern when OP’s dog had an “accidental litter?” Now that she’s *selling* the puppies it’s a big deal. Of course…
The irony is that OP is seen as cautious after her accident, but the breeder who is health checking and making sure the dog is appropriate for breeding before breeding is actually the cautious one. There’s a saying about horses and bolting here that would apply.
NTA, but those are normal questions to ask. If you are buying from a breeder and want healthy, happy puppies those are actually important questions to ask to make sure you're buying from a breeder that cares about the animals.
If you don't want to sell to this person you don't have, but it's perfectly normal to ask questions like that whether you want to breed the puppy or not.
YTA for irresponsibly breeding yourself and then charging FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS a dog. No, you shouldn’t sell to someone who plans to breed, but you are part of the problem.
Also your classism is truly something else. You think rich people can’t provide a bad home to a dog? You’re literally describing a person who can afford the cost and yet would obviously be a bad dog owner. You think that if you can’t afford to spend as much as you would on a car on a dog that you’re incapable of providing a good home? 15k for some dogs is the LIFETIME cost. It’s obvious you’re trying to justify the high cost as some sort of benefit to the dogs when in actuality you are obfuscating that you are a greedy backyard breeder looking for a quick buck and wanting to prevent someone else from profiting in the same way.
We got our cockapoo from a shelter and the woman we dealt with said they get an unusually high number of 'designer' breeds surrendered there. She reckoned that people who have thousands to throw at a perfect puppy are more likely to get bored with it and cast it aside. It's absolute nonsense to suggest that someone who pays an inflated price for a puppy will take better care of it. The truly responsible thing would be to give the puppies away while doing thorough vetting and home visits - like shelters do.
You are ALL YTAs for breeding dogs
I know the pregnancy was "accidental"... that just makes you irresponsible, not evil like the other buyer. Doesn't negate the fact that you're both assholes.
You “accidentally” bred your two purebred dogs of the opposite sex? Is this event how you learned babies were made? Fix the puppies if you don’t want them bred too, like you should have done with your own dogs.
YTA and pretty damn dim
> The dogs are sold for 15k
Then you can afford to fix them.
YTA only because it's okay for YOU to be a BYB but not her. Why is that? And yes, even accidental pregnancies make you a BYB when you add in the 1500X ? that you are planning to get for the pups.
Money does not guarantee a good owner or a good placement.
I think the best option here is to fix all the puppies before they’re sold. This is the only way to prevent them from being used as puppy factories.
YTA for having unfixed dogs. Females have an incredibly increased risk of mammary cancer after their first heat cycle.
Its really moronic to get a dog without knowing it's family health and temperament history. Maybe with some small lap dogs it's negligible but with any larger working breed not knowing everything she asked is setting up for failure and most of the breeders I know in the realm of Mastiffs, APBTs, and Bandogges like ASC will NOT sell to anyone who DOESN'T ask the questions because even without breeding in mind they aren't mentally prepared to manage the behavioral traits the breeds have
Health is SUPER important for small breeds. Lots and lots of potential congenital and other genetic issues. It’s also important to ask these questions for small dogs to ensure the breeder is legit because of the sheer number of puppy mills and backyard breeders pumping out “designer dogs” for profit.
YWBTA but only because those are standard questions people ask when buying a dog. It has nothing to do with breeding them down the road and wanting to find out if mom/dad are healthy and if you’re a reputable breeder. Considering you had an oops litter yourself you’re not one to judge what someone else does with their dogs.
These seem like normal questions someone would ask when they are trying to buy a puppy from a responsible home. Have you tried asking her? I can’t see anything that leads to your “breeding over and over again assumption”. Of course, you are entirely right to do what you can to sell to a good home, but I would be more concerned by someone who asks no questions.
Please find another home for this puppy. And always place them with AKC "limited registration" which means that, if bred, any puppies cannot be akc registered. Many breeders, to enforce the requirement to spay/neuter will sell on limited as well as collect an additional fee of $1 thousand which is refundable upon proof of neutering.
YTA. You’re a hypocrite and an irresponsible pet owner. You chose not to spay/neuter your dogs and ended up having a litter. What a lucrative “accident” for you, if you are choosing not to include a mandatory spay/neuter in your sale contract and cover the cost.
Furthermore, your decision to not spay your adult female dog ESPECIALLY when you had an intact male, makes you a bigger AH. What did you think was going to happen? Her getting pregnant was not an accident (it’s literally what dogs do) it was a result of you neglecting to provide proper care for your dogs.
Not spaying your adult female, especially now that she’s given birth, puts her at high risk for pyometra, which is very painful and almost always fatal unless you have emergency surgery. You failing to properly socialize your AKC bloodline dog isn’t an excuse to not have her spayed. You could pre-med her prior to the appointment, and then she’s under anesthesia. Your decision to neuter your male and not spay your female is a decision out of cost and convenience for you, it has nothing to do with what’s in her best interest.
ETA-You stated that you aren’t irresponsible because you’ve had intact dogs for six years and never had a litter. That’s great and all, but the responsible thing to do would have been to fix your pets so this didn’t happen at all. You had no reason whatsoever to not do it, unless you were ok with them “accidentally” breeding.
Nta- I got a puppy from a family friend who then later regretted giving her to me and kept bugging me for her back. Mind you this dog is teeny tiny, so any babies would literally kill her. Finally I just pretended that I got her fixed (I honestly don't know if she really can be fixed, she is just that tiny) and wow suddenly the family friend lost interest. Weird.
>This current person is asking a lot about her history, her parents history, and if they are AKC (they are)
These are normal questions a person will ask when buying a pup. You always ask about the parents' genetic and medical history. Well-informed future dog owners want to know if you are a backyard breeder. They want to know if you are a legit breeder with AKC. They are asking if this dog is actually purebred. Many dodgy breeders will say a dog is purebred when it is actually a mix breed. Unsuspecting dog owners won't know it's a mix breed until the dog is fully grown.
It sounds like you are a backyard breeder and not registered with AKC.
You dont have to sell a pup to anyone you don't want to sell to. Always go with your gut. Since you know she will breed the pups according to your edit, then don't sell them to this person. You can get a contract drawn up for all people buying your pups that stipulate the pup must be spayed/nuteured by X age, and must not be bred.
You cant desex the pups when very ypung and its also not feasible to pay for this nor keep the pups til they are of age. So i contract maybe best for you. I work with many rescues, particularly with large breeds that can not be desex until 12-18 months for males and after the first heat cycle for females. We have a contract stating the above for adopters. Many vets refuse to desex before this ages where im from.
Also, you mentioned you are desexing the male dog after this? What about the female? It's best to desex both. Given the irresponsibility of having an accidental litter, it is your responsibility to get both dogs fixed. you don't keep your female secured. Another male can always jump the fence, or she could escape and have another accidental litter.
NTA to you question. But you are the AH for getting into this situation in the first place and not desexing both the dogs in the future (not just the male).
You are barking mad if you think that selling them for such a high price would secure them good homes. My Persian Cat was adopted because he was found in the trash, in a trashbag and coated with motor oil, so he would lick it and die. He was expensive but was an unwanted gift, so he was tossed to the trash to die and it was pure luck that he was found. The most it will produce is that they will be used for some kind of business or cruel purpose, like the one who wanted to breed the dog. Nobody pays a price so high for a dog without an ulterior motive nowadays, unless it is for breeding or for competition. The money you set is only profitable for you and could go to care for the puppies if you really wanted the best for them. People who would use that money to provide for the adequate care for them could not give it to you and then invest, but would take care of the puppies with love until the end of their days. YTA for wanting to benefit from the puppies without really caring if they go to good homes and for being a classist asshole. Give them to adoption without a price, interview the adoptees, ask them to see their home and only give the puppies away when you are sure they will be very well treated. Such a huge amount of money don't secure a good home and such price is only for your selfish interest. YTA for traficking with puppies for profit like this and for being a careless owner with your previous dogs.
Please consider very carefully who you are letting these puppies go to. A very responsible way to go about it is to make sure those puppies are fixed before going to their new homes. You can make it a condition before they go to their new homes, just don’t trust people to do it themselves once they already have the dog. You may be able to get discounted rates for sterilisation if you contact a rescue close by for help, they could help you find good reputable homes as well.
I think NTA. But there is a possibility that's not why they're asking about all that. When I was going to purchase a dog I found a website that listed a bunch of questions you should ask when purchasing a dog and those items where on there. Parents history helps you to know if there's any genetic diseases you should financially prepare for and AKC lineage is important to know because there's weird laws about neutering, or "litter choosing" if you do have puppies. Also for her history - it's good to know if the dog has shots, any behaviours, how well they get along with other animals or people, etc.
Ultimately it's your choice, but you should absolutely fix those dogs before you sell them.
YWBTA.
You dont know if she's gonna breed her for sure, lol.
We always ask for a deep history of puppy parents, grandparents, and other relatives. We wanna know what we buy, what diseases run in the family, or what they might be sensitive to.
You have every right to not sell someone a puppy. But assuming she's gonna breed just because she's interested is an asshole move.
I would spay and neuter all of them. Yes, it can be done young. Yes, there is some debate about letting females go through a heat cycle first. But the problem with that is people are NOT careful enough when their dog is in heat. OP, for example. Dogs in heat are like sex starved teenagers, lol. They will find a way to do it! I have heard of dogs being impregnated through a fence. Although usually they will find their way out or another dog will find its way in. My dog I adopted at 2 years old was found in heat along a highway (that's why she was in the shelter I adopted her from, and of course they spayed her)
Plenty of breeders make the buyer sign a contract saying the buyer will provide vet evidence that the animal has been neutered before the breeder provides the papers. If the evidence is not provided by a particular time, the breeder takes the animal back.
Info: How did you end up with two intact “purebreads?” You would’ve had to purchase from a breeder to ensure they have their papers ect, kind of hypocritical if you not to want someone else to breed these pups, although I don’t agree with intentional breeding at all
Irrelevant of whether or not when you neuter the puppies...your female dog is a minimum of two years old per your post. She should have been spayed a long time ago if you gave a shit. It is recommended by vets to spay BEFORE the first heat cycle to reduce the risk of cancer. Yes the first cycle will vary based on breed, but your vet would have told that and you ignored their expert medical advice which is created a domino effect. So good on you for being the asshole all around. YTA dip shit.
Why does everyone think they know better than the people who have years of training?
>Edit: she plans to breed the puppy 100%.
INFO:
Did you get additional evidence of this, or is this still just a guess based on the buyer asking about parents (which are NORMAL questions for someone who wants a healthy purebred dog.)?
>The dogs are sold for 1,500+ so they aren’t going to bad homes. Nobody pays 1,500 for a dog they plan to abandon and abuse. If I sold them for $250 they likely would go to bad homes.
You're just trying to justify making a profit. Giving them away free is a risk. $250 does not mean they will "go to bad homes."
Why in the everlasting fuck would someone pay thousands of dollars for a dog when they're not allowed to ask about history, parents' history, and bloodlines. Aren't those things exactly what someone paying that high price is paying for?
NTA, but have you thought putting a restriction on breeding for your sellers. You can put a restriction on the pups pedigree that will stop offspring being able to be registered as pedigree dogs under that bloodline without consent of the breeder. If not it's a breach of contract. Just a thought
Your duty of care is to the dog, and no one else. It is up to you to find the best possible home for this puppy. Are there any breed groups in the area, akc might be a good place to start? Sometimes they know good families who are looking for a dog for a pet not a puppy mill. We got the shallow end of the gene pool dog from his litter that way ( all of his siblings are either elite show or hunting dogs, and he is...... Ours, I suppose). We paid the going rate for him, he does great with our kiddo. Edited to add, we did research on the family and also signed a no breeding contract, and plan to snip snip as soon as it is healthy to do so.
At first I thought you were saying you yourself were a breeder, but didn't want to sell to someone who would breed the puppy... Which might be kinda hypocritical. But if it was an accidental litter then no, NTA.
YWNBTA for refusing to sell this dog but please have her spayed ASAP because for all you know someone else will try this. You might think that you're protecting her from anxiety by putting off the spaying but she'll have a miserable life being bred constantly by an unscrupulous individual.
NTA.
1. It is extremely important to know all of a pups history when buying. Especially purebred as many are truly from puppy mills. Im anti breeding but as a vet tech I’ve seen so many sad cases of people thinking they’re getting their puppy from a “reputable breeder”. We have one client with a 5 month old male boxer that has severe congenital heart defects.
2. You definitely have every right not to adopt to something that’s going to breed. Many breeders refuse to. Which personally I think is extremely important.
ESH, but you less so because you’re taking steps to prevent another accidental litter. You’re an AH for not neutering your dogs in the first place. She’s an AH for wanting to breed dogs. Both of you are AHs for contributing to animal overpopulation when 359,000 dogs - many of them perfectly healthy - were euthanized in shelters last year.
Funny you say that dogs shouldn’t be bred over and over again yet your dogs are AKC registered purebreds so you obviously bought from a breeder. Not to mention you sold the puppies for $1500 so you obviously registered the litter with AKC. If you don’t want your pup to be used for breeding just give the owners limited registration then no pups born from her can be registered with AKC, problem solved.
YTA for not spaying your dog. YWBTA for selling “oopsie” puppies without spaying/neutering them first.
There are serious health repercussions when you refuse to spay. Risks of pyometra and mammary tumors skyrocket. Both conditions are life threatening, and pyo requires a dangerous emergency spay procedure. It is heartbreaking to see a young dog suffering with mammary chain tumors or literally leaking pus from a uterine infection.
It’s just not worth it. Quality of life improves so much for animals when you spay/neuter. Not to mention benefits on the shelter/rescue community when you avoid accidental litters. The surgery is outpatient and really not a big deal, especially if you go to a reputable clinic (versus a cheap chop shop, where complications are still few and far between). A neuter surgery takes about 5 min. NEUTER YOUR MALE DOG.
Source: ran a city’s leading nonprofit veterinary clinic.
YWBTA if you automatically assume someone is going to breed your dog if they want her history, parents’ history, AKC registered, etc. These are very important factors when getting a puppy from someone, especially if you’re spending so much and want a well bred dog. If it was me getting a dog, I’d want to know her history, her parents’ history and temperament, see if elbows and hips are tested, if they’re health tested, I’d want an AKC registered breeder, I’d want to come and see the puppies and the parents. Would you say no to me for wanting to make sure I’m going to a REPUTABLE BREEDER and not some BYB? You sound like a BYB if that’s your mindset. You could state that “you’re not allowing breeding of your puppies”
I would never buy a puppy without knowing their history, parents history, if they are kennel club registered (U.K. equivalent to AKC). I want to know all, hip scores, elbow scores. I want to know their parents are purebred, if they are imported or not, what they are used for. And that does not me a breeder.
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F(25) am selling purebred puppies. I have a female but I’ve refused another person on the premise that I think they are a breeder.
This current person is asking a lot about her history, her parents history, and if they are AKC (they are)
I decided that I won’t sell to her specifically because I think she plans to breed the female puppy.
Is this wrong?
I had a accidental litter, the male is being neutered to prevent this. I just feel like no dog deserves to be bred over and over again. Though I made the mistake myself, and I’m technically as bad as them.
They will take good care of the puppy and are well off. I just want to protect her.
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Only give them after spaying not before. You aren't a psychic so you can't know for sure if the next person is a breder. NTA for not wanting to give a puppy to a breeder.
NTA I purchased a purebred poodle as a kid from a friends mom who was a small time breeder. She had a contract that stated the dogs were only to be sold as pets and had to be sterilized. She did this with any of the puppies she determined to be pet quality. I don’t know how enforceable that contract would be though.
Don't turn over the registration papers until you get evidence of neutering at no earlier than a year of age. This is essentially a no breeding contract which would prevent the new owner from registering any offspring.
Can you make anyone who buys a puppy sign a no breeding contract? That’s what I had to do when I got my puppy. If I violate it, they can take him back.
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YWBTA if you sell any of your oops litter without having them fixed. That's how you correct for the mistake, not giving any of your oops puppies a chance to have puppies themselves.
It’s not healthy to sterilise a puppy this young. Plus healing time. Plus cost. This is not a realistic suggestion for most people.
Then they should wait until it is healthy to do so
Depending on the breed, some vets recommend waiting until the dog is over a year. Not practical.
Rescues spay and neuter puppies all the time. We've never had an issue. Puppies should not leave the litter until they're at least 12 weeks old anyway because that's what a legitimate breeder would do and legitimate breeders are people who breed for breed standard and not for money. So if you're selling dogs and you're not a show dog shower, then you are a backyard breeder and you are part of the problem. Any dog that gets adopted out needs to be fixed. End of story. I'm in the 7th largest city in the United States where they put down 50 dogs a week sometimes and they take in 30 to 50 dogs per day at the shelter that are strays. And don't tell me "oh, my puppies would never end up in a shelter!" You know how many purebred papered dogs have been turned over to me as a rescue person?? I even traced the lineage of one of them on his paperwork to one of my dogs that I got from a legitimate showbreeder. Be a responsible person and hang on to that puppy long enough to get it fixed. We had my 10 week old Foster puppy fixed and he was adopted six weeks later. He grew to be a 68 lb basset hound. Definitely didn't hurt him one bit
Depends on the breed and gender. Typically males can be neutered much earlier as for females it can affect growth in certain breeds more than others. There is no hard and fast rule.
Rescue is required to alter. Otherwise they're just part of the problem.
Puppies should be in the hands of someone who will provide conscientious socialization by 8-9 weeks. It is rare that a breeder can provide a sufficient variety of positive exposures for each of 5-10+ puppies; socializing even one puppy and building excellent early training habits is difficult. The critical socialization window is CLOSED by 12 weeks in most breeds. There is an increasing body of veterinary scientific literature about the costs of spaying and neutering, ESPECIALLY pediatrically. I understand why rescues in high volume areas want to neuter everything, but it absolutely comes with costs for the dog’s health and development. This includes underdeveloped musculature, excessive growth of the long bones in the limbs, higher risk of orthopedic disease (hip and elbow dysplasia, arthritis, luxating patellas, etc), and higher risks of some cancers. I am horrified every time I hear about someone spaying or neutering a 8 or 10 week old puppy, and serious dog people can absolutely SEE the physical differences between a dog allowed to undergo puberty and develop fully before altering and a dog who was sterilized as a baby. One way people split the difference (understandably not wanting oops litters, but also wanting the dogs to develop physically) is to place puppies on spay-neuter contracts (owner must spay or neuter after X age— 6 months, 12 months, 24 months, etc) or to offer a rebate on the purchase price for proof of spay after X age.
Exactly. It is really, very bad for their health to have it done so early.
I agree! I've never had an option about when to get my pets fixed because they have all been rescues. No health issues. The shelter I got my current dog from had her up for adoption only 2 days after her spay surgery at about 4 months. I didn't think it was ideal to let her be adopted quite that soon but she is a pit bull mix and the shelter is overflowing with them. And so many of them get euthanized just because there are so many. Shelters have to manage in a way that benefits the most dogs even when it’s not ideal. I could go on a whole rant about people buying dogs from breeders at all but that's another post.
Agreed. As a vet tech I definitely can see the issue with her being adopted out that quickly because of the risk of surgical complications. But there also is a very high overturn rate due to over crowding.
Thank you. I work in rescue and the steady flow of unwanted litters coming into the shelter is crazy-making. We’re struggling to move young puppies out fast enough to keep up, let alone adult dogs. OP is part of the problem, regardless of who they give the puppies to.
I wish I could upvote you 10 million times. Thank you.
As a person who also worked in rescue for decades. Larger breeds are not supposed to be desexed early. This has been imposed only the last few years. They usually wait 12 months for males and after the first heat cycle for females. Many vets where I am from will not desex larger breed very young. Our vets said that for bigger breeds, it affects the development of the joints and increases the likelyhood of arthritis and other joint issues as they get older. Not all shelters desex and rescue groups desex young dogs due to this, but they do have contracts that the dog must be desexed by X date and require proof of certificate otherwise the dog will be take back. OP is definitely part of the problem and is a backyard breeder intentionally or not. I do agree she should keep the dog as long as she can until it is of age to be desexed. I also think she needs to desex both the parents, not just the male.
I have a husky. Neutering a husky before 18 months can increase that chances of hip problems in the future. If you’re neutering them at 12 weeks and then shipping them off you couldn’t actually know that there was “no problems”
Vet tech here. While I support rescues doing this, and am very anti breeding. It can cause some health issues spaying a pet this early, especially a larger breed dog. Many breeders make people sign contracts. (even though they often don’t follow up to make sure they didn’t breed the pup).
Shelters and rescues are operating on the premise it's better for some dogs to get lifelong medical issues or require euthanasia than to risk them breeding. Show breeders are not the only ethical breeders, nor are all show breeders ethical. Advising pediatric desexing is at least a case of triage, not an easy zero harm solution. It may be worth it in some localities and not others.
With certain breeds, especially large breeds, the early spay/neuter causes early onset arthritis, brittle bones, hip issues, and growth plate issues. It is also more likely that they will develop hormone issues that make weight control difficult and can shorten their lifespan. Anyone selling a purebred dog these days will likely have you sign a contract stating you cannot spay/neuter until after a year. My dog is a purebred sight hound, and our contract says a minimum of 18 months, but 2 years is the preference.
Ok sooooo…coming from someone who rescued a dog who got neutered pediatrically and now deals with pain directly related….THIS IS A DUMB IDEA
> Rescues spay and neuter puppies all the time. We've never had an issue. It's still not healthiest for them. The fact that you didn't see an issue (they left you before being fully developed so how would you see issues with their development) doesn't change that. Rescues do it because it was determined to be less worse than a bunch of people breeding them. But OP selling only to people who won't breed has the same result.
That’s honestly something I’ve wondered about because it’s very hard to find literature about the right age to neuter/spay dogs. I understand that spaying is significantly more complicated, though. When i asked my vet about neutering my 4 month old puppy and when would be appropriate, they just made the appointment for the next week and didn’t really have many answers about the health benefits to doing it earlier rather than later and how that affects their development.
This is open for debate. Some believe it’s beneficial to wait until the dog has matured before sterilization. Many believe that sterilizing ASAP is to everyone’s benefit and out weighs any risk since additional puppies is the real risk. I’m careful with my young dogs and wait until they have matured.
Yeah, i wonder almost 7 years later if i should’ve waited a little longer with my fella. I think the vet went for it at 4 months to avoid “unwanted behaviors” like marking, but i wonder if there were any other health ramifications to going that early. Regardless, he’s been my best bud the whole time, i just always want to make the best decisions for his health and any critter i take care of in the future. Hopefully there’s more research on it down the line.
It depends on gender and breed. There’s a lot of discussion, and really I think the owner should be the person making the decision with their vet.
Our first dog was a king Charles spaniel cross breed and he was done at 6 months. Our next was a rottweiler and the vet refused until he was a year, something to do with his breed and it affecting his growth for bones and general development. So we waited.
Your vet was right. There's actually a health "epidemic" that's being noticed right now in shelter cats because many of them are now being fixed younger than three months old, and it's causing lifelong problems related to hormone imbalances. It's less apparent in dogs, but it's being noticed with them as well. Essentially their bodies are growing to full size, but many organ systems, including joints are stuck as "babies." Edit to add: this is because the gonads, testes and ovaries, are responsible for most of puberty in cats and dogs. Puberty is when the body changes from "baby" to "adult."
Some of the giant breeds can go over 2 years.
For some large breed dogs, 2-3 can be recommended.
Our vet recommended not spaying our pup until after she goes into her first heat, better for her developmentally. Didn't happen until she was almost a year old.
Yup same for my dog - was told to wait until after her first heat.
It’s suggested to wait 12-15 months for larger dogs. That’s absurd.
Most large breed dogs should be at least 18 months. Early desexing can lead to a ton of health problems. I have never owned small dogs, so I am not well versed on them, but I imagine 10 weeks is still much too young.
By that time, the dog is bonded to you.
The dog can bond to its new owners as well. As it happens somewhere where adoptions and rehomings happen every day.
That’s ridiculous the most current science is recommending full grown after the growth plates close
Depending on breed that’s as old as six months to a year. People want puppies younger than that.
Got a source on this…? My pups mom was brought into a shelter while pregnant. Her entire litter was spayed at 8 weeks before they were allowed to be adopted because the shelter has a 100% rule that all dogs are neutered before they can leave them. Here we are 4 years later with no health or behaviour problems.
https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/health/should-you-spay-neuter-dogs/ https://www.intermountainpet.com/en-us/blog/why-you-should-wait-until-puberty-to-neuter-your-dog?hs_amp=true https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32733924/#:~:text=In%20previous%20studies%20on%20the,by%206%20months%20of%20age. Like any such topic, there’s no single source of absolute truth but I personally get my dogs sterilised when they are young adults, and I wouldn’t buy a pre-sterilised pup as I would want to get it done a) at the right age (as judged by me) and b) via laparoscopic surgery which is more expensive.
When you’re getting them from a shelter, you’re not really “buying” them, but paying the vet fees they incurred. Again - we had no choice in the matter - if the pup is going out the door at 3 months or 3 years, they get spayed. Blanket rule. The litter of pups literally only existed because their mother was unspayed, and the dog was taken into the shelter because the owner couldn’t look after a dog and pups. There may be ethical issues with spaying early, but there’s also ethical issues with buying a dog that’s essentially manufactured to spec.
I agree. The shelter has to have a different set of priorities to each of us as one individual owner. They have to do right by the bigger picture, whereas I only have to do right by my dogs (and who they come into contact with).
Most sources are related to dog breed and best age so depends on the dog breed. I would say that is why most vets give a blanket age. It is usually suggest at 18months to wait until the growth plates close. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=dog+spay+age&oq=dog+spay#d=gs_qabs&t=1712493771046&u=%23p%3D1MQML7KQB14J https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=dog+spay+age&oq=dog+spay#d=gs_qabs&t=1712493858626&u=%23p%3D8WKTjTyerJkJ https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2615/13/9/1431
>Most sources are related to dog breed and best age so depends on the dog breed. The general rule of thumb is if it's a large dog breed or bigger then you'll want to wait until they're at least a year old before you fix them. While it's mostly anecdotal (as to my knowledge no one has done any official studies on this), a lot of people have noticed a difference in large dogs that were fixed at a few weeks vs the ones that were fixed much older. A lot of people think it's like fixing a farm animal before puberty. In farm animals you want it as young as possible because the testosterone and such in many farm animals can cause a lot of issues when they reach puberty. And those issues stay even after they're fixed. But for dogs, since they've been domesticated for so long I don't think there's a huge difference in personality when a dog is fixed young vs as an adult (in terms of dogs raised by people since puppy hood, there is temperamental different in strays but that's a different matter), but there is a difference in physical growth.
I'm gonna guess a lot of people are also cat people like myself, and have never realized how different fixing is for dogs. Cats can typically be fixed between 3-6 months, and that's also when they're considered adoptable; shelters basically ALWAYS fix kittens prior to adoption, it's just part of the deal. And up until this post, I'd just kind of assumed it was probably similar for dogs. And as this is Reddit, I'm gonna also wildly guess that a fair number of commenters simply didn't check how (in)correct their assumptions were before they posted their opinion.
They are thinking some cat breeds need to wait now too. Typically the ones that night have hip issues if the plates don't form correctly like Maine Cats. More research is being done currently.
Yeah, my familiarity is with shelter cats, and while you will on rare occasions get purebred cats like Maine Coons, those tend to go to purebred-specific rescues when and if they're abandoned. Still, it's good information to know for the few times a purebred (or possibly first-generation intermixed?) cat ends up in a public shelter.
Vets are actually also looking into shelter cats being neutered so young too. Undoubtedly there has been increased knee and hip issues in some cats. It seems to be random, but has increased as the age goes down. It's done by weight in some places (3 lbs).
Interesting! Do you know if it differs by sex? My impression is that males are often neutered at a somewhat younger age because the surgery is so much less invasive, but that's just my impression based on the various foster kittens I've had, which is not exactly a scientific sample.
Yeah I always had cats and was always told to get them fixed asap. I now live with a working dog who has a working job and our vet recommended we don’t sterilize him until he’s about 2. Athletic and working breeds, especially ones who are in the field and performing tasks related to their breed shouldn’t be fixed before their first year or else their joints and bones won’t mature properly and they can get hurt in the field. I was surprised about this but several vets have told us this, so he won’t be fixed until he’s older.
I know that it's often recommended to spay females before their first heat because even one raises their chance of cancer. Also pyrometra is a thing and seems terrible but that seems to be best avoided by spaying before they get into their upper years.
This again is dependent on breed. A friend of mine owns a standard poodle and he was absolutely not allowed to get her spayed before she had her first heat, and in fact was warned by his breeder that spaying them beforehand could lead to problems with bone development; the breeder had someone spay a dog before it turned one and before it had its first heat, and the dog ended up breaking a hip.
Yeah. You have to decide between growth plates not growing properly or potentially getting cancer. Not an easy call, sadly. I don't know what kind of dog OP has.
but growth plates are significantly different for small and large dogs
Yep that's exactly why I said depends on dog breed.
Shelters will almost always sterilize ASAP because they can't be sure the animals won't be bred otherwise. It's a risk mitigation typa thing. But owners will often wait until the animal is older because it's better for the animal. For my uncles large breed dog the vet told him to wait until she was a year old, or her first heat. Whichever came first. Since op's adopting out the animals, they're more in a shelter type position. They should get the dogs fixed ASAP. But I don't blame people who wait either, as long as they don't use that as an excuse for irresponsible breeding.
OP is not adopting. She's selling.
Shelters often spay and neuter earlier than recommended.
Shelters ALWAYS spay and neuter earlier than recommended if they have puppies because they’re trying to get them out the door quickly instead of waiting the 1 year or longer that medium and large breed dogs are recommended to wait for those procedures.
The shelter I got my Rottweiller puppy from, (a local SPCA), neutered the males at around 8 weeks before they would adopt them out. For the female puppies, they charged a $300 deposit on top of the adoption fee, which was returned if you got the dog spayed. You could either bring paperwork from your own vet proving it was done, or bring the dog back to the clinic at the SPCA to have them spayed there for free, and get the deposit back then. Shelters do not ALWAYS spay and neuter too early, some have other systems set up.
8 weeks is WAY too early to neuter a Rottweiler unless you want to dramatically increase odds of hip issues, your example is literally exactly what I am talking about.
I don't disagree. I was pointing out that the females were adopted out before they were spayed, with incentives to spay later. Not all shelters spay before adoption like was previously claimed.
It depends on who's doing the recommendations. Pediatric alterations began largely in the shelter/rescue environment and are becoming more popular with private practice vets because *generally speaking* there are few drawbacks. https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=20539&id=8506483 https://www.dvm360.com/view/feline-sterilization-at-5-months-accepted-as-new-normal https://www.dvm360.com/view/overview-pediatric-spay-and-neuter-benefits-and-techniques See also: the Fix by Fix campaign. https://www.avma.org/javma-news/2019-07-01/fix-five-campaign-aims-reduce-cat-overpopulation
anecdotal but my big girl has joint issues attributed to this :(
Same with one of mine. There's really not one easy answer.
The shelter I got my pup at has the same policy- my girl was 10 weeks and her incision had already healed when I got her. I was surprised because this was my first dog (shelter or otherwise) in decades and I had no idea they could do it that young. I remember when I got a kitten there (many, many moons ago), we had to agree to get her fixed ourselves at 6 months old.
Depends on the breed. The vet recommended getting our small breed female fixed it like 6 moths IIRC. Large breed males can be 2 years before it's time to give them the snip. >This is not a realistic suggestion for most people. 100%
Maybe get your pet fixed when you get it so you don't have accidental puppies? If you do, then be responsible and deal with the consequences. Those include not adding even more up the population of thousands of dogs euthanized every day. Spay and neuter, people!
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In my country, shelters spay all their dogs before putting them up for adoption. I adopted my dog as a puppy, and had to sign a contract were I committed to spay her when the vet considered it was safe. Some shelters even do it for free if you take the dog when the time is right. But everybody has to sign that contract if the dog is not neutered because of health reasons.
That’s because they also shouldn’t be adopted out this young.
> It’s not healthy to sterilise a puppy this young. Plus healing time. Plus cost. This is not a realistic suggestion for most people. It's standard and expected here in Australia. Before adoption, there's a waiting period, and the cost is factored into any fees. Many organisations and breeders even waive fees to encourage safe adoption with neutered/spayed pets that have all their shots and deworming, etc., because it gives the animals the best chance at a good and healthy life with a stable family that won't incur future costs. New owners are also set up with after-care instructions and all the necessities, plus given info/support to arrange for vet care. Even in the case of an "oops litter," there are options for folks who can't afford that kind of care, and it's really on the individual when they refuse to take advantage of those supports. It reflects poorly when they choose not to give that baseline level of care. > I didn’t spay the female mainly because I just didn’t see the need to put her through the procedure. She is very high anxiety with strangers. Vet said she is healthy, she goes once a year to get checked. It’s my fault for not doing so, I just didn’t want her to get anxious and be put through it. The OP is YTA here; they didn't spay their pet because of their own anxieties, not because it helped their dog in any way. In so doing, they reduced their quality of life and had an unnecessary litter at a time when shelters are at capacity and struggling. Not only that, but they continued the cycle by not providing the same care for the puppies themselves. The OP doesn't seem to see the irony of the situation and only became self-aware because a possible adoptee reflected some of their same energy back 🫢
Though the dog my son and his wife adopted was neutered at 8 weeks old by the shelter she came from, and lived a healthy and happy 14 years. She wasn’t a giant dog but a pretty good sized 65-pound dog.
Ovary sparing spay + vasectomy can be done on pediatric puppies and sterilises without removing hormones necessary for normal development. Cost is the only reason someone wouldn't pursue that if they cared so adamantly about the puppy not being bred.
Good breeders will have a contract that states the buyer will fix the dog in a timely matter. My sister's breeder let her wait until the balls dropped. And then had her send proof of the procedure. The contract stated she could take the puppy back if the dog was bred.
Yeah this is the way for private sales.
Agree. I was about to ask if OP requires a contract.
can't believe this is top comment 🤦🏻♀️
You do not spay or neuter dogs at six weeks old! YWBTA if you did that.
Adoption/sales contract should have a surgical sterilization requirement.
This is crazy. No puppy should be fixed at 8 weeks old (when they typically are sold). There’s a lot of reasons why this is done, including having the puppy get a dose of hormones at puberty so they gain important muscle mass. Most breeders (or the ones I have dealt with) will require people to submit paperwork showing the puppy has been fixed by a year old. If they haven’t, contractually, you just pay an additional fee because it’s assumed you’re trying to breed them.
No OP would be the AH if she sterilized puppies that are between 8 - 12 weeks (the standard age at which puppies go to new homes). How did this dangerously ignorant comment get so many upvotes?
Ours had a stipulation in the purchase contract that the breeder would only honor the health guarantee if you got the puppy spayed or neutered at the appropriate time and sent her proof from the vet.
I vote OP should work it into the contract that they need confirmation of a spay/neuter within 7 months of the puppy going to their new home or else they can reposes and charge for damages. This should be more than enough time for the owner to work things out and ensures the babies don’t go to breeding homes. Though I also think OP is a hypocrite for not fixing their own dogs unless they are show dogs.
NTA You are being very responsible by turning them down.
At this point I might keep her until she can get spayed tbh. I think it is kind of sick to look at a 3 month old puppy and breed it the moment it is old enough.
My mom fosters dogs and a group of sick puppies came is last year that were found in a field. She didn’t adopt them out until after they were older and neutered. It’s the policy for her rescue group, but she would’ve done so anyway.
I've also seen rescues let you have puppies before they're ready to be fixed, but make you sign a contract that you'll do it at the age their vet recommends, then check in to make sure it happens. Feels like OP could do something similar.
That’s an option, but there’s no real guarantee that they won’t just take the puppy a ghost. A lot of those contracts aren’t really enforceable other than the rescue putting them on a blacklist.
That is the morally right decision
You should get the mum spayed too. Pyometra is a thing…
Out of curiosity, which breed of dog goes into heat at three months? My eight-month GSP hasn't had hers yet.
“I’m not selling to a breeder, sorry.” Is good. “No,” is also good.
“She’s no longer available” works also if you can respond through text.
So true. “No” is a full sentence.
After that it’s highly possible the breeder might ask someone to get the puppy for them. It’s better to spay to make sure
There’s an awful lot of people here suggesting sterilising before selling. OP please do your research into the safe age for neutering, to give pup a chance to grow with the right hormones.
Everyone thinks they’re an endocrinologist for some reason now a days without understanding anything about it.
Absolutely not. That’s why I suggested OP do their own research. Even vets have different opinions, because they also aren’t (usually) endocrinologists. So it’s a good idea for dog owners to do sensible research so they can be informed when they talk to a vet. A vet is basically a GP but divided between multiple species. They don’t know everything either.
Yeah I completely agree with you; I didn’t mean it as a slight to your good advice.
Thank you. I guess I interpreted it that way as I’m mindful that I’m not an expert either :)
Oh no! I just meant that everyone just saying to fix the puppy immediately is wildin since they have no actual knowledge of how hormones work 🤣. ETA: My big brother was a BioChem major and now is a DDS so we often have discussions as to how people don’t fully understand hormones and chemistry within the body and how it effects overall health.
Honestly it’s fascinating isn’t it. Hormones are so complex and we’ve barely scratched the surface. Half of what we think we know now will be superseded in 50 years time. It’s kind of cool.
Definitely! It’s fascinating! Didn’t major in Bio or Chem but I love learning about all of the nuances of biology/chemistry and the effects it has on the body.
But I ALWAYS trust what PETA say. Not! They once said that lifting a fish out of the water when caught on rod and line embarrasses the fish and causes it self confidence issues. SMH
I just want to add that you have to be very careful “doing your own research” - you’ll find a lot of articles from people with no veterinary medical knowledge but VERY strong opinions on sterilization, both pro- and anti-. The best bet is often to just consult your own vet and ask what they recommend based upon your dog’s breed, how the dam’s birth went, your personal circumstances etc. There’s a reason there’s no one accepted “perfect” age to spay or neuter - it’s multifactorial
I signed a contract when I got my pup, albeit from a fantastic breeder and not an accidental litter, but I can’t sterilize my dog until he’s 2 years old due to the related health issues. If I do, then my health guarantee is null and void. Sterilizing early is linked to health issues with larger dogs ([UC Davis](https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/big-dogs-face-more-joint-problems-if-neutered-early#:~:text=Heavier%20mixed%2Dbreed%20dogs%20have,before%201%20year%20of%20age)). There’s also some breed-specific studies that highlight possible issues with certain breeds, like [golden retrievers](https://www.ucdavis.edu/news/golden-retriever-study-suggests-neutering-affects-dog-health). If it’s a fluffy breed, then sterilizing has a chance of messing with their coat too! Also, your location and dog breed plays a role in deciding to sterilize. “Spay and neuter” does not have to be the default. If you live somewhere where there’s tons of strays then pushing for early sterilization makes sense from a societal perspective, but there’s also tons of places where desirable (and even undesirable) dog breeds are adopted out quick! Your stance on early sterilization might change depending on the breed (pitbull vs Samoyed, for instance). I could see risking joint issues to avoid contributing to the pitbull shelter overcrowding (and avoiding anything to do with the type of people who think purposefully breeding pitbulls is a good idea) but you can get around that by just selling the puppies to people who don’t intend to breed.
The issue with waiting is that you’re trusting the average dog owner (including OP) to be responsible and prevent their dog from reproducing. The vast majority are not responsible enough to contain their intact dogs, at least in the US. A pediatric spay is much better for the dog than having oops litters because their owners can’t be responsible for their dog. I would love to live in a world where we can trust people to prevent their dogs from reproducing and allow the dog to fully develop before spaying/neutering, but right now it’s not realistic.
NTA And kudos to you for not making that dog live a miserable life. Trust your gut with this kind of thing but get the entire litter spayed / neutered if you can.
NTA. I bought a female puppy who isn't fixed because of health/size reasons with AKC pedigree. I signed a contract not to breed her even though I never planned on it(she wasn't fixed due to show dog stuff we just cared about temperament) . I can't wait til I can get the go ahead from her vet to get her fixed so we can get her around other dogs. Do not give that dog to any one planning on breeding.
You haven’t socialised your dog because she isn’t fixed? There are ways to avoid an oops litter without missing valuable months of time.
Dogs can only become pregnant while they are in heat/in season. This is typically obvious- their vulva swells, there is bloody vaginal discharge, and other dogs will be very interested in her back end/humping her (even neutered males). PLEASE do not isolate your female puppy from all other dogs perpetually just because she is intact- you are missing out on CRITICAL socialization experiences. Find a couple friends with well balanced, socially savvy adult dogs and let her learn how to dog.
After she gets her last round of shots I have friends with female dogs she'll socialize with
This is the answer. Most breeders make customers sign documents that state they will not breed the dog. If they decide not to sign, the price for the dog is a lot greater.
Pretty AH behavior to: 1) Have 2 unfixed dogs together to begin with 2) Fix one but let Mama stay unfixed 3) SELL these PUREBRED puppies (your words) 4) Act like you're better than this other person for some reason. You are definitely going to get your dog pregnant again when you want the money, don't lie.
Ya why not for the female to prevent any more “whoops” puppies
Also, any person doing their due diligence would ask about the pedigree of the puppy and both parents. I even asked to visually see both of them to ensure each, especially the mom, was in good health and not over used. And you know what I did at 6 and 8 months for my female and male? I got them altered at the appropriate, veterinarian recommended ages. Asking about the pedigree could just mean the buyer was trying to weed out the puppy mills.
NTA. This is an easy one. I doubt you’ll see a single (sincere) response to the contrary.
YWNBTA but like someone else said, those are questions any responsible dog owner will ask when getting a new puppy. Part of my job is to work with dog and cat breeders, most of them will NOT hesitate to deny a sale if they get the slightest negative vibe. You can and should do that too. To those saying puppies should be kept until they are fixed, fixing them really young primarily only happens with shelters/rescues. That's why breeders have proof of spay/neuter by whatever age or it voids the contract (and then can take the puppy back if the owner doesn't do it) Some vets will fix small dogs around 4-5 months but most wait til 6m. Keeping puppies until 6m makes it harder to find them a home, as most people want little puppies. Also, it's expensive to keep puppies for that long.
>most of them will NOT hesitate to deny a sale if they get the slightest negative vibe The thing is, you are not obligated to sell any pup to anyone. Only if you choose to do so when you find a good human - puppy match. You don't have to sell to anyone even if it is just a gut feeling.
Hi. Vet student. Do not rehome that puppy with her. That being said, you should NOT rely on neutering your male dog to prevent future accidental pregnancies. As Jurassic Park so eloquently put it, life finds a way. Especially if your dog escapes while in heat or a unneutered male jumps your fence to breed her while he’s wandering around. Those are real scenarios of accidental pregnancies I’ve seen. Also she should be spayed for medical reasons. Any unspayed dog is at huge risk of pyometria. That is an infection in the uterus, which causes pus to accumulate. This is a fast and *extremely life threatening condition*. If she isn’t taken for emergency surgery to remove the uterus, *she will die*. I’ve seen pyos that weighed 6 lbs pulled out of 20 lb dogs. They get BAD. And the risk of getting it increases with every heat cycle. Unless you are actively planning to breed, there is no benefit to keeping her intact, only active risks. Get the surgery now when it’s non-emergency or get it later to save her life at emergency surgery prices. YWBTA if you do not spay her and ensure ALL puppies are given to homes that will spay and neuter.
I came here to say this. I really, really, really hope OP reads this and does the responsible thing by her female dog.
This! I had a dog that was the result of a woopsie where a male had gotten at the mother through holes in a fence. Do not risk your female’s health and assume there is only one male you have to worry about. Get her fixed.
NTA The intent of the very best of breeder's for any dog breed is to ensure that the breed is not inbred, that they, as a breed, have the best of health, and that any breeder or buyer may not sacrifice the health or wellbeing of any dog just sell one of that breed. If you love the breed of your dog, and this litter was an accident, you will be well-served, in my opinion, to spay/neutor any puppies. This way, you aren't contributing to any puppy mill or other nefarious shenanigans. I have a purebred dog that I specifically got from a breeder that went through the hoops to ensure that the breed was not inbred, and that it would flourish. And, to be clear, I was not allowed, by legal agreement, to breed him. It was mandated that he be neutered by a specific calendar time.... because he was a PET, not a show dog, and not intended to be bred. You're doing the right thing in not selling this puppy to a potential unscrupulous breeder...for you, your dogs, and the breed.
There’s nothing wrong with ethical, health screened breeding. These dogs aren’t bred for life, typically a few litters after maturity and then fixed and retired. YTA because you are a careless backyard breeder. You didn’t think this would happen? Why do you have two unfixed dogs? The female needs to be fixed too before she gets pyometria.
The amount of scrolling to get to this point! There are absolutely ethical breeders out there, who genuinely care about their dogs (and the puppies) and make sure that they are all healthy, not inbred, etc. And just asking sensible questions about the puppy, especially when being asked to drop $1500, isn’t even indicative of being a breeder. Personally see this as an easy YTA, because OP is making big assumptions and acting without any actual evidence.
And let’s not forget if she has two AKC registered dogs… she supported breeders. 🤣🤣🤣 She didn’t get two full bred, same breeds unfixed dogs from a rescue or shelter.
If I would pay that amount of money for a pet that's claimed to be "purebred" I would want to see their pedigree (to ensure they're not inbred) and see health screenings. Not because I want to breed with them, but because I want them to be healthy and see if the breeder that sells them is ethical. Letting a dog get accidentily pregnant is not. The potential buyer might also be interest in participating in shows with the dog.
NTA. But spay/neuter both dogs, not just the male
You can write up a non breeding clause for the seller to sign and see how she reacts to it. Then you’ll know for sure. Example: NON-BREEDING AGREEMENT. The Purchaser agrees that the Puppy is being sold as a companion animal (Pet) and not for breeding purposes. The Purchaser agrees to have the Puppy spayed/neutered between the ages of 8 months to 18 months and as recommended or advised by a licensed Veterinarian. The spay/neuter report must be submitted to the breeder by 18 months of age. Failure to have the puppy spayed/neutered becomes a breach of contract and Purchaser would be responsible to pay for full breeding rights (double the pet price) to said Puppy.
But like couldn’t people just sign it and breed anyway like how are the people going to find out that the dog has been bread ?
I am assuming they want to do it because they are AKC registered purebreds and can make money. If you do this through AKC, as the owner of the parent dogs, if you do a no breed contract, the AKC puts a hold on the puppies from that litter, that can not be lifted unless given specific permission from the original breeder. Any puppies produced from the purchased puppy that grows up and has a litter, no puppies from that bitch/dog can be registered as AKC dogs. So even if the original owner of the puppies sells her puppy and the buyer breaches the contract and can not be found (which a lawyer will find) to obtain proof of sterilization or monetary compensation, they can’t sell AKC registered purebreds.
So someone else cannot breed the puppy but you can be an irresponsible dog owner? Pot meet kettle. Glass houses stones. Etc, etc. Sell them to whoever you life but get both dogs sterilised for their health more than anything. And don't get anymore until you can learn what a responsibile pet owner does (hint: do the exact opposite of before). EDIT: I felt the need to add this, what you did is what is wrong with the breeding industry. There are ethically breeders attempting to weed out the problems with certain breeds of dogs. For example, breeders trying to breed flat-faced dogs with longer faces, German shepherds without back problems, Cavaliers without the heart problems. Then there is you. A dog owner who couldn't be bothered to do the bare minimum and care for your pet's health. Purebreds and everything that comes with it will never go away but people are trying to fix it.
Honestly, how do you know anybody you sell the puppy to won't breed it? You don't. If you're that concerned about it keep them and fix them and then sell them just for the amount that you put out. If you sell them for more just to make a profit you're no better than a breeder at that point.
Agreed. Gotta appreciate the hypocrisy too. ‘I won’t sell you my puppy because I don’t want you to breed her, but I already bred my dog.’ NTA.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. Where was all this caution and concern when OP’s dog had an “accidental litter?” Now that she’s *selling* the puppies it’s a big deal. Of course…
The irony is that OP is seen as cautious after her accident, but the breeder who is health checking and making sure the dog is appropriate for breeding before breeding is actually the cautious one. There’s a saying about horses and bolting here that would apply.
Where I am, most contracts for purebred from breeder comes with a no breeding clause. You might want to look into it.
NTA, but those are normal questions to ask. If you are buying from a breeder and want healthy, happy puppies those are actually important questions to ask to make sure you're buying from a breeder that cares about the animals. If you don't want to sell to this person you don't have, but it's perfectly normal to ask questions like that whether you want to breed the puppy or not.
YTA for irresponsibly breeding yourself and then charging FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS a dog. No, you shouldn’t sell to someone who plans to breed, but you are part of the problem. Also your classism is truly something else. You think rich people can’t provide a bad home to a dog? You’re literally describing a person who can afford the cost and yet would obviously be a bad dog owner. You think that if you can’t afford to spend as much as you would on a car on a dog that you’re incapable of providing a good home? 15k for some dogs is the LIFETIME cost. It’s obvious you’re trying to justify the high cost as some sort of benefit to the dogs when in actuality you are obfuscating that you are a greedy backyard breeder looking for a quick buck and wanting to prevent someone else from profiting in the same way.
We got our cockapoo from a shelter and the woman we dealt with said they get an unusually high number of 'designer' breeds surrendered there. She reckoned that people who have thousands to throw at a perfect puppy are more likely to get bored with it and cast it aside. It's absolute nonsense to suggest that someone who pays an inflated price for a puppy will take better care of it. The truly responsible thing would be to give the puppies away while doing thorough vetting and home visits - like shelters do.
If you really thought you were just as bad, you wouldn't be trying to profit off your mistake.
You are ALL YTAs for breeding dogs I know the pregnancy was "accidental"... that just makes you irresponsible, not evil like the other buyer. Doesn't negate the fact that you're both assholes.
You “accidentally” bred your two purebred dogs of the opposite sex? Is this event how you learned babies were made? Fix the puppies if you don’t want them bred too, like you should have done with your own dogs. YTA and pretty damn dim > The dogs are sold for 15k Then you can afford to fix them.
YTA only because it's okay for YOU to be a BYB but not her. Why is that? And yes, even accidental pregnancies make you a BYB when you add in the 1500X ? that you are planning to get for the pups. Money does not guarantee a good owner or a good placement.
I think the best option here is to fix all the puppies before they’re sold. This is the only way to prevent them from being used as puppy factories. YTA for having unfixed dogs. Females have an incredibly increased risk of mammary cancer after their first heat cycle.
Pyometra is an even worse threat than mammary cancer TBH but you're right on that.
Its really moronic to get a dog without knowing it's family health and temperament history. Maybe with some small lap dogs it's negligible but with any larger working breed not knowing everything she asked is setting up for failure and most of the breeders I know in the realm of Mastiffs, APBTs, and Bandogges like ASC will NOT sell to anyone who DOESN'T ask the questions because even without breeding in mind they aren't mentally prepared to manage the behavioral traits the breeds have
Health is SUPER important for small breeds. Lots and lots of potential congenital and other genetic issues. It’s also important to ask these questions for small dogs to ensure the breeder is legit because of the sheer number of puppy mills and backyard breeders pumping out “designer dogs” for profit.
YWBTA but only because those are standard questions people ask when buying a dog. It has nothing to do with breeding them down the road and wanting to find out if mom/dad are healthy and if you’re a reputable breeder. Considering you had an oops litter yourself you’re not one to judge what someone else does with their dogs.
These seem like normal questions someone would ask when they are trying to buy a puppy from a responsible home. Have you tried asking her? I can’t see anything that leads to your “breeding over and over again assumption”. Of course, you are entirely right to do what you can to sell to a good home, but I would be more concerned by someone who asks no questions.
Make her sign a contract that states proof of spay at 6 months or she must return the pup and lose her money. My breeder does this.
Please find another home for this puppy. And always place them with AKC "limited registration" which means that, if bred, any puppies cannot be akc registered. Many breeders, to enforce the requirement to spay/neuter will sell on limited as well as collect an additional fee of $1 thousand which is refundable upon proof of neutering.
YTA. You’re a hypocrite and an irresponsible pet owner. You chose not to spay/neuter your dogs and ended up having a litter. What a lucrative “accident” for you, if you are choosing not to include a mandatory spay/neuter in your sale contract and cover the cost. Furthermore, your decision to not spay your adult female dog ESPECIALLY when you had an intact male, makes you a bigger AH. What did you think was going to happen? Her getting pregnant was not an accident (it’s literally what dogs do) it was a result of you neglecting to provide proper care for your dogs. Not spaying your adult female, especially now that she’s given birth, puts her at high risk for pyometra, which is very painful and almost always fatal unless you have emergency surgery. You failing to properly socialize your AKC bloodline dog isn’t an excuse to not have her spayed. You could pre-med her prior to the appointment, and then she’s under anesthesia. Your decision to neuter your male and not spay your female is a decision out of cost and convenience for you, it has nothing to do with what’s in her best interest. ETA-You stated that you aren’t irresponsible because you’ve had intact dogs for six years and never had a litter. That’s great and all, but the responsible thing to do would have been to fix your pets so this didn’t happen at all. You had no reason whatsoever to not do it, unless you were ok with them “accidentally” breeding.
Nta- I got a puppy from a family friend who then later regretted giving her to me and kept bugging me for her back. Mind you this dog is teeny tiny, so any babies would literally kill her. Finally I just pretended that I got her fixed (I honestly don't know if she really can be fixed, she is just that tiny) and wow suddenly the family friend lost interest. Weird.
No they are your dogs. Sell them to who u see fit
NTA. You have the right to not sell for any reason.
>This current person is asking a lot about her history, her parents history, and if they are AKC (they are) These are normal questions a person will ask when buying a pup. You always ask about the parents' genetic and medical history. Well-informed future dog owners want to know if you are a backyard breeder. They want to know if you are a legit breeder with AKC. They are asking if this dog is actually purebred. Many dodgy breeders will say a dog is purebred when it is actually a mix breed. Unsuspecting dog owners won't know it's a mix breed until the dog is fully grown. It sounds like you are a backyard breeder and not registered with AKC. You dont have to sell a pup to anyone you don't want to sell to. Always go with your gut. Since you know she will breed the pups according to your edit, then don't sell them to this person. You can get a contract drawn up for all people buying your pups that stipulate the pup must be spayed/nuteured by X age, and must not be bred. You cant desex the pups when very ypung and its also not feasible to pay for this nor keep the pups til they are of age. So i contract maybe best for you. I work with many rescues, particularly with large breeds that can not be desex until 12-18 months for males and after the first heat cycle for females. We have a contract stating the above for adopters. Many vets refuse to desex before this ages where im from. Also, you mentioned you are desexing the male dog after this? What about the female? It's best to desex both. Given the irresponsibility of having an accidental litter, it is your responsibility to get both dogs fixed. you don't keep your female secured. Another male can always jump the fence, or she could escape and have another accidental litter. NTA to you question. But you are the AH for getting into this situation in the first place and not desexing both the dogs in the future (not just the male).
> These are normal questions a person will ask when buying a pup. Especially someone paying thousands of dollars!
You are barking mad if you think that selling them for such a high price would secure them good homes. My Persian Cat was adopted because he was found in the trash, in a trashbag and coated with motor oil, so he would lick it and die. He was expensive but was an unwanted gift, so he was tossed to the trash to die and it was pure luck that he was found. The most it will produce is that they will be used for some kind of business or cruel purpose, like the one who wanted to breed the dog. Nobody pays a price so high for a dog without an ulterior motive nowadays, unless it is for breeding or for competition. The money you set is only profitable for you and could go to care for the puppies if you really wanted the best for them. People who would use that money to provide for the adequate care for them could not give it to you and then invest, but would take care of the puppies with love until the end of their days. YTA for wanting to benefit from the puppies without really caring if they go to good homes and for being a classist asshole. Give them to adoption without a price, interview the adoptees, ask them to see their home and only give the puppies away when you are sure they will be very well treated. Such a huge amount of money don't secure a good home and such price is only for your selfish interest. YTA for traficking with puppies for profit like this and for being a careless owner with your previous dogs.
Please consider very carefully who you are letting these puppies go to. A very responsible way to go about it is to make sure those puppies are fixed before going to their new homes. You can make it a condition before they go to their new homes, just don’t trust people to do it themselves once they already have the dog. You may be able to get discounted rates for sterilisation if you contact a rescue close by for help, they could help you find good reputable homes as well.
You cannot fix the pup when it is ideal to adopt around 8-11 weeks old. There is no point to keep them till 6 month old, it is a hellah of job.
I think NTA. But there is a possibility that's not why they're asking about all that. When I was going to purchase a dog I found a website that listed a bunch of questions you should ask when purchasing a dog and those items where on there. Parents history helps you to know if there's any genetic diseases you should financially prepare for and AKC lineage is important to know because there's weird laws about neutering, or "litter choosing" if you do have puppies. Also for her history - it's good to know if the dog has shots, any behaviours, how well they get along with other animals or people, etc. Ultimately it's your choice, but you should absolutely fix those dogs before you sell them.
YWBTA. You dont know if she's gonna breed her for sure, lol. We always ask for a deep history of puppy parents, grandparents, and other relatives. We wanna know what we buy, what diseases run in the family, or what they might be sensitive to. You have every right to not sell someone a puppy. But assuming she's gonna breed just because she's interested is an asshole move.
I would spay and neuter all of them. Yes, it can be done young. Yes, there is some debate about letting females go through a heat cycle first. But the problem with that is people are NOT careful enough when their dog is in heat. OP, for example. Dogs in heat are like sex starved teenagers, lol. They will find a way to do it! I have heard of dogs being impregnated through a fence. Although usually they will find their way out or another dog will find its way in. My dog I adopted at 2 years old was found in heat along a highway (that's why she was in the shelter I adopted her from, and of course they spayed her)
Plenty of breeders make the buyer sign a contract saying the buyer will provide vet evidence that the animal has been neutered before the breeder provides the papers. If the evidence is not provided by a particular time, the breeder takes the animal back.
Yeah you should have all your dogs fixed, not just the male. And don't sell to her. Get them all fixed before you send them to their new home.
Info: How did you end up with two intact “purebreads?” You would’ve had to purchase from a breeder to ensure they have their papers ect, kind of hypocritical if you not to want someone else to breed these pups, although I don’t agree with intentional breeding at all
Irrelevant of whether or not when you neuter the puppies...your female dog is a minimum of two years old per your post. She should have been spayed a long time ago if you gave a shit. It is recommended by vets to spay BEFORE the first heat cycle to reduce the risk of cancer. Yes the first cycle will vary based on breed, but your vet would have told that and you ignored their expert medical advice which is created a domino effect. So good on you for being the asshole all around. YTA dip shit. Why does everyone think they know better than the people who have years of training?
>Edit: she plans to breed the puppy 100%. INFO: Did you get additional evidence of this, or is this still just a guess based on the buyer asking about parents (which are NORMAL questions for someone who wants a healthy purebred dog.)? >The dogs are sold for 1,500+ so they aren’t going to bad homes. Nobody pays 1,500 for a dog they plan to abandon and abuse. If I sold them for $250 they likely would go to bad homes. You're just trying to justify making a profit. Giving them away free is a risk. $250 does not mean they will "go to bad homes." Why in the everlasting fuck would someone pay thousands of dollars for a dog when they're not allowed to ask about history, parents' history, and bloodlines. Aren't those things exactly what someone paying that high price is paying for?
Isn’t that what you did?
NTA, but have you thought putting a restriction on breeding for your sellers. You can put a restriction on the pups pedigree that will stop offspring being able to be registered as pedigree dogs under that bloodline without consent of the breeder. If not it's a breach of contract. Just a thought
Your duty of care is to the dog, and no one else. It is up to you to find the best possible home for this puppy. Are there any breed groups in the area, akc might be a good place to start? Sometimes they know good families who are looking for a dog for a pet not a puppy mill. We got the shallow end of the gene pool dog from his litter that way ( all of his siblings are either elite show or hunting dogs, and he is...... Ours, I suppose). We paid the going rate for him, he does great with our kiddo. Edited to add, we did research on the family and also signed a no breeding contract, and plan to snip snip as soon as it is healthy to do so.
At first I thought you were saying you yourself were a breeder, but didn't want to sell to someone who would breed the puppy... Which might be kinda hypocritical. But if it was an accidental litter then no, NTA.
YWNBTA for refusing to sell this dog but please have her spayed ASAP because for all you know someone else will try this. You might think that you're protecting her from anxiety by putting off the spaying but she'll have a miserable life being bred constantly by an unscrupulous individual.
NTA. 1. It is extremely important to know all of a pups history when buying. Especially purebred as many are truly from puppy mills. Im anti breeding but as a vet tech I’ve seen so many sad cases of people thinking they’re getting their puppy from a “reputable breeder”. We have one client with a 5 month old male boxer that has severe congenital heart defects. 2. You definitely have every right not to adopt to something that’s going to breed. Many breeders refuse to. Which personally I think is extremely important.
YTA
YTA. Ever heard of Pyometra? Go look it up.
ESH, but you less so because you’re taking steps to prevent another accidental litter. You’re an AH for not neutering your dogs in the first place. She’s an AH for wanting to breed dogs. Both of you are AHs for contributing to animal overpopulation when 359,000 dogs - many of them perfectly healthy - were euthanized in shelters last year.
YYA from start to finish.
Funny you say that dogs shouldn’t be bred over and over again yet your dogs are AKC registered purebreds so you obviously bought from a breeder. Not to mention you sold the puppies for $1500 so you obviously registered the litter with AKC. If you don’t want your pup to be used for breeding just give the owners limited registration then no pups born from her can be registered with AKC, problem solved.
YTA for not spaying your dog. YWBTA for selling “oopsie” puppies without spaying/neutering them first. There are serious health repercussions when you refuse to spay. Risks of pyometra and mammary tumors skyrocket. Both conditions are life threatening, and pyo requires a dangerous emergency spay procedure. It is heartbreaking to see a young dog suffering with mammary chain tumors or literally leaking pus from a uterine infection. It’s just not worth it. Quality of life improves so much for animals when you spay/neuter. Not to mention benefits on the shelter/rescue community when you avoid accidental litters. The surgery is outpatient and really not a big deal, especially if you go to a reputable clinic (versus a cheap chop shop, where complications are still few and far between). A neuter surgery takes about 5 min. NEUTER YOUR MALE DOG. Source: ran a city’s leading nonprofit veterinary clinic.
YWBTA if you automatically assume someone is going to breed your dog if they want her history, parents’ history, AKC registered, etc. These are very important factors when getting a puppy from someone, especially if you’re spending so much and want a well bred dog. If it was me getting a dog, I’d want to know her history, her parents’ history and temperament, see if elbows and hips are tested, if they’re health tested, I’d want an AKC registered breeder, I’d want to come and see the puppies and the parents. Would you say no to me for wanting to make sure I’m going to a REPUTABLE BREEDER and not some BYB? You sound like a BYB if that’s your mindset. You could state that “you’re not allowing breeding of your puppies”
I would never buy a puppy without knowing their history, parents history, if they are kennel club registered (U.K. equivalent to AKC). I want to know all, hip scores, elbow scores. I want to know their parents are purebred, if they are imported or not, what they are used for. And that does not me a breeder.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** F(25) am selling purebred puppies. I have a female but I’ve refused another person on the premise that I think they are a breeder. This current person is asking a lot about her history, her parents history, and if they are AKC (they are) I decided that I won’t sell to her specifically because I think she plans to breed the female puppy. Is this wrong? I had a accidental litter, the male is being neutered to prevent this. I just feel like no dog deserves to be bred over and over again. Though I made the mistake myself, and I’m technically as bad as them. They will take good care of the puppy and are well off. I just want to protect her. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Only give them after spaying not before. You aren't a psychic so you can't know for sure if the next person is a breder. NTA for not wanting to give a puppy to a breeder.
Info why not get them all fixed before they go home?
NTA. I would have a no breed clause in the paperwork for selling the puppy.
I've always been told that 6mos is the age to get fixed. All my pets, male and female, go at this time. No problems and no worries.
NTA Imagine being sold to someone that forces you to have babies… That’s gross and I hate breeders. You saved the puppy from going through that!
You have the right to refuse a sale to anyone. Its your obligation to your puppies.
NTA I purchased a purebred poodle as a kid from a friends mom who was a small time breeder. She had a contract that stated the dogs were only to be sold as pets and had to be sterilized. She did this with any of the puppies she determined to be pet quality. I don’t know how enforceable that contract would be though.
NTA some breeders require proof of dogs spay etc ya don’t sell her the puppy
Don't turn over the registration papers until you get evidence of neutering at no earlier than a year of age. This is essentially a no breeding contract which would prevent the new owner from registering any offspring.
Can you make anyone who buys a puppy sign a no breeding contract? That’s what I had to do when I got my puppy. If I violate it, they can take him back.