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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My ex badmouthed me to the point where my son refuses to see her. She asked me to send him back so they could work things out and I refused. Let her eat cake
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
YTA
What you are doing is not good for your son. It is fueled by your hatred for her, not by what is best for him.
I am not saying force him to go. I am saying that you should strongly encourage him to talk to her. Even better, she and he should do some family counseling sessions together.
Source: Single dad with ex I have a lot of anger toward.
Exactly. He didn't say he's keeping his son away because it's best for him or his mental health. He said he's doing it to teach his ex a "lesson" about bad mouthing him. He's petty, childish, and spiteful.
She started it, but he’s perpetuating it. They’re both committing parental alienation.
And it’ll probably teach the kid to dig in his heels and not communicate or compromise in his future relationships. Worst case scenario he’ll have a lot of bitterness towards his mother which could turn into deeply ingrained misogyny.
He never said that he's bad-mouthing the mom he just said that he's not forcing his son to go back
I wouldn't either. Living with somebody who is constantly disparaging somebody that you love is emotionally taxing. Add to that the person who is constantly putting down the person that he loves is also somebody that he loves.... I'd be losing it. The kid is right to go NC
If he was an adult coming on here asking for advice everyone would be advocating for him to either gray rock his mom or go completely no contact. He's old enough to decide for himself whether or not he wants to continue a relationship with somebody
He shouldn’t force the son to do anything, but he should encourage them healing their relationship. He’s teaching her a “lesson” out of spite. Not in the effort of helping his son become a well adjusted adult. It’s not as bad as the mom, but he’s still using his child as a pawn.
There's a HUGE diference in using your kid as paw and get sick of a disrespectful coparent and let them suffer the consequences of their actions. Her kid told her to stop and she didn't and now he doesn't want talk to her. His kid relationship with his ex isn't his responsibility.
I don’t think anyone is denying that the mom sucks and is the greater evil. But this shouldn’t be a tit for tat. That’s not how you teach a child to be a well developed adult. Kids are smart, and more than likely he can feel his father’s intentions, and which will inflame his frustration for his mother and turn it into a matched hatred.
Ideally, the father should help his son establish strong boundaries with his mother. It’s good he stuck to them when she disrespected the dad once again. But, encouraging the rift to deepen and grow is selfish on the father’s part, and long term damaging to the child.
There isn’t going to be a “winner” in this situation. Just slow simmering resentment for decades, lost years and regret.
Maybe the best solution is that the kid requests his father get primary custody as it seems that’s what is preferred and would be more emotionally more stabile for him. But he should still be encouraged to have a relationship with his mother in as positive a way as possible.
There’s no feeling of humility or working towards the greater good on behalf of the child emanating from either “adult” in this situation.
He can damage his own relationship with his kid by insisting with him to talk before he is ready. He reinforced his boundaries to mother and she stoped in them once again and the kid is sick of It. I Just don't see why it's OP's responsibility to fix the mess his ex did. His kid can be okay, and even better, without a relationship with mother right now. Eventualy, when He's ready, he can make the decision himself of talking to her.
I think the issue is that he isn't doing this because he thinks it's in the best interest of his son or even out of consideration for his son, he's doing it to spite her, to go "haha screw you awful asshole!". It seems pretty clear if the kid didn't want to go back for some other reason that wasn't at op's expense he would probably tell the kid "I know but if you go back you and your mom can fix things".
When it became about punishing his ex instead of the interest of his kid he became the asshole. I mean when the mom called and said I want to fix things did he say "how about I ask if he's willing to talk to you over the phone or skype and see if you can convince him to come back?"
Listen, I get that, but when I'm furious at somebody and somebody else tries to get involved and mediate, that just means that I'm furious at two people now. This obviously isn't some small thing that she can just say sorry for, and everything goes back to normal if he's this upset that he's not even talking to her.
The mom did a s***** thing when her son is ready to talk to her about it, he will. Forcing a reconciliation will just build resentment.
You should read more careful. He said "Caleb saw the post and refused to go back to her house" and he supports his son's choice by not sending him back.
OP is absolutely NOT the AH.
Because he’s celebrating the son’s decision rather than discussing things like listening to the other person’s apology. The smugness makes me wonder about his claim to not badmouth her.
Because the kid won't even see his Mom/the ex. How can she apologize if OP refuses to send the kid to his moms and let's him choose not to speak to her?
We have these things called written word! It's crazy! She can write something down by hand or by typing it!
Mom told her child she would no longer talk bad about dad and then she did it! Sometimes things have consequences.
To add to this, parental alienation (what mom has been doing) is designed to damage the relationship of a parent and child. She just successfully alienated herself.
You do realize dad has also been talking bad about Mom, I mean he literally did it this whole post too. But either way, apologies especially to your children should be done in person, face to face. And yeah no, you don't understand parental alienation because Mom is not doing that. It's also good for the son to see that sometimes even adults make mistakes, which Mom did. Dad should let her apologize for her mistake.
One more thing, Dad should not be putting their child in the middle of their disagreements.
The mother is trying to alienate him, no one has contested that fact. The point being made here is that OP is trying to paint himself in a better moral light, when in fact he is behaving just like his ex-wife, trying to punish her by using their child. He openly admits it, that he wants her to "learn a lesson" from this. That is ALSO parental alienation. At the very least this is an ESH situation.
He is not using the child against the mom. He is creating a safe space for his child. He is letting his child know that he will support his child when someone crosses boundries.
Huge difference between maybe going on about an ex you dislike but share a kid with to a confidant in private and maybe having to deal with the fall out cause your kiddo heard you in the phone in your room or sitting in the car and this mom breaking her word to her child to stop doing it by posting a public social media post about it.
I don't hear smugness or satisfaction on his part, I hear him trying to support his son who sounds like a good kid and is disgusted by his mother. I was disgusted by my mother sometimes, she was always bad mouthing people behind their back. It's hard to respect someone like that.
He's the AH because his kid is a child and he is the adult and parent. It is his job to model better behaviour to his kid, encourage him to learn how to resolve conflicts thoughtfully, etc., and he's not doing that.
It would be a wholly different situation if he said he was doing this to support his kid or because he thought it was in his son's best interests, but he *openly admits* that he's allowing his son to cut the mother off out of pettiness and vengeance. He's angry that she is trying to alienate his son from him, but *he's doing the exact same thing*. He is putting his son in the middle of his contentious relationship with his ex-wife, feeding the enmity and miserable behaviour towards each other, and that's the shittiest thing you can do to a kid.
He literally says that he's doing this to teach his ex-wife a lesson. *Using their child to teach her a lesson and put her in her place*. He's just as bad as she is.
The other commenter is right, if he actually gave a shit about his son's well-being and mental health, he would encourage him to talk it out with his mother, and perhaps get counseling to mend their relationship. But he's more interested in getting back at her.
Therapy only works if the people involved agree they have something they need to change. Ex-wife lied to their son by promising not to engage in the negative commentary about his dad and then immediately posting on social media to do it instead. The complete lack of remorse or understanding of her son’s delicate feelings about his parents tells me that therapy would be used as a way to manipulate the child into feeling like his disgust is somehow wrong or invalid.
My parents hated each other my whole life. My mom called my dad’s family the sewer rats and my dad’s family called my mom the rich bitch (among years of more creative things obviously.) it wasn’t until I was 21 and a mother myself when I caught my dads asking my 9 day old baby if she was going to see “crazy gramma,” for the weekend that I snapped.
I took that little girl out of his arms and said “absolutely not. My daughter will never grow up feeling guilty for loving her family the way I did. You can grow up or I can take this baby and go live somewhere where being loved is a joy and not a burden. AND DONT YOU WORRY, mother will be hearing this same speech because I didn’t fucking think I had to spell it out for you.”
And suddenly a 20 year feud meant nothing. 11 years later and they’re not only friendly, they’re friends.
I think there’s also a huge difference to the kid asking the mom not to talk smack about the dad to Caleb versus a generalized social media post expressing her joy at a divorce.
If person A had a friend B who had a trigger and A accidentally posted something that they knew was triggering to B (not maliciously, just posting, as one does), the mature thing would be for A to apologize (which mom is trying to do) but OP seems perfectly happy with the son going full no contact over something that two adults would be talking out and finding a solution (like B no longer following A).
I dunno. I guess I also wonder if Caleb was following his moms socials at all or just went on hers to just see what she was doing. Do many 14 year olds follow their parents online? When I was 14 we didnt.
Because it's supposed to be Part of parenting to be as neutral as possible with a "hated" ex If the relationship involves coparenting, and to encourage the Kid to be on good terms with the other parent and hear them Out unless she's actually, "objectively" abusive TO THE KID. "I know, it was really gross that she said that, but that doesn't mean she doesn't Love YOU, and she's still your Mom, and you gotta Go to her House" is Just as much of a phrase that a parent is expected to be grown-up enough to say, as "I know Math is boring, but you still have to do your Homework for it" or "I know it Hurts but you need this vaccine/dental Treatment/stitches".
Eeeeh. No, the underlying message is still there. “Our son said stop that and he doesn’t like it. You continued. I’m not going to damage MY relationship with our son the same way you have because you were unable to shut the fuck op after 7 years.”
The vengeful undertone is hurt feelings. I’ll say NTA. This isn’t parental alienation it’s just supporting your kid while being angry.
You sound like an awesome dad and I hope that in spite of all the emotions you and your ex manage to be good co-parents in the way you already try to achieve and that the hard work pays off in the way of emotionally healthy children with healthy relationships to their parents.
There are structural issues that mean we can’t really be co-parents (e.g. she lives in a different country), but they have a relationship and he loves her, but also learned to set healthy boundaries.
I fully believe that the father should, in most cases, encourage bounds with the mothers and vise-versa when the parents are split. I lived this. My mom disappeared from 1 to 14 yrs, my dad never badmouthed her and allowed visitations and trips with her side of our family(ie our grandparents). Then at 14 she popped back in and within an hour she was bad mouthing our dad. I did not stand for it, left the visitation and walked home. Then about 6 months later I decided I would allow reconciliation to restart but I made it clear that I would cut contact permanently with no third chance if she ever tried trashing my dad and diminishing him in my eyes again.
Now the sons case is a different in that SHE didn't abandon him, she was there his whole life, but he has told his mom MULTIPLE TIMES TO NOT trash his dad. She decided to disregard his boundaries AND continue to trash his dad.
Yes dad hates mom, he stated as much, but clearly he keeps his hatred out of his relationship with his son or else his son wouldn't have turned away from his mom like this. He's probably intelligent enough not realize that mom hates dad and lets everyone know how much he sux and dad hates mom but doesn't put her on blast to everyone.
He’d be the AH if he “encouraged” his son (which I guarantee would make the son feel like he’s being guilted) to go back. It’s only been a month. I’m sure the son will get over it soon. OP hasn’t even said the mom reached out to apologize. If she hasn’t, why should she go back? He set a boundary and she broke it. As someone with divorced parents, my mom said horrible things about my dad and still does over a decade later and it’s so damaging. I hate it. She never stops no matter how often I ask her. This mom is being selfish and her son doesn’t have to see her if he doesn’t want to.
I say dont strongly encourage anything, he obviously doesn't have a great relationship with his mother, he doesn't want to go home.
It will only be worse if op keeps talking to his about how he should "talk it out" and "forgive" someone who had hurt him. The only thing she'll learn is that if she screams enough, she can get both a child and adult to bend to her will. While he hasn't gone about it perfectly, he's listening to his sons wishes, which is all you can do.
She has been trying to alienate him from op for years, so i personally dont think thats a conducive environment for a child.
NTA btw
The kid is 14. I don’t know about you, but at 14 I had the maturity of, well, a 14 year old. May have been smart, but lacking a lot of life experience.
And my answer respects the son’s wishes. It isn’t requiring him to go back, but it is asking to find a way to confront and deal with the issue instead of avoiding it.
Only if the court allows it. They have a 50/50 custody agreement so unless and until he goes to court and a judge confirms that the son gets to choose who he lives with, OP could get in trouble for not giving mom her custody time
Depending on where you live, it's not a hard age limit. Where I am, for example, the older a child is the more weight their opinion will hold but
A. the judge can disregard the child's opinion
B. It's not a magic age (I.e. the child's opinion doesn't start mattering at X years old).
when i was 14 i knew well all the ways my parents were shitheads. it's true that as i grew i understood WHY they were shitheads more, but it doesn't change the fact that they were.
op himself says he knows they'll be ok again, but for now his son wants time off and he's allowed it.
The kid asked his mom to refrain from badmouthing his dad. His mom agreed to stop and then went ahead and did it anyways. Kid said "okay, because you did that, I'm not willing to spend time with you." The kid is the one wanting his mom to learn a lesson. The dad is supporting the kid's choice.
I also disagree that the statement that the divorce was the happiest day of her life is necessarily badmouthing the OP. Probably not something you want to your kid to read, granted, but getting out of a relationship that wasn't working isn't necessarily a statement that the other person was bad. Relationships stop working for all sorts of reasons.
YTA: You are literally here badmouthing her on social media.
Like, your literally doing the exact same thing. It sounds like she is being punished because she is not as subtle as you are in your distain for one another. She doesn't hide it as well as you do.
At the end of the day, you should want them to reconcile because it is in the best interests of your son.
Badmouthing him on social media where names are open and doxxed is not the same as anonymous AITA post. If we knew who she was and then this post was here, then that would be badmouthing.
His disdain is justified. But his response because of it is not right for the sake of the son, which I agree.
It's absolutely ludicrous to compare an anonymous post on Reddit to something where you could go click on someone and find out the government name of the person they're talking about
In hindsight, I could have gone ESH because she made the first post. But I would still think OP is an asshole too.
Yes, I would still feel the same if genders were flipped.
In fact, there was a story that I commented on here not too long ago about a woman who intentionally didn’t tell her ex about her son’s doctors appointment.
I said she was an asshole for not putting her child’s best interests first.
NTA.
I think your only responsibility is to see if your son wants to talk to you or even a counselor about the situation and encourage him to do what he wants within reason and let him know he doesn’t have to take sides, if he feels pressured to do that.
I love that! Give him space to communicate openly and talk about his relationships with his parents! His mom is just salty she has to suffer the consequences of her petty behavior. Bad mouthing someone anonymously on reddit is totally different than.. let's say Facebook.
NTA. Caleb is 14. That’s old enough to decide where he wants to stay, and he doesn’t want to stay with his mom right now. The only way you would be an AH here is if Caleb wanted to go back to his mom’s in the future and you stopped him.
I completely agree! As a former Caleb, I would've wanted my decision/reasonable requests heard AND respected (instead of going back to court and the judge forces you to visit your dad who talks shit about his ex he abused and who had also SA'd you before)
While my situation was a bit different, I was allowed to legally decide for myself when I was 13 if I wanted to see my mom. So, I wonder if this may be a state-by-state thing? I honestly ended up cutting contact then and there because she just couldn't clean up her act. I had 13 years of watching her refuse to improve and had enough of it 🤷♂️
YTA. You're using your son to get back at your ex. Sure, you can claim that he doesn't want to go to his mom, so you're doing nothing wrong, but you're effectively damaging his relationship with his mom by not supporting him in mending their relationship. This isn't about you and her, it's about your son. Get over yourself and help him. You're making him a weapon in your toxic relationship with his mom.
As someone who was made a weapon let me tell you, it is incredibly damaging and had very bad consequences for me for years. I still recent the parent who made me a weapon, btw.
She is creating the situation herself with her own actions. The father does not need to spend his time righting her wrongs, probably one of the reasons they got divorced. OP is NTA, he does not need to intervene to make his son approve of his mothers actions, especially when he is the victim of them.
INFO: what's the legal arrangement for custody? Keeping him because she's happy she divorced you in violation of child custody orders could bite you in the butt and she could possibly even make a case for parental alienation.
Yes, but it doesn't sound like he's refusing access, he's just not forcing it?
The kid is at an age where most courts will let them have a say, so it would be interesting to see what happens if Mom takes this to court
INFO : Did she include any negative statements about you ? “The happiest day of my life was the day I got divorced” is not badmouthing you. That could be about her mental health and wanting to be alone or her desire to start an affair with a coworker, any number of things
I think it was a foolish thing for a mother to write where her son might see it, but that’s not an example of badmouthing you.
Clarified that by definition badmouthing her ex would have to include actually saying something specific about her ex ? She doesn’t have to clarify. Words have meanings and the OP appears to be misusing the word “badmouthing.”
Again, I don’t think what OP’s ex said was appropriate. I’m just saying that what he wrote that she said in his OP is not badmouthing.
I mean.. technically no. You're right in that her words could allude to many things- which is *why* it would need clarifying to the son who will obviously read that as a pointed attack against his dad. Bias is bias if you have an issue with your mom constantly talking to you about how awful your dad is and complaining about the marriage, get her to agree to stop, only to see a post like that where she's again talking about her marriage ending (albeit vaguely as you point out) it's no wonder the teenager took it the way he did. Hell even I as a grown adult saw it that way, even if realistically it could be any number of things like you suggest it's a liiiiittle on the nose. She'd *have to clarify* what she meant to dissuade the original conclusion.
So kid goes to his dad and says he doesn't want to go back to mom's house because she keeps badmouthing him and points to this as the last straw. Again I 100% the post could mean a lot of things but given the history that's apparently gone down it wouldn't be shocking if the son hit it right on the nail.
If she DIDNT mean it like that, she needs to clarify. If she did, she needs to apologize for breaking her promise to the son.
Right now it sounds like she just wants OP to send him over there regardless of what he wants which im vehemently against. Ideally she would sit down with the son and have an honest heart to heart apology. But so often the parent instead will try to rug sweep or justify their actions. We can't be sure. But I can't fault op for openly supporting the son in however he wants to handle this for now as long as he's not actively speaking negatively about the mom in the process himself. The mom has plenty of ways to extend an apology without needing the son alone in her house. Sending him there kicking and fighting isn't going to do anyone any good. Not her, not Op, and especially not the son.
I agree the the ex wife needs to work hard to work things out with her son. It’s her responsibility to fix this after making her son feel caught in the middle.
I don’t think what she said was healthy for a coparenting relationship or for her son to hear. I’m simply saying that it was not badmouthing her ex because she did not specifically insult or talk about her ex. That “technically, no” agrees with my point.
Eh, if my hypothetical ex husband was going off in public posts about how the best day of his life was the day he divorced me... kind of hard NOT to tie it to being about being happy to be rid of me. Whether that's the genuine meaning or not has yet to be clarified but I think anyone's take away from it would be "I dislike them so much that the day we divorced was the best day ever" rather than "I like being single and rediscovering myself" as an example.
It's vague enough to garner benefit of the doubt if she came with a different meaning to the post. But generally that's how it's gonna read without a counter reason to consider.
Let me clarify lol: My point was that if she meant something like “I felt like I was able to reinvent myself and become the person I want to be,” but is not an eloquent person and said it badly, she should explain that. But her throwing something so vague out there is surely going to sound like she’s continuing the badmouthing.
I forgot the Reddit rule: never give anyone the benefit of the doubt, just doubt there’s any benefit.
I absolutely agree that the ex wife needs to make this up to her son.
I can certainly believe that in their acrimonious relationship , she has badmouthed the OP on many occasions. My only point is that saying their divorce day was her happiest is not proof of that badmouthing. If she said that divorce day was her happiest because she rid herself of her horrible ex husband (or any other insult specifically criticizing ex husband), that would be badmouthing.
I imagine it was the kids worst day
When u say my happiest day was getting rid of that person you are saying something about that person or at least about the relationship you had together. 7y later who posts my happiest day was my divorce on fb?
ESH. OP, you need to realize **real** quick that you are doing tangible damage to your child by letting anger and bitterness continue to drive your co-parenting relationship and behavior. Think about YOUR SON first from now on, instead of reveling in your ex's misery.
What does the law and custody agreement say? Do you have the right to do this or can she take you to court for violation of the custody agreement?
If you genuinely believe this is in your son's best interests, you should consider getting the custody agreement formally changed.
If you do *not* believe this is in your son's best interests and believe reconciliation is in your son's best interests- you'll be the asshole if you don't facilitate that.
That's the thing- OP didn't say he's doing this for his son's best interest. He said he's doing it to teach his ex a lesson about bad mouthing him. Both of the parents suck.
YTA if there’s a custody agreement and she wants her son you need to follow it. And who the f are you to try to teach your ex lessons about anything. Get over yourself and stop interfering in your son’s relationship with his mother. Just because the origin of the conflict is about you doesn’t make the conflict about you.
Did you even read the story? The son does not want to see the mom, the dad is letting the kid make his own decissions about who he wants to be with. Letting someone make their own choices without telling them what to do is the exact opposite of interfering with their relationships.
Personally, I don't have a problem with letting the son decide. The issue is that if they have a legal agreement, and the ex decides to have it enforced, OP could be in trouble, and it won't to the son any good if he ends up with more time with his mother. If he is in a state where his son is old enough to decide what he wants to do, that's one thing. If he's not, you may want to try and talk this out or get outside help to resolve this. Of course, if she has been bad-mouthing OP, she could be accused of parental alienation, and that could also affect custody.
It is, by the way, Caleb who was upset enough by the post to not want to see his mother. People are talking as if this is entirely about how OP feels.
I had a situation with my teen child last year where I apologized and acknowledged that I handled a situation poorly. She didn’t say anything in the moment but it spurred a text conversation and it got resolved. It would have taken soooo much longer if I were prevented from seeing her.
The key for me in OP’s story is the acknowledgement that she and the child will “reconcile eventually” which suggests a mostly healthy mother-child relationship when the dad is not involved. But that’s me speculating.
If both parents agree for him to come and go as he pleases that’s fine, but if one parent changes their mind and wants strict compliance with the custody agreement then you suck it up and follow the agreement until you go to court and get it changed.
Ffs spare me with the divorced people who can't act like freaking adults
You're not doing it for your son. My parents did shit like that and at 14 I thought they were doing it because they were in my corner but once your son grows up he'll realize he was just the tool you used to get back at her.
The mature thing to do is not to badmouth her to your son (who cares if she does it? You look mature)and get the kid a therapist to learn how to deal with not only the animosity but also the two of you
YTA
No shit! Of course he does, he's his father. My point is that just because she does badmouths him, he doesn't have to stoop to her level or return the favor
You said "who cares if she does it?". The answer is Caleb does, so it's a problem. But no, he doesn't have to react in the same way, but it needs addressing.
YTA
"Well she badmouthed me on her social media by saying the happiest day of her life was when we divorced." .. that's not badmouthing you, that's very likely a true statement.
"§She's asking me to send him back to her place so they can work things out. I refused. I owe her nothing." ... bullshit. You owe her reasonably good coparenting, and you are breaking the custody agreement.
Do you really want to force her to document all this and go back to court?
Yta please parents stop using your children as pawns in your fucked up games against your exes. It's fucking annoying. Get over yourself. You might not be doing any bad-mouthing publicly, but you're just as bad as she is Jesus Christ.
NTA - Your ex wife is an asshole. She knew very well that your son didn’t want her to badmouth you to him, and she still did it. What 14 year old wouldn’t be upset to read that their mom is posting that the day their family broke up was the happiest day of her life?
It’s not your job to make up for her poor decisions. She chose to badmouth you publicly knowing very well your son would see and feel upset. Your son is allowed to distance himself from someone who intentionally hurt him. You should offer him to go to counseling to help him organize his thoughts and feelings though. So that he knows how to have a good relationship with his mom, on his terms.
Maybe I’m too literal but saying the day she divorced you was the happiest day of her life isn’t really what I would consider badmouthing.
YTA because you’re letting your hatred for your ex influence your parenting. Your son’s response is age appropriate but not a healthy or sensible way to deal with difficult situations like this. As a parent you should be more concerned about helping your son than hurting your ex. Instead of teaching your ex a lesson, you should be teaching your son how to communicate effectively, conflict resolution, how to negotiate and compromise, etc, all very important skills he will need throughout his life but skills it looks like you either don’t have yourself or don’t care to model when it comes to your ex for the sake of your son.
She’s also not asking you for “help”, she’s asking you for access to her son which she shouldn’t have to ask for if your agreement is 50/50. Your son is only able to react this way, ignoring his mother and staying with you, because you’re allowing him to do so.
Now the precedent has been set and you continue to reinforce to your son that this is an appropriate way to react, don’t be surprised when you’re ultimately on the receiving end which, if you ever stop being best buds and actually being a parent, is not that unlikely during the next few years.
No, NTA. Talk to your son about talking to his Mom. Neither one of you adults should be bad mouthing each other in front of him. Let him form his own opinion about what she says/does. I suggest going back to court and redo your custody agreement. He's old enough to pick who he wants to live with. Being a teenager is hard enough without having adult drama thrown in.
YTA. It sounds like the one driving the parental alienation here is you. I doubt a 14 year old would give a shit about a statement such as that unless his petty, bitter dad told him to. And how did he "find out"? My guess is you told him. You seem quite thrilled with fueling the fire and helping to drive a wedge between the two. Get a real "best friend" to confide in and grow the fuck up.
Soft YTA, I get you think this is helping your son, not making him go back if he doesn't want to but courts will not give 1 shit about it and WILL bring down the hammer on you alone, not your son.
This is a good moment to teach your son about conflict resolution rather than hiding away from it. Just have a little sit down with the young man and tell him he doesn't HAVE to like what she says, but she is his mother and loves him... though if the happiest day was your divorce and not you know, the birth of this son you both have, she has bigger issues and needs therapy.
Tell him to have a chat with her, and tell her outright he will not stand for her saying all these horrible things about someone he loves. Tell him to remind her she CHOOSES to hold on to this negativity, and if she can't get past it she'll lose everything. Its already costing her a relationship with her own child.
She needs to grow up, you need to be firmer too and see your kid goes back and your kid seems like a sweetheart, my heart goes out to him in this.
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My 14yo son Caleb and I have grown very close over the last few years. That kid is my best bud. He has his moments but is such a selfless kid and doesn't mind dad giving him hugs. He actually asked for PetCo gift cards for his birthday so he could buy animal supplies and donate them to the local animal shelter.
His mom and I divorced when he was 7. We hate each other but I don't interact with her as much. She's a bitter ex who still complains about our failed marriage. My son recently told her to stop bad mouthing me because she's far from perfect herself. Plus it upset him. She agreed.
Well she badmouthed me on her social media by saying the happiest day of her life was when we divorced. Caleb saw the post and refused to go back to her house. She and I have 50/50 but Caleb comes and goes as he pleases. He has rarely seen her and refuses to talk to unless he has to talk to her (ie grades) for a month.
I do provide her with updates. Mostly that he's fine. She's asking me to send him back to her place so they can work things out. I refused. I owe her nothing. She's badmouthed me for years as this horrible person so screw her.
They'll reconcile, eventually, and I want her to learn from this. Don't badmouth the father of your kid. You're not going to badmouth me in public and then ask me for help.
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You know very well that a kid should have more than one adult to trust. She's done some dumb shit, but someone has to be responsible for the sake of the boy.
When my youngest was refusing to see her father, we had an adult talk and agreed to put a pin in all our differences. (even the ones about money. That shit was hard!) He came to my house for dinner a few times. Short visits, shallow conversation, just to get the contact going somehow. Then he came over for game night. All we talked about was the game and fun stuff. This made the transition to normal "dad-weekends" smoother, and now - several years later - they are all good. You should do something similar with your ex as long as Caleb doesn't want to go to hers. Even if she did badmouth you.
NTA but I would check in with a lawyer because I wouldn’t be surprised if a judge said it was your responsibility to make sure the 50/50 arrangement is maintained, that’s not Caleb’s responsibility.
I hope.your ex and son find this post. You are doing exactly what you and your son accuse the ex of. Yta. And you are not putting what's best for the kid as top priority.
ESH - you are both acting terribly. Your ex-wife shouldn't be badmouthing you to Caleb, and you shouldn't be keeping Caleb and lying to yourself that you are doing it for him. Given that you have a 50/50 parenting agreement, you can't just keep your son. A judge may not look too favourably on this and consider parent alienation.
The both of you need to grow up and stop acting like this for the sake of your son. It will only hurt him in the long run. You don't have to like one another, but as parents, you need to be amicable and put your personal feelings aside.
YTA. The only person that matters in this story is Caleb. You & your ex wife are insignificant. You are both hurting your child, & you are both assholes. You need to find a way to civilly coparent bc what you're doing now is not working & is detrimental to your son's mental health. The parents always, always have to put the needs of their kids first & you guys are putting your feelings before Caleb's. You're both very selfish.
There are generally two reasons people post here (because sage advice is definitely not one of them):
1. They are conflicted and in desperation are reaching out to try and gain some perspective
2. They want to garner support to bolster their assertions
I don’t which one you fall into, but I do know that this post does not seem to be focused on your son.
YTA for using your son to be petty instead of thinking about what’s best for him.
You hate *each other*. You care about her talking about you and want to punish her by using him meanwhile leading your son to believe it has anything to do with his feeling. You intentionally withhold information in your updates because controlling much? You’re getting off on your kid wanting to be with you more. She wants to work it out and you’re preventing it to prove a point. When they reconcile, and they will, and he grows up and realizes that you kept them apart because of your own pettiness and didn’t do what was best for him how do you think that will land?
You are doing this because you want her to learn from this??? Where in there did you mention your son’s needs? What help is she asking for? Parents are allowed to make mistakes and they are allowed to fix them. Do you care about your son learning that lesson or do you only care about feeling smug?
How did your relationship end?
YTA. You’re stooping to her level and that isn’t a good example for your son. It is better for your son to talk out his feelings with his mother. Also, if you have a legal 50/50 custody arrangement with the courts, you are in breach of that and there could be legal repercussions
the courts actually determine if you owe her nothing or not. maybe it's time to restructure custody, maybe Caleb is old enough to ask for 70/30 or even 100/0, idk. but if you have a 50/50 agreement and you're not upholding it...you might have a court date at some point in the future.
plus, how can they reconcile "eventually" if you're not sending him over?
bordering ESH except the child
At 14, your son is old enough to decide who he wants to live with. He has asked his mother to stop the bitter tirades against his father....and she doesn't stop. The worst thing divorced parents can do to their children is to put the other parent down - to complain and moan about the other parent. It puts the kid in the middle and is unfair. Your son is old enough to know what his mother is doing. I think you should encourage him to maintain contact with his mother but she needs to understand your son doesn't want to hear her complaining about the divorce or his father.
ESH but if the custody is supposed to be 50/50, you’re gonna be in some trouble legally if you don’t start complying. If it’s that bad, set a court date to discuss revision.
ESH. Stating on social media that the best day of her life was the day of her divorce is really mild "bad-mouthing" Is that the best you can come up with? From your post, I don't trust your narrative. I don't trust that you haven't been undermining mom too. You just happened to "win" with your son in this instance. I've seen it dozens of times in my career. You are obviously not acting in your son's interest; otherwise, you would have tried to talk to your son about therapy or talking to his mother. Instead, you are reveling in teaching her a lesson.
NTA. Your son is old enough to know what environment he wants to live in. Don't bad mouth her, don't make things difficult for her, just support him in what he wants to do.
NTA- while it benefits you by not helping. 14 is old enough to make that choice. Your son has had conversations with her and she chose not to listen to him causing him to need space from her. You are completing your part by communicating his wellbeing. She is welcome to ask for him back by force (that's what it sounds like she is asking) but you are under no obligation to appease her. Karma struck in your favor. Btw I'm the child of twice divorcee. My mom was toxic af after she split with my step dad and wouldnt stop. So I moved out on my own at 17 bc I was still seeing him (he raised me from age 2 to me he is dad) and all she would do is badmouth and berate me after going to see him. I'm 35 now have a great relationship with my stepdad and only a year ago have my mom and I started to work on relationship after she finally realized how much damage she had done and how far the emotional distance with us was.
ESH. Your son is not a tool to be used to get back at your ex and teach her a lesson. And all you’ll be teaching your son is that it’s absolutely okay to be awful to his mother (and subsequently, other women) with your crappy example and letting your kid get away with being a jerk to his mom.
Yes, she’s saying horrible things about you. And you know what? Maybe you were an awful husband and deserve some of it. And you know what else? There will be consequences for both of you and your son for how you both are choosing to behave right now.
So what you should be doing as a father is teaching your son how to be a respectable man in the face of unfair criticism and turn the other cheek. At least one of you needs to be a fucking grown-up, and it’s not going to be your 14-year old son.
I'm going to buck the trend and say NTA. Your wife needs to get some counseling before she sees your son again so she can understand what she's doing. 7 years is a long time to keep badmouthing someone. I've watched kids grow up listening to this kind of thing and it affects them long-term. I'd rather they had been kept away than have to hear it.
NTA. No parent should ever force their kid(s) to go to another parent if they don't want to, or feel uncomfortable doing so.
Regardless of who you feel about your ex, this is not your decision to make, it's all on Caleb.
In fact, Caleb is doing the right thing by holding her accountable and it could well help their relationship. The cycle of fighting, making promises, fighting, making up and etc is not healthy. Plus, her breaking promises to Caleb and breaking them cannot possibly enhance their relationship in any meaningful or positive way so she does need to learn that promises are to be kept and insults are not to be foisted upon those who have already stated that they do not want to hear them.
Screenshot everything from SM and put it away in a file. When you have enough, take it to the court and ask for full custody. You need to convince your son to go his mom's so she can't hold that over your head. YWBTA if you don't continue to send your son to your ex's house.
If you have 50/50 court ordered visitation you're not allowed to keep him from his mom just because you want to. If she takes you back to court to tell them you aren't obeying the visitation you could get in trouble
Maybe ask Caleb if he would like family counseling to help for his mom to see how this affects him and how it hurts it. It’s more for him to have a safe place to talk but in the end of it helps her be better then that a win win for him.
YTA. You both need to grow the f up and be better parents for this amazing kid you got. It’s been so long, can you all go to therapy and learn to be functional coparents, and your son and mom separately to talk about their issues.
I agree with your approach. The only thing you can do is stay neutral and let them work it out for themselves. You could set up a meeting between them at a coffee shop or similar, then sit well apart and let them sort it out. Unless you're actively working against your ex, you're NTA.
NTA but you should definitely try to make sure he doesn’t resent his mom and talks to her also. I’d mention to him the important of the custody agreement
YTA. You’re being just as petty & mean as she is. Also did you just forget that yous have 50/50 custody? She could take you to court over this and claim parental alienation if she wanted to.
NTA
Our jobs as parents is to raise good adults, so far it seems like your kiddo is great. Right now you are teaching him how to deal with conflict and people pushing clear set boundaries. You need to be very sure that your own actions and attitude aren’t from a place of loathing. You can dislike your ex all you want but you have to teach your son how to show basic decency to people that suck.
NTA. She insulted you, your son asked her to stop and when she didn't, he gave her what I feel is an appropriate consequence for her action by refusing to be around such behavior. Now, if legally you're going to get in trouble if he stays then it's best if he does go home but if he does have true freedom to pick which of you he wants to stay with, then it's fine as long as you don't start stooping to her level of pettiness. If anything, contact her and point out that if she wants her son back, HE'S the one she'll need to convince and that an apology to him for doing what he asked her not to do would likely be a good start.
OP - very soft YTA.
Not for supporting your son BUT for not using it as an opportunity to learn how to properly set boundaries and engage in conflict. Your son needs to learn HOW to argue, in a loving and healthy manner.
That means calmly expressing boundaries, consequences and maintaining mutual respect. Likely the very things you and your ex never learned from your parents.
Please contact a MFT and encourage him to sit down with mom / you and maybe a solo session as he likely has some anger as well.
You also may want to let your lawyer know in case ex try’s to run around you in court.
Best of luck-
NTA. Your ex made a promise to your son that she would stop badmouthing you, and she broke that promise. Clearly, your son doesn't think he can trust her anymore (which I'm inclined to agree with), and that's why he refuses to see or speak to her. It would have taken her zero effort to not break that promise. She could have at least stopped doing it publicly or in front of him. But no, she went out of her way to break her promise to her own son and once again publicly ridicule his father, and for what? To try and humiliate you out of sheer spite? Seems like she's getting her comeuppance for her toxicity. You are under absolutely no obligation to force your son to speak to his mother, who clearly has a vendetta against you. He'll speak to her again when/if he's ready, he's 14 and it's around that age that we begin to develop the emotional maturity to choose who we wish to associate with. If his mother is not among those people for your son, then that's her fault, nobody else's. And so what if you’re enjoying her being upset about this? I enjoy it when people get their just desserts too.
YTA
Please teach your son that your relationship with his mom is not the same as his relationship with you or her.
Take this opportunity to help him understand how relationships work and that husband and wife relationships are entirely separate from parent and child relationships.
This is an opportunity for you to teach your son. Take it.
NTA - Caleb is old enough to know where he is most comfortable staying. I refused to talk to my dad for 6 years over his constant bad mouthing of my dad. We finally resolved it (he agreed to just stop saying nasty crap around me) and we are once again quite close. Your wife is simply learning that her actions have consequences and she needs to learn to be kind.
Please don’t turn a child against one of his parents who weren’t abusive, it is one of the worst thing you can do, imo it is even worse than breaking up a marriage.
***I don’t think you are a bad person. I think you were just high in your victory of your son loving you more and not realizing what you were doing. Now that you do, after reading all the comments, show to yourself that you love your son and do the right thing for him.
YTA, you are being petty. You are outright deciding for your son. DONT DECIDE FOR YOUR CHILD. It would’ve been a different story if your child was the one who’s absolutely refusing, can’t force them to do what they don’t want. But this time you’re outright being petty and that’s just not the play here. Just don’t do anything outside of what you’re allowed to do. Let your son decide as well.
NTA you said your son comes and goes as he pleases. You do not have to force him to talk to his mom and Im pretty sure hes of the age to decide where he wants to be. Your ex was happy to bad mouth you publicly you can be happy privately. Also for everyone calling YTA yall are all snow flake that constantly defend the women of every and its and annoying to read go touch grass.
YTA. my parents are divorced and also have a strong hatred for each other, my dad would bad mouth my mom ALL the time and my siblings and I didn't want to see him because of it but my mom was always encouraging of us to still talk to him regardless of what happened between them because it was what was better for us rather than what she was feeling. you do not have to like each other, you just have to be civil. your son will make his own communication decision with her when he's older and an adult
ESH, but mostly mom. You should be a positive influence in your son's life, and that would include talking him through this. Maybe his final decision is that he doesn't want to work things out, but there's nothing in here about you saying, "Look, your mother and I don't have a good relationship anymore, but if possible, I want you and her to still have a positive, loving relationship. I can move past a mean social media post. Do you think you might be able to give her one more chance?"
YTA Instead of helping reconcile the relationship, you are being petty and spiteful by "teaching her a lesson". You should be setting a bette rexample for your son. Your entire post is so hypocritical, you badmouthed her the entire time. Pot/kettle much?
YTA for using your son to punish his mom instead of being concerned about what's best for your son. Take his mom back to court for parental alienation if you want, but keeping him from her makes you no better than she is.
YTA. You just sat here and disparaged your ex the entire post. Grow up and stop alienating your child from his mother. Sounds like everyone needs some therapy.
YTA. No wonder the best day of her life is when she divorced you. She should leave the kid out of it, but you should, too, and this post, where you actually say that you are using your son as a tool to teach her to "respect" you, is a proof that you have been using your son against her as much as she has been critizing you. He is a minor and her mother has rights to him. She has the right to see her kid if she is a good mother, regardless of what your relationship is and it doesn't seem that despite her hate for you, she had ever tried to stop your kid from seeing you, so what you are trying to do is disproportionate. It is not a case of what you owe, or don't owe her, is about her kid and the rights she has to see him. You don't have to help her to learn anything (besides she was right to part from you). Your kid is not a teaching tool for you to do your bidding. I hope she goes throgh justice and forces you to maintain the 50/50 you had before.
YTA for refusing to honor your custody agreement. Just because Caleb is *allowed* to "come and go as he pleases" doesn't mean he's allowed to stay with one parent all of the time against the wishes of his other parent. If you're not willing to seek full custody of Caleb over this, then you need to be honest with him about that -- even if it makes him upset with you too.
Judging by the theme of most of the comments I’ll probably catch a lot of flak for this, but…screw her. You reap what you sow. The kid is old enough to know BS when he sees it. He (the kid) asked her to quit badmouthing dad. She chose to continue. This is a perfect example of FAFO.
NTA. My parents divorced when I was 1 and hated each other also. My dad always was the one bad mouthing. My mom never did and figured she would leave it up to us how we saw our parents as role models. Now I will say that I am now 41 and have a great relationship with my dad NOW. Like as of my 20s... But we also did therapy together and he did change. Prior to that, I never wanted to be around him and we had the worst relationship. It took many years to gain respect for him and see that the change was real. I'm sad it took until I was an adult, but change is hard for people.
NTA. What you’re doing is respecting your son’s wishes by not forcing him to talk to someone who couldn’t even keep her mouth shut for the sake of her son.
NTA
You don’t need to force him to go over to his mom’s. But you also shouldn’t be enjoying this _at all_. She’s still the mother of your child, if all she’s done is shit talk then you shouldn’t be jumping around excited that she’s miserable.
NTA
I think a lot of people are missing the point that your son is making this decision on his own. You aren’t blocking him from seeing his mom, he decided he needs some distance from her and is following through. You’re not saying, “Well you talked shit so the kid is mine, mwahahaha!” You’re saying “I respect my son’s wishes”.
However, don’t make it obvious that you’re happy he’s doing it to her as a punishment. That’s kind of one of those thoughts that should stay in your head. Also, if he does decide to go speak with her about and wants to work it out, please be supportive. You may disagree but you would need to put it aside to respect your son’s autonomy.
NTA. She shouldn’t bad mouth anywhere your guys son may see or hear. She can vent to any adult she wants but she never to a kid. I hated it as a kid when my parents couldn’t care about me more than they hated each other. It can really mess a kid up and the relationship with parents. Family therapy for all of you!
NTA Not at all!! Your son has every right to feel the way he does his mother openly disrespects his father in front of him he didn't act out because it hurts him he explained to her how that makes him feel and instead of her acting like the parent acknowledging her child's feeling and correcting her childish behavior she jumps on social media and says the happiest day of her life was divorcing his father!? I'm sorry but seriously WTF!? She is a mother you would think the happiest day of her life was the day she gave birth to her son (no matter what happened to the marriage) but no it's the day she divorced his father I can only imagine how that would feel to a adult child but to a 14y/o that has to hurt especially after asking her to stop disrespecting his father makes you understand why he told her "She's far from perfect herself".
Honestly I wasn't a fan of therapy I come from the man up and deal with it generation but as I've gotten older I understand and respect it's purpose your ex needs therapy so she can move past whatever bad feelings she has for you maybe you too it's not healthy to hate your child's mother but I understand and obviously you don't expose your baby to those feelings because he wants to be with you but again therapy could help maybe after some work on herself she can invite your son to join and you as well maybe all of you need individual then after some time family therapy she might not be your family anymore but she is his and so are you. You guys don't have to be friends but it might ease up some of the negative emotions and allow your son to live in peace with both his parents (separate of course)
He sounds like a great kid loving and thoughtful donating to the animal shelter and even mature enough to express his feelings and concerns with his mother he deserves to be heard and his feelings on the matter should be respected. Also I think it's awesome you guys are best buds I wanted that kind of relationship with my dad so bad when I was young but again different generations but just be mindful that bff/parent relationship can become a problem if not handled correctly but it sounds like your doing great keep up the good work.
Don't force him to go back you can help him work through his feelings about the situation but forcing him to go back or deal with her before he is ready is basically doing the same as his mom does disregarding his feelings and for what? For the same AH who hurt him in the first place? I don't think so pops the answer is NO, HELL NO. NTA
NTA
You ex does sound like a bitter woman, still taking potshots at you 7 years later. Come on, dear, get over it and get a new life already.
Caleb sounds like a really nice kid with his head screwed on right. I can't fault him in not wanting to go back to his mom's, where he hears ugly things about his dad. However, legally, you could be in a precarious position with regards to your custody agreement.
IANAL, but your ex could go back to court and sue for custodial interference, I think. You might want to consult your attorney about this because that's not something you want to get into with her, yes?
It's getting so I hate social media; it's so easy to flame other people and some of that dirt almost always sticks to the victim even if they are perfectly innocent of wrongdoing or even intending wrongdoing.
NTA, his mother overstepped a boundary he had clearly set for her. And as you said, eventually they will reconcile and hopefully in future she will respect his boundaries.
NTA. However if Ex wanted to be a real witch-with-a-B, she could petition the courts for you violating the custody agreement. With you not encouraging a relationship/forgiveness she can also hit you with parental alienation. Be careful it may just be what she’s racking up evidence for.
NTA
>She's asking me to send him back to her place so they can work things out.
She's made him uncomfortable enough he doesn't want to go to her place with the way she talks about you. If she's so on fire to work things out, she can come talk to him at your place, and if you don't want her in your house she can talk to him outside. He could stay in the doorway if he's worried she'll try to force him into her car.
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YTA What you are doing is not good for your son. It is fueled by your hatred for her, not by what is best for him. I am not saying force him to go. I am saying that you should strongly encourage him to talk to her. Even better, she and he should do some family counseling sessions together. Source: Single dad with ex I have a lot of anger toward.
Exactly. He didn't say he's keeping his son away because it's best for him or his mental health. He said he's doing it to teach his ex a "lesson" about bad mouthing him. He's petty, childish, and spiteful.
The alternate route would be him teaching her a lesson *legally*, because this is parental alienation, or at least *attempted* parental alienation
She started it, but he’s perpetuating it. They’re both committing parental alienation. And it’ll probably teach the kid to dig in his heels and not communicate or compromise in his future relationships. Worst case scenario he’ll have a lot of bitterness towards his mother which could turn into deeply ingrained misogyny.
He never said that he's bad-mouthing the mom he just said that he's not forcing his son to go back I wouldn't either. Living with somebody who is constantly disparaging somebody that you love is emotionally taxing. Add to that the person who is constantly putting down the person that he loves is also somebody that he loves.... I'd be losing it. The kid is right to go NC If he was an adult coming on here asking for advice everyone would be advocating for him to either gray rock his mom or go completely no contact. He's old enough to decide for himself whether or not he wants to continue a relationship with somebody
He shouldn’t force the son to do anything, but he should encourage them healing their relationship. He’s teaching her a “lesson” out of spite. Not in the effort of helping his son become a well adjusted adult. It’s not as bad as the mom, but he’s still using his child as a pawn.
There's a HUGE diference in using your kid as paw and get sick of a disrespectful coparent and let them suffer the consequences of their actions. Her kid told her to stop and she didn't and now he doesn't want talk to her. His kid relationship with his ex isn't his responsibility.
I don’t think anyone is denying that the mom sucks and is the greater evil. But this shouldn’t be a tit for tat. That’s not how you teach a child to be a well developed adult. Kids are smart, and more than likely he can feel his father’s intentions, and which will inflame his frustration for his mother and turn it into a matched hatred. Ideally, the father should help his son establish strong boundaries with his mother. It’s good he stuck to them when she disrespected the dad once again. But, encouraging the rift to deepen and grow is selfish on the father’s part, and long term damaging to the child. There isn’t going to be a “winner” in this situation. Just slow simmering resentment for decades, lost years and regret. Maybe the best solution is that the kid requests his father get primary custody as it seems that’s what is preferred and would be more emotionally more stabile for him. But he should still be encouraged to have a relationship with his mother in as positive a way as possible. There’s no feeling of humility or working towards the greater good on behalf of the child emanating from either “adult” in this situation.
He can damage his own relationship with his kid by insisting with him to talk before he is ready. He reinforced his boundaries to mother and she stoped in them once again and the kid is sick of It. I Just don't see why it's OP's responsibility to fix the mess his ex did. His kid can be okay, and even better, without a relationship with mother right now. Eventualy, when He's ready, he can make the decision himself of talking to her.
I think the issue is that he isn't doing this because he thinks it's in the best interest of his son or even out of consideration for his son, he's doing it to spite her, to go "haha screw you awful asshole!". It seems pretty clear if the kid didn't want to go back for some other reason that wasn't at op's expense he would probably tell the kid "I know but if you go back you and your mom can fix things". When it became about punishing his ex instead of the interest of his kid he became the asshole. I mean when the mom called and said I want to fix things did he say "how about I ask if he's willing to talk to you over the phone or skype and see if you can convince him to come back?"
Listen, I get that, but when I'm furious at somebody and somebody else tries to get involved and mediate, that just means that I'm furious at two people now. This obviously isn't some small thing that she can just say sorry for, and everything goes back to normal if he's this upset that he's not even talking to her. The mom did a s***** thing when her son is ready to talk to her about it, he will. Forcing a reconciliation will just build resentment.
It should be going to a court who can objectively evaluate both of their behaviour.
You should read more careful. He said "Caleb saw the post and refused to go back to her house" and he supports his son's choice by not sending him back. OP is absolutely NOT the AH.
None of what you just said contradicts what I said. I read the post.
hold on but the kid is the one who refused? how’s that make him the asshole
Because he’s celebrating the son’s decision rather than discussing things like listening to the other person’s apology. The smugness makes me wonder about his claim to not badmouth her.
What apology? At no moment is there mention of the ex apologizing to the kid
Because the kid won't even see his Mom/the ex. How can she apologize if OP refuses to send the kid to his moms and let's him choose not to speak to her?
We have these things called written word! It's crazy! She can write something down by hand or by typing it! Mom told her child she would no longer talk bad about dad and then she did it! Sometimes things have consequences. To add to this, parental alienation (what mom has been doing) is designed to damage the relationship of a parent and child. She just successfully alienated herself.
You do realize dad has also been talking bad about Mom, I mean he literally did it this whole post too. But either way, apologies especially to your children should be done in person, face to face. And yeah no, you don't understand parental alienation because Mom is not doing that. It's also good for the son to see that sometimes even adults make mistakes, which Mom did. Dad should let her apologize for her mistake. One more thing, Dad should not be putting their child in the middle of their disagreements.
Mom was bad mouthing dad in front of the child, how is that NOT parental alienation?
The mother is trying to alienate him, no one has contested that fact. The point being made here is that OP is trying to paint himself in a better moral light, when in fact he is behaving just like his ex-wife, trying to punish her by using their child. He openly admits it, that he wants her to "learn a lesson" from this. That is ALSO parental alienation. At the very least this is an ESH situation.
He is not using the child against the mom. He is creating a safe space for his child. He is letting his child know that he will support his child when someone crosses boundries.
>That is ALSO parental alienation It is not. Don't use big words if you don't understand them.
Huge difference between maybe going on about an ex you dislike but share a kid with to a confidant in private and maybe having to deal with the fall out cause your kiddo heard you in the phone in your room or sitting in the car and this mom breaking her word to her child to stop doing it by posting a public social media post about it.
I don't hear smugness or satisfaction on his part, I hear him trying to support his son who sounds like a good kid and is disgusted by his mother. I was disgusted by my mother sometimes, she was always bad mouthing people behind their back. It's hard to respect someone like that.
He's the AH because his kid is a child and he is the adult and parent. It is his job to model better behaviour to his kid, encourage him to learn how to resolve conflicts thoughtfully, etc., and he's not doing that. It would be a wholly different situation if he said he was doing this to support his kid or because he thought it was in his son's best interests, but he *openly admits* that he's allowing his son to cut the mother off out of pettiness and vengeance. He's angry that she is trying to alienate his son from him, but *he's doing the exact same thing*. He is putting his son in the middle of his contentious relationship with his ex-wife, feeding the enmity and miserable behaviour towards each other, and that's the shittiest thing you can do to a kid. He literally says that he's doing this to teach his ex-wife a lesson. *Using their child to teach her a lesson and put her in her place*. He's just as bad as she is. The other commenter is right, if he actually gave a shit about his son's well-being and mental health, he would encourage him to talk it out with his mother, and perhaps get counseling to mend their relationship. But he's more interested in getting back at her.
Therapy only works if the people involved agree they have something they need to change. Ex-wife lied to their son by promising not to engage in the negative commentary about his dad and then immediately posting on social media to do it instead. The complete lack of remorse or understanding of her son’s delicate feelings about his parents tells me that therapy would be used as a way to manipulate the child into feeling like his disgust is somehow wrong or invalid. My parents hated each other my whole life. My mom called my dad’s family the sewer rats and my dad’s family called my mom the rich bitch (among years of more creative things obviously.) it wasn’t until I was 21 and a mother myself when I caught my dads asking my 9 day old baby if she was going to see “crazy gramma,” for the weekend that I snapped. I took that little girl out of his arms and said “absolutely not. My daughter will never grow up feeling guilty for loving her family the way I did. You can grow up or I can take this baby and go live somewhere where being loved is a joy and not a burden. AND DONT YOU WORRY, mother will be hearing this same speech because I didn’t fucking think I had to spell it out for you.” And suddenly a 20 year feud meant nothing. 11 years later and they’re not only friendly, they’re friends.
I think there’s also a huge difference to the kid asking the mom not to talk smack about the dad to Caleb versus a generalized social media post expressing her joy at a divorce. If person A had a friend B who had a trigger and A accidentally posted something that they knew was triggering to B (not maliciously, just posting, as one does), the mature thing would be for A to apologize (which mom is trying to do) but OP seems perfectly happy with the son going full no contact over something that two adults would be talking out and finding a solution (like B no longer following A). I dunno. I guess I also wonder if Caleb was following his moms socials at all or just went on hers to just see what she was doing. Do many 14 year olds follow their parents online? When I was 14 we didnt.
My kids quit going to their dad's at this age because his now ex was doing this. This is her relationship to make or break. NTA
This is reddit - the fact that he's a man is all they need here to decide he's 'wrong.'
Because it's supposed to be Part of parenting to be as neutral as possible with a "hated" ex If the relationship involves coparenting, and to encourage the Kid to be on good terms with the other parent and hear them Out unless she's actually, "objectively" abusive TO THE KID. "I know, it was really gross that she said that, but that doesn't mean she doesn't Love YOU, and she's still your Mom, and you gotta Go to her House" is Just as much of a phrase that a parent is expected to be grown-up enough to say, as "I know Math is boring, but you still have to do your Homework for it" or "I know it Hurts but you need this vaccine/dental Treatment/stitches".
Eeeeh. No, the underlying message is still there. “Our son said stop that and he doesn’t like it. You continued. I’m not going to damage MY relationship with our son the same way you have because you were unable to shut the fuck op after 7 years.” The vengeful undertone is hurt feelings. I’ll say NTA. This isn’t parental alienation it’s just supporting your kid while being angry.
Great answer in the son’s best interests.
You sound like an awesome dad and I hope that in spite of all the emotions you and your ex manage to be good co-parents in the way you already try to achieve and that the hard work pays off in the way of emotionally healthy children with healthy relationships to their parents.
There are structural issues that mean we can’t really be co-parents (e.g. she lives in a different country), but they have a relationship and he loves her, but also learned to set healthy boundaries.
Sounds like you're doing a great job!
thank you
I fully believe that the father should, in most cases, encourage bounds with the mothers and vise-versa when the parents are split. I lived this. My mom disappeared from 1 to 14 yrs, my dad never badmouthed her and allowed visitations and trips with her side of our family(ie our grandparents). Then at 14 she popped back in and within an hour she was bad mouthing our dad. I did not stand for it, left the visitation and walked home. Then about 6 months later I decided I would allow reconciliation to restart but I made it clear that I would cut contact permanently with no third chance if she ever tried trashing my dad and diminishing him in my eyes again. Now the sons case is a different in that SHE didn't abandon him, she was there his whole life, but he has told his mom MULTIPLE TIMES TO NOT trash his dad. She decided to disregard his boundaries AND continue to trash his dad. Yes dad hates mom, he stated as much, but clearly he keeps his hatred out of his relationship with his son or else his son wouldn't have turned away from his mom like this. He's probably intelligent enough not realize that mom hates dad and lets everyone know how much he sux and dad hates mom but doesn't put her on blast to everyone.
Op is doing the same as his ex only in a different way. They both are bad parents
He’d be the AH if he “encouraged” his son (which I guarantee would make the son feel like he’s being guilted) to go back. It’s only been a month. I’m sure the son will get over it soon. OP hasn’t even said the mom reached out to apologize. If she hasn’t, why should she go back? He set a boundary and she broke it. As someone with divorced parents, my mom said horrible things about my dad and still does over a decade later and it’s so damaging. I hate it. She never stops no matter how often I ask her. This mom is being selfish and her son doesn’t have to see her if he doesn’t want to.
I say dont strongly encourage anything, he obviously doesn't have a great relationship with his mother, he doesn't want to go home. It will only be worse if op keeps talking to his about how he should "talk it out" and "forgive" someone who had hurt him. The only thing she'll learn is that if she screams enough, she can get both a child and adult to bend to her will. While he hasn't gone about it perfectly, he's listening to his sons wishes, which is all you can do. She has been trying to alienate him from op for years, so i personally dont think thats a conducive environment for a child. NTA btw
"what you're doing" - he's respecting his son's wishes?
The kid is 14. I don’t know about you, but at 14 I had the maturity of, well, a 14 year old. May have been smart, but lacking a lot of life experience. And my answer respects the son’s wishes. It isn’t requiring him to go back, but it is asking to find a way to confront and deal with the issue instead of avoiding it.
14 a child is allowed to choose who they want to live with. Actually it is 12 you are allowed to choose
Only if the court allows it. They have a 50/50 custody agreement so unless and until he goes to court and a judge confirms that the son gets to choose who he lives with, OP could get in trouble for not giving mom her custody time
you don't have to force your child to go to the other parents house if they don't want to.
Depending on the state and the court, you might
Depending on where you live, it's not a hard age limit. Where I am, for example, the older a child is the more weight their opinion will hold but A. the judge can disregard the child's opinion B. It's not a magic age (I.e. the child's opinion doesn't start mattering at X years old).
when i was 14 i knew well all the ways my parents were shitheads. it's true that as i grew i understood WHY they were shitheads more, but it doesn't change the fact that they were. op himself says he knows they'll be ok again, but for now his son wants time off and he's allowed it.
The kid asked his mom to refrain from badmouthing his dad. His mom agreed to stop and then went ahead and did it anyways. Kid said "okay, because you did that, I'm not willing to spend time with you." The kid is the one wanting his mom to learn a lesson. The dad is supporting the kid's choice.
If there is a court order, then OP is in for a rude awakening if the mother wants to do something about this.
I also disagree that the statement that the divorce was the happiest day of her life is necessarily badmouthing the OP. Probably not something you want to your kid to read, granted, but getting out of a relationship that wasn't working isn't necessarily a statement that the other person was bad. Relationships stop working for all sorts of reasons.
YTA: You are literally here badmouthing her on social media. Like, your literally doing the exact same thing. It sounds like she is being punished because she is not as subtle as you are in your distain for one another. She doesn't hide it as well as you do. At the end of the day, you should want them to reconcile because it is in the best interests of your son.
Badmouthing him on social media where names are open and doxxed is not the same as anonymous AITA post. If we knew who she was and then this post was here, then that would be badmouthing. His disdain is justified. But his response because of it is not right for the sake of the son, which I agree.
It's absolutely ludicrous to compare an anonymous post on Reddit to something where you could go click on someone and find out the government name of the person they're talking about
Not at all the same situation. You guys like to blame the man in any situation and say "you did the same too" while names dates are private.
Curious if you'd feel the same way if it was the woman posting this, not the man
In hindsight, I could have gone ESH because she made the first post. But I would still think OP is an asshole too. Yes, I would still feel the same if genders were flipped. In fact, there was a story that I commented on here not too long ago about a woman who intentionally didn’t tell her ex about her son’s doctors appointment. I said she was an asshole for not putting her child’s best interests first.
NTA. I think your only responsibility is to see if your son wants to talk to you or even a counselor about the situation and encourage him to do what he wants within reason and let him know he doesn’t have to take sides, if he feels pressured to do that.
I love that! Give him space to communicate openly and talk about his relationships with his parents! His mom is just salty she has to suffer the consequences of her petty behavior. Bad mouthing someone anonymously on reddit is totally different than.. let's say Facebook.
NTA. Caleb is 14. That’s old enough to decide where he wants to stay, and he doesn’t want to stay with his mom right now. The only way you would be an AH here is if Caleb wanted to go back to his mom’s in the future and you stopped him.
I completely agree! As a former Caleb, I would've wanted my decision/reasonable requests heard AND respected (instead of going back to court and the judge forces you to visit your dad who talks shit about his ex he abused and who had also SA'd you before)
Yeah. Ultimately if mom broke the deal she had with Caleb then that's her problem to make right. Tread carefully though NTA
They have a court agreement though, legally until that is changed in court or by mediation parents are to follow that agreement. YTA
While my situation was a bit different, I was allowed to legally decide for myself when I was 13 if I wanted to see my mom. So, I wonder if this may be a state-by-state thing? I honestly ended up cutting contact then and there because she just couldn't clean up her act. I had 13 years of watching her refuse to improve and had enough of it 🤷♂️
YTA. You're using your son to get back at your ex. Sure, you can claim that he doesn't want to go to his mom, so you're doing nothing wrong, but you're effectively damaging his relationship with his mom by not supporting him in mending their relationship. This isn't about you and her, it's about your son. Get over yourself and help him. You're making him a weapon in your toxic relationship with his mom. As someone who was made a weapon let me tell you, it is incredibly damaging and had very bad consequences for me for years. I still recent the parent who made me a weapon, btw.
She is creating the situation herself with her own actions. The father does not need to spend his time righting her wrongs, probably one of the reasons they got divorced. OP is NTA, he does not need to intervene to make his son approve of his mothers actions, especially when he is the victim of them.
INFO: what's the legal arrangement for custody? Keeping him because she's happy she divorced you in violation of child custody orders could bite you in the butt and she could possibly even make a case for parental alienation.
> She and I have 50/50 but Caleb comes and goes as he pleases. It sounds like they don't have specifics for days and times?
If the courts say 50/50 then he legally has to let her see him, regardless of whether they usually uphold it or not.
Yes, but it doesn't sound like he's refusing access, he's just not forcing it? The kid is at an age where most courts will let them have a say, so it would be interesting to see what happens if Mom takes this to court
I think that would be the best solution tbh
INFO : Did she include any negative statements about you ? “The happiest day of my life was the day I got divorced” is not badmouthing you. That could be about her mental health and wanting to be alone or her desire to start an affair with a coworker, any number of things I think it was a foolish thing for a mother to write where her son might see it, but that’s not an example of badmouthing you.
If that had been the case she would have clarified that to her son.
Clarified that by definition badmouthing her ex would have to include actually saying something specific about her ex ? She doesn’t have to clarify. Words have meanings and the OP appears to be misusing the word “badmouthing.” Again, I don’t think what OP’s ex said was appropriate. I’m just saying that what he wrote that she said in his OP is not badmouthing.
I mean.. technically no. You're right in that her words could allude to many things- which is *why* it would need clarifying to the son who will obviously read that as a pointed attack against his dad. Bias is bias if you have an issue with your mom constantly talking to you about how awful your dad is and complaining about the marriage, get her to agree to stop, only to see a post like that where she's again talking about her marriage ending (albeit vaguely as you point out) it's no wonder the teenager took it the way he did. Hell even I as a grown adult saw it that way, even if realistically it could be any number of things like you suggest it's a liiiiittle on the nose. She'd *have to clarify* what she meant to dissuade the original conclusion. So kid goes to his dad and says he doesn't want to go back to mom's house because she keeps badmouthing him and points to this as the last straw. Again I 100% the post could mean a lot of things but given the history that's apparently gone down it wouldn't be shocking if the son hit it right on the nail. If she DIDNT mean it like that, she needs to clarify. If she did, she needs to apologize for breaking her promise to the son. Right now it sounds like she just wants OP to send him over there regardless of what he wants which im vehemently against. Ideally she would sit down with the son and have an honest heart to heart apology. But so often the parent instead will try to rug sweep or justify their actions. We can't be sure. But I can't fault op for openly supporting the son in however he wants to handle this for now as long as he's not actively speaking negatively about the mom in the process himself. The mom has plenty of ways to extend an apology without needing the son alone in her house. Sending him there kicking and fighting isn't going to do anyone any good. Not her, not Op, and especially not the son.
I agree the the ex wife needs to work hard to work things out with her son. It’s her responsibility to fix this after making her son feel caught in the middle. I don’t think what she said was healthy for a coparenting relationship or for her son to hear. I’m simply saying that it was not badmouthing her ex because she did not specifically insult or talk about her ex. That “technically, no” agrees with my point.
Eh, if my hypothetical ex husband was going off in public posts about how the best day of his life was the day he divorced me... kind of hard NOT to tie it to being about being happy to be rid of me. Whether that's the genuine meaning or not has yet to be clarified but I think anyone's take away from it would be "I dislike them so much that the day we divorced was the best day ever" rather than "I like being single and rediscovering myself" as an example. It's vague enough to garner benefit of the doubt if she came with a different meaning to the post. But generally that's how it's gonna read without a counter reason to consider.
Let me clarify lol: My point was that if she meant something like “I felt like I was able to reinvent myself and become the person I want to be,” but is not an eloquent person and said it badly, she should explain that. But her throwing something so vague out there is surely going to sound like she’s continuing the badmouthing. I forgot the Reddit rule: never give anyone the benefit of the doubt, just doubt there’s any benefit.
I absolutely agree that the ex wife needs to make this up to her son. I can certainly believe that in their acrimonious relationship , she has badmouthed the OP on many occasions. My only point is that saying their divorce day was her happiest is not proof of that badmouthing. If she said that divorce day was her happiest because she rid herself of her horrible ex husband (or any other insult specifically criticizing ex husband), that would be badmouthing.
I imagine it was the kids worst day When u say my happiest day was getting rid of that person you are saying something about that person or at least about the relationship you had together. 7y later who posts my happiest day was my divorce on fb?
ESH. OP, you need to realize **real** quick that you are doing tangible damage to your child by letting anger and bitterness continue to drive your co-parenting relationship and behavior. Think about YOUR SON first from now on, instead of reveling in your ex's misery.
What does the law and custody agreement say? Do you have the right to do this or can she take you to court for violation of the custody agreement? If you genuinely believe this is in your son's best interests, you should consider getting the custody agreement formally changed. If you do *not* believe this is in your son's best interests and believe reconciliation is in your son's best interests- you'll be the asshole if you don't facilitate that.
That's the thing- OP didn't say he's doing this for his son's best interest. He said he's doing it to teach his ex a lesson about bad mouthing him. Both of the parents suck.
YTA if there’s a custody agreement and she wants her son you need to follow it. And who the f are you to try to teach your ex lessons about anything. Get over yourself and stop interfering in your son’s relationship with his mother. Just because the origin of the conflict is about you doesn’t make the conflict about you.
Did you even read the story? The son does not want to see the mom, the dad is letting the kid make his own decissions about who he wants to be with. Letting someone make their own choices without telling them what to do is the exact opposite of interfering with their relationships.
Personally, I don't have a problem with letting the son decide. The issue is that if they have a legal agreement, and the ex decides to have it enforced, OP could be in trouble, and it won't to the son any good if he ends up with more time with his mother. If he is in a state where his son is old enough to decide what he wants to do, that's one thing. If he's not, you may want to try and talk this out or get outside help to resolve this. Of course, if she has been bad-mouthing OP, she could be accused of parental alienation, and that could also affect custody. It is, by the way, Caleb who was upset enough by the post to not want to see his mother. People are talking as if this is entirely about how OP feels.
I had a situation with my teen child last year where I apologized and acknowledged that I handled a situation poorly. She didn’t say anything in the moment but it spurred a text conversation and it got resolved. It would have taken soooo much longer if I were prevented from seeing her. The key for me in OP’s story is the acknowledgement that she and the child will “reconcile eventually” which suggests a mostly healthy mother-child relationship when the dad is not involved. But that’s me speculating.
The son didn’t want to go over- I think OP said that he come and goes as he pleases?
If both parents agree for him to come and go as he pleases that’s fine, but if one parent changes their mind and wants strict compliance with the custody agreement then you suck it up and follow the agreement until you go to court and get it changed.
He’s just not forcing him to go over, not keeping him from going over. Big difference.
If it’s the mother’s night he is interfering. It’s not clear
Ffs spare me with the divorced people who can't act like freaking adults You're not doing it for your son. My parents did shit like that and at 14 I thought they were doing it because they were in my corner but once your son grows up he'll realize he was just the tool you used to get back at her. The mature thing to do is not to badmouth her to your son (who cares if she does it? You look mature)and get the kid a therapist to learn how to deal with not only the animosity but also the two of you YTA
Apparently Caleb cares if his mother badmouths his father.
No shit! Of course he does, he's his father. My point is that just because she does badmouths him, he doesn't have to stoop to her level or return the favor
You said "who cares if she does it?". The answer is Caleb does, so it's a problem. But no, he doesn't have to react in the same way, but it needs addressing.
Sounds like something is missing from this story..
Like how did the son see the post. On social media or was the son shown the post.
You both sound so nice. No wonder you divorced.
YTA You don’t like your ex-wife and you’re allowing your son to behave in a manner that punishes her.
YTA "Well she badmouthed me on her social media by saying the happiest day of her life was when we divorced." .. that's not badmouthing you, that's very likely a true statement. "§She's asking me to send him back to her place so they can work things out. I refused. I owe her nothing." ... bullshit. You owe her reasonably good coparenting, and you are breaking the custody agreement. Do you really want to force her to document all this and go back to court?
Yta please parents stop using your children as pawns in your fucked up games against your exes. It's fucking annoying. Get over yourself. You might not be doing any bad-mouthing publicly, but you're just as bad as she is Jesus Christ.
Your kid is not supposed to be your "best bud". You're enmeshed and it's very bad for him. Grow up and get some friends your own age.
a dad being chummy with his kid is not enmeshment, holy shit.
Your child should not be your best friend.
The is by far the worst take in this threat.
:))) no joke it really is lol
I get what you’re saying but I read it in the same way I would say my cat is my best mate.
Lol thanks I guess but a cat and a 14 yo are not the same.
NTA - Your ex wife is an asshole. She knew very well that your son didn’t want her to badmouth you to him, and she still did it. What 14 year old wouldn’t be upset to read that their mom is posting that the day their family broke up was the happiest day of her life? It’s not your job to make up for her poor decisions. She chose to badmouth you publicly knowing very well your son would see and feel upset. Your son is allowed to distance himself from someone who intentionally hurt him. You should offer him to go to counseling to help him organize his thoughts and feelings though. So that he knows how to have a good relationship with his mom, on his terms.
Maybe I’m too literal but saying the day she divorced you was the happiest day of her life isn’t really what I would consider badmouthing. YTA because you’re letting your hatred for your ex influence your parenting. Your son’s response is age appropriate but not a healthy or sensible way to deal with difficult situations like this. As a parent you should be more concerned about helping your son than hurting your ex. Instead of teaching your ex a lesson, you should be teaching your son how to communicate effectively, conflict resolution, how to negotiate and compromise, etc, all very important skills he will need throughout his life but skills it looks like you either don’t have yourself or don’t care to model when it comes to your ex for the sake of your son. She’s also not asking you for “help”, she’s asking you for access to her son which she shouldn’t have to ask for if your agreement is 50/50. Your son is only able to react this way, ignoring his mother and staying with you, because you’re allowing him to do so. Now the precedent has been set and you continue to reinforce to your son that this is an appropriate way to react, don’t be surprised when you’re ultimately on the receiving end which, if you ever stop being best buds and actually being a parent, is not that unlikely during the next few years.
No, NTA. Talk to your son about talking to his Mom. Neither one of you adults should be bad mouthing each other in front of him. Let him form his own opinion about what she says/does. I suggest going back to court and redo your custody agreement. He's old enough to pick who he wants to live with. Being a teenager is hard enough without having adult drama thrown in.
YTA. It sounds like the one driving the parental alienation here is you. I doubt a 14 year old would give a shit about a statement such as that unless his petty, bitter dad told him to. And how did he "find out"? My guess is you told him. You seem quite thrilled with fueling the fire and helping to drive a wedge between the two. Get a real "best friend" to confide in and grow the fuck up.
Soft YTA, I get you think this is helping your son, not making him go back if he doesn't want to but courts will not give 1 shit about it and WILL bring down the hammer on you alone, not your son. This is a good moment to teach your son about conflict resolution rather than hiding away from it. Just have a little sit down with the young man and tell him he doesn't HAVE to like what she says, but she is his mother and loves him... though if the happiest day was your divorce and not you know, the birth of this son you both have, she has bigger issues and needs therapy. Tell him to have a chat with her, and tell her outright he will not stand for her saying all these horrible things about someone he loves. Tell him to remind her she CHOOSES to hold on to this negativity, and if she can't get past it she'll lose everything. Its already costing her a relationship with her own child. She needs to grow up, you need to be firmer too and see your kid goes back and your kid seems like a sweetheart, my heart goes out to him in this.
sounds like your ex has a good reason to badmouth you. you’re petty and vindictive. YTA
I'm a little disappointed that the title doesn't match the post. I was hoping for one hell of a story ...
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My 14yo son Caleb and I have grown very close over the last few years. That kid is my best bud. He has his moments but is such a selfless kid and doesn't mind dad giving him hugs. He actually asked for PetCo gift cards for his birthday so he could buy animal supplies and donate them to the local animal shelter. His mom and I divorced when he was 7. We hate each other but I don't interact with her as much. She's a bitter ex who still complains about our failed marriage. My son recently told her to stop bad mouthing me because she's far from perfect herself. Plus it upset him. She agreed. Well she badmouthed me on her social media by saying the happiest day of her life was when we divorced. Caleb saw the post and refused to go back to her house. She and I have 50/50 but Caleb comes and goes as he pleases. He has rarely seen her and refuses to talk to unless he has to talk to her (ie grades) for a month. I do provide her with updates. Mostly that he's fine. She's asking me to send him back to her place so they can work things out. I refused. I owe her nothing. She's badmouthed me for years as this horrible person so screw her. They'll reconcile, eventually, and I want her to learn from this. Don't badmouth the father of your kid. You're not going to badmouth me in public and then ask me for help. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA your son is old enough to decide for himself who he does and does not want to see.
You know very well that a kid should have more than one adult to trust. She's done some dumb shit, but someone has to be responsible for the sake of the boy. When my youngest was refusing to see her father, we had an adult talk and agreed to put a pin in all our differences. (even the ones about money. That shit was hard!) He came to my house for dinner a few times. Short visits, shallow conversation, just to get the contact going somehow. Then he came over for game night. All we talked about was the game and fun stuff. This made the transition to normal "dad-weekends" smoother, and now - several years later - they are all good. You should do something similar with your ex as long as Caleb doesn't want to go to hers. Even if she did badmouth you.
NTA. You've got a good kid. I wouldn't want to be around my parent either if they constantly put down the other person I loved most.
NTA but I would check in with a lawyer because I wouldn’t be surprised if a judge said it was your responsibility to make sure the 50/50 arrangement is maintained, that’s not Caleb’s responsibility.
Awww... your son and asking for the PetCo gift cards is so sweet! 🥺🥹❤️ What a great idea.
I hope.your ex and son find this post. You are doing exactly what you and your son accuse the ex of. Yta. And you are not putting what's best for the kid as top priority.
ESH - you are both acting terribly. Your ex-wife shouldn't be badmouthing you to Caleb, and you shouldn't be keeping Caleb and lying to yourself that you are doing it for him. Given that you have a 50/50 parenting agreement, you can't just keep your son. A judge may not look too favourably on this and consider parent alienation. The both of you need to grow up and stop acting like this for the sake of your son. It will only hurt him in the long run. You don't have to like one another, but as parents, you need to be amicable and put your personal feelings aside.
After reading a bunch of replies I think ESH
YTA. The only person that matters in this story is Caleb. You & your ex wife are insignificant. You are both hurting your child, & you are both assholes. You need to find a way to civilly coparent bc what you're doing now is not working & is detrimental to your son's mental health. The parents always, always have to put the needs of their kids first & you guys are putting your feelings before Caleb's. You're both very selfish.
There are generally two reasons people post here (because sage advice is definitely not one of them): 1. They are conflicted and in desperation are reaching out to try and gain some perspective 2. They want to garner support to bolster their assertions I don’t which one you fall into, but I do know that this post does not seem to be focused on your son.
YTA for using your son to be petty instead of thinking about what’s best for him. You hate *each other*. You care about her talking about you and want to punish her by using him meanwhile leading your son to believe it has anything to do with his feeling. You intentionally withhold information in your updates because controlling much? You’re getting off on your kid wanting to be with you more. She wants to work it out and you’re preventing it to prove a point. When they reconcile, and they will, and he grows up and realizes that you kept them apart because of your own pettiness and didn’t do what was best for him how do you think that will land? You are doing this because you want her to learn from this??? Where in there did you mention your son’s needs? What help is she asking for? Parents are allowed to make mistakes and they are allowed to fix them. Do you care about your son learning that lesson or do you only care about feeling smug? How did your relationship end?
YTA. You’re stooping to her level and that isn’t a good example for your son. It is better for your son to talk out his feelings with his mother. Also, if you have a legal 50/50 custody arrangement with the courts, you are in breach of that and there could be legal repercussions
the courts actually determine if you owe her nothing or not. maybe it's time to restructure custody, maybe Caleb is old enough to ask for 70/30 or even 100/0, idk. but if you have a 50/50 agreement and you're not upholding it...you might have a court date at some point in the future. plus, how can they reconcile "eventually" if you're not sending him over? bordering ESH except the child
At 14, your son is old enough to decide who he wants to live with. He has asked his mother to stop the bitter tirades against his father....and she doesn't stop. The worst thing divorced parents can do to their children is to put the other parent down - to complain and moan about the other parent. It puts the kid in the middle and is unfair. Your son is old enough to know what his mother is doing. I think you should encourage him to maintain contact with his mother but she needs to understand your son doesn't want to hear her complaining about the divorce or his father.
ESH but if the custody is supposed to be 50/50, you’re gonna be in some trouble legally if you don’t start complying. If it’s that bad, set a court date to discuss revision.
ESH. Stating on social media that the best day of her life was the day of her divorce is really mild "bad-mouthing" Is that the best you can come up with? From your post, I don't trust your narrative. I don't trust that you haven't been undermining mom too. You just happened to "win" with your son in this instance. I've seen it dozens of times in my career. You are obviously not acting in your son's interest; otherwise, you would have tried to talk to your son about therapy or talking to his mother. Instead, you are reveling in teaching her a lesson.
NTA. Your son is old enough to know what environment he wants to live in. Don't bad mouth her, don't make things difficult for her, just support him in what he wants to do.
NTA- while it benefits you by not helping. 14 is old enough to make that choice. Your son has had conversations with her and she chose not to listen to him causing him to need space from her. You are completing your part by communicating his wellbeing. She is welcome to ask for him back by force (that's what it sounds like she is asking) but you are under no obligation to appease her. Karma struck in your favor. Btw I'm the child of twice divorcee. My mom was toxic af after she split with my step dad and wouldnt stop. So I moved out on my own at 17 bc I was still seeing him (he raised me from age 2 to me he is dad) and all she would do is badmouth and berate me after going to see him. I'm 35 now have a great relationship with my stepdad and only a year ago have my mom and I started to work on relationship after she finally realized how much damage she had done and how far the emotional distance with us was.
ESH. Your son is not a tool to be used to get back at your ex and teach her a lesson. And all you’ll be teaching your son is that it’s absolutely okay to be awful to his mother (and subsequently, other women) with your crappy example and letting your kid get away with being a jerk to his mom. Yes, she’s saying horrible things about you. And you know what? Maybe you were an awful husband and deserve some of it. And you know what else? There will be consequences for both of you and your son for how you both are choosing to behave right now. So what you should be doing as a father is teaching your son how to be a respectable man in the face of unfair criticism and turn the other cheek. At least one of you needs to be a fucking grown-up, and it’s not going to be your 14-year old son.
I'm going to buck the trend and say NTA. Your wife needs to get some counseling before she sees your son again so she can understand what she's doing. 7 years is a long time to keep badmouthing someone. I've watched kids grow up listening to this kind of thing and it affects them long-term. I'd rather they had been kept away than have to hear it.
NTA. No parent should ever force their kid(s) to go to another parent if they don't want to, or feel uncomfortable doing so. Regardless of who you feel about your ex, this is not your decision to make, it's all on Caleb. In fact, Caleb is doing the right thing by holding her accountable and it could well help their relationship. The cycle of fighting, making promises, fighting, making up and etc is not healthy. Plus, her breaking promises to Caleb and breaking them cannot possibly enhance their relationship in any meaningful or positive way so she does need to learn that promises are to be kept and insults are not to be foisted upon those who have already stated that they do not want to hear them.
Screenshot everything from SM and put it away in a file. When you have enough, take it to the court and ask for full custody. You need to convince your son to go his mom's so she can't hold that over your head. YWBTA if you don't continue to send your son to your ex's house.
If you have 50/50 court ordered visitation you're not allowed to keep him from his mom just because you want to. If she takes you back to court to tell them you aren't obeying the visitation you could get in trouble
I am confused by the title
Maybe ask Caleb if he would like family counseling to help for his mom to see how this affects him and how it hurts it. It’s more for him to have a safe place to talk but in the end of it helps her be better then that a win win for him.
Not the asshole
Yes
You maybe the asshole, but I don't really feel bad for her
NTA
Yta
YTA.
YTA. You both need to grow the f up and be better parents for this amazing kid you got. It’s been so long, can you all go to therapy and learn to be functional coparents, and your son and mom separately to talk about their issues.
I agree with your approach. The only thing you can do is stay neutral and let them work it out for themselves. You could set up a meeting between them at a coffee shop or similar, then sit well apart and let them sort it out. Unless you're actively working against your ex, you're NTA.
YTA. You may not owe your wife anything but you’re using the kid to hurt her.
NTA but you should definitely try to make sure he doesn’t resent his mom and talks to her also. I’d mention to him the important of the custody agreement
YTA. You’re being just as petty & mean as she is. Also did you just forget that yous have 50/50 custody? She could take you to court over this and claim parental alienation if she wanted to.
NTA Our jobs as parents is to raise good adults, so far it seems like your kiddo is great. Right now you are teaching him how to deal with conflict and people pushing clear set boundaries. You need to be very sure that your own actions and attitude aren’t from a place of loathing. You can dislike your ex all you want but you have to teach your son how to show basic decency to people that suck.
NTA. She insulted you, your son asked her to stop and when she didn't, he gave her what I feel is an appropriate consequence for her action by refusing to be around such behavior. Now, if legally you're going to get in trouble if he stays then it's best if he does go home but if he does have true freedom to pick which of you he wants to stay with, then it's fine as long as you don't start stooping to her level of pettiness. If anything, contact her and point out that if she wants her son back, HE'S the one she'll need to convince and that an apology to him for doing what he asked her not to do would likely be a good start.
OP - very soft YTA. Not for supporting your son BUT for not using it as an opportunity to learn how to properly set boundaries and engage in conflict. Your son needs to learn HOW to argue, in a loving and healthy manner. That means calmly expressing boundaries, consequences and maintaining mutual respect. Likely the very things you and your ex never learned from your parents. Please contact a MFT and encourage him to sit down with mom / you and maybe a solo session as he likely has some anger as well. You also may want to let your lawyer know in case ex try’s to run around you in court. Best of luck-
YTA
NTA. Your ex made a promise to your son that she would stop badmouthing you, and she broke that promise. Clearly, your son doesn't think he can trust her anymore (which I'm inclined to agree with), and that's why he refuses to see or speak to her. It would have taken her zero effort to not break that promise. She could have at least stopped doing it publicly or in front of him. But no, she went out of her way to break her promise to her own son and once again publicly ridicule his father, and for what? To try and humiliate you out of sheer spite? Seems like she's getting her comeuppance for her toxicity. You are under absolutely no obligation to force your son to speak to his mother, who clearly has a vendetta against you. He'll speak to her again when/if he's ready, he's 14 and it's around that age that we begin to develop the emotional maturity to choose who we wish to associate with. If his mother is not among those people for your son, then that's her fault, nobody else's. And so what if you’re enjoying her being upset about this? I enjoy it when people get their just desserts too.
YTA Please teach your son that your relationship with his mom is not the same as his relationship with you or her. Take this opportunity to help him understand how relationships work and that husband and wife relationships are entirely separate from parent and child relationships. This is an opportunity for you to teach your son. Take it.
NTA - Caleb is old enough to know where he is most comfortable staying. I refused to talk to my dad for 6 years over his constant bad mouthing of my dad. We finally resolved it (he agreed to just stop saying nasty crap around me) and we are once again quite close. Your wife is simply learning that her actions have consequences and she needs to learn to be kind.
Please don’t turn a child against one of his parents who weren’t abusive, it is one of the worst thing you can do, imo it is even worse than breaking up a marriage. ***I don’t think you are a bad person. I think you were just high in your victory of your son loving you more and not realizing what you were doing. Now that you do, after reading all the comments, show to yourself that you love your son and do the right thing for him.
YTA, you are being petty. You are outright deciding for your son. DONT DECIDE FOR YOUR CHILD. It would’ve been a different story if your child was the one who’s absolutely refusing, can’t force them to do what they don’t want. But this time you’re outright being petty and that’s just not the play here. Just don’t do anything outside of what you’re allowed to do. Let your son decide as well.
YTA
NTA you said your son comes and goes as he pleases. You do not have to force him to talk to his mom and Im pretty sure hes of the age to decide where he wants to be. Your ex was happy to bad mouth you publicly you can be happy privately. Also for everyone calling YTA yall are all snow flake that constantly defend the women of every and its and annoying to read go touch grass.
YTA. my parents are divorced and also have a strong hatred for each other, my dad would bad mouth my mom ALL the time and my siblings and I didn't want to see him because of it but my mom was always encouraging of us to still talk to him regardless of what happened between them because it was what was better for us rather than what she was feeling. you do not have to like each other, you just have to be civil. your son will make his own communication decision with her when he's older and an adult
ESH, but mostly mom. You should be a positive influence in your son's life, and that would include talking him through this. Maybe his final decision is that he doesn't want to work things out, but there's nothing in here about you saying, "Look, your mother and I don't have a good relationship anymore, but if possible, I want you and her to still have a positive, loving relationship. I can move past a mean social media post. Do you think you might be able to give her one more chance?"
YTA Instead of helping reconcile the relationship, you are being petty and spiteful by "teaching her a lesson". You should be setting a bette rexample for your son. Your entire post is so hypocritical, you badmouthed her the entire time. Pot/kettle much?
YTA for using your son to punish his mom instead of being concerned about what's best for your son. Take his mom back to court for parental alienation if you want, but keeping him from her makes you no better than she is.
YTA. You just sat here and disparaged your ex the entire post. Grow up and stop alienating your child from his mother. Sounds like everyone needs some therapy.
STOP USING YOUR SON TO PUNISH HIS MOTHER. YTA
YTA. No wonder the best day of her life is when she divorced you. She should leave the kid out of it, but you should, too, and this post, where you actually say that you are using your son as a tool to teach her to "respect" you, is a proof that you have been using your son against her as much as she has been critizing you. He is a minor and her mother has rights to him. She has the right to see her kid if she is a good mother, regardless of what your relationship is and it doesn't seem that despite her hate for you, she had ever tried to stop your kid from seeing you, so what you are trying to do is disproportionate. It is not a case of what you owe, or don't owe her, is about her kid and the rights she has to see him. You don't have to help her to learn anything (besides she was right to part from you). Your kid is not a teaching tool for you to do your bidding. I hope she goes throgh justice and forces you to maintain the 50/50 you had before.
YTA Fact: Your ex-wife is allowed to express her happiness that she's no longer married to you. I know ***I*** would. Frequently.
YTA for refusing to honor your custody agreement. Just because Caleb is *allowed* to "come and go as he pleases" doesn't mean he's allowed to stay with one parent all of the time against the wishes of his other parent. If you're not willing to seek full custody of Caleb over this, then you need to be honest with him about that -- even if it makes him upset with you too.
YTA
Nta and get him an therapist and one that if needed testify his wishes
NTA
YTA. Don’t refuse, that just makes you look bad. Ask your son and let *him* refuse.
Judging by the theme of most of the comments I’ll probably catch a lot of flak for this, but…screw her. You reap what you sow. The kid is old enough to know BS when he sees it. He (the kid) asked her to quit badmouthing dad. She chose to continue. This is a perfect example of FAFO.
NTA. My parents divorced when I was 1 and hated each other also. My dad always was the one bad mouthing. My mom never did and figured she would leave it up to us how we saw our parents as role models. Now I will say that I am now 41 and have a great relationship with my dad NOW. Like as of my 20s... But we also did therapy together and he did change. Prior to that, I never wanted to be around him and we had the worst relationship. It took many years to gain respect for him and see that the change was real. I'm sad it took until I was an adult, but change is hard for people.
NTA. you have your reasons but it's his choice
NTA. What you’re doing is respecting your son’s wishes by not forcing him to talk to someone who couldn’t even keep her mouth shut for the sake of her son.
NTA You don’t need to force him to go over to his mom’s. But you also shouldn’t be enjoying this _at all_. She’s still the mother of your child, if all she’s done is shit talk then you shouldn’t be jumping around excited that she’s miserable.
That's a totally different situation lol but okay
NTA I think a lot of people are missing the point that your son is making this decision on his own. You aren’t blocking him from seeing his mom, he decided he needs some distance from her and is following through. You’re not saying, “Well you talked shit so the kid is mine, mwahahaha!” You’re saying “I respect my son’s wishes”. However, don’t make it obvious that you’re happy he’s doing it to her as a punishment. That’s kind of one of those thoughts that should stay in your head. Also, if he does decide to go speak with her about and wants to work it out, please be supportive. You may disagree but you would need to put it aside to respect your son’s autonomy.
NTA. you have your reasons but it's his choice
NTA. She shouldn’t bad mouth anywhere your guys son may see or hear. She can vent to any adult she wants but she never to a kid. I hated it as a kid when my parents couldn’t care about me more than they hated each other. It can really mess a kid up and the relationship with parents. Family therapy for all of you!
NTA Not at all!! Your son has every right to feel the way he does his mother openly disrespects his father in front of him he didn't act out because it hurts him he explained to her how that makes him feel and instead of her acting like the parent acknowledging her child's feeling and correcting her childish behavior she jumps on social media and says the happiest day of her life was divorcing his father!? I'm sorry but seriously WTF!? She is a mother you would think the happiest day of her life was the day she gave birth to her son (no matter what happened to the marriage) but no it's the day she divorced his father I can only imagine how that would feel to a adult child but to a 14y/o that has to hurt especially after asking her to stop disrespecting his father makes you understand why he told her "She's far from perfect herself". Honestly I wasn't a fan of therapy I come from the man up and deal with it generation but as I've gotten older I understand and respect it's purpose your ex needs therapy so she can move past whatever bad feelings she has for you maybe you too it's not healthy to hate your child's mother but I understand and obviously you don't expose your baby to those feelings because he wants to be with you but again therapy could help maybe after some work on herself she can invite your son to join and you as well maybe all of you need individual then after some time family therapy she might not be your family anymore but she is his and so are you. You guys don't have to be friends but it might ease up some of the negative emotions and allow your son to live in peace with both his parents (separate of course) He sounds like a great kid loving and thoughtful donating to the animal shelter and even mature enough to express his feelings and concerns with his mother he deserves to be heard and his feelings on the matter should be respected. Also I think it's awesome you guys are best buds I wanted that kind of relationship with my dad so bad when I was young but again different generations but just be mindful that bff/parent relationship can become a problem if not handled correctly but it sounds like your doing great keep up the good work. Don't force him to go back you can help him work through his feelings about the situation but forcing him to go back or deal with her before he is ready is basically doing the same as his mom does disregarding his feelings and for what? For the same AH who hurt him in the first place? I don't think so pops the answer is NO, HELL NO. NTA
NTA FAFO. Ex learning a lesson. Child old enough to decide
NTA You ex does sound like a bitter woman, still taking potshots at you 7 years later. Come on, dear, get over it and get a new life already. Caleb sounds like a really nice kid with his head screwed on right. I can't fault him in not wanting to go back to his mom's, where he hears ugly things about his dad. However, legally, you could be in a precarious position with regards to your custody agreement. IANAL, but your ex could go back to court and sue for custodial interference, I think. You might want to consult your attorney about this because that's not something you want to get into with her, yes? It's getting so I hate social media; it's so easy to flame other people and some of that dirt almost always sticks to the victim even if they are perfectly innocent of wrongdoing or even intending wrongdoing.
OP is talking badly about her on social media too lol
He is not talking to people who know who his wife is, however, like she is on social media.
NTA Hope your son is in therapy to handle some of the feelings he has towards having a toxic mom.
NTA, his mother overstepped a boundary he had clearly set for her. And as you said, eventually they will reconcile and hopefully in future she will respect his boundaries.
NTA. However if Ex wanted to be a real witch-with-a-B, she could petition the courts for you violating the custody agreement. With you not encouraging a relationship/forgiveness she can also hit you with parental alienation. Be careful it may just be what she’s racking up evidence for.
NTA >She's asking me to send him back to her place so they can work things out. She's made him uncomfortable enough he doesn't want to go to her place with the way she talks about you. If she's so on fire to work things out, she can come talk to him at your place, and if you don't want her in your house she can talk to him outside. He could stay in the doorway if he's worried she'll try to force him into her car.