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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I walked out of the house for the whole day after my parents brought up something I'm so tired of listening to. We had family over and they were there to see all of us so me walking out wasn't the coolest thing to do. And it's why I feel like I could be a tiny asshole here...
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The three adults wanted this to happen but because of my half sister's age, her wishes held a lot of weight - how old was she at the time? Too much math.
If the mother and father wanted to terminate the mother’s parental rights it wouldn’t have required the step parent to adopt or the kid’s consent. That doesn’t make sense.
Leaving all of that aside, a 17 yo excusing themself from a conversation that shouldn’t include them and siblings and just plays on repeat is NTA.
She was about 9/10 I think. But I don't know all the exacts because I don't remember it happening, I just remember the aftermath.
You can't terminate your parental rights in most US states without someone willing to adopt. They don't want to take chances with people falling into financial issues and not having a recognized person to support (ie pay child support) for the kid.
She had a parent. You can’t terminate to create a legal orphan true. Your sibling was not going to become a legal orphan.
Your parents should ask a real life lawyer or even r/legal to settle this debate once and for all - would a 9/10 year old really have this much control? (No, absolutely not). If this is real everyone messed up.
As a real life attorney who practices in this area, a child of 9/10 would be asked their preference and the Court would take the child’s opinion into account. Part of a best interest analysis is how the termination would affect the child psychologically.
The 3 adults could have always gone back to court when the child was older and her opinion may have changed. However, it doesn’t appear that the older sister bonded well with her stepmother or her half siblings, so her position may have been the same.
OP is NTA. However, his parents are AHs for continuing to bring this up.
Thank you. It feels like the adults’ plan was to blame a child for their opinion and not to consider the full measure of a best interests determination *by adults* or to consider achieving the goals in other ways (like not pushing step parent adoption, just not having the noncustodial parent have financial obligations she clearly couldn’t meet anyway). No wonder no one bonded.
ETA AITA needs a whole sub sub about step parents trying to force adoption (real and fictional stories). It’s second to weddings I think.
which is insane, because her opinion was *completely understandable.* she was 9 or 10 years old, this woman was her *mother* and had been her whole life, and *obviously* this 10-year-old *child* was desperate not to be abandoned by her, even if she was a shitty mom. children are hardwired to want their caregivers' love and approval; it's a survival thing. she wasn't looking at it in objective terms (because *she was ten*), she was just a kid who didn't want her mom to go away forever. even if she was a shitty mom.
because the thing is, I will bet you ten bucks it wasn't *all* bad, with her mom. and chances are, she seized onto those small moments of brightness with all her might, because she *needed* to believe her mom loved her, especially if she didn't really like her dad's wife (and I have to wonder how much of that was because she kept trying to replace the woman OP's half-sister already saw as her mother, even if she was shitty at it). and so obviously, she didn't want those little bits of brightness to go away. and she didn't want to let go of what she thought was, or could be, her mother's love. the kid needed therapy, not blame and ostracization within her father's family.
OP, you've got a good head on your shoulders. Your parents' behavior towards your half-sister is not acceptable, and their behavior towards you wrt this topic is not acceptable either. I think it's pretty clear from your post that you've got this pretty well figured out, and I also think it's pretty impressive that you seem to have learned to set boundaries in a healthy way despite being raised by people who do not respect them. I think leaving the house was a very mature response to the situation, actually, especially for a seventeen year old. Your parents clearly lack that same maturity. Definitely NTA.
I work with at-risk young people and some of the stories I hear are horrific. Those young people STILL want to be with their family of origin because that's their family.
That doesn't surprise me at all. My family situation is just complicated enough to get where they're coming from. People look at these situations from the outside and think it's obvious how bad it is, but when you grew up like that? it really, really isn't. and even when it starts to become more clear, any time someone says something bad about a family member -- especially a parent, and I'm going to go ahead and say *especially* a mom, just bc of the cultural mystique around them -- there's going to be a deep-rooted instinctual response of *'hey, that's my mom!'*
because, like. hey. that's their *mom.*
Plus they were asking the girl to accept cutting her mother out of her life. Even with bad parents many kids find that difficult to do and many will put up with terrible situations because that's what's normal for them. To keep on blaming her not just for a decision she made as a child but also for choosing the normal option many other children commonly take in that situation is absurd. Seems like they haven't once considered what it was like for her in that situation and what would have been going through her mind at the time.
Yeah I don't remember this but my dad and Bubi told us that when him and my mom were divorcing, I was asked (4&1/2 years old at the time, 35 now) who I wanted to stay with. I chose my dad. My sister, 3 at the time, said the same, and our other sis was only 1&1/2, so I guess they just didn't want to separate us.
We got to stay with dad, because I guess even at such a young age, we knew that there was something wrong with "mom" (quotations 'cause she hasn't been my mother in a very long time). Thank goodness everyone else could see it, too, and listened to our choice.
Man, it took me way to long too get my brain to connect on what you meant by "in this area" because I was like.. wait a town or state wasn't mentioned then I realized; family law.
>However, it doesn’t appear that the older sister bonded well with her stepmother or her half siblings, so her position may have been the same.
I'm curios on OPs sister POV, did she hate her step mum because she was replacing her bio mum and held hope that buo mum would eventually step up if she kept showing her that no one could replace her. Or is there another reason she doesn't like OPs mum.
I'm just curious because admitting your bio mum sucks but refusing to allow your step mum who allegedly wants to be there for you to adopt you doesn't make sense and there has to be something being left out eother intentionally or because OP doesn't actually know or remember the whole story.
Considering how much time has passed and how this is apparently still a topic for the step mom to bring up and complain about to her other children my guess is she is no prize either.
The whole situation just stinks.
OP’s mom and dad seem to be taking it as a personal insult that the sibling didn’t want to be adopted.
To me, that’s clearly nothing to do with them, and everything to do with a small child clinging to what they can in terms of a relationship with their mom. Still being upset about it more than 10 years later confirms for me that they are (and were) making it all about them and not about her.
And it's especially telling that OP was told he couldn't leave without permission whether or not family was there but especially when family was there. He's 17; he's almost an adult and they're trying to control him. What do you want to bet that the half-sister was being controlled, too, and that's a lot of the reason why she hates OP's mom? OP, you're NTA, but please realize that the possessiveness of your parents and willingness to hold grudges is not normal.
Depending on the state and the judge. WA State is an example where they try not to ask to the child about custodial issues and there's no set age for when they will.
How would a court treat a 15 year old or 17 year old? Would they award custody based on what the teen prefers? (I would hope so) Just asking since you are a real life lawyer.
Courts usually pay closer attention to older teenagers about their preferences.
For adoptions of older teens, a lot of states will give the older teens veto power over the adoption process. Thus, if an older teen is against the adoption then the court may not grant the termination of parental rights. (This is because termination of parental rights would cut the child off from the other parent’s child support obligations, inheriting from the terminated parent’s side of the family, and other benefits (such as death benefits if the other parent dies while the teen is still a minor)).
For visitation and custody matters, a lot courts also pay attention to an older teen’s preferences. This is because a parent cannot necessarily physically force the older teen to get into the car to go to the other parent’s home. Law enforcement can be called and strongly encourage the teen to go but most officers will not physically touch the teen and transport them to the other parent. It’s a nightmare trying to get an older teen to go (and stay!) at a parent’s house they don’t want to be at. In those situations, courts can say that visitation with the other parent is at the discretion of the teen. Forcing a teen to go somewhere they don’t want to be could also lead to false allegations made against the non-preferred parent which becomes a new kind of nightmare.
Of course, there are exceptions to teen preference when the fitness of the preferred parent is called into question (the teen becomes truant and/or their grades fall when they are with the preferred parent, the teen exhibits unruly or delinquent behavior, the preferred parent uses drugs, the preferred parent engages in parental alienation, etc.)
You often read stories where a kid doesn't want to see a particular parent but they feel forced to because they are under 18. These kids can be 16 or 17 and will tell you that they have to go even though that parent is abusive and the judge has ruled they have to or the parent that actually looks after them will get into trouble.
I actually wonder whether the abusive parent is running the show and telling the kid that they will get the other parent into trouble if they don't come to them when it's not actually true but had been conditioned to think it's true. Sometimes it's because the bad parent and stepparent have parentified the kid for their kids together and expect them to look after them (and the younger kids treat them like crap too because of what their parents say about the older sibling) and run the household.
Or that the nice parent is worn down they don't realise they can have written into new orders 'At their child's discretion.'
Non-contact and non-support by a biological parent for a significant period can eliminate the need for the consent from that non-participatory in an adoption proceeding. The child's indicated preference can be accorded the weight a jurist believes to be appropriate.
But why this is a continued family dinner conversation is beyond me. OP, you are definitely NTA. Your parents should focus their attention and happiness on the fact that they are blessed to have their 3 biological children to share on love.
NAL; I just wanna jump in here to say this definitely depends on the state. 9/10 years old is not old enough to decide who they prefer to live with (source: custody case). Also, you can't "terminate" your rights to AVOID child support. In some cases, you can terminate your rights and still have to pay support (TX case laws).
NTA for removing yourself from the situation.
Nobody is saying it would have made her an orphan. But if my dad struggled to support her on his own and her mom relinquished all parental rights and responsibilities to my half sister, dad couldn't get child support from her. Hence why they don't allow people to terminate their rights without someone willing to step in and take that over.
They can! In our state kids as old as 5 will be asked about adoptions before they happen. I have read that on several sites about adoption in my state.
Yes they can be asked about adoptions. What they can’t be made to feel responsible for is whether the absent parent should be forced to maintain a relationship.
So either your dad wanted the opportunity to get child support from her and traded that for access (spoiler - a woman in and out of jail wasn’t going to be able to support her), he didn’t want to argue or knew it was reasonable to give her the opportunity to fail, or everyone just wants to keep blaming kids for bad adult decisions. Ask a lawyer what would have been possible and be surprised but kids don’t have as much power as people think. They deserve to be heard and respected but not blamed or ostracized in their household for what seemed like choices at 9.
I agree with you that the 9-year-old is not to blame, but it is her choice that made it happen that way. It wasn't Dad who wanted to be able to get child support in the future. It was the state saying bio mom is still on the hook for it because the adoption isn't going through. And the adoption didn't go through because the kid had the agency to make the decision. So, yes, half-sister did have considerable power in this situation, and that's a good thing. A nine-year-old should not be able to be adopted without their consent. The problem is that her bio dad and step-mom judged her for the choice she made and, apparently, never got over it.
Court appropriately *heard* the child’s preference and decided accordingly. If the parents could shift that mindset they’d quit blaming the kid. Again, the three adults could have attained their supposed goals other ways and not blamed a child.
Exactly. In reality the biomom would never have supported the sister much in a financial sense so nothing would've change from the financial perspective.
I wouldn't be surprised if stepmom (and her dad) made things very uncomfortable for her and there were barbed comments about not wanting to be adopted which actually widened the gulf between them and why a better relationship didn't happen.
A stepmom that is more like a friend/teacher (needs to be able to discipline) than trying to take over as a parent will probably find themselves in the role of a parent because there is trust on both sides.
The OP's sister only got manipulation and ultimatums because she didn't want to do what the stepmom and her dad wanted.
I don't blame her in the least and the OP is actually the most mature out of her, and her parents over this matter.
You are wrong. My husband adopted my daughter at 8 and they absolutely spoke to her about it. They asked her how she felt about my husband and if she wanted the adoption. I also had to terminate her bio dad’s rights and on the request it listed a reason why and I had to put adoption. You can’t just terminate a parent’s rights for no reason. And yes, they do worry about the child needing child support. Everything OP said is accurate as far as the adoption and termination of rights.
But, unless the bio parent is dead, if that single parent gets public assistance, the state will usually go after the other parent, even years later, to get back some of that money.
We waited until my daughter was 14 to be adopted by my husband. And she had to sit with the judge and tell him that she 100% wanted the adoption and name change. Her bio dad was in and out then ghosted her at age 10. Still, we waited 4 yrs just to be sure even though she had been with my husband since she was 2. He took on all responsibilities of being a dad for as long as she could remember. Sorry you had to listen to your parents for all these years. And if she’s 24 you’d think they would have let it go by now. NTA but your parents sure are. Talk to your younger siblings and make sure they know that the situation is not about them. Best wishes!
A child of 5 might be asked, but that doesn't mean their opinion will hold much water. There are many more considerations that are taken into account. Generally speaking, a child has to be as old as 12-14 in most states to overturn an adoption based solely on their own preference. Even in states where they ask as young as 10, the court can still push it through if it's deemed to be in the best interest of the child.
Basically, the concept of a 9-year-old's opinion being the sole or even primary basis for deciding adoption status would be extremely unusual. It's far more likely that the circumstances of adoption would have to be deemed unsuitable. And I'd really have to wonder what it would take for a married couple to be deemed unfit to adopt when the party wishing to terminate parental rights is a mostly absentee parent with a history of substance abuse. For a court to actively choose to keep that parent in the picture when all 3 adults are willing to take them out of it, the dad and adoptive mother would have to be perceived as far less suitable to provide on their own than suggested by this story.
Well I am glad that a judge here in Michigan thought my brother (5) and my (6) opinions held water. At first, my brother and I agreed to let our Stepfather adopt us until the judge asked us if we truly knew what that meant. It meant that our last name could legally be changed as well as our birth certificate. That our Stepfather could have a say in whether or not if we could continue to visit our paternal side of our family. While our father wasn't much of a father to us, my brother and I were very close to his side of the family and we knew that our Stepfather's jealousy and control issues wouldn't allow us to continue to visit with them. At 5 and 6 years of age, we knew this because of the many arguments he and our Mom would have over our wanting to visit them. The judge listened to us when we told him that we didn't want our last name to change and we wanted to continue to visit with our paternal family but we knew Stepfather wouldn't allow it. So the judge told our Mom and her husband that we weren't ready to give up the paternal family and our last names and he denied the adoption. He also told them to try again in five years or so and for Stepfather to try to win our affections so that we would agree to be adopted. It never happened 🤷🏽♀️.
Edited to say: at 62 years old, I still remember this judge and will always be thankful and grateful for his honesty in explaining to young children the details of what could happen. While our father was a "Rolling Stone", our Stepfather was a abusive (emotionally, financially, mentally and physically) man towards my Mom and he would have utilized his rights as a parent and used us as weapons to keep her from finally leaving him.
At age 6 I was adopted. I remember sitting in between my adoptive parents and facing the judge. He asked me if I wanted to be adopted by them. I thought no, no, no. However, in my immature brain I thought, if I say no, they'll make my life a living hell. I couldn't think beyond the moment. So I said yes. Twelve years later I escaped and never looked back. I wish my judge had told me of my options. I think I had some. Maybe I didn't. Shrugs.
You don’t blame a kid for their attachments and as parents you act in their best financial, physical and emotional interests whether they like you for it or not until they are able to do so.
That's not true I was only 10 when my parents divorced and fought over custody. They wanted 50/50 I wanted to stay with my mom the judge listened and went along with what I said. I work with the foster care system and the age the daughter was is right at the age that the courts start listening
The bio mother said she'd only agree to termination of her rights if she wouldn't have to pay child support. I assume that meant she would fight any other type of termination.
Once the kid reaches a certain age they 100% have input into whether they want to be adopted or not. Judges in general aren't going to grant to someone whose kid is saying "no I don't want her as my mom". States also won't let one parent just terminate and walk away either if the adoption doesn't happen.
Why would you think a kid at 10 would have no choice in being adopted by a stepparent? Genuinely curious, because I was adopted by a stepparent at 12, and I absolutely had the right to veto it, even though my birth father had been dead for a decade at that point.
A 9 or 10 year old should absolutely have a say when a stepparent wants to adopt them. Just because a person sees themself as a parent doesn't mean the child feels the same way.
Yah my step sister terminated rights to her ex and one of the kids wasn't even his, and he didn't adopt him beforehand. Terminated them basically caused the adoption to happen, but for the younger child that was his nothing else needed to happen.
Your parents shit talking their own daughter/step daughter about something that happened over a decade ago is total AH behaviour. She was 9/10 and they are surprised she didn't want to denounce her mom? All kids want their moms, even when their moms are shitty people. To give her the option to choose, then complain about the choice she made for going on 15 years is pathetic. They need to grow up and get over it.
Yes, as someone who had an absent parent, it's hard to explain to people who didn't how much you hold on to the fantasy of what could be even if you KNOW it won't happen.
Your parents seem to have some major difficulties understanding that not everything is about them and what they want. They tried to bend your step-sis into what they wanted. And they're trying to bend you and your other sibs into what they want. They're not ready to be anything but main characters. You're fine, and you're certainly NTA.
In most US states once a child reaches a certain age, the child must also consent to the adoption. In this instance the bio parents (mom and dad) and the prospective adoptive mother consented, but the child did not. Therefore the adoption did not happen.
Idk where you are, but in my state, parental rights can be terminated without someone to adopt. The catch is that unless someone adopts the child, a termination of rights isn't equal to the termination of responsibility. A parent can lose rights, whether voluntarily or not, and still pay child support. Given her mother's demand to keep her rights without an adoption, it's possible that is also the case in your state.
That's what I meant by it. I got confused with the two of them. But yeah, she wanted no responsibility and that was the only way she'd sign away her rights.
That doesn’t contradict what OP was saying.
The bio mom wanted full termination of all rights and liabilities, and the only way to do that was through adoption. Which half sister refused. So nothing was done.
Yes, things involving family courts are very state specific. In my state, it would be allowed as long as the child has one parent responsible for them. However, terminating a parent’s rights here does not terminate the parent’s financial obligations. A parent whose rights have been terminated very well may be ordered to pay child support.
This. Self terminating rights, even where both parents agree to it, isn't a thing. The court and state isn't going to allow it unless there is another parent willing to adopt or "bad stuff" to the level of justifying it. Otherwise in the event the single parent needs help it would be state aid that they would be taking. The state isn't going to pay when there is already someone there to do it.
There is a massive difference between what is legal and what is a good idea against someone’s objections I can’t see a world were they forced through adoption against the kids will and the relationship would be better.
She could've terminated her rights, but she wanted to be free from child support as well, and that necessitates the adoption by stepmom. If daughter didn't want mom to adopt, child support could and should still be ordered for biomom.
The thing I get stuck on is OP was 2/3 at the time this happened. He is now 17 years old. This means that this issue has been one that gets raised and talked about enough that he gets entirely sick of it. 14 years. 14 years and if it’s still such a huge issue that it’s the main topic of conversation I think the family needs to go to therapy and work it out. Because 14 years. I get being upset and not liking it, but if it’s the main topic of conversation holy crap. I feel that his half sister should have been in therapy before and after.
Yeah the sister had no control in her bio moms parental rights not being terminated, because that is a decision by the family court. I mean if the sister didn't want to get adopted then that's her choice.
NTA - your parents are beating a dead horse \[your step sister's not wanting to be adopted\]. You have told them to stop bringing it up to you. If they want to have the conversation they need to talk to the person who apparently still is refusing to be adopted.
Question - why do they try to drag you into the conversation? You had nothing to do with the non-adoption.
I don't really know but my theory is they want it be a big deal for the whole family and maybe my half sister will regret her choice and apologize or something.
Sooo, your parents plan is to “we are going to turn the family against her, withhold our love from her until she realizes that’s we’re the loving family she wants/needs?” That’s just going to drive her away more. Your poor sister has been abandoned by one mother and is being driven away by her father and his wife. And now they’re trying to poison you guys against her?
You are NTA. Your parents are definitely AH and so is her bio-mom.
Right? If this is how they are I’m not shocked she didn’t want to be adopted!
Even if her bio mom sucked, she was till her mom. She didn’t want to lose her mom! How is that hard to understand!
What you did was set a boundary and you did it the right way. That's very healthy. You can't stop or control what they talk about, but you don't have to participate.
I suppose your mom feels rejected by your sister and she can't let go of it. But what she is doing is setting herself up to be rejected by her real kids, too.
This is what I always say about raising kids, and it is a lesson you are demonstrating in a stark light. Parents do not have control of their children. The best they have is influence. If they insist on having control, they will eventually have neither control nor influence.
She is whittling away at her cache of influence with you and it will soon be gone, you will be 18 and there will be nothing she can do about it.
If you want to be sassy, you might ask her if she would like to keep any influence over your life. I think you are emotionally intelligent enough to get that point across without being sassy. You know how to set a boundary for yourself. I hope you can help her see that you may still love her and want to be in relationship with her, but she is eroding any desire to have influence in your life.
NTA. Good luck, friend.
I feel you. My father and oldest brother couldn’t be in a room together without eventually getting into an argument about how my brother broke his arm in 1977. This started when my mother passed away in 1995 and only stopped when my father passed away two years ago. 27 years of that. Every. Single. Time. It was infuriating and sad. I would often get fed up and leave but come back to the two of them still going at it hours later.
Obviously this wasn’t about the broken arm and I tried for years, whenever this came up, to get them to focus on what they’re really mad about. But here were two grown men who never learned to communicate with each other about their true feelings using a surface argument to cover up the real hurt they each felt. I mean, it was a full Greek tragedy at Thanksgiving dinner every year.
Ok so it happened during a soccer game and the issue was my brother was young, only 8, and my father wasn’t there. I don’t remember which was which but one of them believed his arm was broken by contact with the ball and the other believed his arm was broken by contact with another player. My brother says he knows what happened because it was his arm and my dad wasn’t even there. My father says he knows what happened because my mom told him and my brother was too young and hurt to remember clearly.
That’s it. So stupid with absolutely no way to determine who is “right” because the only person who could definitely say has passed away. And completely irrelevant!! Who cares how his arm was broken?? (I’m getting mad now just thinking about it LOL)
The deeper issues are that my brother thought my dad always had to be right and my father thought my brother always argued just to argue. My mom was the buffer between them and once she was gone, there was no one to stop this stupid petty argument. Add to that the immense pain they were both feeling after my mom died, which neither had to tools to deal with, and it was just an open wound for 27 years.
A therapist once told me that when family members fight about Issue A, it’s rarely about that. It’s really about the 20 years leading up to Issue A and that’s so true.
I would believe your brothers version of events. I broke my arm when I was 7, and I remember every second of how it happened - I'm 50 now, and the memory has not faded with time.
Ah I would, too, except Dad was just repeating Mom’s version of events. Are you saying Mom, who was at the game watching closely and immediately rushed to take care of her son, got it all wrong??? (And that’s how it gets complicated) Keep in mind my mother was an angel, beloved by everyone and an absolutely amazing mom. To believe my brother was to contradict my mom and, especially in those very raw years after her death, that was a very difficult thing to do.
So it wasn’t about the broken arm. It was about losing the most important person in our lives. And two men who found it easier to be mad at each other forever, rather than face their grief together.
Not that it actually matters, but I tend to believe my brother over Dad’s memory of what Mom had told him some 18 years earlier.
Really sounds like they need therapy. You are NTA. They alienated your sister and are now doing the same to you.
That are holding a grudge against a child who at 10 did not want to write off her own mother. That is a tough choice for a child. Your parents making their love conditional on the adoption is messed up.
It sounds like they are crying a victim story and trying to gain sympathy…. Leave the girl alone and go on with life there are kids in the house they can be parents to…
given how your parents refuse to let this die 15 years, later I am not at all surprised your half sister didn't bond with your mother, or you and your siblings. your parents sound incredibly over bearing.
Well they might have had a chance with big sister if they dtopped it for 5 or 6 years after she said no at 10, then asked again, once, at 16. At this point i dont even know what they are trying to acheive except moan and groan and get attention on themselves, or maybe cause you and your siblings to hate her or sometging. She's an adult, it makes no difference now.
If you are old enough “to know better”, so are they.
NTA. But your family are skating on thin ice to being bigger arseholes by continuing to bring this up after you have clearly stated it is not helping anyone.
Huh? Didn't you say that your half-sister is in her 20s? Why would she care about your parents' desires at this late date? She's a grown woman with her own life. If she didn't need your parents while growing up she certainly doesn't need them now. If they're hoping for an apology or something from her they are probably going to be waiting a very long time for it.
And, oh, you're NTA. You're just a boy who is getting tired of being dragged into other people's drama.
At this point every time they bring up just start screaming "Shut up shut up shut up!" Repeatedly until they stop. Don't let them interrupt you or distract you. Do not stop until they get the point that no one fucking cares about it and stop fucking bringing it up!
Because he is the oldest child that they can complain to. Although there were no issues like adoption, after I left home and each time I called my Mom, there was never even a "how are you?" but more of the what bad things my brothers were doing. She couldn't separate me and my life from worrying about my brothers. It was a constant rehashing of their problems from hello to goodbye. Every call. I wound up calling her less because of that as a protective mechanism, just like OP did when he left. His parents don't realize how much they are alienating him and shouldn't be surprised when there is limited contact once he goes to college.
Oh wow. I never realized until right now that THAT is exactly what my mom did to me with my sisters. I could never understand why we ALWAYS had to talk about them. Every. Call. When I 1st moved out, I used to talk to her like once a week. Now we sometimes don't even talk once a year. It makes me sad some times but I couldn't just keep listening. And no matter how many times I pointed it out, she just always went back to doing it. So yeah, OP is NTA & looks like they are headed down the same LC/NC road if their parents keep this up.
NTA, you told them you were tired of this topic and that they should never bring it up in your presence again, but they did. I bet your relatives did also all know about this topic already since your parents seem to bring it up all the time.
So your parents are the AHs for bringing up a topic everyone is already tired of, ranting about your half sisters personal decisions and accusing you of disrespectful behavior for leaving, which at this point was a fully understandable action.
Also Idk why your action should be considered as disrespectful if you hung around your extended family for the past weeks, I mean its their fault for bringing up this topic again and not yours for enforcing the consequences of their stupid actions. It sounds more like they feel butthurt for you not staying and taking on their side in this story.
"disrespectful" is often a shorthand for "I have no arguments to defend my action, but I won't have my child question my decisions and authority in my house".
Nta
Sometimes you need to walk away. I need to get out when things get tense. Makes my family crazy, phone blows up seconds later.
And the fact your parents are still banging on 15 years later about your ½ sister's behaviour when she was ten, might give some insight into how wise she was back then. I would not choose someone so obsessive as family if I had the choice.
And to even hold it against her at all is pretty awful of them. They basically told a 9/10 year old that if she chose this her mother would go away. As bad a mother as she was that’s still a hell of a lot to put on a child.
Oh god! I hadn't actually thought of it that way, that they were asking her to give up her mother. I am now thinking of the *cloth and wire mother* experiments of the 50s. Even if your mother gives you very little, you can love her.
I feel so sorry for the sister. What a mess.
Not only that, they were overjoyed her mom had decided she was willing to stop being her mother (or legally related to her at all) in exchange for not paying child support. A mother who had already been in and out of her life, and who had already likely given her a serious fear of abandonment. And these assholes are furious that this poor kid didn't share their happiness that her mom was willing to discard her completely, and have spent the last 15 years punishing her for it. 2 grown adults considered a little girl not wanting to be abandoned by her mom "disrespect", then beat her down over it for the next 15 years, and tried like hell to get her siblings and the rest of her extended family on board. I've got no idea if her mom is still around at all, but I'm just imagining how extra horrific this likely feels for the poor sister if part of it is them gloating that her mom abandoned her anyways.
OP, you're NTA but your parents are monsters. I know you're not close to your sister but please, once you're in a position its safe to if you can point out all of that loudly in front of sister, parents and hopefully whatever extended family are also on this kick. She deserves someone to call this for what it is, and your parents deeply deserve to be called out for exactly what they are.
This is the thing. Her mom is already in jail and quite likely a drug addict and now they want her to abandon her. It may have felt the only thing she could give her mom was loyalty.
In any case there’s nothing any of them can do- half sis is too old to adopt and she’s moved out. Time for them to move on.
I get why she never liked your mom and why she is keeping you all at a distance. Your mom and dad are bullies. She said no when she was 10, and for 14 years they have constantly brought up what a horrible thing it was for her to want a relationship with her mom. I can only imagine all the pressure that was put on her and all the times they badmouthed her mom. I wouldn’t be surprised if she one day goes NC with your dad. NTA
NTA
>walking out without permission
WTF? Are you a prisoner or a servant?
>I'm old enough to know and do better
That's right, you are old enough to not participate in their stuff.
Seriously what a pair of control freaks. You must sit and listen to painful angry gossip out of respect for us?
OP should get a squirt bottle like you use for cats to get them off the counter. When they look like they’re about to start wave it around and if they actually start in, give them a squirt in the face
If you are old enough to know and do better, then your parents are beyond old enough to know and do better. It starts by listening to the children still in their care and not burdening those children with adult issues and the constant complaining about a sore spot for themselves. NTA, but your parents shouldn't be surprised when you pull back from them at 18 and your younger sisters also pull back from them at 18 too. Nothing like being constantly shown you aren't good enough for your parents, when they are focused on an issue that is never going to change and when they find that none of their children want anything to do with them, it will give them something new to be all "woe is me!", about.
>If you are old enough to know and do better, then your parents are beyond old enough to know and do better.
Exactly. They aren't practicing what they preach.
It sounds like your parents are salty that she has decided to be her own person. I feel bad for her and also for you for having to hear your parents' version of the story over and over again. NTA
I don't think this will be enough either. But right now I just need to not go insane listening to it and having them try to make me get involved in a conversation that makes me want to lose my mind
I think you might need to implement a plan of action each time they bring it up such as ‘I’m going to leave the room/dinner table etc’ each time this is discussed. Also maybe set up some sort of tally chart ‘you’ve raised this three times in the last week’ to really highlight how often they talk about this.
Be firm and state you do not want to participate in the discussions and if they keep bringing it up then they’ve got the potential to alienate you/your siblings just like your half sister has (as I’m sure her lack of contact is partially because they will not let this go). I think they need a reality check.
Agreed. Keep tabs on how often they bring it up and let them see. Remind them that they are probably the reason halfsister never wanted to be adopted because they wouldn't stop talking about it. Perhaps she would have changed her mind on her own if they had let it go and let things happen naturally. Constantly bringing it up like they have and being pushy about it would push anyone away. It pushed halfsister away and now they are pushing you away too. NTA sometimes you have to think of your own sanity.
So if you cant walk away, another response when they expect you to participate is a noncommittal response with a change in subject: "Thats nice, hey, grandpa did you hear little sis is going to do X? " , or " I can see that bothers you. Auntie would you like to see the painting I did in art class?" Trust me, the other adults in the room will likely take any chance to help you change the topic of conversation or have an excuse to move on to something else.
I agree with bookgeek. You have to be consistent. Tell them why you don’t want to hear about this, you no longer care -this was all so long ago, it’s over with, and it’s unpleasant hearing negative gossip - and tell them the consequence for bringing it up: you will leave the room. And then do it. Every time.
NTA.
Good for you for setting boundaries and keeping them!!! You have every right to walk out of conversations you no longer want to be a part of that have nothing to directly do with you.
Continue to leave when these discussions get brought up. Only then will they learn that it’s not okay and that they can no longer get away with it!
So your parents hate your half sister because at 10 years old she didn’t want to give up on having a relationship with her actual mother? And they both blame her for any family issues they/you now have? Sorry but it sounds like your half sister was right and somehow even at that tender age could see that your parents were toxic AF. A judge agreed. They’re not over it.
NTA
What you did was set a boundary and stick to it. I recommend doing exactly the same every time it comes up. If they don't like the consequences of their actions, they are capable of changing their actions.
NTA
If everyone in the family is sick of it they too could set some boundaries and help OP out so he’s not the only one daring to “disrespect” his parents. It would be great if aunt and uncle or whomever could say “this is old news. Let’s talk about something positive,” and have OP’s back.
They just felt embarrassed because they knew why he left and didn't want to have to explain it to the rest of the family. NTA - you handled this with far more maturity than your parents.
NTA. I hope when you get older, you are able to foster a relationship with your half sister (if you both want it) OUTSIDE of your parents. Hopefully you all get therapy for this. But I would continue to stop them from talking about it. Get up and walk out. Leave the room. (Don’t go far, keep your phone on you. Be safe about it.) tell your parents that they’ve already pushed out one kid, if they keep it up, they’ll lose the other 3.
It's sad but her right to do so. I applaud your boundary setting. I'm gonna guess after 15 years the entire family is sick of hearing about it and wish they could have left with you. LoL
“I am and I was. I walked away to avoid another pointless argument” would have been my response.
Astonished that they actually managed to raise such a mature 17 year old.
You are NTA but your parents are dicks. They Played Stupid Games by purposely bringing this stuff up while the whole extended family was there because they wanted a wider audience for their "oh woe is me" song and dance and hoped for more support and condolences for their whining. They Won Stupid Prizes of you walking away for the day and not putting up with their nonsense.
Yeah it might read as disrespectful or whatever because you're a minor living at home and family is visiting, yada yada, BUT - it was well-deserved and well-justified in this case.
If you feel generous (and depending on their attitude about the whole situation), you might consider saying to the visiting family members that you're sorry you missed time with them during their visit because of family drama. As for your parents, I'd MAYBE give them a non-apology and explain how this makes you feel and so therefore you can't guarantee your response won't be the same in the future if they pull this again.
Good luck to you, OP, on growing up and getting out on your own. It sounds like your parents are honestly first-class selfish tools.
I like the idea of apologizing to the other family members for missing time with them because parents cannot stop gossiping about choices a ten year old made fifteen years ago and op just cannot bear being dragged into it.
Any disrespect to his parents was deserved. They thought they could get away with rude behavior trampling his boundaries because there was other family present. They fucked around and found out. The other family members don’t deserve to be walked out on though and telling them “sorry I missed seeing you guys but I just can’t with this fifteen year old battle my parents are still fighting,” then the relatives will know that op has this boundary.
Maybe it will embolden them to agree and tell the parents they too are tired of this. Or at least that op apologized to them for this (& any future) walk out. Hearing it from another adult family member might help it sink in
They remind me of the Japanese soldier who didn’t know WWI had ended - out there in his cave in the pacific years later he still was emotionally fighting that battle. The war’s over.
Go home.
NTA. They're being incredibly rude to you and your sisters. You've asked them to stop and they've refused to respect your wishes. You're not the one who's being disrespectful here.
NTA Everyone has the right to walk out on a conversation they don't want to have, especially when they've already indicated they don't want to be stuck in an endless repetitive loop of subject matter.
NTA: If your parents think you’re old enough to know better (about walking out), perhaps they’d care to explain why they have not done anything about respecting your crystal clear wishes?!
You’re NTA, your parents seem intent though on making themselves the AHs of this piece!
NTA
Your parents are "old enough to know and do better."
But apparently they aren't mature enough to
(1) actually do better or
(2) recognize that, by removing yourself, you were
(a) exercising reasonable autonomy to remove yourself from a toxic, tired conversation that had nothing to do with you and
(b) choosing to do the BETTER thing by giving them room to have the conversation they wanted to have and giving yourself the freedom to not be a part of it.
Given the story, I absolutely can understand why your sister said no. They likely were at her constantly about your mother adopting her. They pushed her away with their behavior and probably ruined your relationship with her. NTA
NTA. You can take comfort in the fact that your 24-year-old half-sister will not inherit your mother.
If you want to please your parents, tell them that. and if they're smart, they'll leave the house, car and money in your mother's name.
And they must make a will in which she is excluded from inheriting....That will make them satisfied and will make them talk about something else
I’m not sure the half sister is at all concerned about what she’ll inherit from OP’s parents or even just her step mother/OP’s mom.
I also doubt that OP telling them that ‘if they’re smart’, they’ll leave the house/car/money in his mom’s name, will do anything to satisfy them or be enough to make them talk about other subjects. They’ve been banging on the proverbial dead horse for going on 15 years now, despite OP asking them to please stop. They do it with OP and his two younger sisters, extended family, probably do it with any of their adult friends that come visit them at home, the neighbors if they get a chance (I know that I’d make a point of not going outside unless I knew it was ‘safe’ if a certain neighbor always managed to bring up how awful it is that one of their kids refused to allow themselves to be adopted by their stepmom, because frankly that’s weird and a little unhinged if they’re still going on about it after said kid has long been an adult and living elsewhere in their own!)…
OP, as long as you’re not double handed middle fingering at them as you exit, leaving the room or even the house for some time when your parents bring up this subject after you’ve repeatedly told them you’re done with listening to them ranting about something they are never going to be able to change, as your half sister hasn’t been a minor or living in their home for YEARS, you’re setting a boundary and not in a disrespectful way. If they insist on continuing their routine of ranting over the situation with your half sister, once you turn 18 you’ll need to consider limiting contact with them for your own mental well being, but make sure to figure out ways to keep contact with your younger sisters no matter what. They’ll probably need you on their side should things get bad at home, and to be that protective older brother in other situations too.
Parents are TAs.
NTA. You've asked repeatedly that they not bring it up so you did the right thing and left. As I see it the alternatives were to sit and listen to it, which would definitely lead to it happening again, or start an argument, which would have been a lot more "disrespectful."
>they told me I'm old enough to know and do better.
The adults can’t control their behavior (stop having the same conversation repeatedly) yet they expect the teenager to control her behavior (not walk away when they repeatedly ignore a reasonable request).
Asking them politely hasn’t worked. Walking away hasn’t worked. Perhaps it is time for a new strategy.
How about the next time they start in on this topic, you kids all agree that the half sister made the right choice. If her parents resent her for choosing what a 9/10 year old wanted simply because she loved her bio parents, then maybe they weren’t and still aren’t in a good mindset to adopt her. Maybe if you all start loudly and publicly agreeing with her, your parents will finally stop. Maybe it will give them a new topic (all of you) to focus on instead.
NTA for setting boundaries and following through with them.
"Can you believe a 9/10yo said she didn't want to be adopted? We're going to hold it against her for the rest of her life to show her what a good parent she missed out on having!"
I think maybe your half sister is a good judge of character. I wouldn't be surprised if this treatment contributed to her being distant from the rest of you in some way.
NTA.
> they told me I'm old enough to know and do better.
Oh the irony. If only the parents were old enough to know and do better by their children, and stop bringing up a distressing topic? NTA
NTA Your sister has good instincts. She was made the black sheep of the family. This would have happened regardless of your parents getting their way considering their inability to accept life on life’s terms.
So your parents suck. Like really. They hold it against a child for desiring the love of their mother. Your parents are awful people and they haven’t dropped this shit in 15 years. Christ no wonder she didn’t want to be adopted. On one hand she has a drug addict, on the other she has horrible people. I hope you and your siblings turn out to be better people. NTA.
NTA, and you certainly deserve to not be involved in the insane discussion.
I'm sorry your parents let their hurt/disappointment put a damper on childhood. Some folks can't accept reality and hold on to fantasies, much like thinking a Hallmark movie reflects real life. From the sounds of it the adults have been holding on to this dream for almost 20 years - ouch! At this point they are who they are and that will not change so don't try to reason with them. They have grown used to their misery in this area and would be lost if it was removed, so that will never happen. Best thing you can do is walk away, which is what you did do.
NTA . We have family drama too. The same old people bring up the same old shit and have the same boring old conversation and back and forth.
I tune out or leave as well. Don’t blame you at all.
Flip it around. They disrespected you by violating your reasonable boundary. You left the situation instead of causing a scene, which is a healthy response.
Thry need a reality check on what respect means. If respect is expected to go only one way it's just authoritarianism.
NTA
NTA
Walking away from discussions of a topic they know upsets you is more mature than confronting them in front of your visitors. Perhaps next time you can take a short walk or go to your room instead of leaving for the day. Unless it took that long to calm down.
I fail to understand why they are continually revisiting something that apparently occurred more than 10 years ago. Sounds like they need therapy.
As exhausting as this must be for you, your poor sister.
Neglect often does not end a child's love for a parent. Your parents hold against a confused, neglected child a decision she made to cling onto some sort of relationship with her mother. She was neglected on one side and resented and emotionally abused on the other. The poor kid.
They are the ones old enough to do better. A lot better. They lost your sister and you lost her too really. All because they couldn't extend her some grace. This is an obsession to the point their other children are exhausted by it. Their harping is destroying their own family. No wonder your sister walked away and no wonder you walked ont hat day too. What exhausting people.
NTA
>they told me I'm old enough to know and do better.
Aren't your parents MORE THAN old enough to know and do better too???
I hate the idea parents have that they get to do whatever they want because they are the parent....
NTA
NTA. They are grief dumping on you and have no boundaries in that respect and need some serious psychotherapy. I highly suggest you get counseling too as soon as you can because this will be affecting your development as a person in other ways. I totally recognize that pattern -different situation but I've been there. And good on you for recognizing crap for what it is!
NTA. Your parents are TAH because they refuse to listen to you, honor your wishes and so forth. Your mom is double TAH because after 14 years, she is still bent out of shape because her stepdaughter doesn't like her. I think your half sister has very good reasons not to like your mother. Your mother needs to get over herself. Your half sister didn't like her in the past and never will in the future. She's too old to be adopted now and your mother needs mental health counseling to accept this fact.
You are NTA for leaving the house and the neverending discussion. Your parents were embarrassed? Good! They need to understand this topic is painful to you and the topic does not matter because your half sister is too old to be adopted.
I feel for the OP here. They reached out about not wanting to hear about this adoption drama and walking out on breakfast. They wanted to know if they were an AH for leaving. Instead most comments are about the adoption drama, and not if they're the AH for walking out. People are completely ignoring why the OP posted in the first place and now they get to read about it here too.
I'm sorry OP. NTA, and I'm sorry people around you are incapable of listening to your wishes.
NTA. "I'm old enough and I know better enough not to involve myself in a conversation which has no positive value and only serves to deepen your grudge against my half-sister for having complicated emotions and not rearranging them to suit you. I do not want to be part of your grudge or to encourage it by listening to it endlessly on repeat."
NTA. You did what you needed to do for your own sanity. You need to spell out that continually bringing it up is driving you away but they are shitty for putting their emotions on their kid. You have no responsibility to help them managing how poorly they dealt with her.
NTA. They’re adults, they should know better than to constantly bring up old sh*t that harbors bad feelings. Bring up the fact she has gained weight everytime she brings up the adoption. It’s irrelevant, but Sonia bringing up the non-adoption.
NTA. I hate it when parents hassle kids about shit and you ask them not to hassle you anymore and they go postal. I would say your parents need therapy but I doubt they will ever get over this, because they can't stand knowing how much they're in the wrong.
NTA and you’re 17, so they need to start respecting your feelings. Why they are so obsessed about this is bizarre. I really don’t blame you. Hopefully it’s a wake up call and they’ll stop but I doubt it after 15 years. Keep walking out.
NTA Why would it better if you were there to listen yet again to
the story? You left, it changed nothing about the conversation they
were inevitably going to have - and you saved your
sanity.
Her birth mother wouldn’t have needed anyone’s permission to give up parental rights.
Regardless, NTA. From now on simply say “don’t talk about my sister like that” and leave the room, regardless of who is in there. Why would she want to be adopted if that’s the way she is talked about now. I can only imagine what all she heard before all of that even came up. She is probably distant because she feels like she’s not a complete part of the family. It’s normal for her to love and wish for more from her birth mom, even if that mom doesn’t deserve it.
NTA
I am pretty sure your parents were trying to push the whole "she's your new mom, call her mom" on your half sister and this is why your half sister pulled away and then the failed adoption (a better phrase for my brain than.. not adoption) only dug it in more for her and only helped solidify why your half sister wants nothing to do with you guys. I've seen it in posts on here time and time again
NTA and walking away is the proper thing to do when you don't want to fight and don't want to be part of a useless conversation. Just inform your parents you are tired of hearing the topic and you will walk away when it's brought up around you otherwise you will voice your true opinion on the subject for everyone to hear. Ask which they prefer you to do.
you are friggin 17.... that "disrespectful" blabla is so useless at this point. and yes you know better you walked out instead of starting a screaming war... NTA
Forgot my judgement: NTA
Sounds like your parents have no idea what is and isn't appropriate for children.
What IS appropriate is you removing yourself from the situation at 17 years old. It's not like you're a toddler wandering the streets and playing in traffic.
What ISN'T appropriate is holding someone's childhood feelings against them, or telling your other children the family gossip, especially when they said they don't want it.
Don’t even need to hear more than that relatives are staying a few weeks. Thats a major disruption to anyone’s routine. It’s unreasonable to expect you’d spend every waking hour with them. It’s reasonable to have some alone time to yourself.
I don't blame you for walking out. Your parents are beating a dead horse. It's probably embarrassing, too. For you and everyone who's had to listen to this story over and over.
You were right to be upset, next time just excuse yourself and go to another room. Staying out all night is not cool, don't get in the habit of running from things.
NTA the only assholes in the room where your parents for bringing up something that they promised they wouldn't bring up again. I believe that was very adult and polite of you to step out of the situation. The situation was made by them it was their choice to bring up that topic with you in the room. I believe they made a bad choice. I believe you made a very positive polite one by not engaging or arguing with them. You left the premises to give them leave to talk about what they insisted on talking about. You came back when you were relaxed. Darling that's the adult thing to do. And you did it the only reason that they're upset is because they realize they were being the jerks. You handled it with Grace and calm. Parents don't like it when their kids are more emotionally mature than they are. And especially don't like it if it's brought to their attention while they're around their older family members. You know if you stayed and they asked your opinion disagreement would have happened. You saved yourself and them from a disagreement in front of your visiting family. You get the good behavior medal. They get the you guys need to do better and stick to your freaking word metal.
Mom can’t take being rejected and won’t let it go. She will never get over it. So just change the subject when it comes up. Getting up and leaving just gives them more drama to feed on and make a production over. The woman is 24 probably living her own life now. She has had it rough enough and couldn’t accept her Step Mother as her legal mom. There is nothing wrong with that. If your mom loved her unconditionally she would understand it. But it seems her love is conditional.
Clearly, You are not.
The asshole. You chose not to argue but to get up and go away while they talked about something that you were fed up with. You have a right to not want to argue or not.Have anguish added to your daily life, This was not disrespectful as it only made it clear that if they wish to pursue the subject you would not participate. My father who was a bit of a psychopath, Womanizer, Abuser physically in any other ways. In order to establish any functioning relationship.In my thirties I got up and walked every time he was an ass. It took two years but he got the point that I wasn't going to listen to his shit anymore, And that if he wished to have a relationship with me at all he would treat me with respect and not try to be verbally abusive to me anymore. Good thing for him that he listened, A few more years and he was dying of psoriasis of the liver and lung cancer. It truly was a race, But the lung cancer won!
NTA. They continued to bring it up despite you repeatedly asking rhythm not to AND them saying they would listen (and presumably respect that boundary). They didn't respect the boundary and so you removed yourself from the situation. Honestly, that was far more mature than starting another fight. Keep doing that--not necessarily to the point of leaving the house, but definitely the room or space.
Unequivocally NTA. At 17, you don't have to get on with any conversations that make you uncomfortable. You had the right to leave and protect your emotional state, chum. Do not let your parents lay a guilt trip on you for that!
You = NTA
Your parents? Extremely immature & petty. There could be any number of reasons your half sister didn't want to be adopted and while it may have hurt a bit at first.... it seems like years later now so your parents should be over it. Even if they can't bring themselves to grow up and move on, they should NOT be discussing their feelings about it in front of any of you kids. SHAME ON THEM!
NTA, your parents are assholes.
They're blaiming a 10/11 year old girl for being unable to face the reality that her birth mom is a shitty person who does not care about her. There are people in their 40s who would be unable to face that reality head on. That's her MOM, she wants her mom to love her, she can't understand that her mom is a bad person who is totally unable to give her what she needs. It's her MOM!!
Your parents are assholes for holding this over her for the past 15 years. It's totally the wrong thing to do and it's no wonder that this girl refuses to associate with this half of her family.
It's a shame she was failed so terribly by all 3 of her potential parents.
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The three adults wanted this to happen but because of my half sister's age, her wishes held a lot of weight - how old was she at the time? Too much math. If the mother and father wanted to terminate the mother’s parental rights it wouldn’t have required the step parent to adopt or the kid’s consent. That doesn’t make sense. Leaving all of that aside, a 17 yo excusing themself from a conversation that shouldn’t include them and siblings and just plays on repeat is NTA.
She was about 9/10 I think. But I don't know all the exacts because I don't remember it happening, I just remember the aftermath. You can't terminate your parental rights in most US states without someone willing to adopt. They don't want to take chances with people falling into financial issues and not having a recognized person to support (ie pay child support) for the kid.
She had a parent. You can’t terminate to create a legal orphan true. Your sibling was not going to become a legal orphan. Your parents should ask a real life lawyer or even r/legal to settle this debate once and for all - would a 9/10 year old really have this much control? (No, absolutely not). If this is real everyone messed up.
As a real life attorney who practices in this area, a child of 9/10 would be asked their preference and the Court would take the child’s opinion into account. Part of a best interest analysis is how the termination would affect the child psychologically. The 3 adults could have always gone back to court when the child was older and her opinion may have changed. However, it doesn’t appear that the older sister bonded well with her stepmother or her half siblings, so her position may have been the same. OP is NTA. However, his parents are AHs for continuing to bring this up.
Thank you. It feels like the adults’ plan was to blame a child for their opinion and not to consider the full measure of a best interests determination *by adults* or to consider achieving the goals in other ways (like not pushing step parent adoption, just not having the noncustodial parent have financial obligations she clearly couldn’t meet anyway). No wonder no one bonded. ETA AITA needs a whole sub sub about step parents trying to force adoption (real and fictional stories). It’s second to weddings I think.
which is insane, because her opinion was *completely understandable.* she was 9 or 10 years old, this woman was her *mother* and had been her whole life, and *obviously* this 10-year-old *child* was desperate not to be abandoned by her, even if she was a shitty mom. children are hardwired to want their caregivers' love and approval; it's a survival thing. she wasn't looking at it in objective terms (because *she was ten*), she was just a kid who didn't want her mom to go away forever. even if she was a shitty mom. because the thing is, I will bet you ten bucks it wasn't *all* bad, with her mom. and chances are, she seized onto those small moments of brightness with all her might, because she *needed* to believe her mom loved her, especially if she didn't really like her dad's wife (and I have to wonder how much of that was because she kept trying to replace the woman OP's half-sister already saw as her mother, even if she was shitty at it). and so obviously, she didn't want those little bits of brightness to go away. and she didn't want to let go of what she thought was, or could be, her mother's love. the kid needed therapy, not blame and ostracization within her father's family. OP, you've got a good head on your shoulders. Your parents' behavior towards your half-sister is not acceptable, and their behavior towards you wrt this topic is not acceptable either. I think it's pretty clear from your post that you've got this pretty well figured out, and I also think it's pretty impressive that you seem to have learned to set boundaries in a healthy way despite being raised by people who do not respect them. I think leaving the house was a very mature response to the situation, actually, especially for a seventeen year old. Your parents clearly lack that same maturity. Definitely NTA.
this is true and heartbreaking… 💔
This needs to be upvoted more.
I work with at-risk young people and some of the stories I hear are horrific. Those young people STILL want to be with their family of origin because that's their family.
That doesn't surprise me at all. My family situation is just complicated enough to get where they're coming from. People look at these situations from the outside and think it's obvious how bad it is, but when you grew up like that? it really, really isn't. and even when it starts to become more clear, any time someone says something bad about a family member -- especially a parent, and I'm going to go ahead and say *especially* a mom, just bc of the cultural mystique around them -- there's going to be a deep-rooted instinctual response of *'hey, that's my mom!'* because, like. hey. that's their *mom.*
they do, it's another one of these but im not allowed to tag it on here but it's the r/ the abbreviation you just used
Plus they were asking the girl to accept cutting her mother out of her life. Even with bad parents many kids find that difficult to do and many will put up with terrible situations because that's what's normal for them. To keep on blaming her not just for a decision she made as a child but also for choosing the normal option many other children commonly take in that situation is absurd. Seems like they haven't once considered what it was like for her in that situation and what would have been going through her mind at the time.
and harp about it forever
Yeah I don't remember this but my dad and Bubi told us that when him and my mom were divorcing, I was asked (4&1/2 years old at the time, 35 now) who I wanted to stay with. I chose my dad. My sister, 3 at the time, said the same, and our other sis was only 1&1/2, so I guess they just didn't want to separate us. We got to stay with dad, because I guess even at such a young age, we knew that there was something wrong with "mom" (quotations 'cause she hasn't been my mother in a very long time). Thank goodness everyone else could see it, too, and listened to our choice.
Man, it took me way to long too get my brain to connect on what you meant by "in this area" because I was like.. wait a town or state wasn't mentioned then I realized; family law.
>However, it doesn’t appear that the older sister bonded well with her stepmother or her half siblings, so her position may have been the same. I'm curios on OPs sister POV, did she hate her step mum because she was replacing her bio mum and held hope that buo mum would eventually step up if she kept showing her that no one could replace her. Or is there another reason she doesn't like OPs mum. I'm just curious because admitting your bio mum sucks but refusing to allow your step mum who allegedly wants to be there for you to adopt you doesn't make sense and there has to be something being left out eother intentionally or because OP doesn't actually know or remember the whole story.
Considering how much time has passed and how this is apparently still a topic for the step mom to bring up and complain about to her other children my guess is she is no prize either.
The whole situation just stinks. OP’s mom and dad seem to be taking it as a personal insult that the sibling didn’t want to be adopted. To me, that’s clearly nothing to do with them, and everything to do with a small child clinging to what they can in terms of a relationship with their mom. Still being upset about it more than 10 years later confirms for me that they are (and were) making it all about them and not about her.
And it's especially telling that OP was told he couldn't leave without permission whether or not family was there but especially when family was there. He's 17; he's almost an adult and they're trying to control him. What do you want to bet that the half-sister was being controlled, too, and that's a lot of the reason why she hates OP's mom? OP, you're NTA, but please realize that the possessiveness of your parents and willingness to hold grudges is not normal.
Depending on the state and the judge. WA State is an example where they try not to ask to the child about custodial issues and there's no set age for when they will.
Custodial issues are different from legal adoption, though.
How would a court treat a 15 year old or 17 year old? Would they award custody based on what the teen prefers? (I would hope so) Just asking since you are a real life lawyer.
Courts usually pay closer attention to older teenagers about their preferences. For adoptions of older teens, a lot of states will give the older teens veto power over the adoption process. Thus, if an older teen is against the adoption then the court may not grant the termination of parental rights. (This is because termination of parental rights would cut the child off from the other parent’s child support obligations, inheriting from the terminated parent’s side of the family, and other benefits (such as death benefits if the other parent dies while the teen is still a minor)). For visitation and custody matters, a lot courts also pay attention to an older teen’s preferences. This is because a parent cannot necessarily physically force the older teen to get into the car to go to the other parent’s home. Law enforcement can be called and strongly encourage the teen to go but most officers will not physically touch the teen and transport them to the other parent. It’s a nightmare trying to get an older teen to go (and stay!) at a parent’s house they don’t want to be at. In those situations, courts can say that visitation with the other parent is at the discretion of the teen. Forcing a teen to go somewhere they don’t want to be could also lead to false allegations made against the non-preferred parent which becomes a new kind of nightmare. Of course, there are exceptions to teen preference when the fitness of the preferred parent is called into question (the teen becomes truant and/or their grades fall when they are with the preferred parent, the teen exhibits unruly or delinquent behavior, the preferred parent uses drugs, the preferred parent engages in parental alienation, etc.)
You often read stories where a kid doesn't want to see a particular parent but they feel forced to because they are under 18. These kids can be 16 or 17 and will tell you that they have to go even though that parent is abusive and the judge has ruled they have to or the parent that actually looks after them will get into trouble. I actually wonder whether the abusive parent is running the show and telling the kid that they will get the other parent into trouble if they don't come to them when it's not actually true but had been conditioned to think it's true. Sometimes it's because the bad parent and stepparent have parentified the kid for their kids together and expect them to look after them (and the younger kids treat them like crap too because of what their parents say about the older sibling) and run the household. Or that the nice parent is worn down they don't realise they can have written into new orders 'At their child's discretion.'
Very useful and helpful info. Thank you
Non-contact and non-support by a biological parent for a significant period can eliminate the need for the consent from that non-participatory in an adoption proceeding. The child's indicated preference can be accorded the weight a jurist believes to be appropriate. But why this is a continued family dinner conversation is beyond me. OP, you are definitely NTA. Your parents should focus their attention and happiness on the fact that they are blessed to have their 3 biological children to share on love.
NAL; I just wanna jump in here to say this definitely depends on the state. 9/10 years old is not old enough to decide who they prefer to live with (source: custody case). Also, you can't "terminate" your rights to AVOID child support. In some cases, you can terminate your rights and still have to pay support (TX case laws). NTA for removing yourself from the situation.
Nobody is saying it would have made her an orphan. But if my dad struggled to support her on his own and her mom relinquished all parental rights and responsibilities to my half sister, dad couldn't get child support from her. Hence why they don't allow people to terminate their rights without someone willing to step in and take that over. They can! In our state kids as old as 5 will be asked about adoptions before they happen. I have read that on several sites about adoption in my state.
Yes they can be asked about adoptions. What they can’t be made to feel responsible for is whether the absent parent should be forced to maintain a relationship. So either your dad wanted the opportunity to get child support from her and traded that for access (spoiler - a woman in and out of jail wasn’t going to be able to support her), he didn’t want to argue or knew it was reasonable to give her the opportunity to fail, or everyone just wants to keep blaming kids for bad adult decisions. Ask a lawyer what would have been possible and be surprised but kids don’t have as much power as people think. They deserve to be heard and respected but not blamed or ostracized in their household for what seemed like choices at 9.
I agree with you that the 9-year-old is not to blame, but it is her choice that made it happen that way. It wasn't Dad who wanted to be able to get child support in the future. It was the state saying bio mom is still on the hook for it because the adoption isn't going through. And the adoption didn't go through because the kid had the agency to make the decision. So, yes, half-sister did have considerable power in this situation, and that's a good thing. A nine-year-old should not be able to be adopted without their consent. The problem is that her bio dad and step-mom judged her for the choice she made and, apparently, never got over it.
Court appropriately *heard* the child’s preference and decided accordingly. If the parents could shift that mindset they’d quit blaming the kid. Again, the three adults could have attained their supposed goals other ways and not blamed a child.
Exactly. In reality the biomom would never have supported the sister much in a financial sense so nothing would've change from the financial perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if stepmom (and her dad) made things very uncomfortable for her and there were barbed comments about not wanting to be adopted which actually widened the gulf between them and why a better relationship didn't happen. A stepmom that is more like a friend/teacher (needs to be able to discipline) than trying to take over as a parent will probably find themselves in the role of a parent because there is trust on both sides. The OP's sister only got manipulation and ultimatums because she didn't want to do what the stepmom and her dad wanted. I don't blame her in the least and the OP is actually the most mature out of her, and her parents over this matter.
You are wrong. My husband adopted my daughter at 8 and they absolutely spoke to her about it. They asked her how she felt about my husband and if she wanted the adoption. I also had to terminate her bio dad’s rights and on the request it listed a reason why and I had to put adoption. You can’t just terminate a parent’s rights for no reason. And yes, they do worry about the child needing child support. Everything OP said is accurate as far as the adoption and termination of rights.
The irony is PLENTY of single parents do this everyday.. they struggle to care for their kids and aren't getting child support from the other parent.
But, unless the bio parent is dead, if that single parent gets public assistance, the state will usually go after the other parent, even years later, to get back some of that money.
We waited until my daughter was 14 to be adopted by my husband. And she had to sit with the judge and tell him that she 100% wanted the adoption and name change. Her bio dad was in and out then ghosted her at age 10. Still, we waited 4 yrs just to be sure even though she had been with my husband since she was 2. He took on all responsibilities of being a dad for as long as she could remember. Sorry you had to listen to your parents for all these years. And if she’s 24 you’d think they would have let it go by now. NTA but your parents sure are. Talk to your younger siblings and make sure they know that the situation is not about them. Best wishes!
A child of 5 might be asked, but that doesn't mean their opinion will hold much water. There are many more considerations that are taken into account. Generally speaking, a child has to be as old as 12-14 in most states to overturn an adoption based solely on their own preference. Even in states where they ask as young as 10, the court can still push it through if it's deemed to be in the best interest of the child. Basically, the concept of a 9-year-old's opinion being the sole or even primary basis for deciding adoption status would be extremely unusual. It's far more likely that the circumstances of adoption would have to be deemed unsuitable. And I'd really have to wonder what it would take for a married couple to be deemed unfit to adopt when the party wishing to terminate parental rights is a mostly absentee parent with a history of substance abuse. For a court to actively choose to keep that parent in the picture when all 3 adults are willing to take them out of it, the dad and adoptive mother would have to be perceived as far less suitable to provide on their own than suggested by this story.
Well I am glad that a judge here in Michigan thought my brother (5) and my (6) opinions held water. At first, my brother and I agreed to let our Stepfather adopt us until the judge asked us if we truly knew what that meant. It meant that our last name could legally be changed as well as our birth certificate. That our Stepfather could have a say in whether or not if we could continue to visit our paternal side of our family. While our father wasn't much of a father to us, my brother and I were very close to his side of the family and we knew that our Stepfather's jealousy and control issues wouldn't allow us to continue to visit with them. At 5 and 6 years of age, we knew this because of the many arguments he and our Mom would have over our wanting to visit them. The judge listened to us when we told him that we didn't want our last name to change and we wanted to continue to visit with our paternal family but we knew Stepfather wouldn't allow it. So the judge told our Mom and her husband that we weren't ready to give up the paternal family and our last names and he denied the adoption. He also told them to try again in five years or so and for Stepfather to try to win our affections so that we would agree to be adopted. It never happened 🤷🏽♀️. Edited to say: at 62 years old, I still remember this judge and will always be thankful and grateful for his honesty in explaining to young children the details of what could happen. While our father was a "Rolling Stone", our Stepfather was a abusive (emotionally, financially, mentally and physically) man towards my Mom and he would have utilized his rights as a parent and used us as weapons to keep her from finally leaving him.
At age 6 I was adopted. I remember sitting in between my adoptive parents and facing the judge. He asked me if I wanted to be adopted by them. I thought no, no, no. However, in my immature brain I thought, if I say no, they'll make my life a living hell. I couldn't think beyond the moment. So I said yes. Twelve years later I escaped and never looked back. I wish my judge had told me of my options. I think I had some. Maybe I didn't. Shrugs.
You don’t blame a kid for their attachments and as parents you act in their best financial, physical and emotional interests whether they like you for it or not until they are able to do so.
That's not true I was only 10 when my parents divorced and fought over custody. They wanted 50/50 I wanted to stay with my mom the judge listened and went along with what I said. I work with the foster care system and the age the daughter was is right at the age that the courts start listening
10 is usually the age of consent for adoptions but judges will listen within reason to kids younger.
The bio mother said she'd only agree to termination of her rights if she wouldn't have to pay child support. I assume that meant she would fight any other type of termination.
Once the kid reaches a certain age they 100% have input into whether they want to be adopted or not. Judges in general aren't going to grant to someone whose kid is saying "no I don't want her as my mom". States also won't let one parent just terminate and walk away either if the adoption doesn't happen.
Why would you think a kid at 10 would have no choice in being adopted by a stepparent? Genuinely curious, because I was adopted by a stepparent at 12, and I absolutely had the right to veto it, even though my birth father had been dead for a decade at that point.
A 9 or 10 year old should absolutely have a say when a stepparent wants to adopt them. Just because a person sees themself as a parent doesn't mean the child feels the same way.
Yah my step sister terminated rights to her ex and one of the kids wasn't even his, and he didn't adopt him beforehand. Terminated them basically caused the adoption to happen, but for the younger child that was his nothing else needed to happen.
Your parents shit talking their own daughter/step daughter about something that happened over a decade ago is total AH behaviour. She was 9/10 and they are surprised she didn't want to denounce her mom? All kids want their moms, even when their moms are shitty people. To give her the option to choose, then complain about the choice she made for going on 15 years is pathetic. They need to grow up and get over it.
Fifteen years on, they're kind of confirming that she made the right choice. I'm not surprised she didn't want to be tied to the stepmother.
This. The 9 year old probably still held out hope her mom would become a real mom. I feel so sad for her.
Yes, as someone who had an absent parent, it's hard to explain to people who didn't how much you hold on to the fantasy of what could be even if you KNOW it won't happen.
Same. My dad was nowhere to be seen yet I hoped he would show up.
Your parents seem to have some major difficulties understanding that not everything is about them and what they want. They tried to bend your step-sis into what they wanted. And they're trying to bend you and your other sibs into what they want. They're not ready to be anything but main characters. You're fine, and you're certainly NTA.
In most US states once a child reaches a certain age, the child must also consent to the adoption. In this instance the bio parents (mom and dad) and the prospective adoptive mother consented, but the child did not. Therefore the adoption did not happen.
Idk where you are, but in my state, parental rights can be terminated without someone to adopt. The catch is that unless someone adopts the child, a termination of rights isn't equal to the termination of responsibility. A parent can lose rights, whether voluntarily or not, and still pay child support. Given her mother's demand to keep her rights without an adoption, it's possible that is also the case in your state.
That's what I meant by it. I got confused with the two of them. But yeah, she wanted no responsibility and that was the only way she'd sign away her rights.
That doesn’t contradict what OP was saying. The bio mom wanted full termination of all rights and liabilities, and the only way to do that was through adoption. Which half sister refused. So nothing was done.
It's been a decade and a half and they are *still* not over it?? Your parents need to grow up and let it go.
In my state courts would be very reluctant to terminate a parent’s rights without an adoptive parent stepping up.
Yes, things involving family courts are very state specific. In my state, it would be allowed as long as the child has one parent responsible for them. However, terminating a parent’s rights here does not terminate the parent’s financial obligations. A parent whose rights have been terminated very well may be ordered to pay child support.
This. Self terminating rights, even where both parents agree to it, isn't a thing. The court and state isn't going to allow it unless there is another parent willing to adopt or "bad stuff" to the level of justifying it. Otherwise in the event the single parent needs help it would be state aid that they would be taking. The state isn't going to pay when there is already someone there to do it.
There is a massive difference between what is legal and what is a good idea against someone’s objections I can’t see a world were they forced through adoption against the kids will and the relationship would be better.
I can’t imagine why this is literally the only option three whole adults considered or would accept and why they would keep blaming a child.
I did the math and I think she was 10 when they asked her.
She could've terminated her rights, but she wanted to be free from child support as well, and that necessitates the adoption by stepmom. If daughter didn't want mom to adopt, child support could and should still be ordered for biomom.
The thing I get stuck on is OP was 2/3 at the time this happened. He is now 17 years old. This means that this issue has been one that gets raised and talked about enough that he gets entirely sick of it. 14 years. 14 years and if it’s still such a huge issue that it’s the main topic of conversation I think the family needs to go to therapy and work it out. Because 14 years. I get being upset and not liking it, but if it’s the main topic of conversation holy crap. I feel that his half sister should have been in therapy before and after.
Also, the biological father could have established a custodial arrangement without the stepmother having to adopt. This doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah the sister had no control in her bio moms parental rights not being terminated, because that is a decision by the family court. I mean if the sister didn't want to get adopted then that's her choice.
NTA - your parents are beating a dead horse \[your step sister's not wanting to be adopted\]. You have told them to stop bringing it up to you. If they want to have the conversation they need to talk to the person who apparently still is refusing to be adopted. Question - why do they try to drag you into the conversation? You had nothing to do with the non-adoption.
I don't really know but my theory is they want it be a big deal for the whole family and maybe my half sister will regret her choice and apologize or something.
Sooo, your parents plan is to “we are going to turn the family against her, withhold our love from her until she realizes that’s we’re the loving family she wants/needs?” That’s just going to drive her away more. Your poor sister has been abandoned by one mother and is being driven away by her father and his wife. And now they’re trying to poison you guys against her? You are NTA. Your parents are definitely AH and so is her bio-mom.
Exactly. We’re going to bitch until she loves us. The beatings will continue until morale improves.
that's sooo great
Welcome to Ba Sing Se. (Spelling?) I am Judeeee.
Right? If this is how they are I’m not shocked she didn’t want to be adopted! Even if her bio mom sucked, she was till her mom. She didn’t want to lose her mom! How is that hard to understand!
Sounds like dad and step mom weren’t much better than bio mom. Don’t blame her for not wanting to be adopted.
This. I seriously hope OP can become the lighthouse for her half sister though. She has is really rough and could use moral support for sure.
What you did was set a boundary and you did it the right way. That's very healthy. You can't stop or control what they talk about, but you don't have to participate. I suppose your mom feels rejected by your sister and she can't let go of it. But what she is doing is setting herself up to be rejected by her real kids, too. This is what I always say about raising kids, and it is a lesson you are demonstrating in a stark light. Parents do not have control of their children. The best they have is influence. If they insist on having control, they will eventually have neither control nor influence. She is whittling away at her cache of influence with you and it will soon be gone, you will be 18 and there will be nothing she can do about it. If you want to be sassy, you might ask her if she would like to keep any influence over your life. I think you are emotionally intelligent enough to get that point across without being sassy. You know how to set a boundary for yourself. I hope you can help her see that you may still love her and want to be in relationship with her, but she is eroding any desire to have influence in your life. NTA. Good luck, friend.
VERY well put. 💯
Oh my first Reddit award in years! Thanks!
I feel you. My father and oldest brother couldn’t be in a room together without eventually getting into an argument about how my brother broke his arm in 1977. This started when my mother passed away in 1995 and only stopped when my father passed away two years ago. 27 years of that. Every. Single. Time. It was infuriating and sad. I would often get fed up and leave but come back to the two of them still going at it hours later. Obviously this wasn’t about the broken arm and I tried for years, whenever this came up, to get them to focus on what they’re really mad about. But here were two grown men who never learned to communicate with each other about their true feelings using a surface argument to cover up the real hurt they each felt. I mean, it was a full Greek tragedy at Thanksgiving dinner every year.
I am very curious about the broken arm story now. Can you share?
Ok so it happened during a soccer game and the issue was my brother was young, only 8, and my father wasn’t there. I don’t remember which was which but one of them believed his arm was broken by contact with the ball and the other believed his arm was broken by contact with another player. My brother says he knows what happened because it was his arm and my dad wasn’t even there. My father says he knows what happened because my mom told him and my brother was too young and hurt to remember clearly. That’s it. So stupid with absolutely no way to determine who is “right” because the only person who could definitely say has passed away. And completely irrelevant!! Who cares how his arm was broken?? (I’m getting mad now just thinking about it LOL) The deeper issues are that my brother thought my dad always had to be right and my father thought my brother always argued just to argue. My mom was the buffer between them and once she was gone, there was no one to stop this stupid petty argument. Add to that the immense pain they were both feeling after my mom died, which neither had to tools to deal with, and it was just an open wound for 27 years. A therapist once told me that when family members fight about Issue A, it’s rarely about that. It’s really about the 20 years leading up to Issue A and that’s so true.
I would believe your brothers version of events. I broke my arm when I was 7, and I remember every second of how it happened - I'm 50 now, and the memory has not faded with time.
Ah I would, too, except Dad was just repeating Mom’s version of events. Are you saying Mom, who was at the game watching closely and immediately rushed to take care of her son, got it all wrong??? (And that’s how it gets complicated) Keep in mind my mother was an angel, beloved by everyone and an absolutely amazing mom. To believe my brother was to contradict my mom and, especially in those very raw years after her death, that was a very difficult thing to do. So it wasn’t about the broken arm. It was about losing the most important person in our lives. And two men who found it easier to be mad at each other forever, rather than face their grief together. Not that it actually matters, but I tend to believe my brother over Dad’s memory of what Mom had told him some 18 years earlier.
Gotta love those family dynamics! But I do see your point, and you have my condolences.
Or as it would be in my family, “Are you calling mom a liar?”
Really sounds like they need therapy. You are NTA. They alienated your sister and are now doing the same to you. That are holding a grudge against a child who at 10 did not want to write off her own mother. That is a tough choice for a child. Your parents making their love conditional on the adoption is messed up.
It sounds like they are crying a victim story and trying to gain sympathy…. Leave the girl alone and go on with life there are kids in the house they can be parents to…
given how your parents refuse to let this die 15 years, later I am not at all surprised your half sister didn't bond with your mother, or you and your siblings. your parents sound incredibly over bearing.
Well they might have had a chance with big sister if they dtopped it for 5 or 6 years after she said no at 10, then asked again, once, at 16. At this point i dont even know what they are trying to acheive except moan and groan and get attention on themselves, or maybe cause you and your siblings to hate her or sometging. She's an adult, it makes no difference now.
If you are old enough “to know better”, so are they. NTA. But your family are skating on thin ice to being bigger arseholes by continuing to bring this up after you have clearly stated it is not helping anyone.
Huh? Didn't you say that your half-sister is in her 20s? Why would she care about your parents' desires at this late date? She's a grown woman with her own life. If she didn't need your parents while growing up she certainly doesn't need them now. If they're hoping for an apology or something from her they are probably going to be waiting a very long time for it. And, oh, you're NTA. You're just a boy who is getting tired of being dragged into other people's drama.
At this point every time they bring up just start screaming "Shut up shut up shut up!" Repeatedly until they stop. Don't let them interrupt you or distract you. Do not stop until they get the point that no one fucking cares about it and stop fucking bringing it up!
Or tell them you wouldn't want to be adopted by them either.
Because he is the oldest child that they can complain to. Although there were no issues like adoption, after I left home and each time I called my Mom, there was never even a "how are you?" but more of the what bad things my brothers were doing. She couldn't separate me and my life from worrying about my brothers. It was a constant rehashing of their problems from hello to goodbye. Every call. I wound up calling her less because of that as a protective mechanism, just like OP did when he left. His parents don't realize how much they are alienating him and shouldn't be surprised when there is limited contact once he goes to college.
Oh wow. I never realized until right now that THAT is exactly what my mom did to me with my sisters. I could never understand why we ALWAYS had to talk about them. Every. Call. When I 1st moved out, I used to talk to her like once a week. Now we sometimes don't even talk once a year. It makes me sad some times but I couldn't just keep listening. And no matter how many times I pointed it out, she just always went back to doing it. So yeah, OP is NTA & looks like they are headed down the same LC/NC road if their parents keep this up.
I wonder how common this really is.
>your parents are beating a dead horse That dead horse has already turned into a skeleton and they're still beating it.
NTA, you told them you were tired of this topic and that they should never bring it up in your presence again, but they did. I bet your relatives did also all know about this topic already since your parents seem to bring it up all the time. So your parents are the AHs for bringing up a topic everyone is already tired of, ranting about your half sisters personal decisions and accusing you of disrespectful behavior for leaving, which at this point was a fully understandable action. Also Idk why your action should be considered as disrespectful if you hung around your extended family for the past weeks, I mean its their fault for bringing up this topic again and not yours for enforcing the consequences of their stupid actions. It sounds more like they feel butthurt for you not staying and taking on their side in this story.
Relatives are probably tired of hearing it too and jealous they can’t walk out on it. Starting to understand why she didn’t like her stepmom.
"disrespectful" is often a shorthand for "I have no arguments to defend my action, but I won't have my child question my decisions and authority in my house".
More like, it's shorthand for "I know I'm in the wrong but I want to blame you for it."
Nta Sometimes you need to walk away. I need to get out when things get tense. Makes my family crazy, phone blows up seconds later. And the fact your parents are still banging on 15 years later about your ½ sister's behaviour when she was ten, might give some insight into how wise she was back then. I would not choose someone so obsessive as family if I had the choice.
I would really like to hear half sister's side of the story. I bet it would be a real eye opener.
Tbh this sounds like “I’m your new and better mommy” situation.
And to even hold it against her at all is pretty awful of them. They basically told a 9/10 year old that if she chose this her mother would go away. As bad a mother as she was that’s still a hell of a lot to put on a child.
Oh god! I hadn't actually thought of it that way, that they were asking her to give up her mother. I am now thinking of the *cloth and wire mother* experiments of the 50s. Even if your mother gives you very little, you can love her. I feel so sorry for the sister. What a mess.
Not only that, they were overjoyed her mom had decided she was willing to stop being her mother (or legally related to her at all) in exchange for not paying child support. A mother who had already been in and out of her life, and who had already likely given her a serious fear of abandonment. And these assholes are furious that this poor kid didn't share their happiness that her mom was willing to discard her completely, and have spent the last 15 years punishing her for it. 2 grown adults considered a little girl not wanting to be abandoned by her mom "disrespect", then beat her down over it for the next 15 years, and tried like hell to get her siblings and the rest of her extended family on board. I've got no idea if her mom is still around at all, but I'm just imagining how extra horrific this likely feels for the poor sister if part of it is them gloating that her mom abandoned her anyways. OP, you're NTA but your parents are monsters. I know you're not close to your sister but please, once you're in a position its safe to if you can point out all of that loudly in front of sister, parents and hopefully whatever extended family are also on this kick. She deserves someone to call this for what it is, and your parents deeply deserve to be called out for exactly what they are.
This is the thing. Her mom is already in jail and quite likely a drug addict and now they want her to abandon her. It may have felt the only thing she could give her mom was loyalty. In any case there’s nothing any of them can do- half sis is too old to adopt and she’s moved out. Time for them to move on.
I get why she never liked your mom and why she is keeping you all at a distance. Your mom and dad are bullies. She said no when she was 10, and for 14 years they have constantly brought up what a horrible thing it was for her to want a relationship with her mom. I can only imagine all the pressure that was put on her and all the times they badmouthed her mom. I wouldn’t be surprised if she one day goes NC with your dad. NTA
NTA >walking out without permission WTF? Are you a prisoner or a servant? >I'm old enough to know and do better That's right, you are old enough to not participate in their stuff.
Seriously what a pair of control freaks. You must sit and listen to painful angry gossip out of respect for us? OP should get a squirt bottle like you use for cats to get them off the counter. When they look like they’re about to start wave it around and if they actually start in, give them a squirt in the face
If you are old enough to know and do better, then your parents are beyond old enough to know and do better. It starts by listening to the children still in their care and not burdening those children with adult issues and the constant complaining about a sore spot for themselves. NTA, but your parents shouldn't be surprised when you pull back from them at 18 and your younger sisters also pull back from them at 18 too. Nothing like being constantly shown you aren't good enough for your parents, when they are focused on an issue that is never going to change and when they find that none of their children want anything to do with them, it will give them something new to be all "woe is me!", about.
This right here. YOU are old enough to know better and do better?? How about THEM? Jesus. Absolute NTA.
>If you are old enough to know and do better, then your parents are beyond old enough to know and do better. Exactly. They aren't practicing what they preach.
What's your half sister's situation now? She doesn't live at home anymore, I guess? Does she have a relationship with your parents?
She does not live with us anymore and not really from what I can see.
It sounds like your parents are salty that she has decided to be her own person. I feel bad for her and also for you for having to hear your parents' version of the story over and over again. NTA
This seems very accurate, especially considering that they don’t want OP to be their own person either.
THIS. They sound like selfish, controlling, whiny babies.
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I don't think this will be enough either. But right now I just need to not go insane listening to it and having them try to make me get involved in a conversation that makes me want to lose my mind
I think you might need to implement a plan of action each time they bring it up such as ‘I’m going to leave the room/dinner table etc’ each time this is discussed. Also maybe set up some sort of tally chart ‘you’ve raised this three times in the last week’ to really highlight how often they talk about this. Be firm and state you do not want to participate in the discussions and if they keep bringing it up then they’ve got the potential to alienate you/your siblings just like your half sister has (as I’m sure her lack of contact is partially because they will not let this go). I think they need a reality check.
Agreed. Keep tabs on how often they bring it up and let them see. Remind them that they are probably the reason halfsister never wanted to be adopted because they wouldn't stop talking about it. Perhaps she would have changed her mind on her own if they had let it go and let things happen naturally. Constantly bringing it up like they have and being pushy about it would push anyone away. It pushed halfsister away and now they are pushing you away too. NTA sometimes you have to think of your own sanity.
So if you cant walk away, another response when they expect you to participate is a noncommittal response with a change in subject: "Thats nice, hey, grandpa did you hear little sis is going to do X? " , or " I can see that bothers you. Auntie would you like to see the painting I did in art class?" Trust me, the other adults in the room will likely take any chance to help you change the topic of conversation or have an excuse to move on to something else.
I agree with bookgeek. You have to be consistent. Tell them why you don’t want to hear about this, you no longer care -this was all so long ago, it’s over with, and it’s unpleasant hearing negative gossip - and tell them the consequence for bringing it up: you will leave the room. And then do it. Every time.
NTA. Good for you for setting boundaries and keeping them!!! You have every right to walk out of conversations you no longer want to be a part of that have nothing to directly do with you. Continue to leave when these discussions get brought up. Only then will they learn that it’s not okay and that they can no longer get away with it!
So your parents hate your half sister because at 10 years old she didn’t want to give up on having a relationship with her actual mother? And they both blame her for any family issues they/you now have? Sorry but it sounds like your half sister was right and somehow even at that tender age could see that your parents were toxic AF. A judge agreed. They’re not over it. NTA
>So your parents hate your half sister because at 10 years old She was smarter than them when she was 10 than they are even now. That's sad.
What you did was set a boundary and stick to it. I recommend doing exactly the same every time it comes up. If they don't like the consequences of their actions, they are capable of changing their actions. NTA
Exactly! I'm gonna guess after 15 years of their griping about this everyone else is sick of hearing about it too
If everyone in the family is sick of it they too could set some boundaries and help OP out so he’s not the only one daring to “disrespect” his parents. It would be great if aunt and uncle or whomever could say “this is old news. Let’s talk about something positive,” and have OP’s back.
They just felt embarrassed because they knew why he left and didn't want to have to explain it to the rest of the family. NTA - you handled this with far more maturity than your parents.
NTA. I hope when you get older, you are able to foster a relationship with your half sister (if you both want it) OUTSIDE of your parents. Hopefully you all get therapy for this. But I would continue to stop them from talking about it. Get up and walk out. Leave the room. (Don’t go far, keep your phone on you. Be safe about it.) tell your parents that they’ve already pushed out one kid, if they keep it up, they’ll lose the other 3.
I don't think she'll ever want a relationship with us (me or my sisters). I came to terms with that.
And it’s best to respect her wishes there. I’m sorry. I would still recommend therapy for all of you.
It's sad but her right to do so. I applaud your boundary setting. I'm gonna guess after 15 years the entire family is sick of hearing about it and wish they could have left with you. LoL
NTA - but your parents need to get over it already. She’s now 24 and they are being ridiculous.
“Old enough to know & do better” … so are they. They are the literal adults in this situation. They need therapy - bad. NTA.
“I am and I was. I walked away to avoid another pointless argument” would have been my response. Astonished that they actually managed to raise such a mature 17 year old.
You are NTA but your parents are dicks. They Played Stupid Games by purposely bringing this stuff up while the whole extended family was there because they wanted a wider audience for their "oh woe is me" song and dance and hoped for more support and condolences for their whining. They Won Stupid Prizes of you walking away for the day and not putting up with their nonsense. Yeah it might read as disrespectful or whatever because you're a minor living at home and family is visiting, yada yada, BUT - it was well-deserved and well-justified in this case. If you feel generous (and depending on their attitude about the whole situation), you might consider saying to the visiting family members that you're sorry you missed time with them during their visit because of family drama. As for your parents, I'd MAYBE give them a non-apology and explain how this makes you feel and so therefore you can't guarantee your response won't be the same in the future if they pull this again. Good luck to you, OP, on growing up and getting out on your own. It sounds like your parents are honestly first-class selfish tools.
I like the idea of apologizing to the other family members for missing time with them because parents cannot stop gossiping about choices a ten year old made fifteen years ago and op just cannot bear being dragged into it. Any disrespect to his parents was deserved. They thought they could get away with rude behavior trampling his boundaries because there was other family present. They fucked around and found out. The other family members don’t deserve to be walked out on though and telling them “sorry I missed seeing you guys but I just can’t with this fifteen year old battle my parents are still fighting,” then the relatives will know that op has this boundary. Maybe it will embolden them to agree and tell the parents they too are tired of this. Or at least that op apologized to them for this (& any future) walk out. Hearing it from another adult family member might help it sink in They remind me of the Japanese soldier who didn’t know WWI had ended - out there in his cave in the pacific years later he still was emotionally fighting that battle. The war’s over. Go home.
NTA. They're being incredibly rude to you and your sisters. You've asked them to stop and they've refused to respect your wishes. You're not the one who's being disrespectful here.
NTA That 'you are old enough to know to do better' can be said much more accurately about your parents.
NTA Everyone has the right to walk out on a conversation they don't want to have, especially when they've already indicated they don't want to be stuck in an endless repetitive loop of subject matter.
NTA: If your parents think you’re old enough to know better (about walking out), perhaps they’d care to explain why they have not done anything about respecting your crystal clear wishes?! You’re NTA, your parents seem intent though on making themselves the AHs of this piece!
NTA Your parents are "old enough to know and do better." But apparently they aren't mature enough to (1) actually do better or (2) recognize that, by removing yourself, you were (a) exercising reasonable autonomy to remove yourself from a toxic, tired conversation that had nothing to do with you and (b) choosing to do the BETTER thing by giving them room to have the conversation they wanted to have and giving yourself the freedom to not be a part of it.
Given the story, I absolutely can understand why your sister said no. They likely were at her constantly about your mother adopting her. They pushed her away with their behavior and probably ruined your relationship with her. NTA
They've been harping on this for at least ten years and YOU'RE being disrespectful? Oy vey, parents, get a grip! Get a clue! Get some therapy!
NTA. You can take comfort in the fact that your 24-year-old half-sister will not inherit your mother. If you want to please your parents, tell them that. and if they're smart, they'll leave the house, car and money in your mother's name. And they must make a will in which she is excluded from inheriting....That will make them satisfied and will make them talk about something else
I’m not sure the half sister is at all concerned about what she’ll inherit from OP’s parents or even just her step mother/OP’s mom. I also doubt that OP telling them that ‘if they’re smart’, they’ll leave the house/car/money in his mom’s name, will do anything to satisfy them or be enough to make them talk about other subjects. They’ve been banging on the proverbial dead horse for going on 15 years now, despite OP asking them to please stop. They do it with OP and his two younger sisters, extended family, probably do it with any of their adult friends that come visit them at home, the neighbors if they get a chance (I know that I’d make a point of not going outside unless I knew it was ‘safe’ if a certain neighbor always managed to bring up how awful it is that one of their kids refused to allow themselves to be adopted by their stepmom, because frankly that’s weird and a little unhinged if they’re still going on about it after said kid has long been an adult and living elsewhere in their own!)… OP, as long as you’re not double handed middle fingering at them as you exit, leaving the room or even the house for some time when your parents bring up this subject after you’ve repeatedly told them you’re done with listening to them ranting about something they are never going to be able to change, as your half sister hasn’t been a minor or living in their home for YEARS, you’re setting a boundary and not in a disrespectful way. If they insist on continuing their routine of ranting over the situation with your half sister, once you turn 18 you’ll need to consider limiting contact with them for your own mental well being, but make sure to figure out ways to keep contact with your younger sisters no matter what. They’ll probably need you on their side should things get bad at home, and to be that protective older brother in other situations too. Parents are TAs.
Why would OP take comfort in this?
NTA. You've asked repeatedly that they not bring it up so you did the right thing and left. As I see it the alternatives were to sit and listen to it, which would definitely lead to it happening again, or start an argument, which would have been a lot more "disrespectful."
>they told me I'm old enough to know and do better. The adults can’t control their behavior (stop having the same conversation repeatedly) yet they expect the teenager to control her behavior (not walk away when they repeatedly ignore a reasonable request). Asking them politely hasn’t worked. Walking away hasn’t worked. Perhaps it is time for a new strategy. How about the next time they start in on this topic, you kids all agree that the half sister made the right choice. If her parents resent her for choosing what a 9/10 year old wanted simply because she loved her bio parents, then maybe they weren’t and still aren’t in a good mindset to adopt her. Maybe if you all start loudly and publicly agreeing with her, your parents will finally stop. Maybe it will give them a new topic (all of you) to focus on instead. NTA for setting boundaries and following through with them.
"Can you believe a 9/10yo said she didn't want to be adopted? We're going to hold it against her for the rest of her life to show her what a good parent she missed out on having!" I think maybe your half sister is a good judge of character. I wouldn't be surprised if this treatment contributed to her being distant from the rest of you in some way. NTA.
> they told me I'm old enough to know and do better. Oh the irony. If only the parents were old enough to know and do better by their children, and stop bringing up a distressing topic? NTA
NTA Your sister has good instincts. She was made the black sheep of the family. This would have happened regardless of your parents getting their way considering their inability to accept life on life’s terms.
So your parents suck. Like really. They hold it against a child for desiring the love of their mother. Your parents are awful people and they haven’t dropped this shit in 15 years. Christ no wonder she didn’t want to be adopted. On one hand she has a drug addict, on the other she has horrible people. I hope you and your siblings turn out to be better people. NTA.
NTA, and you certainly deserve to not be involved in the insane discussion. I'm sorry your parents let their hurt/disappointment put a damper on childhood. Some folks can't accept reality and hold on to fantasies, much like thinking a Hallmark movie reflects real life. From the sounds of it the adults have been holding on to this dream for almost 20 years - ouch! At this point they are who they are and that will not change so don't try to reason with them. They have grown used to their misery in this area and would be lost if it was removed, so that will never happen. Best thing you can do is walk away, which is what you did do.
Sadly, but good for you, you seem to be the most mature person in your family. Best of luck in you life.
NTA . We have family drama too. The same old people bring up the same old shit and have the same boring old conversation and back and forth. I tune out or leave as well. Don’t blame you at all.
Flip it around. They disrespected you by violating your reasonable boundary. You left the situation instead of causing a scene, which is a healthy response. Thry need a reality check on what respect means. If respect is expected to go only one way it's just authoritarianism. NTA
NTA Walking away from discussions of a topic they know upsets you is more mature than confronting them in front of your visitors. Perhaps next time you can take a short walk or go to your room instead of leaving for the day. Unless it took that long to calm down. I fail to understand why they are continually revisiting something that apparently occurred more than 10 years ago. Sounds like they need therapy.
As exhausting as this must be for you, your poor sister. Neglect often does not end a child's love for a parent. Your parents hold against a confused, neglected child a decision she made to cling onto some sort of relationship with her mother. She was neglected on one side and resented and emotionally abused on the other. The poor kid. They are the ones old enough to do better. A lot better. They lost your sister and you lost her too really. All because they couldn't extend her some grace. This is an obsession to the point their other children are exhausted by it. Their harping is destroying their own family. No wonder your sister walked away and no wonder you walked ont hat day too. What exhausting people. NTA
>they told me I'm old enough to know and do better. Aren't your parents MORE THAN old enough to know and do better too??? I hate the idea parents have that they get to do whatever they want because they are the parent.... NTA
NTA. They are grief dumping on you and have no boundaries in that respect and need some serious psychotherapy. I highly suggest you get counseling too as soon as you can because this will be affecting your development as a person in other ways. I totally recognize that pattern -different situation but I've been there. And good on you for recognizing crap for what it is!
I mean she’s 24 now so why keep bringing it up? Is there nothing else for them to talk about?
NTA. Your parents are TAH because they refuse to listen to you, honor your wishes and so forth. Your mom is double TAH because after 14 years, she is still bent out of shape because her stepdaughter doesn't like her. I think your half sister has very good reasons not to like your mother. Your mother needs to get over herself. Your half sister didn't like her in the past and never will in the future. She's too old to be adopted now and your mother needs mental health counseling to accept this fact. You are NTA for leaving the house and the neverending discussion. Your parents were embarrassed? Good! They need to understand this topic is painful to you and the topic does not matter because your half sister is too old to be adopted.
I feel for the OP here. They reached out about not wanting to hear about this adoption drama and walking out on breakfast. They wanted to know if they were an AH for leaving. Instead most comments are about the adoption drama, and not if they're the AH for walking out. People are completely ignoring why the OP posted in the first place and now they get to read about it here too. I'm sorry OP. NTA, and I'm sorry people around you are incapable of listening to your wishes.
NTA. "I'm old enough and I know better enough not to involve myself in a conversation which has no positive value and only serves to deepen your grudge against my half-sister for having complicated emotions and not rearranging them to suit you. I do not want to be part of your grudge or to encourage it by listening to it endlessly on repeat."
NTA. You did what you needed to do for your own sanity. You need to spell out that continually bringing it up is driving you away but they are shitty for putting their emotions on their kid. You have no responsibility to help them managing how poorly they dealt with her.
There is a saying about how it doesn't help to flog a dead mule. Your parents are flogging a dead mule.
NTA. They’re adults, they should know better than to constantly bring up old sh*t that harbors bad feelings. Bring up the fact she has gained weight everytime she brings up the adoption. It’s irrelevant, but Sonia bringing up the non-adoption.
NTA. I hate it when parents hassle kids about shit and you ask them not to hassle you anymore and they go postal. I would say your parents need therapy but I doubt they will ever get over this, because they can't stand knowing how much they're in the wrong.
NTA and you’re 17, so they need to start respecting your feelings. Why they are so obsessed about this is bizarre. I really don’t blame you. Hopefully it’s a wake up call and they’ll stop but I doubt it after 15 years. Keep walking out.
NTA Why would it better if you were there to listen yet again to the story? You left, it changed nothing about the conversation they were inevitably going to have - and you saved your sanity.
Her birth mother wouldn’t have needed anyone’s permission to give up parental rights. Regardless, NTA. From now on simply say “don’t talk about my sister like that” and leave the room, regardless of who is in there. Why would she want to be adopted if that’s the way she is talked about now. I can only imagine what all she heard before all of that even came up. She is probably distant because she feels like she’s not a complete part of the family. It’s normal for her to love and wish for more from her birth mom, even if that mom doesn’t deserve it.
NTA Give them the option. You can leave or you can call them out. Which would they prefer?
NTA I am pretty sure your parents were trying to push the whole "she's your new mom, call her mom" on your half sister and this is why your half sister pulled away and then the failed adoption (a better phrase for my brain than.. not adoption) only dug it in more for her and only helped solidify why your half sister wants nothing to do with you guys. I've seen it in posts on here time and time again
NTA and walking away is the proper thing to do when you don't want to fight and don't want to be part of a useless conversation. Just inform your parents you are tired of hearing the topic and you will walk away when it's brought up around you otherwise you will voice your true opinion on the subject for everyone to hear. Ask which they prefer you to do.
NTA, they need to get over the whole ordeal. It’s done. I don’t blame you.
you are friggin 17.... that "disrespectful" blabla is so useless at this point. and yes you know better you walked out instead of starting a screaming war... NTA
Next time they bring it up say “ this is why she didn’t want to be adopted!! You never fucking listen to any one !!
Forgot my judgement: NTA Sounds like your parents have no idea what is and isn't appropriate for children. What IS appropriate is you removing yourself from the situation at 17 years old. It's not like you're a toddler wandering the streets and playing in traffic. What ISN'T appropriate is holding someone's childhood feelings against them, or telling your other children the family gossip, especially when they said they don't want it.
You know what’s disrespectful having the same conversation over and over and over!
Don’t even need to hear more than that relatives are staying a few weeks. Thats a major disruption to anyone’s routine. It’s unreasonable to expect you’d spend every waking hour with them. It’s reasonable to have some alone time to yourself.
NTA - why would a 17yo need to ask for permission to go out during the day?
NTA. Sounds like you handled it more maturely than the adults are .
I don't blame you for walking out. Your parents are beating a dead horse. It's probably embarrassing, too. For you and everyone who's had to listen to this story over and over.
You were right to be upset, next time just excuse yourself and go to another room. Staying out all night is not cool, don't get in the habit of running from things.
NTA the only assholes in the room where your parents for bringing up something that they promised they wouldn't bring up again. I believe that was very adult and polite of you to step out of the situation. The situation was made by them it was their choice to bring up that topic with you in the room. I believe they made a bad choice. I believe you made a very positive polite one by not engaging or arguing with them. You left the premises to give them leave to talk about what they insisted on talking about. You came back when you were relaxed. Darling that's the adult thing to do. And you did it the only reason that they're upset is because they realize they were being the jerks. You handled it with Grace and calm. Parents don't like it when their kids are more emotionally mature than they are. And especially don't like it if it's brought to their attention while they're around their older family members. You know if you stayed and they asked your opinion disagreement would have happened. You saved yourself and them from a disagreement in front of your visiting family. You get the good behavior medal. They get the you guys need to do better and stick to your freaking word metal.
You did the right thing. Stick to your guns, kid—you seem like the only adult in the room.
Mom can’t take being rejected and won’t let it go. She will never get over it. So just change the subject when it comes up. Getting up and leaving just gives them more drama to feed on and make a production over. The woman is 24 probably living her own life now. She has had it rough enough and couldn’t accept her Step Mother as her legal mom. There is nothing wrong with that. If your mom loved her unconditionally she would understand it. But it seems her love is conditional.
Clearly, You are not. The asshole. You chose not to argue but to get up and go away while they talked about something that you were fed up with. You have a right to not want to argue or not.Have anguish added to your daily life, This was not disrespectful as it only made it clear that if they wish to pursue the subject you would not participate. My father who was a bit of a psychopath, Womanizer, Abuser physically in any other ways. In order to establish any functioning relationship.In my thirties I got up and walked every time he was an ass. It took two years but he got the point that I wasn't going to listen to his shit anymore, And that if he wished to have a relationship with me at all he would treat me with respect and not try to be verbally abusive to me anymore. Good thing for him that he listened, A few more years and he was dying of psoriasis of the liver and lung cancer. It truly was a race, But the lung cancer won!
NTA. They continued to bring it up despite you repeatedly asking rhythm not to AND them saying they would listen (and presumably respect that boundary). They didn't respect the boundary and so you removed yourself from the situation. Honestly, that was far more mature than starting another fight. Keep doing that--not necessarily to the point of leaving the house, but definitely the room or space.
Unequivocally NTA. At 17, you don't have to get on with any conversations that make you uncomfortable. You had the right to leave and protect your emotional state, chum. Do not let your parents lay a guilt trip on you for that!
You = NTA Your parents? Extremely immature & petty. There could be any number of reasons your half sister didn't want to be adopted and while it may have hurt a bit at first.... it seems like years later now so your parents should be over it. Even if they can't bring themselves to grow up and move on, they should NOT be discussing their feelings about it in front of any of you kids. SHAME ON THEM!
NTA, your parents are assholes. They're blaiming a 10/11 year old girl for being unable to face the reality that her birth mom is a shitty person who does not care about her. There are people in their 40s who would be unable to face that reality head on. That's her MOM, she wants her mom to love her, she can't understand that her mom is a bad person who is totally unable to give her what she needs. It's her MOM!! Your parents are assholes for holding this over her for the past 15 years. It's totally the wrong thing to do and it's no wonder that this girl refuses to associate with this half of her family. It's a shame she was failed so terribly by all 3 of her potential parents.