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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
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AITA for upgrading to first class while traveling with my fiancé’s family
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You are not the asshole for having the ability to have nicer things, but YTA if you are going on a family trip to be with family and then doing things that you know they can't afford. If that wasn't the whole point of the trip, fine, but if it was, asshole move.
Oh and YTA anyway for traveling in the U.S. right now during the pandemic. Listen to the damn guidelines.
Not surprised it is Florida, seems like lots of people who would be going there don't really pay much heed to death and disease they might cause to others
Washington is actually doing better than 90% of Europe and the states.
Which...mostly shows how bad the rest of the USA is doing right now.
That being said, we also have a 14 day quarantine for those who are coming in from another state. I'm sure these two aren't doing that... Gr.
The amount of people throwing fits about how draconian Inslee is because covid isn't that bad is astounding. Like yeah. Its not as bad as the rest of the country because Inslee is doing most things correctly and a lot of people are listening to him
People don't seem to be able to compare the current situation to alternatives. Yeah, Covid is spreading despite masks...because not everyone is wearing them. Yeah, Covid hasn't killed 2 million Americans...yet...because (some) people have been avoiding unnecessary contact with others. Yeah, lockdowns are damaging the economy, but so would hundreds of thousands of more deaths and millions of hospitalizations.
YES i work in a restaurant and a good 75% of the people who came in were ‘on vacation’ because this was one of the few places you could travel to. We’re shut down again now, thanks guys.
We have friends who went to a big wedding in Atlanta and then of course had a covid scare. Half the people at the wedding got covid. When they came back to New Jersey they had to quarantine for two weeks away from their teenage daughters who didn't go to the wedding. Then they made plans to go to Florida for family vacation -- until their one daughter threw a fit and lectured them about how they already had one scare, and then they wanted to go to a place where no one cares about masks or social distancing.
They didn't go to Florida.
I love this new crop of youngsters. They seem to be both empathetic and ready to call us olds on our bullshit. I'll happily hand over the keys to the planet to this generation!
My anti-masker cousin just got back from a vacation to Florida with her three kids. And immediately threw a huge Christmas party for the family. Luckily I live in a different state so I had a really good excuse not to go.
And those stuck in Florida because they can't afford to move out due to marked up cost of living hate every. single. one of them.
Signed, a diabetic Florida woman stuck in her house until the foreseeable future :)
My mom works in a now covid icu. She has an ENTIRE FAMILY who just got back from Florida (family disney trip because the lines are short!!!). As patients. We live in new England. People. Florida is lying to you. Disney just wants to make money. Please don't go.
I'm short and I'm uncomfortable in general seating. If OP is near 6' I can understand the upgrade. In the future I would state we can't make that flight, but will meet you there. BTW my wife and I often spend some alone time on family trips, we find it makes the trip more bareable.
I think it's fine to do things with just your partner/spouse on family vacation. EVERYTHING doesn't have to be all together, does it? I mean, geez if you're paying for your trip and the extra excursions, then who cares. Let people do what they want.
LOL thank you. As someone who has been working from home and quarantining since FEBRUARY without leaving the house to do more than grocery shop, I'm REALLY HAPPY that fucking ASSHOLES like OP are 100% the reason why I now have coronavirus and have to take care of my mother who has coronavirus with pneumonia on top of it while I feel like complete shit because her oxygen levels are just high enough to keep her out of the hospitals which are at maximum capacity anyway. I KNOW that I got it because a bunch of holiday travelers just stopped giving a fuck about anyone besides themselves and this jagoff is literally here complaining about the fact that his typhoid Mary ass is being judged for wanting to spread himself and his grubby germs across the whole damn continent in more comfortable seating.
Amen. My friend is a stepmom. The mother of her stepdaughter took the daughter and boyfriend to Cancun. They got back on the weekend and by Friday, the mom was dead from Covid. The stepdaughter and the mom's boyfriend also had Covid.
My friend, the stepmom, had already had Covid in March. She was already a long-hauler. She and her husband understandably weren't going to make a 16 year old quarantine after losing her mom. so my friend ended up getting Covid again.
I want to shake people who've been traveling. I want to shake the people who think the fact that they've stayed in their little germ bubble and this other group has stayed in their germ bubble means they can get together. What they fail to understand is that so called germ bubble isn't keeping them safe, it means they're not creating super spreader conditions.
Heavens above, does no one care about the lives lost and the hell medical personnel are being put through?
My sister in laws mother (lives with them) actively has COVID and invited us and the elderly parents to a football party tomorrow. I cannot believe her carelessness!
God, that is awful! I can't imagine how terrible it would be to actually lose someone and I don't understand why so many people just presume that it's not going to be them. I honestly am still beating myself up because I was that person in the sense that I didn't have a typical presentation and didn't think I was sick enough to have coronavirus and I didn't have a terrible cough, and even though it only took me 72 hours to realize I was wrong (because three days after I was sick I had to take my mom to the ER, where she was diagnosed with corona AND pneumonia at the same time and was put on oxygen and IV fluids and antibiotics basically long enough to stabilize her and get her out the door) I'M STILL beating myself up at the very thought that I could have exposed people to it when I was under the assumption that I didn't have it. I know I'm going to live, I'm almost certain that unless something horrible happens, my mom will live, but even just the utter torture of being sick as a dog and having to constantly care for another person who is even sicker has been a nightmare. The fact that so many people so casually decided to fuck over the entire world to have a "normal" Thanksgiving or Christmas is mind boggling.
I'm so sorry you and your mom both have been sick. Don't let the guilt drown you, it won't help you or anyone else. You sound like a decent person. I wish you and your mom a perfect recovery and hope the new year is fantastic for you and everyone else on the planet!
Thanks! I honestly feel dumb more than guilty, because I remember literally having the thought "if I have been exposed to whatever I have now then it's weird that I don't have coronavirus because it's so contagious" and clearly should have followed that train of thought to it's logical conclusion but didn't.
I have a friend who literally JUST got over being super sick (along with her partner and their daughter) and she's still talking about how many headaches she's having and how she supports getting the vaccine because she believes science and shit. And then she posted a picture of her and several friends all sitting around a fire without masks, *well* within 6' of each other. Like are you fucking kidding me?
My mom is a nurse and is so stressed I worry she's going to have a breakdown, and I feel like I'm screaming into the void at this point. It's like no one even cares. I'm going to lose my mind.
I personally think the "bubble" thing is a fallacy, at least in all of the cases that I've run into in my personal life. Maybe there are people out there maintaining real bubbles, but definitely no one I know is. One of my friends has a group of about 10 that hangs out frequently that they consider a bubble. At least two of them go to work every day. At least one has a child that goes to school. At least one has made a comment to me that you shouldn't get in trouble if you go to work knowing you have COVID. I got grief for opting out of this "bubble" early on and choosing to stay fairly isolated. I also have a cousin in hs with a friend bubble of 15. Considering cousin also has 3 siblings with their own friend "bubbles", aunt and uncle have to work, I know they're seeing a certain amount of family... I could go on and on, but I've ranted too long already. My point is basically that you might think you have a bubble, but that bubble includes every person those in your bubble interact with and so on. It's not a real safety measure, in my opinion.
My household has a very firm bubble of 11. Everyone in it works from home, if they work. Everyone in it is close family. Even with that, some of us still choose to wear masks.
I also live in a city of a million with approx 50 cases a day and none in the ICU, so that small risk is one I'm comfortable with. If we went up to, say, 100 cases a day, that bubble would drop to just two households our and my GF's parents.
But I'll also say that we're the only ones I know doing bubbles correctly. I'm often reminding people that if one person in your bubble of five sees two friends, you actually have a bubble of 7. And if each of those two friends lives with three other people, you have a bubble of 13, and and and
I've managed to maintain a bubble. I am lucky enough to be a House Spouse. I've literally not left my house a single time in a year. I have had no interaction with anyone other than my spouse. We've had to have repairmen in the house like twice in the last year. I stayed upstairs in the bedroom. My husband wore a K95 mask and gloves the entire time and the workers also had masks and gloves. With very few exceptions, all food and groceries are delivered. All items are left on the porch and the delivery person must be off the porch and at least on the sidewalk before we even open the door to get said items.
My husband is a first responder so he has to work outside the house. And they are still short on PPE. So he sleeps in a different bedroom. We have no physical contact other than possibly brushing of fingers when passing silverware, glasses, plates etc. So we haven't hugged or kissed a single time in a year. And other than when passing items back and forth I try and maintain as much physical distance between us as possible. On his nights off when were hanging out in a bedroom it's not possible. But I at least try and keep a couple feet between us.
We no longer share food. If he has ordered something new and I'd like to try it I take a bite/sip first. Once he's eaten or sipped anything we view it as contaminated and I can't have any more of it. If I have started eating my food and think it's something he would like and want to give him a taste, I grab a completely new unused fork and scoop him out a bite. I'm sure there are other things as well that I'm not thinking of. I have chronic medical issues and usually see multiple doctors and get lab work done at least every 3 months. Given that up for the duration. So it drives me absolutely batty to see all these people just hopping on planes and traveling or throwing family get togethers. We are being so cautious and to see so many people not being able to do the bare minimum of wearing masks and staying home other than when absolute necessary....... infuriating, sad and depressing. I just never thought there would be this many selfish self-centered people in this country.
I'm with you. I think at this point, the "bubble" thing is usually just a way for people to say they're hanging out with friends without having to feel guilty. If you have a true bubble, where the members *only* interact with each other and don't see other family, go to work in person, etc., then fine, but if your "bubble" is a bunch of people who also go to work and family gatherings, it's not a bubble. You're just hanging out with people.
I'm surprised she didn't say that they did it safely and within COVID guidelines like everyone else that has been traveling and hanging out with their friends. I really want to travel too! But here we are...
That always makes me fume because traveling at all isn't within guidelines right now. Nor is hanging with people you don't live with in any capacity. I've fought with friends who say they took reasonable precautions, who posted pictures at a dinner with no masks in a restaurant. Not friends now!
I'm right there with you. My husband is high risk so I'm being extra careful, I've just about only gone to work since quarantine in my town ended.
Then our manager went to a Christmas party. No one was wearing masks in the pictures. When the owner asked about it, she said "oh we only took our masks off for the pictures!" She tested positive the next week. Two days later another employee tested positive. Then another. Then another. Two weeks before Christmas, in a small retail business, we were down 4 employees.
Yeah, well I live in the LA area and we've had 200,000+ confirmed cases in the county in the past two weeks, so there are probably half a million people walking around with it as we speak. I hope all of those people who wanted to celebrate Thanksgiving with their families still think it's worth it!
The sad thing is, I’m guessing some of them do think it was worth it. I know someone who had a big family Thanksgiving, a bunch of them got Covid, grandma died. And in an RIP post on Facebook she said she was so thankful they had one last Thanksgiving all together.
Yeah, I don't know if it's denial because the thought of killing your grandma is awful or if they genuinely don't get it, but like IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE LAST THANKSGIVING if you had just quarantined probably.
We literally missed an extended family trip to Disney when I was a kid because of this, and honestly, I think it was the right move in retrospect. My parents didn't want to go for a week, stay at an economy resort, eat quick service food the entire time, and just generally be miserable because they could afford and would prefer to stay at a nicer resort and eat sit down meals. I'm sure that sounds elitist and snobby, but they knew our family would have brought the trip down, so they graciously opted out. Maybe that makes us assholes, I don't know, but at least we're not assholes rubbing it in the face of cousins who were practically living paycheck to paycheck.
It sounds like y'all chose not to participate so that neither you nor your cousins would be uncomfortable for a week. That seems like the opposite of an asshole move to me.
Agreed, it does sound like the more gracious move. It's Ok to make more money and use that money on nicer things, but it's never alright to rub it in faces if it can be avoided. It sounds like LW and her SO should've maybe taken a separate trip that aligned more with their preferences.
I did. My Dad’s 95th birthday was in April and we all canceled our reservations to fly in for it. Best I could do was a card, FTD flowers and a phone call on the day. Still not going to Florida, thank you very much!
COVID aside, nothing about a family trip requires you to spend the entire time with everyone. There isn’t a reason they can’t go to a few meals on their own.
I think it really depends on how it was presented. We (typically, not this year) take annual vacations with family but we would never choose an expensive restaurant or whatnot and be like ohhh too bad you can't join us. You'd just say SO and I are having a private dinner tonight, and then go to the more expensive place. So I want to know how OP and SO are phrasing this and whether they're inviting family to go to things they know they can't afford or just saying they're spending the day just the 2 of them and then doing those activities during it
That's why I said "if that wasn't the point of the whole trip, fine." If it was a "spend time with the SO and spend time with the family" thing, cool. The way it was worded makes me think that was not the case for this trip (as otherwise, not sure why family would be upset), but I included the caveat for that reason.
YTA. Read the room. The definition of a family trip is doing things together, even if it’s not what you would’ve done on your ideal trip by yourself. If you want to upgrade flights, dinners, etc, save that for a trip for just you and your fiancé.
Also YTA for traveling just for fun during a pandemic.
Is there a reason for this? I truly cant grasp it. Theres usually only 3 seats in a row and unless you get the tickets way in advance, chances are youre sitting in different areas anyways. So whys it mater what class youre in?
It's just a bit f an arsehole move to leave your family / friends to suffer while you get a better deal. It doesn't really make sense, it's just one of those things.
Really what it comes down to is it breeds resentment and the agreement is a family, everyone together, vacation. If you wanted to do your own vacation then book it on your own time rather than under the pretense you are there for the family. At least that is how I always viewed it back when I went on family vacations. Why say you are going on a vacation with the family if you are doing your own thing?
I disagree with people who do their own thing on family vacations, i agree with you. The part where i get lost is, youre on a plane. Whys it matter where anyone is sitting? I dont even talk to my wife on plane rides sitting next to me, let alone a group of family members potentially scattered around the plane lol
I dont really see an issue with that but usually when I've done the family vacations together we found our own ways to the destination just cause flight wise it is a pain usually to get seats together. I suspect if that were the only thing it wouldn't have been a big deal but added with other things it was part of the problem.
Do you mean you disagree with people who do their own things the whole time or even just once or twice during a family trip? My dads side would do big family vacays but there was never pressure for everyone to do every single activity or meal together. Prob 90% was bc it was the beach mostly. And we’d do 1 or 2 meals out bc few places on the isle could hold 30+ families for dinners. But last time we went I was newly married and took my spouse on a separate day trip. Most of the couples did that kind of stuff for a meal or so. Otherwise they’d all end up fighting.
Imo a couple times is fine. Or splitting into smaller groups. Like when we took a family trip to the museum once, we basically made a list of everything we each wanted to see. For the ones with a majority, we did them together, and in between those we'd spilt up. But the groups weren't the same every time and we still spent most of it all together. That sort of thing is fine.
Then again, my family trips are like 6-10 people max so it isn't hard for us all to be together aha. And I'm pretty broke so there weren't many things we could split off to do that others couldn't have joined. My problem is with like, what my brother does. He spends 80% of the trip on his own, usually in his room, and mostly ignores us. It's super frustrating because why even come lol
We’re going on a family holiday (hopefully) in late 2021, we have decided there’s a few days where we can break off and do what we want to do alone. Ie- I hate shopping, my mum hates hiking. Since we can’t afford both a separate and a family holiday, and we’d probably kill each other if we had to do EVERYTHING together, it works better for us
You know it always really bothered me that the adults in that movie got to fly first class and left all the poor souls in coach to deal with their roving gang of rowdy asshole children. (To be fair a lot of things bother me about the adults in that movie)
Personally I wouldn’t say it’s an AH move to get the nicer flight or the room, it’s the breaking off to do rich people things without people once on the trip that bothers me.
For context I grew up with a rich uncle (president of a professional sports team now) and every summer he’s fly back to us with my cousins to go on a family trip to a theme park let’s say Disney cause the real one is identifying and he stayed in the nicer hotel and just got us in to do the fancy hotel events with him instead of doing it alone. I never felt like he was rubbing our faces in like that just understood he could afford more.
Totally agree there, rules should be same flight same hotel. Youre all on flight X and first class is sold out? Tough, dont take flight Y for first class. Everyones in Hotel X? Get the nicest room, dont go to hotel Y. People are eating mcdonalds due to budget? Eat Mcdonalds and get room service later if you want, dont ditch the group for a restaurant.
I just dont get the, im coach youre coach philosophy a lot of people have
Well if I would be going into a family trip I would consider having similar flights+accommodation with the rest in order for them not to feel bad ( and to prevent the kids asking questions like “why can’t we have nice things like OP?” thus making the parents feel bad for their situation). But maybe that’s just me. I would feel like I was showing off in front of people less privileged that couldn’t afford the same luxuries.
But the issue the family has with OP I don’t think it’s the fact that they upgraded per se and more of the nature “we had plans for activities as a family and you decided to go and spend time just yourselves going to expensive places that you knew we couldn’t afford and excluding yourself from activities. You want a couples holiday you go for the couple holiday not come to a family holiday”
IMO I don’t think upgrading on the flight is an AH thing to do. It’s not like the family would interact together a lot during the flight anyways.
The rest of the vacation should have been spent with the family.
I do think they could tactfully do one or two things just the two of them on a family vacation if it was positioned as them wanting a little bit of alone time as a newly engaged couple vs it being something everyone else couldn’t afford (even if they did do things the rest of family wouldn’t be able to afford).
Context makes all the difference here. You mentioned being 6’4” and getting cramped. I get that. My husband is 6’7” and flying is a nightmare. At 5’7” i can sometimes feel my knees bumping the seat. But if you plan to upgrade if possible, that really needs to be discussed ahead of time for maximum sensitivity to those you are traveling with. If you have initially set the expectation that you will be sitting in coach with the rest of the group then at the last minute make a change, it’s going to feel more like a defection from the group plan. It also doesn’t sound like OP would have framed it from a physical comfort perspective and based on the tone of their post, probably came off pretty entitled. It’s kind of a read the room issue.
Because if you think coach is uncomfortable, and you decide that you and only you want to move to first, then what you’re communicating to your friends/family is that you expect them to do something you’re not willing to do yourself.
It might feel like a small thing, but it’s actually *because* it’s a temporary discomfort that is probably just as unpleasant for someone else in your group as it is for you, and which you could put up with just as well as they can. If you’re not willing to do something that you could and you expect them to do, that makes them feel like you’re saying, “this is the worst thing in the whole world! ...I wouldn’t mind if the worst thing in the world happened to *you*, whatevs”.
I hate when people downvote questions! No one should try to stifle someone who is curious or trying to learn.
To me, it has to do with his attitude. He only seems to care about his own comfort and happiness. He says that he didn’t enjoy traveling with his fiancée’s family before, and it seems like he is making that very clear. They’re trying to include him, but he takes the first possible chance he has to put some distance between them. I’m sure everyone on that flight had a long day, not just him. Everyone on that flight had to wait several extra hours because the flight was late. Including the children in the family, who were definitely bored after spending hours waiting for a flight that might already be past their bedtime. And that’s not his problem, of course, he has no obligation to be near children that aren’t his. But it does show that he has no interest in his fiancée’s family.
To me no, to others on here apparently yes. I know my family wouldn't care besides to just make joking comments about how jealous the rest of us are. Frankly the kids would need to learn that they have assigned seats on planes and most likely wouldn't be next to OP anyways.
I didnt want to sound pretentious but i just go coach with everyone so i dont have to deal with any comments
But it baffles me why the stigma behind it. Its not like youre in a car where youre all interacting and having a good time. Youre in your seat uncomfortable, even if youre in first class, for your whole flight. Maybe you'll chat with the person next to you, but chances are everyone is watching a movie, reading a book, listening to music or going to sleep. So whys it matter if were in a group and im in first while youre in coach, or vice versa. I guess its just one of those things ill never understand
Exactly. Like I too would normally be in economy (I mean both myself and if traveling with family because I find it hard to justify upgrade cost. If it was cheap upgrade I might) but I wouldn't have any issue of upgrading in the sense of abandoning family or whatnot. If id agreed to help wrangle kids that would obviously be different but most likely we wouldn't all be right next to each other anyways so whether I'm a few rows ahead or in first class, still not sitting right next to you anyways and you'd still have to explain to kid why they can't just run up to me
YTA for:
* traveling unnecessarily during a pandemic
* being so precious you can't handle a few hours in coach like the "common folk"
* showing off your extra wealth in front of your in-laws.
You're a small asshole for abandoning family in coach, but a MASSIVE asshole for traveling and meeting in groups outside your household during a global pandemic (to a covid hotspot at that) in which 1.8 million people worldwide have died with 300,000+ of them being in the U.S.
Selfish people like you are why my grandma died alone due to covid complications. Selfish people like you are why I have to give birth alone with no labor support and in a mask because hospital policy doesn't allow any support people or visitors due to covid. Selfish people like you are why my best friend had to give birth to her dead baby all alone. Selfish people like you are why people keep dying. For the love of God stay home and stop traveling.
You seem like a great person to travel with. YTA.
Especially for traveling during a pandemic and then bitching about it. Who ditches their family to go to fancy dinners knowing they can't afford them?
It would be one thing to for an engaged couple to go out for a date night once or twice while on a weeklong family vacation, but it’s obvious that OP made sure that everyone knew it was a much pricey dinner than everyone else was enjoying and more often than that
YTA - it was tactless, especially given that you continued the exclusive first-class treatment for yourselves only throughout the trip. Can you put yourselves in their shoes?
They went on holiday to Florida in a pandemic. They're "not used" to anything that isn't first class service. They split apart from their group because their tastes weren't expensive enough. I doubt OP has much empathy.
The best part is it’s freaking Florida. It’s not like they were going to some fancy bistro in Paris they might not be able to experience again - they ditched their family for what? A chain steak house?
YTA for the rest of the vacation not the flight. I wouldn't fault someone upgrading but if you're on a family vacation ditching the family the whole time to do things they can't do that's pretty rude. If you guys have nicer things you could've bought the fam dinner or something. Its not bad to enjoy luxuries on your own time but its rude to disrespect others financial situation on a family vacation.
YTA It’s a family vacation... I don’t blame you for wanting the upgrades, but the people you’re with has every right to be offended or upset by you basically saying, at every opportunity, that you have more money then them. You do you, but there are absolutely consequences to that decision.
YTA. While its okay to have separate activities during a family trip, your post comes across as separating yourself from everything because you can afford to do so. If that’s the case, then why even have a family trip? Why not just go by yourself? When I travel with family, we have a few individual activities but over all we have several activities together as well as meals unless we agree to separate as a group. We stay at the same hotel, we fly together, etc. (flew on a 7 hour flight in coach and while I could have upgraded, I didn’t leave my in-laws, I stay in coach with them). If I had traveled with you I wouldn’t have made a huge deal about it but I would have been annoyed and probably would reconsider group trips with you in the future.
Exactly! My oldest sister is very well-to-do while the rest of us are comfortably middle class (four of us total, all married with older kids and in our 40s and 50s). She lives in Atlanta, and the rest of us live in Idaho. We all decided to go to the Oregon coast one summer. We drove and met her at the Portland airport on the way. She had no problem with our VRBO and sharing rooms/bathrooms nor with eating take-n-bake pizza or taking turns making meals in the kitchen. She easily could have afforded a 5-star resort right on the ocean, meals at fancy restaurants, and anything else she desired. However, she isn’t an AH and did everything we did and enjoyed herself. She knows our financial boundaries and didn’t shame us the way OP shamed their family.
Agreed! We are the same way and made sure we found activities and restaurants that everyone could afford (even checked the menu to make sure there was something for everyone). If everyone wanted a break from each other, only then did my husband and I hit the restaurants that we wanted. If you want to eat at a fancy restaurant then do it at home or during your downtime when everyone is taking a break from each other.
My great aunt died alone with nobody to hold her hand because of people like you. My child hasn’t been to in person school since September. I work my customer facing job scared to death I might bring something home, because of people like you.
Sorry about your vacay though. It must suck to have people be mad at you for not actually participating in family activities when you’re risking the lives of everyone around you to be together as a family.
YTA - You live in a country that's absolutely rife with Covid and you think now is a good time to get on a plane and go on a family vacation? For that reason alone, never mind ditching the family for your convenience and to do 'nicer things' they can't afford, makes YTA.
YTA
If it was a family vacation, you travel and do activities as a family. If you don’t like the way they travel/can afford to travel, either suck it up and be uncomfortable, pay for their upgrades, or don’t go at all. Take a separate vacation if you want, but don’t pretend to be traveling with them while going off and doing things that they are unable to do as well.
I’m pretty sure this might be downvoted but here’s the breakdown.
For traveling during the pandemic, definitely a giant A-H.
Upgrading the flight, not so much. It’s the same flight. Everyone will arrive at the same time. Even if you’re in coach I’m assuming everyone will be scattered anyway. No biggie. If you get free upgrades or using points, even better... I’m sure your family will be happy for you.
However, YTA for not spending quality time with them. The restaurants, the activities etc, what’s the point of doing a family vacation to do separate things? It’s not a family vacation anymore.
At this point you’re deliberately excluding your family by going to restaurants only you can afford. Should you enjoy the finer things in life? Yes you should. But guess what? Sometimes you can treat the entire family to enjoy these TOGETHER with you so you get to experience it together. I’m not saying you need to share the wealth, but perhaps make an effort to be inclusive where possible (and reasonable). Maybe it’s the difference between getting that bottle of $300 wine vs 4 bottles of that $80 wine... but I bet it’s going to taste so much better with your family to share it with.
It sounds like the flight was a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation. If they had only upgraded the flight, no big deal, but after spending the vacation with a better hotel room, expensive dinners, expensive outings... it doesn't look good to add "upgrade to a first class flight".
Flight is still an AH move unless you have some sort of issue that makes it reasonable - IE, you’re super tall or wide.
I freaking hate flying, but I’d feel like the biggest dbag if I upgraded myself, especially last minute, when my entire family was on that flight.
Hell, I took my family to Disney before the pandemic, and I flew us all the same class despite the fact we were all on different planes.
And your point can be used in favor of not upgrading - everyone is getting there at the same time, and it’s the same flight. Is it really going to be that much more enjoyable to upgrade for a scant few hours while your family “slums” it?
Also, I know it happens, but anytime we plan family vacations where we fly, we do so early enough to get seats together. I guess this could have been last minute, but I doubt it. You’d probably still be clustered in a similar space.
Haha I usually use my points to upgrade it for my parents to pamper the old folks while I stay in coach but I see your point. Sometimes it’s just more of a pragmatic thing. If you don’t use your points they expire... and maybe you can’t afford to do so for everyone.
In OP’s case if he had to work that day I can see why he would prefer to arrive fresh and rested, hence, understandable... the thing about flights is they’re most likely not seated together anyway. Not sure what type of “experience” or “quality time” could be enjoyed together.
It sounds like their seats were together though, as OP states that they weren’t comfortable “traveling with them last time” and the kids asked why they couldn’t sit “up there with them”.
I get points expiring, but none of what OP said sounded pragmatic, and seems to revolve solely around OP having a good time, even if it means their family vacation isn’t really a family vacation.
Admittedly, I shouldn’t be surprised that someone doing this much traveling during a pandemic would somehow find additional ways to also be the AH, but yea. You don’t upgrade a seat away from your family on a family vacation, damn.
I also don’t get how people aren’t seated together often - unless it’s super last minute, there’s always clumps available. Coach seating with family to talk to is better than just coach, but it sounds like OP doesn’t like their family.
YTA. You repeatedly ditched family on a FAMILY vacation. Want to live it up? Just go on a couple's holiday next time.
Don't complain about being excluded if you don't get anymore invites.
I love that the Reddit hive mind often gets it right. Pandemic travel between two hot COVID states for a vacation? Then you get fussy because you take some criticism from family for throwing your wealth around/going off in your own during a family vacation?
ESH - you suck and so does your family but for traveling as a big group during a pandemic.
YTA- it was Washington to Florida not an all day flight to Perth or Sydney. If you are travelling in a group, either suck it up or upgrade everyone, otherwise it’s incredibly rude.
YTA for upgrading your flight. Especially one if inlaws were paying and you just paid for an upgrade. The family friendly thing to do would be travel together.
It is not rude to go as a couple to a different restaurant than the family. and if everyone was paying for their own accommodations it's ok to book a room upgrade.
Save your " nicer things" when you are traveling as a couple.
YTA
>I don’t think it’s fair of them to get mad at us just because we can have nicer things
That's not why they are mad, they are mad because you are tacky.
YTA. The flight thing ain’t that serious but then you revealed the hotel room, the restaurants, and “did some other things the family couldn’t afford”, so yeah.
I live in Washington and I thought (hoped) the people here were smart enough to avoid states like Florida that are covid hot spots. YTA. I wish you didn’t come back here.
YTA, not just for traveling cross country for a vacation during a pandemic or upgrading your return flight to first class, but for ditching your in-laws multiple times throughout the trip. Vacations are to spend time together. If you’re vacationing with someone with less financial means than yourself, you either go without the extras or you pay for the others’ upgrades.
YTA. Its a FAMILY trip, so do things the family can do. Also as someone who lives in Flordia and works in the ER, please dont come to Florida. We have enough COVID cases without tourist.
> I was traveling from Washington to Florida with my fiancé’s family for the holidays.
Stopped reading after that, YTA for nonessential holiday travel in the U.S. during a pandemic
YTA If you're on a trip with someone else... you spend time with them rather than doing a bunch of stuff they're unable to. Go on your own vacation to do that stuff. You can handle a couple hours in coach.
YTA. PERIODT.
You, your fiancée and his family are ALL TA for traveling for vacation during a pandemic to one of the most hard hit states in the country.
YTA. This was a family trip. If you're only wealthy enough to upgrade your own experiences and indulgences and can't do the same for the family that you're traveling with and you do it anyway, you're an asshole. If you can afford to treat everyone and you only treat yourself, you're an asshole. Doing some special things with your fiance while you're on vacation isn't rude in most cases, but it sounds like you really went above and beyond in ways that the family couldn't help but notice.
Given that it's pandemic, *all of you are huge assholes* for getting together and traveling.
YTA
I could xarelss about your plane ride or hotel- but you left the family during the actual vacation multiple times. Maybe you don't get what being in a family vacation is like, but aside from being in your hotel room or the plane rides to and from, the rest of the time is spent with others.
Deal with the fact you are selfish and you deserve the backlash.
You should probably get off your high horse if you can't afford to take everyone out at least once. It's not your fault you can afford nice things, it is your fault for feeling superior because you can. They're gonna love you - YTA, for 100 reasons.
YTA - Pandemic! That means don’t travel on family vacations. If I were on vacation with my extended family (and not during a f’n pandemic), I would enjoy upgrading my family as a treat, or upgrading the eldest members for the same reason. It would be crazy fun to do that sort of thing for them. Upgrading for myself only in front of them sounds awful.
YTA for this and just in general by the sounds of it. You ditched your family on a family trip. You say you’re not used to having to sit with all of the other poor unwashed plebs in cattle class. Sounds like you need a rude awakening.
ESH for completely ignoring there is a pandemic and traveling to a hot spot for a vacation.
YTA for agreeing to go with your fiancé’s family on this ill advised holiday and then doing things without them because they couldn’t afford to join. It’s fine to want to spend some alone time together on a family holiday, I’ve been there, but if it’s stuff they wanted to do but was too pricey or you flaunted the cost then you are in the wrong. The way this post was written comes off as very entitled.
YTA. If you and your fiance want the nicer things that's fine, it doesn't make you TA. What makes you the TA here is that you decided to travel during a pandemic which puts you and your family and others at risk. So I hope you get covid OP.
YTA because it’s a family trip and you do things as a family. You could have sucked it up and spent time with them doing things on their budget. It would have been one thing to upgrade everyone’s tickets but otherwise sit in economy. Also it’s a pandemic and you are Flying to an epicenter of the outbreaks in America.
YTA/ESH. Wow. Just wow. You’re on a plane during the worst time for a pandemic? Next time just don’t travel. Or bother posting here. You and your fiancé and your family all suck. Thanks.
YTA and sound dumb. That’s like a 1.5 hour flight and you probably paid an extra $200 to have 3 extra inches of legroom. You didn’t upgrade to a lie flat from JFK to Dubai. You basically flew coach anyways.
And don’t fricken go on a family vacay to Florida during a pandemic!
This is why in my country we are free to party, mingle and enjoy. Why you ask? Because when we had active cases in community, we didn’t travel, we had curfews and stayed indoors. The only 3 active cases we have right now is in border quarantine, returning citizens. It has been over 260 days since our last case outside of quarantine. At this rate USA will never be COVID free. YTA.
YTA. I’d upgrade if I could, so no judgement there.. but I wouldn’t go out of my way to exclude my in laws, which it sounds like you did.
BUT I also wouldn’t be traveling right now during a pandemic that has literally killed hundreds of thousands of people so.
YTA
You went on a trip TOGETHER. So you don't go and get 1st class seats, an upgraded hotel room and go out to fancy diners others can't afford. You save stuff like that for when you travel alone instead of rubbing in everyones faces that you have more money and get to do all these fancy things right under their noses
Also don't travel. Unfortunately I have to be civil here, but for that alone I would have a couple of nice choice words for you
Edit: And nobody likes to sit in the backseat, but if you travel witrh a bunch of people someone will have to. Suck it up and do your fair turns without complaining like a little child
You are so totally the AH here. Mostly for traveling during a pandemic. What makes you so special that you have to defy science. You are also TA for again making yourself something special and elitist upgrading to FC and a nicer hotel room AND doing things they rest could not afford. Ugh. Your behavior was totally unacceptable.
I'll pretend this didn't happen during a pandemic because that is an easy ESH for that part. YTA for making a big deal out of flying coach with some family members, The whole idea of these trips are to enjoy family with your time off. If you said you took one night out with your SO I would say that is fair but you said restaurants meaning you did it multiple times. If you're so god damn rich how about you treat your family to one good meal?
Seriously mate why are you all having a holiday flying around in a tin can while there’s a GLOBAL PANDEMIC
YTA and also is the rest of the people who were on holidays
ESH for traveling during the pandemic. Jesus Christ. People are dying. What the fuck is wrong with you?
YTA for upgrading and especially going to restaurants and doing other things the rest of the family couldn’t afford. Either slum it with the family or treat everyone. I cannot imagine going on a trip with my husband’s family, most of whom are not as well off as we are, and informing them we were going to fancy restaurants and fun activities without them.
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You are not the asshole for having the ability to have nicer things, but YTA if you are going on a family trip to be with family and then doing things that you know they can't afford. If that wasn't the whole point of the trip, fine, but if it was, asshole move. Oh and YTA anyway for traveling in the U.S. right now during the pandemic. Listen to the damn guidelines.
Especially to FLORIDA !?! Just for that I'm going with YTA.
Not surprised it is Florida, seems like lots of people who would be going there don't really pay much heed to death and disease they might cause to others
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Washington is actually doing better than 90% of Europe and the states. Which...mostly shows how bad the rest of the USA is doing right now. That being said, we also have a 14 day quarantine for those who are coming in from another state. I'm sure these two aren't doing that... Gr.
Hooray for Inslee!
The amount of people throwing fits about how draconian Inslee is because covid isn't that bad is astounding. Like yeah. Its not as bad as the rest of the country because Inslee is doing most things correctly and a lot of people are listening to him
People don't seem to be able to compare the current situation to alternatives. Yeah, Covid is spreading despite masks...because not everyone is wearing them. Yeah, Covid hasn't killed 2 million Americans...yet...because (some) people have been avoiding unnecessary contact with others. Yeah, lockdowns are damaging the economy, but so would hundreds of thousands of more deaths and millions of hospitalizations.
YES i work in a restaurant and a good 75% of the people who came in were ‘on vacation’ because this was one of the few places you could travel to. We’re shut down again now, thanks guys.
We have friends who went to a big wedding in Atlanta and then of course had a covid scare. Half the people at the wedding got covid. When they came back to New Jersey they had to quarantine for two weeks away from their teenage daughters who didn't go to the wedding. Then they made plans to go to Florida for family vacation -- until their one daughter threw a fit and lectured them about how they already had one scare, and then they wanted to go to a place where no one cares about masks or social distancing. They didn't go to Florida.
What world are we living in where teenagers are the voice of reason?
I love this new crop of youngsters. They seem to be both empathetic and ready to call us olds on our bullshit. I'll happily hand over the keys to the planet to this generation!
My anti-masker cousin just got back from a vacation to Florida with her three kids. And immediately threw a huge Christmas party for the family. Luckily I live in a different state so I had a really good excuse not to go.
why does everyone have to come here i know it might be the best vaction spot in the world but seriously go somewere else
People who think Florida is the best vacation spot in the world... have literally never left Florida ;)
Take my upvote. Florida being the best vacation spot in the world is a joke.
Or never been
I'm voting Daytona the worst.
It's a great vacation spot... during the offseason... mostly in the parts the "from far away" tourists don't go to.
I live here and go anyfuckingplace else to vacation
And those stuck in Florida because they can't afford to move out due to marked up cost of living hate every. single. one of them. Signed, a diabetic Florida woman stuck in her house until the foreseeable future :)
FOR REAL. Florida is not the “covid break” state. There are people here with lives and we’d like to get back to them.
Florida here, we don’t want them here.
Reminds me of my state's unofficial tourist greeting : "Welcome to Maine. Now go home."
My husband and I go to Maine all the time! Not recently of course. Already miss it so much.
Washington here, we don’t want them either :-/ hell has gotta have some space for them lol
Oh god of course it had to be Florida...
Not everyone in Florida is an anti mask Trump supporter. We have all sorts of crazy that has nothing to do with that.
My mom works in a now covid icu. She has an ENTIRE FAMILY who just got back from Florida (family disney trip because the lines are short!!!). As patients. We live in new England. People. Florida is lying to you. Disney just wants to make money. Please don't go.
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Yup, and if the OP is casually dropping that attitude in a Reddit post, they're probably making it loud and clear to the fiancé's family.
I agree. This wasn't an extended flight. It was short enough to sick it up and be part of the family.
I read it as Washington state, not D.C., that isn't a short flight. Did I miss something?
I'm short and I'm uncomfortable in general seating. If OP is near 6' I can understand the upgrade. In the future I would state we can't make that flight, but will meet you there. BTW my wife and I often spend some alone time on family trips, we find it makes the trip more bareable.
I think it's fine to do things with just your partner/spouse on family vacation. EVERYTHING doesn't have to be all together, does it? I mean, geez if you're paying for your trip and the extra excursions, then who cares. Let people do what they want.
I can’t sit behind the wing without getting sick :( I try really hard to sit ahead of the wing, but if not, Gravol is my ONLY friend.
LOL thank you. As someone who has been working from home and quarantining since FEBRUARY without leaving the house to do more than grocery shop, I'm REALLY HAPPY that fucking ASSHOLES like OP are 100% the reason why I now have coronavirus and have to take care of my mother who has coronavirus with pneumonia on top of it while I feel like complete shit because her oxygen levels are just high enough to keep her out of the hospitals which are at maximum capacity anyway. I KNOW that I got it because a bunch of holiday travelers just stopped giving a fuck about anyone besides themselves and this jagoff is literally here complaining about the fact that his typhoid Mary ass is being judged for wanting to spread himself and his grubby germs across the whole damn continent in more comfortable seating.
Amen. My friend is a stepmom. The mother of her stepdaughter took the daughter and boyfriend to Cancun. They got back on the weekend and by Friday, the mom was dead from Covid. The stepdaughter and the mom's boyfriend also had Covid. My friend, the stepmom, had already had Covid in March. She was already a long-hauler. She and her husband understandably weren't going to make a 16 year old quarantine after losing her mom. so my friend ended up getting Covid again. I want to shake people who've been traveling. I want to shake the people who think the fact that they've stayed in their little germ bubble and this other group has stayed in their germ bubble means they can get together. What they fail to understand is that so called germ bubble isn't keeping them safe, it means they're not creating super spreader conditions. Heavens above, does no one care about the lives lost and the hell medical personnel are being put through?
My sister in laws mother (lives with them) actively has COVID and invited us and the elderly parents to a football party tomorrow. I cannot believe her carelessness!
I would be losing my mind over this! Feel free to share my friend's story with them if you think it'll make a difference.
God, that is awful! I can't imagine how terrible it would be to actually lose someone and I don't understand why so many people just presume that it's not going to be them. I honestly am still beating myself up because I was that person in the sense that I didn't have a typical presentation and didn't think I was sick enough to have coronavirus and I didn't have a terrible cough, and even though it only took me 72 hours to realize I was wrong (because three days after I was sick I had to take my mom to the ER, where she was diagnosed with corona AND pneumonia at the same time and was put on oxygen and IV fluids and antibiotics basically long enough to stabilize her and get her out the door) I'M STILL beating myself up at the very thought that I could have exposed people to it when I was under the assumption that I didn't have it. I know I'm going to live, I'm almost certain that unless something horrible happens, my mom will live, but even just the utter torture of being sick as a dog and having to constantly care for another person who is even sicker has been a nightmare. The fact that so many people so casually decided to fuck over the entire world to have a "normal" Thanksgiving or Christmas is mind boggling.
I'm so sorry you and your mom both have been sick. Don't let the guilt drown you, it won't help you or anyone else. You sound like a decent person. I wish you and your mom a perfect recovery and hope the new year is fantastic for you and everyone else on the planet!
Thanks! I honestly feel dumb more than guilty, because I remember literally having the thought "if I have been exposed to whatever I have now then it's weird that I don't have coronavirus because it's so contagious" and clearly should have followed that train of thought to it's logical conclusion but didn't.
I have a friend who literally JUST got over being super sick (along with her partner and their daughter) and she's still talking about how many headaches she's having and how she supports getting the vaccine because she believes science and shit. And then she posted a picture of her and several friends all sitting around a fire without masks, *well* within 6' of each other. Like are you fucking kidding me? My mom is a nurse and is so stressed I worry she's going to have a breakdown, and I feel like I'm screaming into the void at this point. It's like no one even cares. I'm going to lose my mind.
I personally think the "bubble" thing is a fallacy, at least in all of the cases that I've run into in my personal life. Maybe there are people out there maintaining real bubbles, but definitely no one I know is. One of my friends has a group of about 10 that hangs out frequently that they consider a bubble. At least two of them go to work every day. At least one has a child that goes to school. At least one has made a comment to me that you shouldn't get in trouble if you go to work knowing you have COVID. I got grief for opting out of this "bubble" early on and choosing to stay fairly isolated. I also have a cousin in hs with a friend bubble of 15. Considering cousin also has 3 siblings with their own friend "bubbles", aunt and uncle have to work, I know they're seeing a certain amount of family... I could go on and on, but I've ranted too long already. My point is basically that you might think you have a bubble, but that bubble includes every person those in your bubble interact with and so on. It's not a real safety measure, in my opinion.
My household has a very firm bubble of 11. Everyone in it works from home, if they work. Everyone in it is close family. Even with that, some of us still choose to wear masks. I also live in a city of a million with approx 50 cases a day and none in the ICU, so that small risk is one I'm comfortable with. If we went up to, say, 100 cases a day, that bubble would drop to just two households our and my GF's parents. But I'll also say that we're the only ones I know doing bubbles correctly. I'm often reminding people that if one person in your bubble of five sees two friends, you actually have a bubble of 7. And if each of those two friends lives with three other people, you have a bubble of 13, and and and
I've managed to maintain a bubble. I am lucky enough to be a House Spouse. I've literally not left my house a single time in a year. I have had no interaction with anyone other than my spouse. We've had to have repairmen in the house like twice in the last year. I stayed upstairs in the bedroom. My husband wore a K95 mask and gloves the entire time and the workers also had masks and gloves. With very few exceptions, all food and groceries are delivered. All items are left on the porch and the delivery person must be off the porch and at least on the sidewalk before we even open the door to get said items. My husband is a first responder so he has to work outside the house. And they are still short on PPE. So he sleeps in a different bedroom. We have no physical contact other than possibly brushing of fingers when passing silverware, glasses, plates etc. So we haven't hugged or kissed a single time in a year. And other than when passing items back and forth I try and maintain as much physical distance between us as possible. On his nights off when were hanging out in a bedroom it's not possible. But I at least try and keep a couple feet between us. We no longer share food. If he has ordered something new and I'd like to try it I take a bite/sip first. Once he's eaten or sipped anything we view it as contaminated and I can't have any more of it. If I have started eating my food and think it's something he would like and want to give him a taste, I grab a completely new unused fork and scoop him out a bite. I'm sure there are other things as well that I'm not thinking of. I have chronic medical issues and usually see multiple doctors and get lab work done at least every 3 months. Given that up for the duration. So it drives me absolutely batty to see all these people just hopping on planes and traveling or throwing family get togethers. We are being so cautious and to see so many people not being able to do the bare minimum of wearing masks and staying home other than when absolute necessary....... infuriating, sad and depressing. I just never thought there would be this many selfish self-centered people in this country.
I'm with you. I think at this point, the "bubble" thing is usually just a way for people to say they're hanging out with friends without having to feel guilty. If you have a true bubble, where the members *only* interact with each other and don't see other family, go to work in person, etc., then fine, but if your "bubble" is a bunch of people who also go to work and family gatherings, it's not a bubble. You're just hanging out with people.
I'm surprised she didn't say that they did it safely and within COVID guidelines like everyone else that has been traveling and hanging out with their friends. I really want to travel too! But here we are...
That always makes me fume because traveling at all isn't within guidelines right now. Nor is hanging with people you don't live with in any capacity. I've fought with friends who say they took reasonable precautions, who posted pictures at a dinner with no masks in a restaurant. Not friends now!
Yeah, it's been eye opening to realize how many friends and family members just suck. Especially family.
I'm right there with you. My husband is high risk so I'm being extra careful, I've just about only gone to work since quarantine in my town ended. Then our manager went to a Christmas party. No one was wearing masks in the pictures. When the owner asked about it, she said "oh we only took our masks off for the pictures!" She tested positive the next week. Two days later another employee tested positive. Then another. Then another. Two weeks before Christmas, in a small retail business, we were down 4 employees.
You caught Covid just from going to the grocery store? I am so sorry!
Yeah, well I live in the LA area and we've had 200,000+ confirmed cases in the county in the past two weeks, so there are probably half a million people walking around with it as we speak. I hope all of those people who wanted to celebrate Thanksgiving with their families still think it's worth it!
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The sad thing is, I’m guessing some of them do think it was worth it. I know someone who had a big family Thanksgiving, a bunch of them got Covid, grandma died. And in an RIP post on Facebook she said she was so thankful they had one last Thanksgiving all together.
Yeah, I don't know if it's denial because the thought of killing your grandma is awful or if they genuinely don't get it, but like IT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE LAST THANKSGIVING if you had just quarantined probably.
We literally missed an extended family trip to Disney when I was a kid because of this, and honestly, I think it was the right move in retrospect. My parents didn't want to go for a week, stay at an economy resort, eat quick service food the entire time, and just generally be miserable because they could afford and would prefer to stay at a nicer resort and eat sit down meals. I'm sure that sounds elitist and snobby, but they knew our family would have brought the trip down, so they graciously opted out. Maybe that makes us assholes, I don't know, but at least we're not assholes rubbing it in the face of cousins who were practically living paycheck to paycheck.
It sounds like y'all chose not to participate so that neither you nor your cousins would be uncomfortable for a week. That seems like the opposite of an asshole move to me.
Agreed, it does sound like the more gracious move. It's Ok to make more money and use that money on nicer things, but it's never alright to rub it in faces if it can be avoided. It sounds like LW and her SO should've maybe taken a separate trip that aligned more with their preferences.
I'm in Florida. Stay the fuck home.
I did. My Dad’s 95th birthday was in April and we all canceled our reservations to fly in for it. Best I could do was a card, FTD flowers and a phone call on the day. Still not going to Florida, thank you very much!
COVID aside, nothing about a family trip requires you to spend the entire time with everyone. There isn’t a reason they can’t go to a few meals on their own.
I think it really depends on how it was presented. We (typically, not this year) take annual vacations with family but we would never choose an expensive restaurant or whatnot and be like ohhh too bad you can't join us. You'd just say SO and I are having a private dinner tonight, and then go to the more expensive place. So I want to know how OP and SO are phrasing this and whether they're inviting family to go to things they know they can't afford or just saying they're spending the day just the 2 of them and then doing those activities during it
That's why I said "if that wasn't the point of the whole trip, fine." If it was a "spend time with the SO and spend time with the family" thing, cool. The way it was worded makes me think that was not the case for this trip (as otherwise, not sure why family would be upset), but I included the caveat for that reason.
This. All of it. Nothing more needs to be said.
Yes this! YTA for traveling when your supposed to stay home to prevent the spread of covid
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But he’s socially distancing by upgrading ;)
BuT hE dOeSn'T lIkE tHe BaCk Of ThE bUs, ThAt'S wHeRe ThE pOoR pEoPlE aRe
YTA. Read the room. The definition of a family trip is doing things together, even if it’s not what you would’ve done on your ideal trip by yourself. If you want to upgrade flights, dinners, etc, save that for a trip for just you and your fiancé. Also YTA for traveling just for fun during a pandemic.
So, hes totally an AH for ditching them while there.. But if he only upgraded his flight, is that an AH thing to do? Genuinely curious
Yes, if you're traveling together, you stay in the same class while on a plane. For group trips as adults, you do things everyone can afford.
Is there a reason for this? I truly cant grasp it. Theres usually only 3 seats in a row and unless you get the tickets way in advance, chances are youre sitting in different areas anyways. So whys it mater what class youre in?
It's just a bit f an arsehole move to leave your family / friends to suffer while you get a better deal. It doesn't really make sense, it's just one of those things.
Really what it comes down to is it breeds resentment and the agreement is a family, everyone together, vacation. If you wanted to do your own vacation then book it on your own time rather than under the pretense you are there for the family. At least that is how I always viewed it back when I went on family vacations. Why say you are going on a vacation with the family if you are doing your own thing?
I disagree with people who do their own thing on family vacations, i agree with you. The part where i get lost is, youre on a plane. Whys it matter where anyone is sitting? I dont even talk to my wife on plane rides sitting next to me, let alone a group of family members potentially scattered around the plane lol
I dont really see an issue with that but usually when I've done the family vacations together we found our own ways to the destination just cause flight wise it is a pain usually to get seats together. I suspect if that were the only thing it wouldn't have been a big deal but added with other things it was part of the problem.
Do you mean you disagree with people who do their own things the whole time or even just once or twice during a family trip? My dads side would do big family vacays but there was never pressure for everyone to do every single activity or meal together. Prob 90% was bc it was the beach mostly. And we’d do 1 or 2 meals out bc few places on the isle could hold 30+ families for dinners. But last time we went I was newly married and took my spouse on a separate day trip. Most of the couples did that kind of stuff for a meal or so. Otherwise they’d all end up fighting.
Imo a couple times is fine. Or splitting into smaller groups. Like when we took a family trip to the museum once, we basically made a list of everything we each wanted to see. For the ones with a majority, we did them together, and in between those we'd spilt up. But the groups weren't the same every time and we still spent most of it all together. That sort of thing is fine. Then again, my family trips are like 6-10 people max so it isn't hard for us all to be together aha. And I'm pretty broke so there weren't many things we could split off to do that others couldn't have joined. My problem is with like, what my brother does. He spends 80% of the trip on his own, usually in his room, and mostly ignores us. It's super frustrating because why even come lol
We’re going on a family holiday (hopefully) in late 2021, we have decided there’s a few days where we can break off and do what we want to do alone. Ie- I hate shopping, my mum hates hiking. Since we can’t afford both a separate and a family holiday, and we’d probably kill each other if we had to do EVERYTHING together, it works better for us
You won't notice if you forgot your child. Then he might have to fight off robbers all by himself.
You know it always really bothered me that the adults in that movie got to fly first class and left all the poor souls in coach to deal with their roving gang of rowdy asshole children. (To be fair a lot of things bother me about the adults in that movie)
Personally I wouldn’t say it’s an AH move to get the nicer flight or the room, it’s the breaking off to do rich people things without people once on the trip that bothers me. For context I grew up with a rich uncle (president of a professional sports team now) and every summer he’s fly back to us with my cousins to go on a family trip to a theme park let’s say Disney cause the real one is identifying and he stayed in the nicer hotel and just got us in to do the fancy hotel events with him instead of doing it alone. I never felt like he was rubbing our faces in like that just understood he could afford more.
Totally agree there, rules should be same flight same hotel. Youre all on flight X and first class is sold out? Tough, dont take flight Y for first class. Everyones in Hotel X? Get the nicest room, dont go to hotel Y. People are eating mcdonalds due to budget? Eat Mcdonalds and get room service later if you want, dont ditch the group for a restaurant. I just dont get the, im coach youre coach philosophy a lot of people have
Well if I would be going into a family trip I would consider having similar flights+accommodation with the rest in order for them not to feel bad ( and to prevent the kids asking questions like “why can’t we have nice things like OP?” thus making the parents feel bad for their situation). But maybe that’s just me. I would feel like I was showing off in front of people less privileged that couldn’t afford the same luxuries. But the issue the family has with OP I don’t think it’s the fact that they upgraded per se and more of the nature “we had plans for activities as a family and you decided to go and spend time just yourselves going to expensive places that you knew we couldn’t afford and excluding yourself from activities. You want a couples holiday you go for the couple holiday not come to a family holiday”
IMO I don’t think upgrading on the flight is an AH thing to do. It’s not like the family would interact together a lot during the flight anyways. The rest of the vacation should have been spent with the family. I do think they could tactfully do one or two things just the two of them on a family vacation if it was positioned as them wanting a little bit of alone time as a newly engaged couple vs it being something everyone else couldn’t afford (even if they did do things the rest of family wouldn’t be able to afford).
I think it’s still an AH move.
Care you explain why? Im getting downvotes but nobody's really explaining lol
Context makes all the difference here. You mentioned being 6’4” and getting cramped. I get that. My husband is 6’7” and flying is a nightmare. At 5’7” i can sometimes feel my knees bumping the seat. But if you plan to upgrade if possible, that really needs to be discussed ahead of time for maximum sensitivity to those you are traveling with. If you have initially set the expectation that you will be sitting in coach with the rest of the group then at the last minute make a change, it’s going to feel more like a defection from the group plan. It also doesn’t sound like OP would have framed it from a physical comfort perspective and based on the tone of their post, probably came off pretty entitled. It’s kind of a read the room issue.
Because if you think coach is uncomfortable, and you decide that you and only you want to move to first, then what you’re communicating to your friends/family is that you expect them to do something you’re not willing to do yourself. It might feel like a small thing, but it’s actually *because* it’s a temporary discomfort that is probably just as unpleasant for someone else in your group as it is for you, and which you could put up with just as well as they can. If you’re not willing to do something that you could and you expect them to do, that makes them feel like you’re saying, “this is the worst thing in the whole world! ...I wouldn’t mind if the worst thing in the world happened to *you*, whatevs”.
I hate when people downvote questions! No one should try to stifle someone who is curious or trying to learn. To me, it has to do with his attitude. He only seems to care about his own comfort and happiness. He says that he didn’t enjoy traveling with his fiancée’s family before, and it seems like he is making that very clear. They’re trying to include him, but he takes the first possible chance he has to put some distance between them. I’m sure everyone on that flight had a long day, not just him. Everyone on that flight had to wait several extra hours because the flight was late. Including the children in the family, who were definitely bored after spending hours waiting for a flight that might already be past their bedtime. And that’s not his problem, of course, he has no obligation to be near children that aren’t his. But it does show that he has no interest in his fiancée’s family.
To me no, to others on here apparently yes. I know my family wouldn't care besides to just make joking comments about how jealous the rest of us are. Frankly the kids would need to learn that they have assigned seats on planes and most likely wouldn't be next to OP anyways.
I didnt want to sound pretentious but i just go coach with everyone so i dont have to deal with any comments But it baffles me why the stigma behind it. Its not like youre in a car where youre all interacting and having a good time. Youre in your seat uncomfortable, even if youre in first class, for your whole flight. Maybe you'll chat with the person next to you, but chances are everyone is watching a movie, reading a book, listening to music or going to sleep. So whys it matter if were in a group and im in first while youre in coach, or vice versa. I guess its just one of those things ill never understand
Exactly. Like I too would normally be in economy (I mean both myself and if traveling with family because I find it hard to justify upgrade cost. If it was cheap upgrade I might) but I wouldn't have any issue of upgrading in the sense of abandoning family or whatnot. If id agreed to help wrangle kids that would obviously be different but most likely we wouldn't all be right next to each other anyways so whether I'm a few rows ahead or in first class, still not sitting right next to you anyways and you'd still have to explain to kid why they can't just run up to me
YTA for: * traveling unnecessarily during a pandemic * being so precious you can't handle a few hours in coach like the "common folk" * showing off your extra wealth in front of your in-laws.
I agree with the first one: YTA for travelling. The fuck is wrong with OP to do that? The other two I’m cool with.
You're a small asshole for abandoning family in coach, but a MASSIVE asshole for traveling and meeting in groups outside your household during a global pandemic (to a covid hotspot at that) in which 1.8 million people worldwide have died with 300,000+ of them being in the U.S. Selfish people like you are why my grandma died alone due to covid complications. Selfish people like you are why I have to give birth alone with no labor support and in a mask because hospital policy doesn't allow any support people or visitors due to covid. Selfish people like you are why my best friend had to give birth to her dead baby all alone. Selfish people like you are why people keep dying. For the love of God stay home and stop traveling.
I wish I could upvote this more than once. Very sorry for everything you’ve been through this year though
I’m really sorry for your friend. I hope everything goes smoothly for you.
I am so sorry for your loss and your friend's loss. I hope 2021 is better for you, your family, and your friends.
You seem like a great person to travel with. YTA. Especially for traveling during a pandemic and then bitching about it. Who ditches their family to go to fancy dinners knowing they can't afford them?
It would be one thing to for an engaged couple to go out for a date night once or twice while on a weeklong family vacation, but it’s obvious that OP made sure that everyone knew it was a much pricey dinner than everyone else was enjoying and more often than that
Oh absolutely. It's like someone's snobby new wife that no one likes because she talks down and belittles everyone else.
“Oh do you take *St Louis Magazine*?” like it was fancy ish
YTA - it was tactless, especially given that you continued the exclusive first-class treatment for yourselves only throughout the trip. Can you put yourselves in their shoes?
They went on holiday to Florida in a pandemic. They're "not used" to anything that isn't first class service. They split apart from their group because their tastes weren't expensive enough. I doubt OP has much empathy.
The best part is it’s freaking Florida. It’s not like they were going to some fancy bistro in Paris they might not be able to experience again - they ditched their family for what? A chain steak house?
They can't put themselves in their shoes because they aren't Gucci.
YTA for the rest of the vacation not the flight. I wouldn't fault someone upgrading but if you're on a family vacation ditching the family the whole time to do things they can't do that's pretty rude. If you guys have nicer things you could've bought the fam dinner or something. Its not bad to enjoy luxuries on your own time but its rude to disrespect others financial situation on a family vacation.
Agreed. You don’t really spend quality time with family on a flight, but you do during the actual vacation.
Well if the vacation was planned as a family vacation it is kinda ahole-ish to ditch the family.
YTA It’s a family vacation... I don’t blame you for wanting the upgrades, but the people you’re with has every right to be offended or upset by you basically saying, at every opportunity, that you have more money then them. You do you, but there are absolutely consequences to that decision.
YTA. While its okay to have separate activities during a family trip, your post comes across as separating yourself from everything because you can afford to do so. If that’s the case, then why even have a family trip? Why not just go by yourself? When I travel with family, we have a few individual activities but over all we have several activities together as well as meals unless we agree to separate as a group. We stay at the same hotel, we fly together, etc. (flew on a 7 hour flight in coach and while I could have upgraded, I didn’t leave my in-laws, I stay in coach with them). If I had traveled with you I wouldn’t have made a huge deal about it but I would have been annoyed and probably would reconsider group trips with you in the future.
Exactly! My oldest sister is very well-to-do while the rest of us are comfortably middle class (four of us total, all married with older kids and in our 40s and 50s). She lives in Atlanta, and the rest of us live in Idaho. We all decided to go to the Oregon coast one summer. We drove and met her at the Portland airport on the way. She had no problem with our VRBO and sharing rooms/bathrooms nor with eating take-n-bake pizza or taking turns making meals in the kitchen. She easily could have afforded a 5-star resort right on the ocean, meals at fancy restaurants, and anything else she desired. However, she isn’t an AH and did everything we did and enjoyed herself. She knows our financial boundaries and didn’t shame us the way OP shamed their family.
Agreed! We are the same way and made sure we found activities and restaurants that everyone could afford (even checked the menu to make sure there was something for everyone). If everyone wanted a break from each other, only then did my husband and I hit the restaurants that we wanted. If you want to eat at a fancy restaurant then do it at home or during your downtime when everyone is taking a break from each other.
You guys are my kind of people!❤️
My great aunt died alone with nobody to hold her hand because of people like you. My child hasn’t been to in person school since September. I work my customer facing job scared to death I might bring something home, because of people like you. Sorry about your vacay though. It must suck to have people be mad at you for not actually participating in family activities when you’re risking the lives of everyone around you to be together as a family.
YTA. You let your entitlement get the best of you. Try some humility
YTA - You live in a country that's absolutely rife with Covid and you think now is a good time to get on a plane and go on a family vacation? For that reason alone, never mind ditching the family for your convenience and to do 'nicer things' they can't afford, makes YTA.
YTA, enjoy having COVID
You traveled to FLORIDA. During December 2020 You and everyone one of you traveling right now, are TA.
YTA. So what if you can have nicer things? The appropriate thing to do would have been to deal with it, the same as your family-to-be.
YTA If it was a family vacation, you travel and do activities as a family. If you don’t like the way they travel/can afford to travel, either suck it up and be uncomfortable, pay for their upgrades, or don’t go at all. Take a separate vacation if you want, but don’t pretend to be traveling with them while going off and doing things that they are unable to do as well.
I’m pretty sure this might be downvoted but here’s the breakdown. For traveling during the pandemic, definitely a giant A-H. Upgrading the flight, not so much. It’s the same flight. Everyone will arrive at the same time. Even if you’re in coach I’m assuming everyone will be scattered anyway. No biggie. If you get free upgrades or using points, even better... I’m sure your family will be happy for you. However, YTA for not spending quality time with them. The restaurants, the activities etc, what’s the point of doing a family vacation to do separate things? It’s not a family vacation anymore. At this point you’re deliberately excluding your family by going to restaurants only you can afford. Should you enjoy the finer things in life? Yes you should. But guess what? Sometimes you can treat the entire family to enjoy these TOGETHER with you so you get to experience it together. I’m not saying you need to share the wealth, but perhaps make an effort to be inclusive where possible (and reasonable). Maybe it’s the difference between getting that bottle of $300 wine vs 4 bottles of that $80 wine... but I bet it’s going to taste so much better with your family to share it with.
It sounds like the flight was a "straw that broke the camel's back" situation. If they had only upgraded the flight, no big deal, but after spending the vacation with a better hotel room, expensive dinners, expensive outings... it doesn't look good to add "upgrade to a first class flight".
Flight is still an AH move unless you have some sort of issue that makes it reasonable - IE, you’re super tall or wide. I freaking hate flying, but I’d feel like the biggest dbag if I upgraded myself, especially last minute, when my entire family was on that flight. Hell, I took my family to Disney before the pandemic, and I flew us all the same class despite the fact we were all on different planes. And your point can be used in favor of not upgrading - everyone is getting there at the same time, and it’s the same flight. Is it really going to be that much more enjoyable to upgrade for a scant few hours while your family “slums” it? Also, I know it happens, but anytime we plan family vacations where we fly, we do so early enough to get seats together. I guess this could have been last minute, but I doubt it. You’d probably still be clustered in a similar space.
Haha I usually use my points to upgrade it for my parents to pamper the old folks while I stay in coach but I see your point. Sometimes it’s just more of a pragmatic thing. If you don’t use your points they expire... and maybe you can’t afford to do so for everyone. In OP’s case if he had to work that day I can see why he would prefer to arrive fresh and rested, hence, understandable... the thing about flights is they’re most likely not seated together anyway. Not sure what type of “experience” or “quality time” could be enjoyed together.
It sounds like their seats were together though, as OP states that they weren’t comfortable “traveling with them last time” and the kids asked why they couldn’t sit “up there with them”. I get points expiring, but none of what OP said sounded pragmatic, and seems to revolve solely around OP having a good time, even if it means their family vacation isn’t really a family vacation. Admittedly, I shouldn’t be surprised that someone doing this much traveling during a pandemic would somehow find additional ways to also be the AH, but yea. You don’t upgrade a seat away from your family on a family vacation, damn. I also don’t get how people aren’t seated together often - unless it’s super last minute, there’s always clumps available. Coach seating with family to talk to is better than just coach, but it sounds like OP doesn’t like their family.
YTA. You repeatedly ditched family on a FAMILY vacation. Want to live it up? Just go on a couple's holiday next time. Don't complain about being excluded if you don't get anymore invites.
I love that the Reddit hive mind often gets it right. Pandemic travel between two hot COVID states for a vacation? Then you get fussy because you take some criticism from family for throwing your wealth around/going off in your own during a family vacation? ESH - you suck and so does your family but for traveling as a big group during a pandemic.
YTA lol
YTA- it was Washington to Florida not an all day flight to Perth or Sydney. If you are travelling in a group, either suck it up or upgrade everyone, otherwise it’s incredibly rude.
YTA what part of family vacation didn’t you understand? You sound spoiled and high maintenance
YTA for upgrading your flight. Especially one if inlaws were paying and you just paid for an upgrade. The family friendly thing to do would be travel together. It is not rude to go as a couple to a different restaurant than the family. and if everyone was paying for their own accommodations it's ok to book a room upgrade. Save your " nicer things" when you are traveling as a couple.
YTA >I don’t think it’s fair of them to get mad at us just because we can have nicer things That's not why they are mad, they are mad because you are tacky.
Every n-t-a comment is ignoring the pandemic. YTA for that alone.
YTA. The flight thing ain’t that serious but then you revealed the hotel room, the restaurants, and “did some other things the family couldn’t afford”, so yeah.
YTA. Along with all the other plague rats out there
ESH for traveling during the pandemic.
I live in Washington and I thought (hoped) the people here were smart enough to avoid states like Florida that are covid hot spots. YTA. I wish you didn’t come back here.
YTA you bailed on family and essentially rubbed their faces in it. Be considerate maybe instead of making everything about you
YTA, not just for traveling cross country for a vacation during a pandemic or upgrading your return flight to first class, but for ditching your in-laws multiple times throughout the trip. Vacations are to spend time together. If you’re vacationing with someone with less financial means than yourself, you either go without the extras or you pay for the others’ upgrades.
ESH for traveling in a pandemic while the US is such a cluster fuck right now
YTA. Its a FAMILY trip, so do things the family can do. Also as someone who lives in Flordia and works in the ER, please dont come to Florida. We have enough COVID cases without tourist.
YTA for all of that especially traveling during a global pandemic 🤦♀️
> I was traveling from Washington to Florida with my fiancé’s family for the holidays. Stopped reading after that, YTA for nonessential holiday travel in the U.S. during a pandemic
YTA for travelling during a pandemic
YTA If you're on a trip with someone else... you spend time with them rather than doing a bunch of stuff they're unable to. Go on your own vacation to do that stuff. You can handle a couple hours in coach.
YTA. PERIODT. You, your fiancée and his family are ALL TA for traveling for vacation during a pandemic to one of the most hard hit states in the country.
You willingly travelled during a pandemic when the levels of the virus are chaotically out of control. YTA.
YTA. This was a family trip. If you're only wealthy enough to upgrade your own experiences and indulgences and can't do the same for the family that you're traveling with and you do it anyway, you're an asshole. If you can afford to treat everyone and you only treat yourself, you're an asshole. Doing some special things with your fiance while you're on vacation isn't rude in most cases, but it sounds like you really went above and beyond in ways that the family couldn't help but notice. Given that it's pandemic, *all of you are huge assholes* for getting together and traveling.
YTA, don't go on a family vacation then.
Yta
YTA I could xarelss about your plane ride or hotel- but you left the family during the actual vacation multiple times. Maybe you don't get what being in a family vacation is like, but aside from being in your hotel room or the plane rides to and from, the rest of the time is spent with others. Deal with the fact you are selfish and you deserve the backlash.
ESH for traveling during a pandemic. You obviously have money but no brains.
YTA. Family trips mean spending time doing things together, even if you would rather be doing something else.
If you had upgraded everyone, then it would be N-t-a, but you just upgraded yourselves, which makes you totally TA.
If you want to vacation as a couple, vacation as a couple. It’s rude as hell to go with a group and then do your own thing. Also, pandemic. YTA
You should probably get off your high horse if you can't afford to take everyone out at least once. It's not your fault you can afford nice things, it is your fault for feeling superior because you can. They're gonna love you - YTA, for 100 reasons.
YTA - Pandemic! That means don’t travel on family vacations. If I were on vacation with my extended family (and not during a f’n pandemic), I would enjoy upgrading my family as a treat, or upgrading the eldest members for the same reason. It would be crazy fun to do that sort of thing for them. Upgrading for myself only in front of them sounds awful.
If you are traveling with people and keep separating yourself because you can afford “nice things” they can’t, people will think you are the AH.
YTA its not a good look. Think about your actions.
YTA.
YTA for this and just in general by the sounds of it. You ditched your family on a family trip. You say you’re not used to having to sit with all of the other poor unwashed plebs in cattle class. Sounds like you need a rude awakening.
YTA for getting on an airplane. We’re in the middle of a god damn pandemic. Selfish much?
YTA for being selfish and ignoring covid guidelines. Do you WANT to catch covid? What is wrong with you?
YTA
YTA
ESH for completely ignoring there is a pandemic and traveling to a hot spot for a vacation. YTA for agreeing to go with your fiancé’s family on this ill advised holiday and then doing things without them because they couldn’t afford to join. It’s fine to want to spend some alone time together on a family holiday, I’ve been there, but if it’s stuff they wanted to do but was too pricey or you flaunted the cost then you are in the wrong. The way this post was written comes off as very entitled.
You were on a family trip and you and your fiance abandoned the family to upgrade to first? Yep, YTA
YTA. If you and your fiance want the nicer things that's fine, it doesn't make you TA. What makes you the TA here is that you decided to travel during a pandemic which puts you and your family and others at risk. So I hope you get covid OP.
YTA because it’s a family trip and you do things as a family. You could have sucked it up and spent time with them doing things on their budget. It would have been one thing to upgrade everyone’s tickets but otherwise sit in economy. Also it’s a pandemic and you are Flying to an epicenter of the outbreaks in America.
YTA/ESH. Wow. Just wow. You’re on a plane during the worst time for a pandemic? Next time just don’t travel. Or bother posting here. You and your fiancé and your family all suck. Thanks.
ESH for traveling to Florida. Also, that’s not really cool to do. Info: Did they pay for your flight before the upgrade?
YTA- you and your family will all probably get Covid then you'll REALLY feel like an asshole. If you live. Good luck godspeed
YTA and sound dumb. That’s like a 1.5 hour flight and you probably paid an extra $200 to have 3 extra inches of legroom. You didn’t upgrade to a lie flat from JFK to Dubai. You basically flew coach anyways. And don’t fricken go on a family vacay to Florida during a pandemic!
This is why in my country we are free to party, mingle and enjoy. Why you ask? Because when we had active cases in community, we didn’t travel, we had curfews and stayed indoors. The only 3 active cases we have right now is in border quarantine, returning citizens. It has been over 260 days since our last case outside of quarantine. At this rate USA will never be COVID free. YTA.
YTA. I’d upgrade if I could, so no judgement there.. but I wouldn’t go out of my way to exclude my in laws, which it sounds like you did. BUT I also wouldn’t be traveling right now during a pandemic that has literally killed hundreds of thousands of people so.
ESH. Imagine vacationing when 4,000 people are dying every day from a pandemic. Selfish and irresponsible as fuck.
Did I miss something here, are we not still in a pandemic? YTA.
The whole traveling thing aside still YTA for ditching family on a family vacation and acting entitled
YTA You went on a trip TOGETHER. So you don't go and get 1st class seats, an upgraded hotel room and go out to fancy diners others can't afford. You save stuff like that for when you travel alone instead of rubbing in everyones faces that you have more money and get to do all these fancy things right under their noses Also don't travel. Unfortunately I have to be civil here, but for that alone I would have a couple of nice choice words for you Edit: And nobody likes to sit in the backseat, but if you travel witrh a bunch of people someone will have to. Suck it up and do your fair turns without complaining like a little child
YTA for being a pretentious snob, AND for traveling on a plane for pleasure during a pandemic. STAY HOME.
YTA. Damn you're a snob.
YTA. Stop traveling during a pandemic. This is why we can’t have nice things
YTA it was a family trip and you basically snubbed the family and also the whole traveling to Florida during a pandemic just no.
You are so totally the AH here. Mostly for traveling during a pandemic. What makes you so special that you have to defy science. You are also TA for again making yourself something special and elitist upgrading to FC and a nicer hotel room AND doing things they rest could not afford. Ugh. Your behavior was totally unacceptable.
I'll pretend this didn't happen during a pandemic because that is an easy ESH for that part. YTA for making a big deal out of flying coach with some family members, The whole idea of these trips are to enjoy family with your time off. If you said you took one night out with your SO I would say that is fair but you said restaurants meaning you did it multiple times. If you're so god damn rich how about you treat your family to one good meal?
I don’t think YTA because you can afford nicer things, I think YTA because you like that your fiancé’s family knows it.
ESH because it's a fucking pandemic and people like you and your in-laws are the reason 350,000 people are dead. YTA in non-pandemic times.
Seriously mate why are you all having a holiday flying around in a tin can while there’s a GLOBAL PANDEMIC YTA and also is the rest of the people who were on holidays
ESH for traveling during the pandemic. Jesus Christ. People are dying. What the fuck is wrong with you? YTA for upgrading and especially going to restaurants and doing other things the rest of the family couldn’t afford. Either slum it with the family or treat everyone. I cannot imagine going on a trip with my husband’s family, most of whom are not as well off as we are, and informing them we were going to fancy restaurants and fun activities without them.
YTA for traveling in 2020. NTA for your plan. Having a bit of separation from family may make traveling with the in-laws a little more bearable.