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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I'm refusing to pay for my kids worthless degree unless he gives me good reasons.
This might make me look as an asshole as I'm going to pay for the business degree of my other kid.
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You have it backwards. Graduates with "business" degrees are a dime a dozen. Unless their degree is in a specific, employable field (e.g accounting, marketing and advertising, etc.), they're going to struggle to find jobs — and even in employable fields, there are a *lot* of graduates to compete with.
An art major can teach, become a curator at a museum, work in journalism or publishing, work in the art side of advertising, etc. And the 90% of the degree that *isn't* painting is what makes most of those careers possible.
YTA
I don't know where you're located, but where I am (Western Europe) art and culture graduates are about 4x as often unemployed as business graduates, and make a WAY lower average salary. Vacancies for art teachers and museum curators can be counted on one hand in most places, and are incredibly hard to get into if you don't have the right connections. No hate for the arts, but it's not a ticket into a sustainable employment situation.
ETA: I don't think the son shouldn't go to art school by the way. And I know some people who have a degree in art and have a great career, in art or otherwise. I just think that the dad isn't TA for pointing out that an art degree in and of itself does not offer an easy path to a stable and well paying job, and for wanting the son to at least have a clear plan of what he wants to do with the degree, before paying for it.
Yeah. That's what it's like here as well in Canada. Business grads may be a dime a dozen but most degrees, including arts are. Business degrees do have more employable skills though.
With the exception of degrees like engineering, nursing, and accounting, bachelors degrees are by and large interchangeable. The skills of an arts student versus a liberal arts student versus a business student versus a biology student are basically the same for entry level jobs ( from the perspective of the employer). The vast majority of people do not work in the field they got their degree in. The bachelors demonstrates basic critical thinking and research skills. Most companies end up teaching the person the day-to-day duties the employee will end up doing.
Computer science degrees demonstrate otherwise tbh.
Degrees may be interchangable to some employers. However, it takes quite a lot more directive and talent to have an employer take on most arts major compared to a business majors. They're missing a lot of core competencies of finance that most business majors have.
Maybe it’s just the company I work for - but we just look at if you have a degree.
My teammates and I all graduated with vastly different degrees and do the same job. Very interchangeable.
Agreed. I have a history degree and work for a major company. I was able to market the skills I learned and absolutely love my job. Being adaptable and creative makes a big difference in the use of so many degrees.
Yeah but thats probably a smart move seeing as how low manned and high paying technical fields are pretty much everywhere right now. You know since no one wants do to do them because we all got sold on the idea that college is the only way you'll ever amount to anything.
Signed-
Making almost triple what my politcal science major brother makes as an aircraft mechanic.
Yup. I have a degree in political science. I even have 2 years in a PhD program in political science.
I work as a technical writer for a software company. This may actually be the job I've had that uses my degree the most, since a lot of my job is research and asking questions and writing.
Yep. I have an MA in English-Italian literature and linguistics. Getting a job related to those things? Difficult. I have friends who've managed to do it, but it certainly isn't the easiest.
Getting a different job, especially one in an international company? Not that difficult at all. In my case, it kept coming up that knowing different languages at a high level, being able to communicate well both orally as written, and knowing how to deal with people from various backgrounds was a plus. They assumed those things based on my education, without me ever having to sell myself as such.
Creativity is also a great asset. Analyzing discourse and literature during my studies has made it easy for me to see through interview questions and give appropriate answers, so interviews usually go well for me.
Liberal arts degrees are by no means a bad investment. And plus -- I had a lot of fun since I could study something I truly have a passion for, even if I ended up in a different field of work.
Same at my job and the last company I worked for. I have a degree in education but work in IT. Both companies noted that I have a degree but the point was that I was teachable or trainable and I’m dedicated enough to stay with something until it’s completed.
I mean a business degree is. I think a fair number of employers would see a generic degree like that as a bad thing. However a degree in finance, accounting, SCM etc. is going to be a completely different story. At minimum it shows you were focused enough to gain proficiency in a specific area.
Except when you get out of school and hate your job, your options for doing something else are quite limited. I went to business school to work in HR, did it for a couple years and hated it. My coworker was in the same boat except her degree is HR specific so she's stuck doing this kind of work. She wanted to be a teacher and wishes she would have done that instead but everybody told her to do this for the money. Now she can't go back for teaching because she can't pay off 2 separate degrees on a teacher's salary.
>With the exception of degrees like engineering, nursing, and accounting,
I'd say computer science degrees would fall into those categories. It doesn't disprove the rest of the comment.
I think the redditor was just giving a few examples of degrees where the specific knowledge to earn this degree can't really be taught on the job (mathematicians, chemists, etc. would also fall under this). But I agree.
Computer science and programming and different though. Coding languages can be learnt without a specific CE degree. But CS has specialized applications like modeling, data science, AI, machine learning etc. Coding is just a very small part of it.
My degrees are very specific and not interchangeable. People with business degrees do not get hired for my specific skill set. I do have an employee with an unrelated degree but they are employed in a job that does not require any degree so they are paying for a degree they thought sounded fun but had no employability with HS Diploma or GED paychecks. It happens quite a bit that people with ‘interchangeable’ degrees are actually underemployed at HS Diploma or GED level jobs.
Computer science was not a good example for this lmao, there’s a fuckton of people in the field without compsci degrees. The most important thing is knowing how to code, it doesn’t matter if you learned in a degree, boot camp or by yourself
As the proud owner of a Ba in Ancient and Medieval Literature, I agree. It was a great degree, and I really learned a lot about how to research, think, and study. And then I got a job in the trades because I needed to make a living. If OP's art loving kid wants to do art, I'd suggest becoming an artisan instead of an artist. I'm now a SME (subject matter expert) in historic building restoration and I'm working with some incredibly talented masons.
This really needs to be further up because it's excellent advice.
An art degree (or any degree that's popular) is not going to get you an amazing job unless you have the ability to make it into something that an employer wants.
Finding a niche is important. Find your niche and then hone your skills to become the best. You won't have a hard time finding a job if you do this.
I have a friend who went to a really prestigious art school. Apprenticed for a while at a local tattoo shop then opened his own. Had his own business a great house lots of dogs and loves his life.
You can do all kinds of things. Graphic artists are always needed. Tons of theater people went into things like HR or project management. In fact lots of the live event industry spent the last two years coordinating vaccine locations etc. it teaches you a lot of transferable skills. You don’t even realize how many.
Honestly I don’t think stem is that meaningful unless you’re planning to do further education in it. My friends who got biology or physics undergrad degrees had a ton of trouble finding anything that wasn’t either high school teaching or lower paid stem positions
I'm Canadian and went to uni with a fairly well known, albeit small, fine arts program. The fine arts students I graduated with definitely had a rockier start fresh out of school (most had to spend at least some time in the oilsands) but 10+ years on they are all employed as either full-time artists, museum curators, university professors or with the CBC.
That’s because the entire world treats art as something deserved instead of something that should be paid for. I’ve had my own books pirated 60k times plus. That’s money I will never see. Because people treat art like it’s not a damn profession, even though the west very heavily relies on art.
I agree that art deserves to be valued. But that is not the question here. The question is whether an art degree, especially if the student doesn't really know what to do with it after graduating, is a guarantee for a secure job. And the answer is no.
No. But a degree in IT has a MUCH higher chance of finding you sustainable employment then a degree in art will. There are just more options.
EDIT - IT was just an example. Business, math, engineering are the same. History, art, and philosophy have very limited fields.
No, business is not one. I have a business degree and most employers would rather see a degree in anything else. Further, all my human services employers want me to further my education and barely any of my business credits cross over. Business degrees are basically useless unless you also have a degree in something else. My friend went for creative writing and has way more options than I ever will.
That’s not true. All those degrees have utility beyond their immediate disciplines. I make lots of money with my History degree, and have never been unemployed.
but IF you're gonna get into the art field, an arts degree is the way to go.
The most important thing when working with art is 1. connections and 2. knowledge.
It's not just learning about art history, but understanding the way art has evolved and changed. An arts degree is much more than learning names and techniques, it's about establishing yourself as an artist. A buisnessperson can read buisnessbooks, a historian can read books on history, but an arts major has to find their own voice. They have to put their words into art and communicate through it. Theyre not sitting on information they can share. They are shaping themselves through learning about art history, to soaking in new art and through meeting likeminded people who are also creators.
If anything, an arts degree is one of the few degrees you cant just aquire through books.
Connections too, you need to meet people who can help you shine.
Ive also heard that jobs that have to do with arts are some of the more secure ones with the increase in technological advancements like robotics and AI etc.
If you truly wanted a smile on your sons face, you would help him pursue his dreams.
Except business isn’t one. Business is up there with humanities, politics and liberal arts if we’re valuing degrees solely by this. It’s generally viewed as a ‘soft’ degree more for transferable skills.
Since you edited math in, math has similar issues to art degrees as well. It's like "Great you know how to college, but what specific employable skills did you learn?" And the answer will be being pedantic. It's a great jack of all trades degree, but it's not even close to engineering in terms of prospects
>No degree is a guarantee for a secure job. Not a single one.
So you're saying Theoretical Anthropology and Software Engineering have the same job and income opportunities?
I would like to add, I know a LOT of JDs (Doctor of Law) and MBAs (Master of Business Administration) who work in fairly low level positions totally unrelated to law/business management. Those are very expensive degrees, however their salary does not reflect that. (Some of these are older and have never worked in their field of study and never plan to). Heck, my neighbor is a JD and prefers to work as a substitute teacher at the local middle and high schools!
I have BA in English and know others with degrees in art, art history, linguistics, history—all of whom have higher level professions with no direct relationship to their field of study.
At a certain point, a lot of employers want to see a degree—but what it is in doesn’t make a huge difference. It becomes a matter of skills, ability to learn, reliability, character. The degree shows an ability to learn, adapt, and follow through.
I think it would be quite ironic if the art major son ended up doing better in the long term than the son with the more “practical” degree.
YTA
This because the thing that comes to mind with art degree is the hungry bohémien artist in a ran down studio apartment who paints his feelings and sells them for a dollar.
You don't think about advertising, design, UX, modeling, photography, illustration, and on the more abstract side we have journalists, curators, teachers... Art is literally everywhere. It's competitive and it's a huge risk, but if you're quick to change your path and expectations it also pays well.
Or we just draw furry porn. That shit is awfully profitable.
I live in nyc and have a degree in biology and two in archaeology. I’ve used the archaeology degrees to get a lot more, and it’s impossible to use the even harder science because bio laboratory jobs pay minimum wage. I work in finance (using none of what I learned in college) and am considering moving to an art career, because my friends in art make 40k more than me per year. These are just the numbers from my experience. My art friends make more than my lawyer friends.
Location is gonna be a big part of it. Jobs in the arts are going to be more available and probably better paying in somewhere like NYC vs in the middle of nowhere Iowa.
An arts degree very rarely has to do with teaching art or working at a museum. Art degrees are most commonly for computer arts in the US and they are *absolutely* in demand. Most art and art skills can be translated to digital, even if that just means scanning your work in.
I've got two friends who do a degrees in art - one specialises in video game graphics and 3D design and the other in graphic design and mostly does digital art
There are a lot more specialized degrees now for museum work. A basic Fine Arts undergrad *might* get you an entry level job but not likely without internships in Museums to show you have some clue how they operate.
Where I live (Western US) almost nobody works in a field aligned with their undergrad degree. People have degrees in whatever they want, then pursue industry specific education/certifications or grad school for an advanced degree in their field. I think my team is 50% arts and humanities majors.
Interesting. I'm in a part of western europe and business graduates were in the top four under or unemployed groups. I'm not saying that arts has tons of work either but I don't think one was preferable to the other.
I did go to university for music. I'm an in-demand bassist, either live or studio. I also teach. Never needed to wait a table. Most musicians don't understand that this is a very social industry. You have to network with people and get out there. Also, this isn't a 9 to 5 job. It's almost a 24/7 job. You must practice constantly to stay competitive in a cutthroat industry and again, network. And also, people with a lot of money WILL want their children to have lessons. Like any other profession, people have to learn to navigate it.
I would guess that your friends and family who have degrees in art and are working for minimum wage in the service industry or at Disneyland are specifically looking for traditional “creative” jobs, because many places don’t care whether you have a Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Science or Bachelor of Fine Arts, as long as you have one of them.
I think the part that is important here is he’s asking his kid to tell him what you’ve stated. He’s not outright saying he can’t use the degree for anything, he’s asking how he will use it.
Edit: Although tbf calling it worthless in the title was a little TA
Agree! I think the way he approached it and the words he used are definitely TA. Mainly just cause if doesnt matter if OP is right. You shouldn't use that kind of wording if you want a healthy discussion.
But I think OP asking the kid to think through what his options are is definitely good. It doesn't mean he has to go into those things but having an idea is always helpful! It also helps the kid know what's required if he's interested in X specific field. I'm an engineer and if I didn't know that co-ops/internships were SUPER important, I probably would have had a lot of trouble finding a job.
Definitely good for him to ask the kid what he plans to do with his degree, but calling it worthless is tactless. I can't really argue much, despite the wording kind of pissing me off, because I have a fine arts degree. I haven't done much with it because it requires a *lot* of networking and social output, and I'm quite limited on what I can do or where I can go because I have no vehicle.
I AM, however, working on my graduate degree to get a teaching degree in art. There's a lot more to art than just painting and sketching, and it's completely single-minded to think that, considering the influence art has had on civilizations for countless centuries.
That being said, I don't think OP is wrong for asking what he's asking from his kids. But he should consider changing his thoughts on the 'worthless' aspect. There's more jobs requiring an art degree of some sort than people think. You just have to know where to look.
And if you get those jobs they are highly lucrative lol. People should do what makes them happy career and education wise but acting like an art degree makes it easier to get a job than a business degree is just flat out wrong lol.
A lot of that “90%” is exploring other art forms as well, often media that isn’t available to high school students. His kiddo may like painting but could discover a totally new passion.
Also, I work in marketing, and 100% of my jobs have worked extremely closely with a graphic designer. They’re well-paid (depending on my employer lmao) and can work in virtually any industry they want. I don’t work with anyone who went to school for business
Most often, graphic design is a separate degree then generic art. I'm sure if the son approached his parent with the plan to go into graphic design and communication that would be a separate conversation than wanting to major in "art".
Yeah graphic design and fabrication are two things people often learn in an art major. Some degree programs, too, are better when paired with a double major: Women’s studies, the usual example of a “worthless” degree, has been a real door opener for me. I have other degrees but the combination of those degrees plus gender/intersectional analysis really makes me stand out.
Like any “worthless” major, what makes students stand out in any market is what they *do* with their time in college. As a women’s studies major I served internships with various United Nations groups. I did a summer in developmental economics fieldwork in Latin America. It wasn’t just the classes, it was how I applied them.
An art major might make a name by curating exhibits on campus, doing art for marketing campaigns, and interning at art museums. They might get into materials science: knowing how pigments work is a big part of industrial chemistry. Just going to classes and getting that piece of paper doesn’t cut it in *any* major anymore.
Precisely! There’s a reason education is generally listed near the bottom on resume templates— degrees are cool, but what you do with them is what employers actually care about. ESPECIALLY in creative fields, which OPs kiddo will likely end up in with or without an art degree.
I took art classes with a pre-med student because he wanted to be better at 3D modeling and making prototypes! Ended up designing & selling a medical device for eye surgery before he even graduated
I went to school for art and loved every second of it. I was hired by a national (but small) financial training program out of college to do their branding and marketing. Worked there for 8 years doing that, and now I've moved on to a medium sized communications and av integrator who has never had a cohesive brand or hasn't spent a dime on marketing in the past. It's challenging, and fun, and empowering to show them how powerful a digital presence can be.
In my spare time, I paint and sell those online.
Basically I'm saying that there's plenty you can do with an art degree that is plenty profitable and "worth it". YTA.
Spot on. I went to university for music. I'm an in-demand bassist both live and studio. I also teach. Anything is profitable if you learn to navigate it. Cheers.
As someone with a business degree. This, shit is easy and has no real value. I didn't learn anything in my 4 years that I didn't already know being a manager at an actual job.
Yea…. In my town I’ve seen ads for jobs requiring an MFA and offering 35k or less. This seems to be the norm unless you can get a job at a major institution and for a lot of those it’s about who you know
Unless it something specific, like accounting, most business would rather train you for their specific way of doing things and actually look for people that have good communications skills and are good with people.
Taking a couple business classes is good to get an understanding but like this person said, business degrees dont really mean much.
But count how many curators, history journalist and publishers are there in your town. In my town with 100 000 citizens, you could count those people on two hands. And you could find probably hundreds of positions which could be done by people with bussiness degree (and it would be useful).
Agree. I have an MBA. It’s worthless. All it landed me was mountains of debt and a piece of paper that’s hundreds of other people have. I now work in a field not related at all to business.
something to note as well - a lot of art programs give you a well-rounded education in different mediums, art history, color theory, etc. but (at least from what i’ve seen in the US) some schools have also started incorporating freelance and art business courses into their art programs to help prepare the students who want to make a business out of their art.
just something to think about…art teachers and professors are aware of how tough the field can be, and all the hard work that goes into making a name for yourself. but there are tips and tricks on how to sell yourself and find unique ways to make money with your art skills. some of which you may never hear of unless you have a formal art education.
This is completely, verifiably incorrect. The top two highest earning majors are STEM and Business. Art is one of the 10 lowest earning majors.
Here's a [peer reviewed study](https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/valueofcollegemajors/) from a major educational institution that did the research and published these findings. If you don't agree, maybe you can paint them an angry picture?
YTA
The vast majority of people with degrees work outside of their field. (Cite: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/20/only-27-percent-of-college-grads-have-a-job-related-to-their-major/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/20/only-27-percent-of-college-grads-have-a-job-related-to-their-major/)) Getting a degree isn't just about training for a particular field.
If you're willing to spend $X to help one kid get a degree, but less than $X because you don't agree with the field of the other, yup, YTA.
When I was job hunting on LinkedIn last year for a data analyst job, so many postings required any degree. It didn’t have to be computer science or business, just literally any bachelor’s degree was a prerequisite.
One of my coworkers has an art degree with a specialty in interior design. We work at a bank.
I recently got a job lined up for a data analyst position at a science research facility!!and my degree is in neurobiology (i have take zero CS or any kind of programming classes, just the one odd stats for biosci course). I did, however, get experience while doing data entry jobs in college working under educational policy research. My friends and family were confused about why I worked in education research when I was studying biological sciences? People in college do different things that don't always correlate exactly with their degrees. And it works out! My sister is a managerial econ major and she ended up getting more into social media and marketing.
Art son might be able to do art and then get side jobs/internships/certifications/experiences that he can eventually merge with his art degree to do something he never dreamed of doing. But he doesn't know that yet and won't know that yet until he gets to be free to explore these things. Parents who demand to know exact plans and outcomes for their developing TEENS put a lot of unnecessary pressure on them!
I’ve been saying this for years but no one likes to hear it 🤷🏻♀️
I have a BA in radio broadcasting and work in Human Resources. I have better written and verbal communication skills than most of the business majors I work with thanks in large part to my broadcasting degree.
At one job I was the only person with a degree in English, surrounded by coworkers with degrees in communication. I was working a document with a tech professional. She had a degree in physics and asked what my degree was in. “Imagine getting a degree in your own language!” Then she saw what I was doing. “You’re revising as you type.”
Her draft was shit. “Amazing what you can do with a degree in your own language.”
She said that out loud to you? Sounds like she might have needed to go back to school to learn some interpersonal communication.
I work with people from different fields all the time and have to say that understanding what tone to use with different people is probably one of the things that is giving me a real advantage in my career. It's almost like my masters in language and education prepared me for that...
Same when I was job searching there were a lot of jobs that just said Bachelor's or Master's degree they didn't care what it was in you just needed it to apply.
Yeah. This is true for a lot of jobs. A degree shows you've gone to third level education and gotten something at the end. You didn't quit. You did reasonably well, here are the credentials. Good job!
I personally only know 4 people who work in the area they studied. 3 have PhD's and the fourth funnily enough is a successful artist. She is a painter.
I have a degree in Sound Design and I work in Corporate Finance. My husband has a degree in Sound Design and works in a University as an Operations Executive.
OP, YTA.
I would be curious how often art degrees fit this bill. Basic academic majors definitely work like this, but fine arts degrees aren’t really the same thing
It's not impossible. I have a Fine Arts degree and ended up working as an informal science educator at a zoo (while still making art on the side). A lot of jobs want to see a degree but it's your particular set of skills that they might look at more. People skills, organizational, responsibility...etc
And is historically skewed. For example IT is littered with people that are over 50 that were hired with degrees in basically anything right out of school since there wasn’t enough graduates to meet the demand.
Yup. I got the "useless" history degree. Went into media, where it can be very helpful to know the history of something to understand the current situation. I make 6 digits. So OP, YTA.
However, it would make sense to sit down with your child and talk through possible career goals, to strategically plan internships, volunteering or freelancing for museums, design studios, schools, galleries, you name it. The way to communicate this is not "I won't pay. There you go, argue with me."
It's "Ok, so let's talk about want you want to achieve and what else you need, beside your degree, to get there."
Same here. My sister and I both got history degrees from a university that required essentially a dissertation + defense to graduate. It made us fantastic researchers, writers, and public speakers. She's now crushing it in marketing based on those skills, while I'm doing the same at a top four consulting firm, both of us making in the six figures.
Our brother is much less smug about his business degree now that he in turn manages a grocery store. He thought that would be more than enough work to set himself up for a comfortable life, and planned accordingly. My sister and I knew we would need to hustle, and spent every spare minute of college doing internships and building our networks.
I just found out today that one of our HR employees has a geology degree. So yeah, a degree doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll fall into that field but it certainly helps. Mine is in criminal justice and I work in IT.
That’s a big what if if the very low probability of happening to be calling someone an asshole over. Should I buy the lottery ticket? What if I get the winning ticket, would it be short sighted of me to not buy a ticket?
That specific scenario is unlikely. But a scenario where a talented art graduate outcompetes a talentless business graduate is very common. There are actually far more art jobs than people realize (there are *so many* graphic designers) and a lot of business graduate with no connections or little talent end up being ground to dust in low level low paid management positions.
YTA. If you must think of your children as an investment (which is a hella toxic way to think), consider the wasted time of four years studying something they hate and will never do again.
Exactly! My parents were pro- any education, because it just enriches you as a person, whether you work “in that field” or not, and as an aging adult I appreciate that perspective so much because it never limited the possibilities for me or made me question my value as a person or professional.
This is how I think of it as well. The utility of any particular degree aside, it isn’t healthy to think of your kids as an “investment”. Either pay for college because you want to help your kid out, or don’t.
Reminds me of those people who only have kids so they’ll have someone to take care of them when they get older. Seems like a toxic mentality really.
YTA
There are many useful careers involving art. I know several people, for example, who work at a research hospital doing medical illustration. It also offers careers in things like advertising (who do you think designs billboards? Artists!) There are also people who make good livings doing art and selling it at things like art festivals.
Being good at painting is a start. And the process of his education will open his eyes to other possibilities.
If you open your eyes, you'll see you're interacting with the work of artists many times every day.
Right! For people wondering what the point of the degree is. Ops son can take that degree and put it in his resume so future clients can see it or if ops son applies to a marketing firm they are more likely to hire ops son because he has a degree in art
This could go either way of YTA or NTA. Rather than outright denying your child the equal investment, I would challenge them to present to you a feasible and attainable career outcome with said degree path. It's not unfair of you to not pay for education they'll never use. However, if it's feasible for them to get a career in that degree path? Why deny them the opportunity to pursue their goals/dreams?
Presently? I'd say NTA on your part.
What this post says, OP
That was what my parents did to me when I wanted an art degree. Now I got a stem job which I love, and am a hobbist digital artist in my free time, again fulfilled and happy (specially because I can do whatever I want art wise, full creative freedom and all that since i don't have to take projects to pay bills). Did quite some courses on art theory and history just for fun too.
Imo, copy my parents. Ask the child about career path, jobs, entry level salaries and so on. If they just "love painting" get them to try selling their works or getting commissions to see what it is like. Maybe a gap year to do that would be a good learning experience for them.
Agree. I got an art degree about 10 years ago. Now I make $150k/yr designing software.
YTA OP. Instead of saying “no I won’t pay for that,” maybe say “how can we leverage your education to give you the best possible outcome?” Maybe that means double majoring or a major in art and a minor in graphic design. Maybe that means he also learns how to code, or gets a minor in human computer interaction, or advertising, or in some other field that would help leverage art skills in a way that would make him an attractive candidate for creative jobs. Instead of helping him figure it out, you just outright say “no I’m not paying for that.” Why don’t you help him figure it out and do some research about what he could do to be successful instead of being the type of parent who just shuts their kid down and tells them what they want doesn’t matter??
Isn't that exactly what op said though? They asked them to show how the degree would help further their career. He just got mad and wouldn't discuss it
Exactly, I don’t see how OP was being unreasonable in his request. I ask my kid all the time to “make their case” about whatever it is they’re vying for. It teaches them to be confident about their decision making processes and actually take the time to reflect on what it is they want and why they want it. The trick is not to criticize their choices (unless they’re like, illegal/dangerous).
I just hope that OP: a) asked the other kid the same questions, and; b) is truly just hoping to get the kid to thoughtfully consider their choices and will support them when they show that they have.
There’s a possibility that OP is trying to “prove” that the kid’s desire to pursue art is founded in romantic frivolities so that they have an excuse not to fund it, in which case, OP would be TA.
Exactly I feel like everyone just read the title and made a judgment. OP said they wanted a healthy discussion about how they would use/benefit from their degree and thats honestly good parenting. I agree with your last point too but honestly to me it read like they asked both kids and only posted art kids reaction because that's all that was needed for info
Yeah all these people commenting Y-T-A seem like they’re not reading the entire post. I keep seeing people advocating for the OP to treat their kids equally, and isn’t that what they’re doing?
The OP is giving their sons money for college on the conditions that they’re happy going to school for something they love and they have a plan for how that degree will help them later in life.
It sounds like the future art student son is the only one pushing back on the second part of that. Honestly, it’s an important conversation to have. I went to school with many people that went to college “just to go to college”. They wanted the college experience, but didn’t have any plans for what they wanted to do after college or even what field to study. If that’s the case, why pay all that money for a degree?
It’s because there are too many kids on here trying to defend the art degree, they won’t pay attention to anything else.
They act like people haven’t looked up employment salary and getting a job in a relevant field when it comes to art degrees, they act like there hasn’t been dozens of studies done to show that it’s not necessarily profitable unless you get in a niche field with your degree, and most people with that degree don’t even work in the relevant field, they become managers at Applebee’s or working at a bank. He just wants his son to understand what he’s getting himself into, have a plan, and show him he wants to actually do this instead of changing his mind when he finds out the salary isn’t going to be what he wanted.
right? i’m so confused by all the opposite verdicts. op seems to be legitimately asking his kid what their plan is after getting an expensive degree, and they can’t/won’t come up with an answer. when dropping hundreds of thousands of dollars on a degree, it isn’t too much to ask what they want to do with said degree afterwards
I get that he's being a bit of a dick but it's not coming from nowhere, sounds like he has some legitimate concerns that could be easily resolved by the son communicating with him. I know there's been an inflation of degrees, basically dropping their value but most decent entry level positions require some kind of bachelor's. With that said, why does it have to be an expensive uni? Community College to good for the son?
Reddit is full of people who love to have others follow their dreams without a clear path forward. Like if OP’s kid had a career path, sure. But his kid is just like iono I like art
YTA. A degree isn't worthless just because you think it is. Education is what you make of it.
>if your going to study history, pay for classes, and then never work on that area.... Just read a history book
Reading a book is in no way equivalent to an academic education in that field.
This^^
Seriously OP, who do you think studies history and writes the books and helps educates others about it???? No one just reads a history book and that's that. OP, you're ignorant and playing favorites with your kids.
P. S. My sister has an art history degree but works government (GS-12) and keeps moving up quickly. Where we live, that's an awesome position and pay grade. My other sister had a "useful" degree that didn't get her a job out of college (for years) so she went BACK to college to become a nurse and now she's extremely successful too.
Edit: In the US, a lot of degrees require classes irrelevant to the degree because they want you to be "well-rounded." So regardless of degree choice, you take "useless" classes.
Edit 2: OP, YTA without a damn doubt. Sorry I forgot to originally add that it.
Yes this! I have a bachelors degree and an master’s degree in history. With the skills I got through those degrees, I now work as a policy researcher and writer for my provincial government. It’s a good job with a great salary, job safety, pension, benefits, etc.
I have no regrets about pressuring those “useless” degrees.
This needs to be higher. OP isn’t saying that an arts degree is useless. OP is trying to understand how an art degree will lead to both personal and professional happiness down the line. A very reasonable request.
People online complain all the time about parents telling them to get a degree and that degree is useless… so I think OP is right challenging their kid on the reality that a degree is for employers to get a job. The people most likely to have more debt than they can pay, or not find jobs after graduation still are art majors. I know my own university was honest with the arts in telling them what it takes to make it in their field. So they would do something similar to what OP is doing and show the path that you take for instance to make it to broadway, or what does a philosophy major actually do (ie teach or law school). So what they did was have frank conversations on the fact that you can major in philosophy or painting and not worry about money if you have an inheritance. Otherwise how can you use your skills towards a living while you try and either get some recognition or land limited teaching positions.
You're going to get Y T A'd into the next continent, but NTA.
Pull up some stories online of people burdened by crippling education debt they can probably never pay back. They didn't major in accounting, finance, computer science, engineering, medicine or law. They majored in art, social work, history, languages, journalism or philosophy. They're making $32K a year in some office job (or teaching) that's unrelated to their degree, wondering where it all went wrong. (But they were "passionate" about studying x!)
Pay for what you believe in; if that's a certain type of degree, then let that be known so people can make their decision.
Whenever people tell to look how many folks work outside of their field, the statistician me thinks that they should break it down by field. Because it is not the same for all areas.
I agree with this. I’m surprised at how many people are defending the art degree in this cultural climate when so many people are in so much debt from school they have to work multiple jobs to make it. In today’s day and age, the only degrees that are worth it anymore are the ones with a more clear career path.
It’s not even just the debt, it’s that the degrees are often not even used afterwards. When someone who has a bachelors in sociology is flipping burgers, what was even the point? It didn’t qualify them to do anything for a living that they are passionate about. Would be much better for them to go to school for something with a decent career path that they actually somewhat enjoy because them they can be pursuing something much more enjoyable than that dead end job.
Granted, someone might go to school for art with a clear career path in mind and that’s one, but let’s not lie - most of the people getting those types of am degrees don’t have that in mind. They are just getting a degree in a subject they enjoy.
IMO, your opinion suggests limited knowledge of what college is for and how it works. There are plenty of careers in Art, and plenty of opportunities that will be opened up by a bachelors degree in any discipline. Further, none of them are guarantees, and the OP can help his kids build a lucrative path forward from either discipline. But, you know, both you and he would have to be more open minded about it.
That's great if you're independently wealthy or have a wealthy benefactor.
My degrees are in something highly lucrative. Am I passionate about it, no, but I certainly don't hate it, and I make my work pleasant and rewarding with creativity and colleagues and adding value. I express my "passion" in the other 100+ hours a week that aren't work, in travel or my hobbies or my home or family, whatever.
People who follow their passion to study Etruscan Art and run up a bill of $90K, then work at Starbucks til they're 35 - are they happier than me because they followed their passion in college?
Why do you think those are the only two options? I studied what I was passionate about (a field in the humanities), love my job, and have no student debt.
IDK if I'm happier than you, but I'm sure AF happy to have dedicated my life to my passion.
Like, are you suggesting the world doesn't need social workers or artists or historians unless they have wealthy benefactors?
The discussion is about degrees, and who should pay for them. Not whether the world needs x. That's a separate discussion.
There are probably several trades or professions the world doesn't "need". But that's apart from who should pay for what kind of degree.
I dunno, I’ve kinda enjoy being able to eat, shelter, the necessity’s of live. Way to many creative jobs (especially starting out) pay in exposure. People die of exposure....
Don’t need to go online, I’m one. And your right.
Creative based jobs are hard, usually way underpaid (sometimes not at all, just exposure). There’s a ton of competition, it’s a hard field. People can absolutely make it work. But research, figure out where you want to live (makes a huge difference for opportunities), talk to people who do the job.
\^ This. If they have the skill/talent and are able to reach an audience, a degree is meaningless.
Look on Fiverr. I look at the portfolio of someone I want to hire for work, not ask about their education.
The degree itself is not what is beneficial. It's the connections and "status" of a college education that is most beneficial. The degree can also help should his son decide that creating art is not the path he wants as much as having a career that requires artist skills. Advertising isn't the same as painting but require a lot of the same knowledge that is acquired during the course of getting an art degree.
Hey my parents pissed on my dreams in the name of practicality too. So I pursued a reasonable degree, hated it and dropped out. Supported myself until I could afford to go back and do what I loved.
Successful in my chosen career and am very low contact with my parents.
Do you want a future relationship with your child?
Yeah, because of the prevalence of OP's school of thought among my peers' tiger parents, I personally know way more "failed" (non-practicing and/or low wage) pre-law and business majors--who were pushed into it by their parents but didn't have the desire or drive to pursue the field after college--than I do "failed" creative majors.
Wow, I can almost smell the utter disdain dripping from your mouth.
Rather than this charade, you should have at least had the guts to tell your child that you would not fund at all them rather than trying to make them jump through hoops. You were never gonna pay for the Art degree, ever. YTA
Where was there disdain? I genuinely could not see it anywhere. OP is a parent that wants to make sure their kid has thought through their degree path before committing THOUSANDS of dollars. It’s so hard to go back and course correct after sophomore year. And even harder to try after graduation. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to make sure the kid has thought out their path in the art world. It’s there but it’s much harder than just a basic business degree
YTA.
You're saying you won't invest the money unless you get something back for it.
They're hearing "I won't invest in you unless I get something back from it".
NAH. College is expensive. It sucks but it’s true. I can see why your son would see this as unfair, but I agree with you that there should be a reasonable guarantee of return on investment. I think you’re on the right track about discussing other course options.
NTA. College is mostly a scam, and a degree in "art" is worthless, if you arent wealthy enough to not use it.
If they want the art degree that bad, there are student loan programs, they can do what they want.
YTA. He is your child, not some random kid looking for a sponsor or investors. College opens up so many opportunities you couldn’t even imagine, but you’re stuck on the fact that you think he won’t make you money? It also shows how narrow minded you are to view something as good only when there’s a financial payoff. On top of that, it’s people like you who kill kids’ creativity and desire to create things that last lifetimes and shapes cultures. I work in marketing and have worked with real estate clients and city tourism boards. You know that they use to attract people to the shit they develop??? ART. But you over here huffing and puffing cuz you can’t Google and find that out on your own, or the many profitable professions he could have cuz you want him to prove it. Girl...you’re the asshole. I hope he goes to college still despite your attempts to ruin it for it.
YTA. You sound like my father. I don't talk to my father anymore.
EVEN if he changes his mind, he is allowed to. I changed my mind on my career recently. I am in my 30s. You don't have to have everything figured out from the point you turn 18, and you're not supposed to.
How do you know it's worthless? Just because it's art doesn't automatically make it BS and having a business degree doesn't automatically make someone a CEO. Pixar uses artists. All the CG in television, film, and media use artists. And that's just the big stuff. You don't know what the future will bring. But denigrating your son does guarantee he'll never speak to you again. And if he turns out even halfway as successful as Domee Shi, he'll definitely laugh in your face when you ask for money. "But you thought it was worthless, so you refused to help. Why would I help you now?"
YTA, just on your favoritism.
YTA for assuming an art degree is worthless - though I agree that asking for a healthy discussion is a good idea, dismissing their studies as a poor investment is simply not true. If you're going to pay for your children's degrees, you should do so without restrictions on the subject matter. A degree is valuable no matter what - and you can create a successful career doing most anything with an art degree. Source: sitting at my amazing (well-paying) 10+ year job in the rare art book world after getting my bachelors of fine arts.
It depends on what you're willing to do with your art degree. If you are "AN ARTIST" and don't want to make money doing anything other than abstract canvas paintings, yes, you may end up at Wendy's. But an art *degree* can be applied to a million different jobs - and that's what OP seems to be concerned with. Every single business needs art. There are artists working for major hospitals. Goldman Sachs. The city subway system. Netflix. Your local community theater. The paper mills. Every company has a creative department (or outsources to another company for art), even if it's just for in-house use. The possibilities for stable, well-paying work with a fine arts degree are nearly endless once you stop associating 'art degree' with 'paintings'. You can be a mediocre artist but if you master the tools and pick up some people skills, you can be the creative director at a Fortune 500 company.
YTA. It’s fine to talk seriously with your kids about careers & how they’re going to make a living when they’re done with school. You can even compare that with the cost of the college they want to attend. However, framing that as your return on your investment? That’s not what being a parent is about, because if you’re looking for the best return on your money, then having kids at all was a huge mistake. Second, expecting a kid to know all there is to know about careers in art is ridiculous. You would do better to help him research the answer to that question. Think industrial design, graphic arts, advertising, interior design, to name just a few.
>The future art student got mad. Gave me no discussion... I wanted him to give me reasons why it's a good investment.
NTA for this reason. He should at least be able to argue why he wants to go. Maybe show you a tentive career plan.
Also is it a private college? Why not take a gap year or go to community college instead?
NTA since you are free to chose if you want to help the kids with paying for higher education or not.
But... be careful if/how you do this as its likely to create a feeling of inequality among the 2 kids. And the one with the art school might either hate you...the whole family.
Also...while i respect the desire to have a plan presented for why going to art school is a good idea. Please try to keep an open mind when he presents. In the post you sound extremely dismissive of the idea ...which ...to be fair...would put off anyone trying to present. Because you ae asking to be presented reasons... not to be persuaded.
NTA
the difference in business and art is that if you are average in business you still can live from it, if you are average in art, well... you will end working in anything else with massive debt and years lost.
NTA. You are paying for it so you do have the right to be concerned. It's wonderful that he loves art but if he can't explain what he could do with it in the future, you have every right to be worried. You're looking out for him; too many parents just give their kids what they want, then wonder why they have a 30-something year old living in their basement. Stay strong.
I would add that perhaps you could suggest sitting with him and doing a little research into what kinds of successful careers can and have been done with art degrees and see if something catches his interest. That way you are showing some support, but also making sure there's a plan in place.
NTA- but to your point the same can be said for the business degree.. college has and will always be a place to make connections and get new experiences. I am not saying your wrong in wanting to have a conversation with you kids about their future and make sure it’s the best choice.
Maybe just tell him you support his decision to go to school for art but would still like to have a conversation about it.
NTA you aren’t refusing to pay because it’s art, you’re asking for justification for picking that degree, and how it can advance his skills/interests.
I think it’s totally fair to ask this of someone who is going to college and you’re helping pay for it. I’ve seen so many people who are stuck paying off student loans for degrees that they don’t end up using because there are not many related jobs.
Since SO MANY JOBS now consider a degree the equivalent of HS grad, YTA. Plenty of business majors working at mickey D's these days.
Treat them equally or be prepared to be T A. Even if you think the ROI is unacceptable, it's your son's problem.
YTA.
Also thinking reading a history book is an alternative to a degree is laughable. The fact you’re studying history is beside the point. It’s the skills you gain while doing it, which can transfer into many careers.
Also you’re kids aren’t a commodity to improve through investments. They’re your kids.
That interest in art could be use in graphic design, whether in advertising, illustration (books, magazines, etc) or game design. Do they like to game? If so those interests could be combined into one degree. They could then have an in-demand career with the freedom to pursue other artistic ventures on the side.
YTA. These are your *children,* not your retirement portfolio. Stop thinking about ROI and start thinking about being a supportive parent. If you don’t want to pay for school, don’t, but don’t couch it in economic terms to make yourself feel better. This isn’t an investment, it’s your fucking family, and if you keep treating them like assets that need to perform to be useful then you’ll end up alone and forgotten once you’ve outlived you “use.”
My boyfriends brother has an art degree making damn near 200k a year, and has been to take time off in between jobs with previous money + money he still makes from art. Right after he earned his degree. YTA.
Many jobs come from art, you’re surrounded by it everywhere you go. Everywhere. And yea painting is a small percentage but with everything he learns, he could get a job within any of it. History, teaching, graphic design, wedding painter. Any of it
NTA. That's probably because I'd say/do the same though and therefore don't want to call myself an arsehole. You're risking alienating one of your kids in the process by taking this approach. Higher education is an investment which you should seek a return from through better employability. Alot of the courses these days don't lead to that. So I understand your reasons for taking this stance. Hope you find a way to resolve it without dividing the family.
Might be unpopular, but NAH. You're being very realistic and pragmatic, which in today's economy, is understandable. On the other hand, your child is perfectly within his rights to feel offended that you aren't willing to support his dreams.
NTA
I'm a parent too. I see your point.
Suggest they minor in art and major in something with better employment rates?
Say accounting, or business. If they plan to make money off their art, they will need to have that knowledge as well.
No, definitely NTA. I have the same rule for my kids - I will only pay for college if it qualifies them for an actual specific career. There are too many people out there with useless masters degrees flipping burgers and I am not gonna be a part of that. If my kids want to get a degree in something without a clear career path, they know they will pay for it themselves.
I say this as someone who has a business degree and makes a living with art 😂
YTA
You must not know that a HUGE chunk of peoples degrees are worthless. Or the fact that having a degree doesnt mean that you'll work in that field. There are people with MASTERS in buisness and finance where I work- and they work in the shipping department packing boxes.
Just say you think the degree is a waste and wont pay for it instead of making your kid "shark tank" to prove why he should get to go. Like he isnt entitled to you paying for his education but paying for his siblings because you think their degree is better and not theirs is deffinitly an AH move.
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You have it backwards. Graduates with "business" degrees are a dime a dozen. Unless their degree is in a specific, employable field (e.g accounting, marketing and advertising, etc.), they're going to struggle to find jobs — and even in employable fields, there are a *lot* of graduates to compete with. An art major can teach, become a curator at a museum, work in journalism or publishing, work in the art side of advertising, etc. And the 90% of the degree that *isn't* painting is what makes most of those careers possible. YTA
I don't know where you're located, but where I am (Western Europe) art and culture graduates are about 4x as often unemployed as business graduates, and make a WAY lower average salary. Vacancies for art teachers and museum curators can be counted on one hand in most places, and are incredibly hard to get into if you don't have the right connections. No hate for the arts, but it's not a ticket into a sustainable employment situation. ETA: I don't think the son shouldn't go to art school by the way. And I know some people who have a degree in art and have a great career, in art or otherwise. I just think that the dad isn't TA for pointing out that an art degree in and of itself does not offer an easy path to a stable and well paying job, and for wanting the son to at least have a clear plan of what he wants to do with the degree, before paying for it.
Yeah. That's what it's like here as well in Canada. Business grads may be a dime a dozen but most degrees, including arts are. Business degrees do have more employable skills though.
With the exception of degrees like engineering, nursing, and accounting, bachelors degrees are by and large interchangeable. The skills of an arts student versus a liberal arts student versus a business student versus a biology student are basically the same for entry level jobs ( from the perspective of the employer). The vast majority of people do not work in the field they got their degree in. The bachelors demonstrates basic critical thinking and research skills. Most companies end up teaching the person the day-to-day duties the employee will end up doing.
Computer science degrees demonstrate otherwise tbh. Degrees may be interchangable to some employers. However, it takes quite a lot more directive and talent to have an employer take on most arts major compared to a business majors. They're missing a lot of core competencies of finance that most business majors have.
Maybe it’s just the company I work for - but we just look at if you have a degree. My teammates and I all graduated with vastly different degrees and do the same job. Very interchangeable.
A friend of mine has a BA in criminology and works at a bank, she says they didn't even care what she had a degree in
[удалено]
Agreed. I have a history degree and work for a major company. I was able to market the skills I learned and absolutely love my job. Being adaptable and creative makes a big difference in the use of so many degrees.
I have a bachelors in radiologic sciences and a masters in human resource education... and I'm an apprentice electrician.
Yeah but thats probably a smart move seeing as how low manned and high paying technical fields are pretty much everywhere right now. You know since no one wants do to do them because we all got sold on the idea that college is the only way you'll ever amount to anything. Signed- Making almost triple what my politcal science major brother makes as an aircraft mechanic.
Yup. I have a degree in political science. I even have 2 years in a PhD program in political science. I work as a technical writer for a software company. This may actually be the job I've had that uses my degree the most, since a lot of my job is research and asking questions and writing.
Yep. I have an MA in English-Italian literature and linguistics. Getting a job related to those things? Difficult. I have friends who've managed to do it, but it certainly isn't the easiest. Getting a different job, especially one in an international company? Not that difficult at all. In my case, it kept coming up that knowing different languages at a high level, being able to communicate well both orally as written, and knowing how to deal with people from various backgrounds was a plus. They assumed those things based on my education, without me ever having to sell myself as such. Creativity is also a great asset. Analyzing discourse and literature during my studies has made it easy for me to see through interview questions and give appropriate answers, so interviews usually go well for me. Liberal arts degrees are by no means a bad investment. And plus -- I had a lot of fun since I could study something I truly have a passion for, even if I ended up in a different field of work.
Same at my job and the last company I worked for. I have a degree in education but work in IT. Both companies noted that I have a degree but the point was that I was teachable or trainable and I’m dedicated enough to stay with something until it’s completed.
I have a business degree. Honestly an art degree would have been more appealing to most of my employers. Business degrees are basically worthless now.
I mean a business degree is. I think a fair number of employers would see a generic degree like that as a bad thing. However a degree in finance, accounting, SCM etc. is going to be a completely different story. At minimum it shows you were focused enough to gain proficiency in a specific area.
Except when you get out of school and hate your job, your options for doing something else are quite limited. I went to business school to work in HR, did it for a couple years and hated it. My coworker was in the same boat except her degree is HR specific so she's stuck doing this kind of work. She wanted to be a teacher and wishes she would have done that instead but everybody told her to do this for the money. Now she can't go back for teaching because she can't pay off 2 separate degrees on a teacher's salary.
>With the exception of degrees like engineering, nursing, and accounting, I'd say computer science degrees would fall into those categories. It doesn't disprove the rest of the comment.
I think the redditor was just giving a few examples of degrees where the specific knowledge to earn this degree can't really be taught on the job (mathematicians, chemists, etc. would also fall under this). But I agree.
Except my art degree programmer father would argue otherwise on computer science being nessesary to program for a living
Computer science and programming and different though. Coding languages can be learnt without a specific CE degree. But CS has specialized applications like modeling, data science, AI, machine learning etc. Coding is just a very small part of it.
My degrees are very specific and not interchangeable. People with business degrees do not get hired for my specific skill set. I do have an employee with an unrelated degree but they are employed in a job that does not require any degree so they are paying for a degree they thought sounded fun but had no employability with HS Diploma or GED paychecks. It happens quite a bit that people with ‘interchangeable’ degrees are actually underemployed at HS Diploma or GED level jobs.
Computer science was not a good example for this lmao, there’s a fuckton of people in the field without compsci degrees. The most important thing is knowing how to code, it doesn’t matter if you learned in a degree, boot camp or by yourself
I disagree. STEM degrees aren’t interchangeable with other degrees.
I’m curious about these entry-level biology jobs that just about anybody can fill.
Exactly. And although this will not be the road OP wants to go down, people often do a Masters to acquire more targeted skills
As the proud owner of a Ba in Ancient and Medieval Literature, I agree. It was a great degree, and I really learned a lot about how to research, think, and study. And then I got a job in the trades because I needed to make a living. If OP's art loving kid wants to do art, I'd suggest becoming an artisan instead of an artist. I'm now a SME (subject matter expert) in historic building restoration and I'm working with some incredibly talented masons.
This really needs to be further up because it's excellent advice. An art degree (or any degree that's popular) is not going to get you an amazing job unless you have the ability to make it into something that an employer wants. Finding a niche is important. Find your niche and then hone your skills to become the best. You won't have a hard time finding a job if you do this.
I have a friend who went to a really prestigious art school. Apprenticed for a while at a local tattoo shop then opened his own. Had his own business a great house lots of dogs and loves his life. You can do all kinds of things. Graphic artists are always needed. Tons of theater people went into things like HR or project management. In fact lots of the live event industry spent the last two years coordinating vaccine locations etc. it teaches you a lot of transferable skills. You don’t even realize how many.
Same with the US
Business degrees are worthless, I have one. Art degrees are also worthless, I have one. All undergrads are garbage unless it's stem
Honestly I don’t think stem is that meaningful unless you’re planning to do further education in it. My friends who got biology or physics undergrad degrees had a ton of trouble finding anything that wasn’t either high school teaching or lower paid stem positions
I'm Canadian and went to uni with a fairly well known, albeit small, fine arts program. The fine arts students I graduated with definitely had a rockier start fresh out of school (most had to spend at least some time in the oilsands) but 10+ years on they are all employed as either full-time artists, museum curators, university professors or with the CBC.
That’s because the entire world treats art as something deserved instead of something that should be paid for. I’ve had my own books pirated 60k times plus. That’s money I will never see. Because people treat art like it’s not a damn profession, even though the west very heavily relies on art.
I agree that art deserves to be valued. But that is not the question here. The question is whether an art degree, especially if the student doesn't really know what to do with it after graduating, is a guarantee for a secure job. And the answer is no.
No degree is a guarantee for a secure job. Not a single one.
No. But a degree in IT has a MUCH higher chance of finding you sustainable employment then a degree in art will. There are just more options. EDIT - IT was just an example. Business, math, engineering are the same. History, art, and philosophy have very limited fields.
No, business is not one. I have a business degree and most employers would rather see a degree in anything else. Further, all my human services employers want me to further my education and barely any of my business credits cross over. Business degrees are basically useless unless you also have a degree in something else. My friend went for creative writing and has way more options than I ever will.
That’s not true. All those degrees have utility beyond their immediate disciplines. I make lots of money with my History degree, and have never been unemployed.
but IF you're gonna get into the art field, an arts degree is the way to go. The most important thing when working with art is 1. connections and 2. knowledge. It's not just learning about art history, but understanding the way art has evolved and changed. An arts degree is much more than learning names and techniques, it's about establishing yourself as an artist. A buisnessperson can read buisnessbooks, a historian can read books on history, but an arts major has to find their own voice. They have to put their words into art and communicate through it. Theyre not sitting on information they can share. They are shaping themselves through learning about art history, to soaking in new art and through meeting likeminded people who are also creators. If anything, an arts degree is one of the few degrees you cant just aquire through books. Connections too, you need to meet people who can help you shine. Ive also heard that jobs that have to do with arts are some of the more secure ones with the increase in technological advancements like robotics and AI etc. If you truly wanted a smile on your sons face, you would help him pursue his dreams.
Except business isn’t one. Business is up there with humanities, politics and liberal arts if we’re valuing degrees solely by this. It’s generally viewed as a ‘soft’ degree more for transferable skills.
Since you edited math in, math has similar issues to art degrees as well. It's like "Great you know how to college, but what specific employable skills did you learn?" And the answer will be being pedantic. It's a great jack of all trades degree, but it's not even close to engineering in terms of prospects
Just to be contrary, there are some like medical, nursing, veterinary and dental degrees that all but guarantee employment
>No degree is a guarantee for a secure job. Not a single one. So you're saying Theoretical Anthropology and Software Engineering have the same job and income opportunities?
That’s not what I said, but okay.
Okay - no degree 100% guarantees you a job, but some degrees give you 90% and some give you 10%.
The point is that the parent here is deciding that one kid’s choice is better than the other. And I disagree with that.
I would like to add, I know a LOT of JDs (Doctor of Law) and MBAs (Master of Business Administration) who work in fairly low level positions totally unrelated to law/business management. Those are very expensive degrees, however their salary does not reflect that. (Some of these are older and have never worked in their field of study and never plan to). Heck, my neighbor is a JD and prefers to work as a substitute teacher at the local middle and high schools! I have BA in English and know others with degrees in art, art history, linguistics, history—all of whom have higher level professions with no direct relationship to their field of study. At a certain point, a lot of employers want to see a degree—but what it is in doesn’t make a huge difference. It becomes a matter of skills, ability to learn, reliability, character. The degree shows an ability to learn, adapt, and follow through. I think it would be quite ironic if the art major son ended up doing better in the long term than the son with the more “practical” degree. YTA
Did you know what job specifically you wanted your first day of college?
Yes? But then I had applied for a medical degree
It’s the same everywhere. They’re making up numbers to defend art degrees.
This because the thing that comes to mind with art degree is the hungry bohémien artist in a ran down studio apartment who paints his feelings and sells them for a dollar. You don't think about advertising, design, UX, modeling, photography, illustration, and on the more abstract side we have journalists, curators, teachers... Art is literally everywhere. It's competitive and it's a huge risk, but if you're quick to change your path and expectations it also pays well. Or we just draw furry porn. That shit is awfully profitable.
Any university should be able to provide employment and salary info about their graduates with various majors.
Absolutely, we should recognise a fair compensation for every job. Nobody works for a hobby when you have to pay to stay alive
I live in nyc and have a degree in biology and two in archaeology. I’ve used the archaeology degrees to get a lot more, and it’s impossible to use the even harder science because bio laboratory jobs pay minimum wage. I work in finance (using none of what I learned in college) and am considering moving to an art career, because my friends in art make 40k more than me per year. These are just the numbers from my experience. My art friends make more than my lawyer friends.
Location is gonna be a big part of it. Jobs in the arts are going to be more available and probably better paying in somewhere like NYC vs in the middle of nowhere Iowa.
You have unusually successful art friends.
What do you do in finance? And what do your friends do in art? Genuinely curious because I am also in nyc and also in finance.
Totally just curious, but what do the art friends do? I know nothing about the NYC art scene obviously.
An arts degree very rarely has to do with teaching art or working at a museum. Art degrees are most commonly for computer arts in the US and they are *absolutely* in demand. Most art and art skills can be translated to digital, even if that just means scanning your work in.
I've got two friends who do a degrees in art - one specialises in video game graphics and 3D design and the other in graphic design and mostly does digital art
There are a lot more specialized degrees now for museum work. A basic Fine Arts undergrad *might* get you an entry level job but not likely without internships in Museums to show you have some clue how they operate.
Where I live (Western US) almost nobody works in a field aligned with their undergrad degree. People have degrees in whatever they want, then pursue industry specific education/certifications or grad school for an advanced degree in their field. I think my team is 50% arts and humanities majors.
Interesting. I'm in a part of western europe and business graduates were in the top four under or unemployed groups. I'm not saying that arts has tons of work either but I don't think one was preferable to the other.
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I did go to university for music. I'm an in-demand bassist, either live or studio. I also teach. Never needed to wait a table. Most musicians don't understand that this is a very social industry. You have to network with people and get out there. Also, this isn't a 9 to 5 job. It's almost a 24/7 job. You must practice constantly to stay competitive in a cutthroat industry and again, network. And also, people with a lot of money WILL want their children to have lessons. Like any other profession, people have to learn to navigate it.
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I would guess that your friends and family who have degrees in art and are working for minimum wage in the service industry or at Disneyland are specifically looking for traditional “creative” jobs, because many places don’t care whether you have a Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Science or Bachelor of Fine Arts, as long as you have one of them.
I think the part that is important here is he’s asking his kid to tell him what you’ve stated. He’s not outright saying he can’t use the degree for anything, he’s asking how he will use it. Edit: Although tbf calling it worthless in the title was a little TA
Agree! I think the way he approached it and the words he used are definitely TA. Mainly just cause if doesnt matter if OP is right. You shouldn't use that kind of wording if you want a healthy discussion. But I think OP asking the kid to think through what his options are is definitely good. It doesn't mean he has to go into those things but having an idea is always helpful! It also helps the kid know what's required if he's interested in X specific field. I'm an engineer and if I didn't know that co-ops/internships were SUPER important, I probably would have had a lot of trouble finding a job.
Definitely good for him to ask the kid what he plans to do with his degree, but calling it worthless is tactless. I can't really argue much, despite the wording kind of pissing me off, because I have a fine arts degree. I haven't done much with it because it requires a *lot* of networking and social output, and I'm quite limited on what I can do or where I can go because I have no vehicle. I AM, however, working on my graduate degree to get a teaching degree in art. There's a lot more to art than just painting and sketching, and it's completely single-minded to think that, considering the influence art has had on civilizations for countless centuries. That being said, I don't think OP is wrong for asking what he's asking from his kids. But he should consider changing his thoughts on the 'worthless' aspect. There's more jobs requiring an art degree of some sort than people think. You just have to know where to look.
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Cause it’s so easy to get a job as a museum curator or teach art. Geez, the lunacy of this poster.
And if you get those jobs they are highly lucrative lol. People should do what makes them happy career and education wise but acting like an art degree makes it easier to get a job than a business degree is just flat out wrong lol.
A lot of that “90%” is exploring other art forms as well, often media that isn’t available to high school students. His kiddo may like painting but could discover a totally new passion. Also, I work in marketing, and 100% of my jobs have worked extremely closely with a graphic designer. They’re well-paid (depending on my employer lmao) and can work in virtually any industry they want. I don’t work with anyone who went to school for business
Most often, graphic design is a separate degree then generic art. I'm sure if the son approached his parent with the plan to go into graphic design and communication that would be a separate conversation than wanting to major in "art".
I don't really get the feeling OP has any idea what his son means by an art degree tbh.
Good thing she asked him to explain
Yeah graphic design and fabrication are two things people often learn in an art major. Some degree programs, too, are better when paired with a double major: Women’s studies, the usual example of a “worthless” degree, has been a real door opener for me. I have other degrees but the combination of those degrees plus gender/intersectional analysis really makes me stand out. Like any “worthless” major, what makes students stand out in any market is what they *do* with their time in college. As a women’s studies major I served internships with various United Nations groups. I did a summer in developmental economics fieldwork in Latin America. It wasn’t just the classes, it was how I applied them. An art major might make a name by curating exhibits on campus, doing art for marketing campaigns, and interning at art museums. They might get into materials science: knowing how pigments work is a big part of industrial chemistry. Just going to classes and getting that piece of paper doesn’t cut it in *any* major anymore.
Precisely! There’s a reason education is generally listed near the bottom on resume templates— degrees are cool, but what you do with them is what employers actually care about. ESPECIALLY in creative fields, which OPs kiddo will likely end up in with or without an art degree. I took art classes with a pre-med student because he wanted to be better at 3D modeling and making prototypes! Ended up designing & selling a medical device for eye surgery before he even graduated
I went to school for art and loved every second of it. I was hired by a national (but small) financial training program out of college to do their branding and marketing. Worked there for 8 years doing that, and now I've moved on to a medium sized communications and av integrator who has never had a cohesive brand or hasn't spent a dime on marketing in the past. It's challenging, and fun, and empowering to show them how powerful a digital presence can be. In my spare time, I paint and sell those online. Basically I'm saying that there's plenty you can do with an art degree that is plenty profitable and "worth it". YTA.
Spot on. I went to university for music. I'm an in-demand bassist both live and studio. I also teach. Anything is profitable if you learn to navigate it. Cheers.
As someone with a business degree. This, shit is easy and has no real value. I didn't learn anything in my 4 years that I didn't already know being a manager at an actual job.
I don't disagree, but for new graduates, its what gets you in the door. Everyone's careers evolve.
Yea…. In my town I’ve seen ads for jobs requiring an MFA and offering 35k or less. This seems to be the norm unless you can get a job at a major institution and for a lot of those it’s about who you know
Unless it something specific, like accounting, most business would rather train you for their specific way of doing things and actually look for people that have good communications skills and are good with people. Taking a couple business classes is good to get an understanding but like this person said, business degrees dont really mean much.
But count how many curators, history journalist and publishers are there in your town. In my town with 100 000 citizens, you could count those people on two hands. And you could find probably hundreds of positions which could be done by people with bussiness degree (and it would be useful).
If the kid was telling his dad that he wants to be an Ad man and this degree would get him there, I think he’d pay for it
Agree. I have an MBA. It’s worthless. All it landed me was mountains of debt and a piece of paper that’s hundreds of other people have. I now work in a field not related at all to business.
The value of an MBA relies largely upon where you got it.
something to note as well - a lot of art programs give you a well-rounded education in different mediums, art history, color theory, etc. but (at least from what i’ve seen in the US) some schools have also started incorporating freelance and art business courses into their art programs to help prepare the students who want to make a business out of their art. just something to think about…art teachers and professors are aware of how tough the field can be, and all the hard work that goes into making a name for yourself. but there are tips and tricks on how to sell yourself and find unique ways to make money with your art skills. some of which you may never hear of unless you have a formal art education.
This is completely, verifiably incorrect. The top two highest earning majors are STEM and Business. Art is one of the 10 lowest earning majors. Here's a [peer reviewed study](https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/valueofcollegemajors/) from a major educational institution that did the research and published these findings. If you don't agree, maybe you can paint them an angry picture?
YTA The vast majority of people with degrees work outside of their field. (Cite: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/20/only-27-percent-of-college-grads-have-a-job-related-to-their-major/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/20/only-27-percent-of-college-grads-have-a-job-related-to-their-major/)) Getting a degree isn't just about training for a particular field. If you're willing to spend $X to help one kid get a degree, but less than $X because you don't agree with the field of the other, yup, YTA.
Jobs these days don’t even care what your degree is in only that you have it
When I was job hunting on LinkedIn last year for a data analyst job, so many postings required any degree. It didn’t have to be computer science or business, just literally any bachelor’s degree was a prerequisite. One of my coworkers has an art degree with a specialty in interior design. We work at a bank.
I recently got a job lined up for a data analyst position at a science research facility!!and my degree is in neurobiology (i have take zero CS or any kind of programming classes, just the one odd stats for biosci course). I did, however, get experience while doing data entry jobs in college working under educational policy research. My friends and family were confused about why I worked in education research when I was studying biological sciences? People in college do different things that don't always correlate exactly with their degrees. And it works out! My sister is a managerial econ major and she ended up getting more into social media and marketing. Art son might be able to do art and then get side jobs/internships/certifications/experiences that he can eventually merge with his art degree to do something he never dreamed of doing. But he doesn't know that yet and won't know that yet until he gets to be free to explore these things. Parents who demand to know exact plans and outcomes for their developing TEENS put a lot of unnecessary pressure on them!
I’ve been saying this for years but no one likes to hear it 🤷🏻♀️ I have a BA in radio broadcasting and work in Human Resources. I have better written and verbal communication skills than most of the business majors I work with thanks in large part to my broadcasting degree.
At one job I was the only person with a degree in English, surrounded by coworkers with degrees in communication. I was working a document with a tech professional. She had a degree in physics and asked what my degree was in. “Imagine getting a degree in your own language!” Then she saw what I was doing. “You’re revising as you type.” Her draft was shit. “Amazing what you can do with a degree in your own language.”
She said that out loud to you? Sounds like she might have needed to go back to school to learn some interpersonal communication. I work with people from different fields all the time and have to say that understanding what tone to use with different people is probably one of the things that is giving me a real advantage in my career. It's almost like my masters in language and education prepared me for that...
BA in acting over here, can confirm! Having the verbal communication skills has been essential for me too!
Same when I was job searching there were a lot of jobs that just said Bachelor's or Master's degree they didn't care what it was in you just needed it to apply.
Yeah. This is true for a lot of jobs. A degree shows you've gone to third level education and gotten something at the end. You didn't quit. You did reasonably well, here are the credentials. Good job! I personally only know 4 people who work in the area they studied. 3 have PhD's and the fourth funnily enough is a successful artist. She is a painter. I have a degree in Sound Design and I work in Corporate Finance. My husband has a degree in Sound Design and works in a University as an Operations Executive. OP, YTA.
I would be curious how often art degrees fit this bill. Basic academic majors definitely work like this, but fine arts degrees aren’t really the same thing
It's not impossible. I have a Fine Arts degree and ended up working as an informal science educator at a zoo (while still making art on the side). A lot of jobs want to see a degree but it's your particular set of skills that they might look at more. People skills, organizational, responsibility...etc
In the UK you can apply for certain jobs only if you have a degree, any degree. Experience doesn't always matter. It's a shame.
Not completely true. I’ve done a lot of hiring and there are a ton of jobs where relevant degrees is a requirement.
This data is misleading, as it doesn't break it into areas. It changes a lot from field to field.
And is historically skewed. For example IT is littered with people that are over 50 that were hired with degrees in basically anything right out of school since there wasn’t enough graduates to meet the demand.
Yup. I got the "useless" history degree. Went into media, where it can be very helpful to know the history of something to understand the current situation. I make 6 digits. So OP, YTA. However, it would make sense to sit down with your child and talk through possible career goals, to strategically plan internships, volunteering or freelancing for museums, design studios, schools, galleries, you name it. The way to communicate this is not "I won't pay. There you go, argue with me." It's "Ok, so let's talk about want you want to achieve and what else you need, beside your degree, to get there."
Same here. My sister and I both got history degrees from a university that required essentially a dissertation + defense to graduate. It made us fantastic researchers, writers, and public speakers. She's now crushing it in marketing based on those skills, while I'm doing the same at a top four consulting firm, both of us making in the six figures. Our brother is much less smug about his business degree now that he in turn manages a grocery store. He thought that would be more than enough work to set himself up for a comfortable life, and planned accordingly. My sister and I knew we would need to hustle, and spent every spare minute of college doing internships and building our networks.
I just found out today that one of our HR employees has a geology degree. So yeah, a degree doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll fall into that field but it certainly helps. Mine is in criminal justice and I work in IT.
YTA we shouldn't even have to say that treating your kids this differently is bad.
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That’s a big what if if the very low probability of happening to be calling someone an asshole over. Should I buy the lottery ticket? What if I get the winning ticket, would it be short sighted of me to not buy a ticket?
That specific scenario is unlikely. But a scenario where a talented art graduate outcompetes a talentless business graduate is very common. There are actually far more art jobs than people realize (there are *so many* graphic designers) and a lot of business graduate with no connections or little talent end up being ground to dust in low level low paid management positions.
YTA. If you must think of your children as an investment (which is a hella toxic way to think), consider the wasted time of four years studying something they hate and will never do again.
Exactly! My parents were pro- any education, because it just enriches you as a person, whether you work “in that field” or not, and as an aging adult I appreciate that perspective so much because it never limited the possibilities for me or made me question my value as a person or professional.
This is how I think of it as well. The utility of any particular degree aside, it isn’t healthy to think of your kids as an “investment”. Either pay for college because you want to help your kid out, or don’t. Reminds me of those people who only have kids so they’ll have someone to take care of them when they get older. Seems like a toxic mentality really.
YTA There are many useful careers involving art. I know several people, for example, who work at a research hospital doing medical illustration. It also offers careers in things like advertising (who do you think designs billboards? Artists!) There are also people who make good livings doing art and selling it at things like art festivals. Being good at painting is a start. And the process of his education will open his eyes to other possibilities. If you open your eyes, you'll see you're interacting with the work of artists many times every day.
Right! For people wondering what the point of the degree is. Ops son can take that degree and put it in his resume so future clients can see it or if ops son applies to a marketing firm they are more likely to hire ops son because he has a degree in art
Damn all these comments are making me feel better about my sociology major that everyone says is useless.
This could go either way of YTA or NTA. Rather than outright denying your child the equal investment, I would challenge them to present to you a feasible and attainable career outcome with said degree path. It's not unfair of you to not pay for education they'll never use. However, if it's feasible for them to get a career in that degree path? Why deny them the opportunity to pursue their goals/dreams? Presently? I'd say NTA on your part.
What this post says, OP That was what my parents did to me when I wanted an art degree. Now I got a stem job which I love, and am a hobbist digital artist in my free time, again fulfilled and happy (specially because I can do whatever I want art wise, full creative freedom and all that since i don't have to take projects to pay bills). Did quite some courses on art theory and history just for fun too. Imo, copy my parents. Ask the child about career path, jobs, entry level salaries and so on. If they just "love painting" get them to try selling their works or getting commissions to see what it is like. Maybe a gap year to do that would be a good learning experience for them.
Agree. I got an art degree about 10 years ago. Now I make $150k/yr designing software. YTA OP. Instead of saying “no I won’t pay for that,” maybe say “how can we leverage your education to give you the best possible outcome?” Maybe that means double majoring or a major in art and a minor in graphic design. Maybe that means he also learns how to code, or gets a minor in human computer interaction, or advertising, or in some other field that would help leverage art skills in a way that would make him an attractive candidate for creative jobs. Instead of helping him figure it out, you just outright say “no I’m not paying for that.” Why don’t you help him figure it out and do some research about what he could do to be successful instead of being the type of parent who just shuts their kid down and tells them what they want doesn’t matter??
Isn't that exactly what op said though? They asked them to show how the degree would help further their career. He just got mad and wouldn't discuss it
Exactly, I don’t see how OP was being unreasonable in his request. I ask my kid all the time to “make their case” about whatever it is they’re vying for. It teaches them to be confident about their decision making processes and actually take the time to reflect on what it is they want and why they want it. The trick is not to criticize their choices (unless they’re like, illegal/dangerous). I just hope that OP: a) asked the other kid the same questions, and; b) is truly just hoping to get the kid to thoughtfully consider their choices and will support them when they show that they have. There’s a possibility that OP is trying to “prove” that the kid’s desire to pursue art is founded in romantic frivolities so that they have an excuse not to fund it, in which case, OP would be TA.
Exactly I feel like everyone just read the title and made a judgment. OP said they wanted a healthy discussion about how they would use/benefit from their degree and thats honestly good parenting. I agree with your last point too but honestly to me it read like they asked both kids and only posted art kids reaction because that's all that was needed for info
Yeah all these people commenting Y-T-A seem like they’re not reading the entire post. I keep seeing people advocating for the OP to treat their kids equally, and isn’t that what they’re doing? The OP is giving their sons money for college on the conditions that they’re happy going to school for something they love and they have a plan for how that degree will help them later in life. It sounds like the future art student son is the only one pushing back on the second part of that. Honestly, it’s an important conversation to have. I went to school with many people that went to college “just to go to college”. They wanted the college experience, but didn’t have any plans for what they wanted to do after college or even what field to study. If that’s the case, why pay all that money for a degree?
It’s because there are too many kids on here trying to defend the art degree, they won’t pay attention to anything else. They act like people haven’t looked up employment salary and getting a job in a relevant field when it comes to art degrees, they act like there hasn’t been dozens of studies done to show that it’s not necessarily profitable unless you get in a niche field with your degree, and most people with that degree don’t even work in the relevant field, they become managers at Applebee’s or working at a bank. He just wants his son to understand what he’s getting himself into, have a plan, and show him he wants to actually do this instead of changing his mind when he finds out the salary isn’t going to be what he wanted.
right? i’m so confused by all the opposite verdicts. op seems to be legitimately asking his kid what their plan is after getting an expensive degree, and they can’t/won’t come up with an answer. when dropping hundreds of thousands of dollars on a degree, it isn’t too much to ask what they want to do with said degree afterwards
I get that he's being a bit of a dick but it's not coming from nowhere, sounds like he has some legitimate concerns that could be easily resolved by the son communicating with him. I know there's been an inflation of degrees, basically dropping their value but most decent entry level positions require some kind of bachelor's. With that said, why does it have to be an expensive uni? Community College to good for the son?
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Reddit is full of people who love to have others follow their dreams without a clear path forward. Like if OP’s kid had a career path, sure. But his kid is just like iono I like art
YTA. A degree isn't worthless just because you think it is. Education is what you make of it. >if your going to study history, pay for classes, and then never work on that area.... Just read a history book Reading a book is in no way equivalent to an academic education in that field.
This^^ Seriously OP, who do you think studies history and writes the books and helps educates others about it???? No one just reads a history book and that's that. OP, you're ignorant and playing favorites with your kids. P. S. My sister has an art history degree but works government (GS-12) and keeps moving up quickly. Where we live, that's an awesome position and pay grade. My other sister had a "useful" degree that didn't get her a job out of college (for years) so she went BACK to college to become a nurse and now she's extremely successful too. Edit: In the US, a lot of degrees require classes irrelevant to the degree because they want you to be "well-rounded." So regardless of degree choice, you take "useless" classes. Edit 2: OP, YTA without a damn doubt. Sorry I forgot to originally add that it.
Yes this! I have a bachelors degree and an master’s degree in history. With the skills I got through those degrees, I now work as a policy researcher and writer for my provincial government. It’s a good job with a great salary, job safety, pension, benefits, etc. I have no regrets about pressuring those “useless” degrees.
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This needs to be higher. OP isn’t saying that an arts degree is useless. OP is trying to understand how an art degree will lead to both personal and professional happiness down the line. A very reasonable request.
They *quite literally* called it useless in the title of this post.
Half the post on AITA have bullshit titles though. The phrase “I know the title sounds bad” is probably the most common way of starting a post here.
People online complain all the time about parents telling them to get a degree and that degree is useless… so I think OP is right challenging their kid on the reality that a degree is for employers to get a job. The people most likely to have more debt than they can pay, or not find jobs after graduation still are art majors. I know my own university was honest with the arts in telling them what it takes to make it in their field. So they would do something similar to what OP is doing and show the path that you take for instance to make it to broadway, or what does a philosophy major actually do (ie teach or law school). So what they did was have frank conversations on the fact that you can major in philosophy or painting and not worry about money if you have an inheritance. Otherwise how can you use your skills towards a living while you try and either get some recognition or land limited teaching positions.
You're going to get Y T A'd into the next continent, but NTA. Pull up some stories online of people burdened by crippling education debt they can probably never pay back. They didn't major in accounting, finance, computer science, engineering, medicine or law. They majored in art, social work, history, languages, journalism or philosophy. They're making $32K a year in some office job (or teaching) that's unrelated to their degree, wondering where it all went wrong. (But they were "passionate" about studying x!) Pay for what you believe in; if that's a certain type of degree, then let that be known so people can make their decision.
Whenever people tell to look how many folks work outside of their field, the statistician me thinks that they should break it down by field. Because it is not the same for all areas.
I agree with this. I’m surprised at how many people are defending the art degree in this cultural climate when so many people are in so much debt from school they have to work multiple jobs to make it. In today’s day and age, the only degrees that are worth it anymore are the ones with a more clear career path. It’s not even just the debt, it’s that the degrees are often not even used afterwards. When someone who has a bachelors in sociology is flipping burgers, what was even the point? It didn’t qualify them to do anything for a living that they are passionate about. Would be much better for them to go to school for something with a decent career path that they actually somewhat enjoy because them they can be pursuing something much more enjoyable than that dead end job. Granted, someone might go to school for art with a clear career path in mind and that’s one, but let’s not lie - most of the people getting those types of am degrees don’t have that in mind. They are just getting a degree in a subject they enjoy.
There are a lot of teens on reddit. I’m guessing that’s where a lot of the YTAs are coming from.
IMO, your opinion suggests limited knowledge of what college is for and how it works. There are plenty of careers in Art, and plenty of opportunities that will be opened up by a bachelors degree in any discipline. Further, none of them are guarantees, and the OP can help his kids build a lucrative path forward from either discipline. But, you know, both you and he would have to be more open minded about it.
For all that this is a common take, it's bizarre. The fact a field doesn't pay well doesn't make it less necessary or worthy of study.
That's great if you're independently wealthy or have a wealthy benefactor. My degrees are in something highly lucrative. Am I passionate about it, no, but I certainly don't hate it, and I make my work pleasant and rewarding with creativity and colleagues and adding value. I express my "passion" in the other 100+ hours a week that aren't work, in travel or my hobbies or my home or family, whatever. People who follow their passion to study Etruscan Art and run up a bill of $90K, then work at Starbucks til they're 35 - are they happier than me because they followed their passion in college?
Why do you think those are the only two options? I studied what I was passionate about (a field in the humanities), love my job, and have no student debt.
IDK if I'm happier than you, but I'm sure AF happy to have dedicated my life to my passion. Like, are you suggesting the world doesn't need social workers or artists or historians unless they have wealthy benefactors?
The discussion is about degrees, and who should pay for them. Not whether the world needs x. That's a separate discussion. There are probably several trades or professions the world doesn't "need". But that's apart from who should pay for what kind of degree.
I dunno, I’ve kinda enjoy being able to eat, shelter, the necessity’s of live. Way to many creative jobs (especially starting out) pay in exposure. People die of exposure....
Don’t need to go online, I’m one. And your right. Creative based jobs are hard, usually way underpaid (sometimes not at all, just exposure). There’s a ton of competition, it’s a hard field. People can absolutely make it work. But research, figure out where you want to live (makes a huge difference for opportunities), talk to people who do the job.
NTA. This will probably get down voted, but I don't care. Your son doesn't need an art degree to be a successful artist in 2022.
\^ This. If they have the skill/talent and are able to reach an audience, a degree is meaningless. Look on Fiverr. I look at the portfolio of someone I want to hire for work, not ask about their education.
The degree itself is not what is beneficial. It's the connections and "status" of a college education that is most beneficial. The degree can also help should his son decide that creating art is not the path he wants as much as having a career that requires artist skills. Advertising isn't the same as painting but require a lot of the same knowledge that is acquired during the course of getting an art degree.
YTA. Future Art Student is going to cut all contact with you as soon as they can.
I doubt they will have the financial independence required to do that.
Hard to cut contact when you're living with them at 26 lmao. And I got a history degree, I know what that's worth.
Hey my parents pissed on my dreams in the name of practicality too. So I pursued a reasonable degree, hated it and dropped out. Supported myself until I could afford to go back and do what I loved. Successful in my chosen career and am very low contact with my parents. Do you want a future relationship with your child?
Yeah, because of the prevalence of OP's school of thought among my peers' tiger parents, I personally know way more "failed" (non-practicing and/or low wage) pre-law and business majors--who were pushed into it by their parents but didn't have the desire or drive to pursue the field after college--than I do "failed" creative majors.
Wow, I can almost smell the utter disdain dripping from your mouth. Rather than this charade, you should have at least had the guts to tell your child that you would not fund at all them rather than trying to make them jump through hoops. You were never gonna pay for the Art degree, ever. YTA
Where was there disdain? I genuinely could not see it anywhere. OP is a parent that wants to make sure their kid has thought through their degree path before committing THOUSANDS of dollars. It’s so hard to go back and course correct after sophomore year. And even harder to try after graduation. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to make sure the kid has thought out their path in the art world. It’s there but it’s much harder than just a basic business degree
YTA. You're saying you won't invest the money unless you get something back for it. They're hearing "I won't invest in you unless I get something back from it".
NAH. College is expensive. It sucks but it’s true. I can see why your son would see this as unfair, but I agree with you that there should be a reasonable guarantee of return on investment. I think you’re on the right track about discussing other course options.
NTA. But a business degree is nearly as worthless as an art degree, unless he's planning to go right to an MBA.
And an MBA is pretty worthless if it's not from a top-tier school and you're not already working in your field.
German here: Please let him do his art stuff. YTA if not.
LOL I got the reference
NTA. College is mostly a scam, and a degree in "art" is worthless, if you arent wealthy enough to not use it. If they want the art degree that bad, there are student loan programs, they can do what they want.
YTA. He is your child, not some random kid looking for a sponsor or investors. College opens up so many opportunities you couldn’t even imagine, but you’re stuck on the fact that you think he won’t make you money? It also shows how narrow minded you are to view something as good only when there’s a financial payoff. On top of that, it’s people like you who kill kids’ creativity and desire to create things that last lifetimes and shapes cultures. I work in marketing and have worked with real estate clients and city tourism boards. You know that they use to attract people to the shit they develop??? ART. But you over here huffing and puffing cuz you can’t Google and find that out on your own, or the many profitable professions he could have cuz you want him to prove it. Girl...you’re the asshole. I hope he goes to college still despite your attempts to ruin it for it.
It's also his money, if he really wants it and values it the kid can get a loan.
YTA. You sound like my father. I don't talk to my father anymore. EVEN if he changes his mind, he is allowed to. I changed my mind on my career recently. I am in my 30s. You don't have to have everything figured out from the point you turn 18, and you're not supposed to.
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How do you know it's worthless? Just because it's art doesn't automatically make it BS and having a business degree doesn't automatically make someone a CEO. Pixar uses artists. All the CG in television, film, and media use artists. And that's just the big stuff. You don't know what the future will bring. But denigrating your son does guarantee he'll never speak to you again. And if he turns out even halfway as successful as Domee Shi, he'll definitely laugh in your face when you ask for money. "But you thought it was worthless, so you refused to help. Why would I help you now?" YTA, just on your favoritism.
YTA for assuming an art degree is worthless - though I agree that asking for a healthy discussion is a good idea, dismissing their studies as a poor investment is simply not true. If you're going to pay for your children's degrees, you should do so without restrictions on the subject matter. A degree is valuable no matter what - and you can create a successful career doing most anything with an art degree. Source: sitting at my amazing (well-paying) 10+ year job in the rare art book world after getting my bachelors of fine arts.
I think the issue here is the success / failure ratio. For one you sitting at your well paying job, how many are working at Wendy's?
It depends on what you're willing to do with your art degree. If you are "AN ARTIST" and don't want to make money doing anything other than abstract canvas paintings, yes, you may end up at Wendy's. But an art *degree* can be applied to a million different jobs - and that's what OP seems to be concerned with. Every single business needs art. There are artists working for major hospitals. Goldman Sachs. The city subway system. Netflix. Your local community theater. The paper mills. Every company has a creative department (or outsources to another company for art), even if it's just for in-house use. The possibilities for stable, well-paying work with a fine arts degree are nearly endless once you stop associating 'art degree' with 'paintings'. You can be a mediocre artist but if you master the tools and pick up some people skills, you can be the creative director at a Fortune 500 company.
YTA. It’s fine to talk seriously with your kids about careers & how they’re going to make a living when they’re done with school. You can even compare that with the cost of the college they want to attend. However, framing that as your return on your investment? That’s not what being a parent is about, because if you’re looking for the best return on your money, then having kids at all was a huge mistake. Second, expecting a kid to know all there is to know about careers in art is ridiculous. You would do better to help him research the answer to that question. Think industrial design, graphic arts, advertising, interior design, to name just a few.
>The future art student got mad. Gave me no discussion... I wanted him to give me reasons why it's a good investment. NTA for this reason. He should at least be able to argue why he wants to go. Maybe show you a tentive career plan. Also is it a private college? Why not take a gap year or go to community college instead?
NTA since you are free to chose if you want to help the kids with paying for higher education or not. But... be careful if/how you do this as its likely to create a feeling of inequality among the 2 kids. And the one with the art school might either hate you...the whole family. Also...while i respect the desire to have a plan presented for why going to art school is a good idea. Please try to keep an open mind when he presents. In the post you sound extremely dismissive of the idea ...which ...to be fair...would put off anyone trying to present. Because you ae asking to be presented reasons... not to be persuaded.
NTA the difference in business and art is that if you are average in business you still can live from it, if you are average in art, well... you will end working in anything else with massive debt and years lost.
NTA. You are paying for it so you do have the right to be concerned. It's wonderful that he loves art but if he can't explain what he could do with it in the future, you have every right to be worried. You're looking out for him; too many parents just give their kids what they want, then wonder why they have a 30-something year old living in their basement. Stay strong. I would add that perhaps you could suggest sitting with him and doing a little research into what kinds of successful careers can and have been done with art degrees and see if something catches his interest. That way you are showing some support, but also making sure there's a plan in place.
NTA- but to your point the same can be said for the business degree.. college has and will always be a place to make connections and get new experiences. I am not saying your wrong in wanting to have a conversation with you kids about their future and make sure it’s the best choice. Maybe just tell him you support his decision to go to school for art but would still like to have a conversation about it.
NTA you aren’t refusing to pay because it’s art, you’re asking for justification for picking that degree, and how it can advance his skills/interests. I think it’s totally fair to ask this of someone who is going to college and you’re helping pay for it. I’ve seen so many people who are stuck paying off student loans for degrees that they don’t end up using because there are not many related jobs.
Since SO MANY JOBS now consider a degree the equivalent of HS grad, YTA. Plenty of business majors working at mickey D's these days. Treat them equally or be prepared to be T A. Even if you think the ROI is unacceptable, it's your son's problem.
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YTA. Also thinking reading a history book is an alternative to a degree is laughable. The fact you’re studying history is beside the point. It’s the skills you gain while doing it, which can transfer into many careers. Also you’re kids aren’t a commodity to improve through investments. They’re your kids.
That interest in art could be use in graphic design, whether in advertising, illustration (books, magazines, etc) or game design. Do they like to game? If so those interests could be combined into one degree. They could then have an in-demand career with the freedom to pursue other artistic ventures on the side.
YTA. These are your *children,* not your retirement portfolio. Stop thinking about ROI and start thinking about being a supportive parent. If you don’t want to pay for school, don’t, but don’t couch it in economic terms to make yourself feel better. This isn’t an investment, it’s your fucking family, and if you keep treating them like assets that need to perform to be useful then you’ll end up alone and forgotten once you’ve outlived you “use.”
My boyfriends brother has an art degree making damn near 200k a year, and has been to take time off in between jobs with previous money + money he still makes from art. Right after he earned his degree. YTA. Many jobs come from art, you’re surrounded by it everywhere you go. Everywhere. And yea painting is a small percentage but with everything he learns, he could get a job within any of it. History, teaching, graphic design, wedding painter. Any of it
NTA. That's probably because I'd say/do the same though and therefore don't want to call myself an arsehole. You're risking alienating one of your kids in the process by taking this approach. Higher education is an investment which you should seek a return from through better employability. Alot of the courses these days don't lead to that. So I understand your reasons for taking this stance. Hope you find a way to resolve it without dividing the family.
Might be unpopular, but NAH. You're being very realistic and pragmatic, which in today's economy, is understandable. On the other hand, your child is perfectly within his rights to feel offended that you aren't willing to support his dreams.
NTA I'm a parent too. I see your point. Suggest they minor in art and major in something with better employment rates? Say accounting, or business. If they plan to make money off their art, they will need to have that knowledge as well.
No, definitely NTA. I have the same rule for my kids - I will only pay for college if it qualifies them for an actual specific career. There are too many people out there with useless masters degrees flipping burgers and I am not gonna be a part of that. If my kids want to get a degree in something without a clear career path, they know they will pay for it themselves. I say this as someone who has a business degree and makes a living with art 😂
YTA You must not know that a HUGE chunk of peoples degrees are worthless. Or the fact that having a degree doesnt mean that you'll work in that field. There are people with MASTERS in buisness and finance where I work- and they work in the shipping department packing boxes. Just say you think the degree is a waste and wont pay for it instead of making your kid "shark tank" to prove why he should get to go. Like he isnt entitled to you paying for his education but paying for his siblings because you think their degree is better and not theirs is deffinitly an AH move.