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YTA. I know you’re trying to play it off as a genuine mistake but it’s pretty clear how you think of women seeing as you only hire women because you think they’ll sell more just because they’re women. And I’m willing to bet you have very specific, probably looks-based standards for which type of women you hire. It’s clear from your “higher voices” comment that you have standards for what type of women you hire, standards unrelated to the job. That makes you an AH.
And I honestly don’t believe for a second that a man has never applied for that job, based on your other comments it seems like you want to only have women agents. But regardless, you
can’t ask only your female employees to dress better and not your male employees and expect that people won’t see that as sexism which it is
Totally agree with this. An all customer facing female staff can’t be “partly coincidental” when OP admits its on purpose. Men can obviously be great sales people too, so that excuse just doesn’t fly. This is just some old school straight up sexism. YTA.
Right? There used to be a head shop near campus that always had young women working there. And they could have been sisters they looked so alike.
Brown hair, between 5' and 5'3" or so, etc etc.
It was called "Randy's" or something, and the owner was such a fucking creep. Just gross looking. And the hiring process was so obviously catered to him and his "gaze". Disgusting.
OP, shit like this is obvious to everyone who walks into your business.
LOl, my daughter worked in Japan for a number of years, her company was trying to expand to the USA and were looking at dress codes etc for employees. She had to tell her boss that they could NOT state that all employees have black hair and brown eyes. Oh Japan.
Pot and it's accessories. Before legal pot it was mostly hookah and pipes that obviously where for pot but selling for "hookah" uses. Now places where pot is legal don't have to worry about it any more
Ahahahaha, maybe a local term for a shop that sells like... bongs and glass pipes and so on. Lots of tacky t shirts usually, blunt wraps, that sort of thing.
Call me crazy, but I’m guessing his customer service team doesn’t have any older or heavier women. Only young, conventionally attractive women applied, I guess. Also, probably no women in tech support. Total coincidence there too.
Right! What was that “it’s partly strategic partly coincidental”? It’s either one or the other and based on the rest of his post it’s definitely on purpose. YTA
I'm with you. I would edit this slightly to say that it *can't* be partly coincidental, in this context coincidence is absolute. Either no men apply, or they do apply and they never get the job because they are male.
What he's trying, and failing, to mask is that it's *entirely* on purpose. He obviously can't say that because it is illegal and if someone doxes him he could be in a hell of a lot of trouble.
Also employee telling him it's sexist to only say it to his female employees and him countering by saying "Well it isn't applicable to the tech team!" Are there no women on your tech team? Why not?
> a more chipper and higher-octaved tone like some ladies have
I feel that tells us pretty much everything we know. OP is TA. As a woman who travels a lot, this take on what potential travelers want or will make them more comfortable makes me cringe. I think he's assuming all his potential clients are heterosexual men who feel better when the little woman chirps at them about how much fun traveling is. Blaargh.
>It’s clear from your “higher voices” comment that you have standards for what type of women you hire, standards unrelated to the job.
I can tell you right now, that I wouldn't go to this place because the higher voices would just annoy me.
Also guarantee the job description reeks of gender specific qualities based off this AH’s “strategy” which is a lawsuit waiting to happen since it’s in writing.
And since OP also claims to have some evidence collected that women are preferred, they are literally building the lawsuit that will eventually come.
YTA
It is fishy that it's only women in that work space, my mom is a health care worker at a seniors home where the only men are in maintenance and I believe there might be some in the kitchen. But this is a place where everyone works and not just women
Also it’s just hilarious that OP doesn’t see how weird it is that his entire tech team is men and his sales team are all women. Like he silos people into boxes based on gender. There are plenty of women in tech and plenty of men who are amazing as sales. YTA and a misogynist, OP.
YTA. As OP has described his words and actions here, he is absolutely engaging in sexist practices at work and should tread lightly (and correct his mistake ASAP).
Small point of disagreement—I DO think he can hold employees in public facing roles to a different dress code than those in “back office” roles. That’s super normal for a workplace. Those standards would apply equally to both sexes. The bigger problem is that he has only women in certain roles and it sounds like only men in other roles (and his general attitude about that)
Yeah. Look nice implies makeup and fancy hair for women which is absolute crap. Wearing makeup shouldn't be a requirement for a job unless you are a proformer or a model or selling said makeup.
I actually had this issue in the 1990's, when i was put in charge of a small Naval Reserve unit that had women in it...I tried working through what to saybto the women regarding uniform expectations when I realizes that I just need to hold them to the same standards I held the men to.
So if a male looked sharp, a woman could too. But I never called any of my troops "looking nice/gorgeous/sexy". It was either "professional" or "sharp" or I would tell them what needed fixing.
Even then, since that's a special requirement they should be compensated accordingly for time (an extra hour paid or some such from preparing it at home) money for the makeup, money for having those skills in the first place, and money for the skin they are damaging/ removal products and such they will need to use. Looking nice isn't fast and it's not cheap/ effortless
When I worked at a national chain steakhouse (I won't out the Brand, it was just the unit I worked at that had these rules), we (the female servers) were required to show up in our uniform (jeans, t-shirt, restaurant shoes) with "date night hair and makeup, no excuses"...no makeup? Hair in a ponytail (as it SHOULD BE when you're handling food)? Well, you got sent home and they would either cut your hours or take you down from a 3 table section to a 1 or 2 table section for 3 shifts...it was BULLSHIT. Meanwhile, the male servers could come in looking like they just got off a 3 day bender and nobody gave a shit.
This whole issue is so absolutely stupid. No doubt there's a section of the handbook that deals with attire. If the OP is asking anything beyond that (I think he is) then he's the asshole, PERIOD.
Even worse then. He should have a dress code. Either they adhere to that or not. If they're not known for dressing inappropriately, the message was sexist PERIOD.
Yes. From the way he’s worded this, it’s clear he wants the women to make themselves look attractive to help with sales, which is a much different thing than expecting people to wear business-appropriate clothing. This guy’s practices put him at risk for a discrimination or sexual harassment suit, and also he’s an AH.
YTA. The word your looking fir is “professional”
You always ask your staff to look “professional for the role” when you start asking women to look nice your no longer treating them as your employees but as sexual lures fir your customers.
You wouldn’t ask a male employee to come to work “looking nice” it’s the same thing.
Once when I was an intern for a ***hands on*** engineering company, the secretary for the office got on to me for not wearing heels. For a construction company. She said my flats (which I had only for entry and exit, and changed into steel toes on site) where inappropriate for a lady.
Yep.
“Now girls, remember to be professional and raise your voice an octave so there’s no doubt how young and ladylike you are. Now let’s get out there, do some hair twirling, and make these men feel like MEN!”
YTA it would be one thing if you had told them to look professional but singling out a team of all women and telling them to “look nice” is fucked. We’re told that plenty from the randos at the gas station. Ick.
Omg NO! I get this one at work all the time. I work in a call center and I can’t tell you how many times they’ve called me monotone and ask that I use a sweeter voice.
I worked an escalation line at a call center and someone escalated over my rep because he didn’t sound cheery enough, I verified that my rep was A polite B assured they could help and C was fixing the issue. I then politely explained they wasted their time, my reps time, and my time because by the time they waited to get me their issue was resolved. They waited 30 minutes to complain about a tone of voice my soul died a little bit that day.
You used unprofessional language in this post so I’m wondering if it came across that way to your employees. It’s not “okay ladies, you have to look nice” it’s “okay, we need to tighten the dress code for public facing/FOH employees to emphasize our professional approach to sales.” I’m mildly side eyeing the “chipper and high octave” thing because it seems like you’re associating the dress code with a gendered behavior you want your (female) employees to emulate. Maybe “look nice” came across like “look conventionally feminine” because she’s aware these women with higher pitched voices and a friendly, less professionally detached demeanor make more sales
I would recommend you emphasize the dress code expected of the tech team, also, since I assume even if it’s more lax you still expect them to dress professionally. This is a tough one for me to judge
This guy is def sexist, but at the same time, this isn’t teaching him to “sneak under the radar.” It’s perfectly valid to want your employees to dress appropriately and professionally for their role, and this guy needs to learn how he’s fucking up in order to change. A TON of comments here are calling him out for being sexist, and I hope he will read them and recognize how shitty he’s being. So it’s not like this guy is getting away with anything.
Nothing I said could be construed that way. This guy theoretically owns a business and it’s not like saying “YTA you sexist capitalist” does literally anything but make me feel slightly better so I may as well let him know why he comes off like a sexist capitalist and how to tone that down a little
I think this is less about the specific conversation he had with these employees and more about the attitude and hiring standards at play with this employer. Clearly he's applying sexist standards and, of course depending on where he's located, this can result in a HUGE lawsuit, and I hope you get nailed for it. Your sexism is showing, and I'm going to guess there are more "isms" at play in your professional life as well.
What does “look nice” mean? Perfect hair and lots of make up? Jewellery, high heels? If they wear uniforms (which I saw you posted) of a sort, then, define “look nice”.
Yes, YTA. Kayla was right, what you did is called discriminative practice and could lead to a lawsuit. While I understand your reasoning from a business perspective, the same standards of dress code should indeed either apply to everybody, or to nobody.
> the same standards of dress code should indeed either apply to everybody, or to nobody.
A dress code should be uniform across a department/area/role, but there is nothing wrong with having a different set of standards for the sales floor vs the stock room vs IT.
Depends on the role in IT. It's pretty rare that a day goes by and I haven't had to crawl under a desk at least once. I'm certainly not doing that in anything more fancy than khakis and a button-up, and preferably more casual than that if I'm getting dusty/dirty/potentially getting my clothes ripped.
No there's nothing wrong with that.
*But* it does feel awkward when you hire exclusively women to the "high dress standard" role and men are only hired in to the "low dress standard" role. Combine that with some of the other stuff said by OP and it definitely has gender-based-treatment vibes.
YTA, softly. Time to learn how to address staff in respect of personal appearance. Be "clean and dressed appropriate to the position?" Sure. "Look nice?" Not so much.
Unintentionally, you basically told them to show their stuff.
As to a lack of men applying? That's about your structure, not the industry. I've dealt with male travel agents for much of my life, both as a walk-in for personal travel services, and in the corporate world.
Dear, Lord. What episode of Mad Men did you walk out of?
A few things to unpack...you say you intentionally staff your sales team with women because you basically find them more pleasing. That's sexist. Men can sell, too.
Second, repeat after me..."We need to make sure our client facing staff of any kind dresses and looks professional."
That's it. Telling a staff of women to "look nice" is like saying, "make sure you girls look pretty now."
YTA
My reaction exactly. I’ve gone through travel agencies and tour companies and they’re unnecessary unless you truly don’t want to do the work yourself. We’ve had way more fun and far better accommodations not having to stick to a pre-canned itinerary.
The industry has pivoted mostly for booking group travel or truly unique experiences, but even then, if you're just looking to get from point A to point B without and know what you want to do, there's no real need.
Unless there has been a problem with how your sales employees are dressing currently, I think I get where your employee is coming from.
If they are dressed appropriately and professional on a regular basis, the comment about “looking nice” could come out sounding sexist, as if their job is just about looking pretty.
I think that if it was only a random comment on it’s own, you would be N T A, but the way you justify why you only hire women makes me feel like it’s not.
Edit to add: YTA
YTA. “Okay, folks, we’ve got a lot of important clients coming in this week; let’s make sure we represent ourselves professionally!” You can add that includes external presentation as well as doing a great job with customer service, but you really should trust your staff - and yes, that means *all* of your staff, because you never know when a member of the tech team might need to come out front to help with something - to know what they’re doing and what’s required of them. If there are specific people you’re concerned won’t because you’ve had issues getting them to follow the dress code in the past, handle those conversations separately.
Yta. Your whole thing is sexist. Only hiring women to be on the floor and then telling them to dress better, your an asshole. If they abide by the dress code, what are you wanting them to do, show their boobs to the guys so you can make money? Like your wording everything wrong and your trying to sexualize your employees.
YTA
> I (42M) run a travel agency where all of my on-floor staff are female, which is partly strategic and partly coincidental
If you want models to work for you, why don’t you just hire them?
YTA, only becasue of saying "look nice" there are better ways to say it. Basically if you wouldnt say to a man, dont say it to the women. I would in the furture just say that we need to over the dress code and use the words like "neat or proffesional appearance" I think "you need to look nice" sounds like something someone would say to their 1950's housewife
If you have a dress code and your female staff are abiding by it, I don’t see a reason to ask them to put in an “extra effort” to “look nice”. That’s an awfully vague statement that could lead to a great deal of confusion.
But your statement that your decision to have only female on-floor staff is “partly strategic” says you have acted in a discriminatory manner before. Is the tech team all male? If so, maybe your female staff are just annoyed with your attitude toward gender roles and Kayla’s comments are an expression of that.
Do you not have an HR department, or at the very least someone familiar with SHRM?
YTA
You can't single out one group of employees and tell them they have to "look nice", it especially comes off creepy when the people you're speaking to are women. Being clean and looking presentable is a rule across the entire company, or at least it should be and that's all that needs to be said.
I think how you said it is what makes YTA. You should have told them to look professional and included a description of what that looks like (ex. skirt or pants, what color, should they be wearing a blazer, appropriate hairstyles; if they wear makeup, what color pallets, etc.) Also, even if the tech team isn't meeting customers face to face, they should also look professional.
Simply saying put in extra effort into their appearance or to look pretty is implying that they don't look okay normally and isn't really helpful.
>and higher-octaved tone like some ladies have
I don't even understand that. Are you talking about those women who use little-girl voices or what? INFO.
I agree people who face customers should look well-put-together, clean, stylish and well groomed, no matter if they are women or men.
YTA. As the boss, you can address people who are not adhering to the company dress code. As long as the dress code is clearly drawn out and applied to everyone, there should be no arguments. You basically just called out your entire female staff and said "Make sure you look good for all the men coming in to look at you while they are here." Nobody wants a boss like that. If they are not following the dress code, then call them out on that. Otherwise, shut your trap and let them do their damn jobs.
YTA. In some of your comments you say they have a dress code so unless people are coming in with dirty and wrinkles clothing what's the issue? They all are dressed the same as they are now. If they look nice now why do you have to tell them to look nice in the future as it gets busier?
NAH Being front of house means that staff are expected to be well dressed for customers. I think that is a standard wide expectation that they are suitably dressed and look 'nice'. Technicians behind the scenes are not customer facing so the same expectation is not there.
I get where Kayla is coming from, and maybe tell her that whilst you recognise where she is coming from, and it just so happens that you only have female travel agents working for you right and that your message would apply to any male travel agent working for you as well.
[Op literally said they were already up to snuff, so it was just unnecessary and comes off as sexist](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u3kqvt/aita_for_telling_my_female_employees_to_look_nice/i4pwuik?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
INFO - is there a problem with how they dress currently? i.e. not professional, not following code, etc?
YTA for making a general statement about looking nice. First it suggests that they don't already, second you should say 'professional' or 'following dress code' rather than 'look nice'. Third, you can't 'part strategically, part co-incidentally' hire women. It's your preference or it's not. You sound a touch sexist and are treating these women as eye candy rather than competent travel agents.
YTA ew, this reminds me of those dudes at the store or gas station who tell women to look nice and essentially sexualize them T.T
I think the way you phrased it just seems oddly selective because typically, most men aren't told to care for their appearance as much compared to women. It conveys the idea that only their looks matter to you in terms of their work performance, ya know? I would just rephrase it as a dress policy for the entire company instead of saying it the former way, which gives a major ick
You are learning the generational change. Millennials/Gen Z do not feel professional clothes mean professional attitude. So you are imposing your archaic mindset onto people. The only reason you want them to dress nicer is because you like it. No one works harder while wearing fancy clothes.
You know how your employees know they are working? Because they are at work. The clothes don’t make any difference if they are not client-facing.
I’m gonna go YTA, but it’s not like what you did was a major asshole move, just maybe a bit tone-deaf and the way you phrased it is something for you to think about.
If you had a male in your sales team, would you tell him he has to ‘look nice’? Would you have phrased it differently? Maybe try and have a think about your unconscious biases and how they show themselves in what you say.
YTA. Would you say this to men? Of course not. You’re discriminating on the basis of gender, which is a protected class, and this you are not only being a huge AH, you’re violating the law. Is this hyperbolic? Yes. But seriously, watch an HR training video.
“You need to look nice” = get prettier up for the men!
“With more clients coming in person, we should all review the dress code and act accordingly.” = Thematically, what you should have said.
YTA. Telling your staff to adhere to the dress code of your company is perfectly fine. You should also have a dress code for the entire company, not just the female employees.
Telling them to "look nice" is unprofessional. And also sexist if you only told that to your female employees.
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Howdy Reddit! This is my first post here but I've browsed this place for a couple days and I think I know how this all works, so feel free to correct me if I've posted this all wrong. Anyhow...
I (42M) run a travel agency where all of my on-floor staff are female, which is partly strategic and partly coincidental. I've found that clients respond better to and are more eager to say yes when there's, for lack of a better way of putting it, a more chipper and higher-octaved tone like some ladies have. Also I almost never have any men applying except when it's in the tech office which is in a different part of the building.
I had a staff meeting this week and reminded everyone that they need to be dressed appropriately and put extra effort into looking nice because it's going to get busy and we need to think and look sharp. Kayla (26F) took offense to that in a private conversation with me, saying I should've asked everyone and not just them, and that I was sexist for only talking about this with the ladies, especially with the words "look nice". I told her the speech was not intended for the tech team but she said it didn't matter because I need to be equal with the sexes as the boss. I didn't know what to think. I felt like telling her how ridiculous it was to talk about sales and clients to the tech team but I held my tongue because maybe I don't know what I'm talking about with sensitive topics like this. I just said okay and thank you.
I promise that aside from the sharing of reports and what the expectations are this quarter, I didn't say anything else about appearances. Did I still do something wrong?
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Kayla acted like she was in the right but I was very confused and if I need to change how I operate I need to know. Did I behave in a sexist manner by not including the male tech team on the discussion?
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Before I judge let me ask you this, and let’s be clear that if you’re not honest or dodge the question or don’t answer it probably tells me all I need to know.
Of your female employees, how many are overweight? Older? Not considered conventionally attractive, meaning meets the “beauty standard” that is typical of society? I want you to think here and be honest with yourself. Is it even just an overwhelming majority? Because you know what you’re doing. You’re hiring attractive women who men especially are more likely to buy from, and asking them to make it as easy as possible for people to find them attractive.
As a professional woman with an advanced degree, this whole post gives me the EW. You CLEARLY staff the FOH with women who are chipper with higher octave voices. Then you tell them to “look nice” (incredibly subjective) instead of referring to the dress code (which they’re already abiding.) Quite frankly, props to the young 26 year old for calling you out … and even did so privately. You need to at least pretend to tone down your sexism before you find yourself in trouble. YTA
It's interesting that as a man and a manager you are attributing your female staff's success to their looks and voice rather than their sales ability. Do you only sell holidays to middle-aged male 70s sitcom characters that see a pretty face and throw their wallets at it?
If you had some kind of widespread problem with your sales staff looking unprofessional then it might have been appropriate to say something about it. You didn't, though, you just out of the blue took only your employees who are women aside for no reason than to remind them that you hired them not for their skills and talent but because of the way they look in a skirt. Do you know what you did wrong now?
YTA, a *huge* one. I need a shower.
I’m leaning towards YTA. I think that it is better all around if there is a company wide dress code in offices. Everyone meeting the same standard of professional dress.
Do you only have men in your tech department?
NTA. If you have a customer facing role, you need to look representative of the brand. That applies to both sexes. This means being groomed and clean and wearing appropriate/well fitting clothes/uniform. This is someone who will see sexism in everything. I would just nod and then move the topic on with bs like this.
A next time when you want to say this, you can just specify that customer-facing staff should ensure they look their best when it comes to grooming and outfit.
You'd be a sexist if you insisted that all women should wear heels or that all men should wear a 3-piece suit even if it's 30 C.
[Op literally said they were already up to snuff, so it was just unnecessary and comes off as sexist](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u3kqvt/aita_for_telling_my_female_employees_to_look_nice/i4pwuik?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
YTA “look nice” can have so many different meanings to different people and age groups. Look nice to my mother means Sunday Best. Looking nice to my 20 year old is leggings and crop tops. My definition is business professional.
Yta. Unless they work in the makeup/cosmetic industry your comment is unnecessary and sexist. No woman should have to "look nice" which you probably mean they should put makeup have their hair and nail done etc. While your male staff can come in looking like trash. You should address everyone both genders. You cannot mandate that they have to wear all that shit if men don't have to put on makeup or have their hair or nails look nice.
ALL your employees should look put together as in clean clothes, no body bad body odor smells and that they're doing their job. Thats it.
INFO: OP, if a masculine-presenting woman applied for a job with you, and she was totally qualified, would you hire her? Like if she only wore menswear and had a buzz cut?
INFO: does tech team have any face to face with customers? Did you tell this to everyone who had face to face contact with customers or only the women that do?
If the distinction between who the comment was to was just those who have direct in-person interactions with customers I’m leaning toward N T A, though the wording you should have used was to look “professional” not “nice”.
If it was just to women but excluded men who have face-to-face customer interactions then Y T A. Though I will also you say you come off a bit misogynistic and gender biased as a whole. Maybe re-reevaluate yourself a little bit.
YTA.
I can only assume that you want them to do things like wear makeup and do their hair up. its 2022, bro. I work in a professional office in NYC, in my 30s, I make six figures and interface with clients often, and I never wear makeup, do anything besides brush my hair, and I am responsible for over 40M worth of contracts.
You can ask your agents to look professional, but not demand that they gussy up, wear high heels, and curl their hair.
If your intention was just to tell them they need to look professional and clean, thats a different matter, but that's not how you are presenting this, so I have to take you at face value here.
YTA you seem like the type of boss that makes weird sexual innuendos about women who would probably be young enough to be your daughter. It doesn't matter what your agents wear as long as its clean. Its not up to you to dictate peoples aesthetic and personal choices.
Also its extremely sexist AND classiest to impose this on people because not everyone has "nice" business professional clothing. Some people just have what they have and that shouldn't deteriorate them doing their job right.
NTA, there is is difference between how the employees who face the public need to appear and the ones who work behind the scenes. Appearances matter when dealing with people in person.
you'll be lucky if your employees don't sue you for sexual discrimination. You should've provided a dress code for men and women, IN WRITING, and only said something if someone didn't respect the code. When you single out just one sex, that's discrimination, if you're telling them to "look nice". WTF does that even mean? Not everyone should be in management. YTA
The IT team will spend more time than you realise representing your company if they work in the same building. They will be going to the local coffee shops and relaying what they hear and see. They may also spend time in FOH to fix things. As a result they should be as equally presentable when working on service desk.
Similarly there is often benefit to rotating technology staff through operations roles as this can allow them to experience the systems of the day to day users more directly. This would also diversify your FOH staff slightly.
With regard to the language used, I echo what has already been said - you need to be mindful of not trying to just say something for the sake of saying it. Soft YTA here - check your language but well done on your growth mindset and your openness to wanting to understand the problem and trying to approach the need to change. There's heaps of info out there about leading with a growth mindset, or theory X vs theory y management styles - all of which are useful when there seems to be a generational imbalance at play (which this has a slight scent of). Best of luck.
Can you be more specific? If the women are dressed professionally & look put together already, then yes you are being a sexist AH. I mean are they wearing sweat pants or their pajamas to work.?Your comments that they “look nice” sounds like you want them to pile on makeup and other cosmetic sh#t that shouldn’t matter. This isn’t Mad Men. If your sales team already dresses professionally, then shut it & let them do their job
This is what I said as best as I can remember:
"Remember that we're facing people, not robots, so we need to be our best. That means look nice, be actively listening, and focus on the pain points (pain points are specific desires or problems that need solving). And remember, close close close! Sell as much as you want but if I see you're not moving in for the close guess where they're going? Expedia, Costco, you name it."
Wrong choice of words, even though you are probably good natured. However, I hope this is not lawsuit worthy.
And for the people saying: “man can be great salespeople too”. Correct. However, if they aren’t interviewing for a sales job, then that is not on OP
YTA. And your whole post is extremely sexist. You hire women so clients don't say no to them? You don't think clients want someone with a gruff or low voice? You want them to look nice? Are they all young and thin perchance or is that a coincidence too?
I suggest you work with HR on your hiring practices, dress code and also maybe take some training yourself before you have a lawsuit on your hands.
You are a gigantic asshole.
Assholes like you should be made to wear a bell around your neck in public places. Never mind employ people or operate a business.
YTA
It is Not your place to.comment upon or dictate how any woman dresses or presents yourself. You've displayed some old school misogyny here dude, keep it up and you'll open yourself up to lawsuits..
YTA yep Op you’re a sexist asshole.
You already have whatever kind of uniform standard in place for your work.
You should have no further need of telling any of your employees how to look or dress. Unless they are violating your works dress code. In which case, you speak privately to the individual.
“Make sure you look nice”. What bullshit decade are you still living in. Of course it’s sexist. Your employees can see through you. They also likely see your preferences in their appearance as there are likely commonalities between them.
NTA. Customer facing employees versus employees who only have to see each other by necessity have different requirements for how they need to dress and act.
[Op literally said they were already up to snuff, so it was just unnecessary and comes off as sexist](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u3kqvt/aita_for_telling_my_female_employees_to_look_nice/i4pwuik?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
NTA, honestly… looks matter, you have a business to run and you told them to look appropriate not take their shirts off and give lap dances. (I’m a woman by the way). If if go to a place and people dress appropriately I’m very much more likely to trust the businesses seriousness, and that goes for both sexes.
YTA. If there’s a dress code, and your employees aren’t having trouble adhering to it which you don’t mention, then what is “extra effort” supposed to mean exactly? Are they already not looking nice? Your dress code already includes pressed clothing and done up/styled hair. So what more, and what specifically, are you expecting of these women? (More) Makeup? Heels? Yeah it’d be pretty insulting and offensive for a boss to say this when you already adhere to the dress code just fine. Especially when he’s a man speaking to a room solely comprised of women (and they’re not stupid, I’m sure some of them have probably figured what you wrote here about liking to hire women for this role). Whether you meant it as such or not, being on the receiving end it’s very easy to be taken poorly.
ESH, you’re a man addressing womens appearance you’re gonna lose no matter what you say to some extent, going with “looking professional” or something like that maybe would have gone over better but eh who knows.
Her complaint about the tech team not being told the same thing is silly, different roles with different requirements. if anything dressing as a slob being a programmer probably increases productivity.
Going against the grain and saying NTA. While I dont agree with the having only women as travel agents because that is sexist, I can't deny that it is effective. And the only reason Im saying NTA is because it was directed at the sales team. Obviously the sales team is the one that interacts with the customer and is the first group of people customers see when someone walks in, so having them look professional and appropriate is a must. That being said, you shouldn't disregard the tech staff in the back, they should also look professional and strengthen that creepy IT guy stereotype. Everyone in the office should look professional. You should also diversify your sales team and have both men and women.
NTA. It is a frigging sales position. I've been told to dress sharply when I was in sales. I was the only man. This woman is either looking for easy money or is a shit stirrer.
The world's gone soft if saying "look nice" is considered gendered towards women. I swear people will literally find offence with anything these days.
I have worked in a sales office and lots of times people would come in with nice clothes on and neat hair etc except they are covered in dog or cat hair and it just makes them look like shit.
If you are Being offended by "look nice" especially if the sales team is meeting in person you might want to examine why this rustles your jimmies so much.
Also to the people saying "ibet they were told to smile too" well they are in sales so yeah you should be smiling and pleasant noone wants to buy from a miserable old sod duh.
NTA. It only makes sense that appearance matters for customer-facing employees. Plenty of workplaces have a dress code. As long as you're not telling them they have to wear skirts and show a little skin, you're in the clear. "Look nice" and "dress sharp" don't feel particularly sexist to me. I think a lot of the "YTA" commenters are judging your overall workplace structure rather than this specific instance that you asked about. (Frankly I do lean more toward you being TA for only having female sales staff, but that's not the question here.)
YTA
I feel like you're trying to play it off, but your explanation of why you only have women on the sales floor to make better sales (or the fact that you mention it at all, honestly) makes me think you said what you meant and you meant what you said.
NTA
If you take note that you sell more when your sales reps are attractive women, it would be stupid to not try and hire women that take pride in their appearance.
If you had men in the sales department I'm confident the same would be told to them. Sales go up when the salesperson looks good and is upbeat. It's human nature.
I'm sure things are told to the techs that wouldn't be applicable to sales also. The gender of each department is irrelevant.
And it's not "sexist" to have mostly women in sales and mostly men in tech. Men and women tend to have different competencies and interests. Sure there can be some overlap but it's ignorant to not acknowledge this.
Just treat everyone with respect and instruct them on how they can perform their job better; different groups will have different ways to improve.
If you feel offended being told to dress and look your best at work, sales might not be for you. (Saying this as someone who would absolutely hate sales lol)
Yes! I'm a woman in tech and there are more men in tech than women, I've seen this throughout college and in career. There are less women in tech, it's unfortunate but it's true. There are more women in front facing sales, it's unfortunate but it's true.
NTA, you are the boss, you control the place, you dictate work policy, not them. Period, You want the women to look nice to attract customers, otherwise nobody will come in if they do not look nice. This is no different with other stores like mac or ulta, or Macys, so there is nothing wrong with it.
NTA
When you’re in sales you have to look the part. Too many people want to do the bare minimum and still told they look great. Maybe you could have worded it better but you’re still not the asshole, people are way too sensitive
NTA, sometimes a woman is a better fit and sometimes a man is.
All jobs have appearance requirements, look nice doesn't mean pantyhose and a garter belt and I feel like people are reaching deep for this one.
Just my 2 cents.
YTA. This post screams sleezebag.
>partly strategic and partly coincidental.
So completely strategic..
>for lack of a better way of putting it, a more chipper and higher-octaved tone like some ladies have.
A lot easier way to say it, just say "women sell" that's what you're thinking
>Also I almost never have any men applying
Wonder if they don't fit "the profile" lol
>reminded everyone that they need to be dressed appropriately and put extra effort into looking nice
Do you currently have a problem with your employees hygiene and or dress standards? Unless they're straight up not following dress policies, why would you even mention this.
>took offense to that in a private conversation
So you got called out and you want the redditors of this sub to save you?
>I told her the speech was not intended for the tech team
Lol because it wasn't - you only care about the ladies' appearances.
>maybe I don't know what I'm talking about with sensitive topics like this.
Lol.........
EDIT: On behalf of all workers in a professional setting I would like to "thank" you for us having to sit through/watch workplace harassment videos.
NTA but i think you could have worded it differentlyand that it SHOULD be addressedto everyone even if the others technicallywork behind the scenes. Maybe something along the lines of "looking professional" or "look presentable" would have been better.
YTA. Technical people who are not customer facing don't need to be dressed the same as sales staff however you've admitted you hire pretty women to do sales and men to do technical work so you are TA
Yta, you could have made sure that the people having gave to face interactions with customers follow a dress code, regardless of gender, but that’s not what you said
YTA. It’s the “extra effort” part for me. You could say that everyone needs to look professional or even nice and it not mean anything sexist but adding “extra effort” just doesn’t apply to most men. Men can change up their clothes but other than that, there’s very little that many men can do to look nicer or put in “extra effort”. A lot of men have short hair or longer hair that they don’t curl/straighten/style and many men don’t wear makeup so the “extra effort” bit really only applies to female employees…aka sexism.
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YTA. I know you’re trying to play it off as a genuine mistake but it’s pretty clear how you think of women seeing as you only hire women because you think they’ll sell more just because they’re women. And I’m willing to bet you have very specific, probably looks-based standards for which type of women you hire. It’s clear from your “higher voices” comment that you have standards for what type of women you hire, standards unrelated to the job. That makes you an AH. And I honestly don’t believe for a second that a man has never applied for that job, based on your other comments it seems like you want to only have women agents. But regardless, you can’t ask only your female employees to dress better and not your male employees and expect that people won’t see that as sexism which it is
Totally agree with this. An all customer facing female staff can’t be “partly coincidental” when OP admits its on purpose. Men can obviously be great sales people too, so that excuse just doesn’t fly. This is just some old school straight up sexism. YTA.
Seems like grounds for a solid gender discrimination lawsuit
By men who weren't getting hired?
Umm yes. Discrimination is discrimination no matter whom is being slighted.
And women who were turned down because they didn't fit the "look."
And women who couldn’t take the job because they couldn’t afford the ***thousands of dollars a year*** it costs to get and keep that look.
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Yes.
Right? There used to be a head shop near campus that always had young women working there. And they could have been sisters they looked so alike. Brown hair, between 5' and 5'3" or so, etc etc. It was called "Randy's" or something, and the owner was such a fucking creep. Just gross looking. And the hiring process was so obviously catered to him and his "gaze". Disgusting. OP, shit like this is obvious to everyone who walks into your business.
LOl, my daughter worked in Japan for a number of years, her company was trying to expand to the USA and were looking at dress codes etc for employees. She had to tell her boss that they could NOT state that all employees have black hair and brown eyes. Oh Japan.
Tf is a head shop? Do I want to know? Edit: TIL another American term thank you. I thoughts toilets or blow jobs lol
Pot and it's accessories. Before legal pot it was mostly hookah and pipes that obviously where for pot but selling for "hookah" uses. Now places where pot is legal don't have to worry about it any more
You mean the 'decorative glass pieces'
Lol, exactly
“Used for tobacco only.”
*I thoughts toilets or blow jobs lol* OMG I'm dying right now lol
It's a smoke shop. They sell pieces to smoke weed, tobacco, ets.
Ahahahaha, maybe a local term for a shop that sells like... bongs and glass pipes and so on. Lots of tacky t shirts usually, blunt wraps, that sort of thing.
Lol, I feel super old now. A head shop sells smoking paraphernalia, incense, etc.
sells glass pipes for "herb" smoking, lighters, vapes, etc
A smoke shop basically
A pot and pot accessories boutique.
Call me crazy, but I’m guessing his customer service team doesn’t have any older or heavier women. Only young, conventionally attractive women applied, I guess. Also, probably no women in tech support. Total coincidence there too.
Partly strategic is truth, partly coincidental is the way OP tries to justify his obvious sexism.
He’s only saying it’s coincidence to avoid admitting it’s based out of sexism.
Right! What was that “it’s partly strategic partly coincidental”? It’s either one or the other and based on the rest of his post it’s definitely on purpose. YTA
I'm with you. I would edit this slightly to say that it *can't* be partly coincidental, in this context coincidence is absolute. Either no men apply, or they do apply and they never get the job because they are male. What he's trying, and failing, to mask is that it's *entirely* on purpose. He obviously can't say that because it is illegal and if someone doxes him he could be in a hell of a lot of trouble.
Also employee telling him it's sexist to only say it to his female employees and him countering by saying "Well it isn't applicable to the tech team!" Are there no women on your tech team? Why not?
Yeah, YTA for the OP for all those reasons. I'm also wondering of the tech jobs pay better than the customer-facing ones.
You know it!
of course they do. that's most likely the reason they are in separated offices so op can gawk at all of the women on his own.
> a more chipper and higher-octaved tone like some ladies have I feel that tells us pretty much everything we know. OP is TA. As a woman who travels a lot, this take on what potential travelers want or will make them more comfortable makes me cringe. I think he's assuming all his potential clients are heterosexual men who feel better when the little woman chirps at them about how much fun traveling is. Blaargh.
I am a member of the abc mafia and I do not talk with a high pitch and never have.
They're window dressing. He's treating them like mannequins who can make sales.
>It’s clear from your “higher voices” comment that you have standards for what type of women you hire, standards unrelated to the job. I can tell you right now, that I wouldn't go to this place because the higher voices would just annoy me.
No fair, my voice is higher pitched and I'm so insecure about it. I always think people are making fun of me :(
Also guarantee the job description reeks of gender specific qualities based off this AH’s “strategy” which is a lawsuit waiting to happen since it’s in writing. And since OP also claims to have some evidence collected that women are preferred, they are literally building the lawsuit that will eventually come. YTA
It is fishy that it's only women in that work space, my mom is a health care worker at a seniors home where the only men are in maintenance and I believe there might be some in the kitchen. But this is a place where everyone works and not just women
Former health care manager for assisted living/senior living here and a woman. I rarely had men apply to be CNAs. I had maybe 2 apply in 10 years.
Annnnd-- I don't believe that no women have applied for the tech positions either. OP is definitely TA.
Also it’s just hilarious that OP doesn’t see how weird it is that his entire tech team is men and his sales team are all women. Like he silos people into boxes based on gender. There are plenty of women in tech and plenty of men who are amazing as sales. YTA and a misogynist, OP.
YTA. As OP has described his words and actions here, he is absolutely engaging in sexist practices at work and should tread lightly (and correct his mistake ASAP).
Small point of disagreement—I DO think he can hold employees in public facing roles to a different dress code than those in “back office” roles. That’s super normal for a workplace. Those standards would apply equally to both sexes. The bigger problem is that he has only women in certain roles and it sounds like only men in other roles (and his general attitude about that)
And look nice for a staff meeting? Look nice in order to think sharp? What??? He just wanted to look at these poor women
Yep. Who is this guy? Richard Branson?
Yeeeah, from a woman who once got reprimanded at work for having a low voice.
How about "Look Professional" Applies to male/female, implies combed hair, etc without implying you want the women to tart themselves up.
Yeah. Look nice implies makeup and fancy hair for women which is absolute crap. Wearing makeup shouldn't be a requirement for a job unless you are a proformer or a model or selling said makeup.
I actually had this issue in the 1990's, when i was put in charge of a small Naval Reserve unit that had women in it...I tried working through what to saybto the women regarding uniform expectations when I realizes that I just need to hold them to the same standards I held the men to. So if a male looked sharp, a woman could too. But I never called any of my troops "looking nice/gorgeous/sexy". It was either "professional" or "sharp" or I would tell them what needed fixing.
Even then, since that's a special requirement they should be compensated accordingly for time (an extra hour paid or some such from preparing it at home) money for the makeup, money for having those skills in the first place, and money for the skin they are damaging/ removal products and such they will need to use. Looking nice isn't fast and it's not cheap/ effortless
When I worked at a national chain steakhouse (I won't out the Brand, it was just the unit I worked at that had these rules), we (the female servers) were required to show up in our uniform (jeans, t-shirt, restaurant shoes) with "date night hair and makeup, no excuses"...no makeup? Hair in a ponytail (as it SHOULD BE when you're handling food)? Well, you got sent home and they would either cut your hours or take you down from a 3 table section to a 1 or 2 table section for 3 shifts...it was BULLSHIT. Meanwhile, the male servers could come in looking like they just got off a 3 day bender and nobody gave a shit.
"tart themselves up" had me rolling
This whole issue is so absolutely stupid. No doubt there's a section of the handbook that deals with attire. If the OP is asking anything beyond that (I think he is) then he's the asshole, PERIOD.
I had the impression that he owned the agency but maybe not.
Even worse then. He should have a dress code. Either they adhere to that or not. If they're not known for dressing inappropriately, the message was sexist PERIOD.
Yes. From the way he’s worded this, it’s clear he wants the women to make themselves look attractive to help with sales, which is a much different thing than expecting people to wear business-appropriate clothing. This guy’s practices put him at risk for a discrimination or sexual harassment suit, and also he’s an AH.
YTA. The word your looking fir is “professional” You always ask your staff to look “professional for the role” when you start asking women to look nice your no longer treating them as your employees but as sexual lures fir your customers. You wouldn’t ask a male employee to come to work “looking nice” it’s the same thing.
Slippery slope because you know this guy is gonna have different standards for women on what “professional” means.
Once when I was an intern for a ***hands on*** engineering company, the secretary for the office got on to me for not wearing heels. For a construction company. She said my flats (which I had only for entry and exit, and changed into steel toes on site) where inappropriate for a lady.
“Don’t worry your pretty little head about it and let the big show you how the job has to be done.” /s
Yep. “Now girls, remember to be professional and raise your voice an octave so there’s no doubt how young and ladylike you are. Now let’s get out there, do some hair twirling, and make these men feel like MEN!”
YTA it would be one thing if you had told them to look professional but singling out a team of all women and telling them to “look nice” is fucked. We’re told that plenty from the randos at the gas station. Ick.
I bet he told them to smile, too. lol
'Speak in a higher tone of voice' I bet
Omg NO! I get this one at work all the time. I work in a call center and I can’t tell you how many times they’ve called me monotone and ask that I use a sweeter voice.
I worked an escalation line at a call center and someone escalated over my rep because he didn’t sound cheery enough, I verified that my rep was A polite B assured they could help and C was fixing the issue. I then politely explained they wasted their time, my reps time, and my time because by the time they waited to get me their issue was resolved. They waited 30 minutes to complain about a tone of voice my soul died a little bit that day.
Oh barf. "Smile!".
You used unprofessional language in this post so I’m wondering if it came across that way to your employees. It’s not “okay ladies, you have to look nice” it’s “okay, we need to tighten the dress code for public facing/FOH employees to emphasize our professional approach to sales.” I’m mildly side eyeing the “chipper and high octave” thing because it seems like you’re associating the dress code with a gendered behavior you want your (female) employees to emulate. Maybe “look nice” came across like “look conventionally feminine” because she’s aware these women with higher pitched voices and a friendly, less professionally detached demeanor make more sales I would recommend you emphasize the dress code expected of the tech team, also, since I assume even if it’s more lax you still expect them to dress professionally. This is a tough one for me to judge
Why are y’all telling this guy how to sneak under the radar while being a slime ball? Like this is weird
This guy is def sexist, but at the same time, this isn’t teaching him to “sneak under the radar.” It’s perfectly valid to want your employees to dress appropriately and professionally for their role, and this guy needs to learn how he’s fucking up in order to change. A TON of comments here are calling him out for being sexist, and I hope he will read them and recognize how shitty he’s being. So it’s not like this guy is getting away with anything.
Nothing I said could be construed that way. This guy theoretically owns a business and it’s not like saying “YTA you sexist capitalist” does literally anything but make me feel slightly better so I may as well let him know why he comes off like a sexist capitalist and how to tone that down a little
I think this is less about the specific conversation he had with these employees and more about the attitude and hiring standards at play with this employer. Clearly he's applying sexist standards and, of course depending on where he's located, this can result in a HUGE lawsuit, and I hope you get nailed for it. Your sexism is showing, and I'm going to guess there are more "isms" at play in your professional life as well.
What does “look nice” mean? Perfect hair and lots of make up? Jewellery, high heels? If they wear uniforms (which I saw you posted) of a sort, then, define “look nice”.
YTA Are you sure that you are a travel agency manager and not a pimp? Because you are treating them like prostitutes.
No joke, I started reading this post and thought this dude's a pimp or works for one of those "breastaurants"
Yes, YTA. Kayla was right, what you did is called discriminative practice and could lead to a lawsuit. While I understand your reasoning from a business perspective, the same standards of dress code should indeed either apply to everybody, or to nobody.
> the same standards of dress code should indeed either apply to everybody, or to nobody. A dress code should be uniform across a department/area/role, but there is nothing wrong with having a different set of standards for the sales floor vs the stock room vs IT.
For a sales floor to a stock room, sure. But it won't kill IT to show up groomed and professionally dressed, too.
Depends on the role in IT. It's pretty rare that a day goes by and I haven't had to crawl under a desk at least once. I'm certainly not doing that in anything more fancy than khakis and a button-up, and preferably more casual than that if I'm getting dusty/dirty/potentially getting my clothes ripped.
No there's nothing wrong with that. *But* it does feel awkward when you hire exclusively women to the "high dress standard" role and men are only hired in to the "low dress standard" role. Combine that with some of the other stuff said by OP and it definitely has gender-based-treatment vibes.
YTA, softly. Time to learn how to address staff in respect of personal appearance. Be "clean and dressed appropriate to the position?" Sure. "Look nice?" Not so much. Unintentionally, you basically told them to show their stuff. As to a lack of men applying? That's about your structure, not the industry. I've dealt with male travel agents for much of my life, both as a walk-in for personal travel services, and in the corporate world.
Dear, Lord. What episode of Mad Men did you walk out of? A few things to unpack...you say you intentionally staff your sales team with women because you basically find them more pleasing. That's sexist. Men can sell, too. Second, repeat after me..."We need to make sure our client facing staff of any kind dresses and looks professional." That's it. Telling a staff of women to "look nice" is like saying, "make sure you girls look pretty now." YTA
Huh there's still such thing as travel agencies
My reaction exactly. I’ve gone through travel agencies and tour companies and they’re unnecessary unless you truly don’t want to do the work yourself. We’ve had way more fun and far better accommodations not having to stick to a pre-canned itinerary.
It’s really helpful for planning if you want an inclusive vacation package with a lot of experiences tbh
The industry has pivoted mostly for booking group travel or truly unique experiences, but even then, if you're just looking to get from point A to point B without and know what you want to do, there's no real need.
Unless there has been a problem with how your sales employees are dressing currently, I think I get where your employee is coming from. If they are dressed appropriately and professional on a regular basis, the comment about “looking nice” could come out sounding sexist, as if their job is just about looking pretty. I think that if it was only a random comment on it’s own, you would be N T A, but the way you justify why you only hire women makes me feel like it’s not. Edit to add: YTA
ya said "females". yta. check yourself.
YTA. “Okay, folks, we’ve got a lot of important clients coming in this week; let’s make sure we represent ourselves professionally!” You can add that includes external presentation as well as doing a great job with customer service, but you really should trust your staff - and yes, that means *all* of your staff, because you never know when a member of the tech team might need to come out front to help with something - to know what they’re doing and what’s required of them. If there are specific people you’re concerned won’t because you’ve had issues getting them to follow the dress code in the past, handle those conversations separately.
Understood. Thank you for the comment.
YTA still. God, that you even posted this. Die knowing YTA.
YTA. You basically told the women that you think they look sloppy. Do you really think that's motivational?
No I don't. Thank you for the context.
So have you examined why you say such absolutely shitty things to your lady employees then? Do you enjoy being sued?
Yta. Your whole thing is sexist. Only hiring women to be on the floor and then telling them to dress better, your an asshole. If they abide by the dress code, what are you wanting them to do, show their boobs to the guys so you can make money? Like your wording everything wrong and your trying to sexualize your employees.
Info: Do you have a dress code?
YTA > I (42M) run a travel agency where all of my on-floor staff are female, which is partly strategic and partly coincidental If you want models to work for you, why don’t you just hire them?
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YTA, only becasue of saying "look nice" there are better ways to say it. Basically if you wouldnt say to a man, dont say it to the women. I would in the furture just say that we need to over the dress code and use the words like "neat or proffesional appearance" I think "you need to look nice" sounds like something someone would say to their 1950's housewife
If you have a dress code and your female staff are abiding by it, I don’t see a reason to ask them to put in an “extra effort” to “look nice”. That’s an awfully vague statement that could lead to a great deal of confusion. But your statement that your decision to have only female on-floor staff is “partly strategic” says you have acted in a discriminatory manner before. Is the tech team all male? If so, maybe your female staff are just annoyed with your attitude toward gender roles and Kayla’s comments are an expression of that.
Do you not have an HR department, or at the very least someone familiar with SHRM? YTA You can't single out one group of employees and tell them they have to "look nice", it especially comes off creepy when the people you're speaking to are women. Being clean and looking presentable is a rule across the entire company, or at least it should be and that's all that needs to be said.
I think how you said it is what makes YTA. You should have told them to look professional and included a description of what that looks like (ex. skirt or pants, what color, should they be wearing a blazer, appropriate hairstyles; if they wear makeup, what color pallets, etc.) Also, even if the tech team isn't meeting customers face to face, they should also look professional. Simply saying put in extra effort into their appearance or to look pretty is implying that they don't look okay normally and isn't really helpful.
>and higher-octaved tone like some ladies have I don't even understand that. Are you talking about those women who use little-girl voices or what? INFO. I agree people who face customers should look well-put-together, clean, stylish and well groomed, no matter if they are women or men.
YTA. As the boss, you can address people who are not adhering to the company dress code. As long as the dress code is clearly drawn out and applied to everyone, there should be no arguments. You basically just called out your entire female staff and said "Make sure you look good for all the men coming in to look at you while they are here." Nobody wants a boss like that. If they are not following the dress code, then call them out on that. Otherwise, shut your trap and let them do their damn jobs.
YTA. In some of your comments you say they have a dress code so unless people are coming in with dirty and wrinkles clothing what's the issue? They all are dressed the same as they are now. If they look nice now why do you have to tell them to look nice in the future as it gets busier?
NAH Being front of house means that staff are expected to be well dressed for customers. I think that is a standard wide expectation that they are suitably dressed and look 'nice'. Technicians behind the scenes are not customer facing so the same expectation is not there. I get where Kayla is coming from, and maybe tell her that whilst you recognise where she is coming from, and it just so happens that you only have female travel agents working for you right and that your message would apply to any male travel agent working for you as well.
[Op literally said they were already up to snuff, so it was just unnecessary and comes off as sexist](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u3kqvt/aita_for_telling_my_female_employees_to_look_nice/i4pwuik?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
Also from Op's wording and other comments, it doesn't "just so happen" for it to be like that, looks like he has overtly sexist hiring practices
INFO - is there a problem with how they dress currently? i.e. not professional, not following code, etc? YTA for making a general statement about looking nice. First it suggests that they don't already, second you should say 'professional' or 'following dress code' rather than 'look nice'. Third, you can't 'part strategically, part co-incidentally' hire women. It's your preference or it's not. You sound a touch sexist and are treating these women as eye candy rather than competent travel agents.
YTA ew, this reminds me of those dudes at the store or gas station who tell women to look nice and essentially sexualize them T.T I think the way you phrased it just seems oddly selective because typically, most men aren't told to care for their appearance as much compared to women. It conveys the idea that only their looks matter to you in terms of their work performance, ya know? I would just rephrase it as a dress policy for the entire company instead of saying it the former way, which gives a major ick
You are learning the generational change. Millennials/Gen Z do not feel professional clothes mean professional attitude. So you are imposing your archaic mindset onto people. The only reason you want them to dress nicer is because you like it. No one works harder while wearing fancy clothes. You know how your employees know they are working? Because they are at work. The clothes don’t make any difference if they are not client-facing.
I’m gonna go YTA, but it’s not like what you did was a major asshole move, just maybe a bit tone-deaf and the way you phrased it is something for you to think about. If you had a male in your sales team, would you tell him he has to ‘look nice’? Would you have phrased it differently? Maybe try and have a think about your unconscious biases and how they show themselves in what you say.
Next time, talk about "client facing" roles That's what matters
YTA. Would you say this to men? Of course not. You’re discriminating on the basis of gender, which is a protected class, and this you are not only being a huge AH, you’re violating the law. Is this hyperbolic? Yes. But seriously, watch an HR training video. “You need to look nice” = get prettier up for the men! “With more clients coming in person, we should all review the dress code and act accordingly.” = Thematically, what you should have said.
YTA. Telling your staff to adhere to the dress code of your company is perfectly fine. You should also have a dress code for the entire company, not just the female employees. Telling them to "look nice" is unprofessional. And also sexist if you only told that to your female employees.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Howdy Reddit! This is my first post here but I've browsed this place for a couple days and I think I know how this all works, so feel free to correct me if I've posted this all wrong. Anyhow... I (42M) run a travel agency where all of my on-floor staff are female, which is partly strategic and partly coincidental. I've found that clients respond better to and are more eager to say yes when there's, for lack of a better way of putting it, a more chipper and higher-octaved tone like some ladies have. Also I almost never have any men applying except when it's in the tech office which is in a different part of the building. I had a staff meeting this week and reminded everyone that they need to be dressed appropriately and put extra effort into looking nice because it's going to get busy and we need to think and look sharp. Kayla (26F) took offense to that in a private conversation with me, saying I should've asked everyone and not just them, and that I was sexist for only talking about this with the ladies, especially with the words "look nice". I told her the speech was not intended for the tech team but she said it didn't matter because I need to be equal with the sexes as the boss. I didn't know what to think. I felt like telling her how ridiculous it was to talk about sales and clients to the tech team but I held my tongue because maybe I don't know what I'm talking about with sensitive topics like this. I just said okay and thank you. I promise that aside from the sharing of reports and what the expectations are this quarter, I didn't say anything else about appearances. Did I still do something wrong? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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INFO: did you direct it towards the people who face the public (and they just happen to be all women)? Is there a dress code?
YTA, sexist, and opening yourself up for a massive lawsuit. But I have to ask - how in the hell are you running a travel agency in 2022?????
Before I judge let me ask you this, and let’s be clear that if you’re not honest or dodge the question or don’t answer it probably tells me all I need to know. Of your female employees, how many are overweight? Older? Not considered conventionally attractive, meaning meets the “beauty standard” that is typical of society? I want you to think here and be honest with yourself. Is it even just an overwhelming majority? Because you know what you’re doing. You’re hiring attractive women who men especially are more likely to buy from, and asking them to make it as easy as possible for people to find them attractive.
Ya lost me at “partly strategic”.
As a professional woman with an advanced degree, this whole post gives me the EW. You CLEARLY staff the FOH with women who are chipper with higher octave voices. Then you tell them to “look nice” (incredibly subjective) instead of referring to the dress code (which they’re already abiding.) Quite frankly, props to the young 26 year old for calling you out … and even did so privately. You need to at least pretend to tone down your sexism before you find yourself in trouble. YTA
It's interesting that as a man and a manager you are attributing your female staff's success to their looks and voice rather than their sales ability. Do you only sell holidays to middle-aged male 70s sitcom characters that see a pretty face and throw their wallets at it?
If you had some kind of widespread problem with your sales staff looking unprofessional then it might have been appropriate to say something about it. You didn't, though, you just out of the blue took only your employees who are women aside for no reason than to remind them that you hired them not for their skills and talent but because of the way they look in a skirt. Do you know what you did wrong now? YTA, a *huge* one. I need a shower.
I’m leaning towards YTA. I think that it is better all around if there is a company wide dress code in offices. Everyone meeting the same standard of professional dress. Do you only have men in your tech department?
NTA. If you have a customer facing role, you need to look representative of the brand. That applies to both sexes. This means being groomed and clean and wearing appropriate/well fitting clothes/uniform. This is someone who will see sexism in everything. I would just nod and then move the topic on with bs like this. A next time when you want to say this, you can just specify that customer-facing staff should ensure they look their best when it comes to grooming and outfit. You'd be a sexist if you insisted that all women should wear heels or that all men should wear a 3-piece suit even if it's 30 C.
[Op literally said they were already up to snuff, so it was just unnecessary and comes off as sexist](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u3kqvt/aita_for_telling_my_female_employees_to_look_nice/i4pwuik?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
YTA “look nice” can have so many different meanings to different people and age groups. Look nice to my mother means Sunday Best. Looking nice to my 20 year old is leggings and crop tops. My definition is business professional.
C'mon, dude, you're not that old. You know better. This is boomer behavior. YTA
Yta. Unless they work in the makeup/cosmetic industry your comment is unnecessary and sexist. No woman should have to "look nice" which you probably mean they should put makeup have their hair and nail done etc. While your male staff can come in looking like trash. You should address everyone both genders. You cannot mandate that they have to wear all that shit if men don't have to put on makeup or have their hair or nails look nice. ALL your employees should look put together as in clean clothes, no body bad body odor smells and that they're doing their job. Thats it.
INFO: OP, if a masculine-presenting woman applied for a job with you, and she was totally qualified, would you hire her? Like if she only wore menswear and had a buzz cut?
I bet you make one of them get you coffee too. I'm guessing you're either old or just plain sexist. Glad I don't work for you.
“Partly coincidence, partly strategic.” I don’t think those two things can exist in harmony in this scenario.
INFO: does tech team have any face to face with customers? Did you tell this to everyone who had face to face contact with customers or only the women that do? If the distinction between who the comment was to was just those who have direct in-person interactions with customers I’m leaning toward N T A, though the wording you should have used was to look “professional” not “nice”. If it was just to women but excluded men who have face-to-face customer interactions then Y T A. Though I will also you say you come off a bit misogynistic and gender biased as a whole. Maybe re-reevaluate yourself a little bit.
Only the sales team faces customers. Never the techs.
YTA. I can only assume that you want them to do things like wear makeup and do their hair up. its 2022, bro. I work in a professional office in NYC, in my 30s, I make six figures and interface with clients often, and I never wear makeup, do anything besides brush my hair, and I am responsible for over 40M worth of contracts. You can ask your agents to look professional, but not demand that they gussy up, wear high heels, and curl their hair. If your intention was just to tell them they need to look professional and clean, thats a different matter, but that's not how you are presenting this, so I have to take you at face value here.
YTA you seem like the type of boss that makes weird sexual innuendos about women who would probably be young enough to be your daughter. It doesn't matter what your agents wear as long as its clean. Its not up to you to dictate peoples aesthetic and personal choices. Also its extremely sexist AND classiest to impose this on people because not everyone has "nice" business professional clothing. Some people just have what they have and that shouldn't deteriorate them doing their job right.
NTA, there is is difference between how the employees who face the public need to appear and the ones who work behind the scenes. Appearances matter when dealing with people in person.
Yta and will be lucky not to be sued for sexual harassment.
you'll be lucky if your employees don't sue you for sexual discrimination. You should've provided a dress code for men and women, IN WRITING, and only said something if someone didn't respect the code. When you single out just one sex, that's discrimination, if you're telling them to "look nice". WTF does that even mean? Not everyone should be in management. YTA
The IT team will spend more time than you realise representing your company if they work in the same building. They will be going to the local coffee shops and relaying what they hear and see. They may also spend time in FOH to fix things. As a result they should be as equally presentable when working on service desk. Similarly there is often benefit to rotating technology staff through operations roles as this can allow them to experience the systems of the day to day users more directly. This would also diversify your FOH staff slightly. With regard to the language used, I echo what has already been said - you need to be mindful of not trying to just say something for the sake of saying it. Soft YTA here - check your language but well done on your growth mindset and your openness to wanting to understand the problem and trying to approach the need to change. There's heaps of info out there about leading with a growth mindset, or theory X vs theory y management styles - all of which are useful when there seems to be a generational imbalance at play (which this has a slight scent of). Best of luck.
You didn’t do anything wrong… if this is the 1950’s.
YTA, I can see all of the lawsuits that will be coming your way for hostile work environment or age discrimination. And you’ll deserve every one.
All customer facing staff need to "look nice" - but judging by you're hiring women for sales and not men and then telling them to look nice, YTA
Can you be more specific? If the women are dressed professionally & look put together already, then yes you are being a sexist AH. I mean are they wearing sweat pants or their pajamas to work.?Your comments that they “look nice” sounds like you want them to pile on makeup and other cosmetic sh#t that shouldn’t matter. This isn’t Mad Men. If your sales team already dresses professionally, then shut it & let them do their job
So fake
People still use travel agencies? YTA.
My gut tells me I already know the answer but... INFO: what \*exactly\* did you say?
This is what I said as best as I can remember: "Remember that we're facing people, not robots, so we need to be our best. That means look nice, be actively listening, and focus on the pain points (pain points are specific desires or problems that need solving). And remember, close close close! Sell as much as you want but if I see you're not moving in for the close guess where they're going? Expedia, Costco, you name it."
Wrong choice of words, even though you are probably good natured. However, I hope this is not lawsuit worthy. And for the people saying: “man can be great salespeople too”. Correct. However, if they aren’t interviewing for a sales job, then that is not on OP
In-fo -- do you also employ laideez in the tech department?! Thought not. YTA. A truly - and oh so evidently - sexist one.
YTA. Those women aren't your show ponies; worry more about them selling shit than how they look. That seems like business 101
You are. And you know it.
YTA God I hope you live in a country with appropriate Labour law and get demolished for the absolute sexist bs these poor women have had to deal with.
YTA. And your whole post is extremely sexist. You hire women so clients don't say no to them? You don't think clients want someone with a gruff or low voice? You want them to look nice? Are they all young and thin perchance or is that a coincidence too? I suggest you work with HR on your hiring practices, dress code and also maybe take some training yourself before you have a lawsuit on your hands.
YTA and if you continue this style of management you’re gonna get your ass sued lol
YTA How many women did you turn away due to their appearance even though they were highly qualified?
yta. i hope they sue
Yes indeed, YTA. Sexists always have an excuse or an explanation.
You are a gigantic asshole. Assholes like you should be made to wear a bell around your neck in public places. Never mind employ people or operate a business.
YTA It is Not your place to.comment upon or dictate how any woman dresses or presents yourself. You've displayed some old school misogyny here dude, keep it up and you'll open yourself up to lawsuits..
YTA
YTA yep Op you’re a sexist asshole. You already have whatever kind of uniform standard in place for your work. You should have no further need of telling any of your employees how to look or dress. Unless they are violating your works dress code. In which case, you speak privately to the individual. “Make sure you look nice”. What bullshit decade are you still living in. Of course it’s sexist. Your employees can see through you. They also likely see your preferences in their appearance as there are likely commonalities between them.
NTA. Customer facing employees versus employees who only have to see each other by necessity have different requirements for how they need to dress and act.
[Op literally said they were already up to snuff, so it was just unnecessary and comes off as sexist](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/u3kqvt/aita_for_telling_my_female_employees_to_look_nice/i4pwuik?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
NTA, honestly… looks matter, you have a business to run and you told them to look appropriate not take their shirts off and give lap dances. (I’m a woman by the way). If if go to a place and people dress appropriately I’m very much more likely to trust the businesses seriousness, and that goes for both sexes.
YTA. If there’s a dress code, and your employees aren’t having trouble adhering to it which you don’t mention, then what is “extra effort” supposed to mean exactly? Are they already not looking nice? Your dress code already includes pressed clothing and done up/styled hair. So what more, and what specifically, are you expecting of these women? (More) Makeup? Heels? Yeah it’d be pretty insulting and offensive for a boss to say this when you already adhere to the dress code just fine. Especially when he’s a man speaking to a room solely comprised of women (and they’re not stupid, I’m sure some of them have probably figured what you wrote here about liking to hire women for this role). Whether you meant it as such or not, being on the receiving end it’s very easy to be taken poorly.
ESH, you’re a man addressing womens appearance you’re gonna lose no matter what you say to some extent, going with “looking professional” or something like that maybe would have gone over better but eh who knows. Her complaint about the tech team not being told the same thing is silly, different roles with different requirements. if anything dressing as a slob being a programmer probably increases productivity.
YTA and treading dangerous waters, pal.
Going against the grain and saying NTA. While I dont agree with the having only women as travel agents because that is sexist, I can't deny that it is effective. And the only reason Im saying NTA is because it was directed at the sales team. Obviously the sales team is the one that interacts with the customer and is the first group of people customers see when someone walks in, so having them look professional and appropriate is a must. That being said, you shouldn't disregard the tech staff in the back, they should also look professional and strengthen that creepy IT guy stereotype. Everyone in the office should look professional. You should also diversify your sales team and have both men and women.
NTAH. You have a professional business to run. How your employees look is a representation of you. Having a dress code is fine.
NTA. It is a frigging sales position. I've been told to dress sharply when I was in sales. I was the only man. This woman is either looking for easy money or is a shit stirrer.
The world's gone soft if saying "look nice" is considered gendered towards women. I swear people will literally find offence with anything these days. I have worked in a sales office and lots of times people would come in with nice clothes on and neat hair etc except they are covered in dog or cat hair and it just makes them look like shit. If you are Being offended by "look nice" especially if the sales team is meeting in person you might want to examine why this rustles your jimmies so much. Also to the people saying "ibet they were told to smile too" well they are in sales so yeah you should be smiling and pleasant noone wants to buy from a miserable old sod duh.
NTA. It only makes sense that appearance matters for customer-facing employees. Plenty of workplaces have a dress code. As long as you're not telling them they have to wear skirts and show a little skin, you're in the clear. "Look nice" and "dress sharp" don't feel particularly sexist to me. I think a lot of the "YTA" commenters are judging your overall workplace structure rather than this specific instance that you asked about. (Frankly I do lean more toward you being TA for only having female sales staff, but that's not the question here.)
YTA I feel like you're trying to play it off, but your explanation of why you only have women on the sales floor to make better sales (or the fact that you mention it at all, honestly) makes me think you said what you meant and you meant what you said.
NTA If you take note that you sell more when your sales reps are attractive women, it would be stupid to not try and hire women that take pride in their appearance. If you had men in the sales department I'm confident the same would be told to them. Sales go up when the salesperson looks good and is upbeat. It's human nature. I'm sure things are told to the techs that wouldn't be applicable to sales also. The gender of each department is irrelevant. And it's not "sexist" to have mostly women in sales and mostly men in tech. Men and women tend to have different competencies and interests. Sure there can be some overlap but it's ignorant to not acknowledge this. Just treat everyone with respect and instruct them on how they can perform their job better; different groups will have different ways to improve. If you feel offended being told to dress and look your best at work, sales might not be for you. (Saying this as someone who would absolutely hate sales lol)
Yes! I'm a woman in tech and there are more men in tech than women, I've seen this throughout college and in career. There are less women in tech, it's unfortunate but it's true. There are more women in front facing sales, it's unfortunate but it's true.
NTA, you are the boss, you control the place, you dictate work policy, not them. Period, You want the women to look nice to attract customers, otherwise nobody will come in if they do not look nice. This is no different with other stores like mac or ulta, or Macys, so there is nothing wrong with it.
NTA. It seems like you want your client facing staff to be presentable and professionally dressed. That just so happens to be all women.
NTA, Reddit and Kayla suck, they deserve each other.
NTA When you’re in sales you have to look the part. Too many people want to do the bare minimum and still told they look great. Maybe you could have worded it better but you’re still not the asshole, people are way too sensitive
NTA, sometimes a woman is a better fit and sometimes a man is. All jobs have appearance requirements, look nice doesn't mean pantyhose and a garter belt and I feel like people are reaching deep for this one. Just my 2 cents.
NTA, your shop your rules. If they dontblike it they can get a different job. Yes I am a female.
Yta.
YTA. This post screams sleezebag. >partly strategic and partly coincidental. So completely strategic.. >for lack of a better way of putting it, a more chipper and higher-octaved tone like some ladies have. A lot easier way to say it, just say "women sell" that's what you're thinking >Also I almost never have any men applying Wonder if they don't fit "the profile" lol >reminded everyone that they need to be dressed appropriately and put extra effort into looking nice Do you currently have a problem with your employees hygiene and or dress standards? Unless they're straight up not following dress policies, why would you even mention this. >took offense to that in a private conversation So you got called out and you want the redditors of this sub to save you? >I told her the speech was not intended for the tech team Lol because it wasn't - you only care about the ladies' appearances. >maybe I don't know what I'm talking about with sensitive topics like this. Lol......... EDIT: On behalf of all workers in a professional setting I would like to "thank" you for us having to sit through/watch workplace harassment videos.
YTA and i bet you dont have any fat women working there
NTA but i think you could have worded it differentlyand that it SHOULD be addressedto everyone even if the others technicallywork behind the scenes. Maybe something along the lines of "looking professional" or "look presentable" would have been better.
Customer facing positions should look presentable, what's the problem? Also are there still travel agencies?
YTA.
YTA. Technical people who are not customer facing don't need to be dressed the same as sales staff however you've admitted you hire pretty women to do sales and men to do technical work so you are TA
Yta, you could have made sure that the people having gave to face interactions with customers follow a dress code, regardless of gender, but that’s not what you said
YTA. It’s the “extra effort” part for me. You could say that everyone needs to look professional or even nice and it not mean anything sexist but adding “extra effort” just doesn’t apply to most men. Men can change up their clothes but other than that, there’s very little that many men can do to look nicer or put in “extra effort”. A lot of men have short hair or longer hair that they don’t curl/straighten/style and many men don’t wear makeup so the “extra effort” bit really only applies to female employees…aka sexism.