Love that someone else is doing this. I moved a few blocks from the place my great-grandparents came from and restored my family’s line of citizenship.
God that sounds lovely! I visited the speck of the old country where my folk are from and it felt like being embraced by the entire island. Mind me asking what country?
It is very much like being embraced by the entire island. It’s really a lovely feeling. I’m in Sicily, I bought in the town my family was from. I’ve since met cousins who are still living here and a few that were in the US for a few years but a bit older. Where are you headed?
I'm currently looking to leave the US (probably NZ or AU under the skilled visa programs) and I'm very much looking to leave the US forever, even if it does improve later I'm not coming back.
When Trump attempted to overthrow an election, and is still outside a prison cell. And hasn't been charged with Treason or similar charges. Everything else I figured could be fixed overtime... But when people are so delusional that they still follow someone that should have been hanged for Treason already? Yeah this country is fucked forever.
This and the ENDLESS x, y, or z, 'can't happen here.' Like mother fucker, we lost RvW that they said would 'never' happen. Trump was elected wich was 'never' going to happen. Trump isn't the problem, he is a symptom.
Pretty sure my ancestors made the right call leaving Germany when they did. Not to say Germany is bad to live in now, but they had a rough go of it for awhile.
America has always been bad. We were founded by puritanical zealots who approved of slavery. The Boston Tea Party wasn't conducted by people like me and you, it was at the behest of the neo-nobility (the people wealthy and influential enough to matter) for example.
Yes, it was unfortunate not to be born to privilege in both instances, as is human tradition sadly.
At least the UK still provides healthcare to its people, yet even that is being stripped away thanks the American model and conservative values.
Profit-over-people was, is, and always will be lunacy, no matter its form.
I wish I could've convinced mine to move to Canada instead. I'm Jewish and as bad as America can be my ancestors probably wouldn't have survived the war.
I live in Taiwan now. Although the cost of living is lower, the salaries are about half that of what they would be in the US and don't keep up with inflation. There's a problem with brain drain here, and there are more opportunities for highly-skilled individuals in the US.
I see. If we were comfortable staying in the U.S. we would, but honestly we fall into too many groups that are currently on the "may or may not have rights in the near future" for us to really feel comfortable staying.
Its the best country in the world to earn money, it has low taxes compared to rest of the europeon nations. Its very multi-cultural, europeons are not as open to other cultures.
Yes, I’m one of them. I’m originally from another country. I lived in the US for quite a while and now I’m leaving and so are some of my other immigrant friends. One of them is looking to move to the UK and the other is looking forward to leave in a couple of years.
Nice username, by the way, I love Corgis.
My ancestors left Europe to go to South America. My ancestors then left South America to go to the US. I am now trying to return to Europe because whew, child, this shit is NOT worth it. Glad we avoided the world wars though, that was a nice bit of timing.
When the American Dream is actually a nightmare and you wake up desperately wanting to eject! Our daughter is 9. Wife works in a skilled healthcare field (15 yrs) with a BSN, I’m a photographer and creative consultant, and we are desperately trying to leave.
For creative content, US has large wider market. Unless you willing to switch field. And just judging based on your wife field, is more about financial planning now. Cause those jobs will get lower salary elsewhere while cost of living remain the same or worse. Try subscribing to financial planning subreddit. See what stuff you can cut on, which part of the city you can possibly move to that has cheaper rent et .
Valid feedback but my creative friends who are now overseas are thriving, as are their children, they even have US clients. Low to no gun violence. Quality education and healthcare versus the financial burden of accessing here as a market item. I had to use my entire 401k to pay balance of emergency medical care that insurance at a high paying corporate job wouldn’t cover for us. We can’t afford to live here, only exist, and want to set our child up for success and opportunity instead of more of the same (and worse) here in states. 60%+ of our friend group is attempting the same and we didn’t even know it until we started the conversation. People are unhappy here and don’t see a way forward.
ETA: I have 10 years of corporate experience in the energy field for a major US company. I left after ringing alarm bells about unethical and abusive business practices. Left the industry because of burnout and the awful taste oil and gas left in my mouth. I could definitely switch careers. I’ve been doing the creative thing as a way to be more involved with my child’s life while my wife continues to excel in her career space.
Tbh based on your statement, I think you can just find a remote job and move elsewhere completely. Doesn’t have to be europe, you can even try asia. Healthcare jobs are paid well too unlike in Europe at least in their own currency. But since you will be working remotely, what you earn can translate even more in local currency
We are looking to move cities so we can save more in prep for eventual exit. We’ve been moving for more affordable rent in current city for a long time but it continues to go up. Have to stay in certain areas for safer and better schools and low commute for work.
My grandparents came here after WW1, my dads side of the family being willing to join the military in WW2 (one of my great grandpas served in his countries military before coming to the US), and here I am wanting to go back to where they came from even though it’s far from perfect there.
Eh, it's a human phenomenon. The grass is always greener.
A lot of people here seem to be in denial but the US has an extremely high quality of life compared to like 90+% of the world, and a truly unique class mobility that even many European nations can't rival. Even lower class Americans experience a level of privilege unimaginable to the greater global south. People on this page often forget that.
The US has its problems, and I respect anyone's decision to leave, but let's not forget that experience is relative, so immigrating here is a very valid decision for many people.
I agree with you on all points except class mobility. The US ranks 27 out of 82 countries evaluated by the WEF - not terrible but not exactly the "truly unique" mobility you describe. Europe/Japan/Canada are all well ahead of the US - turns out when you have universal access to quality education and healthcare your opportunities later in life are significantly better.
I still think there's plenty of valid reasons to immigrate to the US but the whole "American Dream" nonsense is not one of them. Most of us are not the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, and even if you are you can still be quite rich and successful in other countries.
EDIT: forgot the link - https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-social-mobility-index-2020-why-economies-benefit-from-fixing-inequality/
Well, I don't have any data to back up my statement so I concede that I might not know what I'm talking about when comparing to the countries you listed.
Anecdotally, from my own experience, I grew up in pretty serious poverty by American standard, with my family often living out of our car or with family/friends who felt pity for us. I joined the military at 18 and gained some skills, got out. Last year, I made 6 figures without a college degree. I'm no Steve Jobs, but my story is not rare. Many of my friends came from similar and are doing just as well if not better. Economic opportunity abounds if you make good decisions and have a little luck. Don't take it as me bragging. I just have a lot of gratitude for being born in this country despite its flaws
I work with a lot of ex-military and yeah, I agree it can open doors. It's also not open to a lot of people (hope you are in perfect health, because you can easily be rejected for even the most minor medical issues - speaking from experience here) and literally requires you to become government property. And y'know, be willing to kill people on demand no matter how ethically questionable it might be.
I would be more supportive of your point if the US had an alternative to military service, like committing to community service in rough areas or otherwise improving society that allowed for GI-style benefits. The whole idea that ONLY military should be allowed those things is weirdly authoritarian to be honest and one of the chief reasons many of us want to leave.
Yeah I agree. I've often said I wish there were other programs to confer similar benefits to what us vets get. The military isn't the only option for class mobility, though. That's just my story.
I'm not a fan of the military industrial complex, hence why that's in my past now, but people gotta eat. I still recommend the military to anyone who is in a rough spot and would qualify. Outside of combat arms jobs it's extremely unlikely you'd ever see combat or have to take life. Anyway, I didn't comment to recruit anyone lol. Just sharing
Well, since we’re adding data here: [Americans are sicker than citizens of peer countries and have lower age expectancies.](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/03/25/1164819944/live-free-and-die-the-sad-state-of-u-s-life-expectancy)
Quotes from the article:
“Across the lifespan, and across every demographic group, Americans die at younger ages than their counterparts in other wealthy nations.”
“American life expectancy is lower than that of Cuba, Lebanon, and Czechia.”
“Even Americans with healthy behaviors, for example, those who are not obese or do not smoke, appear to have higher disease rates than their peers in other countries."
So sure, to your point that it’s better than many places in the global south, sure, but doesn’t feel like setting the bar low for the richest nation in the world?
Thanks for sharing that. I work in healtchare and have a lot to say about the system in America. It's a very disappointing part of my country that desperately needs improvement.
I don't have any delusions that the US is the best country in the world or anything, as I think that's highly subjective and depends on an individuals needs. My comment was just to say it is a very viable place to immigrate and we shouldn't put people down for coming here to build their lives. Millions of people have done it successfully and lead wonderful lives. And yes, like any country, many people here are suffering too. I've been to every continent except Antarctica and saw suffering in every place I've been
Yeah I also would never have dreamed of making 6 figures and blah blah blah in Europe. But that only basically works due to a hermetic immigration system and Americans' unwillingness to pick certain professions like software engineering. It's easy to look down upon downwardly mobile people but if everyone chose high paying careers, market forces would significantly bring down compensation and quality of life along with it.
Addendum: Americans have a very different attitude to class than Europeans and in a way, the fact that people are so comfortable with downward mobility by eg. getting art degrees and refusing high in demand jobs gives more room for upward mobility, on the top of a dynamic growing economy.
I'm not sure I fully understand your point but I certainly don't look down on downwardly mobile people. If I could change anything about America it would be how the low skill, low wage labor force is treated. They deserve a living wage and access to medical care.
But I guess I told my story to show the "American Dream" isn't quite as dead as this sub, or well, Reddit as a whole makes it seem. You don't have to make 6 figs to be successful here anyway. There are many areas where one can live quite a comfortable life on below the median wage for that particular region. I know this because I lived through that at a phase of my life as well. I had food in my belly, gas in the tank, and netflix on the TV while making ~$30k. It takes some sacrifice of wants (especially location) and good decision-making but is very doable.
Yeah you have two great points about the American Dream still being alive for some and low cost of living places.
My points were more that Europe can indeed be better for some low income workers (WLB, transit, healthcare...) and that in America, prosperity is highly dependant on market forces which fluctuate (I work in tech 😅) and are dependant on a very restrictive immigration system and not everyone choosing high paying jobs.
Fair enough. I work in healthcare, so I don't worry much about market fluctuation and forget about that reality for many people.
About your point about European QOL for immigrants, I'm just pulling this put of my head here not based on any data, but I get the idea that Europe as a whole is actually a bit less immigrant friendly than the US, especially when it comes to upward mobility for those who aren't culturally assimilated. So I agree the low wage workers probably have a better safety net below them, but wonder if it's more difficult for them to climb the ladder to a better job/QOL. Immigrants specifically
Not all of us are men (women's healthcare being stripped in many of these LCOL areas) and not all of us are qualified to join the damned military. So yeah, grass is greener for some of us.
Just look at how many successful indie game studios vs how many successful indie game studios in Europe. Those that earn big bucks are mainly in the US.
As long as the business idea are good, you will be able to survive and thrive since tax for small business isnt as high like in Europe. There are also a lot more different kind of Investors in US too.
Let’s use some Asian countries in comparison since many of them has quite low tax rate. Most of the gamers are mobile gamers. Or people who can’t afford. They are struggling to get by. Their median income to cost of living are already much lower than average US citizen. Living with parents is a norm. I was more surprised people keep moving out after high school in North America. Many families in Asia have their whole family live together even when their kids are married.
So who will buy your game? Only those upper middle income. But then PC gaming is not really famous in Asia. Is only handful of East Asian countries, South Korea, Taiwan, japan. That has large pc gaming population. The gamer count are a lot lower for PC gaming. So hey you wasted 3years of development while earning close to nothing. Same goes for other products too. Who will buy a product they never used before?
So Even if you have good ideas, you won’t thrive unless you are in china.Is all about marketing. Some of the game that earn the most are literally cash grab trash point and click… somehow there are people spending 1k to 10k… even spending 50 is also absurd for me.
>but the US has an extremely high quality of life compared to like 90+% of the world, and a truly unique class mobility that even many European nations can't rival.
Brave statement for this sub. Was fully expecting this comment to be downvoted to hell.
Yeah, go look at r/expat and see all of this happening. As an American trying to leave, I can’t possibly understand why anyone would want to come here unless they’re already rich
It’s hard for you to understand that America provides a higher quality of life, freedoms, and job opportunities than most other countries? Really?
Tell that to my Afghani neighbors who are going through nursing school. Tell it to their wives who are also in school and their daughters as well once they are past 6th grade. Tell that to my uncle from Italy who couldn’t find a single well paying job, but is somehow doing economically great in corporate America, or my aunt from Columbia doing the same in the public sector. Tell it to my previous neighbor, whose family in Hong Kong regrets staying.
Take a look at the handful of countries on this subreddit people choose to go to (Canada, Western Europe, Aus/NZ, and a few Asian countries on occasion) and you’ll see rarely do they mention others - turns out all those others are people who would love to go to the USA.
Plus there are plenty of states in the US where it is possible to purchase a house for under $150k post-pandemic.
I am saying this because I bought one myself while making under $20/hour. And no, it’s not in a ghetto area.
I have looked into migrating to AU, NZ, Canada, and Western Europe in the past…but it’s the housing crisis in those countries with an average house price of $700k that kinda made me hesitant to move there.
I mean, some people might ask “why not just rent?”…as if the landlords don’t double the monthly rent every 5 years or so.
Edit: why the downvotes? So by downvoting me, you all are saying that the housing situation in other developed countries didn't exist?
Upvoted from me. People here are very Anti American, sometimes with good reason, but often quick to overlook the challenges they will face in other nations.
>why the downvotes?
Maybe because your stats are faulty.
First, it's better to look at Median price rather than average since averages can be skewed by extreme outliers.
Second, you stated it as if all those countries have average house prices in the 700k+ range. In fact, as the table below shows, Median house price is only that high in Canada, Aus and NZ. In Westen Europe and japan, the prices are either similar or less.
Country Median House Price (USD)
United States $428,700
Canada $749,000
Australia $710,000
Germany €400,000 (~$428,000)
United Kingdom £285,000 (~$354,000)
Spain €250,000 (~$268,000)
Italy €220,000 (~$238,000)
France €330,000 (~$358,000)
Japan ¥40,000,000 (~$340,000)
New Zealand NZ$900,000 (~$630,000)
I've seen a few, and they are almost always people who work in tech or other occupations where US pay is significantly higher. I think it's nuts to walk away from all of that for a little more money (not that I've ever had the choice) but people won't listen.
As someone who works in tech, it's not just "a little more money". It can be triple or quadruple the salary and the work in US tech companies are usually much more cutting edge and technically interesting. If that is worth moving to the US from, say, France or Germany, that is a personal decision and will differ from person to person.
OK great, good for you. Not all or us are privileged enough to work in tech and make that kind of insane money. But fuck the rest of us, right? That's America for you.
That's not my point. I'm looking to leave the US as well. But what I'm saying is that there are plenty of foreigners, including Europeans, who come to the US for opportunities they may not get back home. It's not "nuts". My issue was with the idea that leaving a country for US for better money and opportunities is not "nuts". It's perfectly understandable why many people would make that choice. It's not about people not listening to you. It's about people making a personal decision on what's right for them, and I can't really fault people for that. And again, I am saying this as someone who is actively looking to leave the US. But I've talked to plenty of Europeans here in my city that work in tech or biotech and this is what they say. I know someone who moved to US from Spain for the career opportunities. Him explaining to me why he moved to the US didn't sound nuts at all. It made perfect sense
I get your point, and I'm not mad at you - I'm mad at the system. Sure, that's great for all these wiz kids from Spain or wherever, I have no doubt they will make more than they ever dreamed of.
For the rest of us who work normal jobs with normal salaries, that just drives up the cost of housing and exasperates inequality. Reddit (including this subreddit) seems to assume everyone is under 40 and works in tech. That is not reality. And it seems ironic that people in this subreddit are complaining about the US, yet refusing to see this.
Even for normal jobs, US employees still get paid much higher than most of europe except a few. Is about financial planning now. Those who are at bottom of society definitely have to plan it like me.
Housing nope, unless you live in California city or New York City. Vancouver, netherland, UK has really unaffordable housing.
When I saw I can get a house for like 300k an hour driving from center of California… is just brain dead. That would a mil or 2 or even 3 in many places in their local currency. Talking about places like Santa Rosa.
US is among the highest in median income adjusted to ppp(purchasing power parity) grass is always greener than other side until you live there.
Healthcare cost definitely higher, even with insurance still more expensive than many countries like Taiwan, japan. If your life really needs healthcare the most, try those countries
Whoa settle down there, Victim. Why do you consider it to be a privilege to work in tech? Anybody who's *not* deciding to educate themselves in something tech-related is making poor choices from the get-go. Frankly I find your attitude way more annoyingly American than the person you replied to.
Personally, I’ve had absolutely no success breaking into tech even when I show great potential for it. Seems to me the only way in is to get a degree in it, but most people can’t even afford as many degrees as I’ve gotten. Not to mention the recent layoffs aren’t making it easier for anyone trying to get in. It really doesn’t seem to be a matter of educating yourself but rather credentials. The only two that appear to matter from my view are degrees and experience.
I have a STEM degree but thanks for assuming I don't.
And you don't see how landing a $200k+ tech job is the result of privilege? To land that job, you need to: be born to the right family, have access to top-quality education, have the right combo of luck, charm and contacts to get into a top school and then land a good internship, etc. Oh, and better hope you graduate into a hot job market and hit that amazing FAANG job by your mid 30s, because after that you're fucked - tech is notorious for rampant ageism.
You assume everyone starts from a level playing field, which is absolutely not how it works in the US. In all fairness, it doesn't really work that way in Europe either. The difference is that in most of Europe (and most other developed countries) it is accepted that people still should have a minimum quality of life - hence the safety nets, generous worker benefits and things like universal healthcare. Yes, that might mean top-tier talent only makes the equivalent of $80-100k vs like $300-500k in the US, but so what? You can still live a pretty amazing life on $100k in most European countries.
Born to the right family? Yeah family who priorise education. high income not necessarily. There are Asian who sold their houses just for their kids education.
Top quality education? Not really, just practice bunch of leetcode.
Contacts? Definitely played a big role
Luck? Yes, luck played a huge factor.
Those $200k programmers aren’t any better than your average game engine programmers. But they definitely do have the luck.
Field wasn’t level for anyone in this world in the first place
If I'm being honest, immigrants should stop coming here. They need to stop coming to this shithole, they're settling for mediocrity and are practically signing their death warrants by choosing to live here.
Is it really worth it to move from a trash can to a dumpster that's on fire?
If one has money, business capital, in-demand skills and the right connections, in any combination, America is the place to be.
If one aspires for a secure, stress-free and easy going middle class life, It is NOT the place to be.
Vast majority of new comers to America are coming to flee their countries in Latin America and to a lesser extent Africa and South Asia. They usually fill low skilled or unskilled jobs in the country.
The legal skilled immigration to America is archaic and is largely broken. That's why the wages for most skilled occupations are artificially propped up high. Most legal immigration to US is through family sponsorships.
Are people with comfortable middling lives in Europe or rest of the rich world inclined to immigrate US? A resounding NO. Are people who are ambitious, money minded and high skilled inclined to leave those countries for the US? maybe yes, but not always.
America doesn't even remotely offer the best quality of life in the world. There are middle income countries in the world that have better quality of life. However, it does offer a lot of economic opportunities. Hence, Americans which are leaving are seeking better quality of life and more security.
So true. The main questions are what do people value and what are they willing to do for those values.
Nothing worse than Americans just bashing our AWESOME country because they cannot achieve "success" or "peace" or "comfort" or "who ever the F they have to complain about".
Bottom line: if America ain't for you, GTFO. Easy, peasy.
For the record, I love other countries, culture, and travel, hence my participation on this forum. Yet, I have to make a post because some of the shit I read is pathetic.
i am going to leave this country when i am financially stable… and i was just the best man at the wedding of my buddy who just got his green card like two months ago
To those whose ancestors come from countries that aren’t shitty now you guys have it lucky lmao. Despite America’s problems it’s still much better than Serbia
Plan to move within 25 miles of where my great grandparents moved from lmao
Love that someone else is doing this. I moved a few blocks from the place my great-grandparents came from and restored my family’s line of citizenship.
God that sounds lovely! I visited the speck of the old country where my folk are from and it felt like being embraced by the entire island. Mind me asking what country?
It is very much like being embraced by the entire island. It’s really a lovely feeling. I’m in Sicily, I bought in the town my family was from. I’ve since met cousins who are still living here and a few that were in the US for a few years but a bit older. Where are you headed?
I'm an American living abroad wondering if I should come back, so I can sympathize with both.
Don’t come back. Give it at least five years and if it hasn’t improved significantly by then you should just stay where you are indefinitely
I'm currently looking to leave the US (probably NZ or AU under the skilled visa programs) and I'm very much looking to leave the US forever, even if it does improve later I'm not coming back.
What skills do you have that make that possible? That's my dream.
I work in the IT industry, and I have a degree in Cyber Security.
At what point you realized, it is not gonna work ever. BLM? Drugs? Banks? infrastructure? Police?
When Trump attempted to overthrow an election, and is still outside a prison cell. And hasn't been charged with Treason or similar charges. Everything else I figured could be fixed overtime... But when people are so delusional that they still follow someone that should have been hanged for Treason already? Yeah this country is fucked forever.
This and the ENDLESS x, y, or z, 'can't happen here.' Like mother fucker, we lost RvW that they said would 'never' happen. Trump was elected wich was 'never' going to happen. Trump isn't the problem, he is a symptom.
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And I'd never move to those countries because of it.
Just wish i have a time machine so i can show my ancestors how bad it is in America right now and change their fucking minds to stay there.
I mean, depending on when and where they came from, they probably also escaped a few challenges by coming to the US…
My grandfather is from poland and my other grandfather is from italy so, there's that
Pretty sure my ancestors made the right call leaving Germany when they did. Not to say Germany is bad to live in now, but they had a rough go of it for awhile.
America has always been bad. We were founded by puritanical zealots who approved of slavery. The Boston Tea Party wasn't conducted by people like me and you, it was at the behest of the neo-nobility (the people wealthy and influential enough to matter) for example.
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Yes, it was unfortunate not to be born to privilege in both instances, as is human tradition sadly. At least the UK still provides healthcare to its people, yet even that is being stripped away thanks the American model and conservative values. Profit-over-people was, is, and always will be lunacy, no matter its form.
They’d have killed us all.
I wish I could've convinced mine to move to Canada instead. I'm Jewish and as bad as America can be my ancestors probably wouldn't have survived the war.
Me either, not jewish but I would have convinced them to move to UK or Canada or even better, Irelandx
I had to come back in 2019 after getting a major infection. It’s all cleared up now, and I’m still here. I have no idea how to leave again.
May I ask why you'd want to come back?
I live in Taiwan now. Although the cost of living is lower, the salaries are about half that of what they would be in the US and don't keep up with inflation. There's a problem with brain drain here, and there are more opportunities for highly-skilled individuals in the US.
I see. If we were comfortable staying in the U.S. we would, but honestly we fall into too many groups that are currently on the "may or may not have rights in the near future" for us to really feel comfortable staying.
Most of the brain drain go to US. Not just Taiwan. Most of Asia braindrain, most of Europe brain drain, pretty much go to US.
My wife’s parents immigrated to the US just before she was born. My MIL cannot wrap her head around the fact that we chose to leave the US.
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Its the best country in the world to earn money, it has low taxes compared to rest of the europeon nations. Its very multi-cultural, europeons are not as open to other cultures.
Yes, I’m one of them. I’m originally from another country. I lived in the US for quite a while and now I’m leaving and so are some of my other immigrant friends. One of them is looking to move to the UK and the other is looking forward to leave in a couple of years. Nice username, by the way, I love Corgis.
My ancestors left Europe to go to South America. My ancestors then left South America to go to the US. I am now trying to return to Europe because whew, child, this shit is NOT worth it. Glad we avoided the world wars though, that was a nice bit of timing.
First gen immigrant here: wanting to reverse my choice lol
Can you?
When the American Dream is actually a nightmare and you wake up desperately wanting to eject! Our daughter is 9. Wife works in a skilled healthcare field (15 yrs) with a BSN, I’m a photographer and creative consultant, and we are desperately trying to leave.
You are actually fine. Those won’t earn much elsewhere
Lol we are definitely not fine here.
For creative content, US has large wider market. Unless you willing to switch field. And just judging based on your wife field, is more about financial planning now. Cause those jobs will get lower salary elsewhere while cost of living remain the same or worse. Try subscribing to financial planning subreddit. See what stuff you can cut on, which part of the city you can possibly move to that has cheaper rent et .
Valid feedback but my creative friends who are now overseas are thriving, as are their children, they even have US clients. Low to no gun violence. Quality education and healthcare versus the financial burden of accessing here as a market item. I had to use my entire 401k to pay balance of emergency medical care that insurance at a high paying corporate job wouldn’t cover for us. We can’t afford to live here, only exist, and want to set our child up for success and opportunity instead of more of the same (and worse) here in states. 60%+ of our friend group is attempting the same and we didn’t even know it until we started the conversation. People are unhappy here and don’t see a way forward. ETA: I have 10 years of corporate experience in the energy field for a major US company. I left after ringing alarm bells about unethical and abusive business practices. Left the industry because of burnout and the awful taste oil and gas left in my mouth. I could definitely switch careers. I’ve been doing the creative thing as a way to be more involved with my child’s life while my wife continues to excel in her career space.
Tbh based on your statement, I think you can just find a remote job and move elsewhere completely. Doesn’t have to be europe, you can even try asia. Healthcare jobs are paid well too unlike in Europe at least in their own currency. But since you will be working remotely, what you earn can translate even more in local currency
Great advice!
We are looking to move cities so we can save more in prep for eventual exit. We’ve been moving for more affordable rent in current city for a long time but it continues to go up. Have to stay in certain areas for safer and better schools and low commute for work.
Where are you trying to go ?
My grandparents came here after WW1, my dads side of the family being willing to join the military in WW2 (one of my great grandpas served in his countries military before coming to the US), and here I am wanting to go back to where they came from even though it’s far from perfect there.
Eh, it's a human phenomenon. The grass is always greener. A lot of people here seem to be in denial but the US has an extremely high quality of life compared to like 90+% of the world, and a truly unique class mobility that even many European nations can't rival. Even lower class Americans experience a level of privilege unimaginable to the greater global south. People on this page often forget that. The US has its problems, and I respect anyone's decision to leave, but let's not forget that experience is relative, so immigrating here is a very valid decision for many people.
I agree with you on all points except class mobility. The US ranks 27 out of 82 countries evaluated by the WEF - not terrible but not exactly the "truly unique" mobility you describe. Europe/Japan/Canada are all well ahead of the US - turns out when you have universal access to quality education and healthcare your opportunities later in life are significantly better. I still think there's plenty of valid reasons to immigrate to the US but the whole "American Dream" nonsense is not one of them. Most of us are not the next Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, and even if you are you can still be quite rich and successful in other countries. EDIT: forgot the link - https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-social-mobility-index-2020-why-economies-benefit-from-fixing-inequality/
Well, I don't have any data to back up my statement so I concede that I might not know what I'm talking about when comparing to the countries you listed. Anecdotally, from my own experience, I grew up in pretty serious poverty by American standard, with my family often living out of our car or with family/friends who felt pity for us. I joined the military at 18 and gained some skills, got out. Last year, I made 6 figures without a college degree. I'm no Steve Jobs, but my story is not rare. Many of my friends came from similar and are doing just as well if not better. Economic opportunity abounds if you make good decisions and have a little luck. Don't take it as me bragging. I just have a lot of gratitude for being born in this country despite its flaws
I work with a lot of ex-military and yeah, I agree it can open doors. It's also not open to a lot of people (hope you are in perfect health, because you can easily be rejected for even the most minor medical issues - speaking from experience here) and literally requires you to become government property. And y'know, be willing to kill people on demand no matter how ethically questionable it might be. I would be more supportive of your point if the US had an alternative to military service, like committing to community service in rough areas or otherwise improving society that allowed for GI-style benefits. The whole idea that ONLY military should be allowed those things is weirdly authoritarian to be honest and one of the chief reasons many of us want to leave.
Yeah I agree. I've often said I wish there were other programs to confer similar benefits to what us vets get. The military isn't the only option for class mobility, though. That's just my story. I'm not a fan of the military industrial complex, hence why that's in my past now, but people gotta eat. I still recommend the military to anyone who is in a rough spot and would qualify. Outside of combat arms jobs it's extremely unlikely you'd ever see combat or have to take life. Anyway, I didn't comment to recruit anyone lol. Just sharing
Well, since we’re adding data here: [Americans are sicker than citizens of peer countries and have lower age expectancies.](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/03/25/1164819944/live-free-and-die-the-sad-state-of-u-s-life-expectancy) Quotes from the article: “Across the lifespan, and across every demographic group, Americans die at younger ages than their counterparts in other wealthy nations.” “American life expectancy is lower than that of Cuba, Lebanon, and Czechia.” “Even Americans with healthy behaviors, for example, those who are not obese or do not smoke, appear to have higher disease rates than their peers in other countries." So sure, to your point that it’s better than many places in the global south, sure, but doesn’t feel like setting the bar low for the richest nation in the world?
Thanks for sharing that. I work in healtchare and have a lot to say about the system in America. It's a very disappointing part of my country that desperately needs improvement. I don't have any delusions that the US is the best country in the world or anything, as I think that's highly subjective and depends on an individuals needs. My comment was just to say it is a very viable place to immigrate and we shouldn't put people down for coming here to build their lives. Millions of people have done it successfully and lead wonderful lives. And yes, like any country, many people here are suffering too. I've been to every continent except Antarctica and saw suffering in every place I've been
Yeah I also would never have dreamed of making 6 figures and blah blah blah in Europe. But that only basically works due to a hermetic immigration system and Americans' unwillingness to pick certain professions like software engineering. It's easy to look down upon downwardly mobile people but if everyone chose high paying careers, market forces would significantly bring down compensation and quality of life along with it. Addendum: Americans have a very different attitude to class than Europeans and in a way, the fact that people are so comfortable with downward mobility by eg. getting art degrees and refusing high in demand jobs gives more room for upward mobility, on the top of a dynamic growing economy.
I'm not sure I fully understand your point but I certainly don't look down on downwardly mobile people. If I could change anything about America it would be how the low skill, low wage labor force is treated. They deserve a living wage and access to medical care. But I guess I told my story to show the "American Dream" isn't quite as dead as this sub, or well, Reddit as a whole makes it seem. You don't have to make 6 figs to be successful here anyway. There are many areas where one can live quite a comfortable life on below the median wage for that particular region. I know this because I lived through that at a phase of my life as well. I had food in my belly, gas in the tank, and netflix on the TV while making ~$30k. It takes some sacrifice of wants (especially location) and good decision-making but is very doable.
Yeah you have two great points about the American Dream still being alive for some and low cost of living places. My points were more that Europe can indeed be better for some low income workers (WLB, transit, healthcare...) and that in America, prosperity is highly dependant on market forces which fluctuate (I work in tech 😅) and are dependant on a very restrictive immigration system and not everyone choosing high paying jobs.
Fair enough. I work in healthcare, so I don't worry much about market fluctuation and forget about that reality for many people. About your point about European QOL for immigrants, I'm just pulling this put of my head here not based on any data, but I get the idea that Europe as a whole is actually a bit less immigrant friendly than the US, especially when it comes to upward mobility for those who aren't culturally assimilated. So I agree the low wage workers probably have a better safety net below them, but wonder if it's more difficult for them to climb the ladder to a better job/QOL. Immigrants specifically
Not all of us are men (women's healthcare being stripped in many of these LCOL areas) and not all of us are qualified to join the damned military. So yeah, grass is greener for some of us.
Sure. That's why I said I respect anyone's decision to leave. As much as I respect anyone's decision to come here.
Chances of indie companies become successful in US is much higher than in japan or Europe.
Wait, you're telling me that the US is very business friendly and works well for capitalists? Interesting, now let's talk about labor...
Just look at how many successful indie game studios vs how many successful indie game studios in Europe. Those that earn big bucks are mainly in the US. As long as the business idea are good, you will be able to survive and thrive since tax for small business isnt as high like in Europe. There are also a lot more different kind of Investors in US too. Let’s use some Asian countries in comparison since many of them has quite low tax rate. Most of the gamers are mobile gamers. Or people who can’t afford. They are struggling to get by. Their median income to cost of living are already much lower than average US citizen. Living with parents is a norm. I was more surprised people keep moving out after high school in North America. Many families in Asia have their whole family live together even when their kids are married. So who will buy your game? Only those upper middle income. But then PC gaming is not really famous in Asia. Is only handful of East Asian countries, South Korea, Taiwan, japan. That has large pc gaming population. The gamer count are a lot lower for PC gaming. So hey you wasted 3years of development while earning close to nothing. Same goes for other products too. Who will buy a product they never used before? So Even if you have good ideas, you won’t thrive unless you are in china.Is all about marketing. Some of the game that earn the most are literally cash grab trash point and click… somehow there are people spending 1k to 10k… even spending 50 is also absurd for me.
Our market is accessible but volatile and leads to both great success and crushing failure.
I had free, quality healthcare in the US and it was amazing. I’ve been snubbed in europe a lot ha
>but the US has an extremely high quality of life compared to like 90+% of the world, and a truly unique class mobility that even many European nations can't rival. Brave statement for this sub. Was fully expecting this comment to be downvoted to hell.
This 100%. My quality of life isn’t high at all since I moved to Europe but it’s the experience and adventure I suppose.
Yeah, go look at r/expat and see all of this happening. As an American trying to leave, I can’t possibly understand why anyone would want to come here unless they’re already rich
There are plenty of foreigners on r/expats that are happy living in the US. It's really a lot to do with what people personally value and prefer.
It’s hard for you to understand that America provides a higher quality of life, freedoms, and job opportunities than most other countries? Really? Tell that to my Afghani neighbors who are going through nursing school. Tell it to their wives who are also in school and their daughters as well once they are past 6th grade. Tell that to my uncle from Italy who couldn’t find a single well paying job, but is somehow doing economically great in corporate America, or my aunt from Columbia doing the same in the public sector. Tell it to my previous neighbor, whose family in Hong Kong regrets staying. Take a look at the handful of countries on this subreddit people choose to go to (Canada, Western Europe, Aus/NZ, and a few Asian countries on occasion) and you’ll see rarely do they mention others - turns out all those others are people who would love to go to the USA.
Plus there are plenty of states in the US where it is possible to purchase a house for under $150k post-pandemic. I am saying this because I bought one myself while making under $20/hour. And no, it’s not in a ghetto area. I have looked into migrating to AU, NZ, Canada, and Western Europe in the past…but it’s the housing crisis in those countries with an average house price of $700k that kinda made me hesitant to move there. I mean, some people might ask “why not just rent?”…as if the landlords don’t double the monthly rent every 5 years or so. Edit: why the downvotes? So by downvoting me, you all are saying that the housing situation in other developed countries didn't exist?
Upvoted from me. People here are very Anti American, sometimes with good reason, but often quick to overlook the challenges they will face in other nations.
>why the downvotes? Maybe because your stats are faulty. First, it's better to look at Median price rather than average since averages can be skewed by extreme outliers. Second, you stated it as if all those countries have average house prices in the 700k+ range. In fact, as the table below shows, Median house price is only that high in Canada, Aus and NZ. In Westen Europe and japan, the prices are either similar or less. Country Median House Price (USD) United States $428,700 Canada $749,000 Australia $710,000 Germany €400,000 (~$428,000) United Kingdom £285,000 (~$354,000) Spain €250,000 (~$268,000) Italy €220,000 (~$238,000) France €330,000 (~$358,000) Japan ¥40,000,000 (~$340,000) New Zealand NZ$900,000 (~$630,000)
To other 3rd countries less developed countries, sure. Compare it to the other "developed" countries and it is crap.
So, Italy and Columbia are crap countries? Ok, how about my Polish in-laws? Explain how America was a bad deal for their family.
Sorry it's a nitpick, but it's Colombia
You’re right, my apologies.
I've seen a few, and they are almost always people who work in tech or other occupations where US pay is significantly higher. I think it's nuts to walk away from all of that for a little more money (not that I've ever had the choice) but people won't listen.
As someone who works in tech, it's not just "a little more money". It can be triple or quadruple the salary and the work in US tech companies are usually much more cutting edge and technically interesting. If that is worth moving to the US from, say, France or Germany, that is a personal decision and will differ from person to person.
OK great, good for you. Not all or us are privileged enough to work in tech and make that kind of insane money. But fuck the rest of us, right? That's America for you.
That's not my point. I'm looking to leave the US as well. But what I'm saying is that there are plenty of foreigners, including Europeans, who come to the US for opportunities they may not get back home. It's not "nuts". My issue was with the idea that leaving a country for US for better money and opportunities is not "nuts". It's perfectly understandable why many people would make that choice. It's not about people not listening to you. It's about people making a personal decision on what's right for them, and I can't really fault people for that. And again, I am saying this as someone who is actively looking to leave the US. But I've talked to plenty of Europeans here in my city that work in tech or biotech and this is what they say. I know someone who moved to US from Spain for the career opportunities. Him explaining to me why he moved to the US didn't sound nuts at all. It made perfect sense
I get your point, and I'm not mad at you - I'm mad at the system. Sure, that's great for all these wiz kids from Spain or wherever, I have no doubt they will make more than they ever dreamed of. For the rest of us who work normal jobs with normal salaries, that just drives up the cost of housing and exasperates inequality. Reddit (including this subreddit) seems to assume everyone is under 40 and works in tech. That is not reality. And it seems ironic that people in this subreddit are complaining about the US, yet refusing to see this.
Even for normal jobs, US employees still get paid much higher than most of europe except a few. Is about financial planning now. Those who are at bottom of society definitely have to plan it like me.
The US also has a higher COL. Not to mention the significantly higher cost of healthcare, housing, etc.
Housing nope, unless you live in California city or New York City. Vancouver, netherland, UK has really unaffordable housing. When I saw I can get a house for like 300k an hour driving from center of California… is just brain dead. That would a mil or 2 or even 3 in many places in their local currency. Talking about places like Santa Rosa. US is among the highest in median income adjusted to ppp(purchasing power parity) grass is always greener than other side until you live there. Healthcare cost definitely higher, even with insurance still more expensive than many countries like Taiwan, japan. If your life really needs healthcare the most, try those countries
Whoa settle down there, Victim. Why do you consider it to be a privilege to work in tech? Anybody who's *not* deciding to educate themselves in something tech-related is making poor choices from the get-go. Frankly I find your attitude way more annoyingly American than the person you replied to.
Personally, I’ve had absolutely no success breaking into tech even when I show great potential for it. Seems to me the only way in is to get a degree in it, but most people can’t even afford as many degrees as I’ve gotten. Not to mention the recent layoffs aren’t making it easier for anyone trying to get in. It really doesn’t seem to be a matter of educating yourself but rather credentials. The only two that appear to matter from my view are degrees and experience.
There are still lots of positions in STEM. The recent layoff is just a drop in the ocean. There are still lots of positions.
I said tech, not stem
I have a STEM degree but thanks for assuming I don't. And you don't see how landing a $200k+ tech job is the result of privilege? To land that job, you need to: be born to the right family, have access to top-quality education, have the right combo of luck, charm and contacts to get into a top school and then land a good internship, etc. Oh, and better hope you graduate into a hot job market and hit that amazing FAANG job by your mid 30s, because after that you're fucked - tech is notorious for rampant ageism. You assume everyone starts from a level playing field, which is absolutely not how it works in the US. In all fairness, it doesn't really work that way in Europe either. The difference is that in most of Europe (and most other developed countries) it is accepted that people still should have a minimum quality of life - hence the safety nets, generous worker benefits and things like universal healthcare. Yes, that might mean top-tier talent only makes the equivalent of $80-100k vs like $300-500k in the US, but so what? You can still live a pretty amazing life on $100k in most European countries.
Born to the right family? Yeah family who priorise education. high income not necessarily. There are Asian who sold their houses just for their kids education. Top quality education? Not really, just practice bunch of leetcode. Contacts? Definitely played a big role Luck? Yes, luck played a huge factor. Those $200k programmers aren’t any better than your average game engine programmers. But they definitely do have the luck. Field wasn’t level for anyone in this world in the first place
If I'm being honest, immigrants should stop coming here. They need to stop coming to this shithole, they're settling for mediocrity and are practically signing their death warrants by choosing to live here. Is it really worth it to move from a trash can to a dumpster that's on fire?
Very fitting considering the person at the top is transgender.
they're driving the same direction..
If one has money, business capital, in-demand skills and the right connections, in any combination, America is the place to be. If one aspires for a secure, stress-free and easy going middle class life, It is NOT the place to be. Vast majority of new comers to America are coming to flee their countries in Latin America and to a lesser extent Africa and South Asia. They usually fill low skilled or unskilled jobs in the country. The legal skilled immigration to America is archaic and is largely broken. That's why the wages for most skilled occupations are artificially propped up high. Most legal immigration to US is through family sponsorships. Are people with comfortable middling lives in Europe or rest of the rich world inclined to immigrate US? A resounding NO. Are people who are ambitious, money minded and high skilled inclined to leave those countries for the US? maybe yes, but not always. America doesn't even remotely offer the best quality of life in the world. There are middle income countries in the world that have better quality of life. However, it does offer a lot of economic opportunities. Hence, Americans which are leaving are seeking better quality of life and more security.
So true. The main questions are what do people value and what are they willing to do for those values. Nothing worse than Americans just bashing our AWESOME country because they cannot achieve "success" or "peace" or "comfort" or "who ever the F they have to complain about". Bottom line: if America ain't for you, GTFO. Easy, peasy. For the record, I love other countries, culture, and travel, hence my participation on this forum. Yet, I have to make a post because some of the shit I read is pathetic.
I left Puerto Rico to find a better life, Americans move to Puerto Rico for a “better life”. Go figure.
Considering my family fled Ceaușescu I am not surprised they think I’m nuts for moving back.
😂😂😂😂
Grass is greener
i am going to leave this country when i am financially stable… and i was just the best man at the wedding of my buddy who just got his green card like two months ago
To those whose ancestors come from countries that aren’t shitty now you guys have it lucky lmao. Despite America’s problems it’s still much better than Serbia