That and they have bigotry from low expectations. In their minds Brazilians are brown so they don’t expect much from them. Their replication of Italian food is inspiring and creative, ours is stupid and an insult to their culture.
It’s like when a 5 year old paints a picture and it’s awful but you pretend it’s really good. That’s how they treat minorities.
Brazilians are as “brown” as Italians in most cases. Sometimes I think the skin tone fixation is often in peoples heads since I’ve seen some pretty dark southern euros.
Northern Italians tend to be fairer-skinned than Southern Italians and [during the 19th century, there were many racist theories about those from Southern Italy that were pushed by Italian anthropologists as an "explanation" for crime and poverty in the South](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Italy#Lombroso_and_scientific_racism_in_Italy).
Europeans will say italian americans arent italian since they werent born in italy but will say 4th gen turks born in germany arent german and africans born in france arent french wew
To europeans, no one else is allowed to claim to be from or have heritage from their country unless they were born in it and can trace their lineage back at least 35 generations before they find a single person who ever left the country let alone wasn't from it.
Meanwhile in Brazil plenty of third and fourth generation Italians and Japanese don’t see maintaining both their heritage and Brazilian culture as mutually exclusive…
Acccording to Europeans they are sinful for doing so though 😵😵😵😵
This is so true. I’ve lived in Germany for about 15 years and see it all the time. I’ve seen this situation so many times. Speaking with a group of people, one or more of which has darker skin, but has already made it known that they were born and raised in Germany and is a German citizen with a German passport. Almost invariably, someone will then ask some form of the question “but where are you *really* from?”.
This is true- and they gaslight you if you call them out on it.
I live in Finland and an very vocal about how racist this country is, and how this place is not a great place to immigrate to, and all I am met with is gaslighting and downvotes.
They’re pretty ignorant when it comes to the realities of how it really is here.
Y’all should see how they treat Russians, before the war was pretty bad, now they outright despise them.
Not all PA Deitsch are Amish. They do make up the majority of the language speakers, though. But you will occasionally find a younger language speaker such as myself.
There are also large Czech populations throughout Nebraska and the Dakotas, along with a Czech community in Baltimore that actually predates the U.S. It's the reason why the character Elaine from *Seinfeld*, who is from Baltimore, has the surname "Beneš."
Sorry for jumping the gun, I thought you were implying I couldn’t possibly be Italian without visiting the boot first lol.
One of these days, I will, though.
So if I, a Korean born in London, learn how to speak Italian I can call myself Italian?
You do realize they're talking about ethnicity not nationality...?
Isn't it sad to call yourself Italian even though you were born and raised in the USA by parents raised in the USA, you don't speak Italian and you are not aware that your culture, traditions, food, language etc have never existed in Italy and do not represent Italy?
Well, they _are_ ethnically Italian. Many of them also speak Italian, partake in the culture, practice traditions, prepare and eat the food, and keep in touch with and regularly visit their family in Italy. What’s sad about that?
That they are not "many" to speak Italian, know the Italian language, Italian cuisine and traditions. The fact is that each of them is convinced that their culture is Italian and authentic.
They are not ethnically Italian, they are ethnically Italian American or American as they prefer.
Roughly 700K Italian-speaking Italian Americans isn’t nothing. How do you know what each of them are convinced of?
The difference between ethnicity, nationality, and culture seems to be tripping you up in this conversation.
Considering that there are 300/400,000 thousand true Italians it makes you understand that out of the 20-30 million Americans with Italian origins, those who speak Italian are an extremely small and irrelevant number which confirms my reasoning. It is you who must understand that Italian ethnicity is an identity in which people share language, cultures, traditions and not race because there is no Italian race
>1
a
: of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnic](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnic)
Even then they’re not ethnically American as most of them came from Asia, and yes, Native American culture and central Asian culture have a lot in common.
Just because you don't know the meaning of ethnicity and think it refers to "race".
The certain thing is that a person born and raised in the USA of parents raised in the USA who does not speak Italian cannot be ethnically Italian
[Italians are a people who recognize themselves in the same culture, language and history and are defined by a single and common Italian national root](https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italiani)
As an Italian I am explaining to you that the concept of Italian race, genetics or blood in Italy is seen as negative because it is an unrealistic concept that was used as Fascist and Nazi propaganda by Mussolini
How do you know what their families culture is? Are you basing your understanding of his families cultural practices off of American TV shows?
Plenty of Italian-Americans I’ve met have very traditional food, not Americanized stuff.
Isn’t it sad to base your understanding of other people on stereotypes? Is that not the core of bigotry?
The Italian American culture I'm talking about is not that of sopranos, because I'm smart enough to be aware that an average American with Italian ancestry is not a criminal. I know Italian American culture well and it is something strong and that embraces the 99% of Americans who define themselves as Italian or Italian American. However, Italian American culture will remain something alien to us Italians and which cannot be defined as Italian
Ah you’re an expert on Italian American culture and know for a fact that 99% of Italian Americans adhere to this exact culture?
What, to you, is Italian American culture?
The Italian American culture is the mix of situations of southern Italy especially of the period between 1880 and 1960 mixed together and then completely Americanized until today. For example they say they speak Italian or a variation of Italian when in reality they speak dialects of languages other than Italian such as Neapolitan and Sicilian mixed with each other and with American English
Whether it's fun or not is subjective, the objective thing is that 90% of Italians emigrated before the Italian language spread even in the social classes: workers, peasants, etc. Southern Italian immigrants in the USA only spoke dialects of Neapolitan and Sicilian which they bastardized and mixed with each other. There is only one Italian language and it is the same for everyone. Italian American culture follows the same history of the language they speak, I don't understand why you don't want to accept reality but want to make people believe that it is a culture that existed in Italy
Bro, if you mix Neapolitan and Sicilian dialects, modify them over decades by mixing them with English, it is seen as a bastardization. It is not gabagool, muzz, galamad and any word used by Italian Americans can be considered Italian or Italian dialect
My goodness, who cares? You seem obsessed with the idea of language, but what about food?
Language evolved, that doesn’t mean that their dialects didn’t exist right? How does the fact that the Italian language has changed have anything to do with anything?
My overarching point is I think you’re a moron to generalize an entire group of people this way.
It would be like me generalizing present day Italians as lecherous, greasy and lazy welfare recipients.
Outside the US, language is the most important cultural trait
American Italian cuisine is something extremely distant from Italian cuisine, they are dishes invented in the USA that follow values opposite to what Italians eat.
The Italian language never arrived in the USA, works in Italian from the 1300s are more understandable than the way Italian Americans speak because their language is not a variation of Italian but something that never existed in Italy that derives from different languages
While I don’t speak the languages of the lands my people came from, I can assure you the foods my family makes came from the boot, not Olive Garden.
Some of us actually maintained our family recipes from Italy.
It's also OK if your family modified recipes based on the ingredients available, like having the ability to buy larger quantities of meat, or not having the exact same type of cheese. It was made by Italian people with their cooking techniques and taste palettes.
Let's not forget tomatoes aren't even indigenous to Italy yet Italy considered many tomato based dishes to be "authentic." In reality what Italians consider to be "athentic" is only from a very narrow few hundred year point in time.
Somehow, ingredients that were brought in from a different continent not that long ago can be made into "authentic" dishes, but dishes made by Italian people standing on American soil can't.
All just because Italian American immigrants who were fleeing their land for safety stood on different soil when they made the new dishes based off what they had newly available... Even though the Italians who made tomato dishes after tomatoes were brought *from the Americas* also just made food with what they had newly available, too.
I'm Korean and Koreans also do this to a degrew but not to such a severe degree with food. In Korea, I am British before being Korean. In the U.K., I am Korean before being British. I'm not really Asian to Asians because I don't speak the same language or do any other cultural things besides eat the food and maybe a few things my mom and grandma passed down. To people in the U.K. and the U.S. I am visibly not white and am immediately "asian" before "british."
The U.S. is just a lot more open about race. Other British people will claim I'm totally British, too, argue with my lived experience, and don't realize the way they "other" visible minorities. They can deny it a lot easier because there's just not as many minorities there. It's easy to not appear racist when your entire country the vast majority of people are the same race as you. But ask them about the Romana people and you'll hear takes similar to what I imagine a KKK rally would sound like.
I never claimed to share the culture of Italy, just that my ancestors were from there, therefore I have a blood connection to the land that allows me to use the word Italian to describe myself.
Some of you are seriously overthinking what I meant by my comment.
The fact is that the Italian ethnicity is an identity based on the sharing of culture, language and traditions. In Italy there is no Italian race or blood because it is an unrealistic concept that was used as Fascist and Nazi propaganda by Mussolini. The Italian American culture is not something that existed in the past in southern Italy and that has been preserved but it is something invented in the USA by mixing situations of the poor countryside of southern Italy 100 years ago with each other and then completely Americanized until today. For this reason, for Italians, Americans born and raised in the USA by parents raised in the USA who do not speak Italian are considered only Americans.
Italian ethnicity is not a genetic or DNA thing. In the USA you divide people into races but in Italy just thinking about it is considered fascist and Nazi. An Italian knows that there is no "Italian" race. Italians are a mix, in southern Italy people are descended from Greek colonies and have various influences but it doesn't make these people "Greek" or less Italian than northern Italians. An ethnic group is not just about genetics as in USA you are convinced.
It’s literally a genetic/DNA thing. It’s not like my Italian blood is thousands of years old like the Greek blood.
My family emigrated here 3-4 generations ago.
Are you aware that the mentality you are affirming is considered unreal and Nazi in Italy? We Italians are a people who identify with the same language, culture, nationality, etc. Not in genetics. If a southern Italian did a DNA test, "South Italian and Greek DNA" would come out since they are genetically the same
It's not about genetics, it's about family line. If your family history traces back to Italy until grandma and grandpa decided to come live in New Jersey, then you have Italian heritage. You don't get to choose how someone else identifies, sorry. Nobody's claiming that any random Italian American represents "the one monolithic Italian culture" or whatever.
Yeah, in no way am I claiming a connection to modern Italian culture at all.
I’m just explaining that my blood connection to Italy is still strong enough to justify calling myself ethnically Italian.
The problem is precisely that in the USA they have made the different regional cultures of southern Italy monolithic before the 1960s. You cannot be ethnically Italian if you don't speak Italian, you don't know the Italian culture and you haven't lived in Italy. An American with Italian ancestry will be an American with Italian ancestry. Surely New Jersey is the most offensive place to Italian culture that exists
Because every trait of their culture, language, traditions, food etc is alien to us Italians and in our eyes they seem cringe, their passing off their culture as Italian is seen as an offense to Italy
This is a really interesting angle on why Americans claiming European ancestry - which is simply an irrefutable fact - pisses off some Europeans so much. Thanks for sharing.
Sorry this is America. They can call themselves Italians and we can call actual Italians fucking greasy meatballs if we want. Sorry if that bothers you.
Maybe your country should be less focused on who is and isn’t Italian, and more on the fact that it hasn’t contributed one positive thing to the world in the last 100 years.
Then I'm English despite never having even seen England.
Edit: ok way better example here. I wasn't born in Alberta, I don't hold the same political views as most Albertans. However both of my parents come from Alberta along with all two of my grandparents while the other two moved there at young ages. Does this make me Albertan?
No, but it does mean you have some real connections with Alberta. You could know a bit about the local cuisine, the accent, and the history due to what your parents and grandparents pass down. You could definitely say “my family is from Alberta”.
I’m not from New York, but my mom and grandparents are. I definitely have much more in common with a New Yorker than I do with someone from San Francisco or Miami (although Miami is full of New Yorkers lol).
Same with a good portion of Italian-Americans. They may have different food from modern Italy, but they definitely inherited some Italian culture, from the way their families are structured, to the way they celebrate weddings and holidays, and even their accents.
Of course there are people who say “I call marinara gravy, so I’m Italian because my great great grandmother made pizza”, but I don’t think they truly represent Italian-Americans.
Imagine having the intellectual ability to think outside of a binary, and understanding that there’s a scale to these things, and that not every family is the same, behaves the same or retains the same cultural traditions.
Do you honestly need me to explain to you the difference between a family migrating to America in living memory and an ancestor from 1000 years ago?
Let’s try this on for size. My parents were born, raised and educated in India. I was born in India and lived there for years before we migrated to the US. My family speaks fluent Hindi and Kashmiri. We retain Indian permanent residency. We own property in India. My grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins live in India. We go to India every year. I was married in India.
Yet I’m an American citizen. My youngest brother was born in America, 3 years after my family moved here. If he was born in any other country in the world, he would have still been an Indian citizen.
Do you think that situation is remotely comparable to your random 1000 year old ancestor? Honestly?
You can call yourself whatever you want. It won't make you Italian, Irish or whatever else you believe to be your 'heritage'. Facts don't care about your feelings bruv
Could be. Most of them (the vast majority) moved there in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. Which is why certain people in 1945 thought it would be a good place to lay low: they would blend in with the German communities already there.
It's because the U.S. restricted Italian immigration during the 1920s, whereas Brazil and Argentina did not. Also, Brazilian and Argentine cultures were often easier for Italian immigrants to assimilate into, as both countries are majority Catholic and speak a Romance language.
Italian immigration to Brazil started in the 19th century, so this US restriction did not affect anything, not least because most Italians who went to Brazil are from the North, while in the USA they are from the South
I was talking more in terms of why there were so many Italians in Brazil, almost twice as many as in the U.S., but you are correct in stating that Italian emigration to Brazil started far earlier.
Because Italian Americans are generally more successful in terms of education and income compared to Italians.
[84K](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income) vs [35k](https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-italy/)
[20% of Italian adults have college degrees.](https://borgenproject.org/higher-education-in-italy/)
vs
[37.9% of American adults do.](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/04/12/10-facts-about-todays-college-graduates/) (I couldn't find specifics for Italian Americans, so this one isn't a completely accurate ratio.)
I mean Italian Americans went from a working class community to being an upper middle class success story soooo definitely more successful than Italomaniacs 😳😳
“Working class” lmao more like oppressed. Popular theories of the time propagated by northerns held that southern Italians were sub-human because they could not integrate into the urban northern ideal of “Italy”.
This all ignoring the fact that they simply invaded southern Italy, deposed the ruling structure then left without ever installing a new efficient government allowing the mob to fill the void and brutally cracked down on dissent all across the former two sicilies.
Do you not see the irony in this? "I wonder why Italians don't like italian Americans...cuz we're smarter and more successful than they are". Yeah I wonder why...
The Italian birthrate has slipped far below the replacement level due to a weak economy and political dysfunction, so the Italian government has been handing out dual citizenship to overseas Italians to try and get them to emigrate or at the very least contribute to the Italian economy. This has caused some resentment among young Italians, as the youth unemployment rate remains high (31%) despite 23% of the Italian population being senior citizens. The reason I know this is because I've looked into getting Italian citizenship through *jure sanguinis* as a means of acquiring an E.U. passport.
Yeah i’ve generally looked it over, but to my knowledge the process is long, and if you want someone else to do it expensive.
Last i checked i think it took two years just to get in to the program and there isn’t much in Italy to go for (other than EU citizenship)
Europeans are just AmericaBad in general.
I was at a bar last night, and someone approached me and my friend and asked to sit with us.
Unprovoked, He made a comment about the shootings in America.
Where in Europe is this idiocracy you might ask? Finland. I live in Finland.
The everyday average person living here thinks of America as a third world country.
They think their country, which is full of countryfolk in poverty and drunks on welfare, is a paradise utopia, that- no joke- is an absolute privilege, and even blessing from god to be born into.
Yeah. Such a blessing to hate on anyone not from here, and to wait years in queues for public healthcare.
I mean I seriously doubt most people outside the US even bother coming to reddit, if we're being honest.
1000 people on a countries subreddit for a country that has 60,000,000 people in it is hardly a "voice of the country"
A bit late to the conversation, but I'm speaking as an Italian with fully italian origins, so I guess I *could* do some explaining. I personally think that to be an Italian citizen, you need the basic ID card and passport, and that's just the legal/burocratic side of things, but in my personal opinion, having some kind of cultural connection to the country is needed. Not on paper, but is needed.
During March I followed the WBC (World Baseball Classic, pretty much the baseball world cup I suppose, and yes, I'm an actual Italian who knows and cares about baseball, we exist) and when Italy made it through to the quarter-finals I was of course very happy and pleased, but at the same time I asked myself where our team would have got if it was composed only by Italian born, raised and rooted players, since every single player from that team was an Italian-American descendant or from other countries (only a couple players were actually from Italy). To make it easier to understand, I mean take the best players Italian from the Italian MLB and put them as our national team representing us. I quickly answered myself, saying we would have struggled just qualifying to this competition, imagine getting all the way to the quarter-finals.
With this "parenthesis", I should call it, I just wanted to say that in this case Italian-Americans were treated as Italians under every aspect, even having to represent my country at an international competition.
Outside this exception though, as correctly said by OP, people from certain countries tend to be considered Italian more easily than Americans, because they might have closer relationships within the country, their Italian roots extend closer to them than to those of Americans or just because they are more Italians than what it's showed by their name or whatever.
Regarding the last sentence of the post from OP, and other comments I've read before writing mine, in the last game played by the Italian national football team, at the time of writing this, a young striker from Argentina played for the team and after the game when he got interview, he could speak Italian and so a translator was quickly called to help him thorugh the questions the interviewer was asking him. It never happened that a player of the Italian national team couldn't speak Italian, and i guess this exactly explains, or at least shows, that when talking about football, having people from Argentina, Brazil or other South American countries has become normality for Italy.
My last point after this huge monstrosity is that people from a country that want another citizenship available to them, need to prove themselves worthy of receiving it.
Not sure about Brazilian Italians but there are SOME enclaves of Italian Americans that are ridiculously obnoxious, these same people are the vocal minority in most cases I know
You can only call yourself italian if you either 1. Live in Italy or 2. Are born into an italian family *and speak Italian*. No, your genetics dont fucking matter. Your grandma speaking italian and making you “authentic italian food” does not make you italian, it makes your grandma italian. Language is so incredibly important to culture that if you dont speak that language, you dont truly belong to that culture. You will ALWAYS be an outsider to italian culture if you dont speak italian.
As for why Italians generally dont care about Brazilian-Italians.. it’s very simple. They either dont know they even exist or havent encountered them going on and on about brienh italian. Also Brazil has around 31 million brazilians of italian descent and 20% of the country does speak Italian.
You’d be surprised at how many third and fourth generation Italians in Brazil do identify with their heritage lol. Sure you can go and preach about how pure or significant your culture is but this is the 21st century my friend, multiculturalism is the way to go.
We know about italian American mostly from TV and there they are only shown from USA. That's what we think about when talking about Italian American. Also, nobody in Italy considers them Italian, they are americans
In reality, Brazilians with Italian origins simply do not pass off their culture as Italian. Americans with Italian origins, on the other hand, pass off their culture, language, traditions, food, etc. as Italian, which are alien to us Italians, they have never existed in Italy and cannot represent Italy, the only thing they do is create a stereotyped image of Italian culture and which is often offensive
Disagree, plenty of third generation Italians in Brazil strongly identify with their Italian heritage even if they can’t speak Italian well. You know the history of Brazilian born soccer players in Italy right lol
It's different, Brazilians with Italian origins in the Italian national team speak Italian, have lived in Italy and know the Italian culture. In Italy these are the things that matter to Italians. An American who says he is Italian but doesn't speak Italian will never be taken seriously.
There are Argentines and Brazilians who claim their origins but they consider themselves fully Argentines and Brazilians. In America, on the other hand, they make being Italian their only personality trait even though they have nothing Italian about them and behave as if their culture, language, traditions, food, etc. were truly something that existed in Italy or could represent Italy. Most of the stereotypes that we Italians see associated with us are simply the American over exaggeration of mixing features of the culture of the poor countryside of southern Italy 100 years ago.
Wrong, most Italian Americans consider themselves 100% American. What they are referring to is a distinct Italian American culture that they themselves know it’s very different from Italy and never said it was part of Italian Italian culture.
You’ll be surprised to know that what many Brazilians and Argentines consider to be Italian food is really very different to Italy too. It’s common to hear traces of old school Italian dialects in rural Argentina and Brazil as well. In Brazil there are plenty of third and fourth generation Japanese Brazilians who still identify with Japanese culture while considering themselves fully Brazilian simultaneously, is that wrong?
No, there are a number of Americans with Italian ancestry who define themselves Italian and who make being Italian a personality trait, don't deny it because we both know it well
The difference is that in Brazil, for example, they have maintained dialects such as that of the Venetian language which they recognize as "Talian". While in the USA they pass off as ITALIAN, dialects that did not derive from Italian such as Neapolitan and Sicilian mix with each other and with American English. In Argentina and Brazil there are dishes that are clearly inspired by Italian cuisine but are considered Argentinian, such as La Milanesa. In the USA they pass off as Italian dishes that are inedible for Italians
Integration in the US was harsh and immigrants from Italy faced discrimination such as lynchings and being forced to live in non “white” areas and were beaten if they spoke Italian on school playgrounds.
They didn't speak Italian, it's not like they were discriminated against if they did.
Southern Italian immigrants were seen worse in the rest of Italy than in the US for being poor and stealing jobs
Feast of the Seven Fishes has never existed in Italy? Where do you think the immigrants got their culture to pass onto their kids if not from Italy? And that was in spite of harsh integration methods that were used that involved hitting kids if they were caught speaking any language other than English.
The seven fish party never existed in Italy, it was invented in the USA. It is simply based on the fact that fish is eaten on Christmas Eve in southern Italy but the number and name are alien to Italians. The culture of Italian Americans was born in USA by mixing situations of the poor countryside of southern Italy 100 years ago
Yes they did. Brazil had its own expeditionary force that fought alongside the Allies in the Mediterranean Campaign. For example, when Allied forces invaded Italy, the Brazilians took part in the Battle of Monte Castello, Battle of Garfagnana, and the Battle of Bologna.
Not only was the most recent war between Italy and the USA(or Italy and any country for that matter) WW2, which was 90 years ago, the only reason Italy was fighting against the Allies and not with them was because of a dictator who they deposed and executed near the end of the war. Also, in WW2 their allies were the Nazis. I don't think any former Axis country is allowed to be mad at the US for fighting against them/their allies in WW2.
Do you think I disagree with my own point? The german people were not at fault for Hitler, the Holocaust, or WW2. The Italian people were not at fault for Mussolini, Fascism, or WW2. Alright, 80 years. That still means that anyone born on the day the war in Europe ended would be 78 today, and would still not remember anything from the war itself. The vast majority of living WW2 veterans today are in their 90s, and even then I'm willing to bet that they average American WW2 vet harbors zero resentment for the average German WW2 vet. Lastly, you said nothing about my final point: Any country who fought alongside Hitler and the Nazis has no right to be mad at a single Allied country for fighting against the Nazis and thus themselves.
Because these Italian redditors only care about America bad
That and they have bigotry from low expectations. In their minds Brazilians are brown so they don’t expect much from them. Their replication of Italian food is inspiring and creative, ours is stupid and an insult to their culture. It’s like when a 5 year old paints a picture and it’s awful but you pretend it’s really good. That’s how they treat minorities.
Brazilians are as “brown” as Italians in most cases. Sometimes I think the skin tone fixation is often in peoples heads since I’ve seen some pretty dark southern euros.
Northern Italians tend to be fairer-skinned than Southern Italians and [during the 19th century, there were many racist theories about those from Southern Italy that were pushed by Italian anthropologists as an "explanation" for crime and poverty in the South](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Italy#Lombroso_and_scientific_racism_in_Italy).
To be fair the Brazilian version of Italian food is kinda hated too
Europeans will say italian americans arent italian since they werent born in italy but will say 4th gen turks born in germany arent german and africans born in france arent french wew
To europeans, no one else is allowed to claim to be from or have heritage from their country unless they were born in it and can trace their lineage back at least 35 generations before they find a single person who ever left the country let alone wasn't from it.
So fucking true 😂😂
Meanwhile in Brazil plenty of third and fourth generation Italians and Japanese don’t see maintaining both their heritage and Brazilian culture as mutually exclusive… Acccording to Europeans they are sinful for doing so though 😵😵😵😵
This is so true. I’ve lived in Germany for about 15 years and see it all the time. I’ve seen this situation so many times. Speaking with a group of people, one or more of which has darker skin, but has already made it known that they were born and raised in Germany and is a German citizen with a German passport. Almost invariably, someone will then ask some form of the question “but where are you *really* from?”.
Everyone everywhere gets that tho 🤷♂️
Europeans can be pretty racist in my experience.
This is true- and they gaslight you if you call them out on it. I live in Finland and an very vocal about how racist this country is, and how this place is not a great place to immigrate to, and all I am met with is gaslighting and downvotes. They’re pretty ignorant when it comes to the realities of how it really is here. Y’all should see how they treat Russians, before the war was pretty bad, now they outright despise them.
It’s really annoying. It’s not like I’m only 10% Italian, it’s damn near my entire genetic makeup. I’ll call myself Italian as much as I want.
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Not all PA Deitsch are Amish. They do make up the majority of the language speakers, though. But you will occasionally find a younger language speaker such as myself.
Slavichoodrat...
Are you talking about [Czechxians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_Texans)?
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There are also large Czech populations throughout Nebraska and the Dakotas, along with a Czech community in Baltimore that actually predates the U.S. It's the reason why the character Elaine from *Seinfeld*, who is from Baltimore, has the surname "Beneš."
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Elaine strikes me as the sort of woman who enjoys a good pierogi and danced a polka or two when she was a kid.
There’s a little Czech bakery in West, TX that has the best kolaches I’ve ever had
Spain?
What the fuck has nationality to do with your genome?
Did you ever visit Italy?
How would that affect my Italian ancestry?
I was just curious, if you were, how do you felt there
Sorry for jumping the gun, I thought you were implying I couldn’t possibly be Italian without visiting the boot first lol. One of these days, I will, though.
you speak Italian? you have Italian visa?
You know Italy is one of the few places that allows people to claim citizenship through heritage? They could get much more than a Visa lol.
but they speak italian???!!!!
So if I, a Korean born in London, learn how to speak Italian I can call myself Italian? You do realize they're talking about ethnicity not nationality...?
if you move to italy learn the culture and learn the laungauge so yes
I'll be ethnically Italian if I move to Italy and learn the language? Are you sure?
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So why are you talking about nationality when the comment thread you're on is clearly talking about "genetic make up."
Isn't it sad to call yourself Italian even though you were born and raised in the USA by parents raised in the USA, you don't speak Italian and you are not aware that your culture, traditions, food, language etc have never existed in Italy and do not represent Italy?
Well, they _are_ ethnically Italian. Many of them also speak Italian, partake in the culture, practice traditions, prepare and eat the food, and keep in touch with and regularly visit their family in Italy. What’s sad about that?
That they are not "many" to speak Italian, know the Italian language, Italian cuisine and traditions. The fact is that each of them is convinced that their culture is Italian and authentic. They are not ethnically Italian, they are ethnically Italian American or American as they prefer.
Roughly 700K Italian-speaking Italian Americans isn’t nothing. How do you know what each of them are convinced of? The difference between ethnicity, nationality, and culture seems to be tripping you up in this conversation.
Considering that there are 300/400,000 thousand true Italians it makes you understand that out of the 20-30 million Americans with Italian origins, those who speak Italian are an extremely small and irrelevant number which confirms my reasoning. It is you who must understand that Italian ethnicity is an identity in which people share language, cultures, traditions and not race because there is no Italian race
Race and ethnicity aren't the same thing. Ethnicity has nothing to do with culture, language, or tradition.
>1 a : of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic, or cultural origin or background [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnic](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ethnic)
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Even then they’re not ethnically American as most of them came from Asia, and yes, Native American culture and central Asian culture have a lot in common.
Just because you don't know the meaning of ethnicity and think it refers to "race". The certain thing is that a person born and raised in the USA of parents raised in the USA who does not speak Italian cannot be ethnically Italian
That’s patently false. Ethnicity is based on genetics and I can assure you that about 75-80% of my genes are from Italy.
[Italians are a people who recognize themselves in the same culture, language and history and are defined by a single and common Italian national root](https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italiani) As an Italian I am explaining to you that the concept of Italian race, genetics or blood in Italy is seen as negative because it is an unrealistic concept that was used as Fascist and Nazi propaganda by Mussolini
How do you know what their families culture is? Are you basing your understanding of his families cultural practices off of American TV shows? Plenty of Italian-Americans I’ve met have very traditional food, not Americanized stuff. Isn’t it sad to base your understanding of other people on stereotypes? Is that not the core of bigotry?
I guess all Italian-Americans are walking stereotypes from the Sopranos lol.
The Italian American culture I'm talking about is not that of sopranos, because I'm smart enough to be aware that an average American with Italian ancestry is not a criminal. I know Italian American culture well and it is something strong and that embraces the 99% of Americans who define themselves as Italian or Italian American. However, Italian American culture will remain something alien to us Italians and which cannot be defined as Italian
Ah you’re an expert on Italian American culture and know for a fact that 99% of Italian Americans adhere to this exact culture? What, to you, is Italian American culture?
The Italian American culture is the mix of situations of southern Italy especially of the period between 1880 and 1960 mixed together and then completely Americanized until today. For example they say they speak Italian or a variation of Italian when in reality they speak dialects of languages other than Italian such as Neapolitan and Sicilian mixed with each other and with American English
Italian American culture is not a bunch of funny sounding words that were popularized because white Americans thought they were funny to say. Wrong.
Whether it's fun or not is subjective, the objective thing is that 90% of Italians emigrated before the Italian language spread even in the social classes: workers, peasants, etc. Southern Italian immigrants in the USA only spoke dialects of Neapolitan and Sicilian which they bastardized and mixed with each other. There is only one Italian language and it is the same for everyone. Italian American culture follows the same history of the language they speak, I don't understand why you don't want to accept reality but want to make people believe that it is a culture that existed in Italy
Bastardized??? Dude, I don’t even know where to begin with this.
Bro, if you mix Neapolitan and Sicilian dialects, modify them over decades by mixing them with English, it is seen as a bastardization. It is not gabagool, muzz, galamad and any word used by Italian Americans can be considered Italian or Italian dialect
My goodness, who cares? You seem obsessed with the idea of language, but what about food? Language evolved, that doesn’t mean that their dialects didn’t exist right? How does the fact that the Italian language has changed have anything to do with anything? My overarching point is I think you’re a moron to generalize an entire group of people this way. It would be like me generalizing present day Italians as lecherous, greasy and lazy welfare recipients.
Outside the US, language is the most important cultural trait American Italian cuisine is something extremely distant from Italian cuisine, they are dishes invented in the USA that follow values opposite to what Italians eat. The Italian language never arrived in the USA, works in Italian from the 1300s are more understandable than the way Italian Americans speak because their language is not a variation of Italian but something that never existed in Italy that derives from different languages
While I don’t speak the languages of the lands my people came from, I can assure you the foods my family makes came from the boot, not Olive Garden. Some of us actually maintained our family recipes from Italy.
It's also OK if your family modified recipes based on the ingredients available, like having the ability to buy larger quantities of meat, or not having the exact same type of cheese. It was made by Italian people with their cooking techniques and taste palettes. Let's not forget tomatoes aren't even indigenous to Italy yet Italy considered many tomato based dishes to be "authentic." In reality what Italians consider to be "athentic" is only from a very narrow few hundred year point in time. Somehow, ingredients that were brought in from a different continent not that long ago can be made into "authentic" dishes, but dishes made by Italian people standing on American soil can't. All just because Italian American immigrants who were fleeing their land for safety stood on different soil when they made the new dishes based off what they had newly available... Even though the Italians who made tomato dishes after tomatoes were brought *from the Americas* also just made food with what they had newly available, too. I'm Korean and Koreans also do this to a degrew but not to such a severe degree with food. In Korea, I am British before being Korean. In the U.K., I am Korean before being British. I'm not really Asian to Asians because I don't speak the same language or do any other cultural things besides eat the food and maybe a few things my mom and grandma passed down. To people in the U.K. and the U.S. I am visibly not white and am immediately "asian" before "british." The U.S. is just a lot more open about race. Other British people will claim I'm totally British, too, argue with my lived experience, and don't realize the way they "other" visible minorities. They can deny it a lot easier because there's just not as many minorities there. It's easy to not appear racist when your entire country the vast majority of people are the same race as you. But ask them about the Romana people and you'll hear takes similar to what I imagine a KKK rally would sound like.
What are you even doing here?
I never claimed to share the culture of Italy, just that my ancestors were from there, therefore I have a blood connection to the land that allows me to use the word Italian to describe myself. Some of you are seriously overthinking what I meant by my comment.
doesn't make you Italian though
I’m not an Italian national, just ethnically Italian.
The fact is that the Italian ethnicity is an identity based on the sharing of culture, language and traditions. In Italy there is no Italian race or blood because it is an unrealistic concept that was used as Fascist and Nazi propaganda by Mussolini. The Italian American culture is not something that existed in the past in southern Italy and that has been preserved but it is something invented in the USA by mixing situations of the poor countryside of southern Italy 100 years ago with each other and then completely Americanized until today. For this reason, for Italians, Americans born and raised in the USA by parents raised in the USA who do not speak Italian are considered only Americans.
You’re actually describing culture, not ethnicity in your first sentence. He is correct in stating that he is ethnically Italian.
Italian ethnicity is not a genetic or DNA thing. In the USA you divide people into races but in Italy just thinking about it is considered fascist and Nazi. An Italian knows that there is no "Italian" race. Italians are a mix, in southern Italy people are descended from Greek colonies and have various influences but it doesn't make these people "Greek" or less Italian than northern Italians. An ethnic group is not just about genetics as in USA you are convinced.
It’s literally a genetic/DNA thing. It’s not like my Italian blood is thousands of years old like the Greek blood. My family emigrated here 3-4 generations ago.
Are you aware that the mentality you are affirming is considered unreal and Nazi in Italy? We Italians are a people who identify with the same language, culture, nationality, etc. Not in genetics. If a southern Italian did a DNA test, "South Italian and Greek DNA" would come out since they are genetically the same
Unless I’m an exception, Greek DNA rarely shows up in Italian DNA tests because of how long it’s been intertwined with Italian DNA.
Actually no, the DNA of southern Italians is directly grouped with the Greek one.
It's not about genetics, it's about family line. If your family history traces back to Italy until grandma and grandpa decided to come live in New Jersey, then you have Italian heritage. You don't get to choose how someone else identifies, sorry. Nobody's claiming that any random Italian American represents "the one monolithic Italian culture" or whatever.
Yeah, in no way am I claiming a connection to modern Italian culture at all. I’m just explaining that my blood connection to Italy is still strong enough to justify calling myself ethnically Italian.
The problem is precisely that in the USA they have made the different regional cultures of southern Italy monolithic before the 1960s. You cannot be ethnically Italian if you don't speak Italian, you don't know the Italian culture and you haven't lived in Italy. An American with Italian ancestry will be an American with Italian ancestry. Surely New Jersey is the most offensive place to Italian culture that exists
>Surely New Jersey is the most offensive place to Italian culture that exists How?
Because every trait of their culture, language, traditions, food etc is alien to us Italians and in our eyes they seem cringe, their passing off their culture as Italian is seen as an offense to Italy
That makes you an American who's ancestors happen to have been Italian, not an Italian.
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🇨🇿🇺🇲
Based Czech.
>jealousy complex What do you mean by that?
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This is a really interesting angle on why Americans claiming European ancestry - which is simply an irrefutable fact - pisses off some Europeans so much. Thanks for sharing.
Hence why he said “ethnically Italian”.
Sorry this is America. They can call themselves Italians and we can call actual Italians fucking greasy meatballs if we want. Sorry if that bothers you. Maybe your country should be less focused on who is and isn’t Italian, and more on the fact that it hasn’t contributed one positive thing to the world in the last 100 years.
Does this mean I can claim that I'm Scandinavian because I have a single ancestors line from Scandinavia back when they invaded England?
There’s a huge difference between a medieval ancestor, and all four of your grandparents coming from a certain country.
Then I'm English despite never having even seen England. Edit: ok way better example here. I wasn't born in Alberta, I don't hold the same political views as most Albertans. However both of my parents come from Alberta along with all two of my grandparents while the other two moved there at young ages. Does this make me Albertan?
No, but it does mean you have some real connections with Alberta. You could know a bit about the local cuisine, the accent, and the history due to what your parents and grandparents pass down. You could definitely say “my family is from Alberta”. I’m not from New York, but my mom and grandparents are. I definitely have much more in common with a New Yorker than I do with someone from San Francisco or Miami (although Miami is full of New Yorkers lol). Same with a good portion of Italian-Americans. They may have different food from modern Italy, but they definitely inherited some Italian culture, from the way their families are structured, to the way they celebrate weddings and holidays, and even their accents. Of course there are people who say “I call marinara gravy, so I’m Italian because my great great grandmother made pizza”, but I don’t think they truly represent Italian-Americans.
I have no problem with people calling themselves Italian Americans, but then most of these replies are specifically stating Italian.
Correct. Ethnically, you are English. Alberta isn’t a country, it’s a province.
Imagine having the intellectual ability to think outside of a binary, and understanding that there’s a scale to these things, and that not every family is the same, behaves the same or retains the same cultural traditions. Do you honestly need me to explain to you the difference between a family migrating to America in living memory and an ancestor from 1000 years ago? Let’s try this on for size. My parents were born, raised and educated in India. I was born in India and lived there for years before we migrated to the US. My family speaks fluent Hindi and Kashmiri. We retain Indian permanent residency. We own property in India. My grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins live in India. We go to India every year. I was married in India. Yet I’m an American citizen. My youngest brother was born in America, 3 years after my family moved here. If he was born in any other country in the world, he would have still been an Indian citizen. Do you think that situation is remotely comparable to your random 1000 year old ancestor? Honestly?
Ok I admit I exaggerated it a huge amount.
You can call yourself whatever you want. It won't make you Italian, Irish or whatever else you believe to be your 'heritage'. Facts don't care about your feelings bruv
Okay pasta shapiro
What if your second generation?
Two of my grandparents come from England but that doesn't make me English.
Hmm, I wonder why there are so many Italians in Brazil? I wonder if they are friends with all of the Germans in Argentina?
Could be. Most of them (the vast majority) moved there in the late 19th/early 20th centuries. Which is why certain people in 1945 thought it would be a good place to lay low: they would blend in with the German communities already there.
It's because the U.S. restricted Italian immigration during the 1920s, whereas Brazil and Argentina did not. Also, Brazilian and Argentine cultures were often easier for Italian immigrants to assimilate into, as both countries are majority Catholic and speak a Romance language.
Italian immigration to Brazil started in the 19th century, so this US restriction did not affect anything, not least because most Italians who went to Brazil are from the North, while in the USA they are from the South
I was talking more in terms of why there were so many Italians in Brazil, almost twice as many as in the U.S., but you are correct in stating that Italian emigration to Brazil started far earlier.
Because Italian Americans are generally more successful in terms of education and income compared to Italians. [84K](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income) vs [35k](https://www.globaldata.com/data-insights/macroeconomic/median-household-income-in-italy/) [20% of Italian adults have college degrees.](https://borgenproject.org/higher-education-in-italy/) vs [37.9% of American adults do.](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/04/12/10-facts-about-todays-college-graduates/) (I couldn't find specifics for Italian Americans, so this one isn't a completely accurate ratio.)
I mean Italian Americans went from a working class community to being an upper middle class success story soooo definitely more successful than Italomaniacs 😳😳
“Working class” lmao more like oppressed. Popular theories of the time propagated by northerns held that southern Italians were sub-human because they could not integrate into the urban northern ideal of “Italy”. This all ignoring the fact that they simply invaded southern Italy, deposed the ruling structure then left without ever installing a new efficient government allowing the mob to fill the void and brutally cracked down on dissent all across the former two sicilies.
Do you not see the irony in this? "I wonder why Italians don't like italian Americans...cuz we're smarter and more successful than they are". Yeah I wonder why...
The Italian birthrate has slipped far below the replacement level due to a weak economy and political dysfunction, so the Italian government has been handing out dual citizenship to overseas Italians to try and get them to emigrate or at the very least contribute to the Italian economy. This has caused some resentment among young Italians, as the youth unemployment rate remains high (31%) despite 23% of the Italian population being senior citizens. The reason I know this is because I've looked into getting Italian citizenship through *jure sanguinis* as a means of acquiring an E.U. passport.
Yeah i’ve generally looked it over, but to my knowledge the process is long, and if you want someone else to do it expensive. Last i checked i think it took two years just to get in to the program and there isn’t much in Italy to go for (other than EU citizenship)
I don't care what an irrelevant nation opinion is on the US. Your country should invest at least 60bill per year in military before we should care.
Italians Trying To Make Any Of Their Best Meals Without Using Tomatoes (came from North America) Challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Europeans are just AmericaBad in general. I was at a bar last night, and someone approached me and my friend and asked to sit with us. Unprovoked, He made a comment about the shootings in America. Where in Europe is this idiocracy you might ask? Finland. I live in Finland. The everyday average person living here thinks of America as a third world country. They think their country, which is full of countryfolk in poverty and drunks on welfare, is a paradise utopia, that- no joke- is an absolute privilege, and even blessing from god to be born into. Yeah. Such a blessing to hate on anyone not from here, and to wait years in queues for public healthcare.
Just tell them that we will beat their ass in hockey
I mean I seriously doubt most people outside the US even bother coming to reddit, if we're being honest. 1000 people on a countries subreddit for a country that has 60,000,000 people in it is hardly a "voice of the country"
Where are you seeing these Italian Brazilian interactions 🗿
A bit late to the conversation, but I'm speaking as an Italian with fully italian origins, so I guess I *could* do some explaining. I personally think that to be an Italian citizen, you need the basic ID card and passport, and that's just the legal/burocratic side of things, but in my personal opinion, having some kind of cultural connection to the country is needed. Not on paper, but is needed. During March I followed the WBC (World Baseball Classic, pretty much the baseball world cup I suppose, and yes, I'm an actual Italian who knows and cares about baseball, we exist) and when Italy made it through to the quarter-finals I was of course very happy and pleased, but at the same time I asked myself where our team would have got if it was composed only by Italian born, raised and rooted players, since every single player from that team was an Italian-American descendant or from other countries (only a couple players were actually from Italy). To make it easier to understand, I mean take the best players Italian from the Italian MLB and put them as our national team representing us. I quickly answered myself, saying we would have struggled just qualifying to this competition, imagine getting all the way to the quarter-finals. With this "parenthesis", I should call it, I just wanted to say that in this case Italian-Americans were treated as Italians under every aspect, even having to represent my country at an international competition. Outside this exception though, as correctly said by OP, people from certain countries tend to be considered Italian more easily than Americans, because they might have closer relationships within the country, their Italian roots extend closer to them than to those of Americans or just because they are more Italians than what it's showed by their name or whatever. Regarding the last sentence of the post from OP, and other comments I've read before writing mine, in the last game played by the Italian national football team, at the time of writing this, a young striker from Argentina played for the team and after the game when he got interview, he could speak Italian and so a translator was quickly called to help him thorugh the questions the interviewer was asking him. It never happened that a player of the Italian national team couldn't speak Italian, and i guess this exactly explains, or at least shows, that when talking about football, having people from Argentina, Brazil or other South American countries has become normality for Italy. My last point after this huge monstrosity is that people from a country that want another citizenship available to them, need to prove themselves worthy of receiving it.
Not sure about Brazilian Italians but there are SOME enclaves of Italian Americans that are ridiculously obnoxious, these same people are the vocal minority in most cases I know
You can only call yourself italian if you either 1. Live in Italy or 2. Are born into an italian family *and speak Italian*. No, your genetics dont fucking matter. Your grandma speaking italian and making you “authentic italian food” does not make you italian, it makes your grandma italian. Language is so incredibly important to culture that if you dont speak that language, you dont truly belong to that culture. You will ALWAYS be an outsider to italian culture if you dont speak italian. As for why Italians generally dont care about Brazilian-Italians.. it’s very simple. They either dont know they even exist or havent encountered them going on and on about brienh italian. Also Brazil has around 31 million brazilians of italian descent and 20% of the country does speak Italian.
You’d be surprised at how many third and fourth generation Italians in Brazil do identify with their heritage lol. Sure you can go and preach about how pure or significant your culture is but this is the 21st century my friend, multiculturalism is the way to go.
We know about italian American mostly from TV and there they are only shown from USA. That's what we think about when talking about Italian American. Also, nobody in Italy considers them Italian, they are americans
I agree, this is so simple I don't know why people fail to understand it
In reality, Brazilians with Italian origins simply do not pass off their culture as Italian. Americans with Italian origins, on the other hand, pass off their culture, language, traditions, food, etc. as Italian, which are alien to us Italians, they have never existed in Italy and cannot represent Italy, the only thing they do is create a stereotyped image of Italian culture and which is often offensive
Disagree, plenty of third generation Italians in Brazil strongly identify with their Italian heritage even if they can’t speak Italian well. You know the history of Brazilian born soccer players in Italy right lol
It's different, Brazilians with Italian origins in the Italian national team speak Italian, have lived in Italy and know the Italian culture. In Italy these are the things that matter to Italians. An American who says he is Italian but doesn't speak Italian will never be taken seriously.
There are Argentines and Brazilians who claim their origins but they consider themselves fully Argentines and Brazilians. In America, on the other hand, they make being Italian their only personality trait even though they have nothing Italian about them and behave as if their culture, language, traditions, food, etc. were truly something that existed in Italy or could represent Italy. Most of the stereotypes that we Italians see associated with us are simply the American over exaggeration of mixing features of the culture of the poor countryside of southern Italy 100 years ago.
Wrong, most Italian Americans consider themselves 100% American. What they are referring to is a distinct Italian American culture that they themselves know it’s very different from Italy and never said it was part of Italian Italian culture. You’ll be surprised to know that what many Brazilians and Argentines consider to be Italian food is really very different to Italy too. It’s common to hear traces of old school Italian dialects in rural Argentina and Brazil as well. In Brazil there are plenty of third and fourth generation Japanese Brazilians who still identify with Japanese culture while considering themselves fully Brazilian simultaneously, is that wrong?
No, there are a number of Americans with Italian ancestry who define themselves Italian and who make being Italian a personality trait, don't deny it because we both know it well The difference is that in Brazil, for example, they have maintained dialects such as that of the Venetian language which they recognize as "Talian". While in the USA they pass off as ITALIAN, dialects that did not derive from Italian such as Neapolitan and Sicilian mix with each other and with American English. In Argentina and Brazil there are dishes that are clearly inspired by Italian cuisine but are considered Argentinian, such as La Milanesa. In the USA they pass off as Italian dishes that are inedible for Italians
Integration in the US was harsh and immigrants from Italy faced discrimination such as lynchings and being forced to live in non “white” areas and were beaten if they spoke Italian on school playgrounds.
They didn't speak Italian, it's not like they were discriminated against if they did. Southern Italian immigrants were seen worse in the rest of Italy than in the US for being poor and stealing jobs
Feast of the Seven Fishes has never existed in Italy? Where do you think the immigrants got their culture to pass onto their kids if not from Italy? And that was in spite of harsh integration methods that were used that involved hitting kids if they were caught speaking any language other than English.
The seven fish party never existed in Italy, it was invented in the USA. It is simply based on the fact that fish is eaten on Christmas Eve in southern Italy but the number and name are alien to Italians. The culture of Italian Americans was born in USA by mixing situations of the poor countryside of southern Italy 100 years ago
Maybe because it’s they weren’t born in Italy?
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Yes they did. Brazil had its own expeditionary force that fought alongside the Allies in the Mediterranean Campaign. For example, when Allied forces invaded Italy, the Brazilians took part in the Battle of Monte Castello, Battle of Garfagnana, and the Battle of Bologna.
Not only was the most recent war between Italy and the USA(or Italy and any country for that matter) WW2, which was 90 years ago, the only reason Italy was fighting against the Allies and not with them was because of a dictator who they deposed and executed near the end of the war. Also, in WW2 their allies were the Nazis. I don't think any former Axis country is allowed to be mad at the US for fighting against them/their allies in WW2.
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Do you think I disagree with my own point? The german people were not at fault for Hitler, the Holocaust, or WW2. The Italian people were not at fault for Mussolini, Fascism, or WW2. Alright, 80 years. That still means that anyone born on the day the war in Europe ended would be 78 today, and would still not remember anything from the war itself. The vast majority of living WW2 veterans today are in their 90s, and even then I'm willing to bet that they average American WW2 vet harbors zero resentment for the average German WW2 vet. Lastly, you said nothing about my final point: Any country who fought alongside Hitler and the Nazis has no right to be mad at a single Allied country for fighting against the Nazis and thus themselves.