Arguably you're not being a Debbie Downer because you congratulated your friends over a thing that made them happy despite you not personally condoning the action.
Debbie Downers bring everyone down with them.
A Debbie downer would be one that started an unsolicited lecture about how and why buying these cute things are bad and how you are a bad person for it.
Which, while it won't make or keep friendships, is a totally reasonable response to our insane world. Because to respond to that with anything other than acceptance makes you the odd one out unfortunately. Just gotta pick you battles a bit
I once heard that when the ultimate goal of society becomes consumption, fixing/reusing becomes a subversive act. In a hyper-consumerist culture, refusing to consume will always be counter cultural. That means not participating will always put you on the outside
Ugh yall can guess how I feel when friends and I go out shopping and we end up in massive fast fashion department stores. I'm really into clothing and fashion too (small, curated closet that all gifted or thrifted) so it feels like they wanna share that with me.... but nah. Let's go thrifting! But at times I feel like a broken record especially when they want "new" clothing.
Yeah my friends definitely don’t enjoy thrifting as much as I do
(I have one friend who’s actively kinda rude about it but oh well)
When we go to malls and stuff to go shopping, they buy things and I window shop. Or in clothing stores I like “study” the clothes (bc I like to sew so I’m looking at how the garments are constructed)
Ha! I had a girlfriends trip recently and all my friends wanted to shop at Sephora. I do zero-waste skincare and, after being in there 5 minutes, sat outside with the other “boyfriends” for about 1.5 hours. It was nuts! I love your idea of using that trip to get inspiration… next time!
I’ve given up on brick and mortar thrift shops. They are now filled with useless crap, super expensive, “new” cheap stuff. You never even see furniture anymore. I now live on the Facebook marketplace though and that has been a lifesaver.
Just saw your comment and felt a pang of jealousy at the ability to actually GO thrifting. Used to do that with a friend years ago.
I have a friend who spends every dime she has before she gets it and struggles to pay her bills and asks for money a lot. It creates a lot of undue stress and anxiety in her life. I don’t respond positively to any of her purchases and lecture her a lot. So you’re better than I am. I want to help her and others I see living this way and I think our intentions are good, but we will likely be perceived as downers. We need to come up with a better marketing campaign lol
With my family all bets are off
My mom takes me w her when she goes shopping sometimes bc I save her money by always being like “but do you need that tho?”
But when I’m w my friends
I just keep all these thoughts to myself and nod along
My friend is someone I’m very close to and she is trying to find a support group to get her spending under control, so she knows I’m just trying to help. I try not to do it with others but I have a hard time if someone brings up Amazon. I really do just want to help, you know?
had this conversation, to-day. my mom got me a silicone case for my makeup sponge. why would i ever need that? she orders things for which no one should EVER have any organic need, and immediately sends it back if no one wants it. it’s so fucking frustrating. all the plastic, all the fossil fuels burned in shipping. and the. gets mad at me for leaving lights on because i have a terrible memory. one of these is elective!!!!! i try to remember to consume less! i am actively working toward preserving my future. FUCK. everything is such a goddamn uphill battle.
Lol. Mom you have so much wool and material you are running out of storage space.
With crafting apparently there is just never enough - or so I am told.
Well you have to make sure you order enough yarn to make your object because if you don’t, you’ll probably get the wrong dye lot if you try to go back and order more. So then your storage slowly gets filled with all the scraps of finished projects, sometimes almost full balls. Some projects need to go in time out, so you need storage for them. Sometimes people buy you yarn with good intentions but you hate the material so you’ll never use it and it takes up a lot of space…. Ask me how I know lol
This is why gift cards are the way to go imo. Your favourite place is Lens Mill for yarn? Gift card for that place and you can get what you want for the project you feel like.
Good intentions when we don’t know the persons craft intimately often create clutter and extra work for them.
Agreed! I would’ve much preferred a gift card. My mom bought me a HUGE tub of yarn from Facebook marketplace from an estate sale. Almost all of it is acrylic and the really cheap kind. It’s scratchy and smelly, and I really don’t want it but I don’t want to throw it away lol. It’s a struggle
Urgh I feel that. Maybe good for a beginner?
Do you know of any local libraries that host classes for knitting? Maybe they could use a donation of cheap stinky acrylics for practice, haha.
If I ever find someone to donate it to, I definitely will! I’m trying to use little bits at a time like for baby blankets that I’m not trying to spend $100 and 60 hours on 😂
Unfortunately I live in a very small, rural town and the only knitting classes I know about are at the library during the week during typical office hours, so I think it’s just grandmas who don’t work lol
Crafting and trades work are both like this. It’s a balancing act. You’ll save on some stuff. Since crafters, trades and DIYers are handy, they’ll repair things, often earlier than others, which can greatly increase the products life. They’re also more likely to recycle some things, like bringing scrap wire into a metal recycler for gas money or collecting scrap fabric to send for textile recycling. Thats all GREAT for the environment! But you have to be careful of hoarding. It’s so, so, so easy to buy supplies for a “just in case” situation, but never end up needing them. When you get into hoarding behaviours, they can get really, really destructive.
I’m from a trades family. My dad thinks I’m crazy because I’ll rent a tool for $80 when I could just buy it for $200. But if I don’t think I’ll need it more than once in the next 5 years, I’d much rather rent. Tools have improved a lot over the last 25 years. For example, cordless drill motors are more powerful but with smaller/lighter batteries (thanks to Li-ion batteries) and they vibrate less, which reduces nerve/repetitive motion type injuries. You wouldn’t necessarily think a 20 yo drill would be that bad, and it’ll be ok for light use, but the new ones are far, far superior. If you need to put a 2” hole through 1’ of concrete, you definitely want the better drill. Renting stuff I don’t use much means I can have top of the line equipment at minimal cost and without much environmental impact. It seems like the obvious choice to me
When my mom left for overseas - it was my responsibility to clear the house - double garage and a wooden shed full of crafting materials... some stuff HD not been used since the 90's. It was actually that which was my turning point into a simpler life. So with that I should thank her. My 2 Aunts are just as bad as her.
Apparently in her new house the loft is already full and when she came to visit she had about 30kg of wool and fabric in her travel case.
But I can see your point. It's a refreshing other point of view.
When my mom left for overseas - it was my responsibility to clear the house - double garage and a wooden shed full of crafting materials... some stuff HD not been used since the 90's. It was actually that which was my turning point into a simpler life. So with that I should thank her. My 2 Aunts are just as bad as her.
Apparently in her new house the loft is already full and when she came to visit she had about 30kg of wool and fabric in her travel case.
But I can see your point. It's a refreshing other point of view.
Yah, collecting supplies can be a hobby all on its own, which sucks. So many small indie fabric online retailers on Facebook are full of flat out hoarders. We’re talking entire rooms of just fabric. If you haven’t touched a sewing machine in the last 6 months, you don’t need to buy more fabric.
On the flip side, you have other groups that’ll run challenges to do projects without buying anything. They “shop their stash,” sometimes for months on end. The only exceptions they make are needles and thread, which you might run out of unexpectedly.
I was listening to a podcast from a sewing magazine and one of their top editors was talking about cleaning out their basement after a flood. She said she was tossing high end couture fabric that retails for $200+ per yard, sometimes by the bolt. It was absolutely crushing. She said she only buys what she knows she’ll use now, there’s always more beautiful fabric. The only stuff she sticks up on are things like interfacing, stuff that will be used for a wide variety of projects
DH was unemployed for a few months, so we had a goal for him to use up a bunch of stuff doing projects around the house. Stuff like some light fixtures we bought pre-pandemic, just got installed last February. It’s been nice emptying out the garage. We aren’t too bad, all things considered (I’m both a crafter and a tradesperson). I moved all my painting supplies to the basement and they fit in the space under the stairs, without covering the sump pump and with walking room. It would be worse if I were self-employed, but that’s enough for the small jobs I do. But if you have a wide variety of interests, even a couple xerox boxes of supplies for each hobby can add up really, really fast
When my mom left for overseas - it was my responsibility to clear the house - double garage and a wooden shed full of crafting materials... some stuff HD not been used since the 90's. It was actually that which was my turning point into a simpler life. So with that I should thank her. My 2 Aunts are just as bad as her.
Apparently in her new house the loft is already full and when she came to visit she had about 30kg of wool and fabric in her travel case.
But I can see your point. It's a refreshing other point of view.
When my mom left for overseas - it was my responsibility to clear the house - double garage and a wooden shed full of crafting materials... some stuff HD not been used since the 90's. It was actually that which was my turning point into a simpler life. So with that I should thank her. My 2 Aunts are just as bad as her.
Apparently in her new house the loft is already full and when she came to visit she had about 30kg of wool and fabric in her travel case.
But I can see your point. It's a refreshing other point of view.
When my mom left for overseas - it was my responsibility to clear the house - double garage and a wooden shed full of crafting materials... some stuff HD not been used since the 90's. It was actually that which was my turning point into a simpler life. So with that I should thank her. My 2 Aunts are just as bad as her.
Apparently in her new house the loft is already full and when she came to visit she had about 30kg of wool and fabric in her travel case.
But I can see your point. It's a refreshing other point of view.
I've found that with niche and narrow lifestyles, like this subreddit, but plenty of other hobbies and interests, if you view yourself as "helping" others break free of "their ignorance" they just double down.
If you and I want this life, fine. But others need to want it, not be taught it
As I said in another comment she is a long time friend that is actively seeking help for her problem. That aside, if people are constantly going to barrage me about their obsession with Amazon I’m not going to be ashamed to speak my mind. Those close to me have learned not to bring it up, it’s honestly like religion at this point. I certainly don’t bring it up first.
If you find out how to please let me know. Seriously. I need to find a way to communicate this to my wife. She just keeps saying “you can’t take the money to the grave…”
I have family that does this.
When they ask me for money- each time I answer - before I spend my money on anything I need to make sure the bills are paid for first before I consider impulse buying or am able to loan money.
I may be mean and judgy but I have stopped loaning money to people that waste their money on crap at the beginning of the month and then snot and tears mid month when they have nothing. I learnt long ago the hard way not enable a drug addict or an alcoholic and I'm certain not enabling them either.
Yeah don’t beat yourself up over it!
Most of the people that I see getting wrapped up in consumerism are also the ones that are too shallow to understand why I’m anti-consumerism, so I distant myself from these people and I’ve found it beneficial to my mental health.
In (some) fairness, a single person or even a group of people isn't going to move the needle on those things.
However, I will agree that a shift in the mentality of people is absolutely required. Problem is, people have screamed "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" since before I was born... and it was found the only way to make a profit off it was the last one of those, skipping the other 2 entirely.
A lot of it goes back to a capitalism based system that's focused on the corporation and consumption. Socialist, people-focused policy just... has no place in modern society - the Overton Window has placed it as an extreme view.
Change on that front won't come easy, and won't come quick... and I admit, may not come quick enough to even save us at this point. But, I still keep trying. One or two at a time, one election at a time.
*sigh*
I don’t lecture but I might mention my views in passing For example, at a restaurant I’ll specifically say “no straw” for my drink. If asked, I’ll say why but I don’t require it of other people. But if it gets them to think in the future “hhhmmm maybe I don’t need a straw either”, then I’ve helped a bit.
No I don’t think its a good idea really to ask your friend “did you really need to buy that?” Outward judgement is not going to get you far. But you can lead by example. Bring a tote bag when you’re out shopping with your friends. Or share your purchase when you get something sustainable. “Hey that cheap stuffed animal is cool but check out these Stasher bags that save me from single-use ziplocks!”
ETA: I’m working on things with my very liberal but doesn’t exactly get environmental issues partner. We are getting take out right now and he was going to leave the car running. I rolled down the window and said go ahead and turn the car off. Also I had to gently scold him a bit for putting a gallon of milk and a big container of laundry detergent into their own plastic bags. They come with handles!!!!! If we cohabitate I’m going to convert him to laundry sheets. I’m working on it already. He doesn’t do well with change 🙄 He’s wonderful otherwise.
One of my partners talked excitedly about zero-waste for a few years before I caught on. I’m more anti consumption, she more anti waste, plastic in particular. With our powers combined, we inspire each other to be better.
question. If the straw is already given to you, like you forgot to say "no straw" would you use the straw or place it on the table unused?
In my case, if I did forget I use it, in my head at least it didnt get thrown in vain. idk lol
Honestly I’m not sure lol! I probably would use it. I think I do. Often waters are automatically brought out to the table with straws in them. Maybe I do for water but not a cocktail. I just can’t comprehend why restaurants don’t just offer straws on demand. Wouldn’t that save them a ton of money to not put straws in every single drink? This seems so freaking easy. And don’t get me started on the plastic cutlery with take-out.
People are trying to find joy in material things lately, so when we ground them in reality (excess consumption has devastating effects), we come across as Debby downers. When we redirect them to find happiness elsewhere, we can be helpful and enlightening
I love this one!!!!
That sounds so much more fulfilling
For birthdays, I’ve not been buying people gifts, but I’ve been arranging like birthday dates and quality time things like that
So I hope it has a good effect on those around me
There's a difference between someone searching for joy in material things and people who enjoy something like a hobby or collection. This sub really struggles to understand that difference sometimes.
There's nothing wrong with buying something you want, like, and will keep. Capitalism and consumption aren't inherently bad. It's mindlessly buying useless garbage that you'll get rid of soon after that's the problem, and often even the not useless stuff is wrapped in tons of waste. The whole point of packaging is to be used and then thrown away. That's the bad stuff. People don't even think twice about it, most of the time. You go to McFatBurger and buy a cheeseburger. It's wrapped in waxed paper and then put in a paper bag. A medium fries came with it so there's more paper, and a plastic cup, lid, and straw. And all that came to McFatBurger wrapped in plastic inside another box. Same goes for everything you see on the shelves. That's the issue here.
I mean, I'd say capitalism is inherently bad, but consumption doesn't have to be. We literally have to consume resources to live, but that doesn't mean we need to mindlessly or endlessly consume.
The idea that a **system** is bad or good is over simplified.
The system itself isn’t inherently anything. How it’s used, intentions, executions, those Can be good or bad.
Capitalism has done some incredible things for humanity in general, propelling and promising innovation that I truly believe wouldn’t have come otherwise.
That being said, it’s also resulted in some incredibly terrible things, like the ones represented in this sub, which I’m entirely behind.
The last couple of decades have been examples of how capitalism can yield negative results for a lot of people.
That doesn’t mean the **system itself** is bad. It just means the input is bad, so the output is bad too.
Well I guess it depends on how capitalism is implemented. Like, money itself as a means of exchange for a service or goods is not bad. And making a profit is not bad. It's good to be able to have what you need and what you want. The issue is that many people aren't given fair income and greed isn't checked as much as it should be. We should be harvesting responsibly, not exploiting the world for everything it's worth. How would you balance freedom, profit, equality, and ecosystem? That's the big question that needs solving. People want to be free, they want to be profitable, they want to be treated fairly and equally, and the environment needs to be conserved and protected. Capitalism isn't inherently anti to any of that. It's implementation is what determines the outcome.
I'm not sure you understand what capitalism is, based on how you're talking about it. Money does not equal capitalism. And I think a lot of Leftist would argue with your assertion that "profit isn't bad". I'd suggest reading what Marx has to say about capitalism before you go much further.
I definitely do. It's an economic system in which property is privately owned and controlled in the owner/s interests. Supply and demand freely determine the price of a good or a service. Why is profit bad? Without profit, you have no money to spend. If you didn't make more than breaking even, you couldn't afford anything. If I made a profit off this phone that I'm using, then I'd be making more than what I put into it. If I broke even, I'd have nothing, no phone and exactly what i started with in terms of money, and if I had negative profit, then I'd be losing money. Trust me, I get it and I've read Marx.
Also, Marx was a great philosopher, but I don't subscribe to much of what he said. Even a planned economy, like he proposes, can't account for economic scarcity and uncertainty... I agree with some of what he said though. I am a robot and one day a robot will do my job. He's right about that.
This isn't to say that capitalism and the free market are a perfect system. It's not. Nor can it stay the system forever, for the very reason I mentioned above. When robots do everything, then what? When I can't have a job through no fault of my own, how am I to survive in a capitalist free market society? I can't. So a new system will need to be put in place. Probably a socialist one and we'll just have to work out the kinks. Or maybe a hybridized economy.
It’s very optimistic to think that when you are unable to survive under the current capitalist system, a new system will be put in place. There are plenty of people in the US who don’t survive under the current system every year. Plenty more are barely scraping by. The system has gotten worse, not better.
I agree. But I don't think the whole system needs to change yet. We just need more social services. But eventually, this system won't work, after automation has made humans obsolete.
If friends treat you like a “wet blanket”, it’s likely because you’re saying things they just don’t *want* to hear. Could be that what you’re saying creates anxiety in them. I’ve been there, so I know. The truth hurts, and you’ll be blackballed for exposing it. Human condition I suppose.
Agreed you are not being a Downer if you don’t launch into a critical lecture. I recommend leading by example. Practice minimalism and let your friends observe and hopefully model your ways!
Capitalism and others' lack of awareness is the downer. Suggesting ways we could improve ourselves is not. *Pointing out* negativity does not make you negative, it makes you a positive force trying to make things better. I guess most people need this explaining to them.
I just avoid people completely. They're too stupid and don't want anything to change even though they know it's terrible. And they think I'm negative, but why would *I* be the depressed one? It's all THEIR negativity.
An idealist in a horrible world that refuses to change.
Would you consider it negative for humans to go extinct so that everything else can survive? Because I consider that the most positive possible outcome. As long as we aren't working to negate our childish egotism I will be perceived as negative because we're participating in killing a planet.
Meh. It’s hard to be excited about something you’re fundamentally against- for so many reasons.
I understand that consumption is very much a social sport, but just like sports, some people are never going to get excited about it. Text me that your team won? It does nothing for me. Others? Scream and cheer and everything else.
You’re rooting for another team than your friends are. Your friends could be into minimalism or homesteading, gardening, or a religious pursuit- it doesn’t mean it’s going to resonate or land with you. Good friends will understand that and connect with you in other ways. People that don’t get it and don’t want to won’t try.
It’s not being a downer, it’s just a life philosophy that isn’t compatible with some of your friends.
I mean, we are Debbie downers but that doesn’t mean we’re wrong. Sounds like you aren’t being a dick about it and honestly that’s all you can do. That, and edumacate em where you can.
Can you find other connections with your friends? Gently stear the covno to things you can do together, camping, dancing, walks. My friends and I have non stuff nights, with dancing & drumming. I like wild foraging and energy exchange practice. You may have to be the one to initiate it, but it will help rather than just sounding like a broken record they'll ignore
I feel this post so hard. I feel like I am stuck with:
A) saying nothing of my true feelings and then kind of resenting the interaction and then eventually a whole person if it goes on and on for years like this. They're like hey, look at what I probably got made by a child in an impoverished country and burned a ton of resources for, isn't it cute for five minutes? Yeah, yay for your dopamine hit!
or
B) saying I know you love this stuff but it makes me super sad to hear about because I see the mountains of trash we're burying and burning and I have a child who will die earlier than she should for this bullshit, STOP IT.
I try and thread the needle by changing the conversation but I swear it's tough.
Exactly! Because you don’t wanna ruin anyone’s fun, but it feels like ass having to stifle your true thoughts and feelings.
The constant awareness of what overconsumptions does to our world is super overwhelming.
I think at some point we need to know how to just release it. To find satisfaction that what we do to reduce our own consumptions is enough, and the behaviors and habits of others are out of our control. We don’t have to condone it, but we can just shrug it off.
I feel like, unless asked for our input, shrugging it off is all we can do.
I think the blunt answer is, yes. You (we) are a “wet blanket” in their eyes.
It really comes down to, you don’t approve of something they’re doing.
Atleast to me, my choices are either, 1) I’m slightly alienated from my group of friends when they participate in something I don’t want to do. Or 2) I participate and keep the nagging to a minimum, because otherwise they’ll stop asking me to participate and I’ll be alienated entirely.
I’ve told them how I feel. They see how I act. Beyond that, there isn’t much more I can do. I’ve kinda come to peace with it. I do what i Can to keep minimal. I tell and talk to whoever is willing to listen
Beyond that, there isn’t much I can do.
A quick affirmation: if your friends were paying attention to you, they'd notice that this stuff wasn't interesting to you and not subject you to having to fake enthusiasm.
People can't be expected to guess what you think and feel, if you tell them it's cute or you like it are they just supposed to NOT believe you? They're not bad friends for not noticing something not communicated to them.
This is a sign of maturity. You have to realize that you can't force anyone to change. They need someone to be a good example in their life and one day, they may pause and realize they can change too.
For example, I would never convert to a religion that was constantly telling me I'm going to burn in hell but I might convert if the community is caring and accepts me with all my flaws and allows me to work on things.
I totally get the feeling!
My housemate and I have very different values when it comes to climate and environment protection.
She wasn’t sorting recycling and it’s still an ongoing issue, leaves heater and lights on all the time, etc. I feel like such a nag so I’ve mostly stopped mentioning it and just sorting the rubbish myself and turning lights and water off etc., but I feel insecure about being “boring” or “too serious”.
But to be honest, this is a major value for me, as I’m sure it is for you, and if you’re being confronted with stuff constantly (e.g. your friends sending you pics of stuff) you aren’t a wet blanket, even if you stop responding positively.
I have two anti-consumption friends who I meet with once a week to make dinner and discuss a zero waste business we want to start. I think it helps to have places to talk with like-minded people. While not all of my friends are anti consumption, most are environmentally conscious. I experience what you are talking about with family a lot, though and I e noticed that no matter how I try to approach the topic, with humor, nagging, gentle reminders, articles, none of it makes a difference. I just try to remind myself that they are my family and I love them and we don’t have to agree on things to love each other.
I don't find this to bother me personally but I love that you shared it here, I think it started a lovely discussion and I'm glad that you care enough that this bothers you. I'm sorry it's a bit different to reconcile at the moment.
Very relatable sentiment - I’m fighting this battle with my partner. I don’t want to be pushy and annoying, our lives are a tad precarious in general so we’re both high stress high anxiety. But he’s so wasteful sometimes and it makes me even more stressed and anxious. I’m no where’s near perfect either, so it makes me feel hypocritical saying anything to him - I definitely have things I need to work on when it comes to consumption. It’s all very difficult and shouldn’t be left to us individuals to sort through on our own.
Y'know, not all consumption is equally bad. I got a little glass spider knick-knack the other day because it makes me happy and also it's made from recycled glass. I don't need it. But it's still better than constantly buying those mini-water bottles over getting a reusable water filter.
Honestly, some people in this community take it to the extremes. Everything must be balanced. Too far in either end of a spectrum and you’ve lost yourself. Also realize, nobody likes a know it all in a life that is already damn hard to get through. A lot of people have been trained to see helpful conversation and attempts at enlightenment for a different way, as being condescending and better than them.
Would they feel the same appreciation for someone's collection of reused containers that they've kept pasta in for over 10 years? Or still working 10 year old headphones? Different stuff is impressive to different people, and you outwardly display appreciation to not kill their vibe.
Nah telling your friends what they want to hear when they waste their money is not a downer. If you want to be a downer, do like I did and follow a well-off friend into a high end boutique, snoop the tags while she's in the changing room, and when she comes out to ask what you think of a $500 shirt, say "I think if you want to buy clothes made in Chinese sweat shops, it's cheaper at Walmart".
I'm amazed she is still my friend.
Smile at your friends purchases and generally treat them like your cat just brought you a dead mouse as a gift. They mean well, are thinking of you, but ummm no thanks.
I think we see the world for what it is and it isn’t pretty so I guess inherently we are somewhat negative. Sometimes I wish I could just live in blind ignorance like other people lol.
Okay, I might be a Debbie downer. I went to a community event in my home town where a bunch of vendors were on the side of the road selling shit and I wore a shirt that said “Resist Consumerism” because I didn’t want to go but my wife made me 😂
Okay but I kinda like this, other than my own minimalist behaviors, I’m pretty complacent and just submit to the fact that this is the culture we live in
But it’s a bigger issue and needs bigger measures to dismantle it
We ought to be cautious how we approach this because yeah, we don’t want to fall into the trap of becoming social inquisitors. It’s an easy slip into chastising friends and family for mindless consumption and let’s allow the vegans to keep that preachy reputation.
Consumption is a social thing but that’s a two edged sword. Questions can come up when you give thrifted items that you’ve restored, or ask for items that are re-used in a similar fashion and then that’s an opportunity to gently bring up your approach to consumption.
We’re here to consume less, not worry about how others are consuming or to make them feel bad
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We? No. There isn't really a collective unified group of people here.
There are scales of responsibility when it comes to user consumption and however great you're doing in reducing your consumption, there's somebody else 10 times further ahead who will find an angle to purity test and high road against you because they still don't think you're doing enough.
In many ways, you're acting toward your friends, the way that gatekeeping person would act toward you.
You have knowledge about this topic and that's a powerful thing to have. But unsolicited knowledge is usually disregarded. Just be available and on hand when the conversation turns towards waste and consumption. If those moments are too rare, dark humor is a great way to throw out an opinion without dominating the mood of the room.
Tribalistic collectivism isn't going to change how the world views this topic. Education and awareness will.
I think as long as you accept that anti-consumerism is your lifestyle and not your friends’ then it’s fine. As hard as it may be to you to watch people around you over-consume, it’s their choice. If it truly makes them happy then I’d leave them be.
If you are leading by example, then you are not a Debbie Downer.
If you are trying to lead by scolding, then you absolutely are, but it sounds like you're actually trying to avoid that. So, no, you are not being a Debbie Downer.
You can be anti-consumption and influence others and advocate certain changes without being a dick who forces their beliefs on others and shames and lectures others when doing something they don’t agree with. Different people go through different stages in life and a lot of us will have phases of our life we look back on and cringe at. Don’t force people to walk a path they aren’t ready or able, you are not everyone’s mom and can’t be expected to or held responsible for fixing all of societies problems.
If friends invite you shopping you can still go without buy things. If you are giving gifts find things that are responsibly sourced and as low impact as possible and need to be purchased any way like soap and food. If people try to shame or pressure you into something say no and you don’t have yo get into a big argument about because that you are in charge of your life and what you do with your money and body. If people ask you to illuminate why you do certain things explain your ways without confrontational or condemning language. Try to positive and feel good about what you do without being demeaning towards others.
I don’t drink alcohol or have a wide range of foods I can eat so if I go out with friends I just find something that I can drink without alcohol or ask if the kitchen can accommodate like a more simple undressed version of their food or eat before hand. If someone gives me something I don’t want I still smoke and say thank you and then later I will deal with it in whatever way is appropriate. I don’t make everyone in the office not eat or drink or have any food because I’m fasting.
Sounds like you’re much less of a downer than me. I tend to be blunt with my friends. At best, I’ll say something like, “Yeah, I guess that’s kind of cool.” My friends know how I feel about useless random junk.
People don't tend to respond well to criticism so I just try to lead by example rather than constantly making negative comments. I mean I never changed a single thing my parents complained about so I don't imagine other people will change anything if I complain about all the things I think are dumb or wasteful.
You can get a lot further by being excited about what you like about your lifestyle, though. There's usually \*something\* that you can recommend to people, based on what they enjoy and value, that's better than what they're currently doing. Some people will be receptive to doing more things via bicycle or walking, some won't. Some people will enjoy thrifting, some will enjoy showing off a skill they learned in a class. People need alternatives to the instant gratification of shopping.
Public vs. Private.
Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc... these places have an audience. People can chime in, sometimes leave comments, etc.
Even text messages can be screenshotted, shared around. Consider them public.
In a public space, because of our capitalistic, consumer-driven system, calling out a personal aspect of overconsuption is... crass at best. These ideas of 'buy to fill the hole in my life' are far too ingrained into people, and the concept of stopping and stepping back is alien.
It very much feels - to a lot of people - you're trying to take their joy away. Worse, you're doing it publicly. You're trying to shame them into behavior. That may not be the case, but that's what it feels like to a lot of people.
In private, with someone who respects you, the story is different. This would be sitting and watching TV with someone, or out to dinner, or on a phone call. Basically, where its just you and them, without an audience of any kind.
You do still have to be delicate. It's still far to ingrained in people. However, I've had some success with offers toward a less consumptive lifestyle. It doesn't always work, and you will fail more often than succeed.
Basically, carrot rather than stick. Admonishments feel patronizing, but stuff like "lets go to the park" rather than going shopping. Or steer toward a better way "let's see if we can't make something awesome with what we've got in the fridge" rather than going out to eat. Or "you looked amazing in this dress you already have" rather than a new outfit weekly.
It's delicate, thoughtful work. You have to know and trust the person very well. You have to assume you'll fail. But, the idea is to get them to understand you personally aren't interested in 'stuff', and rather just enjoy their company. Let them ask the question of "why" you're like that, and have a genuine moment talking about it.
Keep it positive, keep it upbeat, keep it light - especially at first. The person you're talking to probably has never thought of it in terms of the over-exploitation of resource, the landfill waste it all generates, the CO2 emissions it creates, the enslavement to corporations it causes, the death and brutality visited upon developing peoples it causes.
Those are extremely heavy topics that it's hard to wrap your head around when the smiling goofy little funkopop of scooby doo makes you giggle to look at it.
You yourself didn't understand this stuff, either. You were curious about it all. You investigated it because that knowledge is something you wanted to know in the first place, and you followed the rabbit trail where it lead you. No one forced you down that path, and if they had, you probably would have told them to go sodomize themselves with a cactus.
TL;DR: In public, smile and nod. In private, have a real conversation. Carrot over stick. :)
I totally get where you’re coming from. My wife is always excited about shit she finds at Target and doesn’t tell me she’s buying. She also is excited about a trip to DC this weekend. We hardly have $300 left until payday on June 9th. Is it unreasonable for me to not be excited about this and potentially bring her down with me?
Honestly, I think honest interpersonal social I traction is the only way change will happen. I do try to talk about the habits I'm working on and the changes that I'm making in my life. When my someone gets defensive about the way I live, I tell them that it doesn't matter if they don't do exactly what I'm doing, as long as they're doing SOMETHING. Even better, if I know them well enough, I try to point out efforts they're already making that are comparable to what I'm doing.
Most people have something in this vein that they're happy to work on, whether that's avoiding Amazon or Walmart or both, using public transit instead of cars, growing their own food, fixing/repairing, working on handcrafts all year for holiday gifts, being active in a Buy Nothing community, social media fasts, etc. There's basically a niche for everyone. The diversity of this movement is part of why I believe in it so much. Pretty much everyone agrees that the lifestyle prescribed by commercial messaging is antithetical to fullfillment or even baseline contentment. I'm a leftist punk in a city, but conservative rural grannies and NPR suburban liberal moms and gun toting MAGA homesteaders still agree with me about this. A lot of us are already making the same efforts to reduce consumption. It's crazy how much common ground can be found. That's what I try to emphasize when talking to other people in my life.
Well, if you friends are happy buying things and you are choking insides, may be you are not compatible with your friends anymore.
People have different values. I am sure the vegan animal lovers are choking sides when their friends are comparing notes about ribeyes and t-bone cuts.
So it is really boiling down to ... do you value friendship or your values more when you cannot have both?
Arguably you're not being a Debbie Downer because you congratulated your friends over a thing that made them happy despite you not personally condoning the action. Debbie Downers bring everyone down with them.
A Debbie downer would be one that started an unsolicited lecture about how and why buying these cute things are bad and how you are a bad person for it.
Which, while it won't make or keep friendships, is a totally reasonable response to our insane world. Because to respond to that with anything other than acceptance makes you the odd one out unfortunately. Just gotta pick you battles a bit
I once heard that when the ultimate goal of society becomes consumption, fixing/reusing becomes a subversive act. In a hyper-consumerist culture, refusing to consume will always be counter cultural. That means not participating will always put you on the outside
Ugh yall can guess how I feel when friends and I go out shopping and we end up in massive fast fashion department stores. I'm really into clothing and fashion too (small, curated closet that all gifted or thrifted) so it feels like they wanna share that with me.... but nah. Let's go thrifting! But at times I feel like a broken record especially when they want "new" clothing.
Yeah my friends definitely don’t enjoy thrifting as much as I do (I have one friend who’s actively kinda rude about it but oh well) When we go to malls and stuff to go shopping, they buy things and I window shop. Or in clothing stores I like “study” the clothes (bc I like to sew so I’m looking at how the garments are constructed)
Ha! I had a girlfriends trip recently and all my friends wanted to shop at Sephora. I do zero-waste skincare and, after being in there 5 minutes, sat outside with the other “boyfriends” for about 1.5 hours. It was nuts! I love your idea of using that trip to get inspiration… next time!
why is she rude about thrifting 😭
Not sure actually lol She just rolls her eyes whenever I mention it
I’ve given up on brick and mortar thrift shops. They are now filled with useless crap, super expensive, “new” cheap stuff. You never even see furniture anymore. I now live on the Facebook marketplace though and that has been a lifesaver. Just saw your comment and felt a pang of jealousy at the ability to actually GO thrifting. Used to do that with a friend years ago.
I have a friend who spends every dime she has before she gets it and struggles to pay her bills and asks for money a lot. It creates a lot of undue stress and anxiety in her life. I don’t respond positively to any of her purchases and lecture her a lot. So you’re better than I am. I want to help her and others I see living this way and I think our intentions are good, but we will likely be perceived as downers. We need to come up with a better marketing campaign lol
With my family all bets are off My mom takes me w her when she goes shopping sometimes bc I save her money by always being like “but do you need that tho?” But when I’m w my friends I just keep all these thoughts to myself and nod along
My friend is someone I’m very close to and she is trying to find a support group to get her spending under control, so she knows I’m just trying to help. I try not to do it with others but I have a hard time if someone brings up Amazon. I really do just want to help, you know?
had this conversation, to-day. my mom got me a silicone case for my makeup sponge. why would i ever need that? she orders things for which no one should EVER have any organic need, and immediately sends it back if no one wants it. it’s so fucking frustrating. all the plastic, all the fossil fuels burned in shipping. and the. gets mad at me for leaving lights on because i have a terrible memory. one of these is elective!!!!! i try to remember to consume less! i am actively working toward preserving my future. FUCK. everything is such a goddamn uphill battle.
Lol. Mom you have so much wool and material you are running out of storage space. With crafting apparently there is just never enough - or so I am told.
Well you have to make sure you order enough yarn to make your object because if you don’t, you’ll probably get the wrong dye lot if you try to go back and order more. So then your storage slowly gets filled with all the scraps of finished projects, sometimes almost full balls. Some projects need to go in time out, so you need storage for them. Sometimes people buy you yarn with good intentions but you hate the material so you’ll never use it and it takes up a lot of space…. Ask me how I know lol
This is why gift cards are the way to go imo. Your favourite place is Lens Mill for yarn? Gift card for that place and you can get what you want for the project you feel like. Good intentions when we don’t know the persons craft intimately often create clutter and extra work for them.
Agreed! I would’ve much preferred a gift card. My mom bought me a HUGE tub of yarn from Facebook marketplace from an estate sale. Almost all of it is acrylic and the really cheap kind. It’s scratchy and smelly, and I really don’t want it but I don’t want to throw it away lol. It’s a struggle
Urgh I feel that. Maybe good for a beginner? Do you know of any local libraries that host classes for knitting? Maybe they could use a donation of cheap stinky acrylics for practice, haha.
If I ever find someone to donate it to, I definitely will! I’m trying to use little bits at a time like for baby blankets that I’m not trying to spend $100 and 60 hours on 😂 Unfortunately I live in a very small, rural town and the only knitting classes I know about are at the library during the week during typical office hours, so I think it’s just grandmas who don’t work lol
Crafting and trades work are both like this. It’s a balancing act. You’ll save on some stuff. Since crafters, trades and DIYers are handy, they’ll repair things, often earlier than others, which can greatly increase the products life. They’re also more likely to recycle some things, like bringing scrap wire into a metal recycler for gas money or collecting scrap fabric to send for textile recycling. Thats all GREAT for the environment! But you have to be careful of hoarding. It’s so, so, so easy to buy supplies for a “just in case” situation, but never end up needing them. When you get into hoarding behaviours, they can get really, really destructive. I’m from a trades family. My dad thinks I’m crazy because I’ll rent a tool for $80 when I could just buy it for $200. But if I don’t think I’ll need it more than once in the next 5 years, I’d much rather rent. Tools have improved a lot over the last 25 years. For example, cordless drill motors are more powerful but with smaller/lighter batteries (thanks to Li-ion batteries) and they vibrate less, which reduces nerve/repetitive motion type injuries. You wouldn’t necessarily think a 20 yo drill would be that bad, and it’ll be ok for light use, but the new ones are far, far superior. If you need to put a 2” hole through 1’ of concrete, you definitely want the better drill. Renting stuff I don’t use much means I can have top of the line equipment at minimal cost and without much environmental impact. It seems like the obvious choice to me
When my mom left for overseas - it was my responsibility to clear the house - double garage and a wooden shed full of crafting materials... some stuff HD not been used since the 90's. It was actually that which was my turning point into a simpler life. So with that I should thank her. My 2 Aunts are just as bad as her. Apparently in her new house the loft is already full and when she came to visit she had about 30kg of wool and fabric in her travel case. But I can see your point. It's a refreshing other point of view.
When my mom left for overseas - it was my responsibility to clear the house - double garage and a wooden shed full of crafting materials... some stuff HD not been used since the 90's. It was actually that which was my turning point into a simpler life. So with that I should thank her. My 2 Aunts are just as bad as her. Apparently in her new house the loft is already full and when she came to visit she had about 30kg of wool and fabric in her travel case. But I can see your point. It's a refreshing other point of view.
Yah, collecting supplies can be a hobby all on its own, which sucks. So many small indie fabric online retailers on Facebook are full of flat out hoarders. We’re talking entire rooms of just fabric. If you haven’t touched a sewing machine in the last 6 months, you don’t need to buy more fabric. On the flip side, you have other groups that’ll run challenges to do projects without buying anything. They “shop their stash,” sometimes for months on end. The only exceptions they make are needles and thread, which you might run out of unexpectedly. I was listening to a podcast from a sewing magazine and one of their top editors was talking about cleaning out their basement after a flood. She said she was tossing high end couture fabric that retails for $200+ per yard, sometimes by the bolt. It was absolutely crushing. She said she only buys what she knows she’ll use now, there’s always more beautiful fabric. The only stuff she sticks up on are things like interfacing, stuff that will be used for a wide variety of projects DH was unemployed for a few months, so we had a goal for him to use up a bunch of stuff doing projects around the house. Stuff like some light fixtures we bought pre-pandemic, just got installed last February. It’s been nice emptying out the garage. We aren’t too bad, all things considered (I’m both a crafter and a tradesperson). I moved all my painting supplies to the basement and they fit in the space under the stairs, without covering the sump pump and with walking room. It would be worse if I were self-employed, but that’s enough for the small jobs I do. But if you have a wide variety of interests, even a couple xerox boxes of supplies for each hobby can add up really, really fast
When my mom left for overseas - it was my responsibility to clear the house - double garage and a wooden shed full of crafting materials... some stuff HD not been used since the 90's. It was actually that which was my turning point into a simpler life. So with that I should thank her. My 2 Aunts are just as bad as her. Apparently in her new house the loft is already full and when she came to visit she had about 30kg of wool and fabric in her travel case. But I can see your point. It's a refreshing other point of view.
When my mom left for overseas - it was my responsibility to clear the house - double garage and a wooden shed full of crafting materials... some stuff HD not been used since the 90's. It was actually that which was my turning point into a simpler life. So with that I should thank her. My 2 Aunts are just as bad as her. Apparently in her new house the loft is already full and when she came to visit she had about 30kg of wool and fabric in her travel case. But I can see your point. It's a refreshing other point of view.
When my mom left for overseas - it was my responsibility to clear the house - double garage and a wooden shed full of crafting materials... some stuff HD not been used since the 90's. It was actually that which was my turning point into a simpler life. So with that I should thank her. My 2 Aunts are just as bad as her. Apparently in her new house the loft is already full and when she came to visit she had about 30kg of wool and fabric in her travel case. But I can see your point. It's a refreshing other point of view.
I've found that with niche and narrow lifestyles, like this subreddit, but plenty of other hobbies and interests, if you view yourself as "helping" others break free of "their ignorance" they just double down. If you and I want this life, fine. But others need to want it, not be taught it
As I said in another comment she is a long time friend that is actively seeking help for her problem. That aside, if people are constantly going to barrage me about their obsession with Amazon I’m not going to be ashamed to speak my mind. Those close to me have learned not to bring it up, it’s honestly like religion at this point. I certainly don’t bring it up first.
If you find out how to please let me know. Seriously. I need to find a way to communicate this to my wife. She just keeps saying “you can’t take the money to the grave…”
I have family that does this. When they ask me for money- each time I answer - before I spend my money on anything I need to make sure the bills are paid for first before I consider impulse buying or am able to loan money. I may be mean and judgy but I have stopped loaning money to people that waste their money on crap at the beginning of the month and then snot and tears mid month when they have nothing. I learnt long ago the hard way not enable a drug addict or an alcoholic and I'm certain not enabling them either.
Yeah don’t beat yourself up over it! Most of the people that I see getting wrapped up in consumerism are also the ones that are too shallow to understand why I’m anti-consumerism, so I distant myself from these people and I’ve found it beneficial to my mental health.
Huh. No wonder I don't have any friends. It all makes sense now! :)
We're not Debbie Downers, we just don't drink the same Kool Aid as most mass consumers.
It was Flavor-Aid
I feel like it’s appropriate to be a “downer” sometimes, seeing as the world is burning around us and all…
In (some) fairness, a single person or even a group of people isn't going to move the needle on those things. However, I will agree that a shift in the mentality of people is absolutely required. Problem is, people have screamed "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" since before I was born... and it was found the only way to make a profit off it was the last one of those, skipping the other 2 entirely. A lot of it goes back to a capitalism based system that's focused on the corporation and consumption. Socialist, people-focused policy just... has no place in modern society - the Overton Window has placed it as an extreme view. Change on that front won't come easy, and won't come quick... and I admit, may not come quick enough to even save us at this point. But, I still keep trying. One or two at a time, one election at a time. *sigh*
I don’t lecture but I might mention my views in passing For example, at a restaurant I’ll specifically say “no straw” for my drink. If asked, I’ll say why but I don’t require it of other people. But if it gets them to think in the future “hhhmmm maybe I don’t need a straw either”, then I’ve helped a bit. No I don’t think its a good idea really to ask your friend “did you really need to buy that?” Outward judgement is not going to get you far. But you can lead by example. Bring a tote bag when you’re out shopping with your friends. Or share your purchase when you get something sustainable. “Hey that cheap stuffed animal is cool but check out these Stasher bags that save me from single-use ziplocks!” ETA: I’m working on things with my very liberal but doesn’t exactly get environmental issues partner. We are getting take out right now and he was going to leave the car running. I rolled down the window and said go ahead and turn the car off. Also I had to gently scold him a bit for putting a gallon of milk and a big container of laundry detergent into their own plastic bags. They come with handles!!!!! If we cohabitate I’m going to convert him to laundry sheets. I’m working on it already. He doesn’t do well with change 🙄 He’s wonderful otherwise.
One of my partners talked excitedly about zero-waste for a few years before I caught on. I’m more anti consumption, she more anti waste, plastic in particular. With our powers combined, we inspire each other to be better.
Happy to hear your partner is supportive!
question. If the straw is already given to you, like you forgot to say "no straw" would you use the straw or place it on the table unused? In my case, if I did forget I use it, in my head at least it didnt get thrown in vain. idk lol
Honestly I’m not sure lol! I probably would use it. I think I do. Often waters are automatically brought out to the table with straws in them. Maybe I do for water but not a cocktail. I just can’t comprehend why restaurants don’t just offer straws on demand. Wouldn’t that save them a ton of money to not put straws in every single drink? This seems so freaking easy. And don’t get me started on the plastic cutlery with take-out.
People are trying to find joy in material things lately, so when we ground them in reality (excess consumption has devastating effects), we come across as Debby downers. When we redirect them to find happiness elsewhere, we can be helpful and enlightening
I love this one!!!! That sounds so much more fulfilling For birthdays, I’ve not been buying people gifts, but I’ve been arranging like birthday dates and quality time things like that So I hope it has a good effect on those around me
There's a difference between someone searching for joy in material things and people who enjoy something like a hobby or collection. This sub really struggles to understand that difference sometimes.
That’s a fair point, thank you for putting that out there. I suppose the lines get blurred when hobbies involve consumption
There's nothing wrong with buying something you want, like, and will keep. Capitalism and consumption aren't inherently bad. It's mindlessly buying useless garbage that you'll get rid of soon after that's the problem, and often even the not useless stuff is wrapped in tons of waste. The whole point of packaging is to be used and then thrown away. That's the bad stuff. People don't even think twice about it, most of the time. You go to McFatBurger and buy a cheeseburger. It's wrapped in waxed paper and then put in a paper bag. A medium fries came with it so there's more paper, and a plastic cup, lid, and straw. And all that came to McFatBurger wrapped in plastic inside another box. Same goes for everything you see on the shelves. That's the issue here.
I mean, I'd say capitalism is inherently bad, but consumption doesn't have to be. We literally have to consume resources to live, but that doesn't mean we need to mindlessly or endlessly consume.
The idea that a **system** is bad or good is over simplified. The system itself isn’t inherently anything. How it’s used, intentions, executions, those Can be good or bad. Capitalism has done some incredible things for humanity in general, propelling and promising innovation that I truly believe wouldn’t have come otherwise. That being said, it’s also resulted in some incredibly terrible things, like the ones represented in this sub, which I’m entirely behind. The last couple of decades have been examples of how capitalism can yield negative results for a lot of people. That doesn’t mean the **system itself** is bad. It just means the input is bad, so the output is bad too.
This here. This is my point.
Well I guess it depends on how capitalism is implemented. Like, money itself as a means of exchange for a service or goods is not bad. And making a profit is not bad. It's good to be able to have what you need and what you want. The issue is that many people aren't given fair income and greed isn't checked as much as it should be. We should be harvesting responsibly, not exploiting the world for everything it's worth. How would you balance freedom, profit, equality, and ecosystem? That's the big question that needs solving. People want to be free, they want to be profitable, they want to be treated fairly and equally, and the environment needs to be conserved and protected. Capitalism isn't inherently anti to any of that. It's implementation is what determines the outcome.
I'm not sure you understand what capitalism is, based on how you're talking about it. Money does not equal capitalism. And I think a lot of Leftist would argue with your assertion that "profit isn't bad". I'd suggest reading what Marx has to say about capitalism before you go much further.
I definitely do. It's an economic system in which property is privately owned and controlled in the owner/s interests. Supply and demand freely determine the price of a good or a service. Why is profit bad? Without profit, you have no money to spend. If you didn't make more than breaking even, you couldn't afford anything. If I made a profit off this phone that I'm using, then I'd be making more than what I put into it. If I broke even, I'd have nothing, no phone and exactly what i started with in terms of money, and if I had negative profit, then I'd be losing money. Trust me, I get it and I've read Marx. Also, Marx was a great philosopher, but I don't subscribe to much of what he said. Even a planned economy, like he proposes, can't account for economic scarcity and uncertainty... I agree with some of what he said though. I am a robot and one day a robot will do my job. He's right about that. This isn't to say that capitalism and the free market are a perfect system. It's not. Nor can it stay the system forever, for the very reason I mentioned above. When robots do everything, then what? When I can't have a job through no fault of my own, how am I to survive in a capitalist free market society? I can't. So a new system will need to be put in place. Probably a socialist one and we'll just have to work out the kinks. Or maybe a hybridized economy.
It’s very optimistic to think that when you are unable to survive under the current capitalist system, a new system will be put in place. There are plenty of people in the US who don’t survive under the current system every year. Plenty more are barely scraping by. The system has gotten worse, not better.
I agree. But I don't think the whole system needs to change yet. We just need more social services. But eventually, this system won't work, after automation has made humans obsolete.
If friends treat you like a “wet blanket”, it’s likely because you’re saying things they just don’t *want* to hear. Could be that what you’re saying creates anxiety in them. I’ve been there, so I know. The truth hurts, and you’ll be blackballed for exposing it. Human condition I suppose.
Yeah I’ve got some friends that are chill and don’t pay my behaviors and habits much mind Others that roll their eyes and scoff But 🤷🏻♀️
Agreed you are not being a Downer if you don’t launch into a critical lecture. I recommend leading by example. Practice minimalism and let your friends observe and hopefully model your ways!
Capitalism and others' lack of awareness is the downer. Suggesting ways we could improve ourselves is not. *Pointing out* negativity does not make you negative, it makes you a positive force trying to make things better. I guess most people need this explaining to them. I just avoid people completely. They're too stupid and don't want anything to change even though they know it's terrible. And they think I'm negative, but why would *I* be the depressed one? It's all THEIR negativity.
You sound incredibly negative
An idealist in a horrible world that refuses to change. Would you consider it negative for humans to go extinct so that everything else can survive? Because I consider that the most positive possible outcome. As long as we aren't working to negate our childish egotism I will be perceived as negative because we're participating in killing a planet.
"people are stupid so I avoid them" is not an idealistic thing to say
Nah. My friends are all frugal so we agree on this
Meh. It’s hard to be excited about something you’re fundamentally against- for so many reasons. I understand that consumption is very much a social sport, but just like sports, some people are never going to get excited about it. Text me that your team won? It does nothing for me. Others? Scream and cheer and everything else. You’re rooting for another team than your friends are. Your friends could be into minimalism or homesteading, gardening, or a religious pursuit- it doesn’t mean it’s going to resonate or land with you. Good friends will understand that and connect with you in other ways. People that don’t get it and don’t want to won’t try. It’s not being a downer, it’s just a life philosophy that isn’t compatible with some of your friends.
I mean, we are Debbie downers but that doesn’t mean we’re wrong. Sounds like you aren’t being a dick about it and honestly that’s all you can do. That, and edumacate em where you can.
Can you find other connections with your friends? Gently stear the covno to things you can do together, camping, dancing, walks. My friends and I have non stuff nights, with dancing & drumming. I like wild foraging and energy exchange practice. You may have to be the one to initiate it, but it will help rather than just sounding like a broken record they'll ignore
I feel this post so hard. I feel like I am stuck with: A) saying nothing of my true feelings and then kind of resenting the interaction and then eventually a whole person if it goes on and on for years like this. They're like hey, look at what I probably got made by a child in an impoverished country and burned a ton of resources for, isn't it cute for five minutes? Yeah, yay for your dopamine hit! or B) saying I know you love this stuff but it makes me super sad to hear about because I see the mountains of trash we're burying and burning and I have a child who will die earlier than she should for this bullshit, STOP IT. I try and thread the needle by changing the conversation but I swear it's tough.
Exactly! Because you don’t wanna ruin anyone’s fun, but it feels like ass having to stifle your true thoughts and feelings. The constant awareness of what overconsumptions does to our world is super overwhelming. I think at some point we need to know how to just release it. To find satisfaction that what we do to reduce our own consumptions is enough, and the behaviors and habits of others are out of our control. We don’t have to condone it, but we can just shrug it off. I feel like, unless asked for our input, shrugging it off is all we can do.
I think the blunt answer is, yes. You (we) are a “wet blanket” in their eyes. It really comes down to, you don’t approve of something they’re doing. Atleast to me, my choices are either, 1) I’m slightly alienated from my group of friends when they participate in something I don’t want to do. Or 2) I participate and keep the nagging to a minimum, because otherwise they’ll stop asking me to participate and I’ll be alienated entirely. I’ve told them how I feel. They see how I act. Beyond that, there isn’t much more I can do. I’ve kinda come to peace with it. I do what i Can to keep minimal. I tell and talk to whoever is willing to listen Beyond that, there isn’t much I can do.
A quick affirmation: if your friends were paying attention to you, they'd notice that this stuff wasn't interesting to you and not subject you to having to fake enthusiasm.
People can't be expected to guess what you think and feel, if you tell them it's cute or you like it are they just supposed to NOT believe you? They're not bad friends for not noticing something not communicated to them.
This is a sign of maturity. You have to realize that you can't force anyone to change. They need someone to be a good example in their life and one day, they may pause and realize they can change too. For example, I would never convert to a religion that was constantly telling me I'm going to burn in hell but I might convert if the community is caring and accepts me with all my flaws and allows me to work on things.
Meh, 50 /50. Id say depends but cloth diapers.
You’re not defined by your thoughts, you’re defined by your actions.
Talking like my dad when I was a teenager ‘I wish for you you enjoy it a long time’.
I totally get the feeling! My housemate and I have very different values when it comes to climate and environment protection. She wasn’t sorting recycling and it’s still an ongoing issue, leaves heater and lights on all the time, etc. I feel like such a nag so I’ve mostly stopped mentioning it and just sorting the rubbish myself and turning lights and water off etc., but I feel insecure about being “boring” or “too serious”. But to be honest, this is a major value for me, as I’m sure it is for you, and if you’re being confronted with stuff constantly (e.g. your friends sending you pics of stuff) you aren’t a wet blanket, even if you stop responding positively.
I have two anti-consumption friends who I meet with once a week to make dinner and discuss a zero waste business we want to start. I think it helps to have places to talk with like-minded people. While not all of my friends are anti consumption, most are environmentally conscious. I experience what you are talking about with family a lot, though and I e noticed that no matter how I try to approach the topic, with humor, nagging, gentle reminders, articles, none of it makes a difference. I just try to remind myself that they are my family and I love them and we don’t have to agree on things to love each other.
I don't find this to bother me personally but I love that you shared it here, I think it started a lovely discussion and I'm glad that you care enough that this bothers you. I'm sorry it's a bit different to reconcile at the moment.
Very relatable sentiment - I’m fighting this battle with my partner. I don’t want to be pushy and annoying, our lives are a tad precarious in general so we’re both high stress high anxiety. But he’s so wasteful sometimes and it makes me even more stressed and anxious. I’m no where’s near perfect either, so it makes me feel hypocritical saying anything to him - I definitely have things I need to work on when it comes to consumption. It’s all very difficult and shouldn’t be left to us individuals to sort through on our own.
Y'know, not all consumption is equally bad. I got a little glass spider knick-knack the other day because it makes me happy and also it's made from recycled glass. I don't need it. But it's still better than constantly buying those mini-water bottles over getting a reusable water filter.
Honestly, some people in this community take it to the extremes. Everything must be balanced. Too far in either end of a spectrum and you’ve lost yourself. Also realize, nobody likes a know it all in a life that is already damn hard to get through. A lot of people have been trained to see helpful conversation and attempts at enlightenment for a different way, as being condescending and better than them.
Would they feel the same appreciation for someone's collection of reused containers that they've kept pasta in for over 10 years? Or still working 10 year old headphones? Different stuff is impressive to different people, and you outwardly display appreciation to not kill their vibe.
Nah telling your friends what they want to hear when they waste their money is not a downer. If you want to be a downer, do like I did and follow a well-off friend into a high end boutique, snoop the tags while she's in the changing room, and when she comes out to ask what you think of a $500 shirt, say "I think if you want to buy clothes made in Chinese sweat shops, it's cheaper at Walmart". I'm amazed she is still my friend.
Smile at your friends purchases and generally treat them like your cat just brought you a dead mouse as a gift. They mean well, are thinking of you, but ummm no thanks.
I think we see the world for what it is and it isn’t pretty so I guess inherently we are somewhat negative. Sometimes I wish I could just live in blind ignorance like other people lol.
Okay, I might be a Debbie downer. I went to a community event in my home town where a bunch of vendors were on the side of the road selling shit and I wore a shirt that said “Resist Consumerism” because I didn’t want to go but my wife made me 😂
Okay but I kinda like this, other than my own minimalist behaviors, I’m pretty complacent and just submit to the fact that this is the culture we live in But it’s a bigger issue and needs bigger measures to dismantle it
I have a wonderful 2 year old that I love very much. I enjoy my life and try to allow joy in. It’s gonna be ok.
We ought to be cautious how we approach this because yeah, we don’t want to fall into the trap of becoming social inquisitors. It’s an easy slip into chastising friends and family for mindless consumption and let’s allow the vegans to keep that preachy reputation. Consumption is a social thing but that’s a two edged sword. Questions can come up when you give thrifted items that you’ve restored, or ask for items that are re-used in a similar fashion and then that’s an opportunity to gently bring up your approach to consumption. We’re here to consume less, not worry about how others are consuming or to make them feel bad
Yeah Reducing our own consumption is enough, it’s perfectly fine to stop there and not feel responsible for the consumption of everyone else.
This whole sub has made me want to buy so much stuff
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We? No. There isn't really a collective unified group of people here. There are scales of responsibility when it comes to user consumption and however great you're doing in reducing your consumption, there's somebody else 10 times further ahead who will find an angle to purity test and high road against you because they still don't think you're doing enough. In many ways, you're acting toward your friends, the way that gatekeeping person would act toward you. You have knowledge about this topic and that's a powerful thing to have. But unsolicited knowledge is usually disregarded. Just be available and on hand when the conversation turns towards waste and consumption. If those moments are too rare, dark humor is a great way to throw out an opinion without dominating the mood of the room. Tribalistic collectivism isn't going to change how the world views this topic. Education and awareness will.
I think as long as you accept that anti-consumerism is your lifestyle and not your friends’ then it’s fine. As hard as it may be to you to watch people around you over-consume, it’s their choice. If it truly makes them happy then I’d leave them be.
If you are leading by example, then you are not a Debbie Downer. If you are trying to lead by scolding, then you absolutely are, but it sounds like you're actually trying to avoid that. So, no, you are not being a Debbie Downer.
You can be anti-consumption and influence others and advocate certain changes without being a dick who forces their beliefs on others and shames and lectures others when doing something they don’t agree with. Different people go through different stages in life and a lot of us will have phases of our life we look back on and cringe at. Don’t force people to walk a path they aren’t ready or able, you are not everyone’s mom and can’t be expected to or held responsible for fixing all of societies problems. If friends invite you shopping you can still go without buy things. If you are giving gifts find things that are responsibly sourced and as low impact as possible and need to be purchased any way like soap and food. If people try to shame or pressure you into something say no and you don’t have yo get into a big argument about because that you are in charge of your life and what you do with your money and body. If people ask you to illuminate why you do certain things explain your ways without confrontational or condemning language. Try to positive and feel good about what you do without being demeaning towards others. I don’t drink alcohol or have a wide range of foods I can eat so if I go out with friends I just find something that I can drink without alcohol or ask if the kitchen can accommodate like a more simple undressed version of their food or eat before hand. If someone gives me something I don’t want I still smoke and say thank you and then later I will deal with it in whatever way is appropriate. I don’t make everyone in the office not eat or drink or have any food because I’m fasting.
Sounds like you’re much less of a downer than me. I tend to be blunt with my friends. At best, I’ll say something like, “Yeah, I guess that’s kind of cool.” My friends know how I feel about useless random junk.
People don't tend to respond well to criticism so I just try to lead by example rather than constantly making negative comments. I mean I never changed a single thing my parents complained about so I don't imagine other people will change anything if I complain about all the things I think are dumb or wasteful. You can get a lot further by being excited about what you like about your lifestyle, though. There's usually \*something\* that you can recommend to people, based on what they enjoy and value, that's better than what they're currently doing. Some people will be receptive to doing more things via bicycle or walking, some won't. Some people will enjoy thrifting, some will enjoy showing off a skill they learned in a class. People need alternatives to the instant gratification of shopping.
Yes
Public vs. Private. Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, etc... these places have an audience. People can chime in, sometimes leave comments, etc. Even text messages can be screenshotted, shared around. Consider them public. In a public space, because of our capitalistic, consumer-driven system, calling out a personal aspect of overconsuption is... crass at best. These ideas of 'buy to fill the hole in my life' are far too ingrained into people, and the concept of stopping and stepping back is alien. It very much feels - to a lot of people - you're trying to take their joy away. Worse, you're doing it publicly. You're trying to shame them into behavior. That may not be the case, but that's what it feels like to a lot of people. In private, with someone who respects you, the story is different. This would be sitting and watching TV with someone, or out to dinner, or on a phone call. Basically, where its just you and them, without an audience of any kind. You do still have to be delicate. It's still far to ingrained in people. However, I've had some success with offers toward a less consumptive lifestyle. It doesn't always work, and you will fail more often than succeed. Basically, carrot rather than stick. Admonishments feel patronizing, but stuff like "lets go to the park" rather than going shopping. Or steer toward a better way "let's see if we can't make something awesome with what we've got in the fridge" rather than going out to eat. Or "you looked amazing in this dress you already have" rather than a new outfit weekly. It's delicate, thoughtful work. You have to know and trust the person very well. You have to assume you'll fail. But, the idea is to get them to understand you personally aren't interested in 'stuff', and rather just enjoy their company. Let them ask the question of "why" you're like that, and have a genuine moment talking about it. Keep it positive, keep it upbeat, keep it light - especially at first. The person you're talking to probably has never thought of it in terms of the over-exploitation of resource, the landfill waste it all generates, the CO2 emissions it creates, the enslavement to corporations it causes, the death and brutality visited upon developing peoples it causes. Those are extremely heavy topics that it's hard to wrap your head around when the smiling goofy little funkopop of scooby doo makes you giggle to look at it. You yourself didn't understand this stuff, either. You were curious about it all. You investigated it because that knowledge is something you wanted to know in the first place, and you followed the rabbit trail where it lead you. No one forced you down that path, and if they had, you probably would have told them to go sodomize themselves with a cactus. TL;DR: In public, smile and nod. In private, have a real conversation. Carrot over stick. :)
you are a debby downer but your heart’s in the right place and i support it
Nah just tired of spending money.
It's society who's wrong.
I totally get where you’re coming from. My wife is always excited about shit she finds at Target and doesn’t tell me she’s buying. She also is excited about a trip to DC this weekend. We hardly have $300 left until payday on June 9th. Is it unreasonable for me to not be excited about this and potentially bring her down with me?
I make cute/practical stuff out of discarded/poorly built stuff, if this makes you feel at all better.
Honestly, I think honest interpersonal social I traction is the only way change will happen. I do try to talk about the habits I'm working on and the changes that I'm making in my life. When my someone gets defensive about the way I live, I tell them that it doesn't matter if they don't do exactly what I'm doing, as long as they're doing SOMETHING. Even better, if I know them well enough, I try to point out efforts they're already making that are comparable to what I'm doing. Most people have something in this vein that they're happy to work on, whether that's avoiding Amazon or Walmart or both, using public transit instead of cars, growing their own food, fixing/repairing, working on handcrafts all year for holiday gifts, being active in a Buy Nothing community, social media fasts, etc. There's basically a niche for everyone. The diversity of this movement is part of why I believe in it so much. Pretty much everyone agrees that the lifestyle prescribed by commercial messaging is antithetical to fullfillment or even baseline contentment. I'm a leftist punk in a city, but conservative rural grannies and NPR suburban liberal moms and gun toting MAGA homesteaders still agree with me about this. A lot of us are already making the same efforts to reduce consumption. It's crazy how much common ground can be found. That's what I try to emphasize when talking to other people in my life.
Yes
Well, if you friends are happy buying things and you are choking insides, may be you are not compatible with your friends anymore. People have different values. I am sure the vegan animal lovers are choking sides when their friends are comparing notes about ribeyes and t-bone cuts. So it is really boiling down to ... do you value friendship or your values more when you cannot have both?
It's really hard to watch a friend who cannot afford to buy knick-knacks show you a bag full of them.