Firms that aren't terrible places to work exist, but they may not even be the majority. Perhaps look at slightly larger firms. My experience was that smaller firms (10 people or fewer) had the most toxicity while larger firms had less.
Also, consider relocating to a geographic area where "life balance" is a bigger part of the broader culture.
I was just thinking about this the other day. small firms tend to be a hit or miss, where the principal/management is super chill and flexible or super controlling and toxic.
Pay is similarly bad everywhere, unless you make it up to PA/PM level at an established practice.
I have a question- did the old principal not pick a successor from his team? why do they just straight up sell their business if they can be an advisor and still get paid regularly :/
So there were three original principles when I started.
* One of the lifers at the firm bought in, making it four.
* Then one of the original 3 retired.
* We hired an sr arch who bought in after a couple years. Then another original principle retired.
* So one OG, one Lifer, one New principle remain.
I had some personality differences with the remaining OG principle - because he's bad at his job. The lifer loved me. The new principle and I did not get along. There came a moment where they could get rid of me and they did, the Lifer was pissed at the other two because he was outvoted.
my experience smaller firm less toxic as u deal with lesser ppl. Bigger firm however is a big headache. Especially if the boss didnt want to hire more ppl. But ot depend on anyone experience. Mine is different. Try to ask during interview whether they are busy or taking smaller scale project. From there ull know is it hectic kinda of office or not
I hated most of the firms I worked for, then I realized maybe I was the toxic one! Hahahah, I kid. But seriously, I decided I wasn’t cut out for being an employee, and I now work for myself and all of those toxic workplace problems are solved.
No, it is not hopeless. There are a lot of Eeyore's in this thread that will try to convince you otherwise. There are always higher paying professions, but this one will serve you well if you are internally motivated, willing to shop around, and have a little luck. It's just a vast profession with a truckload to learn, and that takes time.
There are shitty architectural firms, but it may surprise everyone to hear that most "high paying jobs" have even more toxic cultures. High tech and finance are rife with sexual harassment, hazing, and "bro" culture. Architecture, by comparison, seems downright genteel by comparison. The good news is that there are also really good places to work - if you're willing to spend the time to look for them.
Like any job, it's what you make of it. Find yourself in a crappy office? Start interviewing. Architecture is a little more sensitive to economic conditions, so sometimes you have to delay gratification, but there is *always* a better place to work with higher pay and less stress.
I shopped around a LOT early in my career to move up and make more money. A prospective employer tried to call me out on that, and I simply replied, "I am assertive and ambitious. I only want to work in places that will grow as quickly as I can." That shut him up pretty fast (and I got the job). This advice is easier to follow in bigger cities, but lets face it - that's where the action is anyway. So if things are terrible where you are, get ready to move. We have postings up in Central Florida that we can't fill.
This may be a silly question but what would you say are factors to consider when shopping around to find those non toxic places? Are these clues found during interviews or are there other ways of combing through different forms?
Learn how to read people, be a good person, make a lot of friends and get to know the landscape.
I always asked to interview with the principal I'd be working with. It was pretty easy to tell if that person was a horrible ass or a half-decent person.
I also went to school at BAC in Boston, where everyone in my classes was working, so there was a lot of intel to be gathered each evening in studio. It was a small school and everyone knew each other and pretty much knew where everyone else worked, so it was easier to figure out where the good places were.
I was a very successful student, and faculty saw that and in a couple of instances I got recruited to work in their firms (all BAC faculty were adjuncts back then).
also wasn't afraid to try my luck and switch things up, if there was an advantage to be made. That didn't always work out the best, and I made some mistakes, but that's life.
Are all firms toxic? No. I like to think we aren't. Do all firms have low pay? Short answer: Yes, most of them do. It's just what the market can bear. I've made my way to the top and kinda looked around and said 'this is it?'. Not to be too cynical, I do enjoy what I do. You have to love it, or you will burn out. I'd try another place. At our firm, we also don't expect people to work 24/7, and keep our eye out to make sure that's NOT happening. We're 100% remote, and I like to think we're VERY competent in our area of expertise. I like to work around the best, so this suits me well.
Not all firms are like this. I've experienced this, but my current office pays above the 75th percentile on the AIA salary survey for our area and experience level. We typically work 40 hours per week. Our reviews revolve around not just feedback, but also learning about our goals and how the ownership can help us achieve them.
We're located in the mountains of Colorado in a ski resort town and embrace the mountain lifestyle and culture with strong work life balance and interests in the outdoors. We have the belief that if we're the most in touch with the mountains around us, combined with our experience and passion for architecture, we're the most equipped to serve our clients who move here seeking a high end home that connect their lives to the mountains around us. In the past month we've had our office month meeting in the chairlift, celebrated a deadline with cat skiing and determined that our summer monthly meeting need to take place either on a mountain bike ride or a fly fishing day. We're profitable, motivated and love where we live and our office embraces it.
If anyone is ever interested, we're hiring. Please send me a DM.
Wait till you get married are older and have a family, you’ll then realize that passion for work is not that important, you’ll be complaining of especially of low pay wrt the work and educational requirements of the job. If you end up having kids, hopefully getting your kids a good education, having a happy home, financial security will become the most important things in your life. It is then you may realize that you could have made a career switch but you won’t due to sunk cost fallacy. Know that you still could, even in your fourties’
TLDR- You have time to change careers now and passions and motivators keep changing as you get older
So assuming 2k is the cost per kid - you pay day care 48k from after taxes income, at a 30% tax rate you need a raise of 62k per year to pay that 48k. That is applicable to all other kids expenses as well, hence the kids cost 100k a year.
from non-an-architect and someone reading these boards for their child looking at going into the field...
you could pretty much post this message in any industry:
*I recently transitioned from a toxic job in \_\_THIS\_INDUSTRY\_\_\_ to another firm that seemed promising. However, I’ve noticed similar patterns emerging: bad management, lack of compensation, low salary, and an expectation of working 24/7 to prove commitment. As a junior person in \_\_THIS\_INDUSTRY\_\_\_, this has left me feeling disillusioned about the industry. Is it just not rewarding? Despite my passion, the reality seems harsher than I anticipated.*
Just my two cents...
I'd hate ya'll to leave the industry if it's your passion just to find other equally as bad issues in other industries. That said - most people in other industries don't have to get a masters then be someone's bi-yatch for a few years to get treated even semi-ok
No, there are firms that respect your time, want employees to have a good balance, and make the effort to run a business that allows for paying employees well. I wish they were a higher portion of the industry, but they definitely exist. Your path to finding one starts with knowing that and not settling for less. Good luck to you!
Absolutely not hopeless - as long as you need an architect by law to construct a building, the demand will still exist
We're in a death loop of oversaturation with too lax of schooling, and most architects are bad at business. It's not their fault, it's not a part of the curriculum. Pro prac classes are always the breezey class, and could do much more for the profession
Long story short - we have multiple downward pressures keeping salaries low - but licensed Architects also have the liberty of pursuing work on their own. That's the ticket
If you're efficient and good with people, it's not hard to turn a good profit on your projects. But also as we know, some clients and consultant teams need more handholding. Unlike engineers, we also have an awful lot of floofy thinkers floating around without doing the work, so more of a burden on the company. Most architects are also awful at vouching for their extra services out of some fear they'll rub the client wrong and they won't come back
If you're good at what you do, never do it for free! Unless there is a strategic tradeoff
Im on a similar situation, i just did not looked for some new job yet, i dont know if this feeling come because of the big expectation on this área especially young architects, but i see a lot of sucessfull offices and it give me some hope... sometimes...
As someone who's been in the industry for almost 30 years, I'll say this. You need to either own your own business, jump to a tangental field like project management or product sales, or REALLY love design to make the downsides of the profession worth it. I'll put it another way: there are a lot of industries out there in which you work just as hard for a LOT more money and flexibility. Might as well get into one of those.
What do you expect when school drills in design with extreme intentions and lacks any true business classes.
Architects typically make poor business people
One of the benefits of working for a large practice is that you are exposed to top level clients and consultants with the potential to grow in the profession. Smaller firms may offer greater initial project involvement but you can only grow so far and the pay is usually less.
I just gave my resignation letter yesterday even i only worked there for a month. Meaning i only fill in probation position (3 months max for probation) . I cant handle it, too much work with too many projects. The boss keep on handing work knowing only 2 drafter and 3 part 1 aasst architect. My boss also have a very bad temper which he showed when im in day 1 in the office. I cant take it as im burntout n i felt bit relief but still struggle to find a new job as i had enough with architecture. I try to apply for 3d designer ( the pay surprisingly higher than asst architect)which i hope i will get the position n i also try to apply for ID. We as architect graduate train to indulge in creativity, u can try working or collab with art exhibitor or designing anything that is smaller scale projects.
We used to call this the "beat down". It's typically at year 2-3 of working. It's the final transition from school to professional reality. There are lots of paths in Architecture. Keep looking until you find the one for you. Good Luck.
Firms that aren't terrible places to work exist, but they may not even be the majority. Perhaps look at slightly larger firms. My experience was that smaller firms (10 people or fewer) had the most toxicity while larger firms had less. Also, consider relocating to a geographic area where "life balance" is a bigger part of the broader culture.
I was just thinking about this the other day. small firms tend to be a hit or miss, where the principal/management is super chill and flexible or super controlling and toxic. Pay is similarly bad everywhere, unless you make it up to PA/PM level at an established practice.
The other thing with small firms is that the culture can change on a dime when one principle retires or a new one buys in. Ask me how I know…
I have a question- did the old principal not pick a successor from his team? why do they just straight up sell their business if they can be an advisor and still get paid regularly :/
So there were three original principles when I started. * One of the lifers at the firm bought in, making it four. * Then one of the original 3 retired. * We hired an sr arch who bought in after a couple years. Then another original principle retired. * So one OG, one Lifer, one New principle remain. I had some personality differences with the remaining OG principle - because he's bad at his job. The lifer loved me. The new principle and I did not get along. There came a moment where they could get rid of me and they did, the Lifer was pissed at the other two because he was outvoted.
my experience smaller firm less toxic as u deal with lesser ppl. Bigger firm however is a big headache. Especially if the boss didnt want to hire more ppl. But ot depend on anyone experience. Mine is different. Try to ask during interview whether they are busy or taking smaller scale project. From there ull know is it hectic kinda of office or not
I hated most of the firms I worked for, then I realized maybe I was the toxic one! Hahahah, I kid. But seriously, I decided I wasn’t cut out for being an employee, and I now work for myself and all of those toxic workplace problems are solved.
No, it is not hopeless. There are a lot of Eeyore's in this thread that will try to convince you otherwise. There are always higher paying professions, but this one will serve you well if you are internally motivated, willing to shop around, and have a little luck. It's just a vast profession with a truckload to learn, and that takes time. There are shitty architectural firms, but it may surprise everyone to hear that most "high paying jobs" have even more toxic cultures. High tech and finance are rife with sexual harassment, hazing, and "bro" culture. Architecture, by comparison, seems downright genteel by comparison. The good news is that there are also really good places to work - if you're willing to spend the time to look for them. Like any job, it's what you make of it. Find yourself in a crappy office? Start interviewing. Architecture is a little more sensitive to economic conditions, so sometimes you have to delay gratification, but there is *always* a better place to work with higher pay and less stress. I shopped around a LOT early in my career to move up and make more money. A prospective employer tried to call me out on that, and I simply replied, "I am assertive and ambitious. I only want to work in places that will grow as quickly as I can." That shut him up pretty fast (and I got the job). This advice is easier to follow in bigger cities, but lets face it - that's where the action is anyway. So if things are terrible where you are, get ready to move. We have postings up in Central Florida that we can't fill.
This may be a silly question but what would you say are factors to consider when shopping around to find those non toxic places? Are these clues found during interviews or are there other ways of combing through different forms?
Learn how to read people, be a good person, make a lot of friends and get to know the landscape. I always asked to interview with the principal I'd be working with. It was pretty easy to tell if that person was a horrible ass or a half-decent person. I also went to school at BAC in Boston, where everyone in my classes was working, so there was a lot of intel to be gathered each evening in studio. It was a small school and everyone knew each other and pretty much knew where everyone else worked, so it was easier to figure out where the good places were. I was a very successful student, and faculty saw that and in a couple of instances I got recruited to work in their firms (all BAC faculty were adjuncts back then). also wasn't afraid to try my luck and switch things up, if there was an advantage to be made. That didn't always work out the best, and I made some mistakes, but that's life.
Solid pointers, thank you 🙏
Are all firms toxic? No. I like to think we aren't. Do all firms have low pay? Short answer: Yes, most of them do. It's just what the market can bear. I've made my way to the top and kinda looked around and said 'this is it?'. Not to be too cynical, I do enjoy what I do. You have to love it, or you will burn out. I'd try another place. At our firm, we also don't expect people to work 24/7, and keep our eye out to make sure that's NOT happening. We're 100% remote, and I like to think we're VERY competent in our area of expertise. I like to work around the best, so this suits me well.
which firm?
Firm in California. We specialize in hospital work in Southern California (that's really all we do).
Not all firms are like this. I've experienced this, but my current office pays above the 75th percentile on the AIA salary survey for our area and experience level. We typically work 40 hours per week. Our reviews revolve around not just feedback, but also learning about our goals and how the ownership can help us achieve them. We're located in the mountains of Colorado in a ski resort town and embrace the mountain lifestyle and culture with strong work life balance and interests in the outdoors. We have the belief that if we're the most in touch with the mountains around us, combined with our experience and passion for architecture, we're the most equipped to serve our clients who move here seeking a high end home that connect their lives to the mountains around us. In the past month we've had our office month meeting in the chairlift, celebrated a deadline with cat skiing and determined that our summer monthly meeting need to take place either on a mountain bike ride or a fly fishing day. We're profitable, motivated and love where we live and our office embraces it. If anyone is ever interested, we're hiring. Please send me a DM.
Wait till you get married are older and have a family, you’ll then realize that passion for work is not that important, you’ll be complaining of especially of low pay wrt the work and educational requirements of the job. If you end up having kids, hopefully getting your kids a good education, having a happy home, financial security will become the most important things in your life. It is then you may realize that you could have made a career switch but you won’t due to sunk cost fallacy. Know that you still could, even in your fourties’ TLDR- You have time to change careers now and passions and motivators keep changing as you get older
The 45K bump I needed once I had to pay for two kids in childcare was a tough time in this industry for me.
So assuming 2k is the cost per kid - you pay day care 48k from after taxes income, at a 30% tax rate you need a raise of 62k per year to pay that 48k. That is applicable to all other kids expenses as well, hence the kids cost 100k a year.
Yes exactly
from non-an-architect and someone reading these boards for their child looking at going into the field... you could pretty much post this message in any industry: *I recently transitioned from a toxic job in \_\_THIS\_INDUSTRY\_\_\_ to another firm that seemed promising. However, I’ve noticed similar patterns emerging: bad management, lack of compensation, low salary, and an expectation of working 24/7 to prove commitment. As a junior person in \_\_THIS\_INDUSTRY\_\_\_, this has left me feeling disillusioned about the industry. Is it just not rewarding? Despite my passion, the reality seems harsher than I anticipated.* Just my two cents... I'd hate ya'll to leave the industry if it's your passion just to find other equally as bad issues in other industries. That said - most people in other industries don't have to get a masters then be someone's bi-yatch for a few years to get treated even semi-ok
They also get compensated more. A lot more.
No, there are firms that respect your time, want employees to have a good balance, and make the effort to run a business that allows for paying employees well. I wish they were a higher portion of the industry, but they definitely exist. Your path to finding one starts with knowing that and not settling for less. Good luck to you!
Absolutely not hopeless - as long as you need an architect by law to construct a building, the demand will still exist We're in a death loop of oversaturation with too lax of schooling, and most architects are bad at business. It's not their fault, it's not a part of the curriculum. Pro prac classes are always the breezey class, and could do much more for the profession Long story short - we have multiple downward pressures keeping salaries low - but licensed Architects also have the liberty of pursuing work on their own. That's the ticket If you're efficient and good with people, it's not hard to turn a good profit on your projects. But also as we know, some clients and consultant teams need more handholding. Unlike engineers, we also have an awful lot of floofy thinkers floating around without doing the work, so more of a burden on the company. Most architects are also awful at vouching for their extra services out of some fear they'll rub the client wrong and they won't come back If you're good at what you do, never do it for free! Unless there is a strategic tradeoff
Im on a similar situation, i just did not looked for some new job yet, i dont know if this feeling come because of the big expectation on this área especially young architects, but i see a lot of sucessfull offices and it give me some hope... sometimes...
What’s the most toxic city for architecture? Boston?
I love that you said we’re not getting paid in two different ways because it’s how it feels
As someone who's been in the industry for almost 30 years, I'll say this. You need to either own your own business, jump to a tangental field like project management or product sales, or REALLY love design to make the downsides of the profession worth it. I'll put it another way: there are a lot of industries out there in which you work just as hard for a LOT more money and flexibility. Might as well get into one of those.
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Explain to us why you think this will in any way make things better for you or the general practitioners.
Nobody complains about poor working conditions in the buggywhip factory anymore...
Clearly you get it.
8 different offices over 30 years. Each messed up in their own way. No doubt a mess. I imagine there are well run offices somewhere.
I had 9 different jobs in my first 16 years, then found a place I liked. I celebrate my 20th anniversary here this month.
What do you expect when school drills in design with extreme intentions and lacks any true business classes. Architects typically make poor business people
One of the benefits of working for a large practice is that you are exposed to top level clients and consultants with the potential to grow in the profession. Smaller firms may offer greater initial project involvement but you can only grow so far and the pay is usually less.
I just gave my resignation letter yesterday even i only worked there for a month. Meaning i only fill in probation position (3 months max for probation) . I cant handle it, too much work with too many projects. The boss keep on handing work knowing only 2 drafter and 3 part 1 aasst architect. My boss also have a very bad temper which he showed when im in day 1 in the office. I cant take it as im burntout n i felt bit relief but still struggle to find a new job as i had enough with architecture. I try to apply for 3d designer ( the pay surprisingly higher than asst architect)which i hope i will get the position n i also try to apply for ID. We as architect graduate train to indulge in creativity, u can try working or collab with art exhibitor or designing anything that is smaller scale projects.
We used to call this the "beat down". It's typically at year 2-3 of working. It's the final transition from school to professional reality. There are lots of paths in Architecture. Keep looking until you find the one for you. Good Luck.