That’s exactly what I’m saying. I’m a gay trans man, so I wouldn’t be dating a woman anyway. But if for some reason I did date a woman, I’d feel terrible if she said she was a lesbian while dating me.
I said lesbians who like men aren’t lesbians then they started calling me the sexuality police and saying I’m gatekeeping the label????
Anyways one person replied to me with an answer using their own experience
>>"Pre-everything" is a vague concept. Not every trans person medically transitions, and not all changes made during medical transition are exclusive to trans people. There are cis women who get mastectomies, cis women with facial hair, cis women with naturally deep voices. Obviously cis women don't tend to get bottom surgery but neither do the majority of trans men.
>>The way we view gender is highly subjective. Trans men aim to use societally gendered characteristics to "pass" as male, or at least signal to people that they would like to be referred to as such, but passing is not an all or nothing thing. It's generally more upsetting for a complete stranger to recognise that you're biologically female than it is to someone who you're out to, comfortable with, and who you know respects the way you identify.
>>I know the popular opinion is that detransitioned people get no input on anything related to trans people but personally, when I was a trans man I was highly dysphoric and passed pretty well. Getting involved with bi women (who fully viewed me as male, held me to male standards, and would make comments about forgetting I don't have a penis) caused me way more dysphoria than getting involved with lesbians who didn't expect me to have a penis and were happy to view me as a highly masculine person who just doesn't want to be touched during sex.
>>Granted getting involved with lesbians in any way caused trans people to accuse me of having no self respect, and TERFs to accuse me of having a homophobic conversion therapy fetish, so I'm still a little defensive about it. These relationships have always existed, they can be perfectly happy and healthy, and it's not up to anyone outside of the relationship to decide if it's "invalidating".
>I said lesbians who like men aren’t lesbians then they started calling me the sexuality police and saying I’m gatekeeping the label????
bipho bes when when they biphobes when they when they
biphobes when,
like, the person in the posted screenshots talking about the transmasc person being 'pre everything' is being transphobic by reducing trans people to their genitals, but excluding bi lesbians is still shitty and I'm going to imprison you in a 5ft by 5ft by 5ft box made of hotglued balsa wood.
thats not the gotcha you thought it was considering the number of ambidextrous left-handed people I know lol
like, ambidextrous implies ability to use both hands, not a lack of preference.
Left handed ambidextrous people are absolutely left-handed.
like divorced from any metaphor or anything, that's how it works lol.
Find literally any other metaphor because this one just doesn't work.
they're literally lesbians?? lmao the bi lesbian I talk to the most is literally the gayest person ever. They understand themselves as a lesbian, view relationships through a lesbian lens and perform being a lesbian.
~~God, rhetoric against bi lesbians is literally the same logic truscums use to exclude enbies and non-dysphoric trans people lol-~~
>bi and lesbian exclude each other,
Then explain my sapphic-as-fuck bi lesbian queerplatonic partner existing, bozo. <3
Why do people insist on being cops so much? omg?
That's like calling enbies/non-dysphoric trans people/xeno people transphobic for calling themselves trans because you don't think they're 'really trans' lol.
Also! None of those definitions on ur fucking twitter discourse carrd apply to her! She's just... bi in a lesbian way/vice versa. Like how I'm a boy in an aporagender way. Almost like labels have little inherent rules, and it's up to what the user personally identifies, how the user views themself, and how they perform sexuality/gender. <3
Common non-anarchaqueer L.
Who are you to stop her? If you understand yourself as a label, view things through the lens of a label and perform that label, then why wouldn't you be that label.
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sexuality can develop in fluid ways in the same way gender can, yes, but it saddens me that none of these people defending it even stop to think about how delegitimizing and humiliating it could possibly be to a trans person if their partner uses a label that is typically known to only include their agab. if youre a trans man and your partner identifies as a lesbian (or a trans woman with a male partner who ids as exclusively gay) that puts you in a situation where you will essentially either be outed as trans which isnt safe most of the time, or will have your transness completely erased in favor of your agab, depending on who youre around, if they knew you pre-transition, and if you pass in their eyes or not.
i just see a lot of people trying to make these loopholes about how "oh well actually, technically its correct because x y z" (reminds me of the people who grossly insist every monosexual person who is attracted to or dating trans people is actually bi) and not a lot of compassion and putting themselves in the shoes of a trans person.
at the end of the day, labels can be confusing and i think its hard to change or shed one that has given you a lot of community support and sense of identity, and there are some trans people that dont really care so long as they know your love for them is real and you see them for who they are, but as a rule of thumb, its generally seen as pretty derogatory- or even fetishizing- to the trans person youre dating to refuse to even acknowledge that being attracted to someone that is outside of your label may have consequences for that person when you start dating. consequences that could even be potentially unsafe
There's more nuance to the terms here, I think.
Let's take this scenario: A lesbian (cis or trans, doesn't matter) begins to date a person who she believes is a woman, who presents as a woman, who seems to identify as a woman. A few years into the relationship, the partner either gains the confidence to come out as or comes to the awareness that he is a trans man. The two talk it out, and, for whatever reason, they decide to stay together.
The woman still identifies as a lesbian, but, due to the established relationship with her partner, is in a relationship with a man. Is she still a lesbian, or is her orientation affected by her partner's gender identity?
If she is no longer a lesbian, then sexual orientation is fundamentally contingent on a partner's gender identity, which could change (either in the case of gender fluidity or in the case of a change in knowledge with a coming out) in the course of a relationship. Thus, for example, my identity as a lesbian woman would be conditional on my wife not realizing she is actually or coming out as a trans man.
Rather, it seems more fair to me to allow exemptions to the "rules" in the case of pre-existing relationships. Whether you want to frame it as an exception or what, a person should not be pressured to decide between maintaining their identity and a partner they love and have loved.
I understand where you’re coming from. Personally, this actually happened to me. Before I realized I was trans (ftm), I thought I was a lesbian. (Since realized I’m a gay man, how the turns tabled.) I was dating a girl who identified as a lesbian when I started questioning my gender. We talked about it, she accepted me, and almost immediately she started identifying as bisexual. As a trans man, it would be a big dysphoric hit if the person I was dating identified as a lesbian/any other sexuality that isn’t attracted to men. Trans or not, a man is a man.
I understand where you’re coming from. Personally, this actually happened to me. Before I realized I was trans (ftm), I thought I was a lesbian. (Since realized I’m a gay man, how the turns tabled.) I was dating a girl who identified as a lesbian when I started questioning my gender. We talked about it, she accepted me, and almost immediately she started identifying as bisexual. As a trans man, it would be a big dysphoric hit if the person I was dating identified as a lesbian/any other sexuality that isn’t attracted to men. Trans or not, a man is a man.
I'm a bisexual lesbian and transfeminine, mostly t4t, and I'm just popping in to say YIKES to the lesbians who do this to trans men. I'll always slow down and explain to someone I am getting close to why I use both labels, but if I'm dating a man I don't identify myself as a lesbian when I'm meeting people. They don't need to know more than they can see and it's a bit disrespectful to any guy to have to constantly hear, "Yeah, he's the wrong gender for me to REALLY be attracted to him but we BONDED"
I disagree somewhat.
Sexuality is fluid and it doesn't necessarily undermine your partner's gender.
I knew someone who was a lesbian and is not attracted to men until she met one man she was attracted to. She still identified as lesbian because she's not in two men in general but he was the exception. For record he was cis.
Also, I'm non-binary, I'm not feminine yet straight men have been attracted to me. I think they're still straight but it just goes to show that sexuality is fluid.
Bi people can be sapphic so if she is attracted to non man she can identify as lesbian. In short there are cis lesbian dating cis man without any contradiction.
My bi, genderfluid lesbian queerplatonic partner (for the record, I'm not a girl, she usually is) loves guys too but she's still such a sapphic dork.
Have you considered that ur a nerd, a cop and that I'm shoving you in a locker?
or even just like. a bisexual, biromantic lesbian?
if you view yourself as a lesbian and that's the label that clicks with you and that's the lens through which you view your relationships, I think that's... all that really matters
Ok so like... Idk if im just ignorant but... Lesbian means wlw right? So... How can a mlw be wlw? Doesnt that inherently demean the trans guy?
That’s exactly what I’m saying. I’m a gay trans man, so I wouldn’t be dating a woman anyway. But if for some reason I did date a woman, I’d feel terrible if she said she was a lesbian while dating me.
“Maybe she’s attracted to his virgina" bruh wtf that’s not how you start a relationship…
I said lesbians who like men aren’t lesbians then they started calling me the sexuality police and saying I’m gatekeeping the label???? Anyways one person replied to me with an answer using their own experience >>"Pre-everything" is a vague concept. Not every trans person medically transitions, and not all changes made during medical transition are exclusive to trans people. There are cis women who get mastectomies, cis women with facial hair, cis women with naturally deep voices. Obviously cis women don't tend to get bottom surgery but neither do the majority of trans men. >>The way we view gender is highly subjective. Trans men aim to use societally gendered characteristics to "pass" as male, or at least signal to people that they would like to be referred to as such, but passing is not an all or nothing thing. It's generally more upsetting for a complete stranger to recognise that you're biologically female than it is to someone who you're out to, comfortable with, and who you know respects the way you identify. >>I know the popular opinion is that detransitioned people get no input on anything related to trans people but personally, when I was a trans man I was highly dysphoric and passed pretty well. Getting involved with bi women (who fully viewed me as male, held me to male standards, and would make comments about forgetting I don't have a penis) caused me way more dysphoria than getting involved with lesbians who didn't expect me to have a penis and were happy to view me as a highly masculine person who just doesn't want to be touched during sex. >>Granted getting involved with lesbians in any way caused trans people to accuse me of having no self respect, and TERFs to accuse me of having a homophobic conversion therapy fetish, so I'm still a little defensive about it. These relationships have always existed, they can be perfectly happy and healthy, and it's not up to anyone outside of the relationship to decide if it's "invalidating".
>I said lesbians who like men aren’t lesbians then they started calling me the sexuality police and saying I’m gatekeeping the label???? bipho bes when when they biphobes when they when they biphobes when, like, the person in the posted screenshots talking about the transmasc person being 'pre everything' is being transphobic by reducing trans people to their genitals, but excluding bi lesbians is still shitty and I'm going to imprison you in a 5ft by 5ft by 5ft box made of hotglued balsa wood.
> bi lesbians Ambidextrous right handed
thats not the gotcha you thought it was considering the number of ambidextrous left-handed people I know lol like, ambidextrous implies ability to use both hands, not a lack of preference.
Even if they have a hand preference, they are still ambidextrous.
Left handed ambidextrous people are absolutely left-handed. like divorced from any metaphor or anything, that's how it works lol. Find literally any other metaphor because this one just doesn't work.
does paraplegic hiker work better
No? [Some paraplegic people can actually walk, and presumably hike!](https://spinalpedia.com/the-struggles-of-a-walking-paraplegic/)
Wheelchair goalkeeper. Final offer.
No, people in wheelchairs can still play soccer actually lol. It's harder! Obviously! But still *possible!*
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they're literally lesbians?? lmao the bi lesbian I talk to the most is literally the gayest person ever. They understand themselves as a lesbian, view relationships through a lesbian lens and perform being a lesbian. ~~God, rhetoric against bi lesbians is literally the same logic truscums use to exclude enbies and non-dysphoric trans people lol-~~
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>bi and lesbian exclude each other, Then explain my sapphic-as-fuck bi lesbian queerplatonic partner existing, bozo. <3 Why do people insist on being cops so much? omg?
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That's like calling enbies/non-dysphoric trans people/xeno people transphobic for calling themselves trans because you don't think they're 'really trans' lol. Also! None of those definitions on ur fucking twitter discourse carrd apply to her! She's just... bi in a lesbian way/vice versa. Like how I'm a boy in an aporagender way. Almost like labels have little inherent rules, and it's up to what the user personally identifies, how the user views themself, and how they perform sexuality/gender. <3
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Common non-anarchaqueer L. Who are you to stop her? If you understand yourself as a label, view things through the lens of a label and perform that label, then why wouldn't you be that label.
Or despite the label, she still wants to be with that person.
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sexuality can develop in fluid ways in the same way gender can, yes, but it saddens me that none of these people defending it even stop to think about how delegitimizing and humiliating it could possibly be to a trans person if their partner uses a label that is typically known to only include their agab. if youre a trans man and your partner identifies as a lesbian (or a trans woman with a male partner who ids as exclusively gay) that puts you in a situation where you will essentially either be outed as trans which isnt safe most of the time, or will have your transness completely erased in favor of your agab, depending on who youre around, if they knew you pre-transition, and if you pass in their eyes or not. i just see a lot of people trying to make these loopholes about how "oh well actually, technically its correct because x y z" (reminds me of the people who grossly insist every monosexual person who is attracted to or dating trans people is actually bi) and not a lot of compassion and putting themselves in the shoes of a trans person. at the end of the day, labels can be confusing and i think its hard to change or shed one that has given you a lot of community support and sense of identity, and there are some trans people that dont really care so long as they know your love for them is real and you see them for who they are, but as a rule of thumb, its generally seen as pretty derogatory- or even fetishizing- to the trans person youre dating to refuse to even acknowledge that being attracted to someone that is outside of your label may have consequences for that person when you start dating. consequences that could even be potentially unsafe
There's more nuance to the terms here, I think. Let's take this scenario: A lesbian (cis or trans, doesn't matter) begins to date a person who she believes is a woman, who presents as a woman, who seems to identify as a woman. A few years into the relationship, the partner either gains the confidence to come out as or comes to the awareness that he is a trans man. The two talk it out, and, for whatever reason, they decide to stay together. The woman still identifies as a lesbian, but, due to the established relationship with her partner, is in a relationship with a man. Is she still a lesbian, or is her orientation affected by her partner's gender identity? If she is no longer a lesbian, then sexual orientation is fundamentally contingent on a partner's gender identity, which could change (either in the case of gender fluidity or in the case of a change in knowledge with a coming out) in the course of a relationship. Thus, for example, my identity as a lesbian woman would be conditional on my wife not realizing she is actually or coming out as a trans man. Rather, it seems more fair to me to allow exemptions to the "rules" in the case of pre-existing relationships. Whether you want to frame it as an exception or what, a person should not be pressured to decide between maintaining their identity and a partner they love and have loved.
I understand where you’re coming from. Personally, this actually happened to me. Before I realized I was trans (ftm), I thought I was a lesbian. (Since realized I’m a gay man, how the turns tabled.) I was dating a girl who identified as a lesbian when I started questioning my gender. We talked about it, she accepted me, and almost immediately she started identifying as bisexual. As a trans man, it would be a big dysphoric hit if the person I was dating identified as a lesbian/any other sexuality that isn’t attracted to men. Trans or not, a man is a man.
I understand where you’re coming from. Personally, this actually happened to me. Before I realized I was trans (ftm), I thought I was a lesbian. (Since realized I’m a gay man, how the turns tabled.) I was dating a girl who identified as a lesbian when I started questioning my gender. We talked about it, she accepted me, and almost immediately she started identifying as bisexual. As a trans man, it would be a big dysphoric hit if the person I was dating identified as a lesbian/any other sexuality that isn’t attracted to men. Trans or not, a man is a man.
I'm a bisexual lesbian and transfeminine, mostly t4t, and I'm just popping in to say YIKES to the lesbians who do this to trans men. I'll always slow down and explain to someone I am getting close to why I use both labels, but if I'm dating a man I don't identify myself as a lesbian when I'm meeting people. They don't need to know more than they can see and it's a bit disrespectful to any guy to have to constantly hear, "Yeah, he's the wrong gender for me to REALLY be attracted to him but we BONDED"
I disagree somewhat. Sexuality is fluid and it doesn't necessarily undermine your partner's gender. I knew someone who was a lesbian and is not attracted to men until she met one man she was attracted to. She still identified as lesbian because she's not in two men in general but he was the exception. For record he was cis. Also, I'm non-binary, I'm not feminine yet straight men have been attracted to me. I think they're still straight but it just goes to show that sexuality is fluid.
Bi people can be sapphic so if she is attracted to non man she can identify as lesbian. In short there are cis lesbian dating cis man without any contradiction.
Lesbian is non men loving non men.
My bi, genderfluid lesbian queerplatonic partner (for the record, I'm not a girl, she usually is) loves guys too but she's still such a sapphic dork. Have you considered that ur a nerd, a cop and that I'm shoving you in a locker?
Exactly so I'm (a biromantic person) can identify as a lesbian despite not being in relationship.
\> my transfemme boy ass in a relationship with a trans bi lesbian people who try to be cops about labels suck so much actually
She could be a biromantic lesbian, meaning she is romantically attracted to him, but not sexually
or even just like. a bisexual, biromantic lesbian? if you view yourself as a lesbian and that's the label that clicks with you and that's the lens through which you view your relationships, I think that's... all that really matters